lembergwatcher September 8, 2018 Share September 8, 2018 (edited) Quote The citizens of Sunnydale flee en masse and Sunnydale becomes a ghost town. Willow uses magic to get information from the police on Caleb, and Spike and Andrew leave to pursue a lead. Buffy confronts the group and demands that they make better choices, and reveals her plans for another attack, at which point the group pass a vote of no confidence in Buffy. Buffy leaves and Faith reluctantly becomes the new leader. Well now. Final season's moment of clarity. Empty Places or should we say When She Was Really and Inexcusably Bad. Or Buffy Summers' Lowest Point in the Series. Despite my own revulsion towards season 7 I like that particular ep in one way or another. It starts with the images of mass exodus from the great ol' SunnyD. People flee their hometown, fed up with the Hellmouth's antics ("I've got fucking Harbingers of Death doin' things in my backyard!" or something). We'll never know whether it was that easy to evacuate the town of more than 30 000 residents in a very short period of time (the Bronze will be jammed later in the evening), but that is not the case... Meanwhile Giles and Willow manage to obtain some paperwork from the stoned (or mind-controlled) police officer. None of them seems to be comfortable with the conversation. Quote WILLOW Good idea. My control was fading. What's up with those cops? GILESOh, same as everyone. The hellmouth is active again. Well, I always asked myself how could the Hellmouth affect everyone around in those final days of Sunnydale, but not the Scoobs themselves or the Potentials? Were they somehow immune or what? The hospital scene between Willow and her one-eyed friend is a truly heartbreaking moment of the whole season, sort of a real outcome of W/X involvement with Buffy. The Slayer seems reluctant to spend more time with those who used to be her best friends from the beginning (I cannot even describe Buffy's almost murderous glare after Willow suggested the card games). Come on, Slayer, those two are not some random people, they're not even the baby-Slayers, whose names you still can't memorize! They are Xander and Willow, your friends, who stood by you for all those years! The world won't be over if you spend a little more time with them. Xander has been maimed partly due to your "brilliant" decision to storm into that fucking vineyard without a proper plan. You owe him one, dammit... Still W/X are left stuck with one another, heartbroken, tryin' to stifle tears and give some comfort the way real friends do. After all they've been through, everything they had in the end was each other (at this point Willow is mature enough to stay with the person she loves instead of turning scary an' veiny and going after the bad guy like she did in Tough Love). And yeah, I'm glad Anya isn't around to spoil the moment. Speaking of Anya... The X-Demon attempts to do some fine thing and cheer up the girls whose morale hits rock bottom by then (in fact Anya didn't irritate me that much in later season 7, at least when Xander wasn't in the close proximity). It's not that the Potentials need to know 'bout ex-vengeance demon's sex life so bad, but... Kudos for trying... And, you know, Andrew is not that bad if he keeps his mouth shut after all. Meanwhile Faith and Kennedy slowly emerge as the gang's new alpha females, tryin' to take matters in their own hands. Two seemingly bad girls and horny types Spoiler (yours truly would be happier if the writers left Willow alone in the following ep and let Kennedy play her games with the raven haired beauty instead. And I prefer Xanya on the kitchen floor to be cut out completely!) Faithie is still remorseless for raping Xander as a thank-you gift after him helping her in The Zeppo, bragging about having the boytoy first. She doesn't seem to be even remotely apologetic for the whole murder attempt in Consequences either. Spoiler In fact we do not see F & X face-to-face for the rest of the season. What if you try to freakin' talk to a person you owe an apology first and then go fucking your new boytoy Robin Wood, huh, Faithie?? But, of course, no. It's Xander, not Angel Almighty after all. Who in their right mind will apologize to some window-fixing clown? So what's the deal with countless F/X fanfiction ever since??? And then Her Royal Slayerness returns home with the police reports (her reaction to Dawn's questions considering wounded Xander is quite remarkable). Work is about to begin, but a simple replica makes the Chosen One suddenly change her mind and head out to the desolate Sunnydale High. Quote DAWN Hey, Buffy... How was Xander's mood, you know, exactly? (Buffy doesn't look at her) And did you get a chance to talk to the doctor about the meds? Because it seemed like— FAITH Hey, pipsqueak, why don't you go get some of the stuff you've already gotten from Giles? DAWN Or, um, we can talk about this later, maybe. BUFFY(still hasn't looked at Dawn) OK. DAWN Yeah. I'll be right back. BUFFY Try to find anything that looks like Caleb, his church, his ring... KENNEDYHis ability to render a slayer useless in just one punch. (Buffy looks up, hurt; Faith frowns) I didn't— that was stupid. I don't know why I said that. BUFFY (stifling tears, stands) Uh, it's OK. Um...you know, I—I have to go to the school to pick up the rest of my stuff. KENNEDY(stands) I really didn't mean— BUFFY It's fine. Really, it's fine. Don't worry about it. Hey, uh... isn't Anya doing that thing for you guys today? To this day most fans hate Kennedy with a passion. But, logically, if you think about it, what's Kennedy got to feel guilty for?? Did the dark haired SIT lie deliberately? Didn't we see the disastrous battle scene at the vineyard in Dirty Girls? Well, then, why this ridiculous overreaction, Buffy? Someone challenged your alpha female status in your little "army"? Or just established the fact? You wanna be a leader, but act like a crybaby. At the school office Buffy expresses some remnants of humanity still within her. She picks up a picture of herself, Willow, and Xander from the good old high school times, touches Xander's face and sniffles (well, it's hard not to feel sympathy for the Slayer that moment, but again why cryin' at the high school picture of your friend and not spending some time with him if he's still alive?..) Then Caleb appears and the fight begins. Eventually the annoying preacher gains the upper hand, sending Buffy flying through a glass window to land unconscious across the hall. God, I still hate Caleb, I still hate that pathetic SOB. I'm disgusted. And not because he was, you know, eeeeviiil, but because he was nothing more than a miserable megalomaniac pain in the ass, who constantly talked-talked-talked. Angelus in season 2 was truly evil and menacing, Mayor Wilkins in season 3 was evil, but somewhat charming, Adam in season 4 was annoying, but dominating nevertheless. But Caleb seemed to inherit his personality from his twin (soul) sister Glory - equally annoying, self-centered shit-talking pathetic excuse for a villain, who spent most of her screen time talking the talk. But enough with preacher-impersonating shithead. I always wondered: did Buffy have some dreams while lying unconscious in the school hall ("The short lack of consciousness was nice. I feel rested.", she said, right)? Did she dream of Spike, his naked torso or something else that made her beg for more? I've got a theory considering Buffy's supposed dream. Probably she saw Spike making gigantic inscription that said "I HAVE A SOUL NOW" in front of 1630 Revello Drive , using cold dead naked bodies of the Scoobs and the Potentials as parts of the letters... A truly erotic dream... Back at the Revello Drive Dawn and Giles are reviewing the police file, when Andrew walks in and starts annoying the shit out of both of them, bitchin' about Faith stealin' "the last meatball-and-mozzarella-flavored hot pocket out of the freezer". Man, I just appreciate Giles' self-control, in fact I appreciate everyone's restraint when it comes to Andrew and them not killing him the next day after Willow brought him in in Never Leave Me. Then the Slayer #2 appears and I still chuckle whenever I recall Warren's former henchman's reaction... Kudos to ol' G-Man for sending the annoying kid to accompany Spike on a mission to investigate one of the leads considering Caleb. The two (the vampire and the nerd) fortunately leave, while Faithie takes the gals to The Bronze for some partying (despite Sunnydale being evacuated en masse the place is crowded). Then Queen B. comes back and has a conversation with her former Watcher and once a father figure, and it's just sad... Very sad... Quote GILES Uh...uh... yes. Very much so, I think. Um... there's evidence that Caleb may have established a foothold up north. BUFFY That's great. That's— GILES I, um... I sent Spike to look into it. BUFFYSpike? Is this a mission from which you intend Spike to return alive? GILES Yes. I sent Andrew with him. BUFFY Again I ask the question. GILES Buffy, you weren't here. Decisions have to be made in your absence. BUFFY Yeah, well, those are the ones that have been scaring me. GILES I did what I thought was right. BUFFYYou sent away the one person that's been watching my back—again. GILES We're all watching your back. BUFFYFunny... that's not really what it feels like. GILES Buffy— BUFFY Where did everybody go? GILES What? BUFFY Faith. The girls. Where are they? GILES Um...Faith thought that the girls could do with some time off their studies. I—I thought...She took them to the Bronze. Bitch. Filthy ungrateful bitch. Cynical. Zero respect for the others, even for those who helped her all these years. No sympathy whatsoever, except when it comes to her bleached vampiric obsession (Spikey seemed to be a true "garden spot of the world" or something). Spike-Spike-Spike, the sun rises and sets with him. God, how I wanted Bitchy to say those words later in the evening, to call Captain Peroxide "one person that's been watching my back" in front of the others: Faith, Giles, the Potentials (some of them injured), Robin, Dawn, one-eyed Xander, exhausted and heartbroken Willow, Anya... Man, and there are still plenty of fans confident that Bitchy was right and everyone else was wrong, and that she was the real "victim" in the end... Poor-poor Buffy, boo-hoo... The Bronze. Faith dances seductively echoing the days of Bad Girls (Eliza D is really sexy with her moves, but I would never dance with her out of fear to lose control, heh...). Everyone seems to have fun while Nerf Herder plays, being the last ones to hit the stage in the club. Quote KENNEDY What kind of band plays during an apocalypse? DAWN I think this band might actually be one of the signs. Well, you know, it's kinda hard for me to equate bloody pop punk band from sunny California with something Apocalypse-related, but that's just a matter of taste I guess... Back at The Bronze Faithie shows to be both law-abiding citizen (takin' an alcoholic beverage away from underage Amanda) one moment and the lawbreaker (resisting police officers) the other. Walking contradiction girl, she is. Oh and the following showdown between the Potentials and all-male Sunnydale police force, acting under control of the Hellmouth... Gee, those screenwriters. Suddenly remembering the Spuffy show was intended (long-long ago) to be about "girl power". And what is best way to prove your girl power street cred other then pitting the gals and those peasants in uniform against each other? Well, Faith, yeah, she was a Slayer, but Dawnie and the baby Slayers with no superpowers back then defeating the bunch of trained and equipped guys in hand to hand combat? And they not only just beat the shit out of those cops, but none of them got hurt in the process! What can I say, it's Buffyverse after all. The strangest thing is that if the First Asshole manipulated the unfortunate cops into going to The Bronze to "take care" of the Slayer #2, why all the cheap showing off together with the semblance of procedure? Entering The Bronze in full uniform, taking Faith outside unrestrained and then attempting to shoot the babe execution style (like the Bolsheviks did)? Why not sneak in plainclothes and shoot Faith at point blank range? Or gun them all down when they start to leave? Who cares about the procedure when the Apocalypse is at hand? How about snipers? Slayers are not immune to gunshot wounds, I guess. If the hellmouthy police really wanted Faithie dead, there were lots of ways to do it without engaging in an open confrontation. And why the heck totally male police force? No gals left at the department? Then Buffy Almighty shows up with a large amounts of holier than thou attitude. Quote BUFFY Faith, I need to know that these girls are gonna be safe when I'm not around. FAITH No one got hurt, B. Look, you don't even know these girls. Maybe you should have a little more confidence in 'em, let them mess up sometimes, you know, get down and dirty. How the hell else are they gonna learn? BUFFY Learning from your mistakes is one thing. But you don't throw children into— FAITH They're not children. BUFFY That really isn't the point. (walks off) FAITH Yeah, what about the vineyard? BUFFY(stops walking) What? FAITHHow safe were they when you dragged them off to meet Caleb? How safe was Rona or Amanda or Molly? Enraged, Buffy punches Faith in the face, knocking her down to the ground. Buffy walks away. What we got here is... another case of exterme immaturity and senseless childish bullying. Buffy, you weren't like that back in season 2. You were 17 then, you're freakin' 22 now... What a show of true "maturity" and character growth when someone uses fists as the last answer to problem. Was Faith wrong here? No, she wasn't. She was right. Taking the girls to the club was a less dangerous thing to do (at least in theory) than executing your stupid and criminally insane idea with the vineyard, Buffy. But Her Royal Slayerness got nothing to say, so she resorts to physical violence to prove the point. After dealing with Spike/Andrew doing Starsky & Hutch impersonation at the mission and Faith/Wood pre-coitus bonding we go back to the Summers' living room following Xander's return from the hospital. The climax moment. That's when the badness started. Buffy comes up with a "bloody brilliant" idea of returning to the vineyard for more. Quote BUFFY No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them. And, lo and behold, the others just didn't buy it. 'Cause the first attempt was such a huge success, you know. Btw, B., how exactly does "it's time we go in and take it away from them" correspond with your previous statement made during the argument with Faith post-Bronze that "those girls were drunk"? You wanna take the intoxicated SITs on a mission with ya, Buff? How nice... Quote FAITH Or, in the alternative, how 'bout...we don't? I mean, it's a neat theory, B, but I'm not going back in that place, not without proof, and neither should you and neither should they. BUFFY I'm not saying it's gonna be easy. ROBIN WOOD I think Faith had the floor. FAITH Maybe it ends OK the way you wanna play it, but maybe it doesn't. And right now, I don't think I want you playin' the odds. BUFFY Did you come here to fight? FAITH Listen, we're fighters, all of us, but you gotta give me something to fight, something real, not— GILES Windmills. BUFFY There is something there. GILES Maybe. But we can't be sure of that. This is a hell of a lot to ask. ROBIN WOOD Too much. Seeing that her plan doesn't work, Buffy starts to freak out... Quote BUFFY(grinning nervously, looks around) I—I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this— exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what— suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me? GILES Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed. BUFFYIs that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me? GILES Oh, come on. You've kept everyone safe because you were part of the team, Buffy, and there were certain people around you always ready to help with saving the day in one way or another. Those people are right here with ya, darling (one rejected, one maimed, one broken, but still here), and they can tell lots of interesting stuff. Did those Monks of Mindfuck erase your memories completely, B.? It gets better though. Quote RONA You know what? I am sick of your deal with this Spike guy. This isn't about him. This is about you. You're being reckless. BUFFY What? RONA You are! I don't even know you, and I can tell! You are so obsessed with beating Caleb, you are willing to jump into any plan without thinking. BUFFY(through gritted teeth) That's not what I'm doing. KENNEDY Well, that's how it feels to us. People are dying. WILLOW(stands, walks up to Kennedy) Kennedy... KENNEDY(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her? WILLOW(softly, sadly) I'm not. BUFFYWhat do you mean, you're not? WILLOW With everything that's happened, I— I'm worried about your judgment. And many people still hate Kennedy and Rona... Rona is right here: Caleb challenges Buffy's alpha status and she's willing to do anything to prove she's the boss. Screw everyone else and how many lives are there to sacrifice, if Buffy cannot think 'bout anything other then kicking preacher's ass at all costs. Kennedy's right too: people are dying. Yes, the war's going on, one might say. People die in the war, true. But not every casualty is necessary and the war itself is hardly a justification for incompetence of someone in the position of power. It's kinda bizarre, that the ones who mourned Angel's demise in Becoming, Part 2, are sometimes the same who view Potentials dying as mere "collateral damage". Like their lives are worthless compared to... And I appreciate the shock on Buffy "What do you mean, you're not" Summers' face, when Willow finally has the guts to disagree with her (once) best friend. She was Buffy's support-o-gal for far too long, but Diane's and Molly's deaths along with Xander's injury were the straw that broke the camel's back. Quote BUFFY Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you. ANYA And it's automatically you. You really do think you're better than we are. BUFFY No, I— ANYA But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. BUFFY I— ANYA But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us. BUFFY I've gotten us this far. XANDER But not without a price. BUFFY Xander— XANDER I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must be a little bit to my left... 'cause I just don't. We may think what we want about Anya, but that was one of the very few moments in the series I really liked her. Buffy's superiority complex had to be addressed somehow. Someone had to tell the hard truth. She wasn't an Anointed One, entitled to have everything handled to her on a blue plate just in order of primogeniture or something. Suck it up, baby, you are no better than the rest of them. The Chosen One, but not the best one, entitled to be in charge no matter what. Quote BUFFY Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again. GILES We are clearly demonstrating that we are not together on this! BUFFY(commandingly) Which is why you have to fall in line! I'm still in charge here. Wow, Slayer, wow, hold off. Down, baby. And, btw, who made you a queen of the world, bitch? Quote KENNEDY Maybe we need a vote... to see who wants Faith to have a turn in charge. BUFFY No. KENNEDY No, what? BUFFY No. You don't get to vote until I've had my chance to pal around, you know, get everybody drunk. See, I didn't get this was a popularity contest. I should have equal time to bake them cookies, braid their hair— FAITH Learn their names? BUFFY You're just lovin' this, aren't you? FAITH You have no idea what I'm feeling. BUFFYCome in here, take everything that I have... You did it before. Did you tell them that? Did you tell them how you used to kill people for fun? Hey, you guys think that's nifty? GILES Buffy, that's enough! I know Faith was a bitch three years ago when This Year's Girl and Who Are You happened, but... if you insist Robin has to forgive and forget everything that was done to him (coz it's Sssssspike, ya know) in the name of the mission, how about following your own advice, honey? But once again our Bitchy is sooooo superior to everyone around... Quote FAITH I didn't come here to take anything away from you, but I'm not gonna be your little lapdog, either. I came here to beat the other guy, to do right, however it works. I don't know if I can lead. But the real question is...can you follow? Well, she can't. That is not the case, when you're dealin' with someone suffering from megalomania. She has to be in charge and woe to those who doubt Buffy the Vampire (S)layer! Finally. My "Dawn's moment" of the show. Quote BUFFY I can't watch you just throw away everything that— I know I'm right about this. I just need a little— I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster. DAWN Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too. I'm aware 'bout the amount of vitriolic hatred Kennedy, Rona and the Scoobs continue to receive to this day from Buff's fanboys. How dared they??? Who gave them the right to challenge St. Buffy??? Every Buffy's decision was right and woe to those who dare to think otherwise. Buffy's friends, who gave their helping hands, forgave and forgot all along, right up to the moment when her arrogance and incompetence (season 7 speaks volumes about how "competent" B. was to lead her "army") became painfully apparent, are all of sudden a bunch of opportunists who has to be trampled into the dust for their "betrayal". Sad. Well, karma is the bitch, baby. You've proved to be unfit for command, Queen B., and it's not Rona's fault. Eventually Buffy had no choice but to walk out the front door. Probably the only right thing she did during the whole ep (maybe the whole season even). Buffy got what she deserved. Spoiler Only for the writers to un-write the whole "fall of Buffy Summers" storyline in the subsequent episodes and make her once again to be the victor and the good girl. One more reason to say season 7 sucks... Edited September 8, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Halting Hex September 8, 2018 Share September 8, 2018 (edited) Ah, couldn't wait, huh? It's an interesting mix of an episode; some heartbreaking characterization, and some character assassination. Some clever logic, dressed up in bull-headed stupidity. And, at a time when I had decided (post-Lies Joss Whedon Told Me) to boycott any scenes that featured Spike or Anya or anyone but B/W/X/G and Faith (there are vast swathes of these four episodes that I've never seen and never will, including much of the Spuffy), we had Giles sending the two whiny man-bitches off together, making it easy for me to skip their scenes and feel safe about watching the rest of the episode. That said…Clem can suck it. Moving on, On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: The hospital scene between Willow and her one-eyed friend is a truly heartbreaking moment of the whole season, sort of a real outcome of W/X involvement with Buffy. The Slayer seems reluctant to spend more time with those who used to be her best friends from the beginning (I cannot even describe Buffy's almost murderous glare after Willow suggested the card games). Not "suggested". Willow reminded Buffy of the promise she was breaking. "There were going to be card games" is one of the most heartbreaking lines of the series, with Willow visibly on the verge of cracking and Buffy too ashamed of her own failures to be there for her friends. I mean, it's better than the contempt and near-hatred she's seemed to have for them for most of UPHell, but even so. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: Still W/X are left stuck with one another, heartbroken, tryin' to stifle tears and give some comfort the way real friends do. After all they've been through, everything they had in the end was each other It's wonderful characterization that Xander is nearly in more pain because of Willow's heartbreak than because, you know, he just lost his damn eye. But it's infuriating that Buffy is making him do this, because she can't suck it up and be there the way a real friend would. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: And yeah, I'm glad Anya isn't around to spoil the moment. Well, yes, I'd rather have Willow there than Anya, because I love Willow and I…less-than-love Anya. But it's fucking absurd that she isn't there; it makes the whole thing seem forced. Instead, where is Anya? Doing "comedy" in the basement with Fucking Andrew. I believe I got maybe halfway through this scene before giving it the skip. (The part where Anya actually talks about her and Xander fucking on Spike's cot was the breaking point. Seriously, the man you love is lying maimed in the hospital and you're…telling random strangers about your sex life?? There.Are.No.Words. It would be one thing if Anya was having a breakdown and babbling randomly, but no, this is just Anya being Anya. FFS.) She and Andrew would really be a perfect couple. They're both murderers, they're both elementally vile, and they're both obsessed with cock. Now just turn Andrew into a greedy capitalist, and it's a match! Spoiler I've never seen their hospital scene in Episode 143: I Honestly Can Never Remember the Name…and I never will. A goddamn wheelchair race? We really needed to waste time on that? Fuck you, whoever wrote that episode. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: Faithie is still remorseless for raping Xander as a thank-you gift after him helping her in The Zeppo Now, now, let's not retcon things. Xander was perfectly willing to be "steered around the curves". What Faith might have done if he'd resisted, or what she might have done in Consequences, is a different issue. He was "up with people", even without Faith contributing. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: So what's the deal with countless F/X fanfiction ever since??? Not just since, F/X Fanfic goes back to S3. If the authors didn't feel they were getting enough on-screen interaction in S7, that's an argument for fic to "fill the gap". (Not a reference to Xander's eye socket. Goddamn you, Joss.) On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: At the school office Buffy express some remnants of humanity still within her. She picks up a picture of herself, Willow, and Xander from the good old high school times, touches Xander's face and sniffles Yeah, but who cares? Expressing your emotions in private when you couldn't be there for those who needed you is fundamentally selfish. It's like Angel sulking about wiping out Buffy's memory of "the forgotten day" in I Will Remember You; you "nobly" took away Buffy chance to have a say in her life, you don't get to feel bad about it. (Not perhaps the best analogy, but still.) On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: God, I still hate Caleb, I still hate that pathetic SOB. I'm disgusted. And not because he was, you know, eeeeviiil, but because he was nothing more than a miserable megalomaniac pain in the ass, who constantly talked-talked-talked. Fireflop, aka More Proof That Joss Had Lost It, for some reason inexplicably has fans, some of whom referred to Fillion's Malcolm Reynolds as "Captain Tightpants". Riffing on that, I've always called Caleb "Father Talkypants". Gods, could that idiot yap! Spoiler End of Days!! I've remembered the name of that episode! Yay me? And I know that Fillion can act…you just can't prove it by this. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: BUFFY: You sent away the one person that's been watching my back—again. Okay, Buff, I'll bite: how has Spikey been "watching your back", exactly? Yes, he was part of your expeditionary force last episode, but there were over a dozen people there. Before that you had to save him from Robin, and before that all he did was fight random students, and before that he was off fighting a demon that initially kicked his ass while Willow was saving yours…and we haven't even gotten back to the four-part borefest (Sleeper through Show Time) where he was either mind-controlled or bound or a helpless hostage. Really, Spike contributes very little this season. Maybe Buffy means "watching my back" as a euphemism for "checking out my butt". (Ah, Cordy! Ah, Killed by Death!!). Nostalgic for having Bitch Boy bend you over and butt-bang you, are you, Buff? Geez, did you lose that vibrator Willow bought you last year? On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: FAITH: How safe were they when you dragged them off to meet Caleb? How safe was Rona or Amanda or Molly? How about Diane, Faith? Diane died, too! Gee, I guess Buffy wasn't the only one who couldn't remember the cannon fodder's names. (To be fair, Dirty Girls was Diane's first episode, as well as her last. But Rona and Amanda are just fine, so don't waste your tears on them, Faith.) On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: Buffy comes up with a "bloody brilliant" idea of returning to the vineyard for more. Which, to be fair, is based on excellent and logical deduction…Caleb wouldn't be wasting all this effort trying to decoy Buffy away from the vineyard if he wasn't trying to keep her away from there. (Why he staged the trap in preceding episode there if he didn't want Buffy nosing around is a different question, but perhaps the First was simply sloppy and just got lucky that Buffy was unprepared for Caleb's power.) Of course, this doesn't excuse Buffy's dumbass idea to drag the potentials along. Vineyard 1.0 could be excused as Buffy thinking it was a relatively-safe quasi-training exercise, but now it's clearly life-or-death, just bring your best. You, Faith, Willow, maybe Giles, and maybe Kennedy, since she seems to have her shit together. (And you could wait for Spike, but he's not as strong as you or Faith, so no big loss.) And then we get to the real stupidity, as Buffy tries to argue down the entire room, for no reason. A "general" doesn't debate the troops; that's why you have officers, to delegate. Buffy should be having a war council with her key "aides", not every random Rona. (In Show Time, the Scoobs even used telepathy to keep the situation from degenerating into just such chaos.) On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: ROBIN WOOD: I think Faith had the floor I think you're a fucking party crasher, President Palmer, and you shouldn't even be in the room. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: GILES: Windmills. And this goes on the small pile of "Oh, shut UP, Giles!", that I wrote about before. You're either in or you're out, but you're not supposed to be a "pile on" type of guy. Piss-poor characterization. I could see stony silence, but not this crap. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: ANYA: It makes you luckier than us. Er, Anya does remember that Buffy has died, twice, doesn't she? I mean, maybe she was too obsessed with thinking about Xander's penis while X was recounting how he saved the world with CPR back in Prophecy Girl, but she was there the second time. She had rubble fall on her head, she probably bitched about the cost of the "She Saved the World a Lot" headstone, and she got to witness Willow puking up the snake. Strange definition of "lucky", that. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: We may think what we want about Anya, but that was one of the very few moments in the series I really liked her. Nope, still loathsome. The Hellbitch who sold her soul for power, twice, has some balls trying to judge Buffy for being born into a life that will inevitably kill her before her time. I mean, Buffy's death is so fated it's been fucking prophesied. Go count your money, whore. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: Quote BUFFY: I've gotten us this far. XANDER: But not without a price. BUFFY: Xander— XANDER: I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must be a little bit to my left... 'cause I just don't. But I say "Fuck you." Biggest piece of shit in the whole pile. What happened to "she's earned your trust", Xan? Was that just a bunch of hot air, and now that you got hurt you'll be just as petty and pissy as your demonic lust-bunny? The whole fucking point of Xander's speech in Dirty Girls, the reason Buffy and Faith were feeling that "down-low tingle" while watching him, was the subtext, the idea that danger is always present and nothing's guaranteed, but that Buffy is a good person and tries her hardest and deserves your (pardon the pun) faith. And if we go down, we go down fighting, knowing that we did our best, for the right reasons. But now…for all of Anya's talk about Buffy acting entitled, it's actually Xander who does it here. Something went wrong? Well, let me blame you for it forever, then. Forget everything I said before, I didn't really mean it. As I said, "fuck you." (Yes, I'm holding Xander to a high standard here. But he's usually worth it. That's why I love him.) You know how people give Xander stick for "I'm sorry your honey was a demon. But most girls don't hop a Greyhound over boy trouble" in Dead Man's Party? I'm with him there; Buffy acted emotionally and irresponsibly and people (like Andy Hoehlich, and anyone Vamp!Andy might have killed) died because of it. How the heck did Buffy screw up here, exactly? Yes, she got beat by somebody she didn't know enough about, but that happens sometimes. It sucks that Molly and Diane died and Xander lost the eye, but again, Xander just got through saying that these are the risks they have to take. Hypocrite. And damn you for making me call him that, Drew Greenberg. (Then again, he is heavily medicated.) On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: BUFFY: Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again. Oh, don't be a pussy, Buffy. Your willingness to debate "strategy" is lame after you just demanded obedience. Either you're a dictator or you're not; learn to own it. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: BUFFY: (commandingly) Which is why you have to fall in line! Er, no, they don't. They have free will. "I'm going, who's coming with me?" is fine. "Fall in line", not so much. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: KENNEDY: Maybe we need a vote... to see who wants Faith to have a turn in charge. And no, you don't. Not a democracy. Buffy's the Slayer and she takes input, that's how it works. You want to convince Faith to start her own "army", feel free. But don't assume that you can make Buffy "turn over the keys" to Faith. Especially as you know absolutely nothing about this chick you just met. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: FAITH: I didn't come here to take anything away from you, but I'm not gonna be your little lapdog, either. Er, which of you just broke prison where you're serving a sentence for multiple murders, again? Just checking. Again, you don't want to work with Buffy, fine. But you don't get to arrogate command for yourself, either. On 9/8/2018 at 9:02 AM, lembergwatcher said: BUFFY: I can't watch you just throw away everything that— I know I'm right about this. I just need a little— I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster. DAWN: Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too. Hey, Dawnie? You're 16, maybe 17. You don't actually legally own shit. Buffy's your legal guardian. She owns your green energy ass. Of course, this is more S7 garbage writing. Buffy pulls that "I can't stay here" out of her ass, just so we can get this absurdity and Buffy can wander the streets sadly (barf!) Spoiler and fall into the arms of St. Spike and the Cuddle of Chastity (BARF!). Sheer idiocy, just to polish Spike's knob some more. A fitting end to a wretched ep. Willow/Xander greatness notwithstanding. Edited September 9, 2018 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
illdoc September 8, 2018 Share September 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Halting Hex said: How about Diane, Faith? Diane died, too! Gee, I guess Buffy wasn't the only one who couldn't remember the cannon fodder's names. (To be fair, Dirty Girls was Diane's first episode, as well as her last. But Diane wasn't "dragged off to meet Caleb", so she needn't be mentioned in this context (nor Eve or ..Chloe? (the Winnie the Pooh fan)). Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 8, 2018 Author Share September 8, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Er, Anya does remember that Buffy has died, twice, doesn't she? Maybe, the Hellbitch herself wasn't a good speaker and they did it wrong making her voice all that stuff (or did it deliberately to nullify the whole point), but the initial message was right: Buffy was no better then the rest of them, she was chosen to be the Slayer because The Powers That Suck wanted her to, not because she was some sort of God's gift for the mankind. Danger and premature death came with the whole Slayer mojo package, that's all. For centuries the Slayers were mere instrument in the Council's hands to fight evil. Being a Slayer (even the best one) wasn't enough for a leadership bid - that was the point. Buffy's track record proved her to be the good foot soldier, but even the best fighters are not always fit to be generals. Yes, Anya sucks, but there's no need to dispute stating that 2+2=4 solely on the grounds that Anya/Spike/Robin/Andrew/Kennedy/Faith said so. True, she has died twice, but as of spring 2003 she was still there annoying the shit out of everyone nevertheless. Which made her somehow luckier than the others (than Jenny, Kendra or Tara at least). And at that point I could stand almost any other character (Anya, Andrew, Kennedy, Giles) more than Queen B. Hell, even Angelus could get a higher score from me back then. Therefore I didn't care that much about Buffy's past merits. She was too incompetent to be in charge (which doesn't mean Faithie had to take her place). 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: The Hellbitch who sold her soul for power, twice, has some balls trying to judge Buffy for being born into a life that will inevitably kill her before her time. Well, ok. Does that mean everyone had to turn blind eye on every Buffy's antic just because she was "born into a life that will inevitably kill her"? After all, who insisted on Anya's participation in the fight (Him)? You harvest what you have sown, Buffy. 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: But I say "Fuck you." He was heavily medicated and we can cut him a slack, can't we? ) After all, losing an eye isn't exactly the same as breaking the rib. Some people don't have slayer healing, you know. And I wanted Xander to have his "fuck you, Buffy" moment since probably late season 3, so... Then the writers deliberately made Buffy say those words about watchin' her bu... back in private conversation with Giles. I wanted her to say those words straight into Xander's face. As for Xander's own speech in Dirty Girls... never liked it actually. No hypocrisy, he just had to put Queen Buffy in her place again since The Yoko Factor. 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Which, to be fair, is based on excellent and logical deduction… If she was going to execute her excellent plan (even bringing the best of the best) the way she did in DG (without proper plan or preparation, even without some freakin' walkie-talkies), then I say no freaking way. 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Er, which of you just broke prison where you're serving a sentence for multiple murders, again? Wait, who broke prison? That was Wesley's idea (the guy probably liked it when that gal tortured him all night long). 'cause he wanted so badly to clean up Angel's mess. No better candidate was identified, and Joss didn't have that many Slayers for us running around in... L.A.... 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Hey, Dawnie? You're 16, maybe 17. You don't actually legally own shit. Since everyone (and Buffy herself) were perfectly OK with underage Dawnie taking part in the gang's activity (even the slaying itself as we saw in Help), than she had a legitimate right to open her mouth like that. Again, that whole meeting could last for weeks without any progress in sight, so somebody had to cut the Gordian knot and tell Buffy to go take some rest. If the writers chose Dawn to do it, so let it be. Edited September 8, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Loandbehold September 9, 2018 Share September 9, 2018 8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Man, I just appreciate Giles' self-control, in fact I appreciate everyone's restraint when it comes to Andrew and them not killing him the next day after Willow brought him in in Never Leave Me. Whyyyyyy?????? Of all the fucking times to show restraint, why did it always happen when it came to Andrew? Hell, I'd be knighting Spike if he'd driven his motorcycle into an oncoming semi. He'd still walk away fine. (I admit, when it comes to Andrew, I have issh-yews.) Oh, the episode. I agree w/ Xander that Buffy isn't seeing the big picture. She has not produced a plan any different from the night before - a straight on assault of the vineyard. So, while her belief that Caleb's at the vineyard for a reason is valid, she should have convened the brain trust [tm Scrubs] away from the line soldiers to discuss strategy. The Life of the Slayer is brutal and short. I don't consider those who were "chosen" to be lucky. Certainly not luckier than those who never knew about vampires, demons or the forces of darkness. So, Anya wasn't right when she said that. However, being the slayer also doesn't mean that you were born w/ the ability to lead an army. The slayer was the vanguard of the army. And usually that was an army of one. (I'm not justifying what the Watcher's Council did or how it operated. There's a reason that 21 year-olds don't enlist and immediately get named generals. You need to be trained on strategy, etc. It's supposed to take a lot of time so that if and when you reach that point you'll have some clue what needs to be done and how to do it in the way that both accomplishes the task and does it w/ the fewest number of casualties.) I don't recall where I read it, but there was posted a different version of that final scene. The arguments made in that version made more sense than what ended up in the episode. I also don't believe Faith raped Xander in The Zeppo. He knew what she was doing and he was an active participant. She did try to kill him in Consequences, and it would have been nice if we'd seen her apologize to him for that. 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex September 9, 2018 Share September 9, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: True, she has died twice, but as of spring 2003 she was still there annoying the shit out of everyone nevertheless. Which made her somehow luckier than the others No, that means that Buffy is fortunate that she has good friends, one of whom knows CPR (and doesn't mind forcing reluctant vampires along at cross-point) and the other of whom will let magic forces use her body as a vessel to summon the "warrior of the people" back from (probably not) heeeeeeeaven. To quote a grammar blog: Quote Being fortunate is similar to luck, but with a key difference. Good fortune adds a level of control to random chance. Being fortunate means you created your own luck. Anya is claiming that Buffy has been nothing but the beneficiary of pure luck, when in fact random chance has fucked her just as badly as it has every slayer before her. But as some blond guy once said, "A Slayer with family and friends. That sure as hell wasn't in the brochure." Buffy survives everything, even death, not because she was "lucky" but because she didn't pout her way through Welcome to the Hellmouth, no matter how "retired" she claimed to be, she went and rescued two virtual strangers (poor Jesse being less fortunate, I'll allow) and helped Xander grow into truly being someone who "laughs in the face of danger", without so much of the "hide until it goes away" qualifier; who made it possible for Willow to be comfortable in being the group's only hope, no matter how much she reflexively wished they could have another hope. Or, as Buffy herself says in The Wish, when asked about the secret of her (emotional) survival: "I have you guys". Nikki Wood was born a Slayer. The Boxer Rebellion Slayer was born a Slayer. Sid's Korean friend was born a Slayer. Lots of nameless girls who took the easy way out at the Cruiciamentum were born Slayers. None of them are Buffy, her highs (dying to save the world) and her lows (disgusting corpse fetish) and everything in between. And "luck" had very little to do with it. So Anya can suck it. (Pretty much full time, but I digress.).Yes, Buffy should be called out when she's wrong (after all, I'm on W/X's side in virtually every Big Scooby Fight except this one), but this isn't Buffy's friends and colleagues demanding respect and cooperation; bar some OOC lip from Xander and Giles, this is a bunch of tertiary characters acting like assholes. And "you're just lucky, that's all" makes about as much sense as it would have if Buffy had replied, "Oh, yeah? Y'all are just jealous." Seriously, Anya showed good sense in The Yoko Factor by retreating to the bathroom and checking out the tile. Go make sure the toilet isn't backed up or something useful like that, and leave the Scooby Dynamics to people who actually know how to play nice with others. Feh. Edited September 9, 2018 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex September 9, 2018 Share September 9, 2018 4 hours ago, illdoc said: But Diane wasn't "dragged off to meet Caleb", so she needn't be mentioned in this context No, Dianne was one of the SITs that Buffy (and company) brought to the Vineyard; the girl Caleb terrorizes and kills earlier in the episode is Shannon. I mean, Dianne gets a whopping zero lines before she tries to whack Caleb with the sword and gets her neck snapped instead (and we have to go to the script to even learn her name), but Buffy did in fact bring her to that place. 3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: If she was going to execute her excellent plan (even bringing the best of the best) the way she did in DG (without proper plan or preparation, even without some freakin' walkie-talkies) The failure in 7.18 was less on Buffy not having a plan "with maps and stuff", and more on Buffy's choosing to stand still and let Caleb punch her in the face. That wouldn't have even worked against Lagos. As long as Buffy remembers to move and duck and stuff like that, she'll be fine. Spoiler As future episodes will ultimately prove. Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 9, 2018 Author Share September 9, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Loandbehold said: However, being the slayer also doesn't mean that you were born w/ the ability to lead an army. The slayer was the vanguard of the army. And usually that was an army of one. (I'm not justifying what the Watcher's Council did or how it operated. There's a reason that 21 year-olds don't enlist and immediately get named generals. Well exactly. After Buffy's proud declaration in Bring On the Night ("'Cause we just became an army. We just declared war") my initial response was to sit there and wait while Buffy would educate herself on strategy, tactics, other aspects of military planning, since war is not a mere fighting (you've got an army stationed in your house, not some fellowship of friends, Buff! Army is not just a bunch of people armed with weapons, you know). Being the kickass Slayer isn't enough to be the general (therefore "I'm the Slayer = I have to be in charge" is just rubbish). Yet, even so, every general needs to have his/her staff and has to listen to their opinion at least from time to time (when nearly everyone from your inner circle says your idea sucks, as we witnessed in Dirty Girls, it will be better to take something into consideration). And with regard to topic of actual military knowledge/experience, one have to admit Xander was more suited to be in charge when it came to military-styled operations. But Xander was there only to: 1) clean-up the mess at Revello Drive; 2) babysit Dawnie; 3) be Buffy's permanent yes-man (even if Buffy didn't know shit), 'cause, you know, no power. And by "power" in Whedonverse we mean only the ability to kick monsters' asses in a spectacular and artistic way, and faster healing afterwards, and the gift of magic (when you either cast spells that do not work the way you want them to or you are afraid to cast them, because of, well, higher possibilities of screw-ups). 14 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Anya is claiming that Buffy has been nothing but the beneficiary of pure luck Let's admit: Anya wasn't good with words. Hence they chose her to deliver that speech (because everyone in the Summers' living room had to look full of shit at that moment due to writer's intent, though not all of them did, but JMO). 14 hours ago, Halting Hex said: this isn't Buffy's friends and colleagues demanding respect and cooperation; bar some OOC lip from Xander and Giles, this is a bunch of tertiary characters acting like assholes. Dawn was Buffy's sister (though mystically created), not some random stranger (again Buffy had nothing against her participation, she made it clear in Grave). Anya was de-facto member of the Scooby Gang since 1999 (and Buffy referred to her as one of her friends in Him). Faith was Buffy's sister Slayer (rogue through much of their shared history, but Buffy didn't object to Willow bringing her from L.A.). Kennedy or Rona were newbies, but Buffy herself didn't make it that clear they were merely foot soldiers in the army barracks who had to obey without question, keep their mouths shut and respond only in "Yes Ma'am/No Ma'am" manner. She's the Slayer (General), they're just the SITs (soldiers). How about reminding them (since the whole "we became and army" shtick) of subordination before those two started to act like assholes (leave Kennedy naked and chained at the basement in Get It Done, for example)? Buffy screwed up discipline in her own army and you expect Giles/Xander/Robin/Willow/Anya to respect or follow blindly such a shriveled excuse for a military leader? OTOH Rona and Kennedy were teens, took the serious beating, lost some of their friends in the fight, so we can cut 'em a slack for being emotional. Teenagers aren't supposed to be thinking rationally. 14 hours ago, Halting Hex said: The failure in 7.18 was less on Buffy not having a plan "with maps and stuff", and more on Buffy's choosing to stand still and let Caleb punch her in the face. That wouldn't have even worked against Lagos. As long as Buffy remembers to move and duck and stuff like that, she'll be fine. You mean going to the place she had no knowledge of, without proper reconnaissance, having no idea how many enemies were there or whether the whole place had one/two entrances, with no convenient weaponry (who said the Hairbringers were immune to guns/explosives?), using just one narrow passage to enter the building, having a bunch of young inexperienced girls under command, wasn't a recipe for disaster? Quote XANDER So, what's the signal? BUFFY I'm thinking lots and lots of yelling. Lots and lots of yelling, my ass. What if the walls happened to be sound proof? Did the Slayer know about walkie-talkies? Back when Nighthawk ruled the gang five years earlier, the Scoobs had two at least. But Buffy was too superior for such small details. Moving and ducking and stuff like that was good enough while facing vamps/demons on average patrol. But a military-styled operation? Ducking wasn't enough to take down the Mayor on the Graduation Day back in glorious '99, mind you (Buffy was sane enough to trust Xander's judgement back in the day). She'll be fine - true, but emphasis on the word "she". What about the rest of the "army"? Either go there alone/together with Faith or be a good girl and set aside some time for planning with "maps and stuff", Buffy. But don't try to talk them into repeating the whole disaster afterwards. Edited September 9, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 9, 2018 Author Share September 9, 2018 (edited) IMO the whole dethroning Buffy '03 moment was in some way reminiscent of the dramatic events of '99. In terms of subordination Buffy was almost the same to Quentin and Wesley as Kennedy/Rona were to her years later. Subordinate. The difference is that the Watchers Council was a structured institution, while the Scooby Gang (except when it came to Buffy and Giles at the beginning) was the band of friends. Xander, Willow, Oz, Anya or Tara weren't chosen, conscripted or recruited, they volunteered to participate in the fight. And Buffy failed to create a real fighting force from what she had, because of being, well, mere a foot soldier herself. Why should we expect Xander all of a sudden to shut his mouth and be all "Yes, Ma'am"? Just because Buffy did have the power and he didn't? In '99 Buffy simply told Quentin and Wesley "Screw you, I'm in charge here from now on!". Maybe she was the super-Slayer with the magnificent track record at the moment, but those two were her superiors. And yet that doesn't stop Queen B. from starting the teenage rebellion (just because her boyfriend's unlife was at stake) back in the day. And yeah, an attempt to leave powerless Buffy under the same roof with the crazed vamp in Helpless sucked, but was that any different from leading unprepared Potentials (because someone in charge had ants in her pants and thus no time to think about it all) with no real powers against First's henchmen, like the sheep to the slaughter? And she for some reason expected everyone to fall in line... The events depicted in Empty Places were quite similar to what we saw in season 3, only everything was reversed somehow. Buffy's past came back to bite her in the ass, that's all. Edited September 9, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Halting Hex September 9, 2018 Share September 9, 2018 6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: you expect Giles/Xander/Robin/Willow/Anya to respect or follow blindly such a shriveled excuse for a military leader? I expect Giles and Xander to act as Giles and Xander would, if this were a normal "Buffy argues with her friends" debate. Which don't involve following blindly, but that's a straw man. I expect Robin the party-crasher to get kicked out on his ass, and while Anya's been useful in a planning session before (The Gift), that hardly justifies her inane "you're just lucky" speech. (Which, btw, was shoe-horned in because it was meant as a critique of George W. Bush at the opening of Eternal War #2 [Iraq]. Which is IMO moderately interesting, but somewhat OT for the show.) The SITs are certainly tertiary characters, and while Dawn is a secondary, she's never been involved in any planning before this Spoiler and Buffy tries to actively exclude her from the final fight in Chosen and she doesn't weigh in until Buffy's threatened to take her ball and pout on out of there, so the whole issue was pretty much moot by then, anyhow. And coming up with hypothetical obstacles that didn't actually exist is surely an exercise in futility. The failure in Dirty Girls didn't have anything to do with walkie-talkies or anything like that. The problem was that Buffy decided to stand stock-still and let herself get knocked unconscious. One would hope she's learned from that mistake. 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 9, 2018 Author Share September 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Halting Hex said: I expect Giles and Xander to act as Giles and Xander would What about Buffy acting like Buffy did on similar occassions in the past (Graduation Day, Part 2, Primeval), i. e. listening to what her friends were saying? And, btw, Willow said almost the same things Xander said (different words, similar meaning), but she's still "smiles and sunshine" (unlike everyone else). 4 hours ago, Halting Hex said: I expect Robin the party-crasher to get kicked out on his ass I expected Buffy to stay away from Robin after saying she'd let Spikey kill him. No one put gun to her head and demanded bringing Wood in (even Faith). 4 hours ago, Halting Hex said: while Anya's been useful in a planning session before (The Gift), that hardly justifies her inane "you're just lucky" speech It's a question what sucked more: "you're just lucky" speech or all those countless "everybody sucks but me" speeches? The first was merely a reaction to the latter IMO. 4 hours ago, Halting Hex said: The SITs are certainly tertiary characters, and while Dawn is a secondary, she's never been involved in any planning before this Which proves my point that someone whose name started with B. didn't know shit about being in charge (mantaining discipline first and foremost). And the girls "were drunk" after going to The Bronze, remember? What's the use of discussing anything with the bunch of drunk brats? As for Dawn - she's just an example of Buffy's utter failure as a parent. 5 hours ago, Halting Hex said: The problem was that Buffy decided to stand stock-still and let herself get knocked unconscious. Alright. If everything depended solely on Buffy's fighting skills, then the whole storyline since Bring On the Night was totally meaningless. If all it took to win was Buffy coming and kicking ass, then what was all that bellowing about? What was the purpose of all the gibberish considering "army" and "war"? It was much better then to enter the vineyard having only Faith and Spike to watch Buffy's butt/back after disbanding the Potentials and leaving Xander to play cards with Dawn and Willow. But if the whole point was reforming the old Scooby Gang into something completely different (militant organization), than actual planning made sense whether you like it or not. And btw, what if kicking Caleb in the balls wasn't enough to win the fight and take what they came there for? How about some plan B? But the main point is this: if Buffy was really sane back then, she'd just go take a nap herself (she desperatly needed it), let everyone else have some rest and leave the future plans for the morning. But since all she could think about (when she wasn't having wet dreams about Spike) was "Caleb-Caleb-Caleb", then everything went out of control and Buffy ended up getting kicked out of her own house. Spoiler And sending Dawnie and Xander away in End of Days was just a cheap attempt at revenge for humiliation in Empty Places. If she had a chance, she would send Willow and Giles (and even Faith) somewhere else, because Spike was all that mattered in her twisted world. Link to comment
Halting Hex September 9, 2018 Share September 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: What about Buffy acting like Buffy did on similar occassions in the past (Graduation Day, Part 2, Primeval), i. e. listening to what her friends were saying? Well, I said that Buffy was wrong to try to "argue down the room" (especially as the room includes lots of people who shouldn't be there), but what exactly are her friends saying, after all? "We're hurt and we're scared and we don't trust you any more"? How is that productive, exactly? (And that's before we get to Anya and the actual rebellion.) 12 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: And, btw, Willow said almost the same things Xander said (different words, similar meaning), but she's still "smiles and sunshine" (unlike everyone else). I think "I'm worried about your judgment" (Willow) is a fair distance for blaming her for his injuries and implying that it gives him the right to dismiss Buffy's argument, possibly forever (Xander). Willow is concerned; Xander (and Giles) are being petty and pissy. That said, Willow should have tried to get Buffy alone. She was just a bit too protective of Kennedy here, I'll allow. 16 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: I expected Buffy to stay away from Robin after saying she'd let Spikey kill him. No one put gun to her head and demanded bringing Wood in (even Faith). No, he just decided to barge his way in and nobody said him "no". I completely agree that Buffy failed to create a command structure. Which is, arguably, what Watchers are for (not necessarily barking orders, but making sure the machine keeps running), but the Buffy/Giles relationship has been falling apart for a while now. (Maybe if Giles hadn't spent months being so aloof that people thought he was the First? Just a thought…) 21 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: It's a question what sucked more: "you're just lucky" speech or all those countless "everybody sucks but me" speeches? The first was merely a reaction to the latter IMO. Which is why it shouldn't be held up as some Great Truth, IMO. It was just cheap revenge by the Vengeance (ex-)Demon, no wisdom involved. 24 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: If everything depended solely on Buffy's fighting skills, then the whole storyline since Bring On the Night was totally meaningless. "And you're what, shocked and appalled? [The writing staff is] evil!" But yeah, as a Thematic Challenge for the season "We just became an army" is no "Giles, I'm 16. I don't want to die" or "Love makes you do the wacky", that's for sure. (And I'm not saying that Buffy needed to challenge Caleb one-on-one, necessarily. But letting herself be taken out of the fight so easily, right at the start, certainly blew a big hole in whatever plans the "army" might have had. Walkie-talkies or not.) 1 Link to comment
secnarf September 10, 2018 Share September 10, 2018 2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: As for Dawn - she's just an example of Buffy's utter failure as a parent. I don't think that's a fair statement at all. For the vast majority of what Dawn remembers of her life, Joyce was her mother. Buffy suddenly found herself as head of her household and responsible for a whiny teenager at a very young age (she was what, 19 or 20?) No 20-year-old can be expected to 'parent' a 16-year-old in the same way their mother could, and any of Dawn's faults should be seen as either her own personality traits or a failure of her ACTUAL parents. Of course, I'm sure Dawnie is perfect just the way the monks made her. Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 10, 2018 Author Share September 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Willow is concerned; Xander (and Giles) are being petty and pissy. Maybe a little bit petty, and a little bit "ungrateful SOB", but I assume that's kinda forgivable in his situation. There are people who lack either Slayer healing (unlike Buffy/Faith) or infinite wisdom to be tactful enough and not to piss Buffy off (unlike Willow), but after suffering that kind of trauma and getting over the shock, after hours spent drugged with painkillers and other stuff, it's hard to expect someone acting totally rationally. No one is perfect (especially when you're guy with "no real power") and probably he could have found more proper words to express his concern/disagreement. But he wasn't that eloquent, because, you know, we cannot expect something like that from someone whose main input supposed to be fixing windows/making jokes/being demon magnet. What was the point of him being present on that "war council" anyway ("Welcome home, Xander. I wanted you to be here for this. I think you'll be interested in what I found out")? Someone in her right mind would send him to take some rest and recover, not expect someone who spent hours at hospital to be suddenly all cheerful and enthusiastic ("Gee, Buffy, your plan is bloody brilliant! Let's go back there and do it again."). Some people tend to be demoralized time after time due to different circumstances: we forgave Willow for nearly killing Dawnie while being stoned, we can forgive Xander for hurting Buffy's feelings (or acting like jackass) while suffering from heavy medication and post-traumatic stress. Whatever, someone had to explain it to Buffy, that everything couldn't be her way all the time. Xander, Giles, Willow, Anya (no matter how bad they were/appeared to be) had to burst Buffy's bubble. Yes, they tried to do it in some questionable way (involving tertiary characters or saying inappropriate things), but... That "Buffy wanted it = Buffy got it" vicious cycle had to be broken, period. Slayer or no slayer, dying twice or no dying at all. Ritual of Restoration? Screw Theresa, Jenny or Kendra. Buffy wanted her boyfriend back. Willow had to risk it all, everyone else to step aside. Secretly hiding dangerous murderer, who "only" attempted to kill all your friends (and partly succeded)? Throw some hissy fit when exposed and everything would end up with Giles accepting, Willow being all cheerleader girl once again and Xander backing away, Those damned councilmen didn't want to cure Buffy's precious boyfriend? Throw a fit once more, say "Screw you!" and even Wesley would follow the lead. Dawnie happened to be the Key and the "gift" from Monks of Mindfuck? The Scoobs helped anyway despite Buffy's initial refusal to reveal anything to her friends (like W/X were some little kids who had to be protected from the cold world outside with lies). The Watchers came to Sunnydale to tell Buffy Almighty what they knew about Glory on some conditions? Why would she act in a more mature way, other than trying to intimidate the Council with throwing swords e.t.c., if Travers and the rest bowed to pressure anyway? Lying deliberately to your best friends and treating them like shit after being brought back from Heeeeeeeaaaven? Choosing to spill the guts to Spikey, while saying "fuck you" to your own sister? Who cared, if W/X and the rest still stood by Buffy's side no matter what? Caleb probably had something of hers? Screw everyone who said it's was a bad idea, go to that freaking vineyard in spite of knowing nothing about your new enemy, try to take that thing at all cost, and simply refuse to spend some time with your badly injured best friend at the freaking hospital afterwards. We can call out Xander or Giles, Dawn or Anya (or anyone else) on their real or imaginable flaws, but the truth is: there are moments when enough is enough. Even if Buffy was right regarding going back to the vineyard and they were wrong. Sometimes people lose faith in their leaders and sometimes leaders are the ones to be questioned first ('cause Robin's or Giles' inadequacy was 1000 less dangerous than Buffy's at that moment). Link to comment
Joe Hellandback November 22, 2018 Share November 22, 2018 The Good; Spike and Andrew's road trip, the girls shaking their stuff at the Bronze. The Bad; So harrowing watching Buffy cast out after all she's been through. Again why doesn't Caleb take Buffy prisoner or something when he knocks her out? Anya says Buffy is 'luckier' than everyone else to be the Slayer but it hardly seems to be much of a prize? The Hellmouth influenced cops also seem a very handy contrivance. Best line; Rhona (on Buffy leaving) "Ding dong, the witch is dead!" Dawn; (rounding on her) "SHUT YOUR MOUTH!" (about time someone slapped Rhona down!) Women good/men bad; More misogyny from Caleb Jeez!; Hardest thing to watch is Dawn telling Buffy to leave (as she states, Revello Drive is her home too). Equally the scenes between Willow and Xander in hospital are so sad. Faith get's some nasty beatings although Angelus claims she's actually still looking for someone to beat the evil out of her. Kinky dinky; Anya refers to her and Xander's break-up sex to the Potentials, Faith reminds everyone she had him first. Speaking of which Faith starts putting the moves on Wood, who if not a boyfriend Buffy was attracted to and had at least one date with. Caleb speaks of the 'sweet pleasure of taming Buffy' which is odd phrasing for a guy who claims to abhor women especially in the sexual sense. Faith flirts with the cops who've come to arrest her, she must have a thing for the uniform (and maybe the handcuffs, nightsticks and fast cars?) as we've seen her do this before in Bad Girls ("I like him, he's butch"). Interestingly she later refers to Buffy as a cop even after receiving a thorough nightsticking and punch on the jaw. Captain Subtext; Giles hints that Buffy's partiality for her vampire boyfriends costs lives, alluding to Jenny Calender. Spike and Andrew bond on their road-trip over bar food. Spike threatens to bite Andrew which he has done before. With Willow away Kennedy chooses to dance with Dawn at the Bronze as indeed does Faith (closest thing to Buffy for her once more?). Dawn seems to have lost her antipathy towards Faith and they seem tight from now on. Guantanamo Bay; Buffy and co have a long talk about how they're not a democracy, that it takes one strong individual leader to be effective. Scoobies to the ER; Faith nastily bashed up but Slayer healing takes care of it all. Scoobies knocked out: poor Buff Total number of scoobies: 35 or so. Anya back but no Vi again. We never ever actually get to see all the recurring potentials (those with names and dialogue) together until the final ep. What the fanficcers thought; Read an interesting fic once where we discover that Caleb's mother was a Slayer who was sired and he was forced to kill her as a young boy as she tortured him. It was very well written, actually made you feel sorry for this screwed up monster. Questions and observations; It's Dawn who makes the breakthrough regarding the mission, her junior Watcher role really coming along, Giles even teaching her like his pupil. Andrew wears the same football helmet as Dawn wore when she rode on Spike's motorcycle (is it Hanks? I can't imagine Joyce, Buffy or Dawn playing American football? Maybe the lingerie ball?). Faith stops Amanda drinking alcohol at the Bronze, already adopting the leadership role. Last appearance of Clem on the show although he's back in the comics as Harmony's 'friend'. If you can't pierce the UberVamps sternum with your stake why not stab then upwards under the ribcage so you don't have to? Holy Water does affect them (Showtime)but not as much it does ordinary vamps. SMG hoarse again, both as Buffy AND The First. The SDPD have changed their uniforms but not their cars. Actually I would rate Jaws 3D (Lea Thompson is in All the Right Moves with Tom Cruise who is in Austin Powers Goldmember with Seth Green so in 3) as the second best in the series although a LONG way behind the fabulous original. Buffy doesn't want to talk about Xander not because she doesn't care but because she finds it too painful. Note Buffy doesn't actually object to Faith taking the girls to the Bronze, she just doesn't want them drunk and fighting. Marks out of 10; 8/10 Link to comment
illdoc November 24, 2018 Share November 24, 2018 Incidentally, what exactly was the plan that night? Was it (a) a night off, which is why Faith takes the girls to the Bronze for some fun (b) a meeting, as Robin Wood says he's there for or (c) Xander's "welcome home" party, based on the way Willow (?) says "Xander's home" when she hears a car pull up. Link to comment
lembergwatcher November 24, 2018 Author Share November 24, 2018 I'm afraid there was no plan. 'Cause field marshal Von Buffy sucked at planning. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback November 24, 2018 Share November 24, 2018 On 22/11/2018 at 7:34 PM, Dee said: Rhona is the best. STUFF Rhona! I so wish that Spoiler she'd died in the finale rather than Amanda. Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe November 24, 2018 Share November 24, 2018 Spoiler So, you root for Spike and Anya but you want Rhona to die for one bitchy remark? No offence but no wonder you like that season, you root precisely for whoever the writers want you to. Not really in the mood to rant at length about yet another incredibly stupid episode, I just want to mention the profound stupidity of "Only Slayers can be leaders" concept. Freaking Stone Age tribes didn't always pick the strongest warrior to be a chief because they had the wisdom to recognize that the smartest, or at least the most experienced person would be a far better choice. Not so in this "Girl Power" (but not really at this point). If you a woman but don't have powers forced on you by a not-so-subtly-metaphorical rape you should always, always listen and obey those who do. How progressive. Link to comment
Halting Hex November 24, 2018 Share November 24, 2018 (edited) To be fair, Spoiler Joe has expressed affection for Amanda on a number of occasions previously. So it's not just pure Rona-hate talking, I don't think. And at least Spike and Anya do die, never to return. (Angel season 5? What Angel season 5? Your words are strange…) On 9/10/2018 at 5:31 AM, lembergwatcher said: Caleb probably had something of hers? As Giles says, it could simply be Buffy's stapler. So that prophecy dream Buffy had in Surprise (about her and Giles opening an office supply store in Las Vegas) was clearly factoring into the First's plans… Edited November 24, 2018 by Halting Hex Link to comment
Joe Hellandback November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 On 24/11/2018 at 12:28 PM, Jack Shaftoe said: Hide contents So, you root for Spike and Anya but you want Rhona to die for one bitchy remark? No offence but no wonder you like that season, you root precisely for whoever the writers want you to. Not really in the mood to rant at length about yet another incredibly stupid episode, I just want to mention the profound stupidity of "Only Slayers can be leaders" concept. Freaking Stone Age tribes didn't always pick the strongest warrior to be a chief because they had the wisdom to recognize that the smartest, or at least the most experienced person would be a far better choice. Not so in this "Girl Power" (but not really at this point). If you a woman but don't have powers forced on you by a not-so-subtly-metaphorical rape you should always, always listen and obey those who do. How progressive. I root for Spike and Anya because they're funny and interesting, Rhona has no redeeming features whatsoever. Buffy has proved herself the leader time and again and has more than earned the role as Giles realises. On 24/11/2018 at 4:33 PM, Halting Hex said: To be fair, Hide contents Joe has expressed affection for Amanda on a number of occasions previously. So it's not just pure Rona-hate talking, I don't think. And at least Spike and Anya do die, never to return. (Angel season 5? What Angel season 5? Your words are strange…) As Giles says, it could simply be Buffy's stapler. So that prophecy dream Buffy had in Surprise (about her and Giles opening an office supply store in Las Vegas) was clearly factoring into the First's plans… Yeah, I get that too, I love Alien and Aliens (glad they stopped them there) but whenever I hear people talking about possible sequels to them I get these strange emails from some company called Lacuna Inc? Link to comment
lembergwatcher November 30, 2018 Author Share November 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: I root for Spike and Anya because they're funny and interesting, Rhona has no redeeming features whatsoever. Buffy has proved herself the leader time and again and has more than earned the role as Giles realises. Both of them would've been 10,000 times more "funny" or "interesting" if they were minor characters. Like, say, Willy the Snitch. And, mind you, Rona wasn't a psychotic killer (thus we can cut her some slack, don't you think?). Buffy's past record is hardly an excuse for her present incompetence. And in this episode we see "incompetence" written all over Buffy's face. Her attempts to act as both a democratic leader and an authoritarian commander at the same time just prove she's a shitty leader. "Giles, you have to fall in liiiiiiine!!!" Oh, fuck you, Buffy. Just shut up already. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 4, 2018 Share December 4, 2018 On 30/11/2018 at 7:19 PM, lembergwatcher said: Both of them would've been 10,000 times more "funny" or "interesting" if they were minor characters. Like, say, Willy the Snitch. And, mind you, Rona wasn't a psychotic killer (thus we can cut her some slack, don't you think?). Buffy's past record is hardly an excuse for her present incompetence. And in this episode we see "incompetence" written all over Buffy's face. Her attempts to act as both a democratic leader and an authoritarian commander at the same time just prove she's a shitty leader. "Giles, you have to fall in liiiiiiine!!!" Oh, fuck you, Buffy. Just shut up already. And Spike with his soul is not a psychotic killer either? Buffy has proven herself the leader time and again, she's like Dutch Cota on D-day making the tough decisions. We don't know if her plan would have succeeded or not but you can't doubt her for one failure? Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe December 4, 2018 Share December 4, 2018 One failure? She has many failures in this season, it's just that the First is dumber than a box of rocks and doesn't order its minions to finish her off for no reason. And being proven to be right in the past doesn't mean people should follow you forever, no ifs, no buts. Many a leader in history had a string of good decisions, followed by a string of disastrous ones later on. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 5, 2018 Share December 5, 2018 On 04/12/2018 at 12:30 PM, Jack Shaftoe said: One failure? She has many failures in this season, it's just that the First is dumber than a box of rocks and doesn't order its minions to finish her off for no reason. And being proven to be right in the past doesn't mean people should follow you forever, no ifs, no buts. Many a leader in history had a string of good decisions, followed by a string of disastrous ones later on. George Washington only ever fought 9 battles and lost 7 of them? Buffy is a good leader who proved herself time and again, she could have been right or wrong, there was no easy choice. Link to comment
Halting Hex December 5, 2018 Share December 5, 2018 Well, Washington was fighting a guerrilla campaign, essentially, trying to lure the redcoats into traps, rather than protect specific assets. String it out long enough (there's no reason Parliament couldn't have sent another army after Yorktown) and just wear the invader out. "Conquest is easy, control is not." -James T. Kirk, Mirror, Mirror Many who start well, finish poorly. Napoleon and Hitler are only two obvious examples. 1 Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe December 5, 2018 Share December 5, 2018 (edited) Yes, I was reluctant to mention Hitler but he is a really good example of someone who got so many people to believe he was a great leader and later crashed and burned not least because he repeatedly refused to accept the reality of what was going on. Good previous track record can only go so far, it's not a carte blanche for a leader to have lifelong loyalty of from their supporters. Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 6, 2018 Share December 6, 2018 19 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said: Yes, I was reluctant to mention Hitler but he is a really good example of someone who got so many people to believe he was a great leader and later crashed and burned not least because he repeatedly refused to accept the reality of what was going on. Good previous track record can only go so far, it's not a carte blanche for a leader to have lifelong loyalty of from their supporters. Buffy is not Hitler! She makes tough choices, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 22, 2018 Author Share December 22, 2018 Quote GILES I, um... I sent Spike to look into it. (sips from his mug) BUFFY Spike? Is this a mission from which you intend Spike to return alive? Spike cannot return alive, Giles' intensions aside. In fact, he can't do anything "alive" since 1880s. Your boyfriend is a walking corpse, Buffy. He's an undead. Therefore his safety should have been your least concern. 1 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 28, 2018 Share December 28, 2018 On 22/12/2018 at 2:16 AM, lembergwatcher said: Spike cannot return alive, Giles' intensions aside. In fact, he can't do anything "alive" since 1880s. Your boyfriend is a walking corpse, Buffy. He's an undead. Therefore his safety should have been your least concern. Good point, maybe 'undusted' is a better way to put it? Link to comment
lembergwatcher February 2, 2019 Author Share February 2, 2019 And to think, what we've got here is... the last Xillow scene in the show. Horribly maimed Xander and grief stricken Willow, just a shadows of those vibrant schoolkids we see for the first time in Welcome to the Hellmouth. Those were really the unforgettable seven years, I must say, even though both Slayerettes paid the heavy price eventually and it was really heartbreaking to see them like that. Anyway, thank you for everything, guys. You two were the main reason I kept on watching the series after Buffy the Vampire Slayer became corrupt and was turned into Buffy the Vampire Layer. Spoiler Sadly, Joss decided X/W had nothing to say to each other one-on-one at the eve of the final fight in Chosen. Link to comment
Halting Hex February 2, 2019 Share February 2, 2019 Well, it's three episodes since we've had a Buffy/Willow scene (and that was just a one-line blurt in Storyteller), so I guess Xillow are outlasting Wiffy at the moment. Spoiler And will continue to do so, since B/W are done with each other, too. Sigh. Not sure it was worth losing an eye over, though. Link to comment
lembergwatcher February 2, 2019 Author Share February 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Not sure it was worth losing an eye over, though. Well, I couldn't agree more. We don't need Willow trying to destroy the world or Xander losing an eye to have Xillow moments. Link to comment
Halting Hex January 11, 2023 Share January 11, 2023 (edited) So, I was going to compare Anya's no-show at Xander's bedside with…something else (in another ep) and while I was here, I thought I'd dig out the actual quote of her explanation for staying with the SiTs (it's not as if I watch that scene; I'll just save the Three Musketeers scene and maybe the climax and that's it) and maybe contrast Willow's trying to cheer Xander despite her own pain, Buffy making a token effort but then leaving Xillow when they need her…and Anya being too broken up about Xander's injury to even try to comfort him. But, I was (more) surprised (than I should have been) to see…that's not the case at all: Quote ANYA: I, myself, would much rather be sitting at the bedside of my one-eyed ex-fiance than killing time here with you people in this overcrowded, and, might I add, increasingly ripe-smelling basement, and I would be too, if not for a certain awkward discussion he and I recently had right over there on that cot immediately following some exciting and unexpected break-up sex. But I need to give him some space. So, it's not that Anya's staying away because seeing Xander permanently brutalized hurts her delicate little heart or anything like that. She's just "fighting the last war" and giving him the "space" he asked for several weeks ago and under completely different circumstances. Are you fucking kidding me? The things you miss when you skip scenes. Huh. Ahn, darling, when Xander asked for "space", he didn't mean "even if I'm seriously injured and could use a little fucking kindness from the woman I wanted to spend the rest of my life with". Sheesh. I tell you, that Inca Mummy Girl is looking pretty good by comparison, right about now. (What if we just brought Ampata on patrol and let her drain life force from the vampires? That'd be okay, right? Less work for Buffy and all. We don't even need to have her kill Angel. Not right away, anyhow.) Edited January 12, 2023 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 13, 2023 Author Share January 13, 2023 On 1/11/2023 at 9:51 PM, Halting Hex said: Ahn, darling, when Xander asked for "space", he didn't mean "even if I'm seriously injured and could use a little fucking kindness from the woman I wanted to spend the rest of my life with". Sheesh. But then Anya either has a change of heart or doesn't trust Willow too much and decides to help. At least in escorting her one-eyed ex back into Casa Summers. Although they should've led Xander to the bedroom since the guy deserved some rest. There was no need for him to sit there in the crowded living room and hear inadequate Buffy suggesting they go back to the vineyard... Link to comment
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