Past Seasons Discussion : Tales From The Crypt

Aeryn13 · April 17, 2016

I never really understood this merging. It was said the "stronger" twin wins. Stronger how? Stronger magic user? Stronger will?

And if the merging of Kai and Luke was successful as it appeared to be because Kai suddenly had emotions, then how could he be just Kai again after the prison world? I thought the two personalities were now permanently intertwined so it would have been impossible for Kai to switch off half of himself and go back to the way he was. That`s like mixing black and white together, after you`ve done it, you can`t go back to just black or white again.

That`s IMO the drop in quality in the latter Seasons. Things aren`t really planned out anymore and don``t have to make sense with previously established canon. Continuity has been taken behind the shed and shot. I hated the very idea of siphoner vampires because it was such a lame way to create a new super-being.

ByTor · April 18, 2016

I remember when everyone and their dog hated Rebekah for "killing" Elena even though she did it to save her family's life - and consequently - the life of every other vampire in the world.

I have always hated Rebekah...although I think my dog would probably like her ;-) In this scenario, Rebekah said (I think to Matt) that he & his friends kill to protect each other, but she is considered evil (along with her brothers) when they do the same. That's when the "oh yeah, she's right" light bulb went on for me.

ByTor · April 18, 2016

I hated the very idea of siphoner vampires because it was such a lame way to create a new super-being.

And, don't forget, they were the most super of super beings, until for plot purposes they weren't. That, IMO, is the most frustrating part, and these inconsistencies are why I wish they would have just hung it up after this season.

Couver · April 19, 2016

Rebekah was correct when she said that but the Originals were/are not in a position to lecture anyone on morality. It's just the nature of these types of shows that they want the audience to root for the grey characters.

Aeryn13 · April 19, 2016

but the Originals were/are not in a position to lecture anyone on morality.

That is very true but I think in that case her point was more that "the good guys" were in no position to lecture her either. The Mikealson share the same tribal mentality as the Fellowship of the Falls did, they were just at it longer.And yet the Gang really enjoyed their highhorse for an unduly amount.

I will say I did love little moments of the Originals "calling them on things". Elijah being all prim and proper about it and would straighten place mats and such. Or Klaus little faces of "oh my, you are making a scene" faces when Caroline unleashed her inner Stelena shipper on Elena at that party in Season 4. One of the funniest moments of the show for me. Klaus dramaqueen Mikealson being embarassed at someone else making a scene.

miss-vanilla · April 19, 2016

HEEE! Those were good times.

I so agree with the tribal mentality thing, it's something that I both love and dislike about this group, mainly because on the one hand it is so heartwarming to see how far they will each go to protect each other, but on the other, they are so oblivious in their hypocrisy. Nothing much has changed in that department, except their are no Originals to call them out anymore.

Bort · April 20, 2016

April somehow managed to survive, although I like to think she was devoured by a vampire at some point off screen because wow, I did not like her. I never understood why the show spent an entire season trying to make April happen.

Bort · April 20, 2016

I didn't say she was. I was just throwing her out there as a generic tertiary character that managed to not get killed off. This show kills pretty much all of them, I think there are only about three of them that managed to escape the usual gruesome death.

Couver · April 20, 2016

April somehow managed to survive, although I like to think she was devoured by a vampire at some point off screen because wow, I did not like her. I never understood why the show spent an entire season trying to make April happen.

I agree. I felt like the show was trying to build up to something with her but then it went nowhere. She interacted with a ton of the main cast but it amounted to nothing. I feel like there was probably something planned and then it got dropped for whatever reason. I can't say I am that sorry though she was a rather bland character.

Didn't Bonnie's sort of adoptive brother Jamie make it out alive too?

ByTor · April 20, 2016

Rebekah was correct when she said that but the Originals were/are not in a position to lecture anyone on morality.

I was under the impression she was lecturing them more on their hypocrisy.

MrsMommy · April 21, 2016

So like a crazy person I started watching from the start AGAIN on netflix. Season 2 episode 8 bonnie does a locator spell to find Elaine using Jeremy blood, she said bc they are blood related the signal will be strong... but Elaine is adopted... How would Jeremy be blood related?

betterthisway · July 3, 2016

This show kills me. I have such a love/hate relationship with it. Some general opinions:

1. Like many of you, the first two seasons are my favorite. The first in particular is so much better written and acted than it gets credit for. I love the first two seasons of this show more than any season of Supernatural or Buffy, so I think we need an unpopular opinions thread for freaks like me, lol.

2. I honestly love Elena Gilbert in the first season and for most of the second. See the above item regarding needing an unpopular opinions section for people like me!

3. Loved Stefan and Elena so much more than I could admit anywhere other than the internet, lol. I knew what was coming so I didn't want to invest in them in any way, but I loved them together.

4. Damon is fun as a snarky adversary who loves Stefan deep down, but I always end up hating him as a love interest for anyone.

5. Stefan is my favorite character, Caroline is probably my second favorite character once I grew to dislike Elena in the middle seasons, but I don't like Stefan and Caroline together as a couple. Someone used the word "forced," and that captures how their relationship comes across to me.

6. I am the only TVD fan I know of who doesn't like Klaus at all and found the Caroline/Klaus pairing toxic even for this show.

7. I don't like the idea of a Bonnie/Damon match either. I feel like Bonnie deserves so much better.

8. I've finally given up the show now but all the later disappointment still hasn't tainted my love for those first two seasons. Maybe if I'd kept watching it would have!

Lisin · July 4, 2016

On 7/3/2016 at 9:52 AM, betterthisway said:

I am the only TVD fan I know of who doesn't like Klaus at all and found the Caroline/Klaus pairing toxic even for this show.

You're not alone!

rozay · August 10, 2016

On July 3, 2016 at 9:52 AM, betterthisway said:

This show kills me. I have such a love/hate relationship with it. Some general opinions:

1. Like many of you, the first two seasons are my favorite. The first in particular is so much better written and acted than it gets credit for. I love the first two seasons of this show more than any season of Supernatural or Buffy, so I think we need an unpopular opinions thread for freaks like me, lol.

2. I honestly love Elena Gilbert in the first season and for most of the second. See the above item regarding needing an unpopular opinions section for people like me!

3. Loved Stefan and Elena so much more than I could admit anywhere other than the internet, lol. I knew what was coming so I didn't want to invest in them in any way, but I loved them together.

4. Damon is fun as a snarky adversary who loves Stefan deep down, but I always end up hating him as a love interest for anyone.

5. Stefan is my favorite character, Caroline is probably my second favorite character once I grew to dislike Elena in the middle seasons, but I don't like Stefan and Caroline together as a couple. Someone used the word "forced," and that captures how their relationship comes across to me.

6. I am the only TVD fan I know of who doesn't like Klaus at all and found the Caroline/Klaus pairing toxic even for this show.

7. I don't like the idea of a Bonnie/Damon match either. I feel like Bonnie deserves so much better.

8. I've finally given up the show now but all the later disappointment still hasn't tainted my love for those first two seasons. Maybe if I'd kept watching it would have!

I love some of your points, they are too true!!!

1. I definitely loved Elena in the seasons where she was human. She was just so real & genuine. Her & stefan's love was pure! I loved when they were together!

2. Klaus was amazing to me, but he was a horrible person. He was so LIKEABLE!!!! I wanted to hate him for everything he had done but somehow he always ended up being on my good side.

3. Stefan & Caroline have GOT TO GO. They are definitely forced and Caroline just seems too needy. I liked her with Klaus or Tyler. There was more mutalism with those matches. Her & Stefan/Matt just made her super annoying & need so much attention. It wasn't natural.

4. Bonnie's dealt with too much BS in this series lol. TVD needs to even the playing field out bc she has had the short end of the stick for the entire series! I think her and Enzo are cute, but I also think it's interesting because he's a vampire and her very nature is be "against" vampires bc she's a witch and all. Will the witches on the "other-side" (or wherever they are now) be upset & take away her magic or something?!

DigitalCount · November 7, 2016

I see people upthread were already discussing this, but with the recent mention of April Young in the recent episode thread (803) I had to vent, lol. That character and her associated sub-plots have to represent some of the worst writing this show has ever given us. Why was she dropped so poorly? I still remember all the discussion and speculation when she showed up all needy and damaged.

I almost wonder if she was supposed to be the new Elena because she was just a squishy human. We first see her after she's lost a parent, she's melancholy, and she becomes intrigued with a group of vampires dealing with stuff beyond her understanding. She ends up allying with vampires she thinks are good instead of the ones she thinks are evil. The seeds for a parallel are there, but then she just...walked away. It's probably the thing that always bothered me the most, oddly enough.

KatWay · November 13, 2016

the writing on this show has been abysmal after season 3 and April is just another character who exemplifies that. There were tons of characters who were introduced and never made an impact. Like Aaron. Introduced as an innocent loner who had a tragic upbringing, thanks to Damon, only to be killed by Damon presumably to throw a wrench into Delena...except Elena didn't even care. Nor did his uncle. They introduce characters like plot points without any outside or inner life, which makes it impossible to care about them. Why should I as a viewer care when the characters don't.

With April I don't even know what the point of her was. They just wrote her out when reception was poor apparently but at the very least they could have given her a purpose first.

Bort · November 13, 2016

I was just happy that they had the sense to cut their losses on the April character. I didn't need for her to have a swansong, being rid of her was good enough for me.

Iknewyoucoulddoit · March 4, 2017

Hi all! New here but an old fan of the show, or at least the first few seasons of it. I looked for a UO thread here but couldn't find it, so please be forewarned that some of the opinions I'm venting here are weird and held by almost no one else :) Speaking of -

I love Elena Gilbert. Granted, only pre-vampire Elena Gilbert. I'm sure there are psychological reasons rooted in some of my own experiences that explain why I need to see her as relatable and likable, but I just know that I care about her and feel she's a more layered character than anyone else feels she is :) To me she's someone who was never truly happy even before her parents' death, confident but just going through the motions, and became more introspective, self-doubting and feeling as a result of her parents' death. I think she now follows her heart even when it leads herself and others into horrible situations but does always mean well, as weak a consolation as that may be. I just like and get her somehow, at least until around S4. But I love Dawn Summers too, so maybe I've got some genetic quirk that forces me to love characters who others understandably hate!

Stefan/Elena of the first two seasons will always be one of my favorite fictional couples. I have no defense for feeling this way, but 'shipping' isn't rational!

I dislike Stefan/Caroline as more than friends. It feels so forced and there's such a lack of real chemistry or joy there to me. The only thing I like less is the idea of Caroline with Klaus. I love Caroline overall, but she's one of these characters who's always much more lovable to me outside of her romantic relationships.

Klaus isn't compelling or intriguing to me, just repulsive. Even by the standards of this show, he's just horrible.

I get why some see Stefan as a discount Angel, though I see them as somewhat different. Damon, though, is total discount Spike to me.

I agree with the posters who said the first two or three seasons of this show are surprisingly great TV and really underrated. I still love them despite resenting a lot of what follows. My frustration with later seasons initially turned me off to the show in general but now make me appreciate the early ones more.

Lady Calypso · March 4, 2017

3 hours ago, Iknewyoucoulddoit said:

Hi all! New here but an old fan of the show, or at least the first few seasons of it. I looked for a UO thread here but couldn't find it, so please be forewarned that some of the opinions I'm venting here are weird and held by almost no one else :) Speaking of -

I love Elena Gilbert. Granted, only pre-vampire Elena Gilbert. I'm sure there are psychological reasons rooted in some of my own experiences that explain why I need to see her as relatable and likable, but I just know that I care about her and feel she's a more layered character than anyone else feels she is :) To me she's someone who was never truly happy even before her parents' death, confident but just going through the motions, and became more introspective, self-doubting and feeling as a result of her parents' death. I think she now follows her heart even when it leads herself and others into horrible situations but does always mean well, as weak a consolation as that may be. I just like and get her somehow, at least until around S4. But I love Dawn Summers too, so maybe I've got some genetic quirk that forces me to love characters who others understandably hate!

Stefan/Elena of the first two seasons will always be one of my favorite fictional couples. I have no defense for feeling this way, but 'shipping' isn't rational!

I dislike Stefan/Caroline as more than friends. It feels so forced and there's such a lack of real chemistry or joy there to me. The only thing I like less is the idea of Caroline with Klaus. I love Caroline overall, but she's one of these characters who's always much more lovable to me outside of her romantic relationships.

Klaus isn't compelling or intriguing to me, just repulsive. Even by the standards of this show, he's just horrible.

I get why some see Stefan as a discount Angel, though I see them as somewhat different. Damon, though, is total discount Spike to me.

I agree with the posters who said the first two or three seasons of this show are surprisingly great TV and really underrated. I still love them despite resenting a lot of what follows. My frustration with later seasons initially turned me off to the show in general but now make me appreciate the early ones more.

Are these unpopular opinions? Well if they are, then I am in the same boat. Thee's not one thing here I disagree with. Human Elena was badass, especially for a human. She was surprisingly resourceful, brave, and pretty selfless. She cared about everyone around her and she was willing to make sacrifices to save others, even though she knew she, as a human, had her limits. Human Elena will forever remain one of my favourite human characters in a supernatural series.

And Stefan/Elena, at least now pre-vampire Elena, will remain my favourite couple of the series. She truly was better with Stefan. I just can't stand Damon/Elena. I actually used to enjoy their chemistry back before she turned into a vampire and the sire bond was created, but I never wanted them as a couple. And then they kept forcing reasons for them to be soulmates and I don't like being told who I have to like, and I don't like a couple being shoved down my throat.

Stefan/Caroline as friends is great. Stefan/Caroline as lovers is not fun. But Klaus/Caroline as anything is not my cup of tea. To throw in an even more unpopular opinion, I've never seen this "epic chemistry" that Joseph and Candice supposedly share. I actually loved Tyler/Caroline together. They were easily my second favourite couple on the series.

The first two and a half seasons are great. The second half of the third season varies in term of likability for me. But around season four is when things start derailing. I stopped watching around season six. I've caught clips online and been catching up on some points since, but I have not watched a full episode since early season six. Which is why I'm probably also a little confused by Bonnie/Enzo and am not really interested in them at all.

Aeryn13 · March 4, 2017

I think the show was easily at its storytelling best during the second half of Season 1 and the entire of Season 2. Then in Season 3 it sagged a bit but the quality was still high overall.

Kinda all started going downhill when the idea of the "cure" was introduced. So stupid. I like watching a show about vampires. And vampirism has been portrayed as pretty much all perks with very little drawbacks on this show. So I seriously did not get anyone wanting to be cured.

The last two Seasons just have been pretty awful. Season 5 had a very weak villain in the Travellers but the Finale was strong.

Now despite greatly enjoying the first few Seasons, I never liked Stelena as a couple. She just brought out the holier-than-thou in Stefan which was my least favourite thing about the character. I enjoyed Season 3 and onwards Stefan much more. Actually, he was the only character I felt still had some good development in later Seasons.

The brotherly bonding yielded some lovely moments in Season 6. Easily better than anything shippy during that time.

They weren`t real a contender for romantic couple back in Seasons 1 and 2, but I thought Damon and Elena had vastly more chemistry than Stelena. Unfortunately, once they got together, it was written really badly. And their scenes weren`t as fun. It was noticeable the actors broke up in real life. Which actually happens quite often, I think. Actors start dating and it leads to a really sizzling and romantic chemistry onscreen and somehow right when the show puts the characters together, the actors will break up and everything will be awkward. Makes me sigh every time.

betweenthebanter · March 4, 2017

I agree with what a lot of you have said. This show was so amazing to me during the back half of Season 1 and all of Season 2, then somewhere in Season 3 I started to lose love for it. For me, the two biggest problems in Season 3 were: 1. The triangle was always important, but that season it felt like a lot more focus was given to it than in the past two seasons. 2. Too much screentime was given to The Originals, imo. I really enjoyed Rebecca and Elijah too, at least when he first came on, but I felt that the show started to focus too much around them until they left for their own show.

In terms of ships, both Damon/Elena and Stefan/Elena had their moments for me. I couldn't really get into Stefan/Elena at the start, because I felt their love was rushed, but they had some great moments throughout their relationship. I shipped Damon/Elena for maybe a season or two, but then I started to grow annoyed with it and that mess of the sire bond storyline completely ruined any shipping feelings that I had left for them. In general, I've always been more interested in the brothers' relationship, than either of their relationships with Elena.

In hindsight, for me Tyler/Caroline were the best couple on this show. I loved them while they happened and hated Klaus interfering with them, but I wish I had appreciated them more.

Stefan/Caroline, I have complicated feelings about this ship. After they became friends in Season 2, I really loved them and hoped they would happen one day. The nostalgic part of me is happy that they got together, but I'll admit in many ways it is not what I hoped for and I wish it had been handled differently (same as for a lot of other stuff on this show).

Klaus/Caroline, I've hated this ship for a long time and I'm going to be so disappointed if they're endgame. I hated how they ruined Tyler/Caroline when Caroline hooked up with Klaus. I'll always love Caroline, but I did lose a lot of my attachment when the Klaus stuff happened. They are the definition of fan service and I think the writers knew that, which is why they never considered the idea of them actually getting together from Caroline's POV (besides her physical attraction for him). As much as I'm disappointed with the handling of Stefan/Caroline, I still much prefer it to this because I believe Caroline wants Stefan in a much larger way than she has ever wanted/will want Klaus. In my opinion, from what we've seen of Caroline, it would be so OOC if she one day shows up on The Originals ready to be with Klaus.

Bonnie/Enzo, I support it because of how much Bonnie loves him and because he loves Bonnie like she deserves to be loved. I would have probably been more into it, if I actually cared about Enzo though.

Iknewyoucoulddoit · March 4, 2017

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this show was so amazing to me during the back half of Season 1 and all of Season 2,

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I think the show was easily at its storytelling best during the second half of Season 1 and the entire of Season 2. Then in Season 3 it sagged a bit but the quality was still high overall.

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The first two and a half seasons are great.

I love that so many of us feel this way, even those of us who are bitter about the last several seasons. I'm a Buffyverse fan, but S2 of TVD and large parts of S1 and S3 as well are right up there with the very best of Buffy and Angel for me, as blasphemous as some Buffy fans may consider that :)

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Klaus/Caroline, I've hated this ship for a long time and I'm going to be so disappointed if they're endgame. I hated how they ruined Tyler/Caroline when Caroline hooked up with Klaus. I'll always love Caroline, but I did lose a lot of my attachment when the Klaus stuff happened. They are the definition of fan service and I think the writers knew that, which is why they never considered the idea of them actually getting together from Caroline's POV (besides her physical attraction for him). As much as I'm disappointed with the handling of Stefan/Caroline, I still much prefer it to this because I believe Caroline wants Stefan in a much larger way than she has ever wanted/will want Klaus.

I agree with a lot of this and would add that my ultimate ending for Caroline would be to decide to be happily single at least for the time being and see where life takes her. Given Caroline's insecurities, I think that would be a great end for her character, but TV writers seem legally obligated to pair off almost every character in series' finales, so I'm not holding my breath

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in many ways it is not what I hoped for and I wish it had been handled differently (same as for a lot of other stuff on this show).

This perfectly sums up how I end up feeling about most shows that run for longer than a few seasons, very much including this one!

But as much as I complain about this show, I have to admit that when I showed a few S1 episodes to a friend who had never seen the show just a few weeks ago, I found myself sucked in all over again. There's something about the storytelling style that's incredibly engaging even when it isn't objectively very good! And I really do enjoy most of these characters for the first few seasons, especially when I convneiently block out how most of them are written later and just pretend they stayed or became who I imagined them to be. Deliberate denial is the key to loving many of my TV shows. :)

Edited March 4, 2017 by Iknewyoucoulddoit

Aeryn13 · March 4, 2017

I think what worked really well in those early Seasons was the pacing. I`m used to shows dragging things out ad nauseum and here they started a mini-arc, introduced some new (minor) villain and bam, before they could begin to annoy, they were gone. Some characters, I was sad to lose quickly like Anna for example. But for example killing off Vicki a few episodes in was really ballsy.

Then the twists and turns. Katherine isn`t in the tomb. Wow, Elena and Damon kiss. OMG, Elena is cutting off uncle John`s finger? She is not Elena, she is KATHERINE.

Stuff like the sun and the moon curse turning out to be some shit Klaus made up for his own gain. And because he is a 1000 years old, it`s legitimate he could pepper historical text with his own clues. Mind. blown.

I also loved the awesome decades dances and balls with all the carnage going on and the dinner parties from hell. Damon and Alaric furiously communicating without words that the dagger is deadly if a vampire uses it on an Original so Elijah doesn`t hear anything? Comedy gold.

When Stefan got a little bit more bad boy, a real dry, snarky wit came out. I adored that. Human Elena was such a badass, stabbing herself to fake Elijah out. Katherine was the queen of snark and manipulation. Elijah throwing coins at a window totally demolishing it. Bonnie taking on Klaus like a boss. Damon locking Katherine into the tomb.

So many fantastic memories from those early Seasons. I had given up on the show after the Pilot because I thought it was really bad. But then I started reading that the show had gotten so much better and decided to give it one more chance. Got the Season 1 DVD and got really into it.

Season 7 nearly broke me, though. It was so, so, so bad.

Iknewyoucoulddoit · March 4, 2017

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I think what worked really well in those early Seasons was the pacing. I`m used to shows dragging things out ad nauseum and here they started a mini-arc, introduced some new (minor) villain and bam, before they could begin to annoy, they were gone. Some characters, I was sad to lose quickly like Anna for example. But for example killing off Vicki a few episodes in was really ballsy.

Then the twists and turns. Katherine isn`t in the tomb. Wow, Elena and Damon kiss. OMG, Elena is cutting off uncle John`s finger? She is not Elena, she is KATHERINE.

Stuff like the sun and the moon curse turning out to be some shit Klaus made up for his own gain. And because he is a 1000 years old, it`s legitimate he could pepper historical text with his own clues. Mind. blown.

I also loved the awesome decades dances and balls with all the carnage going on and the dinner parties from hell. Damon and Alaric furiously communicating without words that the dagger is deadly if a vampire uses it on an Original so Elijah doesn`t hear anything? Comedy gold.

When Stefan got a little bit more bad boy, a real dry, snarky wit came out. I adored that. Human Elena was such a badass, stabbing herself to fake Elijah out. Katherine was the queen of snark and manipulation. Elijah throwing coins at a window totally demolishing it. Bonnie taking on Klaus like a boss. Damon locking Katherine into the tomb.

So many fantastic memories from those early Seasons. I had given up on the show after the Pilot because I thought it was really bad. But then I started reading that the show had gotten so much better and decided to give it one more chance. Got the Season 1 DVD and got really into it.

ALL of this! (Except that I loved the Pilot for some reason and was hooked immediately, lol). In addition to everything you mentioned, I loved how in the first few seasons there was this interesting exploration of how the past sometimes does come full circle and continues to influence the present in a variety of ways. It raised some very interesting issues about why and whether history is sometimes doomed to repeat itself, how we can break free of those cycles and patterns, how even ancestors we don't know of affect who we are and how we live today. Not trying to give the show credit for being deeper than it is, but it felt like the first few seasons did a great job of showing how heavily past events impacted Mystic Falls and the people in it. Plus, as a huge bonus, we got to see our characters in gorgeous costumes from other eras :)

Bort · March 4, 2017

I liked the character development we got. For instance, we saw through all of season 1 how Caroline was as a human teenager, the flaws and insecurities she had, and then season 2 starts and bam, she's a vampire. And it was neat to see how it changed her and made her more confident. How her interactions with the other characters changed. Stefan barely gave her the time of day before but afterwards, it gave them something in common that they were able to build a friendship, and later a relationship, on. The episode where she turns remains my favorite to this day.

Katherine · March 5, 2017

I agree with so much of what has been said. I have always hated the idea of Klaus and Caroline. I really dislike Klaus as a character. I find him whiny and not remotely compelling, and I just don't see any chemistry between him and Caroline. Add that to the fact that Klaroline was never really a focal point in the writing (the most I remember is the pony drawing and then the random hookup in season 4 or 5), and it baffles me that the pairing has such a big fanbase. To each their own, I guess!

During the first few seasons, Damon was my favorite character and I really shipped him with Elena. I remember being so frustrated that they got together right when we found out about the stupid sire bond. I enjoyed the season 4 finale when Elena officially chose Damon, but that was the last time I can remember ever enjoying a scene between them. They were written so terribly in season 5 that the pairing was completely ruined for me, to the point where I can't even enjoy their scenes from the first few seasons anymore. I'm not sure if it's entirely because of the writing or if it's something in the acting, but I just can't root for those two to get a happy ending together.

I was never a fan of Stelena, mostly because I felt like they were a little too forced. I hated being told how "epic" they were, and I thought for sure the writers intended them to be endgame, with only a brief Delena interlude. But now I much prefer Stelena to Delena. There's been a reversal where Delena feels forced to me lately. I understand Elena's attraction to Damon--I think we saw that as early as season 1--but I just don't know how or at what point he became "the love of [her] life". It felt to me like a case of being told, rather than being shown. Maybe I'm just contrary :) I also feel like Delena happened to coincide with when Elena became much less likeable and relatable, so that might be partly why I stopped shipping them.

When the idea of Steroline was first introduced, I think I enjoyed their friendship but didn't want it to go beyond that, maybe because I figured she would be viewed as a sort of consolation prize for Stefan, always coming in second to Elena. But in season 5 or 6, I started to really love the idea of Steroline. I thought there was some nice build-up during Liz's illness. I remember being excited about their first kiss and happy that they were taking this direction with Stefan. I loved the idea that his epic love wasn't at all what he expected; it turned out to be someone who started as his best friend and whom he never really considered. But then the writers messed it all up when Caroline turned off her humanity. I feel like the pairing never really recovered after that, and now I just don't see any chemistry at all. It's interesting that the two relationships with the longest build-up--Delena and Steroline--ended up, IMO, suffering the most from weak writing once the couples actually got together.

I really dislike Bonnie and Enzo together. The lack of build-up combined with (IMO) a lack of chemistry makes the relationship feel so inorganic, like they just threw together these two characters to give them something to do (and maybe to quiet Bamon shippers). It's frustrating because Bonnie deserves better. I appreciate that the writers appeared to be trying to give Bonnie this epic love story through scenes where she and Enzo waxed poetic about their romance, but it just never rang true for me.

So I guess the only couple I would actually like to see end up together would be Caroline and Tyler (though this obviously isn't going to happen). They had such a sweet build-up in season 2 and I'll probably forever ship them because of that (even though, once again, the writing wasn't that great once they actually got together). I also kind of love the idea of Bamon, but I feel like the way the Steroline move from friendship to romance was handled suggests that Bonnie and Damon are probably better off staying friends. Plus, it was obvious that Bamon was never a real possibility as endgame, since Damon would never choose Bonnie over Elena. And I also totally understand those who hate Bamon simply because of Damon's past treatment of Bonnie.

So now to end on a positive note. I've said it many times before, but my favorite part of the show is the relationship between Stefan and Damon. Paul and Ian do such great work together. Right from the beginning, I was sucked into the family dynamic. I love their flashbacks. And I feel like some of the most powerful moments of the show have come when the focus has been on Damon and Stefan as brothers. Their season 6 reunion/hug might be my all time favorite TVD moment.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Katherine

Aeryn13 · March 5, 2017

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Plus, as a huge bonus, we got to see our characters in gorgeous costumes from other eras :)

Oh, I loved the early Season flashbacks. I always felt they enrichened the episodes and didn`t feel like "insert flashback here to fill time". It was also like a little puzzle/separate story that continued unfolding over time.

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Not trying to give the show credit for being deeper than it is, but it felt like the first few seasons did a great job of showing how heavily past events impacted Mystic Falls and the people in it.

Heh. Even the brothers at points commented on them basically reliving the Katherine cicle with Elena being insanity. But they couldn`t stop themselves either.

But in the end I think it actually did them some good because Elena was a different person than Katherine. Kat tore their relationship apart which seemed to be pretty good in their pre-vampire days. Then their focus on Elena forced them to stay in the same place for years, IMO a first during their vampire-life. And yes, Elena also brought them to the brink of being shattered forever. But they came out stronger at the other end as brothers.

As much as I think the triangle writing gave us all grief at some points, I thought it was sweet to see such a thing have a positive outcome for once of the non-romantic variety.

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And I feel like some of the most powerful moments of the show have come when the focus has been on Damon and Stefan as brothers. Their season 6 reunion/hug might be my all time favorite TVD moment.

That scene made me tear up. So beautiful. The Defan and Bamon moments were the best thing our regular characters had going on during Season 6. Kai was the best on the villain-side in a long while.

Iknewyoucoulddoit · March 6, 2017

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Oh, I loved the early Season flashbacks. I always felt they enrichened the episodes and didn`t feel like "insert flashback here to fill time". It was also like a little puzzle/separate story that continued unfolding over time.

I know! Sometimes I wanted to spend more time back there and less in the present day.

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I think what worked really well in those early Seasons was the pacing. I`m used to shows dragging things out ad nauseum and here they started a mini-arc, introduced some new (minor) villain and bam, before they could begin to annoy, they were gone. Some characters, I was sad to lose quickly like Anna for example. But for example killing off Vicki a few episodes in was really ballsy.

Then the twists and turns

That was a major part of what hooked me on S1 and S2 and still keeps me riveted to those episodes - the pacing is a whirlwind, with more happening in most individual episodes of TVD than seems to happen in about 10 episodes of many other shows, and yet it usually didn't feel too rushed or overcrowded, just compelling and incredibly fun to watch even now that I know what happens.

I've loved recalling what drew many of us to the show. I'm so used to focusing on our many complaints as fans - not that they're not valid!- that it's nice to be reminded of why I wasn't not too insane for loving it at the very beginning and still feeling attached to it despite its many problems.

I have a question for you all related to a fanfic that I will no doubt be too lazy to actually write. :) What do you all see as the main differences and similarities among Elena, Bonnie and Caroline? What do you see as their core personality traits? Which of them do you see as the most introverted, the most extroverted, most led by their heart, most led by their head, the most inuitive, the most logical, the most emotional, the most intellectual and so on? There are times when they're all written as very frustratingly similar. Someone wrote a post with a long list of adjectives, and I realized every single one of those adjectives could apply equally to all three of them!

This seems to be the one place on the internet where we can politely discuss different views about TVD ships and still like and respect people whose opinions differ from ours, one of many reasons I love this place and wish I had found it sooner! I think my ideal pairings would be Elena/Stefan, Bonnie/Damon, Caroline/Tyler. I know that none of these will actually end up together in reality, but that never deters me. :) Given how much less I love most of the characters in later seasons, though, I'd probably be fine if no one ended up with anyone else and the characters and pairings just lived on in fanfic, where they're often better written anyway!

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Aeryn13 · March 6, 2017

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I have a question for you all related to a fanfic that I will no doubt be too lazy to actually write. :) What do you all see as the main differences and similarities among Elena, Bonnie and Caroline? What do you see as their core personality traits? Which of them do you see as the most introverted, the most extroverted, most led by their heart, most led by their head, the most inuitive, the most logical, the most emotional, the most intellectual and so on? There are times when they're all written as very frustratingly similar. Someone wrote a post with a long list of adjectives, and I realized every single one of those adjectives could apply equally to all three of them!

Interesting question. I`d say the most logical and led by their head would have to be Caroline. We have seen a lot of vampires on the show, some we even saw as humans first and of them all Caroline IMO makes the best vampire. Sure, Damon enjoys vampire life and he always had a rather good control of bloodlust but was too impulsive about everything else. Stefan was miserable. Elena too emotional. Alaric moped around too.

Caroline has embraced it. Her control freak-tendencies, mixed with her organized nature and usually sunny outlook allow her to live as much of a human-adjacent life as she wants to live while also enjoying the perks and possibilities. I know early on as a human it was a bit of a running gag how Caroline was the not-exactly-mean-girl-but-tactless-stereotype. She was blunt and outspoken. And it was not that she lacked empathy at all but since we know vamp nature heightens your predominent traits, it`s a good thing Caroline isn`t as emotional as other characters. I`d also say she is the most extroverted of them.

Bonnie is the most spiritual and, sadly, the most self-sacrificing. I mean, they would all sacrifice themsleves for someone they truly loved but there were several times in the show when someone told Bonnie not to do this or that magical thing magic or she would die from it and she matter-of-factly said "I don`t care". That is not who Caroline or even Elena are. They might do it as well but they would care about their own life.

I don`t know if you could say Bonnie is the most loving? In that she will hold on tightly to the people that she loves and does pour everything she has onto them. And enjoys their happiness. Of them all, I guess you could describe her as the most introverted but honestly, I don`t think any of the girls truly are. Bonnie possibly isn`t as outgoing but I wouldn`t say she is introverted really in my understanding of the term.

Elena is the most emotional one and the one most led by her heart. Which might seems strange since I just described Bonnie as the most loving but I see a difference between the two. Elena wants to see the good in people the most and would like to give them the benefit of a doubt, even when reason and logic would seem against it. I`d also put her down as the most intuitive (with Bonnie a close second).

Despite being more of a typical "good girl", there is IMO also a bit of a wild side to Elena. She does enjoy partying and dancing and a bit of unpredictability. It is hard for her to accept this about herself so or respectively she feels guilty about it. Except it`s not a crime to enjoy all that if you do not live it in excess.

I`m stumped on "most intellectual" here. They are all smart but I see none of them as drawn to is like say Alaric to researching the occult. Or researcher vamps like Isobel and Slater. If I had to choose, Bonnie maybe?

Sorry, that got pretty long-winded.

Bort · March 6, 2017

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`d say the most logical and led by their head would have to be Caroline. We have seen a lot of vampires on the show, some we even saw as humans first and of them all Caroline IMO makes the best vampire.

I thought Rose was a rather pragmatic and well-adjusted vampire. Especially for living 500 years and never having scored a daylight ring. I imagine being forced to be nocturnal when they don't want to be is pretty instrumental in a vampire losing it, but Rose was pretty cool. She was my favorite tertiary character that got killed off.

Aeryn13 · March 6, 2017

19 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I thought Rose was a rather pragmatic and well-adjusted vampire. Especially for living 500 years and never having scored a daylight ring. I imagine being forced to be nocturnal when they don't want to be is pretty instrumental in a vampire losing it, but Rose was pretty cool. She was my favorite tertiary character that got killed off.

OMG, that always drives me bonkers, just like with Lexi. I get that there needed to be some vamps in the show that didn`t have any but because we are used to the main characters, they seemed so easy to come by. It was very much like "you don`t have a daylight ring? what`s wrong with you?" That Stefan never even tried to hook Lexi up with one, I don`t understand.

And Rose (and Trevor) even seemed to associated with Klaus and Elijah back in the day. Who clearly had them. Guess Katherine stole the recipe AND was smart enough to cozy up to (Bennett) witches all over the place.

But I agree about Rose, I really liked her too.

Iknewyoucoulddoit · March 6, 2017

@Aeryn13, your answers were perfect and helped me so much!

I understand completely what you mean about Bonnie ultimately being the most loving, feeling and selfless character even though Elena is led more by her heart and emotions. Bonnie became more understandably guarded and cynical as the series progressed and is less trusting and initially open than Elena or even Caroline but ultimately cares deeply about others and is, as you pointed out, very intuistive and instinctive as well.

How would you all rate the seasons from your favorite to least favorite? I think mine would be S2, S1, S3, S6 (Love Damon and Bonnie in a different dimension and found Kai one of the series' best antagonists), S4, S5, S7, S8.

Aeryn13 · March 6, 2017

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How would you all rate the seasons from your favorite to least favorite? I think mine would be S2, S1, S3, S6 (Love Damon and Bonnie in a different dimension and found Kai one of the series' best antagonists), S4, S5, S7, S8.

The top three are the same for me. S2 was the most consistently great, followed by S1 because about two thirds were good to great. With S3 a close third. Here, I thought the first half or maybe 2/3 in the beginning were stronger and it faltered somewhat at the end.

Now it gets complicated. :) I do enjoy enough about S4 with the introduction of hunters, the ongoing presence of Klaus and Rebekah (at that point, they were just dear to me, I can`t help it) and episodes overall, that it is my number 4. The scene where Rebekah has them compelled in the school and has them playing "truth or dare" so she "dares" Elena to tell the truth about Stefan/Damon and a disbelieving Caroline just looks up and goes "seriously?" That is one of my standout scenes of the entire Series. Probably weird. But I love it.

Then definitely S6 because of Kai and Bamon in the prison world.

Then S5. The final episode by itself would rate much higher but the freaking Traveller choir and basically ruining Katherine were a drag on my enjoyment.

Then S8. (So far). Yes, the Sirens and Cade were stupid but it`s still ahead of S7 because it`s shorter. I`m limbo-ing under the lowest bar here, I know.

Then S7. The heretics. Horrible Mommy Salvatore. Rayna, the super huntress. The Vault of nonsense. What the hell were these storylines? Could not stand it.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Aeryn13

miss-vanilla · March 6, 2017

Season 7 was extremely hard work for me and the worst season easily. Just so many things about it didn't work or contradicted canon or worse unraveled character development.

Lily was the epitome of failure. The chasm between what they showed us about her and how we were meant to view her by the time she died was impossible to cross. It was clear to me that narratively speaking we were meant to sympathise with her when she died but there wasn't enough there for it to feel earned IMO. This was such a shame considering she was the mother of the lead males of the show and therefore hugely important, but aside from that scene in Damon's hellscape episode her appearance has had minimal impact going forwards. With all these people coming back from Hell, i'm surprised that she hasn't made an appearance yet, not that i'm asking show.

Season 3 part 2 is far more disappointing on rewatch than I remembered. The first half seamlessly followed on with the fast pace of the previous seasons complete with the tight storytelling and then bam! it fizzled out rather quickly and the rot set in. Stefans' arc failed to make sense, the introduction of TO disrupted the momentum and shifted the focus from Stefan/Damon/Elena and the town and things began to make less and less sense. Klaus started to draw ponies and cry alot, Esther made no sense and the mythology surrounding the Gilbert ring is in some ways worse than the Siren mythology. I think I just had more tolerance back then for rubbish writing because it was still fairly new. On balance (nostalgia aside) I think season 6 was better if you ignore the twin merge weirdness and Alaric so therefore:

S2, S1, S6, S3=S4, S5, S8, S7.

Edited March 6, 2017 by miss-vanilla

Katherine · March 7, 2017

I feel like I need to do a rewatch to figure out my favorite seasons, but off the top of my head I would say:

S1, S2, S3, S6, S4, S8, S7, S5.

Seasons 1 and 2 are really close for me. I think S2 was written better overall, and it had some great moments and twists, but I have a soft spot for season 1. It's the one that sucked me in; it had the first Defan flashbacks, as well as (IMO) the best season finale.

I'm also torn between seasons 3 and 6. I think the writing quality was better in S3, and I was much more invested back then, but S6 had some really great Bamon moments, as well as my favorite brothers scene ever (the reunion hug). On the downside, S6 had Elena's whole Damon-amnesia thing, which got old fast. And I really disliked when Damon decided to take the cure to be with Elena.

As for S4, I remember it as the season where TVD began to disappoint me on a consistent basis, starting with how Elena's transition to vampire was handled, followed by the sire bond, followed by her turning her humanity off. There were some good moments in there, but not enough to make me want to rewatch.

I wasn't expecting to rank S5 last, but it's the season where I got closest to quitting. I lost the desire to watch the new episodes right away. Delena as a couple turned out to be kind of a trainwreck, which was a big disappointment for me because I had really shipped them before. And worst of all, I found Elena intolerable. I think, for the most part, my enjoyment of this show coincides with how likeable I find Elena. S5 was an all-time low.

I know a lot of people figured the show would tank after Nina left, but I actually had high hopes. I was so over the Elena character that I was really looking forward to more emphasis on other pairings, especially the non-romantic ones. I can't believe how badly the writers wasted that potential. It was like they were trying so hard to hold on to Elena (and Delena) fans that they couldn't ever fully embrace the show without Elena. They couldn't let Damon do anything that might resemble moving on from her, they had to keep bringing her name up, and they had to keep putting her in danger. I understand that Elena was an integral part of the other characters' lives and it wouldn't have been realistic for them to just forget about her, but at the same time, the show must go on. The writers didn't do anyone any favors by having so much of the show (and Damon's motivations, in particular) revolve around Elena. It just drew more attention to the fact that she was gone.

IMO, the writers really messed up what could have been an interesting new direction for the show. Obviously they were bound to lose a lot of fans with the departure of Nina, but that didn't mean that the quality of the show necessarily had to drop (not that it had been great the past couple of seasons anyway). And the fans who were firmly against watching after Nina left probably weren't drawn back in by the constant Elena shoutouts. It was like the writers were pandering to an audience that was (in large part) no longer watching anyway, so what was the point? Instead, they could have tried to right some of the wrongs that had plagued the last few seasons and make the show more respectable again. If they didn't want it to look like they were replacing Elena, they could have left Damon single but instead placed more meaningful emphasis on the growth of his other, non-romantic relationships, which (IMO) had often taken a backset to his relationship with Elena.

In S7, a big part of Damon's story was his decision to abandon Bonnie and Stefan in favor of desiccating with Elena, and there wasn't a particularly satisfying resolution to this; yes, Damon apologized, but I feel like it was a blow that the Bamon friendship never recovered from. Instead, Bonnie ended up in a rushed romance with Enzo, which a lot of fans couldn't get invested in, since there was barely any screentime devoted to its build-up. I'll just never understand why the writers made the decisions they did for the final two seasons. It was like they were just going through the motions, waiting to be cancelled. So much lost potential :(

Regarding the above conversation about the female characters' personalities, I've been watching these characters for 8 seasons and I honestly have no idea who's more introverted vs. extroverted, logical vs. emotional, etc. I agree that Bonnie has been consistently written as the most self-sacrificing and the one who cares most about the greater good and the lives of those beyond her immediate friends circle. Beyond that, I don't know much about Bonnie's personality. I can see the argument for Caroline being the most logical; we also know that she tends to be very organized and sometimes controlling. I can also see Elena as being the most emotional, but I'm not sure how I would define her beyond that. I find it interesting that this is such a hard question to answer. It shows either that the writers struggle to write well-defined female characters, or that they're brilliant at writing complex, layered, multifaceted characters. Since the show is almost over and I'm really going to miss it, let's go with the latter :P

Edited March 7, 2017 by Katherine

Iknewyoucoulddoit · March 7, 2017

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but I'm not sure how I would define her beyond that. I find it interesting that this is such a hard question to answer. It shows either that the writers struggle to write well-defined female characters, or that they're brilliant at writing complex, layered, multifaceted characters. Since the show is almost over and I'm really going to miss it, let's go with the latter :P

Ha! You're more generous than I am ;)

I love seeing the relative love for S6! It obviously had some issues, but it did give us some of my very favorite Bamon and even Stefan/Damon moments ever, and Kai was just so much fun to watch.

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I feel like I need to do a rewatch

Would anyone be interested in doing at least a partial one? We could each pick some favorite episodes to rewatch and chat about them as a group...? I've been rewacthing anyway, but it would be more fun to do it with you all!

KatWay · March 7, 2017

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And worst of all, I found Elena intolerable. I think, for the most part, my enjoyment of this show coincides with how likeable I find Elena. S5 was an all-time low.

S5 Elena was just the worst. I'll never forget that speech she made to Stefan where she basically asked him to be okay after going through hell, essentially, so she wouldn't have to feel guilty about all the steamy sex she'd had with his brother. Which she said, verbatim. I'm sure he appreciated those kind words and concern for his wellbeing. Or also how she whined about how inconvenient it was for Damon to keep killing innocent people because it again made her feel guilty about all the hate sex they were having. Literally everything was about her and if it wasn't, she made it about her. I already thought she was annoying in S4 but S5 took the cake. Vampire Elena sucked.

TigerLynx · March 8, 2017

Seasons 1 and 2 are easily my favorites. Season 3 started out okay, and then devolved horribly.

Seasons 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 had some episodes that I liked, but overall they either failed completely, or never came close to being as great as Seasons 1 and 2 were.

I don't know why I stayed watching. At first, I kept expecting the show to return to its former glory, and then I just wanted to see how it all would end.

I never would have had Damon fall in love with Elena. I would have had Katherine remain the love of Damon's life with his love turning to hate once he realized how much Katherine played him. Then I would have had all of Damon's love and devotion going to Stefan, Damon wanting to save Elena because Stefan loved her, and all the other characters worried about how far Damon would go to save the people he cared about (with Alaric, Liz, Carol, Jeremy, Bonnie, Caroline and Jenna all being on the list for various reasons). It would have given a different twist to Damon's impulsiveness, obsession, and killing. Bonus points if they had Stefan tell Elena, "Damon was easier to handle when I thought he hated me."

I never would have had Katherine being in love with Stefan. I liked the SL much better when it seemed Katherine was toying with both Damon and Stefan for her own fun, and once she achieved her goal (of making Klaus, Elijah, etc. believe she was dead) abandoning Damon and Stefan, and not giving them a second thought. One of the best scenes ever was – Katherine, "Better you die than I."

I think the writers made a mistake by killing off everyone's entire families. What once seemed tragic became more of – I wonder how long this relative will survive, what really stupid SL will lead to the characters death, or how dumb will the writers make this person before they kill them?

Lady Calypso · March 8, 2017

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I never would have had Katherine being in love with Stefan. I liked the SL much better when it seemed Katherine was toying with both Damon and Stefan for her own fun, and once she achieved her goal (of making Klaus, Elijah, etc. believe she was dead) abandoning Damon and Stefan, and not giving them a second thought. One of the best scenes ever was – Katherine, "Better you die than I."

Yep, pretty much this. A big reason in me stopping in season six was the complete destruction of Katherine's character (not to mention the introduction of the stupid Travelers). She should have never been that in love with Stefan. It should not have become her entire focus of season 5. I would have been perfectly fine with Katherine being more interested in Stefan because she had to compel him and he didn't have true feelings for her. She did love her games, after all. Season 5 was truly just not a good, watchable experience for me. Plus, the finale was really poorly done. Stefan's death had a two second mourning, and then it became all about Damon and Elena. Stefan's actual death should have had more resonance, but they treated it as if he was just some minor character.

Also, I hated the travelers so much. I now am going to actually watch season 6 because I do hear it was vastly better than season 5. I watched quite a few clips of season 6 and wish I tuned in now.

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I never would have had Damon fall in love with Elena. I would have had Katherine remain the love of Damon's life with his love turning to hate once he realized how much Katherine played him. Then I would have had all of Damon's love and devotion going to Stefan, Damon wanting to save Elena because Stefan loved her, and all the other characters worried about how far Damon would go to save the people he cared about (with Alaric, Liz, Carol, Jeremy, Bonnie, Caroline and Jenna all being on the list for various reasons). It would have given a different twist to Damon's impulsiveness, obsession, and killing. Bonus points if they had Stefan tell Elena, "Damon was easier to handle when I thought he hated me."

That would have certainly been interesting. I honestly was fine with Damon falling in love with Elena; what I wasn't fine with was this whole thing about them being soulmates and Damon still being obsessed with Elena now, despite her being in her Sleeping Beauty slumber far longer than him knowing her. Damon got over Katherine way too quickly, especially after knowing that he was obsessed with her for 145 years. But it seemed like he took it to a whole other level with Elena. His purpose for the last three seasons have pretty much been about her, which makes it very difficult to enjoy Damon as a character. Just like Elena's obsession with Damon became a problem in terms of her likability.

20 hours ago, KatWay said:

S5 Elena was just the worst. I'll never forget that speech she made to Stefan where she basically asked him to be okay after going through hell, essentially, so she wouldn't have to feel guilty about all the steamy sex she'd had with his brother. Which she said, verbatim. I'm sure he appreciated those kind words and concern for his wellbeing. Or also how she whined about how inconvenient it was for Damon to keep killing innocent people because it again made her feel guilty about all the hate sex they were having. Literally everything was about her and if it wasn't, she made it about her. I already thought she was annoying in S4 but S5 took the cake. Vampire Elena sucked.

Yep, pretty much. S5 Elena was a pretty despicable person. They really amped up the Delena in season 5, as well. Then that awful attempt at resurrecting the love triangle for an episode when Stefan lost his memories? Elena not giving two shits about Stefan being dead, and being more concerned with committing suicide with Damon so they could be in it together, instead of caring that her brother might lose his sister for good if it didn't work? I don't really remember all of season 5 because I've blocked it out, but those two moments I remember very well.

Seasons 1 and 2 are pretty closely tied for me. Season 1 had some really strong character moments for Stefan and for Elena. I enjoyed Jeremy the best in season 1, but I think it helped that he had a love interest who I really liked (I never did get on board with Jeremy/Bonnie). Alaric was a joy to watch as well, as grumpy as he was. And we got some genuine twists and turns that worked out so well. Plus, Kevin Williamson was strongly attached to that season before he left in season 2. But season 2 was great as well; we got Vamp Caroline and she was pretty badass throughout the entire season. We had more mythology of vampires and werewolves. We had Elijah, who set the stakes high for the Original vampires (something that was sorely lacking halfway through season 3 for me). The love triangle was also at its best in season 2, handled just right where it felt forced. Plus, Katherine was pretty great, and I enjoyed the last half of Klaus. He was at his scariest because he never appeared until the last few episodes, and his character was first introduced on screen in Alaric's body.

Season 3 had them ruining Stefan in favour of setting up Damon and Elena. I think the moment they had Stefan almost crash the car with Elena in it on the bridge where her parents died was the worst writing decision they could have made. I don't get why they did it, besides to prop up Damon/Elena somehow. There was also potential in Jeremy's medium powers, but they dropped that pretty quickly. Season 3 could have ended so much better than they did, but the introduction of the Mikaelson family was not handled well because of the emphasis on them and not the main characters.

Season 4 was the season of wasted potential. Plus, it was predictable as soon as Jeremy died that he'd be back, Elena would switch on her humanity, and everything would be ok. They never even had Elena do anything that unforgiveable. Sure, she snapped a few necks and drank some blood and then made snarky comments. But...that's pretty much it. Plus, the introduction of the damn Cursed Cure, the plot device that would never die. Plus, even though we've seen vampires with flipped humanity switches, Elena was just devoid of all emotion. Everyone else usually has some sort of emotions, but Elena was a robot. It was an interesting acting choice from Nina and from Julie Plec, I assume.

From what I've seen of season six, I might actually enjoy most of it. Elena not liking Damon for a few episodes could be fun. Kai seems like a great villain, and Jo seems like a cool character as well.

From the little I've seen of season 7, I think it's better to only watch the clips. Same with season 8. I'm still debating whether to just watch the entire finale or just watch clips. For fun, I might just tune in on Friday.

ByTor · March 8, 2017

On 3/4/2017 at 8:53 AM, Iknewyoucoulddoit said:

Klaus isn't compelling or intriguing to me, just repulsive.

I like Klaus...replace Klaus with Rebekah. though, and I'm there. I HATED her and never ever saw the appeal, even on TO.

Edited March 8, 2017 by ByTor

TigerLynx · March 9, 2017

12 hours ago, doram said:

::Standing Ovation::

This. is. the. singular. biggest. mistake. this. show. made. By having Damon literally do a 180 from Katherine to Elena in the same fricking episode - and making it stick and not just be a case of transference - they basically erased everything about season 1 Damon, and rebuilt his character from scratch. Season 1! Damon was cool. He was a trickster type, unpredictable villain. The cardboard-copied Bad Boy archetype that they supplanted him with was what dragged this show into the mud.

It would have been so much more compelling, so much smarter if Katherine's "love" for Stefan had just been one big con, one big distraction to her true endgame. While these bunch of high-school kids and arrested-developmentally vamps like Damon believe that LOVE is her motivation, this 500-year-old survivor is playing with completely different stakes.

Completely agree with both of you guys.

All of this, but especially the bolded part.

I think the writers completely misread the room when it came to Damon. Season One Damon was great because he was an intelligent person with a plan. All of Damon's shenanigans with Stefan were just a distraction to his real goal (getting Katherine out of the tomb), and Stefan knew it. The scenes of Damon/Stefan playing darts and football, with Stefan trying to get Damon to tell him the truth, and Damon telling Stefan Katherine was alive were excellent. For whatever reason, the writers decided people wanted Damon to be a bad boy wooby, and that was a horrible mistake and lousy direction to take the character in.

memememe76 · March 11, 2017

I can bitch about a show with the best of them, but when a series is done, I generally look back and focus on why I watched the show and enjoyed it. Its legacy is probably saving the CW from extinction, giving the teen vampire genre a bit of respectability after the Twilight series, and I liked the world building that you didn't see in teen shows of the past. It lost its way but I kept at it. I generally like everyone in the cast and crew and writers (well, I truly did detest Enzo), and I look forward to see how they continue to pursue their craft.

Aeryn13 · March 11, 2017

I said it over in the episode thread but after the Finale ended and with HOW they did it and how the focus was displayed, I can now not unsee that the entire show was the movie Titanic. Stefan is Jack and Damon is Rose and the show itself depicts their love story while the final scene depicts their happy reunion after death,

I realize it`s far from a perfect analogy. The majority of the show focused on the romantic ships of the triangle Stelena/Delena and then Steroline and Bonenzo but IMO the Finale pretty much retconned this away and say "fooled you, Defan was the love story after all", it weighs more to me.

KatWay · March 11, 2017

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IMO the Finale pretty much retconned this away and say "fooled you, Defan was the love story after all", it weighs more to me.

and to me that's just a retcon. The show has always been all about romance, the only reason they pushed Defan so much in the finale is that there would've been riots if they'd just sacrificed Stefan on the altar of Delena without any compensation. But it's still a shitty ending for that character and since I was still invested in him I hated the ending he got. No human life, no married life for you Stefan but I guess you get to be dead and happy in afterlife.

To me the finale was just full of unearned emotional manipulation, to make it look epic. Suddenly family is the theme of the show? Please, this show has killed of a bazillion family members for shock value and nobody cared.

Edited March 11, 2017 by KatWay

betweenthebanter · March 11, 2017

The Defan scene at the end got to me, because I thought it was beautiful and back when I was at my most in love with the show their brother dynamic was the relationship I cared the most about. That being said, the writers are giving themselves way too much credit if their intention was to show that the main focus of this show was family. I don't remember what season or moment it was, but my love for Defan lessened when I realized that while Stefan loves Damon more than anybody, Damon would always love Elena more. It just made me sad for Stefan that the writers put him in this place that he was never able to grow out of and the writers never made it mutual on Damon's side (even though I fully believe that Damon did love Stefan a lot).

Did you guys watch the tvd retrospective before the finale aired. Overall, I liked the retrospective more than I did the first part of the finale, but there were some parts of it that had me rolling my eyes. For example, when Nina talked about the Bonnie/Caroline/Elena friendship and she said something like, "in a way they are each other's epic loves." This was a nice quote and I wish it were true, but that is giving the show way to much credit when looking at how their friendship was actually depicted. They had some great friendship moments, but in general their relationship with the guys was always prioritized over their friendship. Damon/Elena, Klaus/Claroline, Bonnie/Damon friendship are all examples of the writers having the girls accept guys that treated their best friend horribly.

Edited March 11, 2017 by betweenthebanter

Aeryn13 · March 11, 2017

Quote

but my love for Defan lessened when I realized that while Stefan loves Damon more than anybody, Damon would always love Elena more. It just made me sad for Stefan that the writers put him in this place that he was never able to grow out of and the writers never made it mutual on Damon's side (even though I fully believe that Damon did love Stefan a lot).

Ironically. The final moments of the episode made it seem like: okay, Damon got together with Elena but frankly, he couldn`t care less anymore because he is now focused on Stefan. He only looked happy again after being reunited with Stefan.

Totally agree that for the other 170 episodes that wasn`t the case, Stefan prioritized Damon and Damon his romantic love. But once Stefan dies, apparently Damon switches gears?

Katherine · March 11, 2017

3 hours ago, betweenthebanter said:

The Defan scene at the end got to me, because I thought it was beautiful and back when I was at my most in love with the show their brother dynamic was the relationship I cared the most about. That being said, the writers are giving themselves way too much credit if their intention was to show that the main focus of this show was family. I don't remember what season or moment it was, but my love for Defan lessened when I realized that while Stefan loves Damon more than anybody, Damon would always love Elena more. It just made me sad for Stefan that the writers put him in this place that he was never able to grow out of and the writers never made it mutual on Damon's side (even though I fully believe that Damon did love Stefan a lot).

This has always been my biggest problem with the show. I spent seasons hoping they were doing this intentionally to build up to a series finale where Damon finally prioritizes Stefan over everyone else (including Elena). I really wanted the series to end with Damon sacrificing himself for Stefan's happiness or with the brothers dying (or maybe just leaving Mystic Falls) together.

On paper, I really don't like how the finale went down. It seems wrong that after Stefan consistently put Damon first his entire life, he's still the one who ends up sacrificing so that Damon can get a happy ending. But for some reason, the way the finale played out onscreen really worked for me. It hit enough of the right beats for me to feel satisfied as a Defan fan, and it pulled an emotional reaction from me that I wasn't really expecting. I think a lot of it comes down to the scene where Damon tried to make the sacrifice and finally acknowledged that he had been a shitty big brother and apologized. If it wasn't for that, I would be a lot angrier about Delena as endgame.

I had been expecting Stefan to give the cure to Damon so that Damon could live happily ever after with Elena. What I feared was that Damon would accept that sacrifice. Thankfully he didn't; Stefan forced it on him and Damon's claim that a happy ending with Elena would "mean a lot less without [Stefan]" turned out to be true. That, coupled with the final scene of the entire series featuring a hug between the brothers, was enough to leave me satisfied. Maybe I'm easily emotionally manipulated or maybe I just lowered my expectations enough these past few seasons, but I feel very content with the way the show ended.

I agree that the writers' claims that the whole series was about family rings false. There has always been way more focus on the teen romance angle, which IMO has been really disappointing (though not surprising). But I'm glad the series finale, at least, turned out to be about family. Is it a retcon? Sure. But it's a retcon that I'm pleasantly surprised by and thrilled to accept.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Katherine

TigerLynx · March 11, 2017

I wish Damon had stayed with Stefan under the pretext that Stefan wouldn't be able to handle sending Katherine to hell on his own. Damon tells Stefan they are going to do what they should have done back in 1864. Protect the town, save everyone else's lives, send Katherine to hell, and die together. Bonnie wakes up Elena, Elena has her human life and is happy.

I had a horrible thought. I have no idea what is going to happen on The Originals, if Caroline will be visiting, if this is the last season of The Originals, etc. If it is, who might they kill off on that show, and could poor Stefan end up in eternal triangles with Damon/Elena and Klaus/Caroline, or Rebecca/Valerie/Katherine?

betweenthebanter · March 12, 2017

3 hours ago, Katherine said:

This has always been my biggest problem with the show. I spent seasons hoping they were doing this intentionally to build up to a series finale where Damon finally prioritizes Stefan over everyone else (including Elena). I really wanted the series to end with Damon sacrificing himself for Stefan's happiness or with the brothers dying (or maybe just leaving Mystic Falls) together.

On paper, I really don't like how the finale went down. It seems wrong that after Stefan consistently put Damon first his entire life, he's still the one who ends up sacrificing so that Damon can get a happy ending. But for some reason, the way the finale played out onscreen really worked for me. It hit enough of the right beats for me to feel satisfied as a Defan fan, and it pulled an emotional reaction from me that I wasn't really expecting. I think a lot of it comes down to the scene where Damon tried to make the sacrifice and finally acknowledged that he had been a shitty big brother and apologized. If it wasn't for that, I would be a lot angrier about Delena as endgame.

I really did love the moment where Damon tried to compell Stefan to leave. On paper, I loved that Stefan was smart enough to have vervain in his system, once he became human. I thought it was a nice callback to when vervain was utilized a lot on the show. How it played out onscreen though felt like a cop-out to me. It was great that Damon was willing to do that for Stefan, but I can't give the writers credit because they were never going to let him do it. It felt like they tried to trick the audience into being shocked and amazed by the predictable ending, through pretending for a second that that wasn't where it was going to go, and that annoyed me.

For me, the difference between killing Damon or Stefan is that killing Stefan represents what this show has mostly been about (the romance), while killing Damon represents what I wish this show could have been (and also what I think the writers are trying to convince us that it is). Damon's death would have been far more meaningful, for everyone of the characters except Caroline and Matt (whom I don't think has a preference either way). If Damon died, there wouldn't have been any typical happy ending for the ships, which is both why it would never happen on this show and why I think things would have been better if it did. Caroline/Stefan would have to deal with him growing older and her staying young. Stefan/Elena's ending would have been very bittersweet. They were both human and would grow old, like they probably wanted to do together back in the day, but the person that they most want to be there is gone. Bonnie would have brought one best friend back, but lost the other. Stefan would have to deal with losing the person that he loves most and Elena dealing with grieving Damon, but not running away from her grief this time and learning to eventually be able to accomplish her dreams. and be happy would have been great.

I know that that isn't this show, but I wish it was. I think that the Defan hug at the end was perfect, but things like them using Stefan to make sure that Damon/Elena got their grow old together ending, plus them foreshadowing Klaus/Caroline not even 5 minutes after she was grieving Stefan (even though I know it was years in the timeline) are just some of the reasons why the finale was overall mediocre to me.

On the positive side, I do love that Caroline was the the last vampire on tvd. Also, even though I would have changed elements of the storyline (maybe Damon having become human episodes ago and him doing for Stefan what Stefan did for him this episode), I think I'm satisfied that the three mains all ended up human and being in their afterlife at the end.

Katherine · March 12, 2017

2 hours ago, betweenthebanter said:

I really did love the moment where Damon tried to compell Stefan to leave. On paper, I loved that Stefan was smart enough to have vervain in his system, once he became human. I thought it was a nice callback to when vervain was utilized a lot on the show. How it played out onscreen though felt like a cop-out to me. It was great that Damon was willing to do that for Stefan, but I can't give the writers credit because they were never going to let him do it. It felt like they tried to trick the audience into being shocked and amazed by the predictable ending, through pretending for a second that that wasn't where it was going to go, and that annoyed me.

For me, the difference between killing Damon or Stefan is that killing Stefan represents what this show has mostly been about (the romance), while killing Damon represents what I wish this show could have been (and also what I think the writers are trying to convince us that it is). Damon's death would have been far more meaningful, for everyone of the characters except Caroline and Matt (whom I don't think has a preference either way). If Damon died, there wouldn't have been any typical happy ending for the ships, which is both why it would never happen on this show and why I think things would have been better if it did. Caroline/Stefan would have to deal with him growing older and her staying young. Stefan/Elena's ending would have been very bittersweet. They were both human and would grow old, like they probably wanted to do together back in the day, but the person that they most want to be there is gone. Bonnie would have brought one best friend back, but lost the other. Stefan would have to deal with losing the person that he loves most and Elena dealing with grieving Damon, but not running away from her grief this time and learning to eventually be able to accomplish her dreams. and be happy would have been great.

I know that that isn't this show, but I wish it was. I think that the Defan hug at the end was perfect, but things like them using Stefan to make sure that Damon/Elena got their grow old together ending, plus them foreshadowing Klaus/Caroline not even 5 minutes after she was grieving Stefan (even though I know it was years in the timeline) are just some of the reasons why the finale was overall mediocre to me.

On the positive side, I do love that Caroline was the the last vampire on tvd. Also, even though I would have changed elements of the storyline (maybe Damon having become human episodes ago and him doing for Stefan what Stefan did for him this episode), I think I'm satisfied that the three mains all ended up human and being in their afterlife at the end.

I totally agree with your whole post, and I especially love the bolded part. You're right--killing Stefan meant that the romance essentially won out over the family aspect, whereas killing Damon would have meant the opposite. Not everyone will agree with that view, but I feel like I see the brothers' relationship very similarly to how you see it. And for those reasons, if given the chance to change the ending to one where Damon died instead of Stefan, I would definitely take it. But somehow thanks to the Defan moments we did get, I still feel happy with the finale. Did it do complete justice to the story we've been told for the past 8 seasons? No. Did it fulfill the potential of the brotherly dynamic that was set up in season 1? No. But did it leave me with all the feelings I hope to get from a series finale? Amazingly, yes. I knew going into the finale that my enjoyment would depend pretty much entirely on how the brothers' relationship with each other played out. Somehow I walked away feeling satisfied, even though on paper it really shouldn't have worked for me.

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