All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't really decide where this goes, so since it refers to all episodes, past and future, maybe here?

Kripke's tweet to the Wayward Sisters

Huh. So he's basically giving them all the stories to potentially use in WS or what? That's really weird. 

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Huh. So he's basically giving them all the stories to potentially use in WS or what? That's really weird. 

Lord knows that our band of writers can't come up with anything creative! Maybe they should copy the tweet and take a hard look!

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Uh uh. Cause that's totally something Dean does ALL the time and oh BTW he did apologize for that stupidity. But I admire how you never lose your hate boner for Dean LOL

Technically, he apologised that she got sucked into an angel battle. He didn’t apologise for terrorising her by threatening to assault her at best and murder her at worst. He showed no indication he’d have felt a Sorry was needed if things had gone according to plan and they got Mary out. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Technically, he apologised that she got sucked into an angel battle. He didn’t apologise for terrorising her by threatening to assault her at best and murder her at worst. He showed no indication he’d have felt a Sorry was needed if things had gone according to plan and they got Mary out. 

I'm pretty sure Dean was apologizing for ALL OF IT including Jack's role with starting the mess by going to find Kaia in the first place, for Sam not bothering to intervene on her behalf when he could have, and for him pulling a gun on her.  They all 3 are guilty of coercing Kaia into going with them in the car.

[Wayward Son]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm pretty sure Dean was apologizing for ALL OF IT including Jack's role with starting the mess by going to find Kaia in the first place, for Sam not bothering to intervene on her behalf when he could have, and for him pulling a gun on her.  They all 3 are guilty of coercing Kaia into going with them in the car.

I don’t see it that way based on Dean’s behaviour prior to the angels arrival. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Wayward Son]

Ugh wrong thread! Sorry. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

IMO this is a good read mostly for her review of Nightshifter which I love to pieces. While I don't agree with all of her top 5's I do think that her views on the other episodes that she mentioned are interesting and it's always refreshing to read that everyone isn't impressed by the faves that fandom and critics seem to embrace: https://movietvtechgeeks.com/top-5-supernatural-episodes-might-surprise-spnfamily/

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

IMO this is a good read mostly for her review of Nightshifter which I love to pieces. While I don't agree with all of her top 5's I do think that her views on the other episodes that she mentioned are interesting and it's always refreshing to read that everyone isn't impressed by the faves that fandom and critics seem to embrace: https://movietvtechgeeks.com/top-5-supernatural-episodes-might-surprise-spnfamily/

I always like seeing people's top 5 or top 10 lists because I think that we all have different ones.  We all watch the show for different reasons and therefore different things speak to us from the episodes and resonate with us.  I also don't think that there is a right or wrong answer to the question.  Yes, you can argue the various good points and bad points of an episode, but in the end, it really does all come down to taste and priorities.  What's always interesting is to see a top 5 list that has 2 or 3 of your top 5 and then 2 or 3 of your bottom 5 and you wonder how someone who sees the merits in the ones you like, comes to also love those that you hate.  Just something I think is kind of interesting.

[nightwing877]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I always like seeing people's top 5 or top 10 lists because I think that we all have different ones.  We all watch the show for different reasons and therefore different things speak to us from the episodes and resonate with us.  I also don't think that there is a right or wrong answer to the question.  Yes, you can argue the various good points and bad points of an episode, but in the end, it really does all come down to taste and priorities.  What's always interesting is to see a top 5 list that has 2 or 3 of your top 5 and then 2 or 3 of your bottom 5 and you wonder how someone who sees the merits in the ones you like, comes to also love those that you hate.  Just something I think is kind of interesting.

It's always fascinating to me. But we're all different, and sometimes it's refreshing to see people like the not so common choices for favorites. But SPN has nearly 300 episodes, so I can't expect everyone to have the same picks. I find it almost impossible to truly list my top 5 or 10, way too many episodes. I can't go any lower than 50. 

[catrox14]

I can list my top 10 easy peasy

1) The End
2) Lazarus Rising
3) On the Head of a Pin
4) Nightshifter
5) First Born
6) Riechenbach
7) Advanced Thanatology
8) In My Time of Dying
9) Baby
10) The Prisoner 

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can list my top 10 easy peasy

1) The End
2) Lazarus Rising
3) On the Head of a Pin
4) Nightshifter
5) First Born
6) Riechenbach
7) Advanced Thanatology
8) In My Time of Dying
9) Baby
10) The Prisoner 

We agree on the two in bold! I also love The end and Lazarus rising, but not sure if I’d commit to top 10 for them but definitely top 20. I’ll have to go through episode lists and mull on it lol 

[Wayward Son]

After thinking it over I think I’ve settled on the following as my top 10. I love them all and couldn’t bring myself to rank them one to ten so they’re just listed by order they appear.

 

Faith 

In My Time of Dying

All Hell Breaks Loose Part I and II 

Jus In Bello 

Lazarus Rising

On the Head of a Pin

The Song Remains the Same

Swan Song

The Man Who Would Be King (Initially didn’t put this on the list, but I decided while I hate what follows this episode in and of itself is a masterpiece) 

Death’s Door 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can list my top 10 easy peasy

1) The End
2) Lazarus Rising
3) On the Head of a Pin
4) Nightshifter
5) First Born
6) Riechenbach
7) Advanced Thanatology
8) In My Time of Dying
9) Baby
10) The Prisoner 

See, this is the kind of thing I mean by most of them lining up, but then one being the one I think doesn't belong.  The End, Lazarus Rising an dIn My Time of Dying are probably in my top 10, or at least 20, and I love most of the rest of them.  But, I've always found Nightshfiter to be a little overrated even though I do really like it,  I really liked  On the Head of a Pin the first watch because we got a lot of info, but in the end it is a bit gory for me. But I absolutely HATE The Prisoner. And, for whatever reason, that's the kind of thing that I find interesting.  Mostly aligning, and then there's just one epi that I'm like what???  And, please, understand I'm not saying you shouldn't absolutely love that episode.  One of my biggest pet peeves is when people tell me what I should or shouldn't like which I find ridiculous, since like I said, we all have different tastes.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can list my top 10 easy peasy

1) The End
2) Lazarus Rising
3) On the Head of a Pin
4) Nightshifter
5) First Born
6) Riechenbach
7) Advanced Thanatology
8) In My Time of Dying
9) Baby
10) The Prisoner 

Agree with these although I would probably put Faith in On the Head of a Pin’s place.

[Katy M]

OK, I think I've figured out my top 10

1. All Hell Breaks Loose part 1

2. Lucifer Rising

3. Swan Song

4. The End

5. In My Time of Dying

6. I KNow What YOu Did last Summer

7. In the Beginning

8. Death's Door

9. Fan Fiction

10. Appointment in Samarra

After the top 4, they are subject to change on a daily basis:)  It's just so hard to pick out my absolute faves because I love so many

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

OK, I think I've figured out my top 10

1. All Hell Breaks Loose part 1

2. Lucifer Rising

3. Swan Song

4. The End

5. In My Time of Dying

6. I KNow What YOu Did last Summer

7. In the Beginning

8. Death's Door

9. Fan Fiction

10. Appointment in Samarra

After the top 4, they are subject to change on a daily basis:)  It's just so hard to pick out my absolute faves because I love so many

Nice list! In addition to the top 10 we have in common I’d say the bolded ones would be in my top 20.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Mostly aligning, and then there's just one epi that I'm like what???  And, please, understand I'm not saying you shouldn't absolutely love that episode.  One of my biggest pet peeves is when people tell me what I should or shouldn't like which I find ridiculous, since like I said, we all have different tastes.

 I personally will never understand the love for Swan Song or PONR, like those are in my bottom 10 if not bottom 5 of all time.  Which is not to say they are necessarily objectively bad or good or that the acting is bad just that I hate them for various reasons so they weill never be in my top anything list LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

1. In My Time Of Dying
2. Faith
3. Point of No Return
4. What Is And What Should Never Be
5. The End
6. Dark Side of The Moon
7. First Born/The Executioner's Song (I'm cheating here I know, but these bookend each other so I'm counting them as one and I'm sorry I'm not sorry.)
8. Reichenbach
9. Lazarus Rising
10. Appointment In Samarra

I'd say my top five don't change, though their order may, and the bottom five could alternate with 10 or so other episodes on any given day. It's no surprise that most of these feature Dean in a big way, though some of my most favourite Dean moments aren't in any of these episodes, for example his pre-death scene in Do You Believe In Miracles, or the scene with Cole in Girls, Girls, Girls. My favourite Sam episode is The Born-Again Identity, in which I think Jared gave his best performance of the series.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I personally will never understand the love for Swan Song or PONR, like those are in my bottom 10 if not bottom 5 of all time.  Which is not to say they are necessarily objectively bad or good or that the acting is bad just that I hate them for various reasons so they weill never be in my top anything list LOL

And that's what makes this fandom so much fun.  I've actually changed my opinion on a couple of episodes, or at least seen them in a different light due to discussions of different aspects of them.

[bozodegama]

48 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Nice list! In addition to the top 10 we have in common I’d say the bolded ones would be in my top 20.

Good list Wayward.  It’s so hard to do.  It’s like trying to pick out Led Zeppelin or Dylan’s top 10 songs. It’s almost impossible.  I’d probably add Lazarus Rising and take out Swan song.  I’m not a Swan song hater, just love Lazarus more.  And I’d try and add Point of no return (sorry Catrox, i know you hate it but you gotta love the scene where Dean stabs Zachariah at least?) but i wouldn’t know which ones to take out.  

I don’t watch a lot of other tv shows.  Which shows do you guys watch that are better written than Supernatural.  The only other shows that i thought compete with Supernatural for writing are Deadwood, GOT and Stargate sg1. But. Like i said, i don’t watch a lot of tv shows

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Good list Wayward.  It’s so hard to do.  It’s like trying to pick out Led Zeppelin or Dylan’s top 10 songs. It’s almost impossible.  I’d probably add Lazarus Rising and take out Swan song.  I’m not a Swan song hater, just love Lazarus more.  And I’d try and add Point of no return (sorry Catrox, i know you hate it but you gotta love the scene where Dean stabs Zachariah at least?) but i wouldn’t know which ones to take out.  

I don’t watch a lot of other tv shows.  Which shows do you guys watch that are better written than Supernatural.  The only other shows that i thought compete with Supernatural for writing are Deadwood, GOT and Stargate sg1. But. Like i said, i don’t watch a lot of tv shows

Yeah, with nearly 300 episodes picking a top 10 is extremely difficult!

 

In regards to better written shows I would say there are many I could name that are easily better than what we’ve got from season 8 on. Some of those shows would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, X Files, Marvel’s Jessica Jones, The Good Place and Game of Thrones. Some of them admittedly are very new and could decline yet (TGP is only on S2 and only one season of JJ has been released). In the case of Buffy, Angel and the X Files while they had their low periods IMO they’ve never fallen as low as SPN did for me during seasons 8-9. However, I personally would consider s1-5 to be fantastically written television and would only confidentially out Buffy above those seasons. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

And I’d try and add Point of no return (sorry Catrox, i know you hate it but you gotta love the scene where Dean stabs Zachariah at least?

 I can name probably at least one really remarkable scene in every episode of SPN including the episodes that I loathe but they have to be really significant to  overlook the rest of it. Dean killing Zachariah doesn't save the episode for me.  It kind of frustrates me because Dean looked right into Zachariah's face  when he killed him . He didn't have to look away which left me with a false hope that he was still going to be Michael's vessel because how else could he look into angel's grace and not go blind or whatever? But NOPE it was Adam. 

I love Two Minutes to Midnight solely for Dean meeting Death yet I absolutely can't stand the closing scene with Bobby and Dean so that kind of ruins the ep overall so it falls to my top 20 only because of Dean meeting Death.  So I'm funny that way with my rankings.

@gonzosgirrl If I knew I could  bundle eps I would have included Executioner's Song too! Dammit! LOL

[Wayward Son]

A more manageable list for me! My top three episodes for every season. I’m not going to say these are necessarily the best written, but simply the ones which appealed most to a viewer with my interests. 

 

Season 1 

Faith 

Something Wicked 

Pilot (Found it hard to decide between Home and Devil’s Trap but ultimately went for the one that started it all) 

 

Season 2

In My Time of Dying

Houses of the Holy

All Hell Breaks Loose Part 2

 

Season 3 

Jus in Bello 

No Rest for the Wicked

The Kids Are Alright (a bit hesistant about this one but I’ll let it stand for now) 

 

Season 4 

On the Head of a Pin 

Lazarus Rising

In the Beginning 

 

Season 5

The Song Remains the Same

Swan Song

The End

 

Season 6 

The Man Who Would Be King

Appointment in Samarra

And Then There Were None

 

 Season 7

Death’s Door 

Repo Man 

The Girl with the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo

 

Season 8 - I hate this season so these are more “best of a very bad bunch” than episodes I love. 

 

A Little Slice of Kevin

Goodbye Stranger

Hunteri Heroici 

 

Season 9 - Same as season 8. Hate it! 

Road Trip 

First Born 

Meta Fiction 

 

Season 10 

Executioners Song

Inside Man 

The Prisoner 

 

Season 11  - I very reluctantly moved removed baby. 

Just My Imagination

The Vessel 

Safe House 

 

Season 2 

Stick in the Middle With You 

Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets

Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox

 

Ill acknowledge Regarding Dean is probably better written than these, but since we are talking about what appeals to /my/ interests I’ll remove it hah. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

I don’t watch a lot of other tv shows.  Which shows do you guys watch that are better written than Supernatural.  The only other shows that i thought compete with Supernatural for writing are Deadwood, GOT and Stargate sg1. But. Like i said, i don’t watch a lot of tv shows

I think SPN is such a conflicting beast because it can be groundbreaking and amazing and wonderful and then so bad that I think WTF is this crap! LOL And that goes for every showrunner and writing staff. They have all had great and terrible episodes. For me, the one constant that keeps me watching is the acting and chemistry between the characters which more often than not elevates weak storytelling so I'll be pissed about stuff but I come back. Plus at this point I have to see how it ends.

As to other shows (which we could talk about in the smackdown thread in more detail) that I have loved like I do SPN are Angel, BSG, and LOST which are my fave shows all had wonderful and terrible episodes and inconsistent writing but the characters were fantastic and I connected emotionally with those shows.  Objectively, shows like Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Justified, Game of Thrones are better written and I think they are great, but I didn't connect as deeply with the characters emotionally like I do with the others that I've mentioned.

[DittyDotDot]

I always have the hard time of trying to decide if we're voting on our actual favorites or episodes we think are the best in terms of quality. For me, those lists would look almost completely different.

Favorites off the top of my head (no particular order, just the order they popped into my head):

• In My Time of Dying
• Scarecrow
• Hollywood Babylon
• Folsom Prison Blues
• Dream A Little Dream of Me
• Born Under a Bad Sign
• Mystery Spot 
• Bad Day at Black Rock
• It's a Terrible Life
• Hello, Cruel World

My list of best quality (again, off the top of my head, no particular order)

• In My Time of Dying - I always say this is a perfect episodes of Supernatural; writing, directing, acting and everyone were on their game here.
• Faith - Other than the beginning, I don't care for this episode much at all, but I do recognize it as a high-quality episode.
• Lazarus Rising - Big game changer and everyone--writing, directing, acting--rose to the challenge.
• Changing Channels - They took a big chance with this one and it paid off. I wish they'd take more chances these days.
• The End
• The Man Who Would Be King 
• The Greatest Escapist 
• Repo Man
• Nightshifter
• Jus In Bello

 

1 hour ago, bozodegama said:

I don’t watch a lot of other tv shows.  Which shows do you guys watch that are better written than Supernatural.  The only other shows that i thought compete with Supernatural for writing are Deadwood, GOT and Stargate sg1. But. Like i said, i don’t watch a lot of tv shows

Moved to Supernatural Smackdown thread...

Edited January 22, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

always have the hard time of trying to decide if we're voting on our actual favorites or episodes we think are the best in terms of quality. For me, those lists would look almost completely differe

It's all subjective really. Even me saying, objectively about those other shows is probably bot really true either, come to think if it.

For me,my top rankings are a mixture of emotional impact, if the writing is reasonably good (so subjective I guess) with good dialogue, if character or story is moved along, if I think the plotting is reasonably coherent and doesn't force characters to do stupid things to prop other characters. I can tolerate some OOC if the plot explains it well. Vs let's change everything or key aspects to accomplish XYZ plot wise like killing Charlie. I mean the rest of Dark Dynasty was great but then boom Charlie does a totally stupid thing that she wouldn't have done and she ends up murdered, so that pushes the episode down the list for me.

In some other cases, my least favorite eps have some amazing scenes and acting. Like  in Under a Bad Sign. I don't like the quick cuts at the beginning. That is not SPN style of filming so that put me off it right away. Dean not catching on to Sam not being Sam sooner than he did was not explained sufficien8IMO. other hand Jared's work was remarkable as Meg but it was poorly constructed IMO so it was not one I rate overall as good  quality episode. Then we have something like Soul Survivor which was a tremendous episode acting wise for Jensen, but the fact that it was ending demon Dean too quickly for me, makes me struggle with how to rate it. It was wonderfully shot and acting was great but I waffle on it being a fave other than for Jensen's acting.

And that is, for m, why SPN is so hard to make Best of and Worst of lists other than my top 20, and bottom ten, everything in between is  kind of a crap shoot.

Edited January 22, 2018 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

I own the blu-rays of every season up to season 11 (I'll buy 12 if I see in a bargain bin, but the BMOL got right up my nose).  But I tend to watch episodes on Netflix.  They do cut some scenes and not always the classic rock, but it's something to watch when there's not much on TV and easier than putting in a disk.

I tend to have favourite scenes - moreso than favourite episodes.  And with Netflix it's easy to fast forward or rewind. There's some bloody outstanding work in this series, especially the earlier seasons.  The series really doesn't get the respect it deserves.

But I do owe a lot to the episode On the Head of a Pin.  It was my introduction.  I was flipping through channels and stopped at the torture scene with Alistair and Dean.  I thought it must be a movie I was watching - so good was the acting. I became enamoured with Dean Winchester. Anyway, that was before Netflix so I went to Amazon and ordered all the blu-rays.  This was around the middle of season 7.  I've never missed a live episode since and became a card carrying rabid fan.

I often wonder if I'd not seen that rerun episode while cruising channels my life would be different.  I'd be saner for sure and not spend so much time debating, thinking about plot minutia.   LOL

[Jeddah]

Two episodes I really like that never get mentioned in people’s favorites are Shadow and Dead Man’s Blood. Both episodes give a lot of insight into Winchester family dynamics, and I love it. 

I don’t know if those would be in my overall top ten though. It’s so hard to choose! I can barely make a top ten list from just season 1 episodes.

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Two episodes I really like that never get mentioned in people’s favorites are Shadow and Dead Man’s Blood. Both episodes give a lot of insight into Winchester family dynamics, and I love it. 

I don’t know if those would be in my overall top ten though. It’s so hard to choose! I can barely make a top ten list from just season 1 episodes.

Agree with both of these, and yet wouldn't include them on my list. Another is The Benders. It's one of the creepiest and scariest episodes of them all. It also gave us a truly memorable moment that, ironically, seems to be largely forgotten when the topic of Dean's faith in Sam as a strong, capable hunter comes up. When he's forced to decide between Sam and Kathleen as to who they will hunt next, he chooses Sam, knowing he has the best chance to survive.

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

OK, I think I've figured out my top 10

1. All Hell Breaks Loose part 1

2. Lucifer Rising

3. Swan Song

4. The End

5. In My Time of Dying

6. I KNow What YOu Did last Summer

7. In the Beginning

8. Death's Door

9. Fan Fiction

10. Appointment in Samarra

After the top 4, they are subject to change on a daily basis:)  It's just so hard to pick out my absolute faves because I love so many

Hee... and here's your list with an example for me of what you were talking about above. I love your inclusion of "All Hell, pt 1" instead of the more popular "pt 2" (I prefer "All Hell..., pt 1" myself), but I pretty much hate "Lucifer Rising" (by that time I was so over season 4 and just wanted it to go away, and it still bugs me that Sam and Dean never found out about the changed phone message.)

My top 10 - as of now - is a little odd. It's also going to have some newer stuff mainly because it's new while I've seen the old favorites so many times, they are sort of old hat a bit by now.

These are in no particular order:

Mystery Spot

A Very Supernatural Christmas

What is and What Should Never Be

Point of No Return

The Man Who Knew Too Much

Meet the New Boss / Hello Cruel World

Fan Fiction

Don't Call Me Shurley

Safe House (or Baby or Just My Imagination or Into the Mystic - I guess I really liked season 11)

The French Mistake or Changing Channels

Yeah, as you can see... I couldn't quite do it, and I had to leave a bunch of stuff off from season 2, 5, 6, and 7... and a bit from season 10. Interestingly, I found as I was making the list that I had no room for stuff from season 1. Hmm, unexpected. The no room for stuff from season 4, 8, 9, and 12 wasn't, however... well except for "It's a Terrible Life" which I do love, but it just barely fits into that season anyway, in my opinion..

[Wayward Son]

Since others are cheating I’m adding AHBL Part I to my list :) 

[Wayward Son]

Taken from the spoilers thread. Moving here because I am getting into general show discussion. 

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me, that's like saying that Mulder and Scully shouldn't be helping other FBI agents who can't solve a case or who stumble into something unexpected and it's not up their alley.  Dean and Sam are the main characters . Of course they are going to save even other badass characters. I mean that's the show.

IMO there are reasonable and unreasonable ways of handling this. For instance last season Wally told the boys he called them in because he was dealing with a demon and that was way above the pay grade of the creature he dealt with. That to me is a reasonable example of other hunters reaching out for help because the show has always established that Demons are tough to deal with and most hunters aren’t as exposed to them as Sam and Dean become. On the other hand, I find it hard to buy that a seasoned hunter can’t even deal with a simple ghost hunt and would be killed for making as rookie a mistake as entering hostile Territory without the appropriate weaponry. 

 

So basically my point is that yes the boys are the main characters and can help/save other hunters, but if you’re gonna kill then off at least do so in a manner that doesn’t make them look like idiots and make the viewer wonder “geese how did they last twenty years?” 

 

ETA: Yes, I’m aware Wallys story wasn’t entirely true and it was actually Mary who wanted the boy’s help. However, if he had been telling the truth I would have found that an acceptable example of a seasoned hunter still needing help from them. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Wayward Son

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

On the other hand, I find it hard to buy that a seasoned hunter can’t even deal with a simple ghost hunt and would be killed for making as rookie a mistake as entering hostile Territory without the appropriate weaponry. 

I'll be forever miffed that they killed off Annie, who I thought was pretty awesome at first until she was apparently dumber than a box of hair, by committing this idiotic mistake.  I call foul.

[gonzosgirrl]

Repurposing.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Repurposing.

Huh. I would never have guessed. Seriously. That's some good set design that I didn't notice the location. I usually pick up on that stuff. Also, interesting to me that Manny's became Mann 's for Jason Manns and Juanita's became Juan   's which my headcanon was a reference to John.

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, Dean acknowledges that he fucked up. That he shouldn't have lied about things. That he took responsibility for his actions and that doesn't matter because he didn't say he wouldn't save Sam's life in the same situation?

Why do you think Sam made the choice to live in the church? Why do you think Sam did a 180 in his dreamscape, given it seems that you think that's what happened?  Why is Death real in your interpretation but not Dean or Bobby? I'm not being snarky. I'm trying to follow why you think Sam had agency. 

Taken from Bitch vs Jerk. This post is just about outlining my thoughts on what is real and isn’t real and not about Dean’s decision. If our discussion gets into Dean’s decision we can move back there :) 

 

My opinion of what was real and was not real in Sam’s mindscape during I Think I Am Going to Like It Here is based on my interpretation of similar events that occurred before this. In every instance where we’ve been shown what is happening from the perspective of a dying character (Dean In my Time of Dying, Bobby in Death’s Door and Billie in Red Meat) a reaper has appeared to guide the character into the afterlife. Tessa appeared to Dean during IMTOD, a Male reaper whose name I can’t remember off the top of my head appeared to Bobby and Billie appeared to Dean in RM. If we go by that pattern then a reaper should have appeared to Sam as he was dying in ITILIH. However, no one other than the figure claiming to be Death appeared, so I can only conclude that Death was Sam’s personal reaper. What I am open to is the possibility that it was actually a regular reaper posing as Death for some unknown reason. Either way, whether it was Death himself or another figure pretending to be Death, I believe the figure was not just Sam’s subconscious due to the precedence set in similar scenarios before and after this. 

 

In regards to Bobby and Dean IIRC we know the Dean that appeared for most of the episode was not the real Dean as they cut back and forth between scenes in Sam’s head and the actions of the real Dean in the woken world. So we know that figure wasn’t truly Dean. Likewise I don’t view Bobby as real as Im fairly certain Death’s Door established that everything, including Rufus, was a manifestation of Bobby’s memories and only his reaper was real. With that in mind it makes sense that Bobby was only a manifestation of Sam Psyche like Rufus was a part of Bobby’s. Although I’d need to rewatch Deaths Door to be absolutely certain re Rufus and Dean. 

 

So to quickly sum up I believe Death was the real Death, or at least a third party pretending to be him,  based on the established pattern of a reaper always appearing to guide someone dying into the afterlife. I believe Dean wasn’t real (aside from the final scene where Sam said yes to possession) because the episode cut back and forth between Dean in the woken world  and what was happening in Sam’s mind. I’m leaning towards Bobby not being real, but I’d need to rewatch Death’s Door before I 100% commit to that belief. 

[gonzosgirrl]

As far as I can recall, nobody else (who survived) remembered meeting their reaper. 

[Wayward Son]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As far as I can recall, nobody else (who survived) remembered meeting their reaper. 

Did Sam remember seeing Death? I could have sworn he said at the end of 9x01 all he remembered was the angels falling and their conversation in the Church. However, even if I’m wrong the show has since had Dean remember his near death experience talk with Billy. IMO the whole you don’t remember thing is early seasons lore the writers have chosen to ignore in the same way reapers are now angels or Lucifer is now the older brother LOL

 

For me Death being real, or at least it is someone posing as him, makes the most sense. If he wasn’t then that leads me to the big plot hole “where was Sam’s reaper while all of this was going down?” 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

For me Death being real, or at least it is someone posing as him, makes the most sense. If he wasn’t then that leads me to the big plot hole “where was Sam’s reaper while all of this was going down?” 

Sam's reaper didn't come because it wasn't Sam's time yet.

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

wever, even if I’m wrong the show has since had Dean remember his near death experience talk with Billy. IMO the whole you don’t remember thing is early seasons lore the writers have chosen to ignore in the same way reapers are now angels. 

Billie is Death now and she has more power than just being a reaper.  If Billie didn't want Dean to remember what she told him, she could have wiped his memory. 

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's reaper didn't come because it wasn't Sam's time yet.

I don’t understand how it wasn’t Sam’s time, but IMTOD, Advanced Thantology or Red Meat would have been Dean’s. Are you saying Sam would have healed on his own if Dean and Gadreel hadn’t interfered? 

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Billie is Death now and she has more power than just being a reaper.  If Billie didn't want Dean to remember what she told him, she could have wiped his memory. 

She was not Death during Red Meat. According to AT that transition only occurred after her death at Sam’s hand in First Blood. 

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As far as I can recall, nobody else (who survived) remembered meeting their reaper. 

As I recall, Sam didn't really remember either. It was the combination of them poking needles in his brain and Crowley getting him to remember so he would cast Gadreel out. But, the memories were there, just hidden. Just like they were for Dean until Tessa helped him remember. I think that was actually consistent. And, the reason Dean remembered Billie in Advanced Thantology and Red Meat is because Billie wanted him to remember.

ETA: Got sidetracked...However, I've never believed that was actually Death in Sam's head in I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here. I could've been a reaper, I suppose, but the characterization was off for Death and as I recall Julian Richlings confirmed later it wasn't really Death. He didn't say who it actually was or if it was all an illusion, though.

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

According to AT that transition only occurred after her death at Sam’s hand in First Blood. 

I think you mean Cass's hand, not Sam's.

Edited February 3, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've never believed that was actually Death in Sam's head in I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here. I could've been a reaper, I suppose, but the characterization was off for Deathe and as I recall Julian Richlings confirmed later it wasn't really Death. He didn't say who it actually was or if it was all an illusion, though.

I think you mean Cass's hand, not Sam's.

I could have sworn Julian’s comment was more along the lines he wasn’t sure, but he didn’t think it was the real Death. 

And yes I meant Cas. This is what happens when I’m posting at 12.30am. 

[Katy M]

Reapers are a funny business.  When Dean was being Death that day, he didn't show up to anybody until they were actually dead.  Dean and Bobby are the only two (to the best of my recollection) that we've seen reapers having pre-death beckonings.  Realistically speaking, you would think they wouldn't bother.  Why not just wait until they are dead.  Bobby is the ONLY time we have seen one in the head.  Bobby even said he had never heard of that before.  Although, obviously that makes sense because who is going to tell him if they're dead.  But, my long-winded point is that I don't think we can take the absence of another reaper as proof that Death was actually there.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I don’t understand how it wasn’t Sam’s time, but IMTOD, Advanced Thantology or Red Meat would have been Dean’s. Are you saying Sam would have healed on his own if Dean and Gadreel hadn’t interfered? 

You asked why Sam's reaper wouldn't come. I offered an explanation that Sam wasn't really as close to death as was feared so his reaper didn't come yet. Maybe the reaper sensed that Gadreel was there to try and save Sam so it didn't come. 

[catrox14]

This is weird. Netflix has Twigs and Twine and Naomi Banes instead of Twigs and Twines and Tasha Banes. 

That's quite a mistake LOL

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is weird. Netflix has Twigs and Twine and Naomi Banes instead of Twigs and Twines and Tasha Banes. 

That's quite a mistake LOL

That's funny! Sometimes their episode descriptions can be quite...interesting, too. 

[FlickChick]

TNT has the "Pilot" after the end of S11 again. That's unusual, because by this time of the year, TNT has already aired at least portions of the previous season, if not the entire season. I wonder if Netflix has any control over other stations airing recent re-runs. Not that I'm in a hurry to re-watch S12, but it is strange.

[catrox14]

I was rewatching Kids Are Alright..and I just don't see how Ben is Dean's kid.

For me, the "Don't worry, you're off the hook" was sincere. She smiled, she was clearly putting his mind at ease that Ben wasn't his kid even after he expressed some disappointment. She offered up that she had a blood test done to confirm. Maybe the show meant paternity test but I think the intention was for the audience to accept that Dean is not Ben's bio father.  

Additionally, after learning monsters exist, and that Dean hunts, and saved her son from said monsters, and after seeing Dean show disappointment that he wasn't his father, and then offered him to stay, why wouldn't she have told Dean Ben was his son if he was? Heck, if she really wanted Dean to stick around she could have used Ben as the carrot but she didn't.

Even in s5 and s6, Lisa seemed only to know that Sam died saving the world, not that he was Lucifer's vessel. She didn't seem to know about angels either. It seemed to me that the only thing Lisa ever knew was that Dean hunted monsters, and then later she learned about demons because she was possessed, or she did until the mind wipe.

Also, I would think if Dean had any inkling after moving in with Lisa and Ben that he was his bio child, he would have told Lisa and Ben about the bloodlines and potential for angels using him as a vessel. I don't think it was an off screen conversation either, because that's too important to leave off screen.

[Res]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was rewatching Kids Are Alright..and I just don't see how Ben is Dean's kid.

For me, the "Don't worry, you're off the hook" was sincere. She smiled, she was clearly putting his mind at ease that Ben wasn't his kid even after he expressed some disappointment. She offered up that she had a blood test done to confirm. Maybe the show meant paternity test but I think the intention was for the audience to accept that Dean is not Ben's bio father.  

Additionally, after learning monsters exist, and that Dean hunts, and saved her son from said monsters, and after seeing Dean show disappointment that he wasn't his father, and then offered him to stay, why wouldn't she have told Dean Ben was his son if he was? Heck, if she really wanted Dean to stick around she could have used Ben as the carrot but she didn't.

Even in s5 and s6, Lisa seemed only to know that Sam died saving the world, not that he was Lucifer's vessel. She didn't seem to know about angels either. It seemed to me that the only thing Lisa ever knew was that Dean hunted monsters, and then later she learned about demons because she was possessed, or she did until the mind wipe.

Also, I would think if Dean had any inkling after moving in with Lisa and Ben that he was his bio child, he would have told Lisa and Ben about the bloodlines and potential for angels using him as a vessel. I don't think it was an off screen conversation either, because that's too important to leave off screen.

For my part, I totally believe that Dean believed Ben wasn't his bio son.

My problem with the "blood test" done is that she says she hooks up with random guys without a permenant address, like Dean whose blood she apparently never got, so who's to say that she got the other guys blood or that they and Dean didn't have the same blood type? I know most are "who cares, lol!science" but I'm a forensic science teacher and that bugs the heck out of me.

Plus, as a mom, I wouldn't tell the guy who hunts monsters it's his kid, whether he saved me, the kid or the universe, in case either of them get illusions about the kid following in dad's footsteps. 

But mainly it's the blood test that irritates because she didn't have his blood, or whatever, unless she kept "keepsakes" for weeks just in case in which case, EWWWW!

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, Res said:

My problem with the "blood test" done is that she says she hooks up with random guys without a permenant address, like Dean whose blood she apparently never got, so who's to say that she got the other guys blood or that they and Dean didn't have the same blood type? I know most are "who cares, lol!science" but I'm a forensic science teacher and that bugs the heck out of me.

First of all, I don't think she meant just a blood test, so that we would be worried about blood type, but an actual DNA test.  Just because she called it a blood test doesn't make it an error, as real people often speak imprecisely like that. As for whether or not she could find Ben's actual father, we do know she at least took names.  When Dean showed up at her door, the first thing she said was "Dean Winchester.  Wow."  So, three's no reason to think she didn't have a name for the guy she thought was the father.  So, it's not inconceivable that she could and did track him down. and got him to provide a DNA sample for a test.  I've always figured since she was a yoga instructor, which doesn't sound like that great of a paying job, that she was probably getting some child support even if the dad didn't want to be involved.