All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[auntvi]

Off on a tangent:

 

CAIN
Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell.
Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier of Hell -- a knight. [my emphasis]

 

In ep. 10.23, it didn't make any sense to me that Death told Dean that he must kill his brother Sam himself in order to make the deal. Now it makes some sense to me (even if I don't like it): it parallels Cain's deal with Lucifer to save his brother. Cain & Abel, Dean & Sam. Dean wasn't trying to prevent Lucifer from taking Sam, but he was trying to protect him from the effects of the MoC.

[catrox14]

Off on a tangent:

 

 

In ep. 10.23, it didn't make any sense to me that Death told Dean that he must kill his brother Sam himself in order to make the deal. Now it makes some sense to me (even if I don't like it): it parallels Cain's deal with Lucifer to save his brother. Cain & Abel, Dean & Sam. Dean wasn't trying to prevent Lucifer from taking Sam, but he was trying to protect him from the effects of the MoC.

 

 

Eh, I can see the parallel they were maybe going for, but that still doesn't really work for me either because that is not why Death said Sam had to die. Death's rational was that Sam would continue to look for a solution to the Mark. Dean would never have killed Sam if Death hadn't made it a condition of Dean's trip to Outer Space or was Death talking about the Empty?

 

Which BTW, did Dean tell Death that Sam was looking for a cure? How did Death know this was the case? If Death knew Sam was doing that why didn't he just kill Sam himself? What's the point of having Dean do it? Oh Right Death is stupid now.

 

Bah. I hate that whole ending. So dumb.

[Omegamom]

I still think they should have followed through with what Cain said would happen in "Executioner's Song". Supernatural fans are tough. The boys have been killed off before.

Having Dean kill Crowley and Cas, and maybe even Sam -- that would have (a) fulfilled all the parallels that Cain was prophesying, (b) made the ending fit with the rest of the season, and © provided two good jump-off points for S11, to wit, Dean fighting overwhelming guilt and pain and trying to find a way to get Sam and Cas back. But, no. They wimped out. (And Death and Charlie would still be alive, and we wouldn't have memories of just how damn stupid their deaths were.)

I personally think that was the game plan until someone high up freaked out at some point after filming ES, which would explain the abrupt change in direction a few episodes after that.

I mean, really, how biblical would that have been?!

Oh, well.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Omegamom

[SueB]

 

That's why I consider the meet and greets more like hear say rather than fact. It's generally someone's "report" of how they remembered it.

 

Well since he was looking right at me and talking directly to me because it was my question, it's not technically hearsay for me... BUT, I get your point that memory can be troublesome. That's why I went all the way back to the August post I wrote up.  I tried to be very careful about writing what he said and putting my opinions in italics to help remove bias.  Could I have missed something?  Sure.  As you said, they don't allow recording devices or note taking. But just like Fangasm's reports, I only spoke about the question I asked and the one that Fangasm asked that was a play off of a question I asked Jared. So, I was comfortable I was well within the rules. As for accuracy, I guess I feel I got it right because I was so surprised what he said.  And honestly, the moment is kinda burned into my brain. I later spoke with Lynn from Fangasm and she said Jensen told her a similar thing as well in a previous convention. 

 

 

That's a huge piece of info about the show and only a certain number of people are allowed to hear it?  Gee, great way to treat your fans who are nowhere near conventions or can't afford the meet and greets, show.

 

That's why I called it an EPIC FAIL.  Because the answers from conventions might be useful for putting little finishing touches on performances and non-verbals, but this was a freakin' PLOT POINT.

 

Which makes me wonder... Jensen was really quite clear about it and left no room for interpretation.  And he gave Lynn a similar answer before.  He's a very smart man.  I was actually originally horrified I might have insulted him by not understanding his acting.  Now I'm wondering (since this was not the first time he was asked), if he was being firm because this was his way of letting me (and others) know that there was a more complicated story going on for Dean than what most understood. I'd ask for a clarification at the M&G in 3 weeks (presuming I get in), but I feel like I'd be digging a deeper hole. 

 

But back to the topic:

- I'm looking thru the transcripts and nowhere (thus far) does it say Dean has to die to turn into a demon. Instead it's all about the Mark turning him Bad.  I figured "psycho rage monster" at the time but Dean also kept saying he didn't want to be "that thing" (i.e. that demon).

- And not letting Dean be a demon (specifically a demon) was Sam's focus.

- The Cain thing about relapse and remission.  Again, I presumed it was about "psycho rage monster" because Cain was both a calm demon and a psycho demon.  So it seemed more about killing instinct.  BUT... if the killing instinct came from the effect the Mark had on Dean's soul... then I could see how it might have been twisting him again. He hadn't gone back to demon state, but I could see that being the direction the Mark was taking him.

- At the end of the day, I'll give a weird analogy but one that makes sense to me: the first time you have a baby, you're body take a long time to "show" and there are a lot of permanent changes (your hips now fit "women's" cut, not "misses"). After you get your body back-ish, when you get pregnant again, BOOM...your belly pops out MUCH earlier.  It's like the body knows "oh hey, I've done this, I know how to respond to these hormones".  In this case, I'm suggesting that once Dean's soul had been twisted into demon-shape, it was ready to pop back there if sufficiently stimulated.  And Dean wouldn't have to die this time.  Notice also, there was no nausea associated with not killing.  Maybe it was because the Blade wasn't around, or maybe because something permanent had changed in Dean and denying the bloodlust didn't make him puke anymore.

 

IDK. I just know I think they should have made it clear whether or not Dean had to die to become a demon. And if he didn't, then the last half-dozen episodes both make a little more sense, Sam's sense of urgency makes more sense, and it's kinda pissed me off (because we should have unambiguously HAD that knowledge).     

Edited March 8, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

- I'm looking thru the transcripts and nowhere (thus far) does it say Dean has to die to turn into a demon. Instead it's all about the Mark turning him Bad.  I figured "psycho rage monster" at the time but Dean also kept saying he didn't want to be "that thing" (i.e. that demon).

 

It may not have specifically said Dean had to die but considering all the following points, I think it was  strongly implied that death was needed for him to become a demon again. Or at least I think it's a reasonable conclusion for the audience to reach.

 

-- If Cain was human when he tried to kill himself then he became a demon at that point. 

-- Cas and Sam both saying that if Dean died he would come back with black eyes

-- Dean himself saying that if the Stynes killed him he would just come back as a demon

 

I took Dean saying he didn't want to be that thing again was if he died he didn't want to come back as a demon should he die, not that he thought he was becoming a demon all along

Edited March 8, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

All excellent points.  I feel better. Thanks!

[AwesomO4000]

I kinda liked SueB's way. It makes Sam look less... foolish or reckless maybe?

[catrox14]

I kinda liked SueB's way. It makes Sam look less... foolish or reckless maybe?

 

Oh I agree. Sadly, I think the show failed to match my personal head!Canon, SueB's or Jensen's for that matter. :(.  LOL.

 

Heh, I now have a new personal head!canon that Jensen decided to play Dean as though he was reverting to being a demon, as a big ole fuck you to Carver for dispatching demon!Dean so quickly.

[shang yiet]

 It seemed to me that the narrative wanted to have its cake and eat it, too, by both not having Dean appear to be too out of control even near the end, since he had a rational plan* while at the same time having Sam supposedly needing a really urgent plan to save Dean before he supposedly got out of control. In the end, it seemed sort of muddled and more like Sam and Castiel were over reacting.

 

And then the "Oh, see what they did now" consequence of starting another apocalypse also kind of made it look like Sam and Castiel screwed up rather than "saved" Dean... but after so many years with this show I guess I should be used to this show giving poor Sam crappy results even when he supposedly does do the right thing

 

.Yep, either it's Sam's fault for worrying too much about Dean and not 'trusting' him or it's Sam's fault for not keeping an eye on Dean 24/7 and 'letting' him be in dangerous situations. Either way, he is wrong.

[Demented Daisy]

I kinda liked SueB's way. It makes Sam look less... foolish or reckless maybe?

 

I never thought that Sam looked foolish or reckless until he specifically said that he didn't care what the repercussions were.  Dean was getting worse (much, much worse) and they had no way of stopping him.  They had to remove the Mark, demon or no demon.  There was no question in my mind.  Take that one line out and I doubt anyone would have questioned Sam's actions.

 

Though, that line showed Sam's desperation.  And desperate Winchesters don't always think clearly.  It should have been Cas' job to talk Sam down, but he didn't.  Rowena didn't care; I expected she only wanted the book and codex.  Not sure why Crowley agreed to the plan.  Residual feelings for Dean?  Fear that Dean would eventually usurp his throne?  I can't remember.

 

Long story short (too late), Sam was a bit reckless there at the end -- but weren't they all?

[SueB]

Crowley agreed to it after he heard the spell ingredients. Specifically 'something Rowena loves'. He had already gotten tipped off to the existence of Oskar by Ollivette the hamster. The spell gave him the perfect opportunity to emotionally damage the mother who never loved him. And it removed Dean as a threat (because psycho Dean was an issue for Crowley). Win-Win.

[DittyDotDot]

Long story short (too late), Sam was a bit reckless there at the end -- but weren't they all?

 

What would a Winchester be without a little wreck? ;)

 

 

Crowley agreed to it after he heard the spell ingredients. Specifically 'something Rowena loves'. He had already gotten tipped off to the existence of Oskar by Ollivette the hamster. The spell gave him the perfect opportunity to emotionally damage the mother who never loved him. And it removed Dean as a threat (because psycho Dean was an issue for Crowley). Win-Win.

 

I agree on the screw you to Rowena, but I always figured Crowley needed the Mark removed so he could remove Dean. The Mark was keeping Dean alive and I still think Crowley wants Dean dead for making him look foolish in front of his minions.

[catrox14]

I'm convinced Crowley was in love with Dean. He turned Dean into a demon to have his companionship for all eternity.  He had some warped plan that he could have a bromance/romance with the most powerful demon in the land and together they would rule Hell. But then Dean being Dean even as demon!Dean he made his own choices.

 

Dean broke Crowley's teeny tiny demony little heart.  And welp, Hell hath no fury like a lovesick Crowley scorned.

 

I'm really surprised at the beginning of the season that Crowley didn't spend more time trying to kill Dean dead.  

Edited March 8, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

They had to remove the Mark, demon or no demon.  There was no question in my mind.  Take that one line out and I doubt anyone would have questioned Sam's actions.

 

I did, all the way. Sure, Dean acted non-Dean-like but he wasn`t remotely at a point where I thought using that Book of the Damned was a good idea. During Season 10, I`d give Season 10 MOC!Dean a 2.5 on the evil scale, if 1 was the lowpoint and 10 was the highpoint. 

 

To me, the execution was such that I figured using spells from the book was way worse than current-Dean. I get that they were going for "the situation is dire and we must act NOW". But for that to happen, I needed to be convinced the problem was so immediate, any solution was better than nothing. That didn`t happen. Let alone that I came away with thinking the solution was more dire and problematic than the problem.

 

As for him becoming a demon again, if noone verbalized it as exposition on the show, I don`t count it. I saw Dean needing to die to become a demon the first time so I never thought he would become one without it in the second go. If anyone on the show wanted to say something else, they had 20 episodes during Season 10 to do so. I don`t blame Jensen or anything. Him coming up with a baseline to act on if the writing gives him nothing concrete because once again the writers couldn`t be bothered with his storyline - hello Season 11, too - is quite admirable. But he didn`t write the scripts so he couldn`t make that call.  

Edited March 8, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I'm actually going to defend Sam a bit on the consequences point. He's not wrong. No one could tell him with certainty what would happen.  But what really helps me reconsider Sam's viewpoint in s10, is the bolded part.

 

 

CASTIEL Nothing.  It's -- it's just if she removes the Mark using "The Book of the Damned"...
What of the consequences?
SAM: Which are what?
CASTIEL: Dean said –

SAM (loudly): Dean guessed! (Sam takes a breath and exhales loudly (huffs))
Cas, What are we supposed to do, huh? Just sit on our asses, do nothing?
CASTIEL: No. We find Dean. (raising his voice)
SAM (loudly): And then what?! The only thing that stopped Cain was death. Do you want to kill Dean? Because  I don't.  And the only way I know how to save my brother is to cure the Mark.
And, yes, I know there will be consequences, but not you, not Dean, not anybody can tell me what those consequences are.
So I'm not gonna let my brother d-destroy himself on a guess.
We save Dean.

 

 

To me, Cain's death was the most cogent argument for why Sam had become desperate enough to resort allying with Rowena. And getting Charlie involved. That line of dialogue makes it seem like Sam had been considering killing Dean all along. Yet, I can't remember this being addressed explicitly or in the subtext at all, especially once Dean asked Cas to kill him or shoot him into the sun because Dean didn't think Sam would ever do it or let Cas do it. 

 

I find it almost impossible to believe that they didn't have this in mind long before the finale. And if they didn't..why invoke it in the finale? The only thing they did was remind everyone that they had to Save Dean from the Mark but Sam killing Dean never seemed to be on the table or a though bubble over Sam's head.

Edited March 8, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

But why was it necessary to basically do it right this instant? Fire and brimstone didn`t rain from the heavens, People weren`t disintegrating in the streets. There was time to research more. And yeah, noone would come down from the sky and tell them what the consequences were. Well, okay, even that happened and got ignored. Or maybe, technically Death didn`t come from the sky. But my point is simply: there was time. From the level of urgency they were setting up with Dean`s situation, I would say they had at least 3-6 MONTHS more of researching the Book of the Damned.    

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know, Sam had been researching all season and came up with bupkiss, so I can see why he was pushing for the only thing he found.

 

I didn't fault Sam for trying to so save Dean, but wasn't too keen on the sneaking around and lying about it to Dean or his attitude of "damn the consequences." He should've just been honest with Dean what he was working on and if Charlie and Cass chose to help, the more the better. I just think they both should've learned by now nothing good comes from the secrets and lies. And, I think they should've learned by now to read the fine print and know what it is they are getting themselves into before they jump in.

 

So, yeah, I saw the urgency, but just thought the way he went about it was foolish. But hey, if they didn't do something foolish at least once a season, I probably wouldn't know what show I was watching.

[catrox14]

But why was it necessary to basically do it right this instant? Fire and brimstone didn`t rain from the heavens, People weren`t disintegrating in the streets. There was time to research more. And yeah, noone would come down from the sky and tell them what the consequences were. Well, okay, even that happened and got ignored. Or maybe, technically Death didn`t come from the sky. But my point is simply: there was time. From the level of urgency they were setting up with Dean`s situation, I would say they had at least 3-6 MONTHS more of researching the Book of the Damned.    

 

 

Oh I agree that Sam's urgency doesn't make much sense unless we factor in the idea that killing Dean had been an option in the back of Sam's mind. My point was more that I could have better understood and been more sympathetic to Sam's urgency IF they had dropped the Cain line before the finale.  

 

I can fanwank that if Sam was already considering the option, learning that the book was calling to Dean might have just freaked him out and his fear of Dean and for Dean gets the better of him.  He engages Rowena and calls on Charlie. Then when Charlie is killed and Dean tells Sam he wished it was Sam instead of Charlie then Dean kills the Stynes, and nearly kills Cas, that fuels Sam's fears even more.

 

But again that's just a fanwank applied retroactively since they did not show or even tell us that until the finale.

 

I can attribute Sam's urgency in the finale to an underlying fear that he might have to find a way to kill Dean sooner rather than later based on Dean's behavior at the end of the season. But that's the only urgency I can understand. 

 

Sam still had time to stop the proceedings once he did learn the consequences....that's something I cannot defend on any level. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

I can attribute Sam's urgency in the finale

 

I can pretty much only attribute it to the Finale. As in "oh, it`s episode 23 now, time to do something". Granted, that is their approach almost every year but they can`t expect viewers not to get totally taken out of a story if those are obvious reasons for the narrative. If I was properly engaged as a viewer, I shouldn`t think about watching only a TV show, that this is the Season Finale and for that reason alone, the characters run around like headless chicken now. They had time to bore me with side cases for many hours before that. Then, it wasn`t urgent. But then I look at the show and think the characters themselves know it`s the Season Finale and that`s why they do what they do.   

 

When Sam made the "you will never hear me say you are anything but good" speech, all I could think was "I could lend you a copy of the Purge if you misplaced yours". Like, it wasn`t a meta episode but I still felt like there was no fourth wall anymore. 

[ahrtee]

I can't say the urgency was *only* because of the finale, because Sam also did the "has to be done right now, can't wait for Dean" thing this season; (sorry, I haven't been able to remember which ep is which since about season 7).  Anyway, when Rowena said "you have to come *right now* to see Lucifer in the cage," he didn't stop then to ask "what's the rush" or think, "maybe I should wait till Dean gets here" (and I don't think that was just because he knew Dean would say no...)  (Of course, I think that was the mid-season finale, so maybe there is something to the finale theory after all...)

 

Anyway, I think they've been writing Sam as going off without thinking things through for a while now. Maybe we can chalk it up to Sam's increasing desperation, feeling things zooming out of control, and without someone (Dean, Cas, Bobby) to tell him to breathe and think about it; but the truth is, he's always done what he thinks he should, whether it makes sense or not (which is why he keeps getting into trouble in the first place.)  The only times I remember him stopping and being rational and waiting to work things out is when *Dean* suggests jumping in feet-first.  (Which, I also have to point out, didn't mean that Dean was right, either.)  

 

I think what I'm trying to say is, it doesn't seem to work out when *either* of them just dives in without hearing the other's viewpoint, even if they don't agree with it.  They need to work together as a team, balancing each other and stopping them from going off half-cocked, and maybe it's time they both recognized that.  

 

But. of course, that would eliminate 90% of the writer's plots and leave them with nowhere to angst.  *sigh*

 

 

 

[SueB]

Two relevant quotes from The Book of the Damned that speaks to Sam's state of mind when he decided the Book was the answer.
 
First, when Dean sort of loses time while holding the book:
 

SAM
Dean? Dean!
DEAN
[He’s across the room and looks up from the book.] What? [sam and Charlie exchange concerned glances.] I don’t think it’s a good idea that I touch this. [Dean closes the book and hands it back to Charlie.] I’ll go get the rest of our crap.
SAM
Right. [Dean exits the cabin.]
CHARLIE
What the hell was that?
SAM
He’s not getting better. He’s trying to cover, but… We need to find that cure, fast. [sam takes the book from Charlie.]

 
My thoughts on urgency: Sam is watching him pretty closely, And Dean basically just had a blackout.  That's a "Dean is not in control moment." I suspect that wigged Sam out.  And the LAST time Dean had a blackout moment was when he was killing Randy and the Rapists. 
 
 
Next moment is after Sam has seen Dean wigged out by the mere presence of the Book and then Dean insists that the Book has a cure (he KNOWS it does) but it's too dangerous and must be destroyed:

CHARLIE
So you’re giving up?
DEAN
No, I’m not giving up. Charlie, I don’t have a death wish. Okay, even if I did, I can’t die, not with this thing on my arm. What I can do is I can fight it as long as I can until….
SAM
Until what? Tell me. Until what, Dean? Until I watch you become a demon again? Until then? I can’t do that. I won’t do that.
DEAN
Well, then you’ll just have to lock me up. Bind me to the bunker like you did last time.
CHARLIE
That doesn’t solve anything.
SAM
Look, just let us translate the book, okay? If there’s a cure, we’ll do it and deal with the consequences later. I can’t lose you.

*emphasis mine*

Theoretically, you could say there's a argument for a non-death demon turning right here, without it being obvious. But, again, I would argue not strong enough to get the audience to cotton on that "demon without death" is an option.

 

And you know, what if the issue was just that Dean sliding down that slope was so reckless (chasing after a vampire nest on his own) that Sam thought a temporary death (and demon turning) was likely the way Dean was acting. So even if you didn't buy the "he was turning back into a demon", the effect of the Mark would lead to actions that made him a demon. 

 

Dean was an epic BadAss on most days, but look at this maneuver in  The Prisoner:

 

No matter HOW angry he is, a normal human does NOT break thru that wrist restraint.  Which means that Dean may not have the Black Eyes yet, but he was at least in a meta-human stage. Now he DID warn the Stynes that killing him would turn him into a demon (which emphasizes Death as a required stepping stone for demonhood), but the physical act he took just seconds later seems non-human to me.

 

IDK maybe after this moment:

 

he started taking a swig of holy water on a daily basis just to be sure he was human. 

 

I presumed it was a hallucination, but maybe it was a premonition. Or a peek at how on the hairy edge he was.  Of course he didn't tell Sam about either of those events, but Sam probably realized taking out an entire nest of vampires (The Werther Project) and killing EVERY super-human Styne ("over a dozen more upstairs...") meant Dean had physical strength beyond human. Sure, he had that with JUST the Mark the previous year. But was it THIS powerful? 

 

Then there's the beat-up of Cas back in the Bunker.  Misha and others seem to suggest he DIDN'T use his strength against Dean. And yet Dean's dialog with Cas was:

 

Castiel: Maybe you could fight the Mark for years, maybe centuries like Cain did. But you cannot fight it forever, and when you finally turn, and you will turn, Sam and everyone you know, everyone you love, they could be long dead. Everyone except me. I'm the who'll have to watch you murder the world, so if there is even a small chance that we can save you I won't let you walk out of this room.

Dean: Oh you think you have a choice?
Castiel: I think the Mark is changing you.
Dean: You're wrong.
Castiel: Am I? Because the Dean Winchester I know would never have murdered that kid.
Dean: Yeah well, that Dean's always been kind of a dick.
Castiel: Dean, I don't want to have to hurt you.
Dean: I don't think that's going to be a problem.
[Dean beats Cas to a bloody pulp. Takes his angel blade ready to stab Cas]
Castiel: No, Dean. Please.
[stabs it down besides Cas' head]
Dean: You and Sam stay the hell away from me, the next time I won't miss.

 

That dialog supports that 1) Dean believed he could take an slightly de-powered Cas in a fight and 2) Cas believe Dean would eventually turn.

 

And Sam saw the beaten up Cas and knew Dean was doing un-Dean-like actions (the Styne kid, Rudy, beating Cas).

 

And ultimately, what did Sam know:

- Dean was having Supernatural reactions (blanking out, showing superior physical capabilities) that appeared to be getting stronger

- Dean's self-control was seriously slipping (saying he'd rather Sam was dead, letting Rudy get killed)

- The Book of the Damned had a cure and although Dean (who is always ready to be obliterated out of existence even BEFORE he summoned Death) said it was bad juju, Sam didn't have a specific consequence

- I still maintain the intent was to read that Sam didn't have time to reconsider the spell before it was enacted (I know many others feel differently... I give 'almost murdered by your brother but he killed Death instead' sufficient motivation for not racing to stop Rowena's progress.... it had taken weeks before then, he didn't know it was imminent).

 

 

Bottom line, by the time we got to Sam's decision to press on with the spell at the start of 8.23:

1) They didn't unambiguously say "Dean could become a demon without dying", and that was a writer's mistake in my book. Clearly dying WOULD do the trick. But they didn't say he HAD to die either.  We all just assumed that was the case.  And the dialog allows you to go both ways IMO.

2) Sam thought Dean was going to be back to a Demon state (whether or not he had to die first) in short order.

Edited March 9, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

2) Sam thought Dean was going to be back to a Demon state (whether or not he had to die first) in short order.

 

Is this your spec or what you think the show actually was ...showing?

 

Dean's eyes flashing black in Inside Man was never even referenced again the rest of the season. In the Prisoner, Sam said that Dean wouldn't be Dean anymore, but he never implied he was worried he would become a demon unless Dean died. That's why Sam's urgency was befuddling right until he said he didn't want to have to kill Dean in 10.23.

 

Back in s9, Dean  was exhibiting some extra-strength. (I refuse to call Dean a meta-human because that is too damn Flash for me, and I am a bitter Arrow girl that is bitter about meta-humans polluting my organic Arrow....ahem ...sorry I digress. )

 

Anyway, Dean was able to overpower the thinman, could Jedi the Blade back into his hand, and seemed to hit much harder and take harder blows than before he had the Mark. So to me Dean being able to break out of the cuffs in the Prisoner was not any different than the abilities he had gained in s9 when becoming a demon wasn't even a blip on the radar.

Edited March 9, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

It makes sense to me Mark-infused Dean seemed more powerful in someways in S9 since Dean didn't know what was happening to him or what the Mark could do. So, in some ways, the Mark was in control more often than not at that point. In S10, he knew what the Mark was capable of and was trying to exert some control over it. Not always was he successful, but he was trying not to use that power if he could.

 

I guess I just didn't get caught up in the idea Dean had to die again to become a demon. Sure, that's how it happened the first time and I'm sure at the beginning of the season I thought he was safe unless he died again. But it's not like they ever stated that's the only way it could happen and as the season drug on I just thought maybe there was another way because it seemed Dean was walking that line between the demon and the human.

 

And, maybe he did have to die to actually become a demon, but whatever he was becoming was just as big of a problem, IMO. Perhaps that's all Jensen was trying to convey at that meet and greet; Dean was on the edge of being something demonic in nature all season. 

 

I really don't think it changes anything important if you think he had to die again to become a demon or not. Whatever Dean was becoming at the end of the season was a problem regardless if it's was a demon or something else. So, I think the urgency is still the same, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

 

Castiel: Maybe you could fight the Mark for years, maybe centuries like Cain did.

 

I`d forgotten about this but ha, even Cas theoretically muses on centuries. Urgency, my ass. 

 

Now I get that the characters thought/believed the situation was urgent. But that is of no consequence to me if the writing doesn`t manage to convince me things are urgent. The reaction then will always look completely overblown to me. Like it did. That doesn`t mean characters always have to react like I would (those would be terrible shows, then) but my response is "my God, take a chill pill", then the story doesn`t work.

 

 

I can't say the urgency was *only* because of the finale, because Sam also did the "has to be done right now, can't wait for Dean" thing this season; (sorry, I haven't been able to remember which ep is which since about season 7).  Anyway, when Rowena said "you have to come *right now* to see Lucifer in the cage," he didn't stop then to ask "what's the rush" or think, "maybe I should wait till Dean gets here" (and I don't think that was just because he knew Dean would say no...)  (Of course, I think that was the mid-season finale, so maybe there is something to the finale theory after all...)

 

It was basically the same situation. And sure, certain plot contrivances happen but at this point it wouldn`t even take me out of the story - any more that is - if a character checked their watch and proclaimed that they only had 10 minutes left till the episode ended so they needed to do XY and do it now. Heck, throw in a little 24-esque counter while you`re at it.

[MysteryGuest]

Once we were given the hint of black eyes during the season, I always assumed Dean was gradually turning back into a demon.  Would it have made more sense to show this to us on a few occasions...sure, but these are SPN writers we're talking about, after all.  My head cannon is that he would have eventually turned into a demon again on his own, but death would instantly turn him into a demon.  Whether that's true or not, I haven't clue, but I'm sticking with it for now.

[SueB]

Is this your spec or what you think the show actually was ...showing?

 

I think what the show THOUGHT it was showing but it didn't come across.  They definitely were trying to sell Sam being urgent and I know I didn't feel it.  So, for me, knowing he could turn at any moment would increase the urgency. And even if the logic was he was acting reckless and therefore likely to get killed soon and turned to a demon soon, it seems to me that Sam's motivation was a belief that Dean was going to be back to a demon soon.

 

I know I didn't feel that way, I thought Dean was hanging on pretty well. Further, I thought Sam's failure to share with Dean helped to motivate Dean spiraling out of control.  BUT if Jensen insists the Mark was driving him to be more "not Dean" ALL season and soon he would go the way of the demon..... well then maybe Dean was less in control than I thought he was.

 

Perhaps the issue is that they kept focusing on "the Mark" having a negative impact on Dean. If they had simply rephased it that the Mark was corrupting Dean's soul, I would have gotten the sense of a build-up. A sense of Dean sliding down a slippery slope.  Something that implied that Dean was losing ground each time the Mark pushed him. 

 

I do feel like there was five distinct post-demon periods:

1) before Dean killed anyone - snarky but humble, then unloads a clip into a shapeshifter

2) before he lost his shit with Randy and the Rapists - trying too hard, then 'massacres' 5 or 6 badguys in about 2 mins

3) before he killed Cain - first trying to "manage" his situation, then closing himself off from others after hearing Cain's prophecy

4) before he felt betrayed by Sam and killed ALL the Stynes - reckless but appears to be buying time.

5) after The Prisoner - uber reckless (got Rudy killed), and hanging on by a thread

 

So... I can actually SEE progression. But I didn't feel it at the time.  Maybe it was a problem of the "slow-boiling frog"**

 

**put a frog in boiling water, it'll hop out.  put a frog in cold water and slowly increase temperature, it'll keep trying to adjust it's body temperature until it dies of heat.

 

 

IDK.  All I know is, all three of the following statements are simultaneously true for ME and yet contradictory:

1)I can see what Jensen said and it makes sense.

2) I can see why I felt like I did at the time and it STILL makes sense.  

3) I can see what I think the writers may have trying for and it makes sense (but it wasn't sufficiently clear)

 

So... there it is.  A conundrum but perhaps only in my mind. 

[catrox14]

Well, here's something that I never ever thought about re Cas getting Dean out of Hell. It was a post I saw on Tumblr so the original thought is not mine. 

 

The post pointed out that  Dean would have already been off the rack and torturing souls in Hell when Cas pulled him out. Like I don't know why I never thought about that. I know Cas said they fought through all the demons to pull him out but my little pea brain didn't put it together that the timeline would have been Dean in the middle of torturing others.

 

And now I understand ever more why Dean thought he didn't deserve to be saved. And why Dean couldn't conceive of God picking him to be saved or to do work for him.

 

Ugh. I'm kind of fucked up thinking about that.

[Binns]

Well, here's something that I never ever thought about re Cas getting Dean out of Hell. It was a post I saw on Tumblr so the original thought is not mine.

The post pointed out that Dean would have already been off the rack and torturing souls in Hell when Cas pulled him out. Like I don't know why I never thought about that. I know Cas said they fought through all the demons to pull him out but my little pea brain didn't put it together that the timeline would have been Dean in the middle of torturing others.

And now I understand ever more why Dean thought he didn't deserve to be saved. And why Dean couldn't conceive of God picking him to be saved or to do work for him.

Ugh. I'm kind of fucked up thinking about that.

Dean breaks my heart. He just has no idea of his own worth. I'm trying to be realistic here but deep down inside I really want him to have a peaceful, happy ending when the show ends.

Something that always sort of bothered me about the Dean torturing souls thing...not that torture should be excused but aren't the souls in Hell there because they deserve to be there? I guess it's not always the case...case in point Bobby...but in my head canon Dean only tortured terrible, horrible, serial-killing, puppy-kicking monsters.

[catrox14]

Dean breaks my heart. He just has no idea of his own worth. I'm trying to be realistic here but deep down inside I really want him to have a peaceful, happy ending when the show ends.

Something that always sort of bothered me about the Dean torturing souls thing...not that torture should be excused but aren't the souls in Hell there because they deserve to be there? I guess it's not always the case...case in point Bobby...but in my head canon Dean only tortured terrible, horrible, serial-killing, puppy-kicking monsters.

 

That's an interesting question. 

 

Did Dean really 'deserve' to be in Hell because he wanted to save Sam's life?

 

Sadly, I don't think Dean only tortured the worst of the worst. Given that he said he got some relief by dishing out pain on someone else, I'm not so sure he was picky about who he was torturing. :(....

 

That is the one thing that differentiated Dean's Hell experience with Sam's. AFAIK, Sam never tortured anyone else in Hell since he was stuck in the Cage with Michael and Lucifer. 

 

I really do wish the show would delve into what torturing someone else did to Dean. I often wonder how close he was to becoming a demon when Cas pulled him out of hell. Just so much about Dean's Hell time that has never been examined and should be.

Edited March 11, 2016 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

Hmmm...I've been fiddling for a while with a UO post about Sam vs. Dean's time in Hell (my UO is that Dean's time was worse, with my theories.)  Should I bother to post?

 

[catrox14]

Go for it.

[ahrtee]

OK, here are my thoughts about Hell (I’d put this in the UO thread, but it seems to follow the discussion here)…

I understand that Sam spent much more time in the cage than Dean did in hell; but my feeling is that Dean’s time was worse, because:

 

1.   Dean’s tour in hell was designed *specifically* to break him.  It was vitally important to Azazel—to break the righteous man, and I think he was entirely focused on seeing it happen as quickly as possible. His whole plan was ready to go, and was only waiting for the first seal to break.   

 

2. Lucifer might be king of hell, but Alistair was the Master Torturer.  Kings don’t usually do their own dirty work, but hire those who are the most creative/imaginative/best at their job.  I don’t think Lucifer’s worst tortures would come close to Alistair’s.  And after torturing John for a century, Alistair knew what *hadn’t* worked,  and knew he had to be even more creative.

 

3. Lucifer had Michael in the cage with him (as well Adam, with his physical body).  And while Michael might also be pissed about Sam ruining the apocalypse, I can’t really see him allowing Lucifer to torture a human soul, much less joining in…at least, not to the extent that people seem to think.  And surely they’d be angrier at each other than the mere human who stopped them from fighting. 

 

4. Lucifer, in his meatsuit (and also in Sam’s hallucinations) seemed more interested in messing with minds, not bodies.  In most of the Lucifer/Sam interactions,  Lucifer was more annoyed (and annoying!) than angry, and the few hallucinations of physical torture (fire, hooks, etc.) weren’t very frequent or imaginative.  And even in his own vessel as Nick, he didn’t really torture anyone…he played mind games, and, if he needed/wanted someone dead, he killed quickly and sometimes messily rather than a long, drawn-out pleasure (think: Hammer of the Gods). 

 

5. I get the feeling Lucifer was more bored than angry, especially after a while.  I could see him playing with Sam like a little boy with a bug—not really trying to kill, but just seeing what he could do to keep himself entertained.  And, since Sam wasn’t chained to the Rack (like Dean was in hell), couldn’t he fight back, or at least duck once in a while?

 

Bottom line:  Sam’s tour was longer, and probably had more mental torture, which lasted afterwards till Cas took on his memories.  Dean’s time probably was more intense and had more physical pain involved, but Dean’s mental anguish over starting the torture himself really broke him beyond repair, and IMO he’s never gotten over it, even all these years later.

[Wynne88]

Not really arguing with what you've said, but Dean counts on his physical strength and toughness while I think Sam values his mental abilities more. So if you're going to hit them where it hurts, I'd think it would require different approaches. Just a thought.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I've never really bought that either's trip to Hell was any worse than the other. I think they both got tortured in a way that broke each of them. It'd be interesting to put Dean in Sam's torture and Sam in Dean's torture and see if or how each would hold up differently.

[Demented Daisy]

They both suffered in Hell -- what difference does it make who suffered more?

[Bessie]

Misery poker. Some people love that game.

[Demented Daisy]

Except in this fandom, it can lead to some ugly, nasty fights.

 

Not here, thankfully.  Not yet, anyway....

[Aeryn13]

The writers already made clear via dialogue which hell time they consider worse. Dean`s hell got retconned into "Disneyland". And if it is brought up these days, it is solely to focus on the torture aspect, noone remembers the being tortured part. In the aftermath, the storyline has been botched beyond repair IMO.

[ahrtee]

They both suffered in Hell -- what difference does it make who suffered more?

Sorry, I didn't mean to stir up any fandom battles.  It's just been bugging me for years, because, yeah, it *has* been brought up over and over by fans and the show itself that Sam's hell was so much worse, and I've never seen anyone question it.  And most of the comments *do* focus on the physical part (even Sam's season 11 flashbacks featured eyelids and pain...) and never mention any mental torture (yes, I do agree that mental torture might be worse, though I imagine it would be equally bad for both, judging by Dean's reaction when Alistair told him how long John had held out.).  

 

As Aeryn mentioned, Dean's time in hell hasn't really been mentioned since season 5, while Sam's has been brought up many, many times in the past 6 years.  I just wanted to balance things out, and maybe remind people *why* Dean's still so screwed up--because, while his insecurity and low self-worth has always been there (that's what made him interesting to me in the first place), IMO he really fell into major depression in season 4 and never climbed his way out; it just got built on over the years by his later perceived failures, loss of faith in Sam, Cas's betrayal(s) and disappearances, and Bobby's death.  And that's what helped create most of his problems in the past 6 years. 

 

So probably it's my timing that's off here--brought up out of the blue instead of waiting for another scene of Sam hell-flashbacks before starting the dialog.  And maybe I should move this to the UO thread.  I've had this lurking on my hard drive for years in one form or another.  The talk about hell and Dean's reaction here just reminded me, which is why I asked if I should post or not. 

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry, I didn't mean to stir up any fandom battles.  It's just been bugging me for years, because, yeah, it *has* been brought up over and over by fans and the show itself that Sam's hell was so much worse, and I've never seen anyone question it.

 

You need to scour back through some of the threads...especially the bitterness thread. It's been questioned, boy has it been questioned. 

[Binns]

That's an interesting question.

Did Dean really 'deserve' to be in Hell because he wanted to save Sam's life?

Sadly, I don't think Dean only tortured the worst of the worst. Given that he said he got some relief by dishing out pain on someone else, I'm not so sure he was picky about who he was torturing. :(....

That is the one thing that differentiated Dean's Hell experience with Sam's. AFAIK, Sam never tortured anyone else in Hell since he was stuck in the Cage with Michael and Lucifer.

I really do wish the show would delve into what torturing someone else did to Dean. I often wonder how close he was to becoming a demon when Cas pulled him out of hell. Just so much about Dean's Hell time that has never been examined and should be.

Yeah, true. I don't think Dean deserved to be there. I guess I was looking for a way to make it not so awful. The repercussions of his time there likely won't ever be gone. I agree it would be nice to examine his story more closely but it seems like that's not a priority and that's disappointing.

[ahrtee]

Well, I lurked on TwoP off and on for a few years before here, and SPN Crossroads more frequently, but I haven't had time or energy to follow regularly till fairly recently so I'm sorry if I missed a storm, but I honestly hadn't seen anything in any of those places in my lurking.

 

Again, didn't mean to start up a fight (again).  Don't really feel like going back through years of the whole site just to find out if something's already been settled.  

 

*Going back into lurk mode, maybe permanently.*

 

 

[Demented Daisy]

Well, I lurked on TwoP off and on for a few years before here, and SPN Crossroads more frequently, but I haven't had time or energy to follow regularly till fairly recently so I'm sorry if I missed a storm, but I honestly hadn't seen anything in any of those places in my lurking.

 

Again, didn't mean to start up a fight (again).  Don't really feel like going back through years of the whole site just to find out if something's already been settled.  

 

 

Nothing's been settled.  I suspect nothing ever will be settled, even years after the show is off the air.

[catrox14]

Taking my comments about Dean's Hell time to the bitterness thread...cause yeah I'm a bitter fuck about that.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, I lurked on TwoP off and on for a few years before here, and SPN Crossroads more frequently, but I haven't had time or energy to follow regularly till fairly recently so I'm sorry if I missed a storm, but I honestly hadn't seen anything in any of those places in my lurking.

 

Again, didn't mean to start up a fight (again).  Don't really feel like going back through years of the whole site just to find out if something's already been settled.  

 

*Going back into lurk mode, maybe permanently.*

 

I didn't mean to scare you away, ahrtee.

 

IMO, there is no settling things with this fandom; just a lot of debating that cycles back around. You shouldn't be scared back into only lurking, though, it's just the nature of the fandom, if you ask me. 

[catrox14]

Well, I lurked on TwoP off and on for a few years before here, and SPN Crossroads more frequently, but I haven't had time or energy to follow regularly till fairly recently so I'm sorry if I missed a storm, but I honestly hadn't seen anything in any of those places in my lurking.

 

Again, didn't mean to start up a fight (again).  Don't really feel like going back through years of the whole site just to find out if something's already been settled.  

 

*Going back into lurk mode, maybe permanently.*

 

 

Don't go back to lurking. You are not re-igniting a fandom war. If you are new to the board please stay.  We all have different opinions. All are welcome here.

[Demented Daisy]

Ditty, we did it again.  *giggle snort*

[DittyDotDot]

Yep...sometimes we scare me. But only sometimes. ;)

Edited March 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

Well, I lurked on TwoP off and on for a few years before here, and SPN Crossroads more frequently, but I haven't had time or energy to follow regularly till fairly recently so I'm sorry if I missed a storm, but I honestly hadn't seen anything in any of those places in my lurking.

 

Again, didn't mean to start up a fight (again).  Don't really feel like going back through years of the whole site just to find out if something's already been settled.  

 

*Going back into lurk mode, maybe permanently.*

 

Please don't go back into lurk mode, I have enjoyed your comments and observations.

[catrox14]

 

IMO, there is no settling things with this fandom; just a lot of debating that cycles back around. You shouldn't be scared back into only lurking, though, it's just the nature of the fandom, if you ask me.

 

I think many things come back up because the show ignores Big Fucking Things (BFT) it has created and leaves hanging and it's frustrating.

 

For instance, Sam not looking for Dean is s8 was a BFT. It was HUGE. It's been discussed, bemoaned, dissected, eviscerated, because it was never adequately explained in some viewers opinion. YET, Sam's choice very nearly destroyed his character for a good portion of the audience.  It affected how Sam was perceived going forward which in turn affected storylines and the perceptions of those SL. It created ALL the unnecessary angst. And it literally affected the story all way to the end of s10 because my head!canon is that is why Sam doubled down on looking for Dean to the point of recklessness. But by then viewers were adopting their own head!canons because the damage had already been done.

 

And then BOOM they dredge it up again in s11 in order to free Sam of his guilty conscience, which has the added affect of sending Dean BACK INTO HELL without one person in the show acknowledging that Dean was on a RETURN TRIP, which is why Dean's Hell time is up for discussion again. Which I though OH maybe we'll get some more insights into Dean's experience but HAHAHAHAH fuck me.

 

So yeah for me, I have no issue with topics being revisited  ESPECIALLY when the show has reopened the can of worms for the audience.