Mad Men - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

I was just watching The Rejected, the one with the focus group about Ponds. The focus group makes Faye tell Don that Peggy's ideas about rituals are wrong, the girls just want Ponds to make them pretty so they can get married, like old-fashioned Freddy says. Don, thankfully, says he doesn't care, that he's going for something new.

I don't know if anybody else has seen it, but recently there's been this slew of articles of women talking about how important skin care is as a ritual. Like for some women it's their main indulgence, they get obsessed about it, and the reason behind it really is what Peggy says, that it's an indulgence, a time when she can stare at herself in the mirror for 20 minutes without feeling vain, a ritual with many steps that's so enjoyable etc.

Not that this idea is new to 2018 at all--these women writing articles are often at the extreme end of the scale and just happen to be talking about it in articles now. But Don is totally right about how he's seeing Ponds here. The women in the focus group might talk about boyfriends, but the skin care really is--and probably was even then--actually more about the ritual they performed for themselves. At that time it was probably not something women would have ever articulated, though, because it's in some ways a feminist idea to admit that women do this stuff for themselves or to share with other women. Really Megan's story about skin care is the most compelling (even if it's total bullshit that her mother never uses soap because make up) because she actually is the person who tells it as a ritual, one that Megan herself watches and enjoys. The other women, ironically, are even backing her up by talking about how it seems like whatever they do doesn't matter to the guy. Iow, cold cream isn't going to catch you a man either way--it's not for him.

So basically just saying that on this watch I noticed the show not only made a little feminist point but showed Don and Peggy being ahead of the game in advertising and how people think. (It also actually validates Freddy's point in the earlier episode where he claims that young women look up to older women about these things, but he misunderstands how they look up to them. Freddy mistakenly thinks a 20-year-old in 1964 would look up to Doris Day for tips on how to catch a husband or dress, but really it's more about tiny Megan watching her beautiful mother's rituals and one day creating her own.)

[ivygirl]

I 100% co-sign Peggy’s angle as well. Skin care as woman’s ritual is spot on; and cold cream is not about putting something on for men to see (in fact, wasn’t the old joke that it freaked men out and was a turn off?), it’s about removing the residue of the day and transitioning to a period of relaxing and inhabiting your personal and private space once again. And your connection to the modern obsession with 10-step beauty rituals and such is a good one. No one knows that your face mask smells like watermelon or your moisturizer has a fun jelly feel or your cleanser has a cooling effect or that your makeup remover takes off makeup in one swipe or that you used 10 luxury products to take care of your skin... except you. It’s all part of the user’s enjoyment. You’re taking care of yourself, not putting something on to enhance your beauty or cover something up.

Zit cream? Yeah, sell that by manipulating teenagers’ anxiety about their peers’ opinions ;) Anti-aging products, same deal. But Ponds (and the modern equivalent)—yeah, I see the “ritual” angle playing well. (And yes, Megan’s line about her mother only using water is 99.9% implausible. After seeing this episode for the first time, I googled to see if removing makeup with only water was possible—it is, sort of, but only if you use a special cloth... or if you’re willing to leave residue behind.)

Also, back then I think young women were more likely to look to their mothers for beauty advice. (Even in my teenage years in the 80s and 90s, many ads for skin care products still talked about things like using the stuff your mother trusted.) Now it’s more about being on trend.

Edited February 12, 2018 by ivygirl

[small potatoes]

On 2/10/2018 at 11:13 PM, ivygirl said:

It’s entirely possible that I’m seeing more than what’s there—I certainly just thought of the scene as evidence of Pare’s mediocrity the first several times I saw this episode—but I guess it was the juxtaposition of Betty being “improper” (drinking the raw milk straight out of the bucket) and vulnerable (wondering to Henry if her kids really loved her) against Megan, deteriorating as an actress out in LA, probably wondering if *Don* really loved her... that speech seemed like something she’d mentally rehearsed and was just waiting to say at the first hint of criticism or other negative comments/behavior from Don directed at her.

Another example of a mentally rehearsed speech occurs in Severance when they meet in the lawyer's office and Megan tries to act like the injured party. 

[ivygirl]

I rewatched Waterloo (again) the other day and I think it actually has one of Megan’s (well, rather, Jessica Pare’s) best moments: when Don calls to tell her what’s happened, and at the end she just says: “Don.” And she hits all the right notes. 

I love that episode and I always notice or observe at least one new thing on each watch. This time, that “Don” really stood out to me in a good way.

[film noire]

On 11/16/2017 at 2:35 PM, qtpye said:

 He was almost treating her like gum stuck on his shoe...something he could not wait to be rid of.

I know the feeling.

[qtpye]

On 2/16/2018 at 8:56 PM, small potatoes said:

Another example of a mentally rehearsed speech occurs in Severance when they meet in the lawyer's office and Megan tries to act like the injured party. 

Good lord, Megan knowingly married a man well known for his bad habits and did enjoy the financial security he brought her.  The truth was Megan was a failed actress/secretary when Don met her and the marriage had actually given her the only big break she had...when she forced Don to cast her in a commercial and that lead to a part on the soap opera.  For Megan to act like such a wounded bird at the lawyer's office was insufferable.  Betty had no idea about Don's past and his cheating ways, but Megan went in with her eyes fully open.  Heck, Don was still dating Faye when he got with Megan.  I hated that Don gave her the money so easily, she really was being annoying and got rewarded for her pouting.

[small potatoes]

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

Good lord, Megan knowingly married a man well known for his bad habits and did enjoy the financial security he brought her.  The truth was Megan was a failed actress/secretary when Don met her and the marriage had actually given her the only big break she had...when she forced Don to cast her in a commercial and that lead to a part on the soap opera.  For Megan to act like such a wounded bird at the lawyer's office was insufferable.  Betty had no idea about Don's past and his cheating ways, but Megan went in with her eyes fully open.  Heck, Don was still dating Faye when he got with Megan. 

Yeah. I think it's important to acknowledge this. It's not like Don robbed her of her youth and innocence. 

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

I hated that Don gave her the money so easily, she really was being annoying and got rewarded for her pouting.

I disagree. I don't think he rewarded her for pouting, or simply out of guilt. I think he straight up paid for her services, with a generous bonus. It was Severance pay. 

[small potatoes]

On 2/11/2018 at 8:58 AM, sistermagpie said:

Because a lot of Don and Megan's marriage was so performative it would make sense if Megan sees the guy drifting away and doesn't know what to do since she never really got to know him deeply, and falls back on dramatic cliches that she can at least understand. It's not really that different from the start of their relationship. They're just playing a series of scenes to fill in for the actual intimacy that isn't there.

I like your use of "performative" in this context, and your description of the marriage. 

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, small potatoes said:

Yeah. I think it's important to acknowledge this. It's not like Don robbed her of her youth and innocence. 

I disagree. I don't think he rewarded her for pouting, or simply out of guilt. I think he straight up paid for her services, with a generous bonus. It was Severance pay. 

Megan walked away from the marriage better off then she came in...you can not say the same from Betty.  Then again Betty and Don were much closer to a real marriage and might have worked if had not tried to emotionally block her.

[Guest]

This show is so incredible. I hadn’t watched it for a while, and then yesterday I caught half of an episode on tv, so that left me no choice but to binge watch it all night once the kids were aslee. Even the second half of season 7 which I didn’t like much at the time is so superior to most of what I see on tv. The dialogue, the acting, etc

[txhorns79]

Quote

The truth was Megan was a failed actress/secretary when Don met her and the marriage had actually given her the only big break she had...when she forced Don to cast her in a commercial and that lead to a part on the soap opera.  For Megan to act like such a wounded bird at the lawyer's office was insufferable.  Betty had no idea about Don's past and his cheating ways, but Megan went in with her eyes fully open.  Heck, Don was still dating Faye when he got with Megan.  I hated that Don gave her the money so easily, she really was being annoying and got rewarded for her pouting.

I didn't feel sorry for Megan in the end, but I did think Don let her down in various ways.  The months long deception regarding his being put on leave from SC&P was pretty unforgivable.  Just remember, he had a whole system in place to keep Megan from finding out, and she was essentially right that he could have been with her during that period if he wanted, but he chose to leave her alone.  I think she had things to be legitimately angry about with him, so I didn't view her as pouting, even though she was being very dramatic.    

Edited March 8, 2018 by txhorns79

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think she had things to be legitimately angry about with him, so I didn't view her as pouting, even though she was being very dramatic.    

True--but I think another reason feel less sympathy for her is that she doesn't really seem to be angry about those things in that scene. In the scene where she finds out about his deception she's reacting to that, but in the later scene she's just, iirc, had a demoralizing day with her family and a disastrous lunch with Harry Crane. So I remember feeling at the time that she was taking out her bitterness about her life on Don. Like he was a symbol of how everything turned tawdry (all the smiles turning to smirks one might say) in her life and his betrayals mirroring everyone else's betrayals. So if she's thinking of the specific things he did it seems like she's seeing them in that context. 

And then she herself goes full tawdry and accepts a pay-off as if the whole situation was a demeaning job. (Not that I wouldn't have taken the money too!)

[small potatoes]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And then she herself goes full tawdry and accepts a pay-off as if the whole situation was a demeaning job.

Well, the whole situation was a demeaning job, except that I would call it a position, and I'm not sure how demeaning it was. Better yet, I would call the marriage a business partnership, one in which Don ultimately felt Megan deserved her share of the profits in addition to the many benefits she had already received. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by small potatoes

[voiceover]

Today was "Indian Summer", where Mona blasts Bert with one pithy, deadly putdown.  Talia Balsam is so perfect in every episode she's in!  She's one of those occasional-cameo performers -- like Benjamin Bratt's Javier in Modern Family -- who I'll watch for specifically.

[voiceover]

Watching "Out of Town", and Joan's takedown of John, Lane's assistant, over the Burt Peterson aftershocks. 

This is GoodJoan at her very, very best ("...and a truck is a 'lorry' and an elevator is a 'lift'...").

[Melancholy]

Love that. I'm on early S3 in my rewatch with my boyfriend (as he watches for the first time.) More Out of Town notes:

In Ladies Room, Don puts off Roger's interest in his origin story with a glib "Just think of me as Moses. I was a baby in a basket." In the flashbacks, we learn that Don *was* a baby in a basket handed off. The identity dark humor continues in this episode when Don insults William- "He borrowed my luggage to go to Puerto Rico. But he never tires of putting his name on other people's things." 

I don't think anyone told Little Dick Whitman the detail about how Archie couldn't afford a condom as well as the paid sex so Dick's birth mother let it slide. I think Don with his both mercurial and filthy imagination fanwanked his own conception, perhaps if the working girls around him in his teen years had a condom pre-requisite. 

Love the way the pilot also leans into Don's yarn about being a G-Man. I mean, of course the stewardesses are going to be fascinated with him. But it's funny that he grabs the attention of the pilot too. 

"Felt self-conscious there for a moment. We're the only ones without a uniform." Fanwank: Sal went on to illustrate and provide the captions for New Yorker cartoons. Also much love for "Shelly, it's been swelly." I also think in the hands of a less excellent actor than Byran Batt, the scene with the bellhop could have been ridiculous. Like, the plot for a porno stuck into a drama series. "The bellhop seduces the business man!" But BB works such longing and desperation into his performance that Sal's story remains tragic more than titillating. 

"London Fog is a 40-year-old brand that sounds like it's existed forever. You've established, with our help, that it means one thing, raincoats. New products aside, there will be fat years and there will be lean years, but it is going to rain." I love this line as artful sales. Never let the common tropes of money go to waste- tie it in with the product being sold. 

The last scene with Lane and Mr. Hooker is excellent. It feels like very British shade for Lane to cooly disagree with Mr. Hooker's eagerness in both disparaging SC and show off his education with the "This place is a GYN-ocracy" pretensions. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Melancholy said:

"The bellhop seduces the business man!" But BB works such longing and desperation into his performance that Sal's story remains tragic more than titillating. 

I remember seeing that one for the first time and I was amazed at how important the scene came across for Sal. I mean, we know that Sal's always denied himself this (or at least he usually does, I guess we don't know for sure) and it was so heartbreaking how thrilled he was at actually experiencing it. 

11 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I don't think anyone told Little Dick Whitman the detail about how Archie couldn't afford a condom as well as the paid sex so Dick's birth mother let it slide. I think Don with his both mercurial and filthy imagination fanwanked his own conception, perhaps if the working girls around him in his teen years had a condom pre-requisite. 

 

I always wondered about this too. Don's got a powerful imagination and as we see here in his story, he's great at coming up with whole characters and situations to fit the mood he's trying to create. So yes, I can totally see him adding details to his backstory that may or may not be true, but is his own personal head canon. Then he also throws in another birth story with the Moses story--I'll bet Don hasn't ever been able to help being sort of drawn to stories of children like that.

12 hours ago, Melancholy said:

"He borrowed my luggage to go to Puerto Rico. But he never tires of putting his name on other people's things." 

LOL! I love that dig at William (who DOES that?). And now I realize it's also funny that Don put somebody else's name and all his things. (Including on William's sister, as Betty will remind him in Gypsy and the Hobo.)

Btw, I recently was re-watching Mystery Date, which I really love, and I'm always so thrilled with that scene where Joan kicks Greg to the curb. In terms of kick-out scenes I'm sure a lot of people's favorite is Trudy's I WILL DESTROY YOU speech, but that's a scene about a couple that still love each other. Joan's is more scorched earth and she just lays it out how over it is and how little she cares about what Greg does now that he's killed it. My two favorite lines is when he says they need him in Vietnam and she says "Then it works out, because we don't." And also when she says, "I'm glad the army makes you feel like a man. Because I'm sick of trying to do it." That is the greatest sum-up of their entire relationship ever.

[Melancholy]

Joan is excellent in Mystery Date too. I also love when Greg is whining-yelling that Joan would be supporting him re-enlisting if the Vietnam War was WWII. CH has a great “furious with the stupidity of this argument about how their present family dynamic should be evaluated in the context of pretending the Vietnam War = WWII” tone. “Soldiers wanted to come home from World War II also.” Awesome. Also “Who goes back?! I will throw a parade for you everyday to thank you for preserving freedom!” Lol. 

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Joan is excellent in Mystery Date too. I also love when Greg is whining-yelling that Joan would be supporting him re-enlisting if the Vietnam War was WWII. CH has a great “furious with the stupidity of this argument about how their present family dynamic should be evaluated in the context of pretending the Vietnam War = WWII” tone. “Soldiers wanted to come home from World War II also.” Awesome. Also “Who goes back?! I will throw a parade for you everyday to thank you for preserving freedom!” Lol. 

I love how she nails the self-serving hypocrisy of the WWII argument. He's trying to say he's a hero so she should just admire him for wanting to fight. Joan doesn't fall into the trap of arguing that the Vietnam War is not as righteous. She just points out that leaving for war because you feel you have to make the sacrifice is not the same thing as leaving for war because you prefer not being at home and like wearing a uniform where people have to show you respect. 

[voiceover]

Another rewatch of my #1 ep: the Season 3 finale, "Shut the door. Have a seat."  The years that followed had moments of brilliance, and I never *didn't watch* (although most of the Megancentric eps never had my full attention).

But in a perfect world, this would have been the series finale, and it would have leapt over all others, to become arguably the best series finale of all time.

"December 13th, 1963: four guys shoot their own legs off!" Roger's tidy summary of the scene in Don's office, was also my favorite line of the series.

Every scene with Don and his colleagues went yard*: Don goading Bert! Don repairing his friendship with Roger!  Don admitting Pete was right! Don begging Peggy!  Christ, I always need a cigarette after.

And Don's smile as he looked around that hotel room, the day business began for the new SCDP, revealed the happiest Don we'd ever seen.  Or ever would see.

 

*baseball-ese for "home run"

[Michael231]

I don't know if i can put it here, but i couldn't discover any "fan made", etc. categories, and i am still not quite sure what's with the "unpopular opinion" 

Here, i've made fun of Zou Bisou Bisou, please don't fire me.

[Inquisitionist]

Ha, thanks for the laugh, Michael231!  I think you've finally made me appreciate that the producers were telling us who Megan really was right at the start of S5: a would-be performer who loves being the center of attention but is not really talented.  ;-)

[small potatoes]

14 hours ago, voiceover said:

But in a perfect world, this would have been the series finale, and it would have leapt over all others, to become arguably the best series finale of all time.

I agree. It would have made a great finale. 

[Melancholy]

Recently watched The Fog. Interesting that Duck thought Pete and Peggy had an alliance and that was behind getting rid of Freddy so Peggy could move up. Obviously, there was no alliance because Peggy didn't want Freddy fired and felt badly when he was fired. However, it brings up a question- was Pete partly interested in getting rid of Freddy so Peggy could move up? At first read, Six Month Leave plays as Pete pushed to get rid of Freddy because (a) he was disgusted and infuriated with Freddy's alcoholism disturbing an important client meeting in a spectacularly gross way and (b) Pete saw a career advantage for himself in being a tattle-tale to Duck.

When Peggy angrily confronts Pete about getting rid of Freddy, Pete says that he helped both of their careers. However when I watched Six Month Leave for the first (and second...and third time), I called bullshit that Pete was out to help Peggy's career then because (a) Peggy was chasing him down angrily and it seems likely that Pete would want to mollify her and (b) only recently, Pete resented that Peggy was made a copywriter at all, let alone that he'd engineer Freddy's departure to make her a *senior* copywriter. 

However, here's Duck recognizing Pete as helping Peggy's career in The Fog...just as Pete claimed in Six Month Leave. And Pete was undoubtedly supportive and helpful to Peggy's career later in the series. Makes me wonder if Pete's first gesture of support and approval of Peggy's career wasn't the standard benevolent gesture or even nice compliment, but opportunistically seizing on a chance to get rid of Freddy. LOL.  

[voiceover]

Okay, it's happened, and I'm here to confess it.

I've been an outspoken Megan-hater, me; practically from the beginning; it was certainly sealed when Don proposed, proving that he was incapable of change.

And now...

Must be the 5th? 6th? Audience Channel rewatch right now, and it struck me: I'm finally on her side.  I like her, in fact!  And I hate him more, for his shitty treatment of her (the affair with Sylvia & especially the asshole reax to her soap opera career).

Sorry Jessica.  In addition to your striking beauty (eh, I always thought she was a stunner), you did a fine job in a thankless role.  Took me awhile to applaud you, but I'm here.

Oh, and Don?  Go fuck yourself.

[VCRTracking]

On 6/2/2018 at 11:36 PM, voiceover said:

Okay, it's happened, and I'm here to confess it.

I've been an outspoken Megan-hater, me; practically from the beginning; it was certainly sealed when Don proposed, proving that he was incapable of change.

And now...

Must be the 5th? 6th? Audience Channel rewatch right now, and it struck me: I'm finally on her side.  I like her, in fact!  And I hate him more, for his shitty treatment of her (the affair with Sylvia & especially the asshole reax to her soap opera career).

Sorry Jessica.  In addition to your striking beauty (eh, I always thought she was a stunner), you did a fine job in a thankless role.  Took me awhile to applaud you, but I'm here.

Oh, and Don?  Go fuck yourself.

Somewhere Matt Weiner just went "Finally!"

On 4/19/2018 at 1:23 AM, voiceover said:

Another rewatch of my #1 ep: the Season 3 finale, "Shut the door. Have a seat."  The years that followed had moments of brilliance, and I never *didn't watch* (although most of the Megancentric eps never had my full attention).

But in a perfect world, this would have been the series finale, and it would have leapt over all others, to become arguably the best series finale of all time.

On 4/19/2018 at 4:24 PM, small potatoes said:

I agree. It would have made a great finale. 

I love it but it's like the Season 3 finale of LOST "Through the Looking Glass". A fantastic episode but it made me want to see more. If the 60s had continued to be like the 50s I think the new SCDP would have done okay. However in the last season episode "Lost Horizon" in the now empty offices SCDP, Roger, the ex Navy man compared it to a "hell of a boat". They had no idea the huge storm the rest of the decade was going to be when they launched her.  The JFK assassination, which I and many had assumed would've been the subject of the season finale instead of the penultimate episode would be the start of it all as

Roger Ebert said in his review of American Graffiti:
 

Quote

 

When I went to see George Lucas’s “American Graffiti” that whole world -- a world that now seems incomparably distant and innocent -- was brought back with a rush of feeling that wasn’t so much nostalgia as culture shock. Remembering my high school generation, I can only wonder at how unprepared we were for the loss of innocence that took place in America with the series of hammer blows beginning with the assassination of President Kennedy.

The great divide was November 22, 1963,and nothing was ever the same again. The teenagers in “American Graffiti” are, in a sense, like that cartoon character in the magazine ads: the one who gives the name of his insurance company, unaware that an avalanche is about to land on him. The options seemed so simple then: to go to college, or to stay home and look for a job and cruise Main Street and make the scene.

 

If they had ended with "The Suitcase" I would have had that feeling about the characters too.  One of the reasons I watched Mad Men was seeing how these characters would deal this incredible revolution in culture that happened during the 60s. I've always seen that era from a young person's perspective. In movies and TV shows made by Baby Boomers remembering their youth where it was exciting but never seen what it was like to be of an older generation as the world was changing around them. How would they adapt? The answers definitely surprised me.

Edited June 14, 2018 by VCRTracking

[small potatoes]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

One of the reasons I watched Mad Men was seeing how these characters would deal this incredible revolution in culture that happened during the 60s. I've always seen that era from a young person's perspective. In movies and TV shows made by Baby Boomers remembering their youth where it was exciting but never seen what it was like to be of an older generation as the world was changing around them. How would they adapt? The answers definitely surprised me.

Great post. I'm intrigued by your last paragraph. Aside from Roger liking acid, what were some of the adaptations that surprised you? 

[VCRTracking]

22 minutes ago, small potatoes said:

Great post. I'm intrigued by your last paragraph. Aside from Roger liking acid, what were some of the adaptations that surprised you? 

All of them, really.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The great divide was November 22, 1963,and nothing was ever the same again. The teenagers in “American Graffiti” are, in a sense, like that cartoon character in the magazine ads: the one who gives the name of his insurance company, unaware that an avalanche is about to land on him. The options seemed so simple then: to go to college, or to stay home and look for a job and cruise Main Street and make the scene.

I always find this bit of boomer myth making so interesting.  Within the series, it's obviously a big event in that it helps convince Betty to end the marriage for good, and leads to SCDP.  However, you look at the course of the 20th century, while the assassination is a milestone in terms of the decade, America seems to have had a number of moments where its innocence was lost and nothing was ever the same again.  I mean, I would personally argue events like the Great Depression or the bombing of Pearl Harbor were much more consequential.  I understand this is not that kind of debate, I just think people sometimes tend to treat the 60s as though nothing happened before and nothing happened after.        

[Neko]

On 6/2/2018 at 11:36 PM, voiceover said:

Okay, it's happened, and I'm here to confess it.

I've been an outspoken Megan-hater, me; practically from the beginning; it was certainly sealed when Don proposed, proving that he was incapable of change.

And now...

Must be the 5th? 6th? Audience Channel rewatch right now, and it struck me: I'm finally on her side.  I like her, in fact!  And I hate him more, for his shitty treatment of her (the affair with Sylvia & especially the asshole reax to her soap opera career).

Sorry Jessica.  In addition to your striking beauty (eh, I always thought she was a stunner), you did a fine job in a thankless role.  Took me awhile to applaud you, but I'm here.

Oh, and Don?  Go fuck yourself.

I have always been on Megan's side.  She wasn't a perfect angel, but she really didn't do anything wrong during her marriage to Don, and Don treated her horribly.  She didn't deserve it, and neither did Betty.  Don really knew how to ruin a woman's sunny disposition, didn't he? ;)

Edited June 18, 2018 by Sweet Summer Child

[film noire]

On 6/18/2018 at 7:01 AM, txhorns79 said:

  I mean, I would personally argue events like the Great Depression or the bombing of Pearl Harbor were much more consequential.  

I think the difference is that the Depression and Pearl Harbor caused people to ultimately remain invested in the government, whereas the fallout from the assassination was that the country developed a deep and abiding distrust of their own government. In 1960, the majority of Americans believed the U.S. government did the right thing most or all of the time (something they never again believed in such large numbers) and it wasn't the Depression or the war or Emmett Till that shook their faith  -- it took a magic bullet to do that.  Many people ended up seeing the world a lot more like Don:  don't trust the powers that be, look out for you and yours, and keep an eye out for the hobo code. 

Just rewatched The Better Half. I hate the silly stabbing arc for Peggy (feels slapsticky and false) but every part of Betty and Don is wonderful -- Betty and the map, the two of them singing Father Abraham with Bobby, Betty's post coital monologue, Don looking over at Betty with Henry the next morning, as he sits alone at his table --  I wish Weiner had given them at least one more year as a married-but-struggling couple, the show lost something profound when he separated them.

Edited July 7, 2018 by film noire

[sistermagpie]

On 6/18/2018 at 7:49 PM, Sweet Summer Child said:

I have always been on Megan's side.  She wasn't a perfect angel, but she really didn't do anything wrong during her marriage to Don, and Don treated her horribly.  She didn't deserve it, and neither did Betty.  Don really knew how to ruin a woman's sunny disposition, didn't he? ;)

Yeah, I never felt like Megan was any sort of a villain. At best she got the marriage anybody would have predicted--same as Roger and Jane, really. The only time I ever thought she was being unreasonable was when she seemed to think it was no biggie that she was going to start taking jobs where she'd be away for months at a time and this wasn't something that ever needed to have been discussed with her husband who married her when she worked 9 to 5.

But even then that would have applied more to a marriage where there weren't so many other problems. I mean, it was just par for the course that they didn't have the kind of foundation where they'd have worked stuff out and would have just expected the other person to be what they needed them to be.

I didn't feel sorry for her because it just seemed like the ratio of what she invested in the marriage and what she got out of it seemed pretty damn good. But she still put in the effort to make it work. She did nothing to justify any of Don's behavior except not be the magical creature he needed her to be, and I don't think the show ever tried to really present her as otherwise.

[TigerLynx]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 6:01 AM, txhorns79 said:

I always find this bit of boomer myth making so interesting.  Within the series, it's obviously a big event in that it helps convince Betty to end the marriage for good, and leads to SCDP.  However, you look at the course of the 20th century, while the assassination is a milestone in terms of the decade, America seems to have had a number of moments where its innocence was lost and nothing was ever the same again.  I mean, I would personally argue events like the Great Depression or the bombing of Pearl Harbor were much more consequential.  I understand this is not that kind of debate, I just think people sometimes tend to treat the 60s as though nothing happened before and nothing happened after.        

It might depend on how much of a history buff you are, and which generation you grew up in.  In the 1920s there were a lot of movements going on (like civil rights and women's rights) that were completely sidelined by the Great Depression and then WWII.

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:36 AM, film noire said:

Just rewatched The Better Half. I hate the silly stabbing arc for Peggy (feels slapsticky and false) but every part of Betty and Don is wonderful -- Betty and the map, the two of them singing Father Abraham with Bobby, Betty's post coital monologue, Don looking over at Betty with Henry the next morning, as he sits alone at his table --  I wish Weiner had given them at least one more year as a married-but-struggling couple, the show lost something profound when he separated them.

I was glad Betty dumped Don, but I agree the show lost something when Don and Betty divorced.  I like the scene of Don watching Betty and Henry.  That scene and Don on the phone with Betty when he finds out she has cancer, and says, "Birdie."  Say so much without saying anything.

[txhorns79]

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I was glad Betty dumped Don, but I agree the show lost something when Don and Betty divorced. 

I wouldn't say the show lost something, but I agree that the show did change considerably after Don and Betty ended things.  After the divorce, I think they struggled at times to keep Betty's storylines relevant to the overall show.   

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The only time I ever thought she was being unreasonable was when she seemed to think it was no biggie that she was going to start taking jobs where she'd be away for months at a time and this wasn't something that ever needed to have been discussed with her husband who married her when she worked 9 to 5.

 

I don't know.  I agree that they should discuss those things, but I also kind of think that having an unpredictable schedule goes with the territory of being an actor.  I do think Megan had a point in the argument where she said something to the extent that Don was happy for her to act so long as it didn't impose on him. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  I agree that they should discuss those things, but I also kind of think that having an unpredictable schedule goes with the territory of being an actor.  I do think Megan had a point in the argument where she said something to the extent that Don was happy for her to act so long as it didn't impose on him. 

Megan's certainly right on that score. Just to clarify, I didn't really feel sorry for Don like this was any real injustice toward him given what we know of Don. But he's not an actor himself and didn't have much practical experience with the life of an actor. He probably just thought that since she lived in New York where there was a lot of acting work she'd mostly work there. In fact, that's pretty much how her career worked out. She worked in New York when she lived there and worked (or didn't work) in LA when she worked there.

It just seemed like the one time when the conversation should have been more Megan laying out the reality and discussing it instead of saying it like it was something that was obvious to both of them from the start. Not that Don himself wasn't far more guilty of that sort of thing at times. It felt to me like Megan wanted to avoid the confrontation and so just slip it in hoping it wouldn't be a big deal--maybe she was afraid that if she brought it to him as a possibility she'd feel like she was asking permission that he could withhold or something.

[voiceover]

It's Season 1 time again.  Another jolt to see Don as young, and not worn down by booze, cigarettes, & life.

5G is the ep when Adam drops into his life.  Maybe because my last rewatch is so fresh in my mind, but man! how can you watch the scenes in the deli, and later in 5G, and know what you know about what effect this will have on Don -- and *not* be moved to tears?

Well: I wept, anyway.  If you've ever seen Thornton Wilder's Our Town, the last act is all about a recently-deceased character, allowed to visit a moment in her past.  She's advised not to go back to a significant moment -- like first love -- on the reasoning "It will be important enough!"   So she chooses her 12th birthday.  And is in agony, watching the carelessness with which those involved, lived that day.  

I thought about recently-deceased Don Draper, forced to watch himself cut a living bond to Dick Whitman.

Props to Jay Paulson who played Adam Whitman.  Just the right amount of hurt-puppy joy and frustration.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, voiceover said:

5G is the ep when Adam drops into his life.  Maybe because my last rewatch is so fresh in my mind, but man! how can you watch the scenes in the deli, and later in 5G, and know what you know about what effect this will have on Don -- and *not* be moved to tears?

Not me! And yes, props to Jay Paulson and both scenes because they're both easily memorable enough to carry over into later seasons where they're resonant. Not to mention that phone call where Don finds out what happened. Adam only appears in I think The Phantom as a ghost but you can't help but think of him in Commissions and Fees. He probably didn't connect him with Lane in the scene where he fires him, but later on I'm sure he did. I think Don was very good to Lane, but he still gave him money and told him that's all he could do for him, which would remind him of Adam.

[txhorns79]

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I think Don was very good to Lane, but he still gave him money and told him that's all he could do for him, which would remind him of Adam.

I agree.  I thought Don was incredibly generous to Lane, in giving him a cover to quietly resign and offering to pay back what Lane had stolen.  Just for some perspective, the $7,500.00 Lane stole in 1966 would be about $56,000.00 today, so try to imagine how many people in your life would just write off that debt for you like it was nothing.  And yes, I totally think Don thought of Adam when he found out that Lane had killed himself, and that was why Adam appeared again in The Phantom because he was already on Don's mind.  

Though I will say, I always thought the scenes with Adam were much more touching and still touch me today in a way that Lane's tragedy never did.  Maybe it was just because I saw Adam as an entirely innocent victim of Don and his lies, while Lane's situation was of his own making.   

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Though I will say, I always thought the scenes with Adam were much more touching and still touch me today in a way that Lane's tragedy never did.  Maybe it was just because I saw Adam as an entirely innocent victim of Don and his lies, while Lane's situation was of his own making.   

Oh yes, definitely. I mean, I was just recently again watching the scene with Don and Lane is mostly very resentful. I understand why he feels the way he does, but he's basically worked himself into a state where he clearly thinks it was okay for him to embezzle money because nobody gave him the money--money which he never asked for. Yet in this very scene Don gives it to him without a thought! Even his suicide note--the resignation letter--was a fuck you to the partners and Don in particular.

Where as with Adam he was just such a pure soul from what we saw. He'd loved his brother his whole life, kept that vision of him in the train in his mind. He just wanted to have him in his life and that's it. He didn't ask for money or anything like that, didn't complain about his own life that I remember. When he killed himself he did send the box to Don but Don didn't realize it was a suicidal gesture at all so it didn't play the way Lane's letter did. He only realized later that he'd died, which made him even more of a victim. He'd died with no one to even mourn him. But he was probably the one person in the world who genuinely loved Dick Whitman more than anyone else, even Anna.

Which is not meant as a put-down of Lane. I did find him a sympathetic character too. But he didn't have the almost child-like innocent quality and his suicide also seemed very connected to appearances. He hid all his money problems when it doesn't seem like it was necessary, left a family behind--he even meant to originally kill himself in the Jaguar his unsuspecting wife had bought him which would have been a fuck you to her!

[txhorns79]

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Which is not meant as a put-down of Lane. I did find him a sympathetic character too. But he didn't have the almost child-like innocent quality and his suicide also seemed very connected to appearances. He hid all his money problems when it doesn't seem like it was necessary, left a family behind--he even meant to originally kill himself in the Jaguar his unsuspecting wife had bought him which would have been a fuck you to her!

True.  I did feel badly for Lane.  I liked the character.  He was in a pretty desperate place, even if his storyline was more about his own selfishness than anything else.  And I think Rebecca was right when she made the comment about how Lane never should have been filled with ambition.  I felt particularly bad for Joan in that situation.  In her mind, she probably thinks her rejection of Lane played some role in his decision, when the reality is that it had nothing to do with that.

With Adam, it was pure tragedy.  He was a very lonely person who was severely traumatized by Don, twice.   

[voiceover]

Ugh.  The Suzanne Farrell eps.  

Disliked her from that drunken pity-call she made to Don after the parent-teacher disaster.  She was *so obviously* flirting that later her holier-than-thou eclipse-day speech about married men rang utterly false.  More like the reverse psychology come-on she'd intended.

(Yikes.  I hate the character so much I've over-used my hyphen quota for the day)

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, voiceover said:

Disliked her from that drunken pity-call she made to Don after the parent-teacher disaster.  She was *so obviously* flirting that later her holier-than-thou eclipse-day speech about married men rang utterly false.  More like the reverse psychology come-on she'd intended.

 

That was so my reaction to her. You can practically hear her off-the-shoulder bra strap over the phone. So frustrating that Don played along because he wanted her too. It would have been so satisfying to see a guy tell her to just leave him out of whatever drama she was concocting in her head about herself. Also her lectures on the innocence of children are bullshit--but seem very authentic for a proto-hippie.

That said, I'm surprised on re-watch at how little she's in the episodes. Mad Men is really good at economic storytelling so at the time it seemed like she was on so much but really their affair isn't that long in terms of episodes.

[Melancholy]

I'm rewatching S5. A few thoughts:

 

Lady Lazarus has a whole storyline about how it's IMPOSSIBLE to get the Beatles for the Chevalier Blanc commercials so they have to find a substitute song that sounds like the Beatles. Then, the ep ends with Tomorrow Never Dies. Very cute meta humble-brag, show!

Pete v. Lane is one of the very best antagonist relationships on this show. Bit by little bit, Lane offends Pete without intending to until Signal 30. First, Lane created the Pete v. Ken competition by lying to both them. Then, Lane chose to promote Ken. But then, Pete couldn't believe in Lane's choice as a fair one or coming from the company instead of Lane, as a biased rogue boss, after 24 hours later, Roger and Don picked Pete over Ken for SCDP. In Pete's mind, that isolated Lane as "the guy who has a problem with me."

Proposition- Peggy never really fell in love with her parade of guys on this show. She strongly platonically bonded with Pete, mainly AFTER their affair. She bonded with Stan- although IMO less than Pete- BEFORE they became romantic in the series finale. However romantically, Peggy expended energy for the status of having a guy instead of pursuing of a particular guy for himself. Peggy didn't want to be alone but her True Love was always Work. This is particularly clear with Abe. In Far Away Places, she's unhappy in the relationship and seems like she'd be cool if he broke up with her. Abe doesn't appear again until At the Codfish Ball. Peggy misreads the relationship to believe that he's breaking up with her but then, becomes all pleased when Joan indicates that Abe may be conferring the ultimate high status of Wife on her. 

Then, Peggy goes along with moving in with Abe. When Maaaa accuses Abe of using Peggy for practice, Peggy never defends Abe's honor or their relationship or stresses how they love each other and how they're not each other's practice but instead The One for each other. Instead, she just mumbles "Do you want me to be alone?" It's a clear admission that Peggy settled for moving in just because she doesn't want to be alone- not because she truly wants to live with Abe.

Alexis Bledel gets so much crap for her acting- until she finally earned a strange new respect from her work on The Handmaids Tale. It's complete bullshit. I always loved her as Rory Gilmore, but when you add her work as Beth Dawnson and then, Emily on The Handmaids Tale, it adds up to incredible range. 

It's a huge about-face that Ed Baxter drops a huge bomb on Don that The Letter poisoned SCDP's reputation with any blue chip companies. By At the Codfish Ball, it seems like a fact that's going to define SCDP's business. 

....And then, the end of S5 and S6 is partly about how SCDP got Dow and GM and became a huge blue chip ad agency. I think the moral is that there's no such thing that as  "company-to-company loyalty" in business. Mad Men's story DOES believe in individual-to-individual loyalty. Individual-to-individual loyalty dramatically defines the course of lives on this show. However, Mad Men doesn't believe in company-to-company loyalty even though it gets bandied about. At least, betrayals of a company don't get the karmic justice of betrayals of individuals. 

Mohawk came back to SCDP. And by analogy, Don particularly wanted American Airlines because they stood him up. Don/Pete/Roger/Bert/Lane/etc. got to betray PPL without consequences. Ed Baxter gives a speech about how Don is too dirty to represent big companies after he betrayed Lucky Strike. Then a few months later, Ed Baxter signs his company to Don because Don, then, retorted with a speech about how he'd brutally fight for Dow to have 100 percent profit share no matter how many Vietnamese civilians are murdered with Dow's products. And Ed completely bought into that because the promise of greater profits means more than Don's actual past actions that supposed offended Ed's principles. Don and Co. have a particularly charmed business life but I think it reflects a reality that loyalty to a business is never as important as loyalty to a person. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Pete v. Lane is one of the very best antagonist relationships on this show. Bit by little bit, Lane offends Pete without intending to until Signal 30. First, Lane created the Pete v. Ken competition by lying to both them. Then, Lane chose to promote Ken. But then, Pete couldn't believe in Lane's choice as a fair one or coming from the company instead of Lane, as a biased rogue boss, after 24 hours later, Roger and Don picked Pete over Ken for SCDP. In Pete's mind, that isolated Lane as "the guy who has a problem with me."

 

I love how later in Christmas Waltz Pete's snotty to Lane again because Lane's being grumpy about the Christmas bonuses ("What ghost visited you, Ebenezer?") and Don says, "Pete, you asked me to stop this last time." I love scenes where Pete actually listens to people who have better social instincts than he does. (And I think Don really is doing a nice thing there.)

I've actually been rewatching Christmas Waltz a lot--I forget about that one but it's a real favorite of mine. I love the settings of so many scenes, especially that bar Joan and Don are in.

10 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Then, Peggy goes along with moving in with Abe. When Maaaa accuses Abe of using Peggy for practice, Peggy never defends Abe's honor or their relationship or stresses how they love each other and how they're not each other's practice but instead The One for each other. Instead, she just mumbles "Do you want me to be alone?" It's a clear admission that Peggy settled for moving in just because she doesn't want to be alone- not because she truly wants to live with Abe.

 

She really does admit it--and her mother is so right, even if Abe isn't thinking along these lines at the time consciously. That storyline always makes me think about how times really have changed. Nowadays it's so standard to move in with someone I wouldn't take it as a sign one way or another about whether you'd eventually get married or not, but here Peggy probably should have known it meant marriage was not happening. Joan probably would have said that at some other point in the series but she's been so burned by marriage she's rethinking all those rules. 

15 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Don and Co. have a particularly charmed business life but I think it reflects a reality that loyalty to a business is never as important as loyalty to a person. 

I never thought of it that way but yeah, that's completely true. So much on the show rests on personal loyalty and the idea of businesses really caring about that sort of thing just doesn't hold up. The few times businesses do make decisions like that it comes down to one guy who happens to be in a position to wield power acting on his own personal feelings. Like the Heinz guy wanting respect compared to ketchup, Tom Vogel wanting to punish Pete, Herb wanting Joan, people at McCann not liking Ken. Oh, and of course Pete's great loyalty to Don and Don's recognition and gratitude for that. Not to mention Don and Peggy--Don and a lot of people, really. Lane's suicide is a fuck you to the office and Don especially, but Don was actually very good to Lane. Lane just didn't want to admit he'd crossed the line into making an unreasonable demand. It's like he put up with so much crap he just exploded into the other extreme.

Then you've got, again, Christmas Waltz where Harry really wants to help Paul just because they're Harry and Paul. He really doesn't have faith in him as a writer or as a would-be success in California, but he wants a short-term solution to giving Paul something positive in his life.

[voiceover]

Ahh, @sistermagpie!  Worth the repeat:

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You can practically hear [Suzanne's] off-the-shoulder bra strap over the phone. So frustrating that Don played along because he wanted her too. It would have been so satisfying to see a guy tell her to just leave him out of whatever drama she was concocting in her head[...]

Co-sign, x 100.

"The Color Blue" has my all-time favorite Lane line: "I've been [in the U.S.] eighteen months, and no one's asked me where I went to school."   I just. DIE! every time.

If Don had gone to England like Bert Cooper had predicted, his version would've been, "...and no one's asked me what I do for a living." 

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 8:04 PM, voiceover said:

Ugh.  The Suzanne Farrell eps.  

Disliked her from that drunken pity-call she made to Don after the parent-teacher disaster.  She was *so obviously* flirting that later her holier-than-thou eclipse-day speech about married men rang utterly false.  More like the reverse psychology come-on she'd intended.

I didn't see Suzanne as devious or obvious.  Her behavior showed some confusion and ambiguity that I found realistic for a young woman in the early 1960s.  I liked her.

[voiceover]

On 8/22/2018 at 3:39 AM, Inquisitionist said:

I didn't see Suzanne as devious or obvious.  Her behavior showed some confusion and ambiguity that I found realistic for a young woman in the early 1960s.  I liked her.

Nope.  No "confusion and ambiguity" over how she went after Don.  She met Betty.  She knew Betty was *suffering* over the loss of her father.  She was Sally's teacher, fer crissakes -- even though IIRC Sally was no longer in her class, she'd been her much-loved teacher in the recent past, and even Suzanne admitted that such deaths were traumatic for a child. 

But she came after Don anyway.

Don's no saint here; and MidgeRachelBobbieEtAl all knew they were committing adultery.  But none of them (per show canon) had met Betty Draper or Sally Draper.  "Don and his wife and children" was an abstract to them.

I was never a Betty fan, and Bobbie was some piece of work.  I don't think Suzanne was evil.   But she walked into his life of her own volition, knowing the women in his life & their vulnerabilities.

Yeah, she doesn't get a pass.

[Melancholy]

I liked Suzanne too and also sensed some ambiguity. I don't think there's a hard and fast moral rule that it's much worse to be the Other Woman if you are acquainted with your paramour's spouse. At least not with me. Every spouse is a person. Every person has struggles and vulnerabilities. Suzanne isn't much worse to me because she saw Betty at the market and for like, a few parent-teacher events. But even if there is, I think we were supposed to regard Peggy's and Joan's affairs as ambiguous and somewhat sympathetic. They also interacted with their paramours' spouse. Margaret would come into the office as a young girl when Joan was carrying on with Roger. Ted's little boys were running around the office. 

Suzanne is worse because she betrayed Sally. I'm not so bothered by Suzanne being acquainted with Betty. It's the Sally-part that really feels like a betrayal because (a) Suzanne interacted with Sally a lot more beyond mere acquaintances and (b) Suzanne actually had a direct, clearly defined duty to Sally's quality of life but she just had a general vague human-to-human duty to Betty's quality of life. 

But still, Suzanne is ultimately morally grey to me. It is an ameliorating factor that Suzanne is the one single woman that we see trapped out in the burbs. She was a young single woman both living and working out in Ossining surrounded by spouses and families. She needed to commute long ways to find a diverse, plentiful dating life withe single men her own age. However just by standing still, plenty of married men were hitting on her. Of course, the correct answer would be for Suzanne to be proactive about commuting to the city if she was truly lonely and longed for a boyfriend. However, there's a strong impression that she was depressed about her own fraught childhood and her brother's problems and this depression was immobilizing her from building her own romantic life. In this desert of loneliness and stress, Suzanne lurched for Don like an oasis because he had qualities that particularly attracted her. 

People look at infidelity differently. I get more ticked off that Midge, Rachel, Joan, Peggy, etc. had a whole sea of available single men around them and in all cases, actual specific boyfriend options or potential set-ups RIGHT THERE but spurned those better moral options to chase after a married man than at Suzanne was being acquaintances with Betty. But yeah, Suzanne betrayed Sally which is really terrible. 

[Neko]

The thing that annoyed me about Suzanne was her blase attitude about being "chased" by the married men in the suburbs, while she was chasing after Don like a lovesick schoolgirl.  If you're going to pursue a married man, pursue a married man.  Don't pull that half-and-half bullshit, and tell yourself you're helpless against all these lecherous married men who want you.

[sistermagpie]

I do think that Suzanne is more screwed up than devious. It seemed like she was somebody who probably had a pattern of getting into situations she knew were a bad idea, like she was playing with fire. Serious risk-taking behavior, only instead of drugs or whatever she would go after relationships that were bad in some way.

But she still drove me crazy. I didn't think she had any responsibility to Betty than somebody like Midge as one woman to another, but still, she's a teacher bringing parents in for a conference about a kid who's troubled. She sees this woman is about to have a baby and just lost her father. And what she takes from it is to focus on the "connection" she feels with the husband because he says he lost someone at that age (just like her!) and he cares enough about his kid to come to the conference. She just seemed seemed really into these emotional moments that other people got roped into, like the death of Gene. 

Don bugged me the same way with that affair, the way he wants Suzanne for himself when he knows this person should belong to Sally. (Sure sometimes these things happen, but there's no reason for it in this case.) Here's a woman who does, as was said above, have a responsibility to Sally. As her teacher, she gained Sally's trust. She claims to care about her. Yet she doesn't seem to see a conflict between that and her interference in Sally's home life. She even uses her position as a teacher to do it. And at the same time she's got all these schmalzy speeches about childhood, how children just automatically understand and agree with MLK's speech because they're so innocent and yadda yadda. Even her aggressive conversation with Don in front of the kids because she assumes they can't know words like whatever it was she used--adultery? Something like that. How innocent does she expect kids to be if her affair is discovered?

6 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

The thing that annoyed me about Suzanne was her blase attitude about being "chased" by the married men in the suburbs, while she was chasing after Don like a lovesick schoolgirl.  If you're going to pursue a married man, pursue a married man.  Don't pull that half-and-half bullshit, and tell yourself you're helpless against all these lecherous married men who want you.

Yes, that's the moment I wish Don had been willing to tell her off. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of creeps hitting on you, but whatever flirting Don was doing had far more deniability than Suzanne calling him up half-drunk to bring up their deep emotional connection again while Betty's going into labor and might as well not exist. The conversation at the eclipse was especially bold given that iirc she asks him what he's doing for the summer and then objects when he tells her as if he just did something sneaky by giving her this information.