Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[AyChihuahua]

"But at those points, Oliver didn't know that Ra's would raze Starling City if he accepted the offer though."

 

 

This is from a ways up the page, but Oliver's conversation with Malcolm when Malcolm sneaked into Nanda made it pretty clear that Oliver knew the LOA would work to destroy SC if he accepted the offer.  It's unclear exactly when he knew, but at least some time before he accepted the offer.  So Oliver accepted the offer to become Ra's to save his sister, knowing that would mean SC would be attacked by the LOA.  Obviously he planned to try to stop it, but he was likely to fail and in fact did fail, twice.  If not for his team the whole city would be filled with corpses, and even with his team at least some people did die.  So he knowingly and intentionally risked around 500,000 lives for one.  Again, not as bad as Barry risking the entire Earth for one life, but still pretty shitty.  It's a comic book show, so I'm not going to hate him for it, but I would like him to examine his priorities and IMO rather twisted thought processes at some point, and work on doing a whole hell of a lot better in the future.

[tarotx]

The city was at risk from Ra's rather Oliver accepted or not.

[wonderwall]

I just find it hilarious that the journalist is on twitter fav tweets that say great interview awful comment section and that they avoid it like plague. To which he responds good choice.

oh could you link me this tweet?

[Velocity23]

 

oh could you link me this tweet?

Here

 

https://twitter.com/Enchantamor/status/608309105485344769

[AyChihuahua]

"The city was at risk from Ra's rather Oliver accepted or not."

 

That's not really accurate.  It turned out that at some point Darhk's presence factored in, but Oliver did not know anything about that until weeks after he accepted the offer, and we still don't know when Ra's knew Darhk was in town.  I'm guessing it was some time later, and is the primary reason Ra's accelerated the timetable.  To be clear, Ra's is the bad guy, not Oliver, but that does not change the fact that Oliver knew accepting Ra's offer would require the destruction of Starling City, and he did it anyway, to save his sister.  That's nice, and understandable, but it'd be nice if he cared a little more about everone else's sisters, too.   

[tarotx]

Ra's was going at the city with the fake Arrows. He threathen the city and all Oliver held dear.

[AyChihuahua]

He was going at the city to get Oliver to accept the offer.  (And he was killing a few dozen people, not 500,000.)  As far as Oliver knew, if he threw himself into a volcano instead of accepting the offer, Starling would have been just fine.  Again, it turned out later that Darhk at some point was in town, but it's impossible to know when, or what Ra's would have done about that without the Oliver situation, but most importantly, Oliver didn't know anything about that until weeks AFTER he accepted the offer.  What Oliver knew, for sure, is that accepting the offer would result in the LOA attempting to kill everyone in the entire city, but he accepted it anyway. 

[Ceylon5]

Here

 

https://twitter.com/Enchantamor/status/608309105485344769

 

So that's where all the nice positive comments about Emily's interview went!  Seriously, the internet has a split personality.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Ceylon5

[tarotx]

Yes Oliver could have killed himself to save the city. Great choices he had. Let Thea stay dead and join her in death or enter the league and try to find a way out of the mess. I just can't see Oliver as a bad or selfish guy in any way for this...

[kismet]

Reading the S03 Oliver/Felicity discussion in the relationships thread just makes me even more annoyed with what S03 did to Oliver/Felicity. Outside of some minor hiccups in 2B, S02's transition from Oliver/Laurel to Oliver/Felicity was freaking amazing. S03 squandered that buildup for the worst kind of angst and a badly written Tony/Pepper AU. They had no intention putting Oliver/Felicity together until E20 but decided some romantic angst was a perfect way to keep them apart in the meantime. Great. Fine. Whatever. Except for the fact that one freaking almost date and a weird hospital breakup is a crap foundation for EIGHTEEN episodes of romantic angst. Especially for budding/nonexistent romantic relationship. 

 

It didn't help that the breakup was dumb. He can't be Oliver Queen and be the Arrow??? Since when? Wasn't a problem in S01. Granted, sometimes the Oliver Queen persona came off very calculating and fake. But he mostly pulled it off. By S02, he was really getting hang of juggling his different identities and even forging new ones. He can't be with Felicity and be the Arrow? The playboy thing is a little overblown but Oliver managed to get around even during his S01 spree killer days. I'm on this forum so obviously I get that Felicity is “different” from Sara/Helena/McKenna/Laurel/etc. for Oliver. His hesitation is a delightful combination of that “the life I lead” speech and that longing look at Felicity with Lyla and baby. He thinks love, marriage, and a baby carriage when it comes to Felicity, which doesn't really gel with his death wish/PTSD. I get it but, I wanted to see that IN the show!

You write a far better s3. Also thanks for getting the "love & marriage" song stuck in my head. :)

[statsgirl]

"But at those points, Oliver didn't know that Ra's would raze Starling City if he accepted the offer though."

 

 

This is from a ways up the page, but Oliver's conversation with Malcolm when Malcolm sneaked into Nanda made it pretty clear that Oliver knew the LOA would work to destroy SC if he accepted the offer.  It's unclear exactly when he knew, but at least some time before he accepted the offer.  So Oliver accepted the offer to become Ra's to save his sister, knowing that would mean SC would be attacked by the LOA.  Obviously he planned to try to stop it, but he was likely to fail and in fact did fail, twice.  If not for his team the whole city would be filled with corpses, and even with his team at least some people did die.  So he knowingly and intentionally risked around 500,000 lives for one. 

We don't know when he knew though, and that's a problem with the writing and pacing of the show.

 

He didn't know in 316's The Offer because otherwise it would have factored into his decision whether he was going to accept the offer or not.  Then Ra's showed just how serious he was and started killing people via the fake Arrow archers.  Again, no mention of attacking Starling City because Oliver would have mentioned that.  It's a no-brainer that a few bad guys getting killed is better than the whole city being taken out so Oliver probably didn't know at that point.

 

One of the stupidest things is that MM didn't think to protect Thea from Ra's attacking her.

 

It seems to me that MM only told Oliver about that "wiping out the city" thing after Oliver was desperate and had decided to go to Ra's to get Thea LP'd.  Maybe when Diggle and Felicity were home packing for the trip and arranging with the hospital to release Thea.  If that's when it happened, when he was desperate to bring Thea back to life and willing to sacrifice himself to do it, and MM told him there would time before Ra's attacked Starling City, I can cut him something of a break.

[Ceylon5]

I've been thinking about characters and how we just know when they're being OOC and contorted to fit a plot instead of just being allowed to be themselves.  Many authors have spoken about how characters "have minds of their own".  The writer plans their story to go one way and the character instead goes off in a completely different direction.  It must be even more the case when your creations are being acted out by real live people, who can give your words completely different interpretations in their acting than you had intended.  So I think it takes a lot of courage and skill to be a TV writer and to let your creations not only go where they want to go, but also in the way the actors play them.  Many shows intentionally write to an actor's strengths, which is why characters sometimes seem to get better over time, as the writers become more in tune with the actors' mannerisms and interpretations.

 

But it's also obvious that every single line matters.  Cutting the wrong lines (not always in the control of the writers and actors, leading to some weirdness in the final product) or writing a line/scene that's very ambiguous or just flat out stupid, can affect not just that scene but everything that comes after it.  For instance, if they'd just excluded that scene where Ray hacked QC (with Felicity's unintentional help), everything that followed would have been different - she wouldn't have been angry with him, he wouldn't have pinged her phone, she wouldn't have rejected his job offer, he wouldn't have bought out Buy More, etc.  Everything that instantly put him on the wrong foot in much of the audience's eyes stemmed from one bad story decision.  And it was completely unnecessary.  None of that was needed in order for Ray to win QC or for Felicity to go and work for him.  Or take the scene where Felicity tells Thea about Roy not being dead.  To fix the fact that she had to wait for 3 weeks to tell her (for other story reasons), all they had to do was write that some of Thea's memories hadn't yet returned, Roy's death being one of them.  She could have just suddenly remembered at that moment and Felicity could have immediately reassured her and told her the truth.  Or the one where Felicity rushes to Ray to ask him to go and save Oliver - if they'd cut the scene right after Ray explained that he couldn't leave his desk (maybe with a heartfelt apology and a pan to her stricken face), they could still have achieved the "Gotcha" moment of Felicity's save, without Ray's stupid "it's one life...what would Oliver do?" line.  There were so many things like that all season, that just a slight tweak and a little bit of thought could have fixed. 

 

I'm sure often the writers interpret something one way, but then a lot of the audience interprets it in a different way.  That's especially true when the writers might have a lot more information at their disposal that either gets cut or which they just forget to tell the audience, taking it as read.  In my experience, nothing should be taken for granted.  While it's nice to have ambiguity and room for interpretation in some cases, these should be selected with great care.  There are many instances when being crystal clear is very important, and I think these writers have lost sight of that fact.

 

Bottom line, I think we have enough information about most of these characters to have a good sense of who they are, as do the actors.  And when the characters are forced to do things that don't work, both the actor having to act it and the audience having to watch it, immediately know that the writers have screwed up.  I get the sense that the actors didn't really like this season either and it must have been hard to have to do things that they knew didn't work.  I just wonder if these writers realised after the fact that something didn't work or if they're still not seeing the OOC moments the same way the rest of us are.  I wish there were fewer episodes in the season, so they could take more time and care writing each episode.  Because I don't care if the plot is stupid - most TV plots are - but I really hate it when they mess up characterisations.  They should rather make the plot dumber to fit in with who the characters are than make the characters dumber to fit in with the (already dumb) plot.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Ceylon5

[dtissagirl]

I'm pretty sure now that the season is over that Guggenheim was always the plot-driven guy, and Kreisberg was the character-driven guy. When they were co-showrunning Arrow, their tendencies balanced each other out, but now that Kreisberg is out of the day to day Arrow writers room, all they have left is Guggenheim and his plot-driven mess. He likes writing for shockers and gotchas, and he'll do whatever it takes to get the characters to those points, which leaves characterization secondary.

 

And it's not even that I think Kreisberg is a better writer , and there is quite some plot-driven shit on The Flash as well, but The Flash writers room also has Jaime Paglia and Geoff Johns. The Arrow room doesn't have anyone anywhere near Paglia's or Johns' caliber in the day-to-day episode breaking. These guys are pretty good with plot and characterization and long term arcs. Guggenheim is not good at either characterziation nor arcs, and there was nobody in the room in S3 that was. I'm guessing now that they made Wendy Mericle his co-showrunner on Arrow, that she'll show some talent for those things, but the episodes she's written don't exactly give me hope.

 

I keep thinking that season 2-B frustrated me plenty with plot-driven shenanigans and weird character arcs [hi, Slade], but season 3 reached whole new levels of unsatisfying storytelling overall. The grimdark post Sara's death was unbearable. The Oliver/Felicity stalling exhausted me between 309 and 320. I wanted Thea's story -- not Merlyn's story. I hated how they regressed Lance to his S1 persona. Oliver's identity issues rang high schoolish to me. Diggle got sidelined for less competent characters. Felicity didn't get her own story, she was cruising in Palmer's. The only arc I truly enjoyed from start to end was Roy's, and now he's gone from the show. In a season of 23 episodes, I only *really* liked about a third of them. The rest I don't plan on rewatching ever again.

 

But what I think frustrated me the most was that in contrast to S2-B, S3 bogged down on everything I don't enjoy about Arrow. I mean, Laurel was unbearable in 2B, but she was the only one disrupting my enjoyment and giving me cognitive dissonance. This season, there was Laurel, there was Palmer, there was Ra's, there was Merlyn. I didn't at any second enjoyed any of their stories. I don't believe in the actors, they don't give me any joy in the performance themselves. I don't believe in their characters' arcs, I don't believe in their motivations. So all I got from FOUR characters, for a whole season, was cognitive dissonance and exhaustion. And that is 100% connected to Guggenheim's insistence in writing for plot instead of character, because here were four people on his show that I couldn't understand, or connect with. Four characters that took me out of the story because I could see the plotting, but I could never see the characterization. It just sucked the fun out of watching the show. On top of not enjoying the plot arcs related to the characters I do love. Yikes.

 

Tl;dr: GOODBYE SEASON THREE, MAY YOU BE FORGOTTEN BY MY POOR EXHAUSTED BRAIN, AND NEVER AGAIN REPEATED. EVER.

Edited June 11, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Starfish35]

So......watched Corto Maltese tonight. Third of the four episodes I hadn't yet seen....next week will be the last.

I have lots of thoughts after watching that, but most of them are spoilerific for the rest of the season, so am posting them here instead of the episode thread.

ARGUS......I can't help but feel in watching this episode that ARGUS and Waller were originally supposed to play a much larger role in this season than they ended up doing. And I think WH said something along those lines at a recent con. The problem is....I can't figure out what changed, or would have been different. The way the season played out, with Ra's making the offer to Oliver.....how would ARGUS have ended up playing a role in all of that?

I'm also reminded how much the whole "no-kill" thing completely annoys me!! It would be one thing if they actually stuck to it and found non-lethal ways to incapacitate their enemies. But no, we're supposed to buy that Oliver is running around putting arrows, and in this episode bullets, into people right and left, but don't worry, they're all just wounded, not dead. It makes it seem like Oliver is just fine with killing plenty of nameless extras, he just has deep moral qualms about killing the ones that matter. If there's anything good about this season, I hope it's that they throw the stupid no-kill rule out the door next season, now that he broke it by killing Ra's.

Roy....this episode made me really sad that Roy's gone.

Diggle....I'm reminded that not even Diggle got off scot-free this season from doing things I'm irritated about. I think Oliver is still the winner, just by virtue of choosing to work with Malcolm, but no one emerged unscathed. Diggle....do not tell Oliver to keep lying to his sister!!!! (Especially since Canaries proves Diggle completely wrong about what Thea's reaction will be.) Let's add that to Diggle telling Oliver to cut Roy loose in Guilty (I thought that was completely ooc), and Diggle basically telling Felicity it's her fault that Oliver is distracted in Draw Back Your Bow. *sigh*

Laurel....Laurel thoughts will be posted in her own thread.

Ray.....was actually pretty nice this episode! At least until that rather sinister look at the end after looking at weapons blueprints. No idea at all why people might have thought he was a bad guy, writers! *facepalm*

The Thea/Malcolm storyline mostly reminded me of how much that whole arc really bothers me.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

Up until Ra's started shooting people dressed as the Arrow at the end of 316, I wasn't sure who was supposed to be the Big Bad of s3, Waller, Ra's or Malcolm.  That's not the way to tell a cohesive story.

[AyChihuahua]

 

It seems to me that MM only told Oliver about that "wiping out the city" thing after Oliver was desperate and had decided to go to Ra's to get Thea LP'd.  Maybe when Diggle and Felicity were home packing for the trip and arranging with the hospital to release Thea.  If that's when it happened, when he was desperate to bring Thea back to life and willing to sacrifice himself to do it, and MM told him there would time before Ra's attacked Starling City, I can cut him something of a break.

I don't hate him for it or anything, but he did knowingly and willingly risk (and a pretty big risk, really) an entire city to save his sister.  It's a superhero tv show, so I'm not going to get all riled up about it, but it's not all that heroic.  I mean, a lot of other people have sisters (and kids and babies and wives and husbands and parents and grandparents and friends and colleagues) in that city, too.  And I have to be consistent...I thought Barry was a ginormous douche for risking sucking the Earth into a black hole to save his mother.  Oliver did the same thing, just a city instead of the entire planet.

 

Totally agree with Starfish that Diggle didn't come out of the season as good as he went in, either.  Added to Starfish's examples, he also allowed himself to be sidelined for Laurel.  The Diggle of S1 and S2 would NEVER have put up with being sidelined for n00bs.  And also agree that Roy was absolutely the only character whose arc was good throughout (I liked where Thea ended up but hated her entire story until she shot her brother, basically).

Edited June 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure Roy got off free either tbh. He did some flip-flipping there in the middle of the season on the subject of working with MM that never did make any sense. But overall I think he got off better than anyone else did this season.

Added to Starfish's examples, he also allowed himself to be sidelined for Laurel.

I thought about adding that. But somehow I just can't blame Diggle for that anymore than I can blame Felicity for that horrible "light" speech in Canaries. I guess in both instances I see them more as writer pawns to facilitate Laurel's arc than actual characters, so it's hard to blame them. LOL. I did wish Diggle had called Laurel out for throwing his brother up to him, though. She had no right to do that. Grrr.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

One thing I figured out I was bitter about earlier today was the fact that they made the LoA attack on the city public & on the media. For some reason, I just think it would have been better if it had been a silent attack or maybe the residents of SC never knew what was happening. Especially since TA & the Arrow were supposed to be hiding. This would have been the perfect season to have a silent attack.  I loved QL's city is under attack, must by May line. But at some point you have to wonder why people want to be in SC? It seems like they are constantly being attacked. Or why don't they all just leave town for the month of May? Its like avoiding traveling to areas during hurricane or monsoon season. Next year, I hope HIVE tries to destroy the city & nobody finds out about it.

[Ceylon5]

I've put my finger on what it was that so bothered me about Oliver still saying at the end of the season that he couldn't be the Arrow and be with Felicity, but that he's decided he wants to be with her and not be the Arrow.  For the first 2 seasons, Felicity was an essential part of Oliver's hero journey.  The Arrow persona is actually more than just Oliver himself (that he doesn't realise this might be part of his identity problem); it's a team.  Oliver, without Diggle and Felicity, would never have become the Arrow.  Season 2 showcased this - starting with them hauling his ass off Give-Up Island and going through him realising that they're his partners and he can't do the physical side of it without them (Diggle watching his back and keeping him alive and Felicity doing the tech stuff), as well as them being an essential part of his emotional journey and helping him move from being a killer to being a hero.  They're the ones who stopped him from giving himself up to Slade with his Default Martyr Move, and Felicity is the one whose belief in him inspired him to keep fighting and "find another way".  His audacious, clever plan at the end of the season was built on her belief in him and on his trust in her.  He respected her enough as a part of their Arrow team to give her the key, dangerous role in the plan.  That is the Arrow team that we've all watched grow and evolve out of a little disparate group of lost souls.  Felicity is an integral part of who the Arrow is.  Oliver the man may love her and want her, but Arrow the hero needs her to succeed.  It's not metaphorical.  He literally does not succeed without her, any more than he would if he lost both his arms.  She is part and parcel of the Arrow success story.

 

So the Very Clever Plan of season 3 took Felicity and put her in opposition or competition with the Arrow.  This effectively stripped her of her most vital role on the show, which is to be a key part of the Arrow persona.  Sure, she still did the tech part, which is important, but that's actually not the most important thing she does to make the Arrow succeed.  If they were trying to show that Felicity is vital for Oliver's success as a hero, then admittedly they proved this in spades.  He made one disastrous decision after another, went full-on Martyr Mode to the point of being stabbed and tossed off a cliff, made multiple deals with various devils, and literally failed on every level as a hero and as a friend.  Felicity and Diggle balance Oliver's weaknesses out - when he is rash, they are level-headed, when he is foolish, they are smart, when he gives up, they encourage him and get him back on track.  When he tries to go it alone, it's a disaster.  He needs them just as they need him.  But this season, with Felicity distanced from him, things fell apart.  Things were so bad that Roy had to step up and take on one of Oliver's many Martyr Moments this season, talking Felicity and Diggle into helping him take the fall for Oliver.

 

So for the show to end with the same daft premise that it started on this season - that it's Felicity or the Arrow - is beyond annoying. Once they'd proven to Oliver that he's a broken Arrow without Felicity, the either/or should have fallen away, never to be spoken of again.  Presumably next season's purpose is to make Oliver into a New Improved Hero, with Felicity once again part and parcel of the process, but that this season ended without fixing one of it's dumbest fails is unforgivable.  It also makes Felicity a target for hate because to be with her, Oliver gave up what makes him the show's hero.  Why would anyone think that would make sense? Felicity's love for Oliver is partly grounded in her belief that he's a hero and she's as invested in their cause as he is.  So they have diminished Oliver and Felicity's love for each other by forcing them to be less than their true selves in order to be together, even though they're the ones who helped to create each other's true selves in the first place.  We loved their relationship in the first two seasons because they brought out the best in each other and made each other more than they had ever believed they could be before they knew each other.  This season took the things they value most in each other and made those the things they couldn't be if they were to be together.  What an incredibly nonsensical and stupid idea.  No wonder the audience didn't know what the hell was going on and why so many people hated "Olicity" this season.

[AyChihuahua]

Basically, the more one thinks about S3, the worse it comes off.  Honestly IMO one of the worst seasons of an established tv show ever.  

[wonderwall]

Basically, the more one thinks about S3, the worse it comes off.  Honestly IMO one of the worst seasons of an established tv show ever.  

 

Neh, I think S7 of Gilmore Girls, S9 of Scrubs, S10 of HYMIM were worse than this one... 

Edited June 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

There have been several terrible seasons of Supernatural and at least one of Lost, too.  But I'd put S3 in the overall top 10.

[lemotomato]

I dunno... if we're just talking about bad/unwatchable season 3's, "Heroes", "Alias", and "Prison Break" had worse. I think most shows like "Arrow" that were lucky enough to avoid a sophomore slump will trip up in seasons 3 or 4. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by lemotomato

[kismet]

Heros s3 was so bad it tanked the show. I actually enjoyed s3 of Alias (although 1&2 were better), but s4 definitely was the slumpiest of seasons (s5 was ruined by the network). Was Lost s3 when they brought in the back of the plane? Because that was just the dumbest choice ever. And then they had those random new plane survivors that they had to kill off in like 1-2 episodes because even the writers were tired of them.

 

Arrow s3 I will rank as a bad season, but its certainly was not the worst of all time. Honestly, I think some of their ideas we good - but the execution & pacing was horrible. The season probably looked so much better on paper. I wonder at what point they realized it got completely crappy but they were already invested on their choices. I think a lot of it had to do with MG being the solo showunner. There was no counterbalance as there was in previous seasons to pull back some of the plottier choices that ruined the characters. I hope the Wendy Mericle is more invested in characters than plot because that will be better news for s4. They need to focus less on making everything an epic game-changing twist or gotcha moment.

[loki567]

So MG's gone next season running LoT, right? 

[kismet]

Think he is going to be co-show running with Wendy Mericle. And show-running LoT (not sure if he has a co-showrunner there or not).

[Starfish35]

I think AK is also working on LoT?

[Sakura12]

The worst seasons for me are the seasons where I stop watching the show. The ones mentioned Heroes, Alias and Lost. I continued to watch those shows after their terrible seasons. Arrow now joins Pretty Little Liars, Grey's Anatomy, The Vampire Diaries and HIMYM on my list of shows that I stopped watching. So I'd consider Arrow season 3 one of the worst. 

[AyChihuahua]

I rage-quit Grey's Anatomy after that chick nearly killed the guy who needed a new heart to move him up the list, then he died anyway, and she was allowed to continue on to be a doctor.  I could not suspend my disbelief about that AT ALL.  I can suspend it way more on fantasy-type shows...guy who can run faster than the speed of sound, no problem.  Intern allowed to become a doctor after INTENTIONALLY jeopardizing patient's health, ending in his death, no frigging way.

 

S3 of Arrow made me rage-quit, so it's one of the worst for me.  I usually just lose interest and quit watching without even noticing.  I think Arrow S3 was only the second time I ever rage-quit a show.

[Starfish35]

I rage-quit after this most recent season of Grimm. I rage-quit Arrow after Sara's death, but then (unwisely) came back at SOOFS.

I'm trying to think if there's any other shows I've ever rage-quit. I don't think so. Mostly I just get bored and drift away, or certain elements irritate me enough to drop the show (OUAT I think might be about to that point), but it's not a rage-quitting thing. More just annoyance and not wanting to deal with it anymore.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Starfish35

[EmeraldArcher]

Sorry to change the subject from rage-quitting, but I must spout off about the whole men-know-better stupidity I'm encountering during my S3 re-watch.

1. In "Sara," Felicity lashes into Ray at QC about stalking her--sending flowers, calling, texting, emailing, and trying to force her to work for him by buying the company she works for. I probably don't need to point out that these were all true and legitimate reasons for her to be very, very angry with him. But, he responds with how he's used to people being pissed at him because he's the smartest man in any room, so he can tell that she's really mad about something/someone else, not at him. Felicity made valid points about why she was mad AT HIM, and he redirects it and is absolved of her legitimate accusations. This sucks for so many reasons; one of them is that the show devalued the concerns of a woman who had already endured stalking during college and recognized Ray's actions for what they were.

2. In "Corto Maltese," Laurel is acting in her role as ADA and is justified in getting angry with Ted Grant for lying to her about his student's alibi. She is trying to do her job and calls him out for breaking the law to protect someone who broke the law. But, in his infinite wisdom, Ted deflects her legitimate anger with him to point out that he can recognize that something else has made her angry. Again, the show devalues Laurel's professional expertise to priveledge a male she has just met.

Obviously, Felicity and Laurel develop relationships with Ray (business and romantic) and Ted (mentee/mentor), but the show undermines those relationships by having their beginnings so detrimental to the women.

[Lokiberry]

I'm bitter that Sara had to die so Laurel could be BC because comics, but Malcolm Merlyn can take over as Ra's Al Ghul and that's okeydokey. What?! I mean, Ra's isn't a a costumed identity like BC; it's the guy's freakin' name! Both characters are iconic to DC, but one has to be handled completely by the book, while the other is pretty much anything goes? I don't get it.

 

They threw Sara away because they didn't think they needed her anymore (until their spin off came up, that is). It never had anything to do with comics, and I wish they had the stones to admit it.

[tarotx]

The implication that Ra's is a title had been going around. It's kind of what's implied in The Dark Knight Trilogy.

But Sara had to haven been thrown away because of BTS power struggles. KC was cast as leading lady and she lost both her the love interest slot and her Canary identity. MG also was the last man standing in Arrow abd Law is his abd Laurel's thing so yeah that's hiw I see it.

[Lokiberry]

The implication that Ra's is a title had been going around. It's kind of what's implied in The Dark Knight Trilogy.

 

But it's not that way in the comics, unless they changed it up with the Nu52 twaddle. Ra's al Ghul has always been, well, Ra's al Ghul.

[tarotx]

I get that but these people are in love with that Trilogy. And there have been other leaders of the League. Also the meaning of Ra's Al Ghul lend's itself to being a title.

But I also truly believe Comic Fans would have started to see and Accept Sara as The Black Canary especially if the show gave Laurel a mask better suited to her in show history.

But it's not that way in the comics, unless they changed it up with the Nu52 twaddle. Ra's al Ghul has always been, well, Ra's al Ghul.

Edited June 22, 2015 by tarotx

[Starfish35]

So......finally got around to watching The Magician tonight. Last episode I hadn't seen yet.

The sheer amount of dumb makes my head hurt. When Laurel Lance is making more sense than you, Oliver, it's time to go home.

I honestly don't understand. Did they really just set their hero up to be the biggest moron on the face of the earth? Or did something major happen between this episode and The Climb that forced a change in who really killed Sara?

[AyChihuahua]

So......finally got around to watching The Magician tonight. Last episode I hadn't seen yet.

The sheer amount of dumb makes my head hurt. When Laurel Lance is making more sense than you, Oliver, it's time to go home.

I honestly don't understand. Did they really just set their hero up to be the biggest moron on the face of the earth? Or did something major happen between this episode and The Climb that forced a change in who really killed Sara?

You're being so unfair to Oliver.  I mean, Malcolm SAID he didn't have anything to do with Sara's death!  What, do you expect Oliver not to believe him or something?  And here Malcolm's been nothing but honest and forthright with Oliver for more than two years!  

 

Seriously, Oliver had to have been eating lead paint chips between 2 and 3.  

[EmeraldArcher]

Ok, this bout of bitterness is completely out of the blue, but it bugs me. I could probably post it in several places, such as in the relationship thread (because it is yet another reason why Felicity is not herself with Ray), or in Felicity's thread, or in the Secret Origins episode thread, or even in the production thread--but I mostly feel bitterness about it, and I'm sure Felicity did, too.

Finally, my point: Why would Felicity pour herself a cup of coffee immediately after brushing her teeth?! Ewwww.

She specifically mentioned she hadn't even looked at a cup of coffee yet, so it wasn't a nervous reaction to Ray's intrusion.

Another coffee complaint: When they have characters having coffee and holding disposable cups, why don't they ever actually put liquid in them? They're obviously empty by the way the actors handle them, and it always bothers me that I notice because it takes me right out of scene. It doesn't have to be coffee because the lid hides the contents, just something with some weight. I don't like the props to be so obvious.

[AyChihuahua]

I swear to God, the lack of liquids in cups on tons of shows has bugged the crap out of me for actual years.  Central Perk nearly killed me.

 

Hey, why did Malcolm tell Ra's Oliver was the one who betrayed him?  I mean in-show, what was the tactical reason to put more suspicion on Oliver?  (Out-of-show it was for DRAMA, but why in-show...I can't see any tactical reason to make Ra's more suspicious of Oliver, and to the extent he was already suspicious, they had the whole A/O "kill my team" plan ready to go if Ra's was suspicious, but why make him MORE suspicious?)

[dtissagirl]

The way Malcolm explained it, it was to manipulate Ra's into telling Oliver to kill Team Arrow. If Ra's was suspicious of Oliver's loyalty, he's ask for that, and Malcolm and Oliver had the vaccination plan ready to go.

[EmeraldArcher]

I think it was to solidify Ra's faith in him when he was "willing" to kill his old team--I think Malcolm might have mentioned that. Or, it could have been because if Ra's thought they were dead, they wouldn't be killed in a way outside of Oliver's control once he left. Or, as someone somewhere mentioned, it could have been so they wouldn't be guarded.

None of the reasons make very much sense, given Barry's rescue mission and his ability to take out every remaining LOA baddie left--so easily that it made one wonder why he wasn't called in way earlier.

Sorry, I can't give a viable in-show reason, after all. Arrow writers are a mystical bunch renowned for their infinite wisdom, and I will surely never understand the layered complexities of the tales they weave.

ETA: Sorry for the duplicate info; someone beat me to it.

Edited June 28, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[AyChihuahua]

But they could have done all that without raising EXTRA suspicion on Oliver.  Surely Ra's was already suspicious of him.  Why throw MORE suspicion on him before killing that suspicion?    

 

Oh God, the Barry thing.  The Barry thing KILLS me.  He took out the remaining LOA members in two seconds.  He could have taken out every one of them, including Ra's, in six seconds.  Lampshading that killed all my suspension of disbelief re why Oliver didn't just call him and tell him to pick up Ra's and stick him on Lian Yu (bc Barry doesn't kill bad guys even when he should).

Edited June 28, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[tarotx]

It was to get Ra's not to kill Malcolm? I nean for the Plan to work Malcolm needed to be alive and with team Arrow. I should rewatch because That's how I remember it. The episode's already cloudy

[AyChihuahua]

It was to get Ra's not to kill Malcolm? I nean for the Plan to work Malcolm needed to be alive and with team Arrow. I should rewatch because That's how I remember it. The episode's already cloudy

Because Ra's was going to kill Malcolm separately, not by A/O virus (and if he kills him not with A/O, he'd actually die)?  That is a great point.  Thanks!

[kdm07]

Can I join in on the rage-quit party? The shows that I've rage-quit are: Arrow (after S3E01); Glee (after S3 ended and I was hanging on by a thread then); The Good Wife (after this latest season) and OUAT (after S2 ended). I rage-quit Criminal Minds after S6E02 and then came back again in S7 when the original cast was reunited.

[kismet]

So I'm still feeling pretty bitter about the amount of time being spent on setting up the spin-offs. But I guess I might just need to get over that. My annoyance is that I was already planning on watching the show as it stood. If you bring a quality show to air, people will watch it. You shouldn't need 2 other shows to inspire an audience to watch your new show.

 

Anyway, I guess I am still also bitter about the heavy emphasis on costumed heroes vs. non-costumed heroes. I get that it is a comic book show and therefore more attention is going to be given to costumes. But those costume heroes still need assistance from non-costumed heroes. Starling City would have blown up if not for Quentin & Felicity disarming one of the devices during the Undertaking. Tommy & Laurel helped to protect and save that kid from her case in s1. OQ helped save Akio before he ever truly donned the hood. And there are examples from Flash as well. Part of me just gets frustrated that people can't look beyond the superhero masks and see that there are heroes everywhere. You are only as strong as your weakest team member. Most superheroes need a team to be successful.

 

On my bitter days I sorta want all the non-costumed heroes to just sit back and/or walk out and let the costumed heroes fend for themselves. Ray Palmer would have been dead without the help of non-costumed FS & Cisco. LL would probably also have been dead without QL & FS. BA is apparently perfect in every way according to Joe, but without Joe helping him would he accomplish as much? About the only person, I could actually see surviving without his team would be OQ & maybe SL. Both of them through life events have honed some pretty serious survival skills. But even they seem like shells of beings without FS & Sin to help them be more whole.

 

So yea, when everybody talks about who might be making it to the crossovers and who might not be critical enough or the writers undying need to Justice League the Legends of Flarrowverse - part of me just wants all the non-costumed heroes to have their own crossover set on a tropical beach with some delicious frozen drinks in their hands and taking some well deserved R&R. Some steel drums playing and good conversation. Because you know those are the people that are fun to be around and can save your ass in an instant without needing to manpain or pronounce their herodom for all the world to worship. Then of course it would all end in a second when their cell phones all rang simultaneously with the costumed heroes calling them back because surprise surprise they need some help. And all would be right again in the world.... until next week of course :)

[Sakura12]

I would love to see an scene with Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin having dinner together just relaxing and having fun, when all their phones start ringing because the heroes need medical assistance, weapons help and tech support. Then they all jump and go to help their team like any hero would. 

Edited July 24, 2015 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

I would love to see an scene with Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin having dinner together just relaxing and having fun, when all their phones start ringing because the heroes need medical assistance, weapons help and tech support. Then they all jump and go to help their team like any hero would. 

A cross-over opportunity they should take advantage of. The work-out montage in Secret Orgin of Felicity Smoak can be updated too. Do one of the Teams 'suiting' up. Oliver double checking his arrows, Felicity setting up her tech, etc..

[AyChihuahua]

I'm still completely bitter about how unbearably stupid and borderline sociopathic they made Oliver in S3.  He had been one of my top five favorite tv characters ever, behind Veronica Mars and Buffy Summers, but just ahead of Walter Bishop and Dean Winchester.  Now I basically hate him.  I'm sincerely sad about it, but every time I try to stop, I remember how he shit on his whole team and sister all season, massively shit on Felicity, endangered their lives and tricked and lied to them (I'll never agree that making them think they were all about to die was justified, especially when they were only in that position because of his moronic decisions, plus Akio died even though he was inoculated, meaning at least one of those five could have died as well), and knowingly and intentionally endangered an entire city just to save his sister, who wouldn't have been injured in the first place if he hadn't been so unbelievably stupid as to leave her alone in her own loft knowing RAG and his minions were gunning for Oliver's loved ones.  (At least I'm consistent, because I pretty much hate Barry Allen now, since he knowingly endangered the PLANET/solar system just to save his mom.)  I KNOW it was for plot, and I get that SA's sad puppy face makes a lot of people okay with it, but I can only judge the character by his actions, and the fact that he felt bad while doing horrifically shitty things doesn't make it any better.  Like great, you know you're shitting on people but you're doing it anyway.  Asshole.  (Still think SA's an excellent actor...my myriad problems with Oliver have nothing to do with the acting.)

Edited July 24, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[yellowfred]

After re-watching some of this past season as they've been re-airing it, I feel new waves of bitterness over how much more sense most of Season 3 would have made if Ra's had killed Sara instead of Malcolm (using Thea as a proxy).