All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DeeDee79]

I thought that there were a lot of gems in season 10; it's actually my favorite after season 2 because:

• After Dean was cured from being a demon; how were they going to remove the Mark?
• Rowena is introduced! Her interactions with Crowley were gold.
• Cas gets his grace back and makes Metatron human
• Bobby's Heaven!
• The Prisoner and Book of the Damned were great badass Dean eps

I do wish that they would have featured the Stynes a bit longer; they were truly creepy villains especially Jacob. Charlie's death, Cole and the quick resolution of demon Dean were the only low points for me.

[catrox14]

I kind of wish they hadn't deleted this scene. I liked that Ketch blamed Lady SheDead's death on Sam LOL just because it's actually a good villanous lie.  I don't think Hess believed him, but I like this scene.

 

[catrox14]

--Interesting scene with Sam and Jody from a Rock and a Hard Place (which I never remember she was in LOL) .Sam thought Dean was lying to him. I wonder if Sam was starting to figure it out then. Huh.

--I like the deleted scene between Cas and Crowley about both of them being human and both of them kind of denying they liked being human, IMO. And Dean being all Dad LOL

--I like the scene with Crowley, Sam and Dean.  Also...I really love Sam's s9 hair.

[catrox14]

Deleted Scenes from Taxi Driver.

Awww, Dean was praying to Cas and

HOLY SHIT, Benny seemed to be confessing he had fed? That both changes Dean's sacrifice killing him, made Sam right that he would feed. and also made it a lot more clear why Benny didn't want to come back from Purgatory. I don't know if I think it should have been included or not. Hmmm

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Deleted Scenes from Taxi Driver.

Awww, Dean was praying to Cas and

HOLY SHIT, Benny seemed to be confessing he had fed? That both changes Dean's sacrifice killing him, made Sam right that he would feed. and also made it a lot more clear why Benny didn't want to come back from Purgatory. I don't know if I think it should have been included or not. Hmmm

 

 

Definitely one time I'm going with 'if it didn't happen on screen, it isn't canon', lol. But isn't this just one more example of the wishy-washy nature of the writers, leaving it open-ended like that. I'm sure they'd say it was them allowing the viewer to decide, but IMO it's just them riding the fence and trying to appease both sides. I'm glad it never made it to the finished episode.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Definitely one time I'm going with 'if it didn't happen on screen, it isn't canon', lol. But isn't this just one more example of the wishy-washy nature of the writers, leaving it open-ended like that. I'm sure they'd say it was them allowing the viewer to decide, but IMO it's just them riding the fence and trying to appease both sides. I'm glad it never made it to the finished episode.

I don't know that it was a case of leaving it up to the audience, myself. I thought they'd been pretty clear Benny was struggling and wasn't always successful in staying on the straight and narrow before I saw that deleted scene. So when I saw the deleted scene years ago, I felt like it was good they didn't include it--I didn't need it and it would've been repetitive to me. Maybe TPTB thought they had been clear enough and didn't want to beat everyone over the head with it?

Edited September 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know that it was a case of leaving it up to the audience, myself. I thought they'd been pretty clear Benny was struggling and wasn't always successful in staying on the straight and narrow before I saw that deleted scene. So when I saw the deleted scene years ago, I felt like it was good they didn't include it--I didn't need it and it would've been repetitive to me. Maybe TPTB thought they had been clear enough and didn't want to beat everyone over the head with it?

I can't recall anything that made me think Benny had ever 'strayed'. In fact, the opposite seems true to me.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't recall anything that made me think Benny had ever 'strayed'. In fact, the opposite seems true to me.

Oh, see, when Benny called Dean back in Torn and Frayed, I figured if he hadn't strayed, he was on the verge of it. The way he was looking at those people in the park alone made me think Benny was jonesing bad for "fresh" blood and it was only a matter of time before he fell off the wagon. And then his whole demeanor with Dean in Taxi Driver spoke volumes to me.

But then again, from the jump, I always figured Benny wasn't the brother in arms Dean thought him to be. I think we were supposed to question Dean judgement in Benny just as much as we were supposed to question Sam's judgement in Amelia. So, I think Benny was set up to fall off the wagon from the beginning.

[FlickChick]

Not only did he lie about Lady Be Gone, he lied about Sam and Dean being dead when he knew they weren't - yet. Actually, I liked most of Ketch's scenes throughout the season. He was a worthy villain in my book and I thought David Hayden-Jones did a good job with the role. 

[catrox14]

Oh don't get me wrong ,I don't take the stuff from deleted scenes as textual canon. That said someone wrote it and filmed it so at some point in the writing process they had those things in there. I just think it's interesting for the sake of discussion.

[catrox14]

I think Benny was struggling but I don't think he really fell off the wagon and fed on a human. It's not good drama to have him fall off the wagon right before Dean kills him to save Sam because then that means that Dean was ling to let a vampire come back to Earth who had fed.i don't see Dean doing that. But then Sam didn't know and Dean didn't know that Benny wannat going to come back. What they could have done is have Dean tell Benny he can't come back and Benny understanding,BUT that puts Sam into jeopardy because what if Benny wanted to eat Sam because he couldn't help himself. Yeah I'm glad that was left out

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Ah - Season 7.  It's almost like taking a breath of fresh air to start this season on rewatch.  S6 wasn't bad, but even with Sam's hallucinations, at least Sam and Dean are acting like Sam and Dean again.  I like this season for that alone.  And looking forward (okay, this sounds a little creepy) to picking up all the dick jokes I apparently missed the first time through.  Lol.  

[catrox14]

Sigh. I wanted a full episode of Purgatory. Here is a compilation that's like 20 minutes ish...

I love the look on Dean's face when Benny saved Cas. 

'Look at my war buddy saving my BF. I love them both".

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sigh. I wanted a full episode of Purgatory. Here is a compilation that's like 20 minutes ish...

This just makes me sad for the wasted potential. More thoughts later....

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Thanks to @DittyDotDot posting the link to John's journal entries over in the Bitch thread, I found (or rather, re-discovered, since I'd read them all before, but had forgotten a lot of it) this interesting tidbit:

Quote

December 11, 1983 (continued)

Got a few things from the house today… couple of photos, a toy or two the firemen recovered. They saved one of my guns… an antique single action revolver. Won’t really do much damage… but I plan to put it under my pillow tonight just the same.

Wait - was that supposed to be The Colt originally, I wonder?

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wait - was that supposed to be The Colt originally, I wonder?

Hmm? Interesting. It could work with the timeline since Dean left the gun with Mary and Elkins could've gotten it from John after they met, but...I don't know. John said something about thinking the Colt was just a myth in S1 and he wasn't aware that Elkins had had it all along, so I'm not sure it totally works.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hmm? Interesting. It could work with the timeline since Dean left the gun with Mary and Elkins could've gotten it from John after they met, but...I don't know. John said something about thinking the Colt was just a myth in S1 and he wasn't aware that Elkins had had it all along, so I'm not sure it totally works.

But maybe John didn't know that his antique single action revolver was "The Colt" at the time?  

But then, I don't remember the timeline of the Colt very well at all.

[Jeddah]

In "In the Beginning" Dean took the Colt from Elkins, but told him he would leave it at the Campbells in Lawrence. I always assumed Elkins went to Lawrence and got it back, and then he had it until "Dead Man's Blood." Maybe the writers originally intended for the Colt to have been in John and Mary's house all along, but that wasn't what happened on the show.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jeddah

[catrox14]

I don't know how to consider the stuff from John's Journal in the canon of the show. I mean it was never aired like deleted scenes are never aired but they were written and filmed...so are they canon...or....?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I tend to consider deleted scenes canon.  But that's just MO.

[Jeddah]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I tend to consider deleted scenes canon.  But that's just MO.

That's interesting. It never even occurred to me to consider them canon. Sometimes deleted scenes can clarify or go into more detail, and that certainly affects my interpretation. But I've only ever considered what appears in the episodes as aired to be canon.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wait - was that supposed to be The Colt originally, I wonder?

It couldn't possibly have been because Daniel Elkins had it.  I mean, even if you want to assume that the gun didn't get back to Daniel Elkins after In the Beginning, it leaves a huge plot hole as to how Elkins got it back between 1983 and Dead Man's Blood.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

That's interesting. It never even occurred to me to consider them canon. Sometimes deleted scenes can clarify or go into more detail, and that certainly affects my interpretation. But I've only ever considered what appears in the episodes as aired to be canon.

I guess I consider them canon because they were filmed as part of the script - and most times deleted scenes are only deleted because the episode ran too long and had to be cut down.  So, if they'd had enough time, the scenes would have aired and there would be no argument over whether or not they were canon.  If that makes sense.  :)

[Katy M]

I guess my take on deleted scenes is that I will consider them canon as long as nothing else goes against it.  So, in other words, no matter when they are shown, aired scenes override deleted scenes and deleted scenes can not be considered proof of canon-breaking.  But, that's just my opinion.

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I consider them canon because they were filmed as part of the script - and most times deleted scenes are only deleted because the episode ran too long and had to be cut down.  So, if they'd had enough time, the scenes would have aired and there would be no argument over whether or not they were canon.  If that makes sense.  :)

It's usually time, but sometimes there are other reasons, such as not liking the way it came out, or deciding that it didn't fit the show after all.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I guess my take on deleted scenes is that I will consider them canon as long as nothing else goes against it.  So, in other words, no matter when they are shown, aired scenes override deleted scenes and deleted scenes can not be considered proof of canon-breaking.  But, that's just my opinion.

Yeah, I can agree with that.  Not sure I've ever seen a deleted Supernatural scene that actually goes against aired canon though.  There might be.  I just don't remember one.  

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's usually time, but sometimes there are other reasons, such as not liking the way it came out, or deciding that it didn't fit the show after all.

Yeah, I know.  That's why I said "most times".  :)

[catrox14]

Heh. Then I will consider the deleted scene of Cas and Crowley fighting over which one was Dean's boyfriend to be canon.

[Katy M]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I can agree with that.  Not sure I've ever seen a deleted Supernatural scene that actually goes against aired canon though.  There might be.  I just don't remember one.  

I can't really either.  Actually, I don't really remember much of any importance happening in a deleted scene.  Maybe On the Head of a Pin getting confirmation that Uriel did really threaten to kill Sam.  Right after that epi, I was wondering if that was just a guess on Anna's part and we would find out it was something else.  

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Heh. Then I will consider the deleted scene of Cas and Crowley fighting over which one was Dean's boyfriend to be canon.

I'm going to have to look for that. It sounds funny. Do you remember which epi?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I can't really either.  Actually, I don't really remember much of any importance happening in a deleted scene.  Maybe On the Head of a Pin getting confirmation that Uriel did really threaten to kill Sam.  Right after that epi, I was wondering if that was just a guess on Anna's part and we would find out it was something else.  

I'm going to have to look for that. It sounds funny. Do you remember which epi?

It's in the s10 thread. It's a deleted scene from Executioner's Song and it's not played for comedy. It's a discussion of them being there to help save Dean. It's a really interesting scene that has implications that IMO is why it was deleted.

Edited September 26, 2017 by catrox14

[Jeddah]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I consider them canon because they were filmed as part of the script - and most times deleted scenes are only deleted because the episode ran too long and had to be cut down.  So, if they'd had enough time, the scenes would have aired and there would be no argument over whether or not they were canon.  If that makes sense.  :)

That totally makes sense! I guess it's like how Tolkien fans have very strong opinions about whether or not The Silmarillion is canon. And don't even get me started on JK Rowling's website, tweets, interviews, etc.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

That totally makes sense! I guess it's like how Tolkien fans have very strong opinions about whether or not The Silmarillion is canon. And don't even get me started on JK Rowling's website, tweets, interviews, etc.

I'm sure it's worse when there is a book - because then there are the book readers vs. the show or movie only watchers and what each one considers canon.  Yikes!

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But maybe John didn't know that his antique single action revolver was "The Colt" at the time?  

But then, I don't remember the timeline of the Colt very well at all.

Well, maybe not at the time, but it has distinctive markings that after he did learn about the Colt, you'd think he would remember he once owned it. I do think it could work with the timeline, though.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, maybe not at the time, but it has distinctive markings that after he did learn about the Colt, you'd think he would remember he once owned it. I do think it could work with the timeline, though.

That's kind of what I was wondering/thinking.  John remembering the symbols on this antique revolver he used to have could just be something that was never shown onscreen.  Now I'm going to have to dig further into the timeline of that darn Colt on the show.  Lol.  It confuses me.  

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's kind of what I was wondering/thinking.  John remembering the symbols on this antique revolver he used to have could just be something that was never shown onscreen.  Now I'm going to have to dig further into the timeline of that darn Colt on the show.  Lol.  It confuses me.  

Off the top of my head:

• Samuel Colt made it in the 1800s--sorry can't look up the exact date right now, but something about Haley's comet, as I recall. Sam and Dean travel back and borrow the gun from Samuel Colt, but leave the gun on the ground after shooting the Phoenix.
• I don't know how Daniel Elkins got it--I assume Colt gave it to the Elkins who ran the saloon in Sunrise, Wyoming and he passed it down to his decedents, but that's never been shown on screen--but, he had it when Dean traveled back in 1972. He borrowed it to kill Yellow Eyes and told Elkins he could retrieve it from the Campbell's in Lawrence--Elkins said he'd never heard of them, BTW.
• I always assumed Elkins got the gun back from Mary because he had it in S1 again. But, it could be that Mary still had it and John got it after the fire, but didn't realize what he had at that time. John said that Elkins taught him a lot about the job, so maybe John gave it to Elkins--still not realizing what it was. That would put it where it needed to be for the vampires to steal it after they kill Elkins in S1 and the boys to steal it from the vampires. My only quibble here is that I think John would've realized that was the gun he once gave to Elkins, but it minor.
• Then, John trades the Colt to Yellow Eyes in S2, Yellow Eyes gives it to Jake to open the Devil's Gate and the boys get it back when they kill Jake and Dean uses the last bullet when he kills Yellow Eyes.
• Early in S3 Bobby and Ruby "fix" the Colt--or figure out how to make more bullets, anyway. Then Bella steals it in mid-S3, and according to Becky, gives it to Crowley who is Lilith's right-hand. We don't see the Colt again until Crowley gives it back to them in Abandon All Hope where Dean drops it on the ground after he tries to kill the Devil with it,
• Crowley retrieves it at some point and gives it to Ramiel as a gift after Swan Song. That's where it's been until Mary stole it in S12 and gave it to the Brits. The Brits give it to Sam and Dean to kill Dagon, but Cass steals it and Dagon melts it into pieces. I'm drawing a blank right now, did they fix it at the end of the season?

So, that's the basic timeline and I think it could work that was the Colt that's detailed in those diary entries...I like it!

Edited September 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

amuel Colt made it in the 1800s-

"Back in 1835 Samuel Colt made a gun."

 

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always assumed Elkins got the gun back from Mary because he had it in S1 again. But, it could be that Mary still had it and John got it after the fire, but didn't realize what he had at that time. John said that Elkins taught him a lot about the job, so maybe John gave it to Elkins--still not realizing what it was.

See, that doesn't make sense to me, because then why would John not know that Elkins had it?

 

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

did they fix it at the end of the season

No.

[catrox14]

I'm going with Mary had the Colt until she quit hunting and then gave it back to Elkins, who had it until the vampires stole it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

29 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always assumed Elkins got the gun back from Mary because he had it in S1 again. But, it could be that Mary still had it and John got it after the fire, but didn't realize what he had at that time. John said that Elkins taught him a lot about the job, so maybe John gave it to Elkins--still not realizing what it was. That would put it where it needed to be for the vampires to steal it after they kill Elkins in S1 and the boys to steal it from the vampires. My only quibble here is that I think John would've realized that was the gun he once gave to Elkins, but it minor.

Supernatural wiki does say that Elkins taught John a lot about hunting, but they parted on bad terms.  Maybe the bad terms were that Elkins refused to give the gun back or lied and said he lost it when John showed it to him?

There's also this from the Dead Man's Blood transcript:

Quote

JOHN
We had a... we had kind of a falling out. I hadn't seen him in years. (gesturing to the envelope) I should look at that. (He opens it) 'If you're reading this, I'm already dead'... that son of a bitch.
 

DEAN
What is it?
 

JOHN
He had it the whole time. 

Which makes me lean further to the 'he lied to John' side.  

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, that's the basic timeline and I think it could work that was the Colt that's detailed in those diary entries...I like it!

Thanks for outlining the Colt's history on the show so succinctly.  I was reading the Supernatural wiki, but it's a lot to take in.  I like it too!

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Supernatural wiki does say that Elkins taught John a lot about hunting, but they parted on bad terms.  Maybe the bad terms were that Elkins refused to give the gun back or lied and said he lost it when John showed it to him?

Considering how John seemed to have a falling out with just about everyone, I always assumed their falling out was probably due to John somehow more than anything, but it could be their falling out was over the gun. I really don't know. It does set up an interesting mystery, though.

[DittyDotDot]

From the S07.E09: How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters thread...

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Overall, I really like this episode (Bambi's mother line aside - still think that was wrong).  Some great secondary characters: Ranger Rick and Brandon the waiter.  Brandon was hilarious.  Big Bird, Ken Doll, and Creepy Uncle.  So accurate.  :)  Great stoned Dean.  The TDK slammer in the foil swan.  The first (I remember seeing) of The Rise of Dick.  Until the end, of course.  But then first time through, I figured Bobby would be okay.  And I was not very emotionally invested with Bobby back then either, so it didn't bother quite as much.  I like him much better in retrospect, and I think my affection for him has grown through subsequent years.  

Yeah, I figured Bobby would be just fine too on my first watch--rolled my eyes really hard at the bullet-holed trucker hat thinking they were overplaying the drama a bit too much.

The funny thing is I wasn't bothered by them killing Bobby back in the day. I mean, I loved him and was very emotionally invested in the character, but I felt like he'd had a good run and they did his character justice, gave him a good and fitting death and his death served the story moving forward. Plus, it's Supernatural, so I knew he could always come back here and there. But, I really disliked that they brought him back as a ghost--and so quickly--only to kill him again. I felt it was such a disservice to all the service they had given when he died.

I was okay with Cass' death at the start of S7 too because I knew it wasn't the last we would see of Cass and I felt like they had done his power-grab arc service by giving him a serious consequence. And, I was okay with them keeping him dead as long as they did because we needed to feel his absence and really miss him for his reappearance to feel earned. But, once again, I felt like they botched the reappearance by over-packing that episode which did disservice to what they had spent all season building up.

I was really not okay with Kevin's death at the time even though it was the one thing in S9 that made perfect sense to me. From the moment Dean told Kevin he was family, I knew it was only a matter of time before he'd be dead, but I was hoping they'd at least give him a meaty buildup and do his character justice before they killed him off. So much wasted potential with Kevin that his death just didn't feel earned to me in the end.

And then you look at a character like Charlie, who I was lukewarm on to begin with, and all I could think of was what a crock of shit her death was. They turned her into the biggest dumbass of all time and dumped her in a bathtub just so Dean could go on a rampage the next episode. Like Sam lying and sneaking around behind Dean's back wouldn't have been enough to push Dean over that ledge he'd been hanging on to for months...BLECH!!

Don't even get me started on the stupidity of what they did with Rowena... .

So, to get to my point--apparently not only Cass uses Zen Navigation ;)--I don't actually mind they kill off a character I love as long as it serves story and they do it well.

Edited September 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

I wonder if anybody did a compilation of Samelia flashbacks *snorts* because those scenes sure felt like a lot longer than 20 minutes apiece let alone combined. I'm still not sure what they thought they were doing with that character, she was wholly unlikable to me. I kept waiting for the reveal that she wasn't real and a product of Sam's imagination while he was in a psych ward or the reveal that she was some kind of witch or succubus.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, to get to my point--apparently not only Cass uses Zen Navigation ;)--I don't actually mind they kill off a character I love as long as it serves story and they do it well.

Huh.  You know, I was thinking last night, as I was writing up my thoughts on How to Win Friends, about all the characters introduced in S7 (Kevin, Charlie, Frank, there's probably more I don't remember) and all their subsequent deaths.  I'd actually prefer that they didn't kill off any characters to whom I've gotten attached (what do you mean they can't read my mind?) but some deaths bother me more than others.  The ones that bother me more were ones I think were wasted potential, like Frank in particular.  They brought him in to fill a particular need and then wiped him out when they were done.  I don't like that.  He was such a great character.  Maybe if he hadn't been so well developed, it wouldn't have bothered me as much.  But then there's Lucifer, who's been around longer than Frank, and I don't think is as well developed.  It's strange.  I also agree with you about Kevin - poor kid.  It kind of ticks me off when I think about how they treated that character.  And Roweena's death was not fitting at all for her character (which is why I hope she comes back.)  I also agree with you about Charlie.  It's not that I mind that they killed her off, because she used to seriously get on my nerves, but it's the way it was done that was awful.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

or the reveal that she was some kind of witch or succubus.

Lol!  I would have loved that.  Seriously, that would have been even better than a hallucination, since we'd had Sam hallucinating Lucifer the prior season.  A succubus would have been great.

I might have to make it my new headcannon that she was a succubus, and when Sam left she just went back to her 'husband' to feed.  It makes so much more sense than what we saw.  

[Jeddah]

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Roweena's death was not fitting at all for her character (which is why I hope she comes back.)  I also agree with you about Charlie.  It's not that I mind that they killed her off, because she used to seriously get on my nerves, but it's the way it was done that was awful.  

Then there was Eileen's horrible death. Hmmm, I wonder what those three characters have in common?

Edited September 29, 2017 by Jeddah

[auntvi]

11 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Then there was Eileen's horrible death. Hmmm, I wonder what those three characters have in common?

I think that one is the worst so far. Not only did they kill her off, but the special effects with a stuffed dummy tossed around were so bad it was laughable. I felt bad for the actress.

Edited September 29, 2017 by auntvi

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Then there was Eileen's horrible death. Hmmm, I wonder what those three characters have in common?

Well, as I mentioned, Kevin's death was an issue for me too, and I also agree with @RulerofallIsurvey about the pointlessness of Frank's death, so I don't think it's a gender issue here. They have screwed up both male and female deaths, IMO. 

51 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But then there's Lucifer, who's been around longer than Frank, and I don't think is as well developed.  It's strange.

I think the problem with Lucifer is, his story was told and done and now they're just hanging on to the character to fill up space. That's how I also felt about Crowley in the end, too, but at least I still did have some affection for the character. Lucifer, not so much. 

[Jeddah]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, as I mentioned, Kevin's death was an issue for me too, and I also agree with @RulerofallIsurvey about the pointlessness of Frank's death, so I don't think it's a gender issue here. They have screwed up both male and female deaths, IMO. 

I think the problem with Lucifer is, his story was told and done and now they're just hanging on to the character to fill up space. That's how I also felt about Crowley in the end, too, but at least I still did have some affection for the character. Lucifer, not so much. 

I feel like by having Eileen write a letter right before she dies in which she worries about seeming "girly" makes it a gender issue.  

Crowley got to sacrifice himself in a dramatic way. Rowena was just a charred body. Frank got "Bad Moon Rising," an incredibly iconic song for this show, played for him. Charlie gets killed in a bathtub. Kevin's death at least drove the action of the show going forward, and he's mentioned many times after. The show makes it clear that he gets to be happy in death; first as a ghost with his mom, and then in Heaven after leaving the veil. Eileen ran terrified through the woods chased by a hell hound she could neither see nor hear, then tossed around violently. Hell hounds drag people to hell, so presumbably she didn't get to Heaven. I'll be very surprised if Eileen ever gets mentioned again.

I know it's a part of the show that there's gore and violence. The stakes are always going to be high on this show, so characters die. I hate when they kill off characters of any gender. But to me there's a big difference in how the deaths of male and female characters happen on the show.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I feel like by having Eileen write a letter right before she dies in which she worries about seeming "girly" makes it a gender issue.  

Crowley got to sacrifice himself in a dramatic way. Rowena was just a charred body. Frank got "Bad Moon Rising," an incredibly iconic song for this show, played for him. Charlie gets killed in a bathtub. Kevin's death at least drove the action of the show going forward, and he's mentioned many times after. The show makes it clear that he gets to be happy in death; first as a ghost with his mom, and then in Heaven after leaving the veil. Eileen ran terrified through the woods chased by a hell hound she could neither see nor hear, then tossed around violently. Hell hounds drag people to hell, so presumbably she didn't get to Heaven. I'll be very surprised if Eileen ever gets mentioned again.

I know it's a part of the show that there's gore and violence. The stakes are always going to be high on this show, so characters die. I hate when they kill off characters of any gender. But to me there's a big difference in how the deaths of male and female characters happen on the show.

I think Singer/Buck Lemming have a twisted notion that the more gruesome and awful and powerless a female character's death is, the more sorry we feel for them and the boys.  IMO, that's Singer/Buck Lemming and their 70s/80s mentality of writing female characters along with the "strong female character" cliches. What I don't think they understand is that not acceptable these days. It's archaic writing and bad storytelling.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Hell hounds drag people to hell, so presumbably she didn't get to Heaven. I'll be very surprised if Eileen ever gets mentioned again.

Oh gods. I never thought about this. I would think a reaper would intervene because Eileen didn't make a deal so she shouldn't go to Hell just because a hell hound killed her. Did the dude that got killed by Ramsey go to Hell? I wouldn't think so. I don't think Jo went to Hell from being mortally wounded by a hellhound.

Edited September 29, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I feel like by having Eileen write a letter right before she dies in which she worries about seeming "girly" makes it a gender issue.  

Crowley got to sacrifice himself in a dramatic way. Rowena was just a charred body. Frank got "Bad Moon Rising," an incredibly iconic song for this show, played for him. Charlie gets killed in a bathtub. Kevin's death at least drove the action of the show going forward, and he's mentioned many times after. The show makes it clear that he gets to be happy in death; first as a ghost with his mom, and then in Heaven after leaving the veil. Eileen ran terrified through the woods chased by a hell hound she could neither see nor hear, then tossed around violently. Hell hounds drag people to hell, so presumbably she didn't get to Heaven. I'll be very surprised if Eileen ever gets mentioned again.

I know it's a part of the show that there's gore and violence. The stakes are always going to be high on this show, so characters die. I hate when they kill off characters of any gender. But to me there's a big difference in how the deaths of male and female characters happen on the show.

It's a valid argument, but I think there is more to it. For instance, I think Crowley was a major character in comparison to Rowena, so they gave Crowley the big sacrificing death and shortcut Rowena's. I would say the same thing about Kevin vs. Eileen, too. I think it would've went the same way for Kevin if he'd been female and Eileen if she'd been male, myself. I'd say Charlie and Frank's deaths were on par, though. They were both minor characters the show felt they could ditch for shock value. Frank got Bad Moon Rising and Charlie got a pyre scene and lots of mourning from Sam and Dean. But don't forget that Jo and Ellen also had big sacrificing deaths while Rufus was brutally killed by a worm...so to speak.

I don't disagree it's a bad optic, but I also think it's an optical illusion that it has little-to-anything to do with gender due to the fact we've had so very few major female characters in comparison to male ones. But, again, I don't think that's because the show hates women, but because the fans tend to be very hard on female characters--and the actresses--in comparison so the show tends to keep it more male. I love them to be less chicken shit about this myself, but I also don't have to deal with the onslaught of complaints day in and day out.

48 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Hell hounds drag people to hell, so presumbably she didn't get to Heaven.

I think hellhounds drag people who have made deals to Hell. As long as she hadn't already made a deal for her soul, I suspect she got a reaper and a choice just like everyone else. So I don't think that automatically means Eileen is in Hell.

Edited September 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh gods. I never thought about this. I would think a reaper would intervene because Eileen didn't make a deal so she shouldn't go to Hell just because a hell hound killed her. Did the dude that got killed by Ramsey go to Hell? I wouldn't think so. I don't think Jo went to Hell from being mortally wounded by a hellhound.

Hard to say about anybody else, but I wouldn't think Jo would have been dragged to Hell because the hell hound didn't kill her all the way.  She died later, nowhere near (depending on your definition) of a Hell Hound.  I preferred Hell Hounds pre -season 5, when all they did was go after dealmakers.  I kind of feel like Abandon All Hope ret-conned them, and not in a good way.  I mean seriously, demons have these invisible animals that will do their bidding and they actually bother to try to kill people themselves?  Why?

And, as for the original topic, if you make a deal, but don't make it to the ten years so die by some other method then hell hound, you still go to Hell. So, I would say the deal was the important part, not the Hell Hound.  They may not technically do any dragging.  Just kill and nature or reapers or whatever takes care of the rest.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

'd say Charlie and Frank's deaths were on par, though.

I don't see them as comparable at all.  Charlie wasn't a minor character. She was in 8 episodes, with major screen time in the those episodes, and the boys considered her family. Frank was in 6 episodes as an occasional ally who had one advisory chat with Dean.

Frank and Charlie were both genius hackers but one wasn't dumbed down to bring on his own death like Charlie was. And really, it's not known if Frank is even dead. It's presumed but no body was ever shown.  Charlie behaved totally out of character, was being petty with Rowena and left a blind open so the Stynes could see her. Then she was sliced and diced and left in a bathtub for Dean and Sam to find all to further Dean's rage against the Stynes which wasn't necessary because Dean was going to kill them anyway after they broke into the bunker. 

[Jeddah]

It's similar to how there have been lots of demons trapped under devil's traps, burned with holy water, exorcized, etc. Somehow it was only female demons (Ruby and Meg) who were tied down and tortured while naked.

I do agree that Jo and Ellen got a good, heroic sendoff.

I hope all of you are right about the hell hounds, and that Eileen isn't in Hell!