Mad Men - General Discussion

[voiceover]

[edited, because I answered my own question]

New question:

I'd appreciate some poster spec about when you think Jimmy guessed about Don & Bobbie.  The car accident? which would mean, he knew during that office visit.

Edited November 15, 2017 by voiceover

[qtpye]

On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Melancholy said:

I liked Faye a lot. For my money, Faye had Rachel's strengths but Faye was cuter and warmer. I didn't read that Faye didn't like children. She was nice to Sally. Faye said, "I love children, but I chose to be where I am. I don't view it as a failure." IMO, that's means exactly what it sounds. Faye likes children but she did make specific choices to pursue her career as a professional instead finding a husband so she could have babies as soon as possible. Fans insulted Faye for getting emotional at her "failure" with Sally as an example of her being "Weak" and "Weird About Don" or whatever. However, IMO, I didn't see Faye's freak-out as being purely about Don but instead, about Faye's own issues in how she loves children but she had to pick a career because she couldn't have both so her "rustiness" and "ineptness" in this very elemental feminine role of mothering really cuts her at her core. Like, she's made choices that make her a failure at her "biological imperative" no matter what she does in the future. It's kind of a less over-wrought, less-for-the-purposes-of-shipper-bait version of what Peggy was doing in Time & Life. Meanwhile, Megan did continue watching Don's kids to a limited extent as a wifely duty but I feel like her "joy" in doing that concluded with her role as the babysitter. Starting very quickly in S5, I get the impression that Megan considered the kids an obligation and increasingly a "your messed up kids" annoyance. 

I do think Don was fulfilling an "ideal" in his relationship with Faye as much as any of the other women. Faye was a tool for self-improvement or more accurately, finding equilibrium to Don. It's just different where Don didn't ever believe that The Magic of Faye and Their Connection would confer instant happiness and secureness on him- unlike Don and a lot of the other women. Rather, Don thought Faye's hard-ass insistence on a conventional dating relationship would be a good impetus for him to straighten out and IMO, he subconsciously reached out to her as a therapist even though he'd never consciously go see one. 

Your post reminded me of the stupid scene with the milkshakes.  First of all Don, you are paying her...do you really think she's going back hand a kid right in front of you?  I think that was the exact moment that Don figured that Megan was going to be the warm maternal figure that loved advertising, who was going to finally fix him.

The irony was that Megan really had no more desire for kids then Faye.  This was particularly true when the relationship went south and as usual Don abandoned the kids with her.  I think Megan thought she would be the cool part time step mom, more like a bigsister.  She began to realize Don having the kids for the weekend meant she was the one stuck taking care of them and she did not love that role.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Your post reminded me of the stupid scene with the milkshakes.  First of all Don, you are paying her...do you really think she's going back hand a kid right in front of you?  I think that was the exact moment that Don figured that Megan was going to be the warm maternal figure that loved advertising, who was going to finally fix him.

The irony was that Megan really had no more desire for kids then Faye.  This was particularly true when the relationship went south and as usual Don abandoned the kids with her.  I think Megan thought she would be the cool part time step mom, more like a bigsister.  She began to realize Don having the kids for the weekend meant she was the one stuck taking care of them and she did not love that role.

I don’t think Don left the kids with Megan a lot or that Megan was a primary caregiver over his custody weekends. I wrote before:

Quote

I think Megan was highly overrated as a step-mother. Right from A Little Kiss, she was quite distant from the kids even as they were their apartment. Don was the one interacting with them with plans to spend the day with them later. In Tea Leaves, Don angsted about how he and Megan would raise the kids if Betty passed. Megan mainly seemed concerned that Don didn't tell her in the last two days and seemed like a downer about going to see her friends at Fire Island. Don checks in with Sally in Mystery Date since Betty and Henry were away with the boys; Megan doesn't.

In Far Away Places, it's pretty easy to lecture Don that it's not enough to just buy presents for Sally and Bobby but Gene also needs one. At the Codfish Ball, it's good that Megan and Marie took Sally shopping but there's a manipulative, empty edge to it. Like, the day was mainly about Megan and Marie getting to spend a ton of money and Sally was part of their justification. Then, at the Ball itself, Don and Megan were terrible at incorporating Sally into the party unlike Hardly A Model Father!Roger Sterling who still figured out to network while entertaining Sally (at least the blow job scene). Even then, Don had more of an excuse since he was the rainmaker for the agency and the award winner and he should focus on networking to turn the Why I'm Quitting Tobacco letter into business. Even then, he has a nice moment with Sally when they go have desert. Megan chose to focus on some networking, but mostly interacting with her parents and sulking about it and totally ignored Sally through the party.

In Dark Shadows, Megan interacted with Sally to show off her acting skillz and that was a nice moment between the two. However, off-screen, Don went outside with the boys. However, even in that ep, I don't think Megan was really aces handling Sally's Anna Draper-question. Megan immaturely started pouting-crying (that Sally awesomely mocked). Megan *did* handle Don well to stop him from calling Betty to yell at her- but that proves the point. Megan was Don's second wife, not the stepmother. I suppose Don has the history, authority and is the actual parent (and is great at being manipulative and lying about the identity switch) but he was the one who finessed the situation well. In Commissions and Fees, Sally does choose to leave Betty for her dad's and stepmother's. However, I think the ep is clear that Sally momentarily preferred Megan because Megan lets her do whatever she wants and Megan buys her miniskirts and go-go boots and Sally actually sold both of her actual parents short because Megan is ultimately not that important in Sally's life in any of the deeper stuff. See the other scene where Megan let Sally tag along to her coffee date with her friend (while Don was working) and Sally practically dumped an entire container of sugar in her coffee but Megan was so busy gabbing with her friend to notice.

So in S5, I think Megan was polite but very distant from the kids (especially relative to her unemployed status). Don was actually more hands-on- but not great. In S6, I think they were both terrible as parental figures until Don in In Care Of. They didn't even have the kids over as often as S5 or Don in S4. Don's weak cowardly fit about having to pick up the kids after MLK died because there was some rioting was bullshit and Megan sucked for enabling it. "Betty's a piece of work." Parents should *want* to be with their children through scary circumstances. Moreover, I'm pretty cynical about Megan's melodramatic reaction to MLK dying. There was something highly performative about how she went with much fanfare to the ceremony in the park and then, got on her high horse to lecture Don for taking Bobby to the movies even though Bobby was right and people like to go the movies when they're sad. Then in The Crash, Megan and Don both abandoned the kids but Megan came off like the good guy to Sally because Megan bribed Sally with sexy clothes for watching her brothers. And you know, call me anti-feminist, but I do have more patience for Don being absent because he was in the middle of a merger, working for demanding GM on a hard deadline, Cutler drugged him up, and Ted was MIA because of Gleason's death than Megan heading for an audition for a play even though she already had a job on a soap. I mean, Don was still terrible because the Sylvia-moping ate time, he didn't need to jump off a drug-bridge because Jim Cutler told him to, and Sally believed Grandma Ida for too long because his lies and secretiveness about everything. However, Don did have some solid reasons on why the kids didn't come first that weekend.

In The Better Half, Don goes to Bobby's camp; Henry Francis joins Betty to attend Bobby's camp. Megan was pouting that she always misses Don at their apartment, instead of joining her husband at camp to step-parent. I don't really remember Megan's role in Favors but obviously, Don really damages Sally. However, Favors was the LAST time that Megan ever interacted with the Draper kids. I don't know if she already left for California by the end of In Care Of, but she's pointedly not part of the Dick Whitman Thanksgiving Tour (and she didn't want to be).

In 3 years of marriage, we only saw Megan stuck with caring for all three kids alone in Dark Shadows when Don went into the office one weekend to work and The Crash when Don was working/tripping. I don’t think Megan had to do any hard or cumbersome work with child rearing at all. 

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I don’t think Don left the kids with Megan a lot or that Megan was a primary caregiver over his custody weekends. I wrote before:

In 3 years of marriage, we only saw Megan stuck with caring for all three kids alone in Dark Shadows when Don went into the office one weekend to work and The Crash when Don was working/tripping. I don’t think Megan had to do any hard or cumbersome work with child rearing at all. 

I don't think it was cumbersome, but it was more then what she wanted to do.

To me it was simple:

Don married Megan, because he thought she was the naturally loving beautiful mother figure that he never had and he thought she loved advertising as much as he did.  Neither turned out to be true.  This really was not Megan's fault.   It was more Don rushing after what he wanted instead of taking time to figure out what he really needs.

[Luckylyn]

The observation that Don might have been  subconsciously been using Faye as a therapist is interesting. He did seem to be going through a reflective self improvement period at that point.  In Don's mind the choice between Megan and Faye was about the easy fantasy over the more challenging reality.  Faye wanted Don to face his past and Megan was willing the enable Don's desire to try to escape it.   Don wanted a quick fix for his unhappiness and imposed this fantasy idea of who Megan was and could not handle it when Megan turned out to be a flawed person.  I feel like Faye took Don's children seriously in a way Megan didn't and that's part of why Faye struggles with taking care of Sally.  Megan was willing to babysit but not co-parent Don's kids.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, qtpye said:

I don't think it was cumbersome, but it was more then what she wanted to do.

And then there was the whole story where she was secretly considering an abortion and it seemed like there was the unspoken question of what they were doing if they weren't going to have kids.

Clearly Megan never turned into Betty where she was constantly mothering the kids while Don was out. Though there were also scenes where Don would be isolated because of whatever he was going through and if that happened Megan would be the one with the kids. (The Flood is an obvious example.) But even Don sees that there's a difference between a fun babysitter and a stepmother. Megan herself, I think, clearly never thought of herself as a stepmother. She cared about the kids, but when she was faced with an unexpected kid-minding situation I think she reacted more like a childless person annoyed by an unreasonable imposition than an annoyed parent. There is a difference.

There's even those couple of references to just how often Sally spends babysitting when she's at Don's--that's how she bought that skirt Betty snarks about. And Betty seems to get that it's not Don who's paying Sally off to babysit, it's Megan. So even if there's a time where Don isn't there with the kids and it falls to Megan, Megan herself doesn't see why she can't get out of it by paying Sally. The very situation that blows up on them in The Crash. If Megan was really a stepmother that would make her seem like a bad stepmother. As it is I think everyone just sees her as Don's young wife who nobody expects to take that much responsibility. She's more there to be adored than depended on in a consistent way.

It's kind of interesting foreshadowing in Tea Leaves when Don first considers Betty having cancer and despite whatever fantasies he might have had about that milkshake and Megan in California, he clearly sees that Megan isn't relating to the kids like a mother. She thinks her fond feelings for the kids are enough and it'll just work out.

[txhorns79]

Quote

In Don's mind the choice between Megan and Faye was about the easy fantasy over the more challenging reality.  Faye wanted Don to face his past and Megan was willing the enable Don's desire to try to escape it.   Don wanted a quick fix for his unhappiness and imposed this fantasy idea of who Megan was and could not handle it when Megan turned out to be a flawed person.  I feel like Faye took Don's children seriously in a way Megan didn't and that's part of why Faye struggles with taking care of Sally.  Megan was willing to babysit but not co-parent Don's kids.

I felt like Faye's struggle was more that she truly seemed ill-equipped to deal with kids, and rather than being able to prepare for a meeting with the kids, Sally just shows up unexpectedly, and Faye cannot deal.  I mean, it's painful watching her interact with Sally.  And that isn't to say Faye wouldn't have loosened up and become more natural if the kids were in her life more, but you can see her really struggling.  And compare that to Megan whom the kids take to instantly, and then easily deals with a situation (spilled milkshakes) that probably would have caused a Betty-blow up, or Faye-style panic, and you can see the wheels turning in Don's head. 

I really did like Dr. Faye, and wished we had seen her again after Season 4.   

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

And compare that to Megan whom the kids take to instantly, and then easily deals with a situation (spilled milkshakes) that probably would have caused a Betty-blow up, or Faye-style panic, and you can see the wheels turning in Don's head. 

Absolutely. It's not even surprising. Megan herself says she's the youngest of many kids and has many nieces and nephews. Plus she's somebody kids are naturally going to like anyway--a pretty, cool young woman. Faye's a businesswoman who's worked really hard to create a personality that can hold its own in that world. Don's absolutely choosing a "type" with Megan in that scene.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Absolutely. It's not even surprising. Megan herself says she's the youngest of many kids and has many nieces and nephews. Plus she's somebody kids are naturally going to like anyway--a pretty, cool young woman.

Indeed.  We were lucky that restaurant didn't sell orange sherbet or they would have never gotten married. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Indeed.  We were lucky that restaurant didn't sell orange sherbet or they would have never gotten married. 

It is a great bit of symbolism that she kind of rose and fell based on spontaneous reactions to ice cream treats she didn't know were part of the test.

[Neko]

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It is a great bit of symbolism that she kind of rose and fell based on spontaneous reactions to ice cream treats she didn't know were part of the test.

I will always love Megan's line at HoJo's: "It's not a destination.  It's a stop on the way to another place", or something along those lines.  Sums up their marriage, pretty well.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

I will always love Megan's line at HoJo's: "It's not a destination.  It's a stop on the way to another place", or something along those lines.  Sums up their marriage, pretty well.

And how fitting for Don the hobo in general who doesn't really get the difference.

[txhorns79]

Quote

It is a great bit of symbolism that she kind of rose and fell based on spontaneous reactions to ice cream treats she didn't know were part of the test.

Seriously.  I'm surprised Don's next affair wasn't with a salesgirl at Baskin-Robbins. 

[qtpye]

44 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Seriously.  I'm surprised Don's next affair wasn't with a salesgirl at Baskin-Robbins. 

It's funny.  The Hojo episode might havebeen their first real fight since the surprise birthday party disaster, but Don was still pretty obsessed with her.  The way he was so relieved that the chain was drawn in their penthouse, which meant she was back and had not left him.  He then breaks the door down and almost tackles her with both anger and desperation.  This is a huge contrast to later when they are in Hawaii and he does not seem to care if she takes a long walk off a short cliff.  He was almost treating her like gum stuck on his shoe...something he could not wait to be rid of.

Edited November 16, 2017 by qtpye

[qtpye]

I have metioned how I thought Faye was a pretty modern and progressive woman who would fit in 2017.  Another progressive woman was the real estate lady that Pete dated in California.  I felt bad for her when Pete dumped her and she had to sit on the flight from NY by herself, though I adored Trudy and was happy she was Pete's endgame.

[txhorns79]

Quote

It's funny.  The Hojo episode might have been their first real fight since the surprise birthday party disaster, but Don was still pretty obsessed with her.  The way he was so relieved that the chain was drawn in their penthouse, which meant she was back and had not left him.  He then breaks the door down and almost tackles her with both anger and desperation.  This is a huge contrast to later when they are in Hawaii and he does not seem to care if she takes a long walk off a short cliff.  He was almost treating her like gum stuck on his shoe...something he could not wait to be rid of.

Honestly, I think those are two very different situations.  With Hojo's, I think his reaction was because he thought something bad had happened to her, not that he really believed she was going to leave him.  So you have relief mixed with anger over having put him through that during the last scene.    In Hawaii, they are on vacation and getting along well.  He doesn't seem concerned about what she is doing because there's nothing to be concerned about.   

[sistermagpie]

Also HoJo's happened when Don was still deeply in that desperate place where he thought Megan represented him being happy and being a good person. He was literally grabbing onto her like a life raft in that scene. He was on the one hand deliriously happy, but you can see a desperation underneath it--that's, imo, part of why he gets so upset when she doesn't like the orange sherbet. The slightest hint that she's not proof that he's an okay person freaks him out. When she disappears it's like he's lost this magical thing that meant so much to him and it's his own fault (until she's back and he can be angry at her about it). 

By Hawaii he's already let go on some level ("Are you alone?") and has accepted that he's the same broken person he always was so all his reactions to her are less intense, imo. Even when he's lashing out at her (like when he comes to watch her at work and acts like she's a whore for kissing on the job) it's a very different anger than what he had in Faraway Places.

[voiceover]

On 11/16/2017 at 0:42 PM, qtpye said:

 Another progressive woman was the real estate lady that Pete dated in California.  I felt bad for her when Pete dumped her and she had to sit on the flight from NY by herself

Agree.  I posted before that I liked that story she told him about the house, the year-long kiss-up to the clients, the cigarette...Whoosh.  Commission gone, but she learned a lesson.  It was a great piece of wisdom, and something I wish Pete would have taken to heart.

Repeating question from top of thread: any spec on when Jimmy figured it all out?  Is it one of those, retrospect-should’ve-seen-it, in that meeting with Bobbie at Don’s office?

[ridethemaverick]

Currently rewatching and it still amuses me how Pauline was so sympathetic to poor terrified Sally on thanksgiving, then one year later she herself so frustrated with Sally that she hit her and yelled at her. 

[voiceover]

Ugh..."Tomorrowland", possibly my most hated ep.

Welcome to Mrs Draperdom, Megan...you show-eating horror.

[voiceover]

I finally put it together.

The first reax while Megan's singing "Zou Bisou", was described years before by Elliot Garfield (Richard Dreyfuss) in Goodbye Girl: "A roomful of people shot up on Novocain."

[ivygirl]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Ugh..."Tomorrowland", possibly my most hated ep.

Welcome to Mrs Draperdom, Megan...you show-eating horror.

I was just watching the Audience channel myself :) “Blowing Smoke” has really grown on me as an episode lately. But “Tomorrowland,” bleh.

[qtpye]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

I finally put it together.

The first reax while Megan's singing "Zou Bisou", was described years before by Elliot Garfield (Richard Dreyfuss) in Goodbye Girl: "A roomful of people shot up on Novocain."

 

9 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I was just watching the Audience channel myself :) “Blowing Smoke” has really grown on me as an episode lately. But “Tomorrowland,” bleh.

I think Tomorrowland is when the show started to slip from amazing character development to contrivance.  Oh no, Betty was being a bitch and fires a loyal employee, who actually loved her children...how is Don going to handle three kids on a business trip!!!!!  Hey, Megan, "How much do you make in a week...I'll double it if you come to California and take care of my kids".

It opens with a shot of Faye giving Don some good advice about how he will always be broken, unless he confronts his issues with his past.  Faye is a very good looking woman, but it almost seems the camera goes out of it's way to make her look unflattering in this scene. 

Of course this is in contrast to Megan who looks perfect in every shot.

I am fascinated with Don pre-Megan and post Megan, I almost don't care anymore.

[qtpye]

I was watching Far Away Places and it is an really interesting to see the contrast between Don and Roger at the beginning and end.  Roger suggests that they go for a guy's trip and Don happily says that he would rather take Megan and Roger could bring Jane (Megan gets along with everybody!).  Roger is irritated because the whole reason for him suggesting the trip was to get away from Jane and her weird friends.

Don is on Cloud Nine and swoops in to inform Megan about their trip and take her off the Heinz Bean presentation.  Megan is visibly annoyed, but Don sweeps it aside, because he is so excited about spending the day with her.

Roger gloomily is forced to go a party he does not want to be at.  They take LSD and eventually stumble upon their truth...the relationship is over.  We figure out that Roger married Jane for the most superficial of reasons, while Jane actually loved Roger.  She will be a wealthy woman after the divorce, but she is heartbroken that the relationship is over, while Roger is totally relieved.

The famous orange sherbet incident happened and Don began to realize that Megan was a person with her own needs and not just someone who was a conduit for Don's desires.  This horrifies him on so many levels.

At the end of the episode Roger is happy to be free and Don has the first seeds of doubt planted in his head about his marriage.

[small potatoes]

On 1/6/2018 at 1:01 PM, qtpye said:

Don has the first seeds of doubt planted in his head about his marriage.

These are not the first seeds of doubt. Don has never been comfortable in the marriage. The Zou Bisou scene is a pretty obvious example. 

I like what you said up-thread, that it was as if he cast her in the role of his wife. I've always seen it that he hired her for the position. But Dick Whitman couldn't allow himself to do anything as cynical as marrying for convenience. That would have been too close to exchanging sex for money. Before he could get married, he had to be in Love, and we had to watch him brainwash himself into believing Megan was the great love of his life. 

[qtpye]

16 hours ago, small potatoes said:

These are not the first seeds of doubt. Don has never been comfortable in the marriage. The Zou Bisou scene is a pretty obvious example. 

I like what you said up-thread, that it was as if he cast her in the role of his wife. I've always seen it that he hired her for the position. But Dick Whitman couldn't allow himself to do anything as cynical as marrying for convenience. That would have been too close to exchanging sex for money. Before he could get married, he had to be in Love, and we had to watch him brainwash himself into believing Megan was the great love of his life. 

Even worse he thought that Megan will finally be the woman "who fixes him" without Don having to do the hard work of facing his issues.  She was the short cut that would make everything better..the pill that cures everything.

I actually feel that, as bad as it was in the moment, Don did not hold the Zou Bisou party against her.  He probably figured that it was more her trying to make him happy and was an honest mistake on her part.  He maybe retconned that Megan loves and is loved by everyone, so she might not realize why he did not want to celebrate his birthday in this manner.

[sistermagpie]

59 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I actually feel that, as bad as it was in the moment, Don did not hold the Zou Bisou party against her.  He probably figured that it was more her trying to make him happy and was an honest mistake on her part.  He maybe retconned that Megan loves and is loved by everyone, so she might not realize why he did not want to celebrate his birthday in this manner.

Yeah,  I think Zou Bisou definitely shows us that there’s a problem, but at that point Don and Megan are still able to pretend it’s not a huge problem. That whole scene where she’s “cleaning” and they have sex and talk about the rug is them blaming other people for their problems—they let work into their house and that did it.

It’s when they get to Far Away Places where it seems like the actual problem is right there on the table where Don, especially, can’t ignore it. And it makes sense in that dreamy quality that ep has, that he fears Megan has literally disappeared when it happens.

[small potatoes]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Even worse he thought that Megan will finally be the woman "who fixes him" without Don having to do the hard work of facing his issues.  She was the short cut that would make everything better..the pill that cures everything.

I don't think Don ever believed this. He didn't think Megan would solve all of his problems; he thought getting married would solve some of his immediate problems, and Megan was the best candidate for the position. She provided eye candy for social functions, maternal instincts for his children, and a willingness to slap him around some in bed. She was perfect for the job. 

Once he decided to marry her, he set about proving to himself and the world that she was the great Love of his life, but he knew better from the start. That's why Megadon was so painful to watch. He was faking it. He put everything he had into faking it but he could never entirely convince himself.

So, really, Zou bisou and orange sherbet didn't so much remind Don that there were problems in the relationship or that Megan was a separate person with her own needs, as much as they reminded Don that he was faking it. 

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:37 AM, small potatoes said:

I don't think Don ever believed this. He didn't think Megan would solve all of his problems; he thought getting married would solve some of his immediate problems, and Megan was the best candidate for the position. She provided eye candy for social functions, maternal instincts for his children, and a willingness to slap him around some in bed. She was perfect for the job. 

I recently rewatched Tomorrowland, and I didn't get the sense that any of this was on Don's mind when he proposed to Megan.  It seemed much more primal:  he felt good around her, like "himself" but the "himself" that he always wanted to be.  He wanted to hold onto that feeling, which he interpreted as "being in love."  Now why did he feel that way?  Megan was breezy, adoring, accepting, "easy" in a way that Fay and Betty were not.  Don didn't have to "live up to" anything with Megan because he perceived that she was just fine with who he showed himself to be.  And she didn't seem to require anything more of Don than that.  I think Don essentially felt relieved.

[Athena]

45 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Megan was breezy, adoring, accepting, "easy" in a way that Fay and Betty were not.  Don didn't have to "live up to" anything with Megan because he perceived that she was just fine with who he showed himself to be.  And she didn't seem to require anything more of Don than that.  I think Don essentially felt relieved.

I think this was how Betty probably was when they first fell in love as well. She loved him and accepted him even when her family didn't, but marriage and a long term relationship require work that Don never got the handle on. Don probably did love Betty more than he ever loved Megan, but like Fay said, he only likes beginnings. He was very impulsive. Don struggled to maintain healthy romantic relationships because it did often boil down to a lot of primal feelings which does relate to all the abuse he suffered. It does not justify it, but he is constantly looking for ways to make him feel better or more or loved or accepted. 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Athena said:

I think this was how Betty probably was when they first fell in love as well. She loved him and accepted him even when her family didn't, but marriage and a long term relationship require work that Don never got the handle on. Don probably did love Betty more than he ever loved Megan, but like Fay said, he only likes beginnings. He was very impulsive. Don struggled to maintain healthy romantic relationships because it did often boil down to a lot of primal feelings which does relate to all the abuse he suffered. It does not justify it, but he is constantly looking for ways to make him feel better or more or loved or accepted. 

Also I always think of Don saying he's scratching at his own life trying to get in. It's almost like he keeps trying to get into his own commercial. He looks at the woman like she's a product that will draw him into the world he's watching. He'll become the guy who belongs with her. Betty was happy-seeming, she seemed like she was from a lovely, soft world with money. And Don did look like he belonged with her. He just didn't ever feel like he was actually part of it.

Megan was so breezy and innocent and accepting I think he thought it would make him feel like the guy who deserved to be accepted by her. He'd fit with her, feel as "new" as she was etc. I don't think it was really even as deep as it was with Betty at first--maybe because Don was younger when he was with Betty. Whether or not he knew it, he and Betty weren't that far apart. Not as far apart as Don and Megan. They grew up together in some ways. With Megan it's like he felt like he could almost hit a reset and be new again, but he had an ex-wife and 3 kids among other things with him.

It's not that he's just objectifying women like objects, imo. But more like he understands the subtext of his own commercials, that he's "buying happiness." If he has this thing he'll feel right. 

It's funny to also think about how non-romantic women fit into this--Anna, Peggy and Sally. I was re-watching some of S2 and it's interesting that Pete and Don are the two guys that notice Peggy's haircut. Pete notices she looks different and then visibly congratulates himself when she confirms she got a haircut. Don just asks his secretary when he gets back from California whether anything else is different besides Peggy's haircut (and something else that's slipping my mind--maybe Peggy's office because she moves while Don's away). 

[Athena]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's not that he's just objectifying women like objects, imo. But more like he understands the subtext of his own commercials, that he's "buying happiness." If he has this thing he'll feel right. 

Yes and the prime example of this is the Hershey pitch. Matt Weiner admitted that the whole of season 6 was going toward that raw moment and it says a lot about who Don was and how he viewed himself and the world. 

[small potatoes]

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I recently rewatched Tomorrowland, and I didn't get the sense that any of this was on Don's mind when he proposed to Megan.  It seemed much more primal:  he felt good around her, like "himself" but the "himself" that he always wanted to be.  He wanted to hold onto that feeling, which he interpreted as "being in love."  Now why did he feel that way?  Megan was breezy, adoring, accepting, "easy" in a way that Fay and Betty were not.  Don didn't have to "live up to" anything with Megan because he perceived that she was just fine with who he showed himself to be.  And she didn't seem to require anything more of Don than that.  I think Don essentially felt relieved.

This has all been said many times before by other posters on this and other forums and it's true. Megan was the easy option and made him feel good about himself. I like the way you expressed it, particularly the idea that he felt relieved. But relief isn't love, and neither is preferring one woman over another because she's easier. And marrying that easy woman in 2.5 seconds isn't about love, either. It's about desperation. 

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But more like he understands the subtext of his own commercials, that he's "buying happiness." If he has this thing he'll feel right. 

I agree. That's his hope. And that, too, is different from falling in love. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

This has all been said many times before by other posters on this and other forums and it's true. Megan was the easy option and made him feel good about himself. I like the way you expressed it, particularly the idea that he felt relieved. But relief isn't love, and neither is preferring one woman over another because she's easier. And marrying that easy woman in 2.5 seconds isn't about love, either. It's about desperation. 

I agree.  Megan was the easiest possible option.  I liked Dr. Faye a lot, but you knew she was done the moment she suggested that he come clean about Dick Whitman.   He would never voluntarily give up the life he has, and certainly was not going to keep someone around who thought he should blow things up.  
 

Quote

Matt Weiner admitted that the whole of season 6 was going toward that raw moment

 

Hershey: Your Reward for Helping Hookers Rob Their Johns! 

[sistermagpie]

46 minutes ago, small potatoes said:

I agree. That's his hope. And that, too, is different from falling in love. 

Yeah, it seems like one of the big tragedies about Don is he believe he's so unlovable that nobody could love him if they really knew him. Like I don't think his relationship with Faye was true love either, but the fact that it was sort of over the minute she saw him in a really honest moment is a pattern. With Megan he even told her his secret right away, but in a way where he controlled the narrative and he felt safe because Megan really didn't care--she didn't know him. It was like a sanitized do-over without any of the real emotions. But all that makes it hard for him to ever really be in love, at least over time. It's like he thinks being in love means feeling like somebody else, which means he'll never really feel loved for who he is.

[small potatoes]

On 1/17/2018 at 2:07 PM, Inquisitionist said:

I recently rewatched Tomorrowland, and I didn't get the sense that any of this was on Don's mind when he proposed to Megan.  It seemed much more primal:  he felt good around her, like "himself" but the "himself" that he always wanted to be.  He wanted to hold onto that feeling, which he interpreted as "being in love."  Now why did he feel that way?  Megan was breezy, adoring, accepting, "easy" in a way that Fay and Betty were not.  Don didn't have to "live up to" anything with Megan because he perceived that she was just fine with who he showed himself to be.  And she didn't seem to require anything more of Don than that.  I think Don essentially felt relieved.

Most of what I'm talking about happened in the episodes leading up to Tomorrowland. She hand-delivered Beatles tickets, demonstrating competence. She comforted Sally. She put out for him the first time they were alone together in a room. She was already a well-thought out option. 

The way I see it, he made the decision to marry her, but in order to marry her -- to satisfy his inner Dick Whitman, his superego, or whatever you want to call it -- he had to fall in love with her first. That's what happened in Tomorrowland. Don and Megan went through the motions of falling in love, because you can't just pay a woman to be your wife. 

On some level, I think, Don was aware of this and repressed the thought. When he finally admitted that Megan had been a business decision all along, he felt compelled to reward her generously, as if she had been a minor partner or a valued employee. It was severance pay. 

[Luckylyn]

10 hours ago, small potatoes said:

Most of what I'm talking about happened in the episodes leading up to Tomorrowland. She hand-delivered Beatles tickets, demonstrating competence. She comforted Sally. She put out for him the first time they were alone together in a room. She was already a well-thought out option. 

The way I see it, he made the decision to marry her, but in order to marry her -- to satisfy his inner Dick Whitman, his superego, or whatever you want to call it -- he had to fall in love with her first. That's what happened in Tomorrowland. Don and Megan went through the motions of falling in love, because you can't just pay a woman to be your wife. 

On some level, I think, Don was aware of this and repressed the thought. When he finally admitted that Megan had been a business decision all along, he felt compelled to reward her generously, as if she had been a minor partner or a valued employee. It was severance pay. 

I hadn’t considered that line of thinking before. So Don was telling himself in Tomorrowland that he was proposing to a Madonna but subconsciously was using her as a secretary with benefits.  That’s an interesting take on it.  I do think he believed she’d make life easier for him and that was a huge motivation for him.

 I think Don looks outside of himself and to various woman as what will make him happy.  He won’t confront his issues and focuses on women he thinks will save him.  He’s like a drowning man grabbing on to a woman to keep himself afloat but instead he drags them down to drown with him.  He keeps repeating the pattern and proving Faye right about him only liking new things.  He wants the fantasy savior and doesn’t know how to be a partner to a woman who doesn’t live up to his fantasies.

[small potatoes]

44 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

So Don was telling himself in Tomorrowland that he was proposing to a Madonna but subconsciously was using her as a secretary with benefits.  

Megan was more than a secretary with benefits. She was a walking advertisement for SCDP. Did you hear about Draper? Married his secretary. Have you seen her? Va Va Va Voom. On another forum, a poster suggested she was Part Two of The Letter. 

 

51 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

That’s an interesting take on it.

Thanks. 

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, small potatoes said:

Megan was more than a secretary with benefits. She was a walking advertisement for SCDP. Did you hear about Draper? Married his secretary. Have you seen her? Va Va Va Voom. On another forum, a poster suggested she was Part Two of The Letter. 

 

Thanks. 

You forgot the best part...Don and Megan will become the beautiful and talented power couple of advertising.  They will be an unstoppable pair that no one can beat.  This actually bore out until Megan wanted to go back to acting.

I also feel like the relationship hit a bump it never recovered from when Megan forced Don's hand in casting her for the shoe commercial, which lead to her soap opera gig.  I wonder what about that moment made Don at least subconsciously decide he was through with Megan?  He does try when he suggest they move to LA, but one can tell that the spark is gone and he is grasping at straws.

[small potatoes]

On 1/20/2018 at 1:23 PM, Luckylyn said:

So Don was telling himself in Tomorrowland that he was proposing to a Madonna but subconsciously was using her as a secretary with benefits.  

No. I'm not saying that. I don't think either Don or Dick thought of her as a Madonna, and Don could have had a cast of thousands if he merely wanted a secretary with benefits.

It was as if Don Draper picked out a wife and forced Dick Whitman to fall in love with her. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by small potatoes

[Inquisitionist]

5 hours ago, small potatoes said:

It was as if Don Draper picked out a wife and forced Dick Whitman to fall in love with her. 

That's interesting.  Thinking back, there certainly were signs that Don was "shopping" for a new wife and mother.  He tried to thrust that role on Faye in The Beautiful Girls, and she failed miserably.  When he saw Meghan dealing so casually with the spilled milkshake, the contrast wasn't only (or maybe even primarily) with Betty, but with Faye.  

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, small potatoes said:

It was as if Don Draper picked out a wife and forced Dick Whitman to fall in love with her. 

Yes, when you think about it, Megan being the hotshot copywriter and accounts woman who's "good at everything" came *after* the proposal. Sure she'd expressed interest in learning from him before, but she was still a secretary and then a nanny. The stuff with the kids is good for Don as a father, but I always felt like whenever Don was attracted to that sort of woman (Miss Farrell being an obvious example), he might have started out liking that she was good with Sally but really it was *him* who wanted the loving mother. And that's all Dick (although Dick also likes advertising so it's good if Megan does too). Faye was definitely dating Don Draper more than Dick Whitman. And when she "met" Dick in terms of learning about Don's past she wanted him to deal with it like a sophisticated adult instead of just giving him a motherly hug. She wasn't motherly at all, in her own words.

Btw, I was just recently re-watching Guy Walks Into An Ad Agency and I hadn't remembered that earlier in the episode Roger actually tells a story about his own father getting his arm cut off in the car accident that killed him. A little violent amputation foreshadowing, complete with the "that's life" contrast of his father's severed arm having perfectly manicured nails. 

[voiceover]

Well, it only took 6 times through, but Hell froze over, and I'm pretty sure I like Megan now.

Watching "To Have and to Hold", and -- though I *always* hated Don's reax to Megan's love scenes (showing up on set was one of the biggest-ever Draper Dick Moves) -- this time I was really pissed.

It was never because I was a Faye fan.  I liked Faye, but I wasn't invested in that relationship.  It was my investment in Don's development  as a person.  I remember thinking: He's finally evolving.

But.  Just like any good addict, he was fooling me.  Lulling me into believing this new guy; then -- BOOM! a return to Draperdom.  And of course, I blamed Megan.

And MW didn't help by writing her into almost every ep.  I felt forced to embrace the character, and I just.  Didn't.  Wanna!

Now though I'm all "Dump his ass, honey!" whenever they fight.

[small potatoes]

On 1/20/2018 at 5:26 PM, qtpye said:

You forgot the best part...Don and Megan will become the beautiful and talented power couple of advertising.  They will be an unstoppable pair that no one can beat.  This actually bore out until Megan wanted to go back to acting.

I also feel like the relationship hit a bump it never recovered from when Megan forced Don's hand in casting her for the shoe commercial, which lead to her soap opera gig.  I wonder what about that moment made Don at least subconsciously decide he was through with Megan?  He does try when he suggest they move to LA, but one can tell that the spark is gone and he is grasping at straws.

Whenever it was that he decided he was through with her didn't come soon enough. It was probably about the same time he had his tooth pulled. MegaDon is so much easier to watch in Season Six because Don isn't faking it anymore. They're much more natural together when they're not trying to convince themselves, and the world, that they have this once in a lifetime romance. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Whenever it was that he decided he was through with her didn't come soon enough. It was probably about the same time he had his tooth pulled. MegaDon is so much easier to watch in Season Six because Don isn't faking it anymore. They're much more natural together when they're not trying to convince themselves, and the world, that they have this once in a lifetime romance. 

I think it also helps a lot that Megan adopts a more Betty-like role, where she isn't in every scene, unlike in Season 5 where she dominated.  I'm trying to remember, but don't she and Don get to the point where Megan visits New York during the first half of Season 7 shortly after Don returns to the firm, and Don's secretary had no idea he was even married?  I think you can see that line physically cut Megan from the way she reacts.   

[Inquisitionist]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

don't she and Don get to the point where Megan visits New York during the first half of Season 7 shortly after Don returns to the firm, and Don's secretary had no idea he was even married?  I think you can see that line physically cut Megan from the way she reacts.   

Yes, this happens in Ep. 7-6, The Strategy, which is after the weird menage-a-trois back in LA in Ep. 7-5, The Runaways.  (I recently rewatched S7 for the first time since it aired.)   Don and Megan have this idyllic play-acting weekend in NY, but at the end of it, Megan is scouring the closet for a fondue pot to take back to LA, and talking about meeting Don somewhere other than NY or LA "next time."  As the Slant review put it:

Quote

Joan’s refusal is blunt and honest, whereas Megan (Jessica Paré) proved to be a master of calculated evasion. As she begins to pack up all evidence of her existence in New York, Megan uses a planned vacation to distract Don from the fact that she feels removed from his idea of their life together. There’s a great shot about midway through the episode of Don waking up, seemingly alone, with Megan seen obfuscated by a window and seemingly far away on the patio. The episode is about preparation or, perhaps more pointedly, the futility of preparation in the face of genuine personal insight.

[ivygirl]

Caught the last third of “Field Trip” today on Audience. While I generally love  the episode, I did happen to catch Megan’s “This is how it ends!” speech and it had all the emotional resonance of her soap opera acting. Was that purposeful? To show us that Megan really did lack real emotional range and that’s why she kept failing at getting parts? Especially compare to Betty’s strong reaction to Bobby and the sandwich—her feelings seep through the screen. Really? More real feelings over a sandwich (of course deeper than the sandwich) than the end of a marriage?

It’s funny; I don’t care for Megan in general, and I don’t think Jessica Pare is a wonderful actress, but for some reason I kind of wondered if we were supposed to see something rehearsed and inauthentic in her at that moment. I dunno. Maybe I drank the Weiner Kool-Aid. (Wait. Ew.)

Edited February 11, 2018 by ivygirl

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, ivygirl said:

Caught the last third of “Field Trip” today on Audience. While I generally love  the episode, I did happen to catch Megan’s “This is how it ends!” speech and it had all the emotional resonance of her soap opera acting. Was that purposeful? To show us that Megan really did lack real emotional range and that’s why she kept failing at getting parts? Especially compare to Betty’s strong reaction to Bobby and the sandwich—her feelings seep through the screen. Really? More real feelings over a sandwich (of course deeper than the sandwich) than the end of a marriage?

That would be ironic considering Betty is the one who has the artificial affect--the way she sort of presents as a proper little girl a lot of the time, clearly taught to stay ladylike and speak in this very proper way. She's very controlled. Even in the scene with Bobby, iirc, one of the most devastating moment is when she just puts on her sunglasses. Meanwhile Megan, according to MW, is the more modern woman based on the European beauty model. She's supposed to be freer. She's the one everyone can see is falling apart in California. The one happily performing her love for Don in front of everyone at the party.

I suspect a big part of what's happening in the scene really is just that Jessica Pare herself isn't able to convey much depth to her feelings for Don, and is unable to convey a difference between Megan performing cheesy soap opera lines and Megan expressing her actual emotions--that seems like it would require a real technical skill in an actor. But it is tempting to think about Megan being artificial in ways Betty herself actually wasn't. Like Betty had a studied way of presenting herself but underneath her emotions were real. Where as Megan has a studied appearance of being free and authentic when really she's not feeling it.

[ivygirl]

It’s entirely possible that I’m seeing more than what’s there—I certainly just thought of the scene as evidence of Pare’s mediocrity the first several times I saw this episode—but I guess it was the juxtaposition of Betty being “improper” (drinking the raw milk straight out of the bucket) and vulnerable (wondering to Henry if her kids really loved her) against Megan, deteriorating as an actress out in LA, probably wondering if *Don* really loved her... that speech seemed like something she’d mentally rehearsed and was just waiting to say at the first hint of criticism or other negative comments/behavior from Don directed at her.

Again, I’m no fan of the Megan character or of Pare in the role... just saw something differently, and it struck me as interesting.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, ivygirl said:

It’s entirely possible that I’m seeing more than what’s there—I certainly just thought of the scene as evidence of Pare’s mediocrity the first several times I saw this episode—but I guess it was the juxtaposition of Betty being “improper” (drinking the raw milk straight out of the bucket) and vulnerable (wondering to Henry if her kids really loved her) against Megan, deteriorating as an actress out in LA, probably wondering if *Don* really loved her... that speech seemed like something she’d mentally rehearsed and was just waiting to say at the first hint of criticism or other negative comments/behavior from Don directed at her.

Oh no, I actually agree. I feel like I have to remind myself that it might just be a problem with the actress, but I think it actually does seem a lot like Megan to think this is the type of thing she rehearsed and isn't preforming that well. Because a lot of Don and Megan's marriage was so performative it would make sense if Megan sees the guy drifting away and doesn't know what to do since she never really got to know him deeply, and falls back on dramatic cliches that she can at least understand. It's not really that different from the start of their relationship. They're just playing a series of scenes to fill in for the actual intimacy that isn't there.