Mad Men - General Discussion

[txhorns79]

On 1/5/2020 at 7:40 PM, voiceover said:

The Gene sl was one of Betty's worst moments.  William had been his caretaker, ffs.  I mean, her brother had his dick moments, but his point that Betty conveniently forgot about  always fighting with their father was a twist I didn't see coming, but made perfect sense.  

I think the issue was William was essentially using Gene as a way to occupy Gene's house.  It makes more sense later on when William tries to buy Betty's share of the house based on the price Gene paid for the place in the '20s!  If William had been living there, the pressure on Betty to sell to him would have been much greater and she could have lost out on part of her inheritance. 

[Old Man Neil]

The Oxford English Dictionary Word of the Day today is Swellegant. 

 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think the issue was William was essentially using Gene as a way to occupy Gene's house.  It makes more sense later on when William tries to buy Betty's share of the house based on the price Gene paid for the place in the '20s!  If William had been living there, the pressure on Betty to sell to him would have been much greater and she could have lost out on part of her inheritance. 

Yeah, the only man who actually is a caretaker to an aging parent themselves is Pete when he's living with his mom. Gene had a wife who was his primary caretaker, didn't he? I definitely thought it was more about the house for William than their father.

[txhorns79]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Gene had a wife who was his primary caretaker, didn't he?

I think she abandoned him when his dementia (or dementia-like behavior) became too much. 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think she abandoned him when his dementia (or dementia-like behavior) became too much. 

I definitely remember that, but was there a long gap between her leaving him and this fight with William? I guess I mostly think of Gene in that ep where little Gene is conceived and the wife is still there at that point. And iirc Gene is dead by the time Baby Gene is born, right?

Not that I think there's such a huge difference in parental love/respect between Betty and William. I just remembered him as seeming to want the house while Betty was more in denial about his condition and having her own demands.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I definitely remember that, but was there a long gap between her leaving him and this fight with William? I guess I mostly think of Gene in that ep where little Gene is conceived and the wife is still there at that point. And iirc Gene is dead by the time Baby Gene is born, right?

I think there was a long gap.  From what I recall, he had tried to hide that Gloria had left. 

You are correct that he died prior to Gene's birth. 

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think there was a long gap.  From what I recall, he had tried to hide that Gloria had left. 

You are correct that he died prior to Gene's birth. 

Ah! Forgot about that. Eventually I'll get up to re-watching that whole story. I didn't even really remember what the situation was that led to Gene living with the Drapers, much less what William was trying to do.

Of course, when William's taking care of Gene it's probably mostly his wife if Pete's family is anything to go by. LOL.

[Umbelina]

On 2/23/2020 at 7:33 PM, sistermagpie said:

Ah! Forgot about that. Eventually I'll get up to re-watching that whole story. I didn't even really remember what the situation was that led to Gene living with the Drapers, much less what William was trying to do.

Of course, when William's taking care of Gene it's probably mostly his wife if Pete's family is anything to go by. LOL.

William's wife was wonderful, even though Betty hated her, she was actually caring for Gene, and about him

William just wanted Gene in a home, and yes, he definitely wanted that house for himself.   He treated Gene with contempt really.  He probably had good reasons for disliking his father both before and after his illness, but we never saw them.

Don saw how upset his pregnant wife was, and saw that William was taking advantage of her, and personally couldn't stand him either, so he threw them all out, after taking control and solving it, which included allowing Gene to live with them, keep the car, and not "give" his house to William.  Betty was going out for KFC I think, to feed everyone, and Don stopped that as well.

I really liked William's wife though, she was kind to Gene, and to Betty.  Betty treated her like shit.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

William's wife was wonderful, even though Betty hated her, she was actually caring for Gene, and about him

Poor woman was probably the only person with the right priorities in the whole story! Even his wife didn't seem to feel any responsibility for taking care of the guy, which is pretty bad. I remember enjoying Don foil William's plans.

It's funny, when I think of Gene the first thing that comes to mind is when he's happy that Bobby is playing with the helmet he had from a soldier he killed in WWI and Don says, "Bobby, it's a dead man's hat. Take it off."

I always liked Don's attitude about war in general, how he never played into the whole "war makes you a man" thing.

[Old Man Neil]

On 3/5/2020 at 6:27 PM, sistermagpie said:

I always liked Don's attitude about war in general, how he never played into the whole "war makes you a man" thing.

In Don's case it made him another man. 

Joking aside, it is admirable that he didn't cover up with phony bravado. I like that about him, too. 

[VCRTracking]

On 3/5/2020 at 5:27 PM, sistermagpie said:

Poor woman was probably the only person with the right priorities in the whole story! Even his wife didn't seem to feel any responsibility for taking care of the guy, which is pretty bad. I remember enjoying Don foil William's plans.

It's funny, when I think of Gene the first thing that comes to mind is when he's happy that Bobby is playing with the helmet he had from a soldier he killed in WWI and Don says, "Bobby, it's a dead man's hat. Take it off."

I always liked Don's attitude about war in general, how he never played into the whole "war makes you a man" thing.

One of my favorite moments in the last season was when Don was in Oklahoma and he finds himself at a fundraiser surrounded by old veterans of different wars. After the party they tell combat stories. Not proud, heroic ones, but awful horrific ones they never tell their friends and family and that only fellow soldiers would understand. Don reveals how he accidentally killed his CO(but not how he took his identity) and the other veterans don't judge him. Of course it all goes sour later when they think he stole their money and beat him up. Tough scene but I was a little distracted by one of them being Max Gail("Wojo" from Barney Miller) and another played by Larry Cedar from Deadwood and Square One TV!

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Old Man Neil]

Don's advice to Sal seems particularly relevant these days. 

Limit Your Exposure. 

[Cementhead]

I just finished watching this series for the very first time on Netflix yesterday afternoon.  I am still trying to digest it all a day later.  I described this show as 'a journey' to my husband, who didn't watch it with me.  It was a slow burn for me and I didn't really feel invested until Episode #10 of the 1st season.  I went on to enjoy every moment I spent with these characters; especially Peggy Olsen, and I was grateful for the hours worth of distraction.

I couldn't wait to come here to see what other viewers thought of the last season; namely the last episode.  I was really disappointed in both.  I knew that the finale ended with the famous Coke commercial because of course, when the series ended back in 2015 it made the news and was a big deal at the time. 

And so I had what I thought was a logical scenario in my mind that would get the show to that ending the entire time I was watching.  I always assumed that in the end, Don comes up with the most successful and famous ad campaign of all time.  But in my scenario, it most certainly did not involve separating Don from the rest of the cast whom  I was also greatly invested in to send him on a road trip to meet up with a bunch of random nobody characters who meant nothing to me other than to suck up precious screen time that could have been spent on the characters that mattered the most to me as a viewer.  I will also include Diana in this category.  Every second spent on Diana was a second squandered and I hated every minute of that story line.

So, my question to you all, the viewers who watched this show in real time is this:  How did the last episode go over with fans at the time?  Was it loved?  Or hated?  I plan on going on a google search to read up on it but wanted to ask you guys here. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Cementhead said:

I just finished watching this series for the very first time on Netflix yesterday afternoon.  I am still trying to digest it all a day later.  I described this show as 'a journey' to my husband, who didn't watch it with me.  It was a slow burn for me and I didn't really feel invested until Episode #10 of the 1st season.  I went on to enjoy every moment I spent with these characters; especially Peggy Olsen, and I was grateful for the hours worth of distraction.

I couldn't wait to come here to see what other viewers thought of the last season; namely the last episode.  I was really disappointed in both.  I knew that the finale ended with the famous Coke commercial because of course, when the series ended back in 2015 it made the news and was a big deal at the time. 

And so I had what I thought was a logical scenario in my mind that would get the show to that ending the entire time I was watching.  I always assumed that in the end, Don comes up with the most successful and famous ad campaign of all time.  But in my scenario, it most certainly did not involve separating Don from the rest of the cast whom  I was also greatly invested in to send him on a road trip to meet up with a bunch of random nobody characters who meant nothing to me other than to suck up precious screen time that could have been spent on the characters that mattered the most to me as a viewer.  I will also include Diana in this category.  Every second spent on Diana was a second squandered and I hated every minute of that story line.

So, my question to you all, the viewers who watched this show in real time is this:  How did the last episode go over with fans at the time?  Was it loved?  Or hated?  I plan on going on a google search to read up on it but wanted to ask you guys here. 

Back when the finale aired I was not a member of this forum, I was a lurker on the old Television Without Pity boards.  I want to say that the finale was well received over there.  The big thing is that Don doesn't change in the end.  He tries, but just cannot do it.  I was and still am fine with that.  He thinks he wants to change and he goes off on these journeys of self-discovery almost like clockwork.  This was established back in season two, so it wasn't out of character for Don.  

Many viewers did not like the addition of Diana, but I find that happens in almost every show where new characters are introduced in the final season.  Everyone seems to want the final season to focus on "their" characters.  I do wonder how Diana would have been received if she had appeared in an earlier season.  I don't see her being that different than Midge, or Rachel Menken, or Sally's teacher, or Dr. Fay, etc.I can't really fault Matt Weiner for adding another woman for Don to sleep with in the final season.  It's what Don does.  I personally could have done with less Meghan in the final season, and the less said about Matt Weiner's insistence of shoving his son down our throats the better.  Glen was such a useless character and had no reason showing up in the final few episodes, but Matt had to shove his son in there one last time.  

[Cementhead]

43 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

and the less said about Matt Weiner's insistence of shoving his son down our throats the better.  Glen was such a useless character and had no reason showing up in the final few episodes, but Matt had to shove his son in there one last time.  

Mind.  Blown.  😲  I had no idea this was his son.  Thank you for sharing this information!  You just explained his existence for me.  This kid was a horrible, creepy actor.  And the older he got, the worse his wooden acting became.  And he was dead behind the eyes.  I kept waiting for him to turn into a serial killer or something. 

And thank you for sharing your perspective on Don and his behaviour in the last episode and why he went on that journey.  The more I give it some thought, I see why things happened as they did.  And for letting me know what viewers were feeling & thinking at the time.  Appreciate it! 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Cementhead

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Cementhead said:

I just finished watching this series for the very first time on Netflix yesterday afternoon.  I am still trying to digest it all a day later.  I described this show as 'a journey' to my husband, who didn't watch it with me.  It was a slow burn for me and I didn't really feel invested until Episode #10 of the 1st season.  I went on to enjoy every moment I spent with these characters; especially Peggy Olsen, and I was grateful for the hours worth of distraction.

I couldn't wait to come here to see what other viewers thought of the last season; namely the last episode.  I was really disappointed in both.  I knew that the finale ended with the famous Coke commercial because of course, when the series ended back in 2015 it made the news and was a big deal at the time. 

And so I had what I thought was a logical scenario in my mind that would get the show to that ending the entire time I was watching.  I always assumed that in the end, Don comes up with the most successful and famous ad campaign of all time.  But in my scenario, it most certainly did not involve separating Don from the rest of the cast whom  I was also greatly invested in to send him on a road trip to meet up with a bunch of random nobody characters who meant nothing to me other than to suck up precious screen time that could have been spent on the characters that mattered the most to me as a viewer.  I will also include Diana in this category.  Every second spent on Diana was a second squandered and I hated every minute of that story line.

So, my question to you all, the viewers who watched this show in real time is this:  How did the last episode go over with fans at the time?  Was it loved?  Or hated?  I plan on going on a google search to read up on it but wanted to ask you guys here. 

You are definitely not alone in your reaction. Everything you said here was said at the time--not that everyone agreed, of course, but the frustration of Don on his own and randos taking away time from characters we wanted to be with definitely came up a lot!

My own feeling was that I really really loved the end of the show, but did not care for the last episode much. That, is, it wasn't that I thought the show had a great ending in terms of ending its story the way those last eps went down, but the ending in a general way felt really hopeful to me. It felt like I was seeing the end of a chapter of the characters' lives, but the beginning of the next. So I've been able to go back and thoroughly enjoy the series again and again. It's a total favorite of mine--plus there's a lot of great foreshadowing moments when you watch it again.

[Old Man Neil]

The Robert Altman movie Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean is on Amazon Prime for $3.99. The reason I mention it here is that one of the characters used the expression "a hoot and a half." The only other time I've heard that line was from Shelly in Out of Town. 

[Guest]

I just found out Mad Men leaves Netflix next month. I’m not sure I’ll be able to do my planned rewatch by then!

[caitmcg]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

I just found out Mad Men leaves Netflix next month. I’m not sure I’ll be able to do my planned rewatch by then!

It's currently available on Amazon video for $6.99 per season to own, if you feel like dropping 50 bucks (that’s if you’re in the US, anyway).

 

[Pickles Aplenty]

I've been rewatching in quarantine, and I wanted to say that I don't think Jessica Paré is a bad actress, at all.  I know that was the opinion of the majority when the show first aired, but I never shared it.  I get who Megan is, and I think JP played her well.  I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I wanted to say it, again.  I always feel this need to stick up for Megan/JP.  I know I can't be the only one. 😉

[LydiaE]

I really enjoyed Megan’s New York, married storylines. The actress is striking and made the character likable. Her entrance as Don’s wife was just too rushed to be believable and her California storylines + acting were abysmal. 

No matter how many times I rewatch, I always enjoy the Freddy Rumsen character. Love that actor.

[txhorns79]

17 hours ago, LydiaE said:

I really enjoyed Megan’s New York, married storylines. The actress is striking and made the character likable. Her entrance as Don’s wife was just too rushed to be believable and her California storylines + acting were abysmal. 

I didn't mind how quickly Don proposed to Megan.  It felt entirely in character for him.  I did feel like that the writers weren't completely sure what to do with Megan once she quit SCDP.  She goes from being a massive presence in the 5th season to someone much more secondary in Season 6 & 7.  I did appreciate that she wasn't just a variation of Betty, but I didn't really relate to her as a character once it became all about her acting struggles.         

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't mind how quickly Don proposed to Megan.  It felt entirely in character for him.  I did feel like that the writers weren't completely sure what to do with Megan once she quit SCDP.  She goes from being a massive presence in the 5th season to someone much more secondary in Season 6 & 7.  I did appreciate that she wasn't just a variation of Betty, but I didn't really relate to her as a character once it became all about her acting struggles.         

In a way it was almost too much mirroring what was going on with Don. He was obsessed with her in S5 when he thought she was making him perfect, then once that wasn't true any more she retreated into this puzzling presence that didn't really fit in his life. He was as bemused by her acting storylines as the audience was. It just seemed very different from Betty (though many thought she should have disappeared after the divorce as well so MMV) because, imo, her story was still centered around the same areas as the show. Betty, Joan and Peggy were very different characters but there was something tying their stories together in ways that didn't happen with Megan for me.

[Guest]

I never minded Megan as much as most fans. I know a lot of fans (here or TWOP? Unsure on the timeline) thought she was disingenuous for saying she wanted to learn about advertising when her dream was really to be an actress, but I thought that was fairly realistic. A lot of people have dream careers that they realize they can’t have and move on happily to a second, third, fourth choice. But then when she had a wealthy husband and didn’t have to worry about things like actually making a living, she decided to give her big dream a chance. 
 

I think her character got worse as the series went on, but I think Don’s treatment of her did as well, and that was why.

[Ohiopirate02]

 

4 hours ago, deaja said:

I never minded Megan as much as most fans. I know a lot of fans (here or TWOP? Unsure on the timeline) thought she was disingenuous for saying she wanted to learn about advertising when her dream was really to be an actress, but I thought that was fairly realistic. A lot of people have dream careers that they realize they can’t have and move on happily to a second, third, fourth choice. But then when she had a wealthy husband and didn’t have to worry about things like actually making a living, she decided to give her big dream a chance. 
 

I think her character got worse as the series went on, but I think Don’s treatment of her did as well, and that was why.

I'm currently rewatching this, and just started season 6.  Knowing how it all ends helps to see the nuance in the characters I didn't catch when it aired.  Megan is not bothering me as much because I can now see how badly Don treats her from the jump.  Don makes the same mistakes with Megan as he did with Betty, and it is interesting to see how she reacts differently.  Because Don never really confronted why his marriage to Betty fell apart.  It was easier for him to think Betty left him over the whole Dick Whitman thing and not his controlling behavior or his affairs.  Even then Betty was willing to overlook the affairs as long as they happened in Manhattan (or on a business trip) and did not interfere with their life.  

I see why Don wanted to marry Megan and thought himself in love with her.  Don is a shit dad and needed a partner to take care of his kids when he had them.  Dude couldn't even handle every other weekend.  Then Don heard Megan wanted to try being a copywriter, and he envisioned a future where his work-wife was actually his wife.  They get married and he just dumps Megan into Peggy's lap to deal with.  Of course, Megan worked only when Don wanted her to work.  I get why Megan wanted an out from that work environment.  I do think the groundwork was laid in seasons 4 and 5 that Megan was not completely honest with what she wanted.  A running theme of this show is that what you think you want is not really what you want.  Megan put aside her childish dreams of being an actress, but she still wants it.  She was lying to herself and Don in Tomorrowland when she said she had given up on that dream.  I do think, though, that a better actress would have been able to portray this clearer.  

Unpopular opinion here, I think Megan is just as childish and immature if not more as Betty.  I know Don needs to be called out for his controlling behavior, but her hissy fit in the Howard Johnsons was not the way to do it.  

[Guest]

I think one thing that made Mad Men so compelling is there wasn't really any good character. They were all highly flawed, most in different ways, and some worse than others. But unlike a lot of shows, you didn't have the writers trying to justify anyone's bad behavior (most of the time.... there were things I felt the writers continually glossed over).

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I think one thing that made Mad Men so compelling is there wasn't really any good character. They were all highly flawed, most in different ways, and some worse than others. But unlike a lot of shows, you didn't have the writers trying to justify anyone's bad behavior (most of the time.... there were things I felt the writers continually glossed over).

One of the things I like about the show is not only are they not afraid to make the characters look bad, they're not afraid to make them look weak, especially the main character, their leading man. Whenever Don's identity theft and desertion is threatened to be exposed, the facade crumbles and it ain't pretty.

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

I think one thing that made Mad Men so compelling is there wasn't really any good character. They were all highly flawed, most in different ways, and some worse than others. But unlike a lot of shows, you didn't have the writers trying to justify anyone's bad behavior (most of the time.... there were things I felt the writers continually glossed over).

Eh, I thought most of the characters on the show were "good" in the sense that none of them appeared inherently bad.  They may have done bad things, but there was no one I could think of who just was a bad person.   

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Eh, I thought most of the characters on the show were "good" in the sense that none of them appeared inherently bad.  They may have done bad things, but there was no one I could think of who just was a bad person.   

Harry Crane was borderline for me.  There's sleaze and then there's Harry.  The way he always had to bring up how Joan got her partnership was pretty shitty.  SCDP would never have happened if it wasn't for Joan and all she brought to the table.  The company was successful because of everything she did on a day-to-day basis, and she deserved a partnership for that alone.  

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, deaja said:

I never minded Megan as much as most fans. I know a lot of fans (here or TWOP? Unsure on the timeline) thought she was disingenuous for saying she wanted to learn about advertising when her dream was really to be an actress, but I thought that was fairly realistic. A lot of people have dream careers that they realize they can’t have and move on happily to a second, third, fourth choice. But then when she had a wealthy husband and didn’t have to worry about things like actually making a living, she decided to give her big dream a chance. 

At the time it surprised me that so many people seemed to think that she was either genuinely into advertising or lying about it when it seemed so clearly laid out to me that she wasn't lying about being into advertising, but also wasn't into it. She was telling the truth in the moment when she said she wanted to be like Don and Peggy, but the fact that she was having sex with Don after barely a minute of Don's lesson about copywriting made it clear that it wasn't real. And when she said she didn't want to be an actress in S4 it seemed like it was telegraphing that yes, she really did. But she didn't think she could be.

But once you don't have to worry about where the show might be going with Megan, she's really fine.

 

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Eh, I thought most of the characters on the show were "good" in the sense that none of them appeared inherently bad.  They may have done bad things, but there was no one I could think of who just was a bad person.   

Yes, only maybe Lou Garner, Jr. seemed to have a taste for cruelty. With everybody else even at their worst they didn't seem like just fundamentally bad people. But the show wasn't afraid to show them being terrible or weak or pathetic in the moment.

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Unpopular opinion here, I think Megan is just as childish and immature if not more as Betty.  I know Don needs to be called out for his controlling behavior, but her hissy fit in the Howard Johnsons was not the way to do it.  

Sometimes it seemed like a lot was made of Megan being so different from Betty, but a lot of it seemed as much about the time she was born into as Megan herself. That is, yes, Megan had no problem speaking bluntly about Don being a cheater, but ultimately there's nothing about the way she handles her marriage to Don (which is much shorter) compared to Betty that's particularly mature, imo. Betty had a more childish affect about her, but Megan's also got a youthfulness about her that other characters don't--like Peggy, who's the same age as Megan. Megan just has more of a co-ed vibe than a little girl vibe.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Eh, I thought most of the characters on the show were "good" in the sense that none of them appeared inherently bad.  They may have done bad things, but there was no one I could think of who just was a bad person.   

I think several of them tipped the scales to being “bad.” They might not have gone out of their way to be evil but they thought only of themselves. Roger falls into that category for me. Sure, he had some redeeming qualities, but the bad qualities far outweighed that.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I think several of them tipped the scales to being “bad.” They might not have gone out of their way to be evil but they thought only of themselves. Roger falls into that category for me. Sure, he had some redeeming qualities, but the bad qualities far outweighed that.

I like Roger solely due to the fact that he was played by John Slattery.   Any other actor, and I would have hated him.  There is just something about the way John reads a line that i find myself laughing when i should be horrified. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I like Roger solely due to the fact that he was played by John Slattery.   Any other actor, and I would have hated him.  There is just something about the way John reads a line that i find myself laughing when i should be horrified. 

I love Roger as a character and a lot of it is that he is played so, so well.

[Guest]

Add to the "bad" list - I think Jim Cutler was a total jerk and didn't really show any moments of humanity to balance it out.  

[LydiaE]

Add Stan to the list of more bad than good. He was randomly supposed to be all nurturing in the last season for convenient plot closure, but, other than his sense of humor, he had no redeeming qualities.

[Pickles Aplenty]

The only character I thought was more bad than good was Lee Garner Jr.  He was predatory.  Actually, I'll put Greg in that category, as well.  Everything was all about Greg and his precious ego, he didn't care about anyone else.  He even abandoned his only child when Joan told him she didn't need him.  That's low.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Billina

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, Billina said:

The only character I thought was more bad than good was Lee Garner Jr.  He was predatory.  Actually, I'll put Greg in that category, as well.  Everything was all about Greg and his precious ego, he didn't care about anyone else.  He even abandoned his only child when Joan told him she didn't need him.  That's low.

Oh god, Greg. He was such a great example of how a weak person can be so dangerous. It was almost scary to think of him married to Joan who was so much more capable--and no surprise that he had no trouble abandoning what he thought was his child.

Two of my favorite lines on the show are Joan summing up Greg. At the end when Roger asks if he knows Kevin isn't his (to explain why he pretends he doesn't exist) Joan just says, "No. He's just a terrible, terrible person."

And then one of my favorite lines ever when she gets rid of him: "I"m glad the army makes you feel like a man. Because I'm sick of trying to do it."

You know he was a total Frank Burns over there.

Also agree on Jim Cutler. I think on Mad Style they even pointed out how he was intentionally dressed and styled as a predator.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, LydiaE said:

Add Stan to the list of more bad than good. He was randomly supposed to be all nurturing in the last season for convenient plot closure, but, other than his sense of humor, he had no redeeming qualities.

In Season 6, (I think?) he was pretty caring to Ginsburg.

I think if we're just doing more bad than good, it's a long list.  But the ones I consider just bad, have little to no good qualities on the show.  It's definitely a YMMV thing.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I hated Stan in season four, but he grew on me.  By the end, I was glad he and Peggy ended up together.  I like seeing little moments on rewatch where their relationship develops in a slow, natural sort of way.  It's a lot different from the couples who get engaged five minutes after meeting each other.

[caitmcg]

Stan's an interesting case, in that they brought him in seemingly with one story in mind (talented, but assholish and of course chauvinistic, with a lot of bluster), but that only worked for so long, especially given that he came in after the boys' club years of Sterling Cooper. So he lost the bluster and was morphed into someone who respected Peggy professionally and personally and had mature relationships with his colleagues.

Harry, on the other hand, started out decent, both professionally and personally, but just curdled as a person during the SCDP years. It’s true that he brought plenty to the firm, but he grew ever more grasping and became an asshole to his colleagues and irredeemably piggish personally.

And speaking of flawed characters, I think Pete was one of the most consistently drawn and complex, start to finish. He could be entitled, jealous, resentful, and manipulative, with a chip on his shoulder, and also competent, innovative, thoughtful, and kind, all of which hewed to the backstory established early on and was reflected in and built on his relationships throughout the show.

[Athena]

11 hours ago, caitmcg said:

And speaking of flawed characters, I think Pete was one of the most consistently drawn and complex, start to finish. He could be entitled, jealous, resentful, and manipulative, with a chip on his shoulder, and also competent, innovative, thoughtful, and kind, all of which hewed to the backstory established early on and was reflected in and built on his relationships throughout the show.

Yes, Pete's arc rivalled Don for being one of the most interesting on the show for me. Pete is such a little shit for so much of the show. Vincent Kartheiser's performance is underrated because he really takes Pete to the edge of being abhorrent. There are many pathetic Pete moments which are played comedically and tragically. Even Pete had predatory moments too, but the acting and writing somehow -- not redeemed exactly -- made the character work. He did have moments of thoughtfulness, sincerity, and he did have business acumen throughout. I was genuinely satisfied for Pete at the end of the show. He had begun to mature and turn a corner. 

[Pickles Aplenty]

I'm just curious, does the link to the archived MM forum on the first page of this thread not work, for anyone else?  I'm up to season seven, and I would love to reread comments about the episodes, but for some reason, it won't work when I click on it. 

[Athena]

1 hour ago, Billina said:

I'm just curious, does the link to the archived MM forum on the first page of this thread not work, for anyone else?  I'm up to season seven, and I would love to reread comments about the episodes, but for some reason, it won't work when I click on it. 

Sadly, all the old "M" forums were deleted in an update awhile back. 

[sistermagpie]

On 5/28/2020 at 9:04 AM, Athena said:

Yes, Pete's arc rivalled Don for being one of the most interesting on the show for me. Pete is such a little shit for so much of the show. Vincent Kartheiser's performance is underrated because he really takes Pete to the edge of being abhorrent. There are many pathetic Pete moments which are played comedically and tragically. Even Pete had predatory moments too, but the acting and writing somehow -- not redeemed exactly -- made the character work. He did have moments of thoughtfulness, sincerity, and he did have business acumen throughout. I was genuinely satisfied for Pete at the end of the show. He had begun to mature and turn a corner. 

I often got frustrated by people, including some reviewers, who seemed to go out of their way to interpret all of Pete's actions in the shallowest way to make him look bad even when it was obviously not what was going on. Like arguing that any time he said something supportive of the Civil Rights movement he was actually...not being supportive of the Civil Rights movement because he was awful and therefore must always be racist. Or generally assuming that because he was so awful he didn't have any real emotions, which was like the opposite of what the character was about.

Edited May 30, 2020 by sistermagpie

[txhorns79]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:32 PM, caitmcg said:

Harry, on the other hand, started out decent, both professionally and personally, but just curdled as a person during the SCDP years. It’s true that he brought plenty to the firm, but he grew ever more grasping and became an asshole to his colleagues and irredeemably piggish personally.

I always felt like the writers lost interest in the character, hence his personal life being excised from the show (i.e. reduced to occasional mentions of his wife or kids) and the character being given little to do except act like a jerk who was very self important for the few minutes he would appear in a given episode.

On 5/27/2020 at 2:51 PM, deaja said:

In Season 6, (I think?) he was pretty caring to Ginsburg.

They did show him going off with Ginsburg (presumably to the hospital) after Ginsburg had been put on the stretcher following his breakdown in Season 7.    

[sistermagpie]

21 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I always felt like the writers lost interest in the character, hence his personal life being excised from the show (i.e. reduced to occasional mentions of his wife or kids) and the character being given little to do except act like a jerk who was very self important for the few minutes he would appear in a given episode.

 

Wasn't that always what it was? There were a few times when he talked to Jennifer on the phone or we saw her, but he didn't usually get stories about it. The most memorable stories I remember for him is the one in S1 where he sleeps with Hildy and is sleeping in his office (with no scenes of him at home) and--one of my favorite eps--where he helps out Paul when Paul's with the Hare Krishnas. Other than that he's usually dealing with people in the office throughout.

[caitmcg]

I believe the only time we actually meet Jennifer is at Roger and Jane’s  party of the infamous blackface. Usually when Harry mentions her, he sounds a bit put upon in the early seasons, but then he usually sounded a bit put upon in general. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by caitmcg

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Wasn't that always what it was? There were a few times when he talked to Jennifer on the phone or we saw her, but he didn't usually get stories about it. The most memorable stories I remember for him is the one in S1 where he sleeps with Hildy and is sleeping in his office (with no scenes of him at home) and--one of my favorite eps--where he helps out Paul when Paul's with the Hare Krishnas. Other than that he's usually dealing with people in the office throughout.

IMDB says that Jennifer appeared six different times from season 2 to season 4.  You are right that he had that nice moment in helping Paul, but I guess I would just compare his character to all the other main cast members in terms of development.  I just tend to think he was relegated to being a background character at some point, while the rest of the main cast got a lot more development.  

[Ohiopirate02]

I just finished season 6 today and started season 7.  I forgot how loathsome Ted is.  From stringing Peggy along for months, to showing up at her place telling her he was leaving his wife for her, to his need to constantly one up Don, to his assholish behavior to Don right before the Hersheys pitch, what an asshole and a coward.

[SunnyBeBe]

Taking a stroll down memory lane on this thread.  LONG time MM fan here. It's too bad the old episode threads were lost.  Man, those were intense. This show really caused me to think a lot. I loved it. 

For anyone who was a Jon Hamm fan, I recently watched a movie that he starred in with Natalie Portman. It's from last year, but, is now available on Netflix.  He plays a hunk, but, really smart.  It got bad reviews, but, I rather liked it. It's based on a true story about an incident with NASA.  I started a link here on the Movie forum.