Mad Men - General Discussion

[voiceover]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

they feel like they have to go and watch [Megan]perform. it's like Lee Garner's Christmas party.

Yikes!  Great take.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Don may have meant "You never did really forgive me did you" his one cheating that Betty has earlier found out and that had caused their separation until Betty took him back because of pregancy. But I think that the more likely interpretation is Betty's recent revelation that Don had lied about his past to Betty - eventually lied to her every day.

At least he then says that she is a "spoiled brat" who "had everything". This speaks volumes of Don's concept of marriage: he had given her a house, money, sex, children, leisure - why was it not enough for her?  

Of course Betty didn't cause Don's cheating, It was rather due that Don was never sure that he was loved for himself by Betty - and how could he have been sure when he lied to her all the time and she did know him at all. It was easier for him to be with other women who didn't want as much as a wife - and they could offer escape routes in case, like Rachel.

When Betty found out and Don made his revelation, he at first seems to think that all was after it well. Then she all of sudden wanted divorce and said that she didn't love him any more, but he didn't take it seriously at all - he didn't even try to do anything to help the situation. Then the truth was revealed: she had another man waiting - a constant cheater had been duped by his wife! And underneath it all: it was just what he had been afraid - "Dick" couldn't be loved because he wasn't enough for this golden girl.

He probably didn't realize that he had lost her love much earlier because his unability to emotional intimacy. One can clearly see this lack when one compares Don's conduct with Betty and children during President Kennedy's assassination (his standard sentence "Everything will be ok") with how Trudy begans to understand Pete's feelings, his disgust about collegues's reaction and his decision not to go to the weddding.  

Also during Don marriage with Megan, cheating was rather a symptom and consequence of Don's constant problems, not the reason why also his second marriage failed. 

Don’s go to in life has always been to run away rather than self examine. A better wife would solve all his problems and the only thing that was his fault was the big lie. Megan is better than Betty and he will be honest about Dick Whitman. When his second marriage failed and Anna’s niece refused to be her aunt’s replacement he realized there was no longer anywhere to flee.

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 6:19 PM, ivygirl said:

Never in a million years will I cheer on an affair. 

I think novels, movies and shows let us see things from other POVs than irl where we can never see other people from inside. Therefore, we can easier understand people and actions that are outside from our experiences and even against our ethics. 

Of course cheating is wrong, but it's interesting how different cases are in MM. Don has constantly long affairs, whereas Joan cheats her husband once with Roger after robbing that could have cost their lives. Trydy accepts her husband's cheating with strangers in town but not with neigbor's wife.

I just discovered that I had never pondered why Peggy slept with Pete. They had just met, he was going to be married and he came to her door drunk, so obviously he had no serious intentions - why on earth did she let him in as she wasn't drunk and could think clearly? Was she in love with him or was it just "I have now a pill and can have sex safely, so why not have a little fun with this cute quy" or "maybe it's a good means to promote my career as Joan told me and because it didn't succeed with Don, let's try Pete"? 

Almost the same questions can be applied to their second fling in the office, and in addition he was married and had behaved indifferently towards her since he came from his honeymoon and "one time can be a mistake, but two times is a habit".   

Pete treated Peggy awfully, especially when he resented her joyous dance after her first success. But he can be given credit to one thing: he never boasted to his collegues that he had slept with "the new girl". He even in a way defended Peggy when he hit a collegue who, after she had gained weight, said that nobody would want to sleep with her.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I just discovered that I had never pondered why Peggy slept with Pete. They had just met, he was going to be married and he came to her door drunk, so obviously he had no serious intentions - why on earth did she let him in as she wasn't drunk and could think clearly? Was she in love with him or was it just "I have now a pill and can have sex safely, so why not have a little fun with this cute quy" or "maybe it's a good means to promote my career as Joan told me and because it didn't succeed with Don, let's try Pete"? 

It's hard to pin down, but I always just thought Peggy really was attracted to him and also attracted to the experience. It was exciting and especially after the second time you can see it makes her feel good about herself and gives her confidence. She feels desirable.

The other good thing about Pete is he does seem to be able to learn. He's terrible to Peggy, but does also eventually genuinely care for her and respect her so while she seems foolish when she has the affair with him, it doesn't seem so foolish in retrospect because their relationship ends up pretty good and they both seem to value the connection they have, even if they might both have regrets about their original behavior.

Peggy's sister is wrong in describing Peggy as "seducing a married man," but she also wasn't manipulated herself, which is good for Peggy, imo. She wanted the experience, she had it, and she lives with the consequences and accepts herself.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Of course cheating is wrong, but it's interesting how different cases are in MM. Don has constantly long affairs, whereas Joan cheats her husband once with Roger after robbing that could have cost their lives. Trydy accepts her husband's cheating with strangers in town but not with neigbor's wife. 

Yeah, Don and Roger seem the most committed to cheating. It's hard to imagine them ever being faithful for long. They both have wives, mistresses and one night stands at the same time. Other characters' cheating is less constant--Peggy with the guy in the movie theater, Joan with Roger. By season 6 Pete seems to be working towards being Don and Roger (oh, and Harry Crane) where cheating is just part of the marriage, but by the end seems to see that he doesn't want that.

[ivygirl]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think novels, movies and shows let us see things from other POVs than irl where we can never see other people from inside. Therefore, we can easier understand people and actions that are outside from our experiences and even against our ethics. 

Of course. 

But I’m still uninterested in cheering on an affair. 

For me personally, it was one thing to observe Don and his many affairs, and another to see Ted and Peggy and actually *want* one to happen. I can understand why they got together but—even from the standpoint of fiction—I felt very uncomfortable saying “I hope they get together!” 

I found the relationship dynamics fascinating on this show. But frankly, the constant cheating was the one aspect that wore on me. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, ivygirl said:

I found the relationship dynamics fascinating on this show. But frankly, the constant cheating was the one aspect that wore on me. 

I like that the show really seemed to feel the same way. Like Joan says about the man in the bar, he probably has someone at home whose only crime is being familiar. The characters seem to swing between wanting something new and exciting where the other person doesn't know all their flaws and wanting to be known and accepted for who they are. In the end I feel like the show itself makes a case for saying that the better relationships are the ones where the flaws are known and that you destroy that through disrespect (i.e., lying and cheating).

Don's always caught between wanting to feel home where he's loved and feeling he has to escape to be in that place, plus he numbs his feelings with sex and other drugs. But by the end of the show he does at least have a handful of better relationships. They're just not romantic ones.

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's hard to pin down, but I always just thought Peggy really was attracted to him and also attracted to the experience. It was exciting and especially after the second time you can see it makes her feel good about herself and gives her confidence. She feels desirable.

The other good thing about Pete is he does seem to be able to learn. He's terrible to Peggy, but does also eventually genuinely care for her and respect her so while she seems foolish when she has the affair with him, it doesn't seem so foolish in retrospect because their relationship ends up pretty good and they both seem to value the connection they have, even if they might both have regrets about their original behavior.

Peggy's sister is wrong in describing Peggy as "seducing a married man," but she also wasn't manipulated herself, which is good for Peggy, imo. She wanted the experience, she had it, and she lives with the consequences and accepts herself.

Yeah, Don and Roger seem the most committed to cheating. It's hard to imagine them ever being faithful for long. They both have wives, mistresses and one night stands at the same time. Other characters' cheating is less constant--Peggy with the guy in the movie theater, Joan with Roger. By season 6 Pete seems to be working towards being Don and Roger (oh, and Harry Crane) where cheating is just part of the marriage, but by the end seems to see that he doesn't want that.

I think Pete must have seemed incredibly posh and preppy to a Peggy who was just starting to shed her good little frumpy blue collar Catholic school roots for something more exciting, Plus Peggy was entering a man’s world and the men around her had no problem venting their sexual energies without any moral repercussions. It also did not hurt that young Pete was pretty cute.

I think on this show cheating was the default, which has not been my experience in real life Even Betty cheated  with Don on Henry when they were visiting Bobby at Summer Camp.

[ivygirl]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I think Pete must have seemed incredibly posh and preppy to a Peggy who was just starting to shed her good little frumpy blue collar Catholic school roots for something more exciting, Plus Peggy was entering a man’s world and the men around her had no problem venting their sexual energies without any moral repercussions. It also did not hurt that young Pete was pretty cute.

I think on this show cheating was the default, which has not been my experience in real life Even Betty cheated  with Don on Henry when they were visiting Bobby at Summer Camp.

Pete is A DYCKMAN! (Which always make me laugh a bit because *I* am a Dyckman and most of the Dyckman descendants I know are  not posh or blue bloods in the least 🙂 )

I thought of Don and Betty at camp and that was another situation where I was a little uncomfortable 😉 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think on this show cheating was the default, which has not been my experience in real life Even Betty cheated  with Don on Henry when they were visiting Bobby at Summer Camp.

7 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I thought of Don and Betty at camp and that was another situation where I was a little uncomfortable 😉 

I liked Don and Betty in the camp because they were never as close and open with each other, except when they talked in the telephone when Betty had a cancer, but that was different - now either one needed nothing from one other. 

The athmosphere was also totally different than Don with his mistresses. With them, he acted a role of a lover (different role with each one) just as he did act with his wives the role of a husband and, as he once told, when his children were born and he didn't feel anything, he had to act a role of a father.

Betty was at her best in this scene (plus, she was earlier so good and natural and with her son and enjoyed to sing and play and be with him - a very rare scene). She really knew Dan - that he is wonderful, but only in the beginning - but she had ceased to bear a grudge for the past against him. 

But what of their spouses? I think that if they had by some mircale had been able to see that scene, it wouldn't be mostly sex but the emotional closeness that would have caused them most pain. 

In generally, I think that when we talk about cheating, sex is overrated, or rather other things are underrated.

Before the divorce in Reno, Betty and Henry's assured to the atterney that they had never had sex, i.e. legally they weren't of course guilty of adultery to have had romantic meetings another behind Betty's husband's back and  and decide to marry after Betty's divorce. But morally? Yet can one really blame Betty after Don had betrayed her in every possible way? 

The Coke ad showed something elemental of their marriage: Betty innocently believed that she was chosen because she was the best candidate - and sh acted the perfect wife very well. She enjoyed her work and positively glowed because admiration she got and because she had something of her own. Don knew the whole time that Betty had been given the role only because McCain wanted him, and when he refused their offer, Betty would also loose her role. Betty was so shamed that she was fired that, even if she was told it wasn't her fault but because they wanted a different type of woman, she lied to her husband that she had left on her own because she wanted to put children and home first as the ideal wife and mother should - and Don knew that she lied. They both pretented to each other. (Later, Don was persuaded by Megan to help her to act in the Cinderella ad and thus promote her acting career, but he was never happy about it.)   

In any case, what made Peggy such a great threat to Ted's marriage, wasn't that they had sex once, but that Ted admired and respected her, enjoyed her company, longed for her all the time whereas he was distant when he was at home. (Of course we don't know how his marriage was before he fell for Peggy - one must suppose they had problems because they divorced later.) 

[Umbelina]

Interesting conversations about the cheating @sistermagpie, @Roseanna, @ivygirl, @qtpye and others too of course.  I just didn't want to keep quoting here.  Ha.

I think "cheating" was much more common in (at least) the 50's, 60's, and 70's than people realize.  Motivations vary of course, between the sexes, and individuals, but honestly, two of the biggest factors were the pill, introduced in 1960 (but they did already have diaphragms) and of course, no horrible STD's that people knew about and that couldn't be controlled with taking pills.

I know this is an unpopular theory, but I honestly believe (from observation mostly) that cheating began to drop off with the rise of herpes, and seriously dropped off when HIV/AIDS hit.  It just wasn't worth it, at least without more careful thought.  Sure, alcohol muting fears helped cheating along even with those fears, but in general, indiscriminate cheating did begin to wane when the consequences of cheating became life threatening.

As far as the way the show handled it all?  Sometimes it was very very good, and then later when we devolved into Don's childhood sexual trauma leading to all of the "hit me" and "bandana" crap, and especially when Don got involved with the Doctor's wife?  They just lost me, and I felt I was looking directly at Mathew Weiner's porn stash.

Because?  While I believe Don would continue to cheat?  I honestly did not believe Don would do that to a friend, a man he genuinely liked and respected, who lived in the same damn building.  Also, that affair was, frankly, sickening.  I still fast forward through that shit on my DVD's. 

Men like Don, in that time especially?  Could cheat on wives very easily.  Helen Gurly Brown's book Sex and the Single Girl actually encouraged that, for both fun and profit, being promoted, getting meals and perks for free on a secretary's salary, etc.  Also, White Males, especially those with money?  Ruled the world, and everyone else essentially bowed to them, had to please them in one way or another, they were the pinnacle of the pyramid.  That of course began to change a few years later with the Second Wave of the Women's Movement but it wasn't largely accepted, although when the laws changed in 1964 a tiny bit more equality was introduced, at least as far as hiring of women in traditionally male jobs.

Anyway, back to sex, and cheating.  Leaving Don for a moment because honestly, to me, most of the time he was just a man of his era, uncommonly handsome, talented, needy, and women flocked to him naturally, and he, because it was not just accepted but expected?  Took advantage of that easy sex, anywhere, and anytime.  Throw in his obvious sexual issues and voila. 

I'll just do Pete for now, because if I do others?  This will be even longer than it already is!

Pete:  He was one of the most interesting characters to me, from the beginning until the end, and I was thrilled that he got a happy ending.  He was born just a tiny bit out of that bubble of "women are our slaves Mother/Whore syndrome" era.  As was often shown and once even said on the show, Pete was forward thinking, anticipating cultural changes.  I think he thought cheating was just what he was supposed to do, because the men he admired and tried to emulate (his dad, Don, Roger) all did it. 

In his real heart though, Pete didn't want all of that.  I think there was a genuine attraction to Peggy, not just looks, some kind of soul level, and he was completely terrified about getting married along with thrilled about it.  He got drunk, and it happened.  At that time he was too much of a snob to consider marrying someone like Peggy, and anyway, after that?  He had a pretty great marriage up until his wife decided to move to the suburbs, a place he really hated, which made his day endless with the commute.  They lost their shared and excited city couple selves, and it was more the loss of that true "marriage" that lead to his cheating than anything.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think the first time he cheated was with the au pair, and it was because his wife was away.  He is not a guy you leave on his own for long periods, and yes, that was a failing of his, and came back once Trudy moved to the suburbs against his wishes.  Add that to the whole "entertaining" part of his job, which involved hookers, and his increasing isolation and distance (emotional and physical) from Trudy?  It got worse.  It got sloppy Don-level worse, until he hit bottom and Trudy understandably threw him out.

Of all of Pete's affairs, I most loved his relationship with Alexis Bledel.  He connected with her, he could take care of her (or so he thought) and from beginning to end, I just loved their story.  I was completely happy, and not terribly surprised when they (real life) married later, because they not only looked as if they belonged together, they obviously had amazing chemistry.

In his heart though, and personality?  He really didn't want to cheat, he wanted closeness, to be "one person" the way he was with Trudy when Kennedy was assassinated.  I was thrilled when he and Trudy got back together, and especially thrilled when they did so in a way that "one person" could work again.  Combining family and travel, being a team, being successful without NYC, but being able to both have their home in a family friendly place, and to travel the world together. 

Pete's workplace will no longer expect him to "cheat" and he and Trudy are back on the same page. 

I honestly don't think he will stray again, not because of diseases, but because he doesn't want or need to, and at least we got one happy ending.

[Roseanna]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I honestly did not believe Don would do that to a friend, a man he genuinely liked and respected, who lived in the same damn Building.

Men like Don, in that time especially?  Could cheat on wives very easily. 

Yeah, that men's code of honor. A man could easily cheat his own wife but not sleep with his friend's wife. In a way it was "natural" for the husband could revenge for "stealing" his "possession" with hitting or with other means (like Don did to Roger).  

On the basis of what he had shown about Don I don't think that the affair with Sylvie was unlikely. He had earlier slept with her daughter's teacher who liver near his home - also this affair could easily had been found out and even if he didn't care how it would influence on his relationship with Betty (who had already once thrown him out), he didn't even care (as have said here) that it would have harmed Sally.

My theory is that Don chose Sylvie who lived in the same house just because he "subconsciously" wanted to be caught by Megan or Dr Husband, in order to get Megan to end their marriage. Unfortunaly he was was caught by Sally but in a way it was a suitable revenge because of his affair with her teacher.

[Umbelina]

I'm going to do Peggy now because it's pretty short, she wasn't really a cheater type.

Peggy was finally really in the "Big City" and at a "Big Firm" and thrilled to be there.  (She starts in March of 1960, the pill was approved by the FDA on May 9th.)  Her first real contact in this fascinating new world was Joan, who basically told her to sex it up, that she wasn't much, but she was new, and she should capitalize on that.

She has her "thunderstruck" moment when she meets Pete.  It happens, it often happens in the work place, but for Peggy?  She was almost 21, still a virgin, and probably rarely saw men in very expensive suits and ties, and honestly, Pete was tall and sexy with those beautiful eyes.  She probably wanted to get rid of that whole virgin thing, become "cooler" and what better candidate?  Ooops, he's getting married.

He shows up drunk, and needy, and she makes a choice.  To me, that was completely believable, and technically not even adultery.  She made that choice for many reasons, and desire was only a small part of those reasons.  I think one of those reasons was "OMG, this handsome, debonair, accomplished guy wants ME!"  This becomes very clear as years go by, because Pete and Peggy really do have a supportive relationship overall, that attraction or bond was real, on more than just a sex level.   Later of course, there is adultery between them, but again, based more on that "connection" they have than on blatant hedonism.

There was no cheating with Duck, he just was mostly just convenient. 

With Ted?  That was also so completely believable to me.  Work romances happen, many marriages come from spending hours and hours at work with someone, really getting to know that person, in some ways, better than a spouse, because more waking hours are spent with people from work than at home, especially in something like advertising with long days, evening entertaining of clients, and out of town trips.  In addition, he was her mentor, and a seriously good guy.

I'm not saying it was right for Ted to cheat on his (seemingly blameless) wife, or for Peggy to accept, then later encourage that.  I will say though, that I've seen many marriages take place in situations like this, after the divorces or divorces.  Peggy did choose a good man there, the timing was off, and because he WAS a good man (or a good guy to marry) he ultimately stays with his wife.

He did love Peggy though, and she loved him.  It was a true love affair, not just easy sex with a coworker.  Had they met before Ted married?  I think they would have had a wonderful marriage, modern style, both still working.

To me though?  It would have also been believable (perhaps more believable) if Ted did divorce and then marry Peggy.  It would have never been smooth sailing though, especially because Ted had children, and I doubt it would have, in the end, led to much happiness for Peggy either.

I pretty much related to most of Peggy's sexual experiences, Peggy's men, from beginning to end were all very believable to me.  That was something the Mad Men team did right.  From picking up that guy at the bar (adorable and Peggy stretching her wings) to trying to make it work with that dweeb Mark, to her socially conscious lover and live in guy Abe (both of those SO realistic to me!) 

To have her end up with Stan was also perfect and believable, where else would Peggy really meet and get to know a guy but work?  It's where she spends nearly all of her time, and like many women of that time?  It's where she meets "the one," and it wasn't an instant attraction on either of their parts, which probably means it's earned and will last.  They actually know one another, a good thing when starting a life together.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity and typo

[Roseanna]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He had a pretty great marriage up until his wife decided to move to the suburbs, a place he really hated, which made his day endless with the commute.  They lost their shared and excited city couple selves, and it was more the loss of that true "marriage" that lead to his cheating than anything.

I agree that it was a part of it. I grew to like Trudy the more I saw her but she could be very pig-headed in some matters: first, she wanted a bigger apartment than Pete could afford with his salary and got money from his daddy whereas Pete didn't get a dime from his and then she wanted to move to the suburb because she thought it was better for the child. Now, I am not saying that Trudy was wrong wanting these things but Pete was bitter. 

Also, after the baby was born, Pete was no more Number One his wife's life - a not very pretty attitude, but true to many men, especially those who have issues with their own mum like Pete had.  

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I agree that it was a part of it. I grew to like Trudy the more I saw her but she could be very pig-headed in some matters: first, she wanted a bigger apartment than Pete could afford with his salary and got money from his daddy whereas Pete didn't get a dime from his and then she wanted to move to the suburb because she thought it was better for the child. Now, I am not saying that Trudy was wrong wanting these things but Pete was bitter. 

Also, after the baby was born, Pete was no more Number One his wife's life - a not very pretty attitude, but true to many men, especially those who have issues with their own mum like Pete had.  

I don't think Pete needed to be "number one" over his baby, but he certainly wanted "one person" which is something he says in the first or second episode about his marriage vows.

I don't think the baby split them apart really, they could have, as "one person" shared that overwhelming love together, but as you say, Trudy suddenly wanted a very different life for their family, and it was absolutely not the kind of life Pete wanted.

I think that disconnect, that "I thought we were ONE, but now who is she?" was the real chasm in their marriage, Pete was just lost after that. 

I was thinking of doing Roger next, but he's such a stereotype, and although done brilliantly by the show, what is there really to say about him?  The most interesting thing about Roger is that he changed with the times, he didn't remain completely stuck in one decade, he moved through each, and tried to fully live those experiences.

So, the first part of Roger's story and cheating is very very much like Don's, without the childhood sexual warping Don endured.  Roger just did what most men in his position did, but he varied it by decade. 

In the 40's he fell in love right before the war, but his "true love" dumped him and he went off to fight (like thousands of men of that decade.)  Later, he married, again, as expected, a girl from the right kind of family, and popped out a child, again, as was common.

In the 50's he used daddy's connections to get into the wild and exciting world of advertising, again, like most rich guys of that time with family connections.  He was good at schmoozing but not really talented other than in his client pleasing ways.  He had a family and sex on the side, as men in that position did.  He was honestly again, just a man of his time, born with a goody basket.

In the 60's, always one to be "in the moment" things began to shift quite a bit, the pill, the social changes, and very soon, lots of drugs and free love and especially LSD and consciousness raising.  He fit right in as the aging wanna be that hung with the young crowd back then, and kinda/sorta managed to fit in.  He (NO surprise) ends up marrying his young secretary, and again, (NO surprise) and completely typically, ends up cheating and divorced from her as well, though for "60's reasons" not old fashioned ones.

Roger was always a man of the times, more than an individual, he had a lot handed to him, but he also had angst about that, and about aging.

His primary work relationship up until and after he meets his second wife was obviously Joan.  Joan pretty much steadfastly kept living her glory years of the late 50's.  She was Roger's mother/sister/wife/friend/lover for a long long time.  Their biggest disconnect was when Joan became pregnant.  They both stubbornly played their "60's" roles, when in reality, they both wanted the baby, and probably would have had a fairly decent marriage (though Roger would still cheat, and Joan would still "handle it.")

Roger in the end?  For once in his life is ahead of the curve (as far as decades.)  He marries an age appropriate woman he can "have it all" with and probably is very happy with her until he dies.  They've both "been around the block" and they enjoy money, travel, food, but face it, this is before Viagra, and Roger's had two heart attacks, he settles down.

I'll touch on Joan.  Joan is the biggest stereotype of the entire show.  Pretty much read Helen Gurly Brown's book, and Cosmopolitan Magazine of her era, add in aging, and she follows the script for a smart woman with giant boobs and a pretty face.  Her cheating was "the thing" for a woman like her at that time, given her circumstances.  Then, thankfully, at the very last second, after wanting to move beyond the advantages of her aging big boobs get you anywhere life and hey guys, I have a brain and know this damn business better than most of you! moments?

She evolves, she turns the tables, and with her child, and connections and brains, she rejects the easy life of marrying a rich guy and chilling, and embarks on her own career with her own terms.  (She skipped several decades there, but good for her.)

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Men like Don, in that time especially?  Could cheat on wives very easily.  Helen Gurly Brown's book Sex and the Single Girl actually encouraged that, for both fun and profit, being promoted, getting meals and perks for free on a secretary's salary, etc.  Also, White Males, especially those with money?  Ruled the world, and everyone else essentially bowed to them, had to please them in one way or another, they were the pinnacle of the pyramid.  That of course began to change a few years later with the Second Wave of the Women's Movement but it wasn't largely accepted, although when the laws changed in 1964 a tiny bit more equality was introduced, at least as far as hiring of women in traditionally male jobs.

I would also add that it seems like the way that men and women were so defined by their different roles it encouraged cheating even more. If the guy's got a life in the city that's about other men and business and there are "fun" girls there too, not to mention a general understanding that men are natural cheaters, it's even more reason to cheat. Wives and mothers cheating were betraying their role and being bad--men were just boys being boys.

Plus, with women so confined to the domestic sphere and even expected to play dumb (like Joan in the beginning) it would be hard for couples to connect as much as they could, it seems to me. That seems to be why Victorian and Edwardian times seem almost comically homoerotic. It's almost expected that all men's real intimate intellectual and emotional connections are with men and women are just angels they're supposed to admire and care for.

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think the baby split them apart really, they could have, as "one person" shared that overwhelming love together, but as you say, Trudy suddenly wanted a very different life for their family, and it was absolutely not the kind of life Pete wanted.

Yeah, I didn't think it was a case of him not being the center of attention but more that there was a huge change that made him feel genuinely insecure and rejected. He never wanted the Betty/Don type marriage where the wife is tucked away far in the suburbs and he's "free" in the city--he threw himself into that life in S6, but wasn't happy. I remember a lot of people seemed to assume Pete was living it up with orgies in the city once he was separated but from what we see he's very solitary in that little one-bedroom apartment (except when his mom moves in). He wanted his marriage and regretted not taking care of it.

But I do also think that Trudy's doing things that are also harmful to the marriage--not that this makes her responsible for Pete's cheating. One aspect of it that really seemed big to me was her reliance on her parents--we hear about them a lot in S6 and, of course, her father's interference is the the catalyst for their actual split when they were starting to come back together. Whenever Trudy starts implying that Pete should be grateful to her father it always seems like she's treading on very dangerous ground, putting him back in the position of the non-favorite child and not wanting to fully commit to wife over daughter. 

It always seemed fitting to me that when they are getting back together her parents no longer seem to be a factor where during their break up they were a constant presence. 

48 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Roger was always a man of the times, more than an individual, he had a lot handed to him, but he also had angst about that, and about aging.

I love how Roger is so believably one of those guys you hear about who was ostensibly over the hill but completely fit in with the changing times. There was some quote I heard somewhere where somebody said of a friend they hadn't seen in a while that he'd "gotten younger" since they last saw him in a way that only happened in the 60s. His young wife (like Don's) makes him seem older, really.

Ditto on all Peggy's guys. I loved so many of her connections, especially when she's trying to make it work with the guy who needs her to be a virgin. She's so ultimately incapable of being anyone other than who she is that it's such a trainwreck watching her try to be what somebody else wants (be it that guy or Abe when she's ignoring signs that the problems they have at the start of their relationship are never going to go away). Or even Duck when he starts needing her to be something else than she is.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I feel like the show handled "sex" very very well, until it took Don way over the top and into creepyville.

Betty is another great example of her times.  She is sexual, and she refuses to look at what she knows to be true, that her husband cheats on her.  Her!  Grace Kelly looks, kept her figure after having children, perfect hostess, perfect 50's wife.

She lives for, longs for, thinks about, goes to bed beautiful in hopes of Don making love to her.  She has the kids, but that's not what she really wants at her core, she want's her husband to desire her, and she wants sex with him. 

She rarely gets that.  She had it in Italy...but that was like a "last hurrah" for the Drapers, a look at what could have been, a look at what probably was before children, and Don getting bored.

The most interesting thing about Betty (as far as sex) is that she wanted it, enjoyed it, needed it as just sex almost as much as she needed it to feel close to Don, or loved. 

When she realizes her friends think/know that Don's always cheated on her she is humiliated, because she's worked so hard at being perfect in every single way, and the envy of her friends and associates because of that perfection.  Them knowing, to me, was a bigger reason for the decision to dump Don than anything else.  He EMBARRASSED her.

I liked her fantasy about the air conditioning guy, it felt real, and her use of that to rile Don up and make him protective also played as both of the times and real.

Her last two sexual experiences with Don were also, to me at least, just perfectly done and very believable.  I think it was just defining when she "used" Don by climbing on top of him after her father died, especially the next day, when Don found out that it meant nothing to her other than sex.  Tables turned.

I also liked her in her one cheating experience (that involved actual intercourse) and that of course started at that gas station, and continued into actual sex at Bobby's camp.  That was probably Betty's most true self, no hidden agenda at all, she loved being desired by Don, she loved sex with Don, she didn't love...Don.  More importantly though, she also no longer hated Don, "that poor girl" conversation between the two of them in bed was perfection.

Now Henry?  He was the "good on paper" guy, and he stayed that guy.  He was her chance to "win" and to "not be embarrassed" anymore.  She was attracted to him but was easily able to wait for sex, I don't think he ever really aroused her sexual passion the way Don did.  I don't think he really understood her either, and it showed as she faced death.  He was still the daddy/protector she thought she wanted, but he didn't "get" why she would choose to continue with school or to NOT become disfigured and disabled from surgery/chemo and just wanted to continue with school, and die without a futile and painful fight.

No one really knew Betty because Betty didn't know herself, until she got her death sentence, and became herself.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Umbelina
Bobby not Henry, yikes

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I also liked her in her one cheating experience (that involved actual intercourse) and that of course started at that gas station, and continued into actual sex at Bobby's camp. 

Did she not have sex with that guy in the bar? I liked that, weird as it was. Iirc, she was dealing with her knowledge of Don's cheating and did it herself. That kind of encounter wasn't really her thing, but she had the experience.

I think that's also why it's great where she gets to be Don's mistress. Henry wouldn't have been happy, but it's probably actually very therapeutic for her. It was never her (or at least not enough her), it was him. His younger, hipper, sexier wife lost his interest even quicker than Betty did.

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Now Henry?  He was the "good on paper" guy, and he stayed that guy.  He was her chance to "win" and to "not be embarrassed" anymore.  She was attracted to him but was easily able to wait for sex, I don't think he ever really aroused her sexual passion the way Don did.  I

I like, though, how she clearly hasn't chosen a sexless marriage either. She's attracted to him, they have sex and we even see her playing around with it, saying things meant to turn him on (like about how all the guys were looking at her at the party) and that bizarro scene where she suggests holding down the teenager staying in the house so Henry can rape her. The show makes a point of saying that this isn't a situation where Don got the hot young wife and Betty got a marriage where she had to go without or lie back and suffer through some guy she doesn't really like that way.

[Umbelina]

20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Did she not have sex with that guy in the bar? I liked that, weird as it was. Iirc, she was dealing with her knowledge of Don's cheating and did it herself. That kind of encounter wasn't really her thing, but she had the experience.

I think that's also why it's great where she gets to be Don's mistress. Henry wouldn't have been happy, but it's probably actually very therapeutic for her. It was never her (or at least not enough her), it was him. His younger, hipper, sexier wife lost his interest even quicker than Betty did.

I like, though, how she clearly hasn't chosen a sexless marriage either. She's attracted to him, they have sex and we even see her playing around with it, saying things meant to turn him on (like about how all the guys were looking at her at the party) and that bizarro scene where she suggests holding down the teenager staying in the house so Henry can rape her. The show makes a point of saying that this isn't a situation where Don got the hot young wife and Betty got a marriage where she had to go without or lie back and suffer through some guy she doesn't really like that way.

I forgot Betty's one "zipless fuck" in that bar.  In a way that was a bit like Peggy having sex with Pete.  Both were "breaking their cherries" for fairly similar reasons.

Sexually?  I don't think Henry ever lived up to Don for Betty. 

Maybe it's me, but I never felt any real passion between them after marriage, and I did feel that Betty settled for appearances and for winning and "being normal" with Henry.  She was still at heart a 50's girl.

She gets a last minute growth spurt before Mathew kills her. 

Would their marriage have grown and become better?  Probably, but my doubt is there because when confronted with a huge problem, death, he had no concept of who Betty really was, and he was not supportive of her being a grown up, and able to make her own choices.

He was all about what it would mean to him.

I won't even get into the idiocy of her wanting Henry to keep the kids, because that's something I never bought.  IF Don actually lets that happen, and the show seemed to imply that he would?  Henry will remarry in a heartbeat to have his old fashioned 50's life back.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Now Henry?  He was the "good on paper" guy, and he stayed that guy.  He was her chance to "win" and to "not be embarrassed" anymore.  She was attracted to him but was easily able to wait for sex, I don't think he ever really aroused her sexual passion the way Don did.  I don't think he really understood her either, and it showed as she faced death.  He was still the daddy/protector she thought she wanted, but he didn't "get" why she would choose to continue with school or to NOT become disfigured and disabled from surgery/chemo and just wanted to continue with school, and die without a futile and painful fight.

I agree that Henry didn't understand Betty but he was mostly good towards her. Those rare times he was angry to her, it was with reason (although I didn't like that he forbid her to say her political opinions if they differed from his but such is the fate of the political wife).

Most of all, Henry must be respected that he had "serious intentions" and was willing to marry a woman with three children. How many men would have done it, however beautiful the woman was?   

44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that's also why it's great where she gets to be Don's mistress. Henry wouldn't have been happy

Usually I don't believe that "what the spouse doesn't know, can't hurt him/her" because secrets often influnce on the relationship in a bad way. But in this case I believe that it was true.

However, one can never be quite sure that one can't be caught. What if Henry had missed Betty so much that he had decided to drive to her in the middle of night?

Luckily, MW never chose such too easy plot twists.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Roseanna
correcting meaning

[Roseanna]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sexually?  I don't think Henry ever lived up to Don for Betty. 

Maybe not, but I remember what Betty after the early sex with Don something like: who are you? She felt something was amiss and sex couldn't make it right.

Athough Henry and Betty didn't learn to knew each other, either, but at least he didn't give her such pain as Don.  

[Roseanna]

45 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Did she not have sex with that guy in the bar? I liked that, weird as it was. Iirc, she was dealing with her knowledge of Don's cheating and did it herself. That kind of encounter wasn't really her thing, but she had the experience.

I think it was also her secret revenge and a way to make it (at least a bit) even before she took Don right. And it was "safe" because she was already pregnant.

[Domestic Assassin]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I won't even get into the idiocy of her wanting Henry to keep the kids, because that's something I never bought.  IF Don actually lets that happen, and the show seemed to imply that he would?  Henry will remarry in a heartbeat to have his old fashioned 50's life back.

Betty did NOT want Henry to keep the kids.  She choose to have her brother and his wife take the kids.  It was Sally that wanted Henry to keep them.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Domestic Assassin said:

Betty did NOT want Henry to keep the kids.  She choose to have her brother and his wife take the kids.  It was Sally that wanted Henry to keep them.

Thanks, I kind of blanked on that whole thing, mostly because I never bought that Don would accept either of those decisions.  Ever.

I was pretty disappointed in the finale though, I know some loved it, and I liked the conclusions to all the stories except Don's. 

As far as the final season?  I was mostly disappointed because we are saying goodbye to all of these people, but instead we get Don on walkabout and episodes full of random people instead of the main cast.  Oh, and the fact that they killed off both of the women he was closest to. 

Also they left out so much stuff, and in previous seasons they handled big events of real life so well.  I felt, for example, Magen's story just petered out, especially with all the Manson teases.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think there was a genuine attraction to Peggy, not just looks, some kind of soul level, and he was completely terrified about getting married along with thrilled about it.  He got drunk, and it happened.  At that time he was too much of a snob to consider marrying someone like Peggy, and anyway, after that?  He had a pretty great marriage up until his wife decided to move to the suburbs, a place he really hated, which made his day endless with the commute.  They lost their shared and excited city couple selves, and it was more the loss of that true "marriage" that lead to his cheating than anything.

I don't think Pete's marriage was so good in the beginning although there were good times later. 

In S1 Trudy wanted a greater apartment than Pete could afford with his salary and then he got money from his daddy (S1, ep. 4) and then there was disagreement with that horrible wedding present and rifle and after won again by his wife he showed the gun (a phallic symbol if any!) to Peggy and told his hunting fantasy (ep. 7). No wonder Pete slept with her the second time (ep. 8).   

[Umbelina]

I just realized why they had to kill off Anna, dang, I'm slow.  It took me this long.

If Anna was alive, she would have moved in with Don to take care of the kids when he was at work, and so her death was needed in order for anyone to believe he would abandon his kids (which no way in hell do I believe anyway.)

She would have been "Aunt Anna" and a great substitute mother figure, not a love interest for Don.

So, Weiner killed her to remove that simple solution for Don.

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yeah, that men's code of honor. A man could easily cheat his own wife but not sleep with his friend's wife. In a way it was "natural" for the husband could revenge for "stealing" his "possession" with hitting or with other means (like Don did to Roger).  

On the basis of what he had shown about Don I don't think that the affair with Sylvie was unlikely. He had earlier slept with her daughter's teacher who liver near his home - also this affair could easily had been found out and even if he didn't care how it would influence on his relationship with Betty (who had already once thrown him out), he didn't even care (as have said here) that it would have harmed Sally.

My theory is that Don chose Sylvie who lived in the same house just because he "subconsciously" wanted to be caught by Megan or Dr Husband, in order to get Megan to end their marriage. Unfortunaly he was was caught by Sally but in a way it was a suitable revenge because of his affair with her teacher.

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Interesting conversations about the cheating @sistermagpie, @Roseanna, @ivygirl, @qtpye and others too of course.  I just didn't want to keep quoting here.  Ha.

I think "cheating" was much more common in (at least) the 50's, 60's, and 70's than people realize.  Motivations vary of course, between the sexes, and individuals, but honestly, two of the biggest factors were the pill, introduced in 1960 (but they did already have diaphragms) and of course, no horrible STD's that people knew about and that couldn't be controlled with taking pills.

I know this is an unpopular theory, but I honestly believe (from observation mostly) that cheating began to drop off with the rise of herpes, and seriously dropped off when HIV/AIDS hit.  It just wasn't worth it, at least without more careful thought.  Sure, alcohol muting fears helped cheating along even with those fears, but in general, indiscriminate cheating did begin to wane when the consequences of cheating became life threatening.

As far as the way the show handled it all?  Sometimes it was very very good, and then later when we devolved into Don's childhood sexual trauma leading to all of the "hit me" and "bandana" crap, and especially when Don got involved with the Doctor's wife?  They just lost me, and I felt I was looking directly at Mathew Weiner's porn stash.

Because?  While I believe Don would continue to cheat?  I honestly did not believe Don would do that to a friend, a man he genuinely liked and respected, who lived in the same damn building.  Also, that affair was, frankly, sickening.  I still fast forward through that shit on my DVD's. 

Men like Don, in that time especially?  Could cheat on wives very easily.  Helen Gurly Brown's book Sex and the Single Girl actually encouraged that, for both fun and profit, being promoted, getting meals and perks for free on a secretary's salary, etc.  Also, White Males, especially those with money?  Ruled the world, and everyone else essentially bowed to them, had to please them in one way or another, they were the pinnacle of the pyramid.  That of course began to change a few years later with the Second Wave of the Women's Movement but it wasn't largely accepted, although when the laws changed in 1964 a tiny bit more equality was introduced, at least as far as hiring of women in traditionally male jobs.

Anyway, back to sex, and cheating.  Leaving Don for a moment because honestly, to me, most of the time he was just a man of his era, uncommonly handsome, talented, needy, and women flocked to him naturally, and he, because it was not just accepted but expected?  Took advantage of that easy sex, anywhere, and anytime.  Throw in his obvious sexual issues and voila. 

I'll just do Pete for now, because if I do others?  This will be even longer than it already is!

Pete:  He was one of the most interesting characters to me, from the beginning until the end, and I was thrilled that he got a happy ending.  He was born just a tiny bit out of that bubble of "women are our slaves Mother/Whore syndrome" era.  As was often shown and once even said on the show, Pete was forward thinking, anticipating cultural changes.  I think he thought cheating was just what he was supposed to do, because the men he admired and tried to emulate (his dad, Don, Roger) all did it. 

In his real heart though, Pete didn't want all of that.  I think there was a genuine attraction to Peggy, not just looks, some kind of soul level, and he was completely terrified about getting married along with thrilled about it.  He got drunk, and it happened.  At that time he was too much of a snob to consider marrying someone like Peggy, and anyway, after that?  He had a pretty great marriage up until his wife decided to move to the suburbs, a place he really hated, which made his day endless with the commute.  They lost their shared and excited city couple selves, and it was more the loss of that true "marriage" that lead to his cheating than anything.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think the first time he cheated was with the au pair, and it was because his wife was away.  He is not a guy you leave on his own for long periods, and yes, that was a failing of his, and came back once Trudy moved to the suburbs against his wishes.  Add that to the whole "entertaining" part of his job, which involved hookers, and his increasing isolation and distance (emotional and physical) from Trudy?  It got worse.  It got sloppy Don-level worse, until he hit bottom and Trudy understandably threw him out.

Of all of Pete's affairs, I most loved his relationship with Alexis Bledel.  He connected with her, he could take care of her (or so he thought) and from beginning to end, I just loved their story.  I was completely happy, and not terribly surprised when they (real life) married later, because they not only looked as if they belonged together, they obviously had amazing chemistry.

In his heart though, and personality?  He really didn't want to cheat, he wanted closeness, to be "one person" the way he was with Trudy when Kennedy was assassinated.  I was thrilled when he and Trudy got back together, and especially thrilled when they did so in a way that "one person" could work again.  Combining family and travel, being a team, being successful without NYC, but being able to both have their home in a family friendly place, and to travel the world together. 

Pete's workplace will no longer expect him to "cheat" and he and Trudy are back on the same page. 

I honestly don't think he will stray again, not because of diseases, but because he doesn't want or need to, and at least we got one happy ending.

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Pete needed to be "number one" over his baby, but he certainly wanted "one person" which is something he says in the first or second episode about his marriage vows.

I don't think the baby split them apart really, they could have, as "one person" shared that overwhelming love together, but as you say, Trudy suddenly wanted a very different life for their family, and it was absolutely not the kind of life Pete wanted.

I think that disconnect, that "I thought we were ONE, but now who is she?" was the real chasm in their marriage, Pete was just lost after that. 

I was thinking of doing Roger next, but he's such a stereotype, and although done brilliantly by the show, what is there really to say about him?  The most interesting thing about Roger is that he changed with the times, he didn't remain completely stuck in one decade, he moved through each, and tried to fully live those experiences.

So, the first part of Roger's story and cheating is very very much like Don's, without the childhood sexual warping Don endured.  Roger just did what most men in his position did, but he varied it by decade. 

In the 40's he fell in love right before the war, but his "true love" dumped him and he went off to fight (like thousands of men of that decade.)  Later, he married, again, as expected, a girl from the right kind of family, and popped out a child, again, as was common.

In the 50's he used daddy's connections to get into the wild and exciting world of advertising, again, like most rich guys of that time with family connections.  He was good at schmoozing but not really talented other than in his client pleasing ways.  He had a family and sex on the side, as men in that position did.  He was honestly again, just a man of his time, born with a goody basket.

In the 60's, always one to be "in the moment" things began to shift quite a bit, the pill, the social changes, and very soon, lots of drugs and free love and especially LSD and consciousness raising.  He fit right in as the aging wanna be that hung with the young crowd back then, and kinda/sorta managed to fit in.  He (NO surprise) ends up marrying his young secretary, and again, (NO surprise) and completely typically, ends up cheating and divorced from her as well, though for "60's reasons" not old fashioned ones.

Roger was always a man of the times, more than an individual, he had a lot handed to him, but he also had angst about that, and about aging.

His primary work relationship up until and after he meets his second wife was obviously Joan.  Joan pretty much steadfastly kept living her glory years of the late 50's.  She was Roger's mother/sister/wife/friend/lover for a long long time.  Their biggest disconnect was when Joan became pregnant.  They both stubbornly played their "60's" roles, when in reality, they both wanted the baby, and probably would have had a fairly decent marriage (though Roger would still cheat, and Joan would still "handle it.")

Roger in the end?  For once in his life is ahead of the curve (as far as decades.)  He marries an age appropriate woman he can "have it all" with and probably is very happy with her until he dies.  They've both "been around the block" and they enjoy money, travel, food, but face it, this is before Viagra, and Roger's had two heart attacks, he settles down.

I'll touch on Joan.  Joan is the biggest stereotype of the entire show.  Pretty much read Helen Gurly Brown's book, and Cosmopolitan Magazine of her era, add in aging, and she follows the script for a smart woman with giant boobs and a pretty face.  Her cheating was "the thing" for a woman like her at that time, given her circumstances.  Then, thankfully, at the very last second, after wanting to move beyond the advantages of her aging big boobs get you anywhere life and hey guys, I have a brain and know this damn business better than most of you! moments?

She evolves, she turns the tables, and with her child, and connections and brains, she rejects the easy life of marrying a rich guy and chilling, and embarks on her own career with her own terms.  (She skipped several decades there, but good for her.)

I always wondered how a woman like Joan did not end up being married to a rich guy and queen of some social circle. Joan knows the “rules” and back then a woman was kind of entertaining old made territory if she was not married by 25.

I went to college in the early aughts. We watched an anthropology movie about marriage that was filmed in 1981. The narrator kept on going on about how the most educated of all the brides was getting married at such an advanced age...she was all of 24.

I know Joan secretly loved to work and wanted to be loved for more than her beautiful appearance. She chides Peggy for looking frumpy but she really wasted her prime years having an affair with Roger, who at that time only considered her a little more than a sex doll. I think he called her something like the best piece of ass he ever had when he was at the hospital and she seemed honestly hurt by his comments. For a woman who follows the rules of the old world, it really was not smart.

I am glad she ended up financially independent but hated the way she got her partnership stake.

I always thought the episode at Bobby’s camp was really Betty at her prime. She had lost the “fat Betty” weight and was back to being her beautiful old self as evidenced by the gas station attendant almost drooling over her. She was coming into her own being the socialite and politician’s wife she was born to be. Betty hated being middle class and now she was back in the upper rung.

She also understood that Don Draper was fine for a roll in the sack but hell to be married to. She honestly probably did feel sorry for Megan at this point.

[doodlebug]

4 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I always wondered how a woman like Joan did not end up being married to a rich guy and queen of some social circle. Joan knows the “rules” and back then a woman was kind of entertaining old made territory if she was not married by 25.

I went to college in the early aughts. We watched an anthropology movie about marriage that was filmed in 1981. The narrator kept on going on about how the most educated of all the brides was getting married at such an advanced age...she was all of 24.

I think this is also a big reason why infidelity in marriage doesn't seem as common these days.  Women are no longer getting married right out of high school or college in their early 20's and men aren't expected to settle down immediately after college either.  Back in the 50's, the average man was married by 22, the average woman, even younger.  Nowadays, the age of first marriage for men is around 27.  Those 5 years make a big difference.

The other change is societal expectations.  Premarital sex is common and living together without marriage happens all the time.  Divorce is no longer stigmatized.  Therefore, people have had plenty of time and opportunity to sample the field before marriage and almost no one expects to marry a virgin.  People who are in unhappy marriage just get a divorce, they aren't as driven to break their marriage vows when it is not so difficult to simply leave the marriage.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

I think this is also a big reason why infidelity in marriage doesn't seem as common these days.  Women are no longer getting married right out of high school or college in their early 20's and men aren't expected to settle down immediately after college either.  Back in the 50's, the average man was married by 22, the average woman, even younger.  Nowadays, the age of first marriage for men is around 27.  Those 5 years make a big difference.

The other change is societal expectations.  Premarital sex is common and living together without marriage happens all the time.  Divorce is no longer stigmatized.  Therefore, people have had plenty of time and opportunity to sample the field before marriage and almost no one expects to marry a virgin.  People who are in unhappy marriage just get a divorce, they aren't as driven to break their marriage vows when it is not so difficult to simply leave the marriage.

All of this AND Herpes, which will never go away and can only be treated and can infect others even if there is no sign of it at that time, and HIV/AIDS which while no longer a certain death sentence?  Requires life long treatment, and caution.

Honestly those things and that many people seriously dislike condoms are probably the biggest contributors to the sudden popularity of monogamy (I watched it happen.  Ha.)

One other factor is that it pretty much requires two incomes now to survive, so if you have a spouse contributing to that, which most marriages do these days?  It's pretty hard to risk that, and STD's, while having to wear a condom.

It's also no longer "cool" and "expected" at least among most people, there certainly are exceptions to that though.

I don't think it's so much that people are more committed as that the consequences are so much more possibly severe, and not as much fun if you are having sex with someone "safe" since "safe" people wear condoms, and if they don't with you?  You can pretty much guess they don't with others, which is a crap shoot for your health and marriage and livelihood.

I honestly think a lot of single people, especially those who grew up before sex could mean death or pain don't bother with casual sex anymore either.  Well, maybe a few men do, but women?  Honestly, not worth the bother, and who wants oral sex through latex?  ahem, oversharing...

Additionally many are putting off having children, which are a stress in marriage, simply because of money (they need those two paychecks and child care is scary and expensive) OR they aren't having children at all because of climate change, and not wanting to bring children into a life of hell in a devastated world.  Those conversations are being had, I hear about them all the time.

I think a lot of people honestly can't AFFORD to divorce, cheap nice apartments no longer exist, people are underwater on school loans, the housing bubble burst and some paid more for their house than they could sell it for...basically, practicalities that were not a factor in the 50's, 60's, or 70's.

ETA, Don would probably still cheat, he's rich, and he's often drunk, so many of those cautions would sail out with the empty bottles for him.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If Anna was alive, she would have moved in with Don to take care of the kids when he was at work, and so her death was needed in order for anyone to believe he would abandon his kids (which no way in hell do I believe anyway.) 

I honestly don't think we're meant to think he would ever abandon them. Even if the kids did end up with Henry or Betty's brother and his wife, Don would still be part of their life. But even that isn't set in stone--Don doesn't need Anna to have someone to be there for the kids, he could just hire a nanny a la Family Affair. If he had a live-in nanny that would be fine. Better than Anna, really, imo because it wouldn't raise as many questions and Anna wouldn't be giving up her life to serve Don.

But I think the point of Sally and Betty's plans is more just about bringing home to Don that everyone has noticed that he has the impulse to bolt. He's not the guy you rely on to be steady like Henry. It's to make Don see that he can't just step in to be the hero people used to assume he was because he looked the part.

But that doesn't mean that Don will follow either Betty or Sally's plans. I remember Weiner alluding to this on the commentary to the last ep. When Roger says something to Joan about how Kevin is his son and so he's allowed to give him money or something like that Weiner made some comment about how yes, that is true in a way that obviously meant to say that Don, too, gets a say in what he wants to give to his children. Iow, we shouldn't just take it as a given that he wouldn't become their primary caregiver just because Sally thinks they should be with Henry and Betty with Mark and his wife.

[Umbelina]

You know, I am a DVD extras and commentary junkie, but I had a very hard time listening to Weiner in the final season.  What he said I was seeing and what I actually was seeing seemed like two different shows.

IIRC (haven't watched the DVD's in a while) the second to last season had NO extras, at least I don't think it did.  Then, again IIRC the final season was all Weiner.  ???  I should just go look, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone here knows.

In contrast to those, and others, I have to say the best extras/commentary on every episode are on Vince Gilligan's shows, Breaking Bad, and now Better Call Saul.  He's so gracious, and they are funny, informative, and he has so much respect for the audience.  He said a couple of times, including on one I watched last night, "After we turn it over to our audience, their opinion of what they watched is just as valid as our intentions in making it.  Sometimes they're even better."  He will add things he was thinking of, or, things he hoped for a character (for example, that Jesse makes it out and lives a life) but said says that if someone else thinks that isn't possible, it's just as true as any opinion he or any writer has.

Night and Day in Showrunner attitudes between MM and BB.  Vince also likes improvs and opinions from his actors, when Mathew famously won't even let someone cough if it's not scripted, and has such specific directions written into each script that when a foot moves, or a hair is brushed out of the way?  He wrote it, and no one is allowed to change a syllable of any script, ever.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I just realized why they had to kill off Anna, dang, I'm slow.  

To me, it was quite clear. 

First, Don's immediate reaction to Anna's death. If you know that your relative or friend is going to die and they are going to tell it by phone, you answer the phone rightaway. Don's reaction just isn't normal. Although one of course understands its reason (Anna is the only one who knows him and loves him), it tells volumes of Don's habit to avoid to meet things that cause him pain - only, this time he finally can't.

Second, Anna's death brings Stephanie's role important in final season. Don tries to "save" and "protect" him as he saved and protected Anna, but Stephanie refuses to be saved by anybody.

BTV, why exactly was Anna the only person who always loved Don, saw him (only) as the best light and treated him with kindness? Wouldn't it have been more natural that, even if she had taken Don's money as compensation for keeping silent that Don had stealed her husband's identity, she would have been angry towards him because of her husband's death ("Even if it was an accident, why had my husband to die and not you") and refused to have nothing to do with him?

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

In contrast to those, and others, I have to say the best extras/commentary on every episode are on Vince Gilligan's shows, Breaking Bad, and now Better Call Saul.  He's so gracious, and they are funny, informative, and he has so much respect for the audience.  He said a couple of times, including on one I watched last night, "After we turn it over to our audience, their opinion of what they watched is just as valid as our intentions in making it.  Sometimes they're even better."  He will add things he was thinking of, or, things he hoped for a character (for example, that Jesse makes it out and lives a life) but said says that if someone else thinks that isn't possible, it's just as true as any opinion he or any writer has.

Vince is so right!

If the audience doesn't see f.ex. that X is in love, it's no good for the writer to explain that it was his/her aim.    

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

BTV, why exactly was Anna the only person who always loved Don, saw him (only) as the best light and treated him with kindness? Wouldn't it have been more natural that, even if she had taken Don's money as compensation for keeping silent that Don had stealed her husband's identity, she would have been angry towards him because of her husband's death ("Even if it was an accident, why had my husband to die and not you") and refused to have nothing to do with him?

I think this was always meant to be something really unusual about Anna. Probably because of something in her own life, she just naturally felt a connection to a guy who would steal someone else's identity that way because they wanted to escape. Iirc, there was some hint that the real Don Draper wanted to marry her sister instead of her, and plus maybe it was something about her disability that made her always feel out of place or something. But Don certainly expected the woman to be angry at him and the fact that she wasn't was like a miracle to him. 

[Domestic Assassin]

IIRC when she first tracked Don down and followed him to his apartment, Anna had a line like "What did he make you do?" that implied that she already had negative feelings about the real Don.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

IIRC when she first tracked Don down and followed him to his apartment, Anna had a line like "What did he make you do?" that implied that she already had negative feelings about the real Don.

And when she tracked him down she was expecting to confront her real husband she thought had run off. She seemed to take it as a given that her husband didn't want to be married to her. That's I think partly what gave me the impression that she would get a kick out of some kid grabbing Don's name to escape his own family who didn't think much of him.

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:07 PM, Umbelina said:

I'll touch on Joan.  Joan is the biggest stereotype of the entire show.  Pretty much read Helen Gurly Brown's book, and Cosmopolitan Magazine of her era, add in aging, and she follows the script for a smart woman with giant boobs and a pretty face.  Her cheating was "the thing" for a woman like her at that time, given her circumstances.  Then, thankfully, at the very last second, after wanting to move beyond the advantages of her aging big boobs get you anywhere life and hey guys, I have a brain and know this damn business better than most of you! moments?

She evolves, she turns the tables, and with her child, and connections and brains, she rejects the easy life of marrying a rich guy and chilling, and embarks on her own career with her own terms.  (She skipped several decades there, but good for her.)

Joan was presented as a woman who wanted to have lots of fun before she settled down and knew how to use her sexuality for her advantage (I mean gitfts Roger gave her, not that awful Jaguar guy that was suggested by Pete. But her fate also showed that women were in a different situation in having sex than men. As a single girl Joan had had two abortions (presumably before the pill in the 50ies) and when she was married, she got pregnant from Roger because they sudden life-affirming sex after being robbed (presumably she didn't use the pill then because she tried to get pregnant by her husband when he was on leave from the army). Her original decision was abortion but in the last minute she retreated and decided to use that old trick by presenting the child as her husband's. Which he accepted - but could still leave the child as easily as his wife. (Yeah, he met the baby only on one leave, but still - what a jerk. Compared to Greg, Don was a paragon of father.) 

All in all Joan shows that great liberator of women, the pill, liberated men even more.

I think it was great that the show dealt the theme of unwanted pregnancy in so many ways. Peggy was single and chose adoption because she put her career first and didn't want to suffer of "one mistake" her whole life (and no doubt the child would have suffered, too, whether Peggy had said aloud that "you destroyed my life" or only thought so). A mother of two children, Betty, was married but separated from her husband and thought about abortion but took Don back. Megan got miscarriage before she had time to decide what to do - and before she even told to her husband. At that Don said that he "wanted the same as you", but later suggested to have a baby but Megan refused because her acting career.)

Compared these unwanted pregnancies, it was sad that just Trudy who so much wanted a child, had so much difficulties to get one. And Pete wasn't actually supporting and refused to adopt. Finally they got a baby and on the basis of what was shown to us, Trudy genuinely liked to be at home (unlike Joan and Betty) raising her daughter even if it was tiring in the beginning.

Oh, I almost forgot Stephanie who also got pregnat as singe and gave away the child she had no means and abilities to take care of.

[Inquisitionist]

On 7/9/2019 at 1:52 PM, Domestic Assassin said:

IIRC when she first tracked Don down and followed him to his apartment, Anna had a line like "What did he make you do?" that implied that she already had negative feelings about the real Don.

Just found the scene, in The Mountain King, and line is "I don't care what he asked you to do.  I need to know."  So she did wonder, at least momentarily, if the real Don was in on some scam.

[Umbelina]

Yes, Joan lived the Sex and the Single Girl life (Helen Gurly Brown's book.)  Including using sex to get ahead in business, along with your brains.  I'm sure Roger was very helpful.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, Joan lived the Sex and the Single Girl life (Helen Gurly Brown's book.)  Including using sex to get ahead in business, along with your brains.  I'm sure Roger was very helpful.

Roger gave Joan expensive gifts but, although he did invite Joan back to work, he didn't exactly help her to get a head in business. She was a secretary until she was pimped by Pete and persuaded to accept by Lane. She said finally yes (and could have said no) but in the last analysis it was more men who used her sexuality in business.

But luckily she was never actually forced. Cf. Pete who "helped" that poor German au pair and then insisted that she must pay for sex. 

BTV, I remember that Joan once said to the future "Buddha-man" (I can't now remember his name) that he was a babbler. Evidently they had had sex but he had talked about it to others and she never forgave him that. 

Also Peggy hinted to Joan that she had a "reputation" (a woman who searches for a husband and to have fun - but not in that order). Yet Peggy wasn't later sure whether Joan and Roger had had an affair.   

[izabella]

On 7/7/2019 at 12:45 PM, sistermagpie said:

I like that the show really seemed to feel the same way. Like Joan says about the man in the bar, he probably has someone at home whose only crime is being familiar. The characters seem to swing between wanting something new and exciting where the other person doesn't know all their flaws and wanting to be known and accepted for who they are. In the end I feel like the show itself makes a case for saying that the better relationships are the ones where the flaws are known and that you destroy that through disrespect (i.e., lying and cheating).

I've always thought Joan and Don had an interesting relationship.  After some episodes, like the ones where Don and Joan share a drink at a bar, I was left wondering if they would become a couple at some point but they never went there.  I wouldn't want to inflict her with Don since he would, of course, cheat on her.   At the same time, I liked them together and would have enjoyed them exploring that relationship more.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, izabella said:

I've always thought Joan and Don had an interesting relationship.  After some episodes, like the ones where Don and Joan share a drink at a bar, I was left wondering if they would become a couple at some point but they never went there.  I wouldn't want to inflict her with Don since he would, of course, cheat on her.   At the same time, I liked them together and would have enjoyed them exploring that relationship more.

To me, just their easiness together showed that they wouldn't become a couple despite being the most sexually charismatic people in the show.

When Don and Betty slept together in the camp, Don said that he couldn't understand why sex was connected with intimacy to many people. They were most intimate then, but othewise, as have been said here, his most intimate relationships were with women he never had sexual relationship. 

Joan had a long affair with Roger who was married but that was "easy". But Joan never wanted to harm Mona who evidently silently accepted her husband's philandeering whereas Betty didn't know of it. 

 As a husband of Betty, in his affairs outside the office, Don clearly wanted to prove different kind of women with whom he could be "somebody else" than in the office and at home - he couldn't do that with Joan who knew him.

Don was keen to court trouble during his marriages: Sally's teacher Suzanne, the client's wife Bobbie and the neigbor's wife Sylvia. 

Don's affairs in the office happened when he was divorced from Betty. The one-night-stand with his secretary Allison showed sheer drunked stupidness as that kind of woman never could just forget. Promoting Megan after she became his wife wasn't a brilliant idea, either.  

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, izabella said:

I've always thought Joan and Don had an interesting relationship.  After some episodes, like the ones where Don and Joan share a drink at a bar, I was left wondering if they would become a couple at some point but they never went there.  I wouldn't want to inflict her with Don since he would, of course, cheat on her.   At the same time, I liked them together and would have enjoyed them exploring that relationship more.

That episode has become a favorite of mine to re-watch. From watching it I think the show knows that any time Joan and Don get near each other there's got to be some tension raised since they're basically the alpha male and female of the office, both essentially 1950s movie stars walked off the screen and onto Madison Avenue. They obviously also get that about each other too, so when they talk to each other in situations like this there's a big understanding there. You realize they don't really work as a couple so much as they're like two monarchs of allied countries.

Yet in the office, as a man, Don gets more power and that's the thing that makes Joan actually angry.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yet in the office, as a man, Don gets more power and that's the thing that makes Joan actually angry.

The thing that made Joan ANGRY is that Don got drunk, and did it "his way" and cost her a fortune.  Joan needed that money for many reasons, including that it was probably her only chance at getting money like that (aside from marriage, which obviously was a disaster for her.)

Don, a man, could always go out and make more money.  Joan, getting older, a single mother, didn't get to take the kinds of risks Don took regularly, but this wasn't even done as a "risk" it was just hubris.  Hubris that took millions from her (in today's money.)

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The thing that made Joan ANGRY is that Don got drunk, and did it "his way" and cost her a fortune.  Joan needed that money for many reasons, including that it was probably her only chance at getting money like that (aside from marriage, which obviously was a disaster for her.)

Right, that's what I was thinking about. She for good reason was furious at Don being able to follow a whim at work and decide her life. Although of course Don's career would never exist as it does without him being a man.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Although of course Don's career would never exist as it does without him being a man.

No doubt, but Don had also exceptional talents, charm and persuasion which made possible for him to succeed. He had no such benefits inherited in birth or created by marriage than Roger and Pete had. He was a self-made man - and not a bit also a con man considering the way he got Roger to hire him or claim Roger had done so. Many qualities that were Don's weaknesses in his private life were his strength in his professional life.

Michael Ginsburg had also talents and, while himself afraid of sex, he could create ads with sexual sub text. But he couldn't stand stress and uncertainty in ad business because own psychological weaknesses. 

As for Joan, maybe her beauty that she believed to be her asset was also a handicap. For a long time she seemed to be content to be a secretary and have fun while her long-time goal in life was to marry well. She couldn't at all undestand that Peggy really wanted a career. 

Instead Peggy, a nice-looking youg woman but no beauty, was spared from marriage proposals and could concentrate on her career while of course needing men to help her (Freddy, Don, Ted).

Instead, Joan first found no such man (TV ads), then was pimped by Pete and Lane, was sidelined by Ted and had to do a dirty trick to Pete.

Happily, Joan finally found her strength other than sex whereas pretty girls Jane and Megan who married wealthy men didn't although getting money.   

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No doubt, but Don had also exceptional talents, charm and persuasion which made possible for him to succeed. He had no such benefits inherited in birth or created by marriage than Roger and Pete had. He was a self-made man - and not a bit also a con man considering the way he got Roger to hire him or claim Roger had done so. Many qualities that were Don's weaknesses in his private life were his strength in his professional life. 

Yes, Don clearly had the talent to do his job and do it better than most. One place where he's not a fraud at all is as a copy writer. Nobody would, I think, ever say that he's not earning his keep. But if he'd been a woman and just as good as what he does, he wouldn't have gotten the job the way he did. It's not a coincidence that all the executives we meet in 1960 are men--white men. If Joan were a man she'd absolutely have been in an executive position by the time we meet her, but as a woman she's limited to administrative work.

Of course, Joan herself had embraced that path. She claimed she didn't want anything but a rich husband and wasn't trying to become the first woman executive or anything. She wasn't Peggy. But Joan was also taught to believe this was what she should want in ways Don wasn't. She seemed to be in some real denial about what she really wanted for a long time.

That's why I always really like Don's conversation with Suzanne's brother. Don's telling him how he make his life into what he wants--it's advice that Don himself believes and he gives to other people a lot. He came from nothing and changed his life and these other people can too. But Suzanne's brother points out that he's always going to have a seizure disorder and his disability is always going to limit him in the eyes of others. There were doors that were open to Don that weren't open to others.

[txhorns79]

23 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No doubt, but Don had also exceptional talents, charm and persuasion which made possible for him to succeed. He had no such benefits inherited in birth or created by marriage than Roger and Pete had. He was a self-made man - and not a bit also a con man considering the way he got Roger to hire him or claim Roger had done so. Many qualities that were Don's weaknesses in his private life were his strength in his professional life.

Don was quasi-self made.  Without his fake identity and Anna's willingness to go along with his stealing the real Dick's identity, he could easily have ended up in a military brig for desertion, and had that lead to a dishonorable discharge.  I do agree though that Don was very talented, and obviously had a flare for copy writing. 

23 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As for Joan, maybe her beauty that she believed to be her asset was also a handicap. For a long time she seemed to be content to be a secretary and have fun while her long-time goal in life was to marry well. She couldn't at all undestand that Peggy really wanted a career. 

In fairness, Joan was the office manager, not a secretary.  I think it was even that way at Sterling Cooper.  She was sometimes called on to do secretarial work, but she was in charge of the pool, rather than one of them.   

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Don was quasi-self made.  Without his fake identity and Anna's willingness to go along with his stealing the real Dick's identity, he could easily have ended up in a military brig for desertion, and had that lead to a dishonorable discharge. 

Yes, but isn't just there something essentially American? All immigrants had to leave their old identity behind and create a new one. Some fled injustice and persecution but others had themselves done something they fled. Many changed their names in order to conceal their origins and to be accepted. Some send money to their wives and children so that they could travel to them, but others simply left their family (without divorce) and formed a new one.

Also, just as Don created his new identity from clothes to his family with Betty, he created ads whose essential messege was that "pursuing happiness" was reached by buying things. It was no coincidence that his Kodak ad was based on happy pictures about his family - and that was in  the same time when he himself behaved in a way that was going to destroy his family. 

[Roseanna]

Continueing:

To me, Don's desertation wasn't a big deal - he didn't leave his comrades in stick nor kill POVs as those veterans he met. As far as I understand, the death of real Don Draper was an accident. Stealing his identity didn't actually hurt anybody.

Although he was for these deeds guilty before law, morally he was guilty for hurting for his kid brother, first by vanishing for years and then by refusing to let him to be a part of his life. That he also felt guilty was is shown that he saw Adam under narcosis when his teeth was taken away.    

[Umbelina]

On 7/15/2019 at 4:37 AM, txhorns79 said:

Don was quasi-self made.  Without his fake identity and Anna's willingness to go along with his stealing the real Dick's identity, he could easily have ended up in a military brig for desertion, and had that lead to a dishonorable discharge.  I do agree though that Don was very talented, and obviously had a flare for copy writing. 

In fairness, Joan was the office manager, not a secretary.  I think it was even that way at Sterling Cooper.  She was sometimes called on to do secretarial work, but she was in charge of the pool, rather than one of them.   

I think Joan probably started as a secretary though, and it makes logical sense to me that her relationship with Roger Sterling helped get her the job of office manager, along with her talents.

Don stealing a dead man's identity was all his actions, so in that way, he made himself as well.  The dead man's identity kept him from being shot or imprisoned for desertion, but it had nothing to do with his career.