All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[AwesomO4000]

And I'm somewhere in the middle.  I am an almost-30 year Stephen King reader, so I'm quite accustomed to what you're talking about.  For me, it's like I said the other day about the seasons of the show being a staircase.

 

Pick an episode from the first 5 seasons.  Almost any episode.  Somewhere in that episode will be a nugget, a kernel, a drop of info about what is happening in the myth-arc story.  And I don't mean a passing, "We don't have anything, so let's do this instead."  (We had that a lot in the first season, but I cut Kripke et al a lot of slack in the first season.)

 

I mean -- Sam and Dean will have a conversation.  Bobby or Ellen or Ash will call.  Cas (or another angel or Crowley) will suddenly appear.  Even if it has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in the episode, it felt like Kripke was telling us, "Don't worry, we haven't forgotten."

 

Well, with Carver, I feel like the message is, "We don't know yet and we don't care."  It doesn't seem to bother anyone that they don't have a vision, a plan for the season.  And they fill the MotW episodes with that message.

 

I don't mind if the staircase is long and spiraling.  I just don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time climbing it when I could easily skip steps.

 

I pretty much agree with you about Carver. My comments above apply to this season and most of season 10, but in no way refer to season 8 or 9. In those seasons I either disliked or downright hated the journey along the way, so the fact that the plan and vision made no sense to me was very much a problem there. Not only was the end result not worth it, but I wasn't enjoying a large majority of the unrelated episodes either, which made it all worse.

 

Note to writers: If you are going to try to distract me, make the distractions interesting or at least shiny (in other words not depressing (Sam and Dean fighting in season 8; depressed Dean in season 9), boring (Amelia), annoying (multiple "anvil" episodes with stand in characters), or incomprehensible (Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin)).

 

And even though season 6 was a little jam-packed and lost its way a little, I actually thought that season 7 also did a good job of putting in nuggets along the way that related to the main story arc. In most of the one off episodes, we still had Dean stopping to check in with Frank for the most recent update on where Dick was popping up next (pun intended - hee), so I thought that Gamble did a good job in that season at least of keeping the main theme in there. Season 6 is a little harder to assess since it was kind of broken up in the middle as to arcs, and we had an "explainer" episode to tie it together, but still, that episode did seem to make most of the pieces fit so that I could believe that much of it was planned. Not so much many of Carver's arcs.

[Demented Daisy]

Carver's seasons have a pattern.  It's very paint-by-numbers.  Three myth-arc episodes to start, a couple of MotW, another myth-arc, a handful of MotW, mid-season finale, then repeat in the second half of the season.  It takes the spontaneity out of the show.  They're not keeping the audience on their toes -- or the edge of their seats.

[SueB]

I have gotten the impression that Jensen is tired of the questions about Dean's sexuality, so I would be -- surprised isn't even the word.  Not even sure if shocked is right.  Flabbergasted?  Gobsmacked?  If the show went there now, after all these years.

 

I mean, they're all professionals, but I can't imagine they'd be okay with it.  Not because it's inherently wrong, but it's not who the characters are for them.

 

I'm glad you brought this up because I had a weird thought last night and now I have an opportunity to share!  (sorry, I know you'll all hear me out and who else could I tell this too?)

 

So Jensen has said that he's not playing his relationship with Cas as romantic.  And I get that.  But then last night we see this shy Dean around Gunner and Tumblr, blogs, et al, nod their heads and say "bi Dean".  So... IF I extrapolate that Jensen is playing Dean as straight hetero... then why do so many see last night as "bi".  And doesn't Jensen understand that this is a fairly reasonable interpretation of his acting?    So here's my crackpot theory (and yes, it's in list fashion because that's how I'm wired... sorry):

 

BACKDROP (disclaimer... obviously OPINIONS, I don't the know man personally but this is what I THINK I've observed):

1) Jensen Ackles is a VERY smart man.  He understands all the various theories out there and is content to say "you have your interpretation and I have mine" and mean it in a respectful way.

2) Jensen LOVES the fandom.  I'm sure he appreciates the income from Conventions but you just don't fly without a net like he and Jared do (in terms of accessibility and the amount they share within the "SPNFamily") unless you love the people.  His spontaneous comments are very genuine and appreciative.  He might be firm on some of his positions, he might troll us with spoiler-ish tweets, but he loves the fans and has no malice towards anyone or any group. With the rare exception of those fans who insult his wife or child --- he definitely draws the line there and although he's always handled things with grace, I imagine he's got some bitter feeling there (naturally).

3) Jensen has a high Emotional IQ, as stated by Kim Rhodes.  It's part of his acting talent.

4) Jensen is the kind of actor that also flies without a net in his work.  If the director wants him to go "BIG", he goes "BIG".  He not only lets himself look like a dork, he enjoys it.

5) Jensen obviously knows he's attractive and that many others are attracted to him but he doesn't really internalize that. It doesn't go to his head. It helps pays the bills.

6) If Jensen wanted the character to become an openly bi-whatever man, he'd make it happen. If Jensen does not want the character to be openly acknowledged as bi-something, then it won't happen.  He knows he's "just an actor" but he also is not business-stupid.  There's no show without BOTH he and Jared and he'll use his influence if he feels strongly about something.  Otherwise, Jensen will follow the page and add his creative talents as he sees fit.  Sometimes that turns out AWESOME IMO (Rock, Paper, Scissors in Love Hurts) and sometimes I'm less thrilled ("who?" regarding Jules Verne in The Vessel).  I'm thrilled he and Jared put this much effort into the show.

 

Which leads me all to the question: the acting choice he made regarding Gunner. 

 

Now I'm fairly certain the words were on the page that pretty much spelled out a fan-boy moment with the Pro-wrestler.  But what made it go from fan-boy to "bi-something" in so many people's minds? Here's my theory:

 

NOT acting choice contributions:

1) Partly confirmation bias, as Catrox discussed regarding a different topic upthread. Many already see him that way and this is just another overt example.

2) Dean is the "little black dress" of Supernatural.  He's paired with EVERYONE.  Dean & *insert character here": OTP! Why? Because he's freakin' gorgeous, heroic, and elicits FEELS from much of the audience.  

3) Hollywood has trained many of us to mentally pair up characters for most stories. And Dean, of the two brothers, is the "pretty" one. It doesn't matter how much of a BadAss he is (and he IS). It doesn't matter that he lets rice dribble out of his mouth.  Of the two lead characters, who are BOTH outrageously handsome, he's less Moose-y.  So he's the one who gets put in the love triangles.  Please note, I am not saying this is remotely a "right" thing, I'm just saying I think it's a "thing".

Regardless of which guy it is, if there's chemistry, we "pair".  Look at how quick folks were to pair Sam & Eileen.  I could see it.  Why the hell not?  

 

POTENTIAL influences on his acting choices:

1) What is he exposed to nearly every few weeks? Fanboys/fangirls at the conventions. He sees how they act.  Acting like they act towards him is pretty much an homage to the fans. And done with LOVE. Just like the wrestler treated Dean's geek-out moment with kindness and respect.  

2) Does anyone who gets a photo/autograph/etc from Jensen look at him with adoration? Could that look the same as "romantic" but not mean anything other than "thank-you-for-breathing-and-I-think-I-may-pass-out" admiration?

3) Is it possible that Jensen, while intellectually understanding he's good looking and smart enough to realize that's part of the reaction for some is that they feel like they are "standing next to the Sun" (an oft-quoted reaction), doesn't actually internalize the one-sided attraction part of the encounter because he's conditioned not to?

So... when he made his acting choices in last night's episode, perhaps it was emotionally consistent with his fan encounters without playing it as intentional "Real" attraction?  Because while he "gets" it, he's also a little blind to it? 

 

TL, DR Bottom Line: In other words, while he knows many will interpret it as a "Dean is bi-something", his intention was more along the "Dean is a shy fanboy" lines. And we, who rarely see Dean shy or flustered, squee in romantic delight?

 

 

And I personally think anywhere along a wide range of interpretations is completely legit.  With zero judgement.

Edited February 27, 2016 by SueB

[Myrelle]

IMO, Mr. Ackles exudes sex appeal naturally, without even really trying, and with almost every actor/actress with whom he interacts. FanboyDean is just another form or degree of  sex appeal within his formidable arsenal in that regard. ;-)

[mertensia]

I think the fans think way more about Sam and/or Dean's sexuality(ties) than anyone on the show.

[Aeryn13]

 

So what I'm saying is that even if season 11 of the show is like this book, and I definitely understand the point of view of the "where's the discussion of the mass extinction?" camp, so far I'm still enjoying the ride and I'm not holding it against the plot for maybe not being exactly what was advertised. I'll get to my "extinction" eventually, but as long as I'm entertained until I get there, I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt and give them the leeway to tell me their story.

 

Well, of course, if you enjoy a story, book-form or visual form, it stands to reason that it won`t feel like a waste of time. However, I found this Season to be super-boring so far. At times insulting with the uber-Sam-pimping and as someone who hates Suck Song like nothing else on the show, the last thing I wanted to revisit was anything having to do with it.

 

Back in the first half of Season 2, Dean also didn`t have even a whiff of the mytharc, that was still all about Sam (and picked up here and there but mostly in the second half). And the character was on a huge self-loathing downward spiral. But the way it was portrayed was dynamic. I enjoyed a lot of the episodes and it was simply interesting to watch for the most part.

 

In Season 10 the potential of demon!Dean was not at all explored and the potential of the Mark of Cain squandered like it had been before. The episodes themselves weren`t half as good as the aforementioned Season 2 but at least it was a tangible storyline where the character had a somewhat active role in it.

 

This Season Dean nominally has a role but the execution of it has managed to give me nothing. The character appears passive in the mytharc and in the standalones. I consider the first half of the Season Sam-centric but things have not shifted to Dean. Right now, they have shifted to noone and we`re in story-limbo. There simply isn`t anything for me personally to be interested in.

[MysteryGuest]

I think fans see what they want to see.  And it's natural to want your favorites to be like you.  That's the only way I can explain the large number of fans who think that Jensen and Jared are a couple in real life, or that Jensen and Misha are in love, and so on.  There are still very few gay characters on television today, and people like to see themselves represented.  But I'm not sure that means that Jensen is deliberately playing both sides of the sexual coin in his portrayal of Dean.  These wrestlers were idols of Deans, and represented some of the few good memories he has.  He was awe struck to finally meet some of his childhood heroes.  I personally didn't see more than that in his portrayal, but to each his own.

[catrox14]

I think the fans think way more about Sam and/or Dean's sexuality(ties) than anyone on the show.

 

Dean is a sexualized character. That's only a part of who he is but it's there. It's not an inferred character trait. It's an overt textual character trait presented to the viewing audience throughout 11 seasons.

 

Dean has a lot of sex. We see Dean have sex. Dean makes sexual jokes. Dean flirts with and is flirted with by women and men. Dean is subjected to sexualized violence by male and female characters. 

 

Sexuality,sexual behavior, and sexual orientation has textually permeated this show from the first episode to this season. Naturally, viewers are going to think about it and discuss it just like other character traits and plots are presented for discussion, by the show.

Edited February 27, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I don`t really care what sexuality Dean has. If they wanted to make him bi, I`d find it a bit odd after 11 years to only come out with it but okay. Equally, I think the Destiel ship has sailed. They have done their damnedest to make the character barely more than aquaintances for the most part  If anything they ramped up Sastiel. So, doing a 180 yet again and put Dean and Cas together would just feel unorganic at this point.

 

However, I would care very much if they actually did any of those things and pretented it was Dean`s "story". Like fucking hell. This is an action-adventure genre show. Romance plots are not what passes for stories in those. Even something as romance-novel-y as Vampire Diaries had actual plots as the backdrop for the romances. They know what actual stories are because they give them to all the other characters so this is no excuse to not giving Dean any.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean has a lot of sex. We see Dean have sex. Dean makes sexual jokes. Dean flirts with and is flirted with by women and men. Dean is subjected to sexualized violence by male and female characters. 

 

Which characters subjected Dean to sexualized violence?  

 

ETA  You know what?  I don't care.  And, frankly, I'm pretty damn angry that you even bring it up.  Dean's sexuality has zero -- ZERO -- to do with being sexually assaulted.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

Which characters subjected Dean to sexualized violence?  

 

Vampires, demons, Meg, Abaddon, Alistair off the top of my head. 

[Demented Daisy]

I don't know if you didn't see my edit or ignored it.  Frankly, I am shaking, I am so angry.

[catrox14]

I don't know if you didn't see my edit or ignored it.  Frankly, I am shaking, I am so angry.

 

I did not see your edit. 

 

There is a misunderstanding here.  I was attempting to address the comment that the show does not think about sexuality as much as fans and providing examples of why I think that's not the case because of how much sexuality/sexual behavior  is written into the show.

 

I was in no way intending to imply that sexual orientation is caused by or correlated with sexual assault because that is flat out not true and is an insane idea. I was kind of taken aback that you thought that is what I meant.  So I went back and re-read my post  and I can see how it could have been interpreted that way so I apologize for that. That was not what I was intending to imply because it's just not the case.  I hope that clears it up.

Edited February 28, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

 

TL, DR Bottom Line: In other words, while he knows many will interpret it as a "Dean is bi-something", his intention was more along the "Dean is a shy fanboy" lines. And we, who rarely see Dean shy or flustered, squee in romantic delight?

 

I think why there is more of a "Dean is bi" reading on this episode is how it was mirrored with Sam's fanboying/flirting with Rio. Gunnar was kind of flirting with Dean. He knew Dean's name, and had a drink waiting for him. Dean walks into a bar and sees a scantily clad woman dancing on the pool table and another one mainlining shots whilst laying on the table and he just kind of shakes his head at it and doesn't flirt at all with any of the women. Yes Dean was now working a case but two episodes ago, he was also working a case but decided to try and hook up anyway. 

 

I feel sad for Dean that even his childhood idol(crush?) turned out to be in a deal with a demon :(.  Man, Dean can't ever have anything nice it seems...:(

[shang yiet]

Let the Destiel fans have their fanon. I just don't want it to mix with canon and I don't see it anyway. As for Sastiel, I can enjoy it in fan fiction but I don't need any angel-Winchester love story taking up time which should be spent on mytharc, brotherly bonds and Monster of the Week, I do appreciate seeing more Sam/Castiel moments. After all, why shouldn't Sam and Castiel have their own friendship?

[mertensia]

Dean (and Sam) have had sex. Only the fans obsess about it.

Way late ETA but: are you equating sex with rape? Because no. Hell no. Rape is about power not sex.

Edited February 29, 2016 by mertensia

[catrox14]

From the "On The Head of a Pin" episode thread

 

 

Sam had been drinking demon blood, he just didn't have a "fresh" supply of it. I always equated the demon blood to steroid-use. Steroids build up in your system and you're never really sober unless you stop using them all-together for a long period of time, like he did after Metamorphosis up until Criss Angel is a Douchebag. So, the drug was in his system and IMO affecting his behavior and thinking.

 

 

 

Re demon blood:  Why is it even a thing? How is it even a thing for that matter? LOL

 

Actually I'm taking this to the WTF thread.

Edited March 2, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Having complete the Demon!Dean arc in S10 today, I came to a realization today.  I'll save you the 5 paragraph rant (under a spoiler header in that thread and give you the bottom line here):
 

 

Bottom line: Carver screwed up with Dean's arc in S10 because the audience was never let in on the concept that Dean was slipping back towards being a demon the whole f*ing year.  Catrox had the closest theory.  But even then, none of us bought Charlies death as a trigger for Dean to potentially become a full-on demon again.  We knew he was becoming a murder-rage person but not a demon.  And the fact that I had to ask Jensen Ackles a question in a Meet & Greet to come to this understanding???? EPIC FAIL.

 

[catrox14]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

I KNEW IT!!!  I didn't have it spot on but I'm counting it anyway.  All they needed was one stupid line of dialogue or even something in the Book of the Damned that had some reference to the possibility that Dean could turn into a demon again WITHOUT dying. Or hell even Dean telling SOMEONE even fucking Crowley that he thought he was turning into a demon again. It would have changed EVERYTHING about how we viewed Sam and Cas' actions and we would have been even MORE WORRIED about Dean. And we would have been analyzing every thing he did through a different filter.  It would have made Dean telling Cas to send him to the Sun even more poignant.

 

HOLY SHIT!  Just think of how much more frighteningly powerful the moment Dean's eyes flashed black in Inside Man, would have been if it had been framed around the fear that the Mark was twisting Dean back into a demon even without dying??? 

 

Carver, you big nincompoop! Argh...

 

This gives me even more fodder for my theory that actual Demon!Dean was scuttled for the 200th being Fan Fiction. Sigh.

 

But yeah I'm not gonna lie....I'm feeling a little bit smug LOL

 

Good Rant BTW SueB...

Edited March 7, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

It's so annoying for me that Sam's character seems to get thrown under the bus when the storylines aren't made clear, even when it would be relatively easy to do so - or even to fix it later. First season 8, and here in season 10 letting it look like Sam (and Cas) were just over-reacting.

[catrox14]

It's so annoying for me that Sam's character seems to get thrown under the bus when the storylines aren't made clear, even when it would be relatively easy to do so - or even to fix it later. First season 8, and here in season 10 letting it look like Sam (and Cas) were just over-reacting.

 

At least in s10, Sam was actively trying to help Dean, as misguided as it seemed to be vs doing nothing in s8. 

 

They did have Sam tell Dean that he wasn't going to watch him become that thing again or something to that effect.  I truly think TPTB must have believed that just by having Sam say something was wrong with Dean that we were just supposed to accept Sam's word for it and hop on the Sammy Save's Dean bandwagon.

[DittyDotDot]

See, I thought it was perfectly clear that Dean was slipping back toward demonhood in S10--I believe we even had discussion about it here--I thought that was the whole point of it all and why it was necessary to remove the Mark. I guess I should go read your post in the spoiler thread.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not convinced that Dean could have become a demon again without dying.  Did someone say that, or is that your interpretation of season 10, SueB?

[DittyDotDot]

I could buy that he could become one again without dying. Like once the process was started there was no going back unless the Mark was removed. The blood cure was only a temporary solution to the problem. The only way to save Dean was to remove the Mark.

 

Granted, I never expected Dean to fully be a demon again, but that's what I thought they were going for anyway.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean becoming a demon again was always a possibility because of the Mark, I agree.  His soul was being corrupted.  But Dean becoming a demon without dying kind of contradicts what happened previously -- namely, Dean (and Cain) dying before becoming a demon.

 

So, if the Mark can make a soul demonic, Lucifer never became a demon because he was not human?  Lucifer was corrupted by the Mark, but he's still an angel.  

[DittyDotDot]

Does it contradict it, though? Both Dean and Cain did become demons after they died and I just thought, unless they removed the Mark, there was no way to reverse that process completely. I thought that was kinda Cain's point in The Executioner's Song, anyway. There was no real cure for them as long as they carried the Mark. 

 

Think of the Mark as cancer. There is no actual cure for the disease. There are things one can do to hold back it's growth and/or put it into remission--the blood cure--but once you have it you are always in danger of it coming back unless you can remove the cancerous tissues--the Mark--altogether. 

 

ETA: I think the dying just accelerated the demon-making process. I'm not convinced they had to die to become a demon, myself.

Edited March 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

I'm not convinced that Dean could have become a demon again without dying. Did someone say that, or is that your interpretation of season 10, SueB?

Jensen Ackles, MinnCon M&G. He said that he played all season like he was more and more slipping back towards being a demon.

 

ETA: I'll see if I can find my M&G report to give you his exact wording.  To make a long story short, I was too fussed about Dean not being more open to realize that I had missed what he was really saying. It wasn't until I re-watched Soul Survivor and re-read the Soul Survivor thread (and catrox's theory) that I put two and two together.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

My theory was that the blood cure wasn't done exactly like it was in s8 so Dean wasn't ever fully cured of being a demon and that demon!Dean was just lurking, waiting to come out when it suited or of course upon death he would resurrect as a demon.

 

I mostly tabled my theory until "Inside Man". Now, I never took Dean going out and hustling pool as a sign of anything out of the ordinary because Dean has hustled pool his whole life. I did think there was a moment of coldness when Dean was kind of a dick about the guy's watch but his "a tear in my eye" made me laugh and i thought well, Dean was just annoyed by those guys in general so he was just fucking with them a bit more than he would, but not because he was turning into a demon.

 

BUT when his eyes flashed black in the restroom mirror,  I thought...oh wait....is demon!Dean coming out!? I was so ready to put on my Gloating Hat, but others thought it was just Dean's mind playing tricks on him or some PDDSD(Post demon!Dean Stress Disorder), if you will. So I put it to the side again.

 

Arggghhh, it really would make EVERYTHING a lot more meaningful and understandable from both Dean and Sam's perspective.

 

/cracks knuckles, preps to write ALL the fix-it fics

 

@DittyDotDot, I thought Cain was already a demon when he got the Mark which is why he could handle it. I thought Cain was still human when he learned that Abel was talking with Lucifer not God so he offered Lucifer his soul in Hell for Abel's soul in Heaven. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Here's my original report back when it had spoilers. 

 

I'm going to bold the part that he said that I didn't really pay attention to until YESTERDAY. Because... fangirl..... yeeesh.

 

That was me.  PIV-O-TAL.  I gotta work on diction.  It was my daughter pointing at my head that Jared noticed.  So, luckily I got to ask my question. It's funny, Lynn from Fangasm and I had talked about it beforehand and I planned to ask it during Jensen's M&G. Instead, I got to ask it in the Gold Panel and because of that I got to ask my second question in the M&G, someone asked for MORE details from my first question in the M&G, and Lynn expanded on my question in the Jared M&G (it was about character growth).

 

Which reminds me... More data:

- I prefaced that S10 had a lot of character growth for both Sam and Dean and I asked Jared if that growth would still be in place for S11.  He said it would. That S11 was really just a continuation of S10. But he also mentioned that "it" (I'm guessing the growth???) would be talked about right at the start of the season.  I followed up with "What was your favorite character growth for Sam in S10?" and his response was his "re-commitment to his brother." Lynn or someone then asked if that had been an issue and he thought it had been a problem for a couple of years and now that was over and he was very glad about it.

- Lynn told Jensen about Jared's character growth comment (about re-commitment to Dean) and asked if Dean felt that distance with Sam.  Jensen replied that he thinks Dean did.  But that while they had come together some after the being cured as a demon, Dean specifically started to distance himself AFTER Cain said that he would never stop killing.  That really was the moment for Dean when he knew he had to start backing away from Sam because he was going to have to go on his own eventually.  

- I talked about what I thought was astonishing openness on Dean's part in S10 and wondered if that would continue. His response was that was ALL THE MARK OF CAIN.  (SueB commentary: I wonder if he could see my face fall at that moment?) He wanted the Demon version of Dean to be the guy who just didn't care. About anything.  He wanted to show the Mark was still affecting him and that as he went on in the season, he was more open because he was closer to becoming a Demon again. He didn't care about his walls, he just said what he thought.  I said "even in the confessional?" and he said "yes, even then.  He just said whatever came to mind."  He thinks that S11 is like a CTRL-ALT-DEL and that he and Sam are on the same page. He expects the walls to come back up. My response was "wow, that's really interesting". (in the meantime I'm thinking SHIT! that's really a bummer... I LIKED open-Dean.) SueB commentary:  I mean I truly get it...and it was a pretty brilliant move on his part.*sigh*  I think I just wanted Dean to be more open so I didn't see how that was really a sign of demon behavior creeping back in.*sigh* again. Now I have to rewatch S10 with this understanding so I can see what he's doing more clearly.  BTW... I think he knew exactly what I was hoping for.. the man is very smart*.  

 

 

*BTW: he's also got a naughty mind.  In one panel there was some talk about the backseat thing and someone made a choking noise like fighting and you should have SEEN Jensen's face (or just watch the video).  Dude blushes, covers his face and nearly loses it.  And I immediately KNEW what he was thinking.  Which means I have a dirty mind too.  Still... watch it, it's pretty funny.  

 

 

See, I was focused on Dean character growth and here he's basically told me I missed a freakin' KEY PART OF THE PLOT.  I feel so stupid now. OTOH, it shouldn't take a Meet & Greet for me to get it.  Which means Jensen and Jared did the best they could within the script but if the words weren't on the page, they apparently didn't feel comfortable enough to spell it out.  I'm now going to have to go back and look at the transcripts and see all the times they "told" but didn't "tell".  I'm betting it's there.  That doesn't mean the writers are off the hook.  This should have been clear.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

See, I was focused on Dean character growth and here he's basically told me I missed a freakin' KEY PART OF THE PLOT.  I feel so stupid now. OTOH, it shouldn't take a Meet & Greet for me to get it.  Which means Jensen and Jared did the best they could within the script but if the words weren't on the page, they apparently didn't feel comfortable enough to spell it out.  I'm now going to have to go back and look at the transcripts and see all the times they "told" but didn't "tell".  I'm betting it's there.  That doesn't mean the writers are off the hook.  This should have been clear.

 

I feel like they did tell us and spell it out that Dean wasn't really Dean all season. Maybe I'm missing what your epiphany was about?

[DittyDotDot]

So, if the Mark can make a soul demonic, Lucifer never became a demon because he was not human?  Lucifer was corrupted by the Mark, but he's still an angel.  

 

Sorry, the site went a little wonky on me earlier and I don't know what happened to my response to this.

 

That's my interpretation. The Mark makes a human into a demon--whether they die or not--but since Lucifer was an angel it affected him differently. I still wonder if the Mark actually corrupted Lucifer or if that wasn't who Lucifer was to begin with and God just didn't want to admit that his most trusted wasn't really what he thought he was?

 

BTW, this has gotten me thinking about Lilith and how she was supposed to be Lucifer's first corrupted human soul. Which is interesting if you start wondering how long it may have taken Lucifer to turn Lilith into a demon. Perhaps Lucifer got impatient with the traditional torture and used the Mark on Cain to accelerate the process? 

 

God, I spend too much time thinking about this show.

[Demented Daisy]

Does it contradict it, though? Both Dean and Cain did become demons after they died and I just thought, unless they removed the Mark, there was no way to reverse that process completely. I thought that was kinda Cain's point in The Executioner's Song, anyway. There was no real cure for them as long as they carried the Mark. 

 

That's why I said it kind of contradicted what came earlier.  The implication is that they had to die to become a demon -- since that's what happened.  As far as we've been told, Cain didn't become a demon until after he died; same with Dean.

 

The disconnect for me is the demonification of human souls.  That process has never been fully explained.  But in every case, the human has to die.  We've never seen a human become a demon without dying first.  So the question becomes, is the Mark so powerful that it's able to create a demon-shortcut?  

 

I never thought there was a cure for the Mark's effects.  At the same time, they never indicated that the demon cure didn't work -- on Dean or the guy in the old movie they watched.  (If it didn't work, why make it one of the Trials?  If a Trial is an impossible task, then the entire process is negated and God killed anyone who tried it.  That makes no sense.)

 

SueB, do you have his exact wording?  I mean, a video or transcript of the meet and greet?  I want to make sure I 100% understand what you're talking about.

[DittyDotDot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, SueB, but I believe the meet and greets are video-less...I mean, there are no recording devices allowed in the room. They're more intimate conversations--only like 20 people get in--with the guest. I also believe the attendees are asked not quote the guest or spill all that's said in the room, but can give a vague "report" of it. That's why I consider the meet and greets more like hear say rather than fact. It's generally someone's "report" of how they remembered it.

 

Anyhoo...

 

 

 

That's why I said it kind of contradicted what came earlier.  The implication is that they had to die to become a demon -- since that's what happened.  As far as we've been told, Cain didn't become a demon until after he died; same with Dean.

 

The disconnect for me is the demonification of human souls.  That process has never been fully explained.  But in every case, the human has to die.  We've never seen a human become a demon without dying first.  So the question becomes, is the Mark so powerful that it's able to create a demon-shortcut?  

 

I never thought there was a cure for the Mark's effects.  At the same time, they never indicated that the demon cure didn't work -- on Dean or the guy in the old movie they watched.  (If it didn't work, why make it one of the Trials?  If a Trial is an impossible task, then the entire process is negated and God killed anyone who tried it.  That makes no sense.)

 

I do think the Mark is powerful enough to make a demon-shortcut. I don't know that the show was explicit about it, but that's what I always assumed. But, I don't know that the body has to die to become a demon. You're right, we haven't seen it happen to and un-Marked human, but since a demon is just a corrupted and twisted human soul, I don't see why one would have to die for the soul to get corrupted. It used to be making demons was a very long process--sometimes centuries--perhaps humans just don't live long enough for the process to fully take effect? But either way, I think the Mark is a special circumstance.

 

It's not that I don't think the blood cure worked on Dean. I think it did, but it was temporary. The Mark just went to work and started turning him back into a demon again. IMO, it wouldn't matter how many times they did the blood cure on Dean, he would always turn back into a demon as long as he had the Mark.

 

 

 

And another response that got lost somewhere in cyberspace...

 

I thought Cain meant the remission and relapse was about the bloodlust.

 

Well, sure, but the bloodlust is a symptom of the disease so if there is no cure for the disease, the bloodlust would just be remission and relapse.

 

 

My theory was that the blood cure wasn't done the way it was in s8 so Dean wasn't ever fully cured of being a demon and that he was just lurking waiting to come out either when it suited him.

 

It sounds like you're saying that Dean and the demon were two separate entities if the demon was just lurking inside Dean?

[Demented Daisy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, SueB, but I believe the meet and greets are video-less...I mean, there are no recording devices allowed in the room. They're more intimate conversations--only like 20 people get in--with the guest. I also believe the attendees are asked not quote the guest or spill all that's said in the room, but can give a vague "report" of it. That's why I consider the meet and greets more like hear say rather than fact. It's generally someone's "report" of how they remembered it.

 

Well, that's annoying.  That's a huge piece of info about the show and only a certain number of people are allowed to hear it?  Gee, great way to treat your fans who are nowhere near conventions or can't afford the meet and greets, show.

[Aeryn13]

I think the storytelling was actually very simple. We know they never envisioned making Dean a demon when the thought of the MOC story. It was a convenient cliffhagnger they came up with for Season 9. And, like Jensen recently said once again, the writers come up with a cliffhanger and AFTERWARDS spend their time thinking on how to get out of it. It is not planned. 

 

So, their basic story was MOC = leads to heightened bloodlust. Demon!Dean was nothing more than a cliffhanger and since they had an easy meta episode coming up the following Season, they never even bothered to make a story out of it. It was wham bam, thank you ma`am. And after that they went right back to their initial story of MOC = heightened bloodlust.

 

Normally, the story projection would have becoming a demon as the culmination of it but not so here. They did story A which led to point B, we quickly resolved point B and went right back to story A, Why? I think they wanted to stretch some things out until they came up with the other random cliffhanger of releasing the Darkness. 

 

To make the Mark story pre-and post-demon different, they COULD have had the exposition about how it was the key to releasing the Darkness. That would have been a new twist. But the writers didn`t know that yet at Season 10 episode 3 so we got nothing new until it was crammed in 20 episodes later. 

 

So since Season 9 MOC!Dean ended as a demon and Season 10!MOC!Dean was the same as Season 9!MOC!Dean, sure, he could have also ended up as a demon. But even the SPN writers probably knew that repeating the cliffhanger on top of repeating the storyline would have been too obvious. That said, the execution of Season 10!MOC!Dean was mild in my mind. And the worst things he did as a demon was wanting to be left alone and singing karaoke.

 

So the whole headless chicken attitude about removing the Mark played more to me as people having not an ounce of faith in Dean. Then again, we are talking people here who happily go along and wait in the car while Dean is left in a house with an angry  mob of rapists and murderers. Gee, what could go wrong there? Maybe create an opportunity for him to rage out in bloodlust with enough provocation? Anyone? Bueller? Where would you take recovering addicts for fun? Opium dens?    

Edited March 7, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

Well, that's annoying.  That's a huge piece of info about the show and only a certain number of people are allowed to hear it?  Gee, great way to treat your fans who are nowhere near conventions or can't afford the meet and greets, show.

 

It's not officially from the show and it's the convention folks who make those rules. It's a more private conversation with Jensen and they can charge a lot more money for those panels because they're kinda special, but this not the show saying anything. This was just Jensen's thoughts on how he approached playing Dean.

 

I really didn't think this was all that huge of a piece of information. I feel really like I'm missing something because I thought the show was fairly explicit in that the problem for S10 was that Dean was in danger of becoming a demon again and that's why it was important to remove the Mark. I mean, I joke that "The Year of the Deanmon" was only three episodes, but I thought the entire season was about getting Dean back. Soul Survivor was just the first step, I thought.

Edited March 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I feel like they did tell us and spell it out that Dean wasn't really Dean all season. Maybe I'm missing what your epiphany was about?

 

Dean wasn't regular!Dean but I don't think it was clear at all that Dean was on a trajectory to become demon!Dean again, because we had only ever been told that it was death and resurrection via the Mark that made Dean a demon not solely the presence of the Mark. IMO if the Mark in and of itself is what turned Dean into a demon then that means he was becoming a demon in s9 and that was never clear. He was human all the way through the moment he died in 9.23 because we know the Mark was killing him if he didn't kill. If he was becoming a demon why would the Mark be killing him?  

[Demented Daisy]

It's not officially from the show and it's the convention folks who make those rules. It's a more private conversation with Jensen and they can charge a lot more money for those panels because they're kinda special, but this not the show saying anything. This was just Jensen's thoughts on how he approached playing Dean.

 

I really didn't think this was all that huge of a piece of information. I feel really like I'm missing something because I thought the show was fairly explicit in that the problem for S10 was that Dean was in danger of becoming a demon again and that's why it was important to remove the Mark. I mean, I joke that "The Year of the Deanmon" was only three episodes, but I thought the entire season was about getting Dean back. Soul Survivor was just the first step, I thought.

 

I know it's not the show's fault, really, but it's still annoying.  

 

I think it's a matter of perspective.  I viewed the season as a reverse process.  First, they cure Demon Dean, then they remove the Mark, then we get Dean back.  I never thought of the cure as treating a symptom.  Before they could figure out how to remove the Mark, they had to re-humanize Dean because Demon Dean wouldn't want the Mark removed.  

 

This is why I hate lazy writing.  I felt like MoC Dean, there at the end, was so much worse than Demon Dean ever was.  I thought they were making Dean something worse than a demon.  If it was just a matter of going back to sleeping around, drinking, and singing bad karaoke, then why did they make a big deal out of removing the Mark?

[catrox14]

Correct me if I'm wrong, SueB, but I believe the meet and greets are video-less...I mean, there are no recording devices allowed in the room. They're more intimate conversations--only like 20 people get in--with the guest. I also believe the attendees are asked not quote the guest or spill all that's said in the room, but can give a vague "report" of it. That's why I consider the meet and greets more like hear say rather than fact. It's generally someone's "report" of how they remembered it.

 

Anyhoo...

 

 

 

I do think the Mark is powerful enough to make a demon-shortcut. I don't know that the show was explicit about it, but that's what I always assumed. But, I don't know that the body has to die to become a demon. You're right, we haven't seen it happen to and un-Marked human, but since a demon is just a corrupted and twisted human soul, I don't see why one would have to die for the soul to get corrupted. It used to be making demons was a very long process--sometimes centuries--perhaps humans just don't live long enough for the process to fully take effect? But either way, I think the Mark is a special circumstance.

 

It's not that I don't think the blood cure worked on Dean. I think it did, but it was temporary. The Mark just went to work and started turning him back into a demon again. IMO, it wouldn't matter how many times they did the blood cure on Dean, he would always turn back into a demon as long as he had the Mark.

 

 

 

And another response that got lost somewhere in cyberspace...

 

 

Well, sure, but the bloodlust is a symptom of the disease so if there is no cure for the disease, the bloodlust would just be remission and relapse.

 

 

 

It sounds like you're saying that Dean and the demon were two separate entities if the demon was just lurking inside Dean?

 

Nope. That's not what I'm saying at all. Dean WAS his own demon. In all my commentaries about Demon!Dean I never said nor implied they were separate entities and I am not implying that here now.

 

The blood cure worked gradually because it made demon!Dean just human enough to get out of the devil's trap so the demon aspect of Dean was receding with each dose of human blood. 

 

IIRC, the priest used his own blood to cure the demon in Clip Show and Sam used his own blood to cure Crowley. But Sam did not use his own blood with Dean. My theory was that since Sam did not use his own blood to cure demon!Dean that the ritual was incomplete/insufficient to completely remove all of the demon aspect. 

 

When I say "lurking" I mean that something would trigger the demon aspect to resurface because it was never fully gone in the first place. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Dean wasn't regular!Dean but I don't think it was clear at all that Dean was on a trajectory to become demon!Dean again, because we had only ever been told that it was death and resurrection via the Mark that made Dean a demon not solely the presence of the Mark. IMO if the Mark in and of itself is what turned Dean into a demon then that means he was becoming a demon in s9 and that was never clear. He was human all the way through the moment he died in 9.23 because we know the Mark was killing him if he didn't kill. If he was becoming a demon why would the Mark be killing him?  

 

To turn him into a demon faster? I do believe Dean was being turned into a demon from the moment he took on the Mark; I just think it was just happening at a very slow rate--probably slower with Dean because he was resistant to the influence of the Mark and probably why Cain was auditioning Dean for the job--but when he died, for whatever reason, the process was almost instantaneous. I also think the process probably is easier and quicker each time. So, becomes a demon is cured and the process starts over again. At some point I'd think the cure would be useless because the process would change him back again so quickly.

 

I don't know if that's exactly what the show was trying to say, but that was my interpretation of it.

 

 I guess they didn't explicitly say, "We must remove the Mark so Dean doesn't become a demon again," but I thought it was pretty clear without it. I dunno?

 

 

This is why I hate lazy writing.  I felt like MoC Dean, there at the end, was so much worse than Demon Dean ever was.  I thought they were making Dean something worse than a demon.  If it was just a matter of going back to sleeping around, drinking, and singing bad karaoke, then why did they make a big deal out of removing the Mark?

 

I guess I always assumed there was more to Dean being a demon than the joke they made out of it. I think we saw glimpses of what Dean really was as a demon in the back half of the season more than we did in the first three episodes when he was an actual demon. I guess I look at him taking out entire rooms of people and think, if he's not a demon now, how much worse could it have been when he was one.

 

Perhaps it was just me reading more into it?

 

 

@DittyDotDot, I thought Cain was already a demon when he got the Mark which is why he could handle it. I thought Cain was still human when he learned that Abel was talking with Lucifer not God so he offered Lucifer his soul in Hell for Abel's soul in Heaven. 

 

I'm pretty sure Crowley said Cain already had the Mark when he died and the Mark wouldn't let go and turned him into a demon--something about him not liking what he was becoming, so he tried to kill himself--but I could be remembering that.

[Demented Daisy]

 I guess they didn't explicitly say, "We must remove the Mark so Dean doesn't become a demon again," but I thought it was pretty clear without it. I dunno?

 

 

Part of my problem, I admit, is a knee-jerk reaction on my part.  I see the words "demon" and "Dean" within any proximity of each other and my mind immediately starts screaming "No!"

 

I felt/hoped that TPTB realized it was a massive fail and never had any intention of revisiting it.  So I felt/hoped that as long as Dean didn't die, he wouldn't become a demon again.  He specifically said that if the Stynes killed him, he'd just come back as a demon and kill them all anyway.  Death and becoming a demon are part of a package deal for me.

 

I don't disagree that the Mark was corrupting him.  It's the "The Mark would have turned him into a demon, even if he didn't die" bit that I'm having trouble with.

[AwesomO4000]

At least in s10, Sam was actively trying to help Dean, as misguided as it seemed to be vs doing nothing in s8.

 

This is very true, which is why I much preferred season 10 to season 8.

 

They did have Sam tell Dean that he wasn't going to watch him become that thing again or something to that effect.  I truly think TPTB must have believed that just by having Sam say something was wrong with Dean that we were just supposed to accept Sam's word for it and hop on the Sammy Save's Dean bandwagon.

 

I think the confusing thing for me - well two confusing things - were Dean and the result. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly - which is possible, I'll admit - Dean seemed to be saying that he was "handling it" and, for me, he seemed to be telling the truth. Usually I can tell and/or there are fairly good clues in Dean's behavior that he is lying, and for me those usual clues were either not there this time or I entirely missed them somehow... meaning that when it came down to it, with the way narrative seemed to be presented, I believed Dean and felt that Sam and Castiel were overreacting and as Aeryn13 suggested, they just weren't trusting Dean enough. Or at least this is what the show seemed to be presenting to me, and considering the consequences - i.e. really bad - this, to me, just seemed to support the "Sam was an idiot/wrong/overreacting" narrative, because in general when you do the right thing usually the result isn't supposed to be totally awful. The fact that even near the end Dean came up with his own plan - that had Death not made really short-sighted and, in my opinion, ridiculous demands - would have worked seemed to be further support for me that Dean wasn't really slipping so much and could've handled the situation himself. If he was supposedly slipping more and more towards "demon" and/or uncontrollable behavior, I personally would've wanted to see less "rational" behavior on his part - in other words, I would've wanted to see Dean slipping more into "I don't give a shit, so let's go demon again!" flashes than we saw, because with Dean still making rational plans to save himself near the end, this took away a little from the urgency to me. As did earlier stuff like Sam and Cas stupidly leaving Dean in situations where he'd get into trouble... which didn't quite support Sam and Dean being worried about Dean rather than thinking Dean was fine.

 

So based on that, I seem to be agreeing with SueB that I would've preferred the narrative be a little more clear. It seemed to me that the narrative wanted to have its cake and eat it, too, by both not having Dean appear to be too out of control even near the end, since he had a rational plan* while at the same time having Sam supposedly needing a really urgent plan to save Dean before he supposedly got out of control. In the end, it seemed sort of muddled and more like Sam and Castiel were over reacting.

 

And then the "Oh, see what they did now" consequence of starting another apocalypse also kind of made it look like Sam and Castiel screwed up rather than "saved" Dean... but after so many years with this show I guess I should be used to this show giving poor Sam crappy results even when he supposedly does do the right thing.

 

*Although interestingly it did seem to parallel Cain's "kill myself" plan, but still, Dean's plan was more well though out and rational since he knew the consequences.

 

 

If supposedly Dean was turning back into a demon without having to die again - and I like the cancer/remission parallel DittyDotDot gave above there, because Dean did die, so the demon switch was flipped at that point - that for me changes the dynamic of what was going on from "Sam and Castiel are overreacting, unsupportive meddlers" to "Dean is in some trouble here, some urgency in trying to cure him makes some sense." Or maybe something midway along that continuum at least.

 

Interestingly though SueB, Jensen playing Dean turning into a demon and that second scenario would also mean that Dean was being a bit of a lying liar who lies, because it would require that he was worse off than he was saying he was - which is why I think the narrative was trying to have it both ways (and ending up muddled a bit, for me anyway) by keeping Sam's urgency without having Dean be deceitful. Or maybe he wasn't purposely being deceitful?

 

Guess I'm going to have to rewatch season 10.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't disagree that the Mark was corrupting him.  It's the "The Mark would have turned him into a demon, even if he didn't die" bit that I'm having trouble with.

 

So, if the Mark was corrupting Dean, what did you think he would become from that corruption? Perhaps that's exactly why I assumed he would be turned into a demon again eventually? Demons are corrupted human souls, after all.

 

 

I think the confusing thing for me - well two confusing things - were Dean and the result. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly - which is possible, I'll admit - Dean seemed to be saying that he was "handling it" and, for me, he seemed to be telling the truth.

 

Oh, I think Dean was telling the truth. I mean, I believed he thought he was handling it up until the point he realized he wasn't. I didn't think Sam or Cass' response was at all an over-reaction. Dean's actions throughout the back half of the season just screamed "NOT DEAN" to me. I felt Cass and Sam were really rather trusting of Dean for the most part considering what he was dealing with. They pretty much left it up to him to decide if he could handle it and trusted Dean would let them know when it was time to put him on lock down. I actually was getting a bit annoyed at their aloofness about it all, myself.

[Demented Daisy]

So, if the Mark was corrupting Dean, what did you think he would become from that corruption? Perhaps that's exactly why I assumed he would be turned into a demon again eventually? Demons are corrupted human souls, after all.

 

 

Oh, I know.  But it's all about the death.  I did not think that Dean would become a demon again, as long as he didn't die.  I didn't think he would "become" anything.  I thought of him as entirely "other".  

 

I don't even understand why the writers would want to make him a demon again.  If anything, it limits the character.  As a human with the Mark, they could barely keep him under control.  I thought that was where the urgency came from.  They had to remove the Mark because they had no means of stopping him.  Even their angel friend wasn't strong enough.  I thought I mentioned that after one of the episodes -- if they just killed him, it would be so much easier.  Slap some demon trap cuffs on him and march him to the dungeon.  I guess I just thought it.

[catrox14]

 

I don't disagree that the Mark was corrupting him.  It's the "The Mark would have turned him into a demon, even if he didn't die" bit that I'm having trouble with.

 

I could buy that if Dean still had some demon in him even after the demon blood cure, that the Mark might eventually turn him back into a demon without death, given the right set of circumstances like killing a truly innocent person or killing Cas or Sam would trip that trigger. Hell I was pretty much expecting that for all of s10 given my theorizing.

 

I have a harder time with the idea that the Mark in and of itself is what was turning Dean into an actual demon from the moment he took it on. IF that is what the show wanted us to be worried about from the time he took it on, why not make it explicit either by show or tell, that by taking on the Mark, Dean was doomed to become a demon even without death and resurrection.

 

 

Re Cain:

I don't think Cain became a demon until after he killed Abel and was sent to Hell. Just to check my own memory:

 

 

From First Born:

 

 

CROWLEY

Well, after Cain killed Abel, he became a demon.

DEAN

What do you mean "became a demon"?

CROWLEY

I mean he became the deadliest demon to walk the face of the earth. Killed thousands. The best at being the worst. And then he just... Disappeared. Everyone thought he was dead or, at least, hoped he was.

 

Then later

 

CAIN

Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell.

Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier of Hell -- a knight.

 

DEAN: And Lucifer ordered you to make more.

CAIN

My knights and I, we did horrible things -- for centuries. Bringers of chaos and darkness.

DEAN

Then you met Colette.

CAIN

She knew who I was... and what I was. She loved me unconditionally. She forgave me. She only asked for one thing.

CROWLEY

To stop.

CAIN

When the knights found out, they took retribution. They took Colette, so I picked the First Blade back up, and it felt so good to have it in my hands again, and I slaughtered the Knights of Hell.

 

 

Then later in 9.23 we learn Dean is dying from the Mark

 

DEAN So dead? Well, Cain had the mark. He didn't die.

CROWLEY

Cain was a demon. Your body's not strong enough to contain the blade's power.

 

 

 

Then in the final scene we have this:

 

Your brother, bless his soul, is summoning me as I speak. Make a deal, bring you back. It's exactly what I was talking about, isn't it? It's all become so... expected. You have to believe me. When I suggested you take on the Mark of Cain, I didn't know this was going to happen. Not really. I mean, I might not have told you the entire truth. But I never lied. I never lied, Dean. That's important. It's fundamental. But...there is one story about Cain that I might have... forgotten to tell you. Apparently, he, too, was willing to accept death, rather than becoming the killer the Mark wanted him to be. So he took his own life with the Blade. He died. Except, as rumor has it, the Mark never quite let go. You can understand why I never spoke of this. Why set hearts aflutter at mere speculation? It wasn't until you summoned me... No, it wasn't truly until you left that cheeseburger uneaten...that I began to let myself believe. Maybe miracles do come true.

 

So it seems to me the order of events is as follows:

 

-- Cain is human when he kills Abel.

-- Cain goes to Hell and is turned into a demon per the norm.***

-- After he's a demon, he receives the Mark of Cain, becomes a Knight of Hell, turns other demons into Knights of Hell, commence human slaughtering

-- Cain meets and falls in love with Collette, a human, who knew what he did and what he was.

-- He turns on his own, slaughters all the Knights in Hell except for Abaddon

--Abaddon possesses Colette to compel Cain to rejoin with them but he won't and she starts to harm Colette from the inside out.

--Cain accidentally kills Colette and as she dies she makes him promise to stop killing

--Cain tries to kill himself with the First Blade but he couldn't because of the Mark.

--He throws the Blade into the ocean and retires away from humanity and become a beekeeper

--Crowley knows about the Mark of Cain and the First Blade and leads Dean to Cain

-- Cain passes the Mark to Dean

--Cain asks Dean to kill him with the First Blade because he doesn't want to go on killing again.

 

IMO Cain tried to kill himself after Colette died. He thought he'd be able to kill himself if he used the First Blade, but the Mark wouldn't let him die, so he found a way to live with the Mark by living in seclusion after throwing the Blade into the ocean.

 

Which fuels my further theory that Cain isn't dead:

 

The First Blade is useless without the Mark. If Cain tried to kill himself with the First Blade when he had the Mark and he couldn't do it,  how was Dean able to kill him with it when Cain still had an active Mark? Does the Mark prevent suicide?  HMMMM 

 

ETA: Dean didn't cut off the Mark, he only cut off Cain's Hand

 

***It's possible that Cain was still human, even in Hell, when Lucifer imparted the Mark of Cain upon him. If that was the case then Cain should have been dying if he didn't kill. So if he was already dying, why not just let himself ...die. He didn't know he's be a demon anymore than Dean did.  .....

 

 

I don't think I even understand what I just wrote. LOL

Edited March 7, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I don't even understand why the writers would want to make him a demon again.  If anything, it limits the character.  As a human with the Mark, they could barely keep him under control.  I thought that was where the urgency came from.  They had to remove the Mark because they had no means of stopping him.  Even their angel friend wasn't strong enough.  I thought I mentioned that after one of the episodes -- if they just killed him, it would be so much easier.  Slap some demon trap cuffs on him and march him to the dungeon.  I guess I just thought it.

 

 

I don't think the writer's did want to make Dean a demon again; that's why he didn't actually become a demon again. You're right, they didn't have any real means of controlling Dean, but I thought that's because he was turning into a demon. Sure, they could slap some cuffs on him, march him back into the dungeon and do the cure again, but soon enough they'd have to do it all again. And, what's the cost in the meantime? Plus, at what point does Dean the demon finally figure out how to stay in witness protection so Sam and Cass can't find him.

 

I don't know, like I said, I guess they didn't actually have anyone say the words, but that's what I assumed was happening to him. But, you know what happens when one assumes, right? ;)

Edited March 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Way back in the day, I speculated that Dean would not become a demon because it was the deal with Lucifer that made Cain a demon, not the Mark itself.  But once Dean died and became a demon, my theory was shot to hell, so to speak.

 

Frankly, the entire Mark of Cain story has been poorly conceived and poorly executed, IMO.

 

I don't think the writer's did want to make Dean a demon again; that's why he didn't actually become a demon again. You're right, they didn't have any real means of controlling Dean, but I thought that's because he was turning into a demon. Sure, they could slap some cuffs on him, march him back into the dungeon and do the cure again, but soon enough they'd have to do it all again. 

 

 

Sure, if they went ahead and gave him the cure and released him again.  But the logical course of action would have been to keep him there, locked up, until they not only had the demon cure, but a way to remove the Mark.  That way, they get Dean back in one fell swoop!

 

Wouldn't have made for an interesting season though, huh?  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

So it seems to me the order of events is as follows:

 

-- Cain is human when he kills Abel.

-- Cain goes to Hell and is turned into a demon per the norm.

-- After he's a demon, he receives the Mark of Cain, becomes a Knight of Hell, turns other demons into Knights of Hell, commence human slaughtering

-- Cain meets and falls in love with Collette, a human, who knew what he did and what he was.

-- He turns on his own, slaughters all the Knights in Hell except for Abaddon

--Abaddon possesses Colette to compel Cain to rejoin with them but he won't and she starts to harm Colette from the inside out.

--Cain accidentally kills Colette and as she dies she makes him promise to stop killing

--Cain tries to kill himself with the First Blade but he couldn't because of the Mark.

--He throws the Blade into the ocean and retires away from humanity and become a beekeeper

--Crowley knows about the Mark of Cain and the First Blade and leads Dean to Cain

-- Cain passes the Mark to Dean

--Cain asks Dean to kill him with the First Blade because he doesn't want to go on killing again.

 

IMO Cain tried to kill himself after Colette died. He thought he'd be able to kill himself if he used the First Blade, but the Mark wouldn't let him die, so he found a way to live with the Mark by living in seclusion after throwing the Blade into the ocean.

 

Which fuels my further theory that Cain isn't dead:

 

The First Blade is useless without the Mark. So if Cain was slaughtering all those Knights with the First Blade he had have had the Mark in the first place

 

If Cain tried to kill himself with the First Blade when he had the Mark and he couldn't do it, then why would Dean be able to kill him with it? Does the Mark prevent suicide?  HMMMM

 

I guess I have a different interpretation of the timeline:

 

I think Cain made the deal with Lucifer, killed Abel and got the Mark. Then, because he didn't like what the Mark was doing to him, he tried to kill himself, but instead was brought back as a demon. Became a night of hell and slaughtered lots of folks, fell in love with Collette and stopped killing....

[AwesomO4000]

I guess I have a different interpretation of the timeline:

 

I think Cain made the deal with Lucifer, killed Abel and got the Mark. Then, because he didn't like what the Mark was doing to him, he tried to kill himself, but instead was brought back as a demon. Became a night of hell and slaughtered lots of folks, fell in love with Collette and stopped killing....

 

That was my interpretation also, DittyDotDot, but I'm glad that you beat me to it, because I likely would've taken two paragraphs to say it. ; )

[DittyDotDot]

Sure, if they went ahead and gave him the cure and released him again.  But the logical course of action would have been to keep him there, locked up, until they not only had the demon cure, but a way to remove the Mark.  That way, they get Dean back in one fell swoop!

 

What have I told you about logic and this show? Silly silly demented one! ;)