The Jim Butcher Thread: Codex Alera, The Dresden Files, and The Cinder Spires

[Mars477]

Not sure if there are many Butcher fans around, but "Skin Games" (book 15 of The Dresden Files) comes out in a week and I'm freaking hyped.

 

Karrin Murphy is the best.  Tiny... but fierce!

[OakGoblinFly]

<Raises hand>

 

I love Jim Butcher - I must have read the Dresden books several times and I have had May 27th and Skin Games pre-ordered for months now.

 

I am curious about The Cinder Spires series - I adore steam punk and Butcher novels, so I am hoping for good things.

 

 

I met Jim Butcher at FaerieCon East last November and he talked about his books, especially the Dresden books.  He spoke a little of The Cinder Spires series saying he wanted to call it a steam opera but he didn't want to be the only book on the shelf, so he stuck with steam punk - he described the books a bit and they sound very entertaining.

 

Also, he said that he would love Tom Hiddleston and/or Michael Fassbender to play one of his characters (he doesn't care which) if he ever decided to bring any of his books to film (and don't mention the Dresden Files series to him, he wasn't too happy about that).

[Eegah]

I read Codex Alera first, and was blown away by it. The sheer amount of imagination, creativity, and sheer fun packed into those books is like nothing else I've seen over a similar length. And then I found out it was created on a bet that he couldn't make a good story out of two bad ideas, and it got even better.

 

In comparison, I've found The Dresden Files a bit of a letdown. Butcher still has a great imagination, but in the entries I've read (I'm currently up to number 7) he's clearly a less experienced writer, and it took him a while to work up the kind of confidence needed to write something like Alera. In fact, Harry resurrecting Sue the Tyrannosaur is the moment where he really seemed to hit that level for the first time, so I'm quite interested to see if he can keep it up.

 

There's also one other thing that has me preferring Alera at the moment: I'm not sure exactly how much forward planning he did on it, but the fact that the story finishes definitively after six books makes me think he at least had the broad strokes of the whole thing mapped out ahead of time. Dresden, on the other hand, feels much more like he's just pulling anything he can off the top of his head, and is just riding the wave as long as the ideas keep coming. And that can work for a while, but it's the same reason I've never gotten into comic books: after a while, I just want closure on these characters, and seeing them go through hell over and over without any hope of it ever stopping just gets depressing and hard to read.

[Mars477]

While Codex Alera does have the benefit of being more tightly plotted (since it is only 6 books long instead of 25-ish) it is disappointing IMO in terms of characters, particularly female characters.  Codex Alera's female characters either lack agency (Kitai, who begins the series as Tavi's Magical Elf UrST object and ends the series as Tavi's Magical Elf Girlfriend, having managed to develop something of a personality over 6 books but never much of a character or personal accomplishments), self sufficiency (Amara, who spends the entire series chained to Bernard's side and for the most part can't act, read hit somebody with a sword, without painfully crippling herself), or the ability to remain conscious for extended periods of time (Isana, whose standard coded female powers, empathy and healing/support, inherently make her faint a LOT and relegate her to the rear echelon).

 

This is a universe where living human weapon Lady Placida Aria and second-greatest swordfighter in Alera Phrygiar Navaris exist, but they're relegated to being a minor supporting character and a one-book psychopathic murderess of a villain respectively.

 

While The Dresden Files is very male dominated, including almost bookly literal male gaze, I feel like for the most part the female characters, from Murphy (who is the best) to minor ones like Charity and Justine to even the supernatural(ly attractive, which Harry's male gaze lavishes uncomfortable detail on) female powers like Mab or Lara have that kind inner life where they have their own goals and interests.  These goals may involve a man, but that is not their entirety. Charity literally was that damsel in distress that the knight and shining armor must slay a dragon to save, and the entirety of her character is wrapped up in protecting her family, but the way she supports her husband the knight (forging and maintaining his armor and sparring with him, with swords) or protects her family (by going at fae hitmen with a nail gun) is kind of awesome.

[Crim]

Dresden, on the other hand, feels much more like he's just pulling anything he can off the top of his head, and is just riding the wave as long as the ideas keep coming.

This is where I am with the series too. I stopped reading after Changes (Novel 12) - better said, when I saw the synopsis for the next one and I just thought "Actually, I'm out."

 

Mars477, while the female characters in Dresden are ok and the male gaze only sometimes gets to ludicrous levels (Mab? Red Court vampires? Seriously, Harry?), there is something constantly patronizing about Harry's inner voice that slowly wore me down. I get that Butcher noted down "old-school chevalier-type" at the top of his character sheet, but it got so repetitive, especially as Harry himself mentions it to himself it in every book. And Murphy is "tiny but fierce", and this also gets mentioned ad nauseam in every book. Doesn't Harry get over this at some point? "Oh wow, I've known you for years, but the first thought in my head when I see you in the morning is how tiny-but-fierce you are and how other people would be surprised! I mean you are a police officer, so that could sorta give them a clue, but... look how tiny and cute you are! Because most people think that other people's personalities are strictly related to their size. Also, look how tall I am!"

[Mars477]

Crim, "Tiny but fierce" actually only appears in one book, and it's something that Sanya says, never Harry.  And while Butcher has his "tag" descriptors for characters (Murphy as "somebody's cute aunt", Marcone's green eyes, or stupid sexy Thomas) it's still preferable to long running series where somebody might be described once in one book and then never again (David Weber, you have twenty fucking books over three or four shared universe series and I still have no clue what half your characters look like!).  For what it's worth, Skin Games looks to be a break from the tag system (there is reference to Murphy's "spring muscle body", and hair grown out from the buzz cut she had it in before, both of which are new phrases).

 

Supernatural hotness (Mab, the Fae, Whamps) is a big thing in the series, but it's also a big thing in the source mythos.  Fae are supernaturally hot, and you'd expect succubi/incubi to be as well.  Hell, supernatural hotness (comma, the narrator's commentary of) is practically prudish in Butcher's writing, compared to any number of female written urban fantasy.  It's a staple of the genre.

[GaT]

 

Dresden, on the other hand, feels much more like he's just pulling anything he can off the top of his head, and is just riding the wave as long as the ideas keep coming.

I've read the series except for Skin Game (waiting for a 20% cpn) & I agree with you. It does feel like he's winging the story. I was kind of disappointed with Changes, because the changes were so great, it seemed like he was starting a new series. I want to read about Harry Dresden, wizard detective, not a series about the Summer/Winter queens et al & how they control Harry.

[OakGoblinFly]

In comparison, I've found The Dresden Files a bit of a letdown. Butcher still has a great imagination, but in the entries I've read (I'm currently up to number 7) he's clearly a less experienced writer, and it took him a while to work up the kind of confidence needed to write something like Alera. In fact, Harry resurrecting Sue the Tyrannosaur is the moment where he really seemed to hit that level for the first time, so I'm quite interested to see if he can keep it up.

 

 

It is interesting to note that Butcher explained at an author's panel that the first few Dresden books were written during college/for college assignments and remain pretty unchanged (just expanded).

[AngelKitty]

I kind of fell in love with Harry in the TV series so when it was over I had to read the books and my love has not diminished.  The books are mostly fun and sometimes sad and I've enjoyed reading them.  I just started Skin Games.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Love the Dresden Files!

 

Got done reading Skin Game recently and have been re reading it. Its not perfect but it's still a pretty good read. 

[romantic idiot]

WARNING - VERY SPOILERY POST.

Dresden, on the other hand, feels much more like he's just pulling anything he can off the top of his head, and is just riding the wave as long as the ideas keep coming. And that can work for a while, but it's the same reason I've never gotten into comic books: after a while, I just want closure on these characters, and seeing them go through hell over and over without any hope of it ever stopping just gets depressing and hard to read.

Butcher does have an end point in mind - if that helps. HIs apocalyptic trilogy to end the series - will start from the 20th book. I live in fear of his ill health and pray for his continued good health. For me, each one of the Dresden Files has been better than the previous one, though agreed, before Changes, Sue was my favourite ending. And it still may be though Changes is now the biggest. Based on what Butcher has said, I get the feeling that he does have arcs planned out for his characters and he knows where things are going but the individual books may not be plotted out completely yet. Either way, he put up his process on his blog? live journal? once? And I cannot believe that person flies by the seat of his pants much. 

 

While Codex Alera does have the benefit of being more tightly plotted (since it is only 6 books long instead of 25-ish) it is disappointing IMO in terms of characters, particularly female characters.  Codex Alera's female characters either lack agency (Kitai, who begins the series as Tavi's Magical Elf UrST object and ends the series as Tavi's Magical Elf Girlfriend, having managed to develop something of a personality over 6 books but never much of a character or personal accomplishments), self sufficiency (Amara, who spends the entire series chained to Bernard's side and for the most part can't act, read hit somebody with a sword, without painfully crippling herself), or the ability to remain conscious for extended periods of time (Isana, whose standard coded female powers, empathy and healing/support, inherently make her faint a LOT and relegate her to the rear echelon).

 

This is a universe where living human weapon Lady Placida Aria and second-greatest swordfighter in Alera Phrygiar Navaris exist, but they're relegated to being a minor supporting character and a one-book psychopathic murderess of a villain respectively.

To me this is a fairly radical interpretation of the text. The main protagonists of the series, for me were Tavi, Fidelias, Isana and Amara, with the rest as supporting players. They were the first introduced and we see their journeys throughout. Amara was not stuck at Bernard's side, rather, he was stuck at hers. She saw through Fidelias's plan in the beginning, she saved Tavi, got the men at the Garrison organised and led them with barely any training. In Academ's Fury she understood and engaged the Vord Queen, and if I'm not mistaken, dealt the killing blow. I think she's also the one to figure out the takers. In Cursor's Fury, she's the one who foiled Kalarus and Invidia, etc. Her journey in the series was in growing from the apprentice to the master tactician. And she kept her womanhood intact. Was she physically weak? Yes. But she also kicked a** flying, and more than made up for her physical weaknesses using her brains and her heart. 

 

Isana - her journey was different. She starts out weak in the Furies of Calderon and fearful, looking to protect Tavi. Yet, despite her fear she soldiers on. She maybe fainted during the Night of the Red Stars, but she got the warning out. Then she fought for Rari's life - which was critical at the end of the series. By the time Captain's Fury rolls around, and into Princeps Fury, she's a strong power in her own right - who got something very critical done. She made the true with The Icemen possible - and that - peace with a foreign power - was something only Tavi did. She also manipulated the Vord Queen and Invidia as a prisoner and helped in her own rescue. So I wouldn't call her someone who fainted a lot. Though by god she is feminine. And womanly. 

 

Fidelias - his story was moving from cynicism to optimism, from the greatest good for the most number, to one where he'd leave no man behind. His redemption, and the growth of belief in Tavi was one of my favourite things about the series. That's how you redeem someone. Not give them a chip which makes them want a soul, even though they can't want one. 

 

The thing to note, I'd say, is that none of them are powers. (except Isana, but it's a curse for her as well, with no metal craft to support). That's why for me, using Placida Aria and Nevaris more would have been wrong. Codex Alera is not about the superpowered being strong. It is about the use and misuse of power and ambition. It's about the no powered freak figuring out how to win the day, and doing it. Again and again. It's about the powered unthinkingly abusing their power. That's why Gaius didn't use his power much and wasn't around, too. The story was about using the power that you had, and figuring it out. Isana and Amara (and Tavi and Fidelias) are our protagonists because they are the smartest, or perhaps the wisest in the realm, not because they are the strongest. And dunno, that is a fairly strong feminist message to me. It not being about might being right, I mean. Rather compassion and thoughtfulness. 

 

Nevaris and Kitai then, I think were important figures. AT the time when Tavi comes to learn of his parentage, we see Nevaris, in some way twisted, because of her parentage, that wasn't acknowledged. We see what the love of Isana and Bernard, and perhaps his cluelessness spared Tavi. There for the grace of God went he, right? I think Nevaris was needed there, but Aldrick wouldn't have done in this regard. Then Kitai. Kitai was the person teaching him to get comfortable in his skin, because she was comfortable in her skin. And I wouldn't say she had no agency - she was the freest person there, doing what she wanted to do. She was his trusted advisor, his eyes and ears and she kept him grounded, which, IMO, is not what a magical elf would do. Did she open his eyes sometimes? Yes. But she also supported him. But IMO, that was her role in the narrative, a supporting character to Tavi's story. I don't think that robbed her of any agency in story. She saved him to pay him back, helped to get Max out and fought by his side, she helped him think through Canim plans and bested him when needed.  And she was smug and superior when doing it, which is, again, hot what I'd expect a magical elf girlfriend to be allowed to be. 

 

Also let's not forget that the main antagonist was a woman. In fact they were both women. I wouldn't say Invidia had no agency. Nor that the Vord Queen. Invidia's ambition and her acts nearly was the death of the planet. And the Vord Queen's issues weren't related to being a woman, but rather a child. Again, I'd say the women did fairly well for themselves in the series. 

I've read the series except for Skin Game (waiting for a 20% cpn) & I agree with you. It does feel like he's winging the story. I was kind of disappointed with Changes, because the changes were so great, it seemed like he was starting a new series. I want to read about Harry Dresden, wizard detective, not a series about the Summer/Winter queens et al & how they control Harry.

 

Maybe it helped me because I knew Changes were coming. His changes may not have been liked, but onee can't say they weren't warned - it provides the warning in the title that big things would happen. It was the mid point in the series he has planned. I was waiting for the book to come out for a year, and after reading Changes, (and the Mercy Thompson before that), I took a break for a couple of months from reading because I wanted to savour the taste in my mind.  Sorry I digress. The point I wanted to make is that the big changes may not be to everyone's liking - he burned everything down, after all, but as far as I can make out, one can't accuse Butcher of not having planned it. For me, I like where the series is going, from Ghost Story to Cold Front. He'd been expanding Harry's world little by little and now, they feel epic somehow yet still interesting. I also love that he doesn't keep threads dangling for long - we know Molly's fate, the sword has a new Knight (I mean, who'd have imagined, from Dead Beat? yet, it's not surprising). Michael's sad ending isn't sad after all. Harry and Murphy, maybe going towards a resolution. Gentleman Jim's thread has been picked up. Based on the authors and show runners who keep piling on questions and more questions, I love that Butcher addresses them and then starts their next story. Also, is Skin Game out already? I've been looking for it but can't find it - the latest I hear is Mar 2015, is that the paperback only? Drawing a TV analogy, he's moving more from procedurals to more serialised form of storytelling that I enjoy, especially when they are as well done as his books tend to be. 

Edited December 22, 2014 by romantic idiot

[GaT]

Also, is Skin Game out already? I've been looking for it but can't find it - the latest I hear is Mar 2015, is that the paperback only? 

The hardcover came out in May, no idea when the paperback comes out, I'm waiting for Peace Talks now.

[romantic idiot]

Yes. *is sheepish* Not sure how I got PT and SG mixed up since I loved Skin Game. Sh** happened in it.

[raven]

Hey romantic idiot, it's interesting that you feel Harry's world has expanded, I feel that it's narrowed.  Skin Game improves on this, but giving Harry almost no one to interact with other than the island, the faeries and Murphy is a mistake IMO. I miss his snarky relationship with Thomas.  As far as Harry's changes,  I wasn't happy with the introduction of Maggie - she leaves Mouse out of the action, a mistake - but at least she has been sidelined.  Still there's no mystery that Harry would burn down the world for her, it makes him predictable.  I did like the resolution (if you can call it that) of Harry's relationship with Susan, unlike what I read from most Dresden fans, I liked her and found their attraction and relationship believable.  

 

Ghost Story was easily the worst of the books for me, I almost didn't come back.  I know Jim Butcher has a set number in the series, GS felt like he was filling in a number for the total, rather than tightly plotting.  Plus I really could not stand what happened with Molly.  I enjoyed Harry as mentor (though it irritated me that Molly never really paid for what she did) and I didn't like Butcher's idea that with Harry gone, Molly's hero worship would intensify to the extent it did.  With the way her powers are centered (mind rather than brute force) to me it seemed more natural that she should be a bit more of the opposite of Harry, rather, before the events in Cold Days, she is little more than a fanboyish, female extension of Harry; model gorgeous and likes the same music and pop culture stuff he does.  I'm hoping she branches off; Butcher really hasn't done badly with female characters; he wrote Karrin Murphy after all, who is allowed to be smart, dedicated, strong and still screw up.  So we'll see.

 

I was happy to see Michael and Charity again in SG and I'm curious to see where the rest of the story goes (Butters!).  Overall The Dresden Files has been pretty enjoyable and progressed pretty well, despite my earlier complaining.  I thought Nicodemus was especially entertaining in this one, he makes a random remark about "how many can drive a chariot" and I like these reminders about how old these beings are; it gives a lot of scope to the universe.  I do want to see Harry brought a bit more back to earth though.

Edited December 24, 2014 by raven

[Yokosmom]

Unpopular opinion here, but I've never really liked Murphy.  I don't care how tiny and fierce she is, for some reason her character bores me.  She's almost too perfect.  Small, yet hot, and of course, total ninja warrior when it comes to fighting. Sigh.

 

I get tired of some of the book's plots, that often seem dragged out a bit.  Despite all of this, I love the series. Butcher seems to pull something completely off the wall off in every book.  The identity of the new sword keeper.  The foreshadowed, expected sword keeper

breaking the damn sword.

Molly's fate. The real roles of the Summer and Winter Queens. Hades. and so on and so forth. Plus Toot-Toot!

 

One of my favorite characters is Marcone, even though he is a bad, bad man.  I think that he'll eventually end up either picking up a coin (to save coma girl) or pick up a sword, but whatever happens, he's going to be a major player in the Apocalypse.

[OakGoblinFly]

The Areonaut's Windlass is schedule for release September 2015.  

[GaT]

It seems like Peace Talks is taking forever, he didn't even start writing it until November.

[romantic idiot]

Yeah. It almost makes me resentful of his other works. except that that's how I got Alera and it's good to refresh. 

 

A tiny part of me is still resentful of his other non-novel commitments because it's been so effing long!!

[Yokosmom]

Well we mustn't get too greedy.  Compared to G.R.R. Martin, he's a speed writer. Imagine if we had to wait 3-5 years for each book!

[SmithW6079]

I've read a few of the Dresden Files books, but what turned me off eventually was that in my opinion, Butcher writes "bad" women very well, but not so much "good" women, who come across as self-righteous and bitchy.

[GaT]

Anyone know what the problem with "Working for Bigfoot" is? It was supposed to be released today, but both Amazon & Barnes & Noble are showing it as temporarily out of stock, & there's only 1 review.

[romantic idiot]

I've read a few of the Dresden Files books, but what turned me off eventually was that in my opinion, Butcher writes "bad" women very well, but not so much "good" women, who come across as self-righteous and bitchy.

 

That's interesting. Apart from Charity, who dislikes Harry and shows him her dislike, I would not call any of the other 'good' women bitchy - not Molly, Murphy, Georgina or Susan. Not even -whatshername - Morgan's boss. What about their characterisation gave you that impression, if you don't mind my asking?

[GaT]

Molly's mother Charity is extremely self-righteous and bitchy, & Murphy can sure be a bitch.

 

 

FYI, if anyone is considering buying the new Dresden book 'Working for Bigfoot" do not buy the hardcover, buy an ebook. It's supposedly 3 novellas, but it's actually 3 short stories. The stories are good, but not worth $30.00 

[Mars477]

Murphy may have been a bitch in Fool Moon (although she was completely in the right, because Harry was still in stupid "I won't tell people anything to protect them, even though that's total bullshit" mode in a big way) but if anything she has been WAY too accommodating towards him in more recent books.

It's funny reading what I wrote a year ago because my attitudes towards the series have shifted pretty dramatically since then. Basically, I'm over all the Male Gaze. It's fucking immature, annoying, and a waste of time. Poor Murph got robbed. And fuck Butters with a rusty chainsaw, the faithless, pure geek wish fulfillment fuck.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Mars477

[raven]

I never minded Charity's bitchiness - for lack of a better term - towards Harry, she was that way because of the excess danger she felt Michael was in whenever he helped Harry, plus the bailing out of jail and all that.  It was Michael's decision but their family was affected, so I got her attitude, even if it was over the top and something she should have taken up with Michael. 

 

For the record, I hate that fact she hasn't told Michael that she has (had?) her own powers and now Harry is keeping that secret also.  Can't stand that Molly is now keeping secrets from her parents either "for their own good" of course.  Rather like Harry does actually, but she is really just a younger, female Harry Dresden IMO.

 

I wouldn't describe Murphy as a bitch, I felt her to be fairly complex in the beginning of the series, though I agree with Mars477 that she's now become way too accomodating.  When the kids shoot up her neighborhood, killing her neighbor and she just lets it go on Harry's say-so I was annoyed.  Yes they were being brainwashed but that was VERY uncharacterstic of her. 

 

I liked Susan as well, she was fun, tough and made mistakes and I was disappointed that JB killed her off because he felt he had run out of story for her. 

 

 

Basically, I'm over all the Male Gaze. It's fucking immature, annoying, and a waste of time.

 

Plus this.  These references pop up so often so they're like filler now.   I still find the earlier books very re-readable in a pinch, they're fun but with hints of arcs and I really enjoy JB's world overall.  I'm just disappointed with a lot of the story directions.

[GaT]

I'm just disappointed with a lot of the story directions.

I wasn't happy with Changes because in my mind, it completely changed the entire storyline. I started reading the series because Harry was a wizard detective, but after Changes, the detective part was gone.

[SmithW6079]

That's interesting. Apart from Charity, who dislikes Harry and shows him her dislike, I would not call any of the other 'good' women bitchy - not Molly, Murphy, Georgina or Susan. Not even -whatshername - Morgan's boss. What about their characterisation gave you that impression, if you don't mind my asking?

I don't recall the Georgina or Susan characters. (I couldn't remember how many of the Dresden books I read -- I thought it was only a few, but I read up to at least nine or ten in the series.) Charity is definitely bitchy, or least dislikes Harry, but in a way that's understandable, because he puts her husband in danger (as others have noted). (Of course, that could be solved by a simple explanation, but such is not the way in movies or books). I always found Murphy bitchy and overcompensating. Beyond that, I can't pinpoint why I don't think Butcher writes "bad" women better than "good" women.