All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[rue721]

I would say that it's amazing how much psychological damage physical pain does. And it doesn't matter if it goes poof every 24 hrs, you just want it to stop. So, you'll give in to make it stop. Test of wills.

 

But they were in Hell, where nobody has a physical body -- so how is physical pain even a thing there? Also, not to discount literal physical pain, obviously it's not something I wish on anybody. And it's traumatic and would be psychologically effecting in that way even when it's not happening. But I really don't see how feeling a lot of physical pain is at all a *personal* hell. Being hurt physically is horrible for anybody and everybody.

 

I think that the idea of "turning" him (Patty Hearst style) would have been a really good one, especially since they've been hinting from pretty much Day 1 that his ability to act out of blind obedience was dangerous. And I can see physical pain being *part* of some kind of brainwashing scheme if they somehow explained how that would even be possible in Hell. But how they actually played it, it seemed like just all day every day was about someone being stabbed at somehow (ugh) and the only mental fuckery was what resulted naturally from that.

 

Which is terrible in and of itself! But the demons' decision to abstain from additional mental fuckery is unbelievable imo considering he was being tortured/tormented by demons in Hell, and because it did seem like the demons (or whoever) were thinking very long term with Dean, and also using him as some sort of symbolic "righteous man." What caused that dropped ball imo was that in S4, the show took the "war" and "soldier" metaphor way too seriously, and that got in the way of them actually imagining the more metaphysical aspects of the story. I think they were trying so hard to shoehorn Dean's experience in Hell into that metaphor that it ended up not really making any sense as a *Hell* experience. Not in terms of it being too "good" or too "bad" or something, but just in terms of being imaginable and coherent rather than just some half-baked war or POW analogy.

 

I think they also just didn't want to deal with it as a storyline. They would throw in some random snippet of a flashback here or there, but that whole season was written especially poorly in terms of characterization imo and they sure weren't fixing to explore Dean's mental landscape in any depth or complexity. S4's Big!Character!Moments! were often really soapy and OTT, Dean was written imo as either basically an over-dramatic version of his usual self *or* a huge jerk (really inconsistently, too) that whole season...Idk, I feel like they just didn't have a feel for the characters in general at that time, and they didn't have a feel for Dean in particular, and they wanted to GO BIG!!1! in terms of the storyline, and they were shifting the focus to Heaven altogether -- which all added up to, they didn't have time or inclination for an actual slow-burn character-based SL like Dean's return from Hell would have made sense being.

 

Are those the seasons when Kripke had the most control over the production? It felt to me like someone who'd been chomping at the bit to have more power over the production had finally gotten his reins loosened (I assume Kripke? though Idk), and in his enthusiastic delirium, pulled out his old Wedding Scrapbook of all the amazing things he'd long wanted to do on SPN and now finally had the freedom to, and then played out every idea he had a clipping of in that scrapbook (characterization or consistency of tone be damned) over the course of the next couple seasons.

[rue721]

I didn't really got the impression that Dean felt like he failed Sam in season 4. I actually got the impression that Dean felt that Sam failed him. And this continued on into season 5, where no matter how much Sam tried to do better and show Dean he'd changed, Dean still didn't trust him or believe him. Dean didn't seem to be showing guilt about what happened or what Sam did and he didn't express any guilt over Sam freeing Lucifer. Actually he seemed to blame that all on Sam (as per his conversation with Bobby in "Fallen Idols"). Dean's little digs throughout the season about how Sam screwed up didn't sound to me like he blamed himself either, and neither did his throwing away the amulet. That to me partially showed Dean for good throwing away his feeling of responsibility for Sam since he felt that Sam didn't think of Dean and their family as important (which in my opinion wasn't true, but that was how Dean felt).

 

IA, Dean was pissed off. To be fair, it has got to suck to get back from *Hell* and pretty much first thing, realize that you've now got to help your brother get over the tailspin he went into over YOU going to Hell! Come the fuck on, you know?! I think Dean saw Sam still needing Dean to be the strong one at that point as really self-centered on Sam's part, and like Sam didn't even give a shit about him.

 

It seemed to me that Dean lost faith that Sam was someone he could trust to have his back or who genuinely cared about him -- I think he figured at that point that Sam was all about Sam, and since he's also all about Sam (despite his own frustration/anger about that, maybe), in his pov, there was nobody left to be all about him. (So then he started casting around in earnest for BFFs imo).

 

Also, I think he was frustrated that Sam couldn't keep it together on his own for FOUR MONTHS. And then wasn't even the one who actually got Dean out of Hell anyway because he was so busy sleeping with Ruby and drinking her (demon) blood, so god even knows what would have happened to Sam if Cas (and other forces) hadn't intervened and Dean had been gone longer! I think that coming back and finding that within a few months, Sam had gone off and become like, half demon or something, was a big blow to Dean's respect for his brother.

 

If it was about letting down soulless Sam later, that should've been alleviated by Dean getting Sam's soul back. Sam thought as much when he thanked Dean for that. But that didn't seem to help Dean too much and things got worse in season 7, so I tend to think more is going on there than that to the point that not even killing Dick Roman helped to erase things - which should've helped - nor Dean fighting his way through purgatory and surviving. So something else is going on here. I'm just not sure exactly what.

 

I think he feels weary and alone, and needs someone to have his back -- but doesn't trust that Sam will or can. In that S7 episode, the Mentalists, when they're at the museum -- the curator starts talking about the Fox sisters and that the younger sister was talented but troubled, and he says about the elder sister:  "yes, well... she didn't have her sister's charisma, but she looked after Kate. Sometimes, one's true gift is taking care of others." Hearing that, Dean got this look in his eye like he was pretty close to hulking out. Then, as soon as they left the museum, he really lit into Sam in an argument that ended with telling Sam to "stop being a little bitch." I think that was again about the same frustration.

 

I think that, in Dean's perception, he looks out for Sam -- by killing Amy when Sam can't, by trying to stay with Sam during the Trials, by putting Gadreel in Sam to heal him, etc -- and instead of being grateful or appreciative, Sam gets pissed and decides to leave him, every time! But if Dean doesn't look out for Sam -- because he's in Hell, because Sam has been kidnapped by YED and out of reach, etc -- then Sam is almost immediately dead or worse. So Dean *has* to look out for him. But when Dean asks if Sam would do the same for him -- would he have also put Gadreel into his body to heal him, etc -- Sam says no, he wouldn't! I think that Sam thinks his love for Dean is obvious and can't even understand that this is a "thing," and tbh I think it *is* obvious that he loves him, but imo Dean feels like he's been left to basically twist in the wind by himself.

 

I think that's because, for Dean, love = protection, and if Sam is saying that he wouldn't protect him, that's Sam saying he doesn't love him, and if Sam is saying he doesn't care about or want Dean's (over)protection, that's Sam saying he doesn't care about or want Dean's love for him. What Sam is *trying* to communicate, imo, is that he respects Dean enough to respect his wishes (so Sam wouldn't "protect" him by overriding those wishes), and he wants Dean's respect in return (and so doesn't want Dean to "protect" him by not allowing him to take off the (metaphorical) training wheels). But imo they're constantly talking past each other, so Dean feels unloved and unprotected, and Sam feels disrespected and distrusted. Honestly, I have no idea how they can resolve that.

[SueB]

 

I want so much more than that. A real big heroic success that he himself can claim. Not being saved. That reinforces nothing else than the ones doing the saving are the real heroes while he was too weak and not good enough and needed to be saved in the first place. It`s stuff like that which IMO chips away and ultimately destroys any belief one has in oneself.

 

In the end, lots of people would consider a beloved pet "worth" saving as well, depending on the situation and the danger level. I get the trope in general but I don`t see it working here and I don`t see it as a compliment for the character or growth or anything in that vein. What I want more than anything is for Dean`s STRENGTH to be acknowledged and validated.

By strength I presume you mean emotional strength. Because after Purgatory, I don't think anyone is in Dean's weight class as a hunter.  Sam is awesome but Dean has a deadliness to him that a year of 360 deg combat created. The Mark just puts it on Supernatural steroids.  And since Dean was historically the righteous man and the one with the moral certitude, again, I'm going to guess that you are not talking "strength of character". Which leaves me with him never ever hearing "boo hoo princess" again? That he is not suppressing his pain, which he already has a black belt in denial/suppression.  That he has enough confidence in himself as a good person that he's not only doing the right thing but that he is a worthy human being. That he can let shit go (like he told Cas) in a healthy way.

 

So...with this (perhaps wrong) understanding...I'm not sure I know what Dean can internally generate that defeats the Mark.  This definitely sounds like "the power of love" kind of a manuever (and I KNOW you hate yellow crayon speeches).  Dean has tried to satiate the mark with booze, sex, food, laughter.  So what is the opposite of bloodlust? It certainly seems anger-induced/driven.  I remember once Spock or McCoy telling Kirk to let go of his anger and Kirk saying he NEEDS his anger. To keep going.  That feels a lot like how Dean kept on keeping on through S7.  S8 he seemed to just enjoy the hunt. S9 he started spiraling downward --- worse than S4 and S6. 

 

Again, I come back to forgiveness (another yellow crayon concept).  So... I'm struggling to figure out what "strength" he has to have demonstrated that is a Dean-only win. That he doesn't need anyone? Well that's sort of against the main thesis of the show.  It's unrealistic to expect the solution is Dean needs no one in his life.  If that's your expectation, I think you will be disappointed. I think the only solo thing Dean HAS to do is to recognize he IS a good man that saves people, despite things sometimes turning out shitty.  That people look to him for help and count on him to save them.  And that he's been given the gifts necessary to do that job.  Kinda warm & fuzzy there but that's all I can think of.

 

 

But they were in Hell, where nobody has a physical body -- so how is physical pain even a thing there?

You are not actually "in pain" unless the brain acknowledges it.  So... somehow their consciousness/self-awareness is still working. Therefore if they THINK they are in pain (thru a hellucination) then they are.  I think they had Sam's pain be "on fire" because it is literally one of the worst physical feelings (until your nerves are dead...then it gets freaky).

Edited December 12, 2014 by SueB

[Rammfan]

IA, Dean was pissed off. To be fair, it has got to suck to get back from *Hell* and pretty much first thing, realize that you've now got to help your brother get over the tailspin he went into over YOU going to Hell! Come the fuck on, you know?! I think Dean saw Sam still needing Dean to be the strong one at that point as really self-centered on Sam's part, and like Sam didn't even give a shit about him.

 

It seemed to me that Dean lost faith that Sam was someone he could trust to have his back or who genuinely cared about him -- I think he figured at that point that Sam was all about Sam, and since he's also all about Sam (despite his own frustration/anger about that, maybe), in his pov, there was nobody left to be all about him. (So then he started casting around in earnest for BFFs imo).

 

Also, I think he was frustrated that Sam couldn't keep it together on his own for FOUR MONTHS. And then wasn't even the one who actually got Dean out of Hell anyway because he was so busy sleeping with Ruby and drinking her (demon) blood, so god even knows what would have happened to Sam if Cas (and other forces) hadn't intervened and Dean had been gone longer! I think that coming back and finding that within a few months, Sam had gone off and become like, half demon or something, was a big blow to Dean's respect for his brother.

 

 

I think he feels weary and alone, and needs someone to have his back -- but doesn't trust that Sam will or can. In that S7 episode, the Mentalists, when they're at the museum -- the curator starts talking about the Fox sisters and that the younger sister was talented but troubled, and he says about the elder sister:  "yes, well... she didn't have her sister's charisma, but she looked after Kate. Sometimes, one's true gift is taking care of others." Hearing that, Dean got this look in his eye like he was pretty close to hulking out. Then, as soon as they left the museum, he really lit into Sam in an argument that ended with telling Sam to "stop being a little bitch." I think that was again about the same frustration.

 

I think that, in Dean's perception, he looks out for Sam -- by killing Amy when Sam can't, by trying to stay with Sam during the Trials, by putting Gadreel in Sam to heal him, etc -- and instead of being grateful or appreciative, Sam gets pissed and decides to leave him, every time! But if Dean doesn't look out for Sam -- because he's in Hell, because Sam has been kidnapped by YED and out of reach, etc -- then Sam is almost immediately dead or worse. So Dean *has* to look out for him. But when Dean asks if Sam would do the same for him -- would he have also put Gadreel into his body to heal him, etc -- Sam says no, he wouldn't! I think that Sam thinks his love for Dean is obvious and can't even understand that this is a "thing," and tbh I think it *is* obvious that he loves him, but imo Dean feels like he's been left to basically twist in the wind by himself.

 

I think that's because, for Dean, love = protection, and if Sam is saying that he wouldn't protect him, that's Sam saying he doesn't love him, and if Sam is saying he doesn't care about or want Dean's (over)protection, that's Sam saying he doesn't care about or want Dean's love for him. What Sam is *trying* to communicate, imo, is that he respects Dean enough to respect his wishes (so Sam wouldn't "protect" him by overriding those wishes), and he wants Dean's respect in return (and so doesn't want Dean to "protect" him by not allowing him to take off the (metaphorical) training wheels). But imo they're constantly talking past each other, so Dean feels unloved and unprotected, and Sam feels disrespected and distrusted. Honestly, I have no idea how they can resolve that.

 

This is *exactly* what I feel happened and everything fits in with this whole interpretation, IMO. There are no character puzzles and why did he do/say that or seeming incidences of character assassination if you see it this way.

 

I always go back to "Dark Side of the Moon" when I think of this:

 

The scene where Sam says "I didn't get the crusts cut off my PB&J. I just don't see family the way you do."

 

And Dean, so anguished/angry/upset, retorts, "But *I'm* your family! It's supposed to be you and me against the world!"

 

And Sam says "It is!" because to him he hasn't said anything to the contrary.

 

And Dean says "Is it?" because to Dean, he most certainly has.

 

To me, that conversation just crystalizes the whole *talking past each other*/*fundamental misunderstanding* thing they have going on.

 

Dean sees what Sam is saying as not loving and supporting him and having his back, but that's not what Sam thinks he's saying, and he is unable to say it properly the way he wants to, so he gives up and falls back into Dean's version and messes it up every time, *lets him down,* because he can't do it Dean's way and can't show Dean in his own way without Dean mis-interpreting it. And that's without demon-blood, run-over dogs, or anything else from the outside *also* messing them up.

 

What Dean equates with love, his "code words," so to speak, aren't the same as Sam's, but that doesn't mean that Sam feels any less love for Dean, he's just not using the right code. "Family" in particular is Dean-speak for love, but "family" means over-bearing and over-protective and disrespectful for Sam. For Sam, "love" is love and it doesn't need "family" to define it. When Sam rejects "family" that doesn't mean he is rejecting Dean's love, but that's how Dean hears it.

 

To me, this is where a lot of the tragedy comes from, because the usual way to solve misunderstandings, "why don't they just talk to each other," won't really work with Dean and Sam because they aren't speaking the same language. Sam is going a long way this season to get Dean to understand him in a non-verbal way, he hasn't already given up trying or found something to be resentful for (which is a sign of his maturity), and that's a very encouraging sign to me. That is how they are going to resolve it, if Sam gets time enough to break through, if the MoC and other outside forces give him that time.

[Aeryn13]

 

By strength I presume you mean emotional strength. Because after Purgatory, I don't think anyone is in Dean's weight class as a hunter.  Sam is awesome but Dean has a deadliness to him that a year of 360 deg combat created. The Mark just puts it on Supernatural steroids.  And since Dean was historically the righteous man and the one with the moral certitude, again, I'm going to guess that you are not talking "strength of character". Which leaves me with him never ever hearing "boo hoo princess" again? That he is not suppressing his pain, which he already has a black belt in denial/suppression.  That he has enough confidence in himself as a good person that he's not only doing the right thing but that he is a worthy human being. That he can let shit go (like he told Cas) in a healthy way.

 

No, I am actually talking about strength of character because to me the show put this VERY, VERY much in question. By having John supposedly not break and flush all the righteous man mythology down the train when a bit character like Adam got the more important role, that is basically worthless these days.

 

And in the Carver era we haven`t had acknowledgment of Dean having strength of character really. There is a lot on how he was wrong, weak, selfish, cowardly and all that. What Sam described Dean being as a person - and having ALWAYS been as a person - what he generalized Dean to be was somethin akin to Randy in the last episode, the little coward who sells out a girl to rapists to save his own skin. The show never gave the message that this was supposed to be bullshit and lots of fandom see it as "harsh truths" as well.

 

Not the "I lied" and not running after Demon!Dean to cure him negates the words to me. This wasn`t the first time that Sam said stuff like this, though never THAT much denigration of character, and then tries to keep Dean from dying or something at other times. Again, IMO, that is where I see the clear line between love and respect and why I want the respect.

 

So, yeah, the Mark makes him go off the rails with a violent rage, hence it WOULD be a good opportunity to acknowledge show the strength of character by sayhaving him be able to pull back from killing a true innocent in a future scene. And then please have some fucking dialogue on how NOONE else could have. Sam gets that all the time, now it`s Dean`s turn.

 

Of course I would never want a boohoo speech directed at Dean again but I don`t actually mind if he keeps his vulnerabilities to himself. I for one am not looking forward to another "truth-telling" or "inhbitions removed" scene in the future where those gets turned against him after he confided them. If and when I see a character respecting Dean, then I can go with him letting himself be vulnerable with them. For example I would have bought it with Benny, I bought it to some degree with Cas but if he bares his belly for Sam again at this point, he is just asking for another nice little speech down the line where he gets to hear how much of a loser he is.

 

Additionally, I would also not be averse to some acknowledgment of his physical prowess of a hunter because that is far from being glowingly endorsed either. 

 

 

.I'm not sure I know what Dean can internally generate that defeats the Mark.  This definitely sounds like "the power of love" kind of a manuever (and I KNOW you hate yellow crayon speeches)

 

I do but I assume we`d be talking about a situation here where Dean is not the one giving the speech but the one who holds the power, yes? The one who gets to make a choice because they have the power, the choice of either evil or good? 

 

My problem is more with saying the speech-giver holds any kind of importance or value because they literally have nothing else to bring to the table than giving some teary speech.

 

But if we`re positing roughly a scenario like Dean had in Point of No Return with saying yes to Michael or not and then making his choice to kill Zachrariah instead. There is probably enough people that credit Sam with some/lots of that for his "I have faith in you" speech and all that. I`m not. For the same reason I can`t credit Dean for the Suck Song save. 

 

To me Zachariah was ALL Dean and the other ALL Sam. Unfortunately, the two were very unbalanced in terms of epicness and scope. So if there was a situation where Dean is seemingly out of control and gets talked down by the power of wuv? He still has to make the choice to come back to himself, he still has to find his own strength to make that happen. Which is why 100 % of the credit go to him. So, it would kind of fit my requirements, depending on the dialogue and how it was played. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

AwesomeO said:
 

 

I tend to agree more with rue721 that it was more likely the breaking down and torturing in hell that did it maybe along with the mounting losses

........    So something else is going on here. I'm just not sure exactly what.

I agree with your assessment of the other topics that came and went. I think the fundamental breaking that happened in Hell never got fixed.  It was one crisis after another. I think it comes down to the message drummed into him from John: "If you screw up, people die." And since people around him keep dying, Dean's screwing up (in his mind). A lot of the villain monologuing that gets into Dean's psyche (as well as something Jo said) all center around Dean assumes EVERYTHING is his responsibility. And when Kevin died, and it WAS his responsibility (because he didn't warn him and he tricked Sam into taking on Gadreel), then that's when Dean his his lowest point (and took on the Mark).  Really, Dean should have known better.  It's borrowed power and it's personal.  It's not like using an angel blade or the horseman's rings.  He took the power into himself.  That NEVER works well. 

 

BUT if anyone can beat this, IMO it's Dean.  Honestly, he's in over his head and finally looking for help.  He's giving Sam and Cas his trust in a significant way.  I really think he NEEDS to trust people and he felt he couldn't. S9 he was all alone emotionally.  And that's when shit went bad. And just because he gets their love and support doesn't mean it's all fixed. It just means he can talk things out and not get wrapped around the axle.  

 

I think the end of Things We Left Behind HAD to happen. Dean did something he didn't mean to do.  He's an excellent problem solver. Since Cas & Sam will take "throwing him into the Sun" out of the equation, maybe we'll get some progress. 

[catrox14]

I don't think I articulated my thoughts very well.

 

My issue is not that I am incapable of imagining that Dean's downturn  was due to Hell experience, but more that the show never SHOWED it. And it especially pronounced now that Dean was turned into an actual demon many years later.

 

I can head!canon that Dean doesn't like to  talk about his issues but that doesn't mean the people in his life should have been allowed to forget it or worse, use it against him.  I would have appreciated a conversation between Sam and Bobby expressing their overwhelming concern for Dean's mental and emotional well-being even if Dean didn't want to talk about anymore.  To me, Dean not wanting to talk about it, does not absolve the show from ignoring it in general or without any depth.  If Sam's experience had been vague references like Dean's it would at least have felt like a choice by the showrunners to keep Hell and Hell experiences left to the viewers minds eyes.

 

They didn't write into the dialogue, they didn't show him breaking in Hell, they didn't show him doing bad things to other souls in Hell, we never saw him suffer whilst in Hell. I suppose if they had never spent a virtual season + on Sam's referring to his Hell experience along with making it explicit on screen via showing him without a soul doing bad things, then getting re-souled and actually showing his mental breakdown and Halluciferations, and flames around his head and then putting himself back together again it would not bother me at all.  Even as a Dean-leaning girl, I'd be saying the same thing if the situation was reversed. 

 

Dean's Hell time IMO should be revisited since the advent of demon!Dean. I still don't really know why Dean was specifically a candidate for the MoC other than him believing he is a killer just because he made some terrible decisions. How much smarter and more meaningful would it

have been for the show to tie Dean's candidacy for Mark of Cain to his time in Hell? Theoretically  he was a demon-in-process because he had been tortured for 30 years and tortured for 10 years.

 

Instead we have gotten depressed, alcoholic Dean who violates his brother's agency to save his life and the result is a dead Kevin and a bitter resentful Sam which spins Dean into further depression and viewing himself as poison so much so that he allies with Crowley to find a way to get vengeance on Gadreel and Abbaddon via the First Blade. But then the only reason they give for Dean being a candidate for the MoC is when Dean says "because I'm a killer'. I can't remember Dean killing a human being before he took on the Mark, unless meatsuits count, and if that is the case then Sam is also a killer. Is it because Dean felt so responsible for Kevin's death that he decided he was a killer?  Gods I hope that's not why he was a candidate for the Mark. But even if that is the case, that Dean's view of himself as being a killer that made him MoC worthy does not make him demon-worthy. 

 

But what I would buy, 100% is that the DOP (demon-in-process) from being in Hell for 40 years was pinged by the Mark and that is why Dean was worthy...not because he had killed monsters that may or may not have deserved to be killed or because he killed human beings that are murderers and rapists.  Once more, Dean's time in Hell SHOULD be a major factor here with demon!Dean and yet......NOTHING.  Sigh...

 

Sam and Cas saved Dean from being a demon, but that hasn't seemed to actually help Dean all that much. In some ways it's actually worse.  Dean didn't slaughter humans as a demon other than Lester that we know of.

 

If Dean's issues are because he has so much self-loathing then all the love in the world won't matter until Dean learns to love himself more. Or to at least value himself beyond blunt instrument ...like he did way back when. To some degree I think the show is saying that Dean is a demon and born-killer because he doesn't love himself.  If he doesn't love himself because of what happened to him and what he did in Hell or if the act of selling his soul for Sam's life in the first place was actually an act of self-loathing and fear of being alone like his decision to let Sam be possessed was said to be, then I think the show MUST revisit Dean's Hell time to  solve Dean's problem.

 

I suppose Jensen is really to blame for all of this when I think about it. His incredible talent works for and against him. I think it results to some degree in lazy writing because they think he'll just make it work and 99.9 % of the time that is indeed the case.  But there are times where even he can't do enough to make the narrative or lack thereof with Dean work.  

 

And since apparently Carver just let Jensen play demon!Dean as he saw fit, then why not write more of that for him. I mean is it going to take Jensen becoming a full on writer along with director!Jensen and actor!Jensen for Dean to have a full on narrative that let's Dean save himself from himself? 

Edited December 12, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

Well, I think the one thing we can be sure of is they want to do things in a way that we don't expect (per Jensen, talking about advice from Kim Manners).

I think Dean is an unreliable narrator on why he was worthy. I don't think Cain actually told us.  I think Crowley may know more but he's not talking.

 

Since we are going to see Cain, there's a great opportunity to understand a lot of this.  I just hope we get some insight.

[catrox14]

I think Jensen was referring to acting choices mostly which is why he chose to remove the caring from Dean instead of making him all "grrrr argghhhh angry".  That unfortunately doesn't address the writing of Dean and what TPTB want to do with him eventually. 

 

As to whether Cain agreed that Dean was a killer, he did.

 

DEAN:What are you talking about?

CAIN:The mark can be transferred to someone who's worthy.

DEAN:You mean a killer like you?

CAIN:Yes.
DEAN:Can I use it to kill that bitch?
CAIN:Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.

DEAN: Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at "kill the bitch".

CAIN:Good luck, Dean. You're gonna to need it.

 

So is Cain an unreliable narrator about Dean since he believed they were connected from the start? Which BTW...has the show bothered to refer back to the boys being descendents of Cain and Abel?

[supposebly]

 

I think that's because, for Dean, love = protection, and if Sam is saying that he wouldn't protect him, that's Sam saying he doesn't love him, and if Sam is saying he doesn't care about or want Dean's (over)protection, that's Sam saying he doesn't care about or want Dean's love for him. What Sam is *trying* to communicate, imo, is that he respects Dean enough to respect his wishes (so Sam wouldn't "protect" him by overriding those wishes), and he wants Dean's respect in return (and so doesn't want Dean to "protect" him by not allowing him to take off the (metaphorical) training wheels). But imo they're constantly talking past each other, so Dean feels unloved and unprotected, and Sam feels disrespected and distrusted. Honestly, I have no idea how they can resolve that.

 

I could kiss that post! Summing up 9 years of drama between them in one post!

[AwesomO4000]

I don't think I articulated my thoughts very well.

 

My issue is not that I am incapable of imagining that Dean's downturn  was due to Hell experience, but more that the show never SHOWED it. And it especially pronounced now that Dean was turned into an actual demon many years later.

 

I can head!canon that Dean doesn't like to  talk about his issues but that doesn't mean the people in his life should have been allowed to forget it or worse, use it against him.  I would have appreciated a conversation between Sam and Bobby expressing their overwhelming concern for Dean's mental and emotional well-being even if Dean didn't want to talk about anymore.  To me, Dean not wanting to talk about it, does not absolve the show from ignoring it in general or without any depth.  If Sam's experience had been vague references like Dean's it would at least have felt like a choice by the showrunners to keep Hell and Hell experiences left to the viewers minds eyes.

 

They didn't write into the dialogue, they didn't show him breaking in Hell, they didn't show him doing bad things to other souls in Hell, we never saw him suffer whilst in Hell. I suppose if they had never spent a virtual season + on Sam's referring to his Hell experience along with making it explicit on screen via showing him without a soul doing bad things, then getting re-souled and actually showing his mental breakdown and Halluciferations, and flames around his head and then putting himself back together again it would not bother me at all.  Even as a Dean-leaning girl, I'd be saying the same thing if the situation was reversed.

 

I was actually glad for this myself, because for me it was a nice change that we got to see inside Sam's head, but to your other concern: no they didn't show us, but I felt that we knew mostly about it through Dean and through other characters who knew and/or were there. This included Uriel, Alastair, Anna, and Castiel as well as Dean himself. I was okay with them not showing it, because I can understand why perhaps they didn't: showing Dean in hell actually torturing other souls would likely be too real. And I think they wanted their cake and eat it too - i.e. they wanted Dean to break and go slightly "bad", but they didn't really want to "go there" with Dean, so as to keep Dean the "good son". My theory is that's partially why they had Sam go really dark and be crappy to Dean - so that even though Dean did this somewhat dark thing, Sam would still be worse. Therefor we got a previously sympathetic Sam who had been believably telling Dean "you held out longer than anyone would have, Dean" now saying "boo hoo" just in time for Dean's reveal that he broke the seal - where they also gave the reveal of Sam drinking Ruby's blood to "even it up" (or make it worse). Sam's hell experiences, on the other hand, could be shown without having Sam torturing people, and they were basically also revealed through Sam - since the Lucifer hallucinations were actually Sam.

 

I also felt that we at least got Dean's motivation in season 4. Sam's was all over the damn place with much of the emotional revelation happening more offscreen than even Dean's hell experience - which we at least heard about why he broke and what he did. Biggest example: why the hell did Sam start drinking demon blood in the first place? To me that's kind of an important step in what Sam turned into in season 4. I would've like to have known that emotional tipping point that got him there - and then what made him decide to stop at some point? The supposed explanation of why he started again was beyond lame and nonsensical, so at least we could've had why he started in the first place. But nope - and we didn't even know what "it" (the blood drinking) was until 16 episodes in even though that was kind of an important piece of what was going on in Sam's head.

 

As for Sam and Bobby worrying about Dean - that's another reason I like season 7 so much: we finally got some conversations where that actually happened. People can say what they want about Sera, but she gave some good concern for Dean conversations during that season. Most were with Dean, but there was that one Bobby/Sam conversation in the car - I think during "How to Win Friends..."

 

Dean's Hell time IMO should be revisited since the advent of demon!Dean. I still don't really know why Dean was specifically a candidate for the MoC other than him believing he is a killer just because he made some terrible decisions. How much smarter and more meaningful would it have been for the show to tie Dean's candidacy for Mark of Cain to his time in Hell? Theoretically  he was a demon-in-process because he had been tortured for 30 years and tortured for 10 years.

 

    Instead we have gotten depressed, alcoholic Dean who violates his brother's agency to save his life and the result is a dead Kevin and a bitter resentful Sam which spins Dean into further depression and viewing himself as poison so much so that he allies with Crowley to find a way to get vengeance on Gadreel and Abbaddon via the First Blade. But then the only reason they give for Dean being a candidate for the MoC is when Dean says "because I'm a killer'. I can't remember Dean killing a human being before he took on the Mark, unless meatsuits count, and if that is the case then Sam is also a killer. Is it because Dean felt so responsible for Kevin's death that he decided he was a killer?  Gods I hope that's not why he was a candidate for the Mark. But even if that is the case, that Dean's view of himself as being a killer that made him MoC worthy does not make him demon-worthy.

  

I look at this a little differently as I thought that the show in it's usual way gave a hint as to why Dean was worthy of the mark - and it had little to do with Dean being a killer per se. If the reason Dean was worthy was because he was a killer, then why the difference in the legend of Cain and Able? To me that's the key: in the original legend Cain is a killer, so the change that he did it to actually save Able means something to me. To me it's strongly hinting that Dean wasn't worthy of the mark because he was a killer - he was worthy because he was willing to sacrifice to save his brother. He went to hell so Sam wouldn't be dead... similar to Cain had to become a demon to bargain for saving his brother. Both stories involved saving a brother, and both involved making a "bargain" and sacrificing themselves - literally their soul. Dean's hell stint was relevant in that he had suffered for his brother - making him worthy in Cain's eyes, but the most important thing had to do with the deal in my opinion and Dean's willingness to sacrifice even his soul to save his brother. And he would still do it - as shown by saying he would do it all over again even though Kevin died in order to save Sam. So again, like Cain, Dean was willing to kill (by proxy in terms of Kevin) to save his brother.

 

That was my interpretation anyway.

 

And I also think that having to bring up Dean's hell experience means by extension bringing up the deal.... and for some reason, the show seems to be unwilling to do that anymore.

[Iguana]

This is *exactly* what I feel happened and everything fits in with this whole interpretation, IMO. There are no character puzzles and why did he do/say that or seeming incidences of character assassination if you see it this way.

 

I always go back to "Dark Side of the Moon" when I think of this:

 

The scene where Sam says "I didn't get the crusts cut off my PB&J. I just don't see family the way you do."

 

And Dean, so anguished/angry/upset, retorts, "But *I'm* your family! It's supposed to be you and me against the world!"

 

And Sam says "It is!" because to him he hasn't said anything to the contrary.

 

And Dean says "Is it?" because to Dean, he most certainly has.

 

To me, that conversation just crystalizes the whole *talking past each other*/*fundamental misunderstanding* thing they have going on.

 

Dean sees what Sam is saying as not loving and supporting him and having his back, but that's not what Sam thinks he's saying, and he is unable to say it properly the way he wants to, so he gives up and falls back into Dean's version and messes it up every time, *lets him down,* because he can't do it Dean's way and can't show Dean in his own way without Dean mis-interpreting it. And that's without demon-blood, run-over dogs, or anything else from the outside *also* messing them up.

 

What Dean equates with love, his "code words," so to speak, aren't the same as Sam's, but that doesn't mean that Sam feels any less love for Dean, he's just not using the right code. "Family" in particular is Dean-speak for love, but "family" means over-bearing and over-protective and disrespectful for Sam. For Sam, "love" is love and it doesn't need "family" to define it. When Sam rejects "family" that doesn't mean he is rejecting Dean's love, but that's how Dean hears it.

 

To me, this is where a lot of the tragedy comes from, because the usual way to solve misunderstandings, "why don't they just talk to each other," won't really work with Dean and Sam because they aren't speaking the same language. Sam is going a long way this season to get Dean to understand him in a non-verbal way, he hasn't already given up trying or found something to be resentful for (which is a sign of his maturity), and that's a very encouraging sign to me. That is how they are going to resolve it, if Sam gets time enough to break through, if the MoC and other outside forces give him that time.

 

Rue, this is a very interesting and insightful way of looking at the Winchesters.  Part of its appeal is that, viewed through this lens, the asshole quotient for both Sam and Dean is significantly lower.  That is why, even though I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I may end up clinging to this theory for all I'm worth, as I'm still having problems with stuff that happened in season 8 between the brothers.

[AwesomO4000]

And then please have some fucking dialogue on how NOONE else could have. Sam gets that all the time, now it`s Dean`s turn.

 

I disagree with you here. Sam does get some of these, but often it's couched in "If anyone can..." terms - which what does that even mean? And sometimes when Sam gets the no one else could have, it's in reference to something bad - like starting the apocalypse. (Gabriel is one of the main proponents of this).

 

Dean has gotten a couple of the "no one else could have," moments but usually they are smaller scenes, definitely only for Dean (not ambiguous "if anyone can..."), and from someone who actually knows Dean (i.e. Sam) rather than just rah rah "of course he can" - until Sam doesn't, and then it's "well I guess there wasn't much hope anyway." (Which really? That's not what you seemed to be saying a moment ago.)

 

And for me a "no one else can" statement means far more when it comes from one of the brothers to the other, because they are the ones who know each other the best. Almost everyone else at some point, despite good intentions, has been shown to either misread or not know them very well.

[supposebly]

I just rewatched Sex and Violence and it's not quite as one-sided as I remembered it to be. Dean's low blow to Sam about Madison came actually before he got infected. So, he gets no pass from me there. While his accusations under the spell where more about the lies, Sam's were terrible.

 

I had a thought though. I was wondering if Sam's season 4 arc, beside the road paved with good intentions, was also in some way supposed to be his second emancipation. First from John, and then from his second father, Dean.

 

How he claims that Dean is holding him back, that's something one would say to a parent. I certainly have. Of course, I was about 17 and wanted to go become a hairdresser (I lasted about a week). Granted, I never had a symbiotic relationship to my parents.

 

I think my point is, his father figure came back and he can't reconcile what he had to do to get him back (unsuccessfully to boot) with what his father figure expects from him.

 

I don't see it as an excuse for the terrible things he said, just a thought I had when forcing myself to watch it.

 

I still don't like the episode because I still think it puts a rather muddled and out-of-the-blue notion into Sam's mouth about Dean being weak. A few episodes earlier, he is worried about Dean instead. And it makes Dean look like all he wants from Sam is someone he can control. He comes off like John in that regard.

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean has gotten a couple of the "no one else could have," moments but usually they are smaller scenes

 

At this point in the show, I`m just completely sick of Dean only getting the small-fry versions. It`s not good enough for me anymore. I want the big, epic scenes, the epic world-saving all alone in the Season Finale, the epic Chosen One-ness and the big acknowledgment.

 

Right now I`m like: screw the small scenes. Make the Mark of Cain epic. And give Dean a full-scale world saving redemption. Have it in dialogue how his strength allowed him to contain the Mark as he did and that noone else could have. Of course have it be validated onscreen as well. Don`t insult me with crap like the speech in Trial and Error how Dean is a great hunter, a genius at lore and far more than a grunt and, after already showing him as totally failing as a hunter five minutes before that, gleefully go on to make him Dumbie McDumberson at lore and then turn him into something even a grunt would laugh at and mock. In short, don`t sell me battery acid as fine wine, show.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

 

Right now I`m like: screw the small scenes. Make the Mark of Cain epic. And give Dean a full-scale world saving redemption.

While it's completely reasonable to want this. It's not at all consistent with the intimate/personal approach this season. So, if it doesn't happen, I'm don't think the show dropped the ball if it doesn't match these expectations**.  Where they are headed with this narrative is pretty straightforward. A big epic cosmic full-scale world saving moment this year seems highly unlikely. 

 

Honestly, IMO it's a bit like Destiel.  There's perfectly reasonable to want that, but no reason to expect it. And I think those who call the show a failure because it refuses to do Destiel are being unfair IMO.

 

**I do think it's fair to criticize if you see at a series-level a lack of parity between the impact of individual redemption arcs, but within this season, I think world-saving is likely misaligned expectations.  JMO YMMV.

Edited December 13, 2014 by SueB

[Rammfan]

Rue, this is a very interesting and insightful way of looking at the Winchesters.  Part of its appeal is that, viewed through this lens, the asshole quotient for both Sam and Dean is significantly lower.  That is why, even though I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I may end up clinging to this theory for all I'm worth, as I'm still having problems with stuff that happened in season 8 between the brothers.

 

Well, thank you for that. I appreciate it, but it wasn't Rue who said it, it was me, Rammfan :D

[Iguana]

Oh crap. I'm very sorry Rammfan. That's what I get for posting in a hurry. It's a really good post and you deserve proper credit for it.

[Aeryn13]

 

**I do think it's fair to criticize if you see at a series-level a lack of parity between the impact of individual redemption arcs, but within this season, I think world-saving is likely misaligned expectations.

 

I do think it`s a series-level failure. Big time. However, I also know with Carver`s mumblings about personal arcs and no cohesive plot etc, I can kiss any chances of that happening goodbye. It won`t happen, I know that.

 

The thing is just, it makes me MORE mad. When it was Sam`s turn to go beige-side, then it was all fine and dandy to have the Chosen One-ness coming out of his butt with the big world-saving. For Dean? Eh, lets not even bother to give the character something epic. Bury it somewhere in a disjointed mess without a real plot and hey, if the characters gets trashed too much? Whatever, too. What a surprise. 

 

The writers choose how to approach this so "it can`t happen in this Season" is not an acceptable excuse to me. If they wanted to for Dean, they could make it happen. If it was Sam, they WOULD make it happen IMO. Even this Season. That`s why I see it as crap.

[Pete Martell]

For me a big epic moment isn't worth much if it's only epic on paper. I thought the show did a mediocre-to-poor job building up most of Sam's "hero" moments in season 5, and the character was severely damaged in the process. To me it wasn't worth the cost of one or two scenes they couldn't even take seriously (with that tacky "Cas died how hilarious" scene right in the middle of the not-so-epic field hissing contest), especially since by that time Lucifer had been revealed (in my opinion) as less of a formidable villain and more of a whiny baby.

 

I don't really care that much about who does or doesn't save the world, as much as I just want to see Dean find an identity and be happy with himself. I know it probably won't ever happen, but it's what I hope for.

 

I also don't feel like Dean's ever been a character whose main arc was saving the world. He's always had a personal journey.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Aeryn13]

 

I also don't feel like Dean's ever been a character whose main arc was saving the world. He's always had a personal journey.

 

See for me "personal journey" is code-word on this show for "less important sidekick". That is what it ultimately means, that is what it boils down to.

 

You can make a personal journey epic or rather, have a personal journey, with an epos. I mean Sam going from "I`m afraid I`m going dorkside" to "world-saving" has been a personal journey as well. So basically, it was both. How well it was executed is another matter but the gist of it was both personal and epic. So why should I be content with Dean getting the crumbs from the table in only getting one part, the lesser part and even that is mangled up.

 

 

as much as I just want to see Dean find an identity and be happy with himself.

 

I gotta say for a drama I might - barely - accept this but in a genre show if all a character journey amounts to is that, with ten (or more) years of storytelling, I feel like it was a bloody waste of time. Like, is that seriously all there is? Is that all the character amounted to? Especially when he was fine enough when the show started. 

 

A former villain finding redemption might be something else but Dean while he did have issues at the start of the show, wasn`t THAT bad off. Only over the course of ten years they broke him down to nothing and if it ends nowhere else than roughly at the starting point, why bother? Why have the character in the first place if only just going in a meaningless circle? 

 

I laughed in that old comedy Seinfeld when they pitched a show "about nothing" but well, that was because it was so ridiculous. And you can kinda pull it off with a comedy to some degree. But a show with two characters shouldn`t seriously be about "one`s epic journey of herodom who saves the world" while the other characters is basically about nothing. 

Edited December 13, 2014 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

also don't feel like Dean's ever been a character whose main arc was saving the world. He's always had a personal journey.

 

 

I can't agree at all that Dean was not interested in saving the world. Dean uttered the shows tagline "Saving people. Hunting things. Family Business". Saving people from monsters and demons essentially IS saving the world ...one person at a time. 

 

And that was still personal for both Dean and Sam . " Dad went on a hunting trip and has been missing for days". That dual personal journey was branched into Sam's personal journey of vengeance for Jess' death and being the Chosen one. Dean's became finishing John's personal journey of vengeance for Mary's death and Save Sammy or Kill Sammy. (once again THANKS JOHN).

 

When the show decided to move away from the smaller intimate"saving people, hunting things" version of saving the world to saving the world all at one time,  Sam and Dean both had personal and epic journeys since they were both set up and promised to be the Chosen Vessels in this epic arc.  They played it that way throughout s5 until PoNR when we got Adam to fill in that part for Dean. I felt baited and switched with Dean's personal and epic arc of saving the world being truncated to support Sam's personal and epic arc of redemption by saving the world alone.  

[SueB]

I don't the show could handle another Apocalypse. I do think Heaven is not squared away 100% and too many demons walk the earth. But Kripke's 5 year story spent the last two years with the Apocalypse arc.  Perhaps TPTB felt (and I know I  feel this way) that stopping the Leviathans was as close to equivalent as it gets. And that was fairly driven by Dean.  It DID save the world. Just not with psychic powers.  And in both the Apocalypse and the Leviathan Soylent Green** plot, both brothers played a huge part. It's WHO paid the ultimate sacrifice at the very end. Sam into the pit. Dean blasted to Purgatory.  That's as close to tit-for-tat as I think they would try.  

 

Then again, someone could still die when the show is over. I think the boys (J2) want a Butch and Sundance moment.

 

**If there are any youngsters out there: Soylent Green was a '70's Chuck Heston movie where the people ended up as food. 

 

 

I can't agree at all that Dean was not interested in saving the world.

ITA. Besides his lament of "how many times to we have to keep saving this planet?" in mid-S7, his lovely hallucinated therapy sessions discussed his belief that he, personally, had to save all 6 billion people.  And honestly, it's why IMO he was ready to say yes. The Angels put it all on him: say yes to Micheal or get The End. He chose to say "no" and found a different way.  And in terms of sacrifice, Dean would MUCH MUCH rather have jumped into that pit that Sam.  Like x1000000000.  So his sacrifice was to lose Sam.  These guys getting killed saving people is what they EXPECT. It's just a matter of where and when. 

Edited December 13, 2014 by SueB

[catrox14]

For some reason, your sentence about Dean saying he felt he had to save the planet in s6 pinged me with him saying to John's grave in s2 "Why do we have to save the world"? Even back then with the wish verse parts, Dean still thought he had to save the world.

Dean was sent to Purgatory by mistake. He wasn't planning to go there so to me that was "sacrifice by happenstance" to me that didn't feel like the grand epic "I've got this" kind of sacrifice Sam had twice.

As much as it will break my soul to have Dean really most sincerely die in all incarnations, I do think that is the appropriate ending for him SO LONG as he chooses dying to save the world and knows his value to the world and to Mary and John and Sam before he dies.

Edited December 13, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Dean was sent to Purgatory by mistake. He wasn't planning to go there so to me that was "sacrifice by happenstance" to me that didn't feel like the grand epic "I've got this" kind of sacrifice Sam had twice.

 

Dean didn't know he'd end up in purgatory, but he did think that he was likely going to die (as did eventually Cas.) They both said as much in Dean's discussion with Castiel the night before. Dean mentions jumping "into the jaws of death" and understands if Cas doesn't want to go with him but he needs a "wing man." Cas later decides that such a mission is exactly what he should do - either die in the attempt or die fixing his mistake and that he sees being brought back is a punishment (which likely is how we got the Castiel wants to stay in purgatory plot point in season 8). In their discussion and Dean's plan, it was to be him and Cas doing the deed and making the sacrifice. So even though it wasn't planned by Dean that he'd go to purgatory, he very much planned on being dead/making that sacrifice: "jumping into the jaws of death." However - see below - Dean's somewhat fatalistic view in season 7 was maybe perhaps what takes away a bit from the epicness? Dean had the big sacrifice, but he was really depressed and down on himself, so maybe it seemed less epic and more "well, ehn, might as well do something with my crappy life." Which is why I thought purgatory set Dean up so nicely - to give him something to show him he was awesome... fumbled execution there, for me, because even after Dean fought through purgatory and saved Castiel, he still couldn't believe it and reconstructed the story in his mind so that he (Dean) was the one who "failed." ::sigh:: (I hated that almost as much as what they did to Sam).

 

And in the case of Sam, with "twice" do you mean the trials as the second one? Because that's almost kind of worse then that Sam doesn't do it. Kind of like - "you're right, Dean. Me dying's not worth it. I'm not gonna do it." Not really heroic at all, and in the end not even a sacrifice. (As if Sam's character wasn't damaged enough in season 8 - good point about communication that Rammfan had notwithstanding. Sam still abandoned Kevin and didn't do anything about the lingering leviathans, so there was still some major character damage in my opinion. Now made worse by having Sam give up on the mission in the final moment of truth.)

 

And interestingly, the way that Sam's character has been redeemed for me is in this season - in what he's trying to do for Dean. And to me that means much more than any grand "save the world" sacrifice. In fact if Sam had some grand sacrifice, I'd almost consider it a cop out. All I want Sam to be able to do is finally at least have a big role in saving his brother this one time after failing so many times.* Dean's gotten to save Sam so many times. I want it to be Sam's turn.

 

And actually in a way - as I believe I've mentioned before somewhere - Dean having some huge heroic sacrifice right now isn't going to do much for advancing/changing his character for me. If Dean doesn't think he's worthy of anything and/or thinks he's crap, sacrificing himself for the world isn't going to come across as much of a change for him. That's what he does already, all the time, because he often doesn't think he's worth it anymore and/or thinks that he deserves it. Any kind of world-saving sacrifice from Dean isn't going to mean as much to me unless Dean actually thinks something of himself first and knows he's worth something more - as catrox14 points out above with the "SO LONG as..." section -  And him finding that out supposedly like 10 seconds before he sacrifices would seem rushed and a cop out. I want it to be an organic thing for his character. But perhaps I'm asking too much.

 

* Since apparently un-demoning Dean was a temporary fix at best.

Edited December 13, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

And actually in a way - as I believe I've mentioned before somewhere - Dean having some huge heroic sacrifice right now isn't going to do much for advancing/changing his character for me. If Dean doesn't think he's worthy of anything and/or thinks he's crap, sacrificing himself for the world isn't going to come across as much of a change for him. That's what he does already, all the time, because he often doesn't think he's worth it anymore and/or thinks that he deserves it. Any kind of world-saving sacrifice from Dean isn't going to mean as much to me unless Dean actually thinks something of himself first and knows he's worth something more - as catrox14 points out above with the "SO LONG as..." section -  And him finding that out supposedly like 10 seconds before he sacrifices would seem rushed and a cop out. I want it to be an organic thing for his character. But perhaps I'm asking too much.

 

Tbh I have no interest at all in seeing someone sacrifice themselves to save the world. Who needs another martyr? I'm not even sure that martyrdom is noble or a good thing. What I also don't want to see is Dean de facto committing suicide (by world-saving-sacrifice). That seems like the saddest, worst place his arc could go, other people getting saved in the process or not. Who knows where the show is now in terms of this, but I think the point of Sam not going through with the Trials was that he listened to Dean's argument that they could do good work on earth and that he shouldn't commit suicide-by-apocalypse or suicide-by-martyrdom. I'm fine with Dean trying to protect people *and* himself at the same time, I don't need it to be everyone *or* Dean and for Dean to be like, "OK, I'll just die then."

 

Also, Dean taking on the MoC was him putting his soul on the line (which is about as huge as a personal sacrifice can get imo) in order to kill Abaddon, and it's still a danger. He might be sacrificing his soul right now because of what he did to win that fight. He says in First Born that he knew his meeting with Cain was all a setup on Crowley's  part, and he knew at that time that Cain was a demon, etc etc etc, but he was going to do whatever it took, so he didn't balk for a second at taking the MoC. I have no doubt that Dean would always do whatever it took, that's always been something he's struggled *against.* That was made explicit in the S1 finale, and has brought up mannnnnnnny times since then. That's what his whole "I'm a killer" thing is about imo, that when push comes to shove he'll always be able to do the hard thing or the dirty work, and he wonders *why* he's even capable of that. What scares him is that he *will* always do what it takes, not that he'll balk. So character growth for him would actually be being able to say "NOPE, I'm letting someone else do that dirty work." Most especially if that "someone else" is Sam, who he still guards more closely than anything (even his own soul!).

[Aeryn13]

 

So character growth for him would actually be being able to say "NOPE, I'm letting someone else do that dirty work." Most especially if that "someone else" is Sam, who he still guards more closely than anything (even his own soul!).

 

I completely disagree. To me, that is the progression from being a hero to a selfish coward. And I`m not talking Dean and Sam here, I`m talking someone who is always willing to do what`s necessary in the line of duty, even the hard tasks, going to someone who pushes others into the line of fire. I find that disgusting. So, if we keep that "character growth"  away from Dean, I`d be very happy.

 

I`m in no way a Sam-fan but even I don`t think that`s somethng he does either. Because narratively, that`s what the weasely bad guys do. And not even the main bad ones but the pathetic henchguys. Yikes.

 

 

And interestingly, the way that Sam's character has been redeemed for me is in this season - in what he's trying to do for Dean. And to me that means much more than any grand "save the world" sacrifice.

 

But Sam still already had his big world sacrifice/save hero moment. And Dean didn`t get anything on that same level. Just as Sam had the multiple-episodes arcs, the Chosen One-state and the mytharc plots and all that. If Dean already had all that as well, it wouldn`t be such a problem for me now either. I could be way more magnanimous with the big plots and hero-dom going to others.

 

In reverse I`d be totally fine with the POV, emotional feels and guest star connections et all going to other characters. It never meant as much to me in the first place and Dean had plenty. I`d trade it all a way in a heartbeat for what Sam got in the past.     

Edited December 13, 2014 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

I completely disagree. To me, that is the progression from being a hero to a selfish coward. And I`m not talking Dean and Sam here, I`m talking someone who is always willing to do what`s necessary in the line of duty, even the hard tasks, going to someone who pushes others into the line of fire. I find that disgusting. So, if we keep that "character growth"  away from Dean, I`d be very happy.

 

I`m in no way a Sam-fan but even I don`t think that`s somethng he does either. Because narratively, that`s what the weasely bad guys do. And not even the main bad ones but the pathetic henchguys. Yikes.

 

I don't think either of them "pushes others into the line of fire" or that either is a pathetic henchmen. Come on. Your point seems to be that you don't want character growth, you just want Dean to be the biggest martyr to ever have martyred. Fine, I guess. Maybe that'll happen and he'll get his 72 virgins. That's not something I would find heroic, though. One man *can't* save the world, and arrogance like that and thinking too big have been the downfall of all the *villains* on this show. The heroes knew from the beginning, and are now in the process of re-learning, to see the value in each individual life. Dean proved he had learned that when he tried to stop Sam from killing himself for the Trials. In addition, Dean as an individual character has also spent a decade learning to separate his value as a means (i.e., as a tool) and as an ends (i.e., as a human being), and him going out as the big tool that ends some random apocalypse or another would make all that meaningless. And frankly I don't even think it's a practical possibility on this show given how it deals with death.

 

Realistically, as long as Dean has a human soul, he won't/can't be killed forever, because we've never seen a way that a human soul can be completely destroyed (as opposed to sent to an afterlife). The only way that he could die for good is if his soul becomes demonic again and he's shot with a demon-killing bullet from the Colt or stabbed to death with the demon knife. So the only possibility for ~true martyrdom~, that ends in an actual "forever" death and not just "sent-to-heaven/hell-do-not-pass-go," within the mythology of the show's world, is for him to somehow be martyred by becoming a demon and then being murdered (for good) as one. Which isn't something that I personally would ever want to see, nor is it something that's likely to come to pass.

[Aeryn13]

 

Your point seems to be that you don't want character growth, you just want Dean to be the biggest martyr to ever have martyred. 

 

Is Sam the biggest Martyr who ever Martyred? Because all I want for Dean is a moment like Sam got it in Suck Song. If that was not too much to ask for one character, I fail to see how it is for another.

 

In terms of character growth, I`m not against it. Just not in the way of "eh, this time I`ll let the hard tasks be carried out by someone else". I would never root for a character who does that and I like that Dean doesn`t do it. That has IMO nothing to do with arrogance but to me heroism, the instinct to want to help other people, possibly spare them from having to compromise themselves.

 

It doesn`t have to always work out for one person to sacrifice themselves, that`s fine. Having help and assistance is fine. Team-work is fine. But I would never ever t Dean to lose that heroic instinct. And "eh, this time I`ll let Sam/some other person do the dirty work because I`ve done enough"? Not my idea of heroic.

 

The heroes knew from the beginning, and are now in the process of re-learning, to see the value in each individual life. Dean proved he had learned that when he tried to stop Sam from killing himself for the Trials.

 

Which, speaking of, that was neither. If they had aborted the trials with the reasoning of "hey, we learned that something bad might come from this, like all the evil souls trapped on Earth", that would have been a-okay. But you don`t undertake a heroic quest that you actually think will benefit humanity and then weasel out at the 11th hour to not die. That is the opposite of heroism. So it was completely unacceptable as a motivation for me. 

 

If Dean had the one in Sam`s place, he `would have thought death worth it. And, positing closing hell permanently would have actually been purely beneficial to humanity - I don`t believe it but for argument`s sake - then hell, yes, Dean`s death would have been worth it. Sam`s too. Dean`s problem here was a pathological need to not allow Sam`s death. Which made him act in ways totally beneath him. That is what he needs to grow out of. I already have a show full of protagonists that go "fuck others, us first" and that`s fine for that show but not for Supernatural because it hasn`t been set up like this.   

[Pete Martell]

I can't agree at all that Dean was not interested in saving the world. Dean uttered the shows tagline "Saving people. Hunting things. Family Business". Saving people from monsters and demons essentially IS saving the world ...one person at a time. 

 

And that was still personal for both Dean and Sam . " Dad went on a hunting trip and has been missing for days". That dual personal journey was branched into Sam's personal journey of vengeance for Jess' death and being the Chosen one. Dean's became finishing John's personal journey of vengeance for Mary's death and Save Sammy or Kill Sammy. (once again THANKS JOHN).

 

When the show decided to move away from the smaller intimate"saving people, hunting things" version of saving the world to saving the world all at one time,  Sam and Dean both had personal and epic journeys since they were both set up and promised to be the Chosen Vessels in this epic arc.  They played it that way throughout s5 until PoNR when we got Adam to fill in that part for Dean. I felt baited and switched with Dean's personal and epic arc of saving the world being truncated to support Sam's personal and epic arc of redemption by saving the world alone.  

 

To me it's never been about the epic heroic journey for Dean. Dean had personal reasons for hunting - to avenge his mother, then both his parents. To please his father. To try to save or help the individual people he met along the way. Sam, once he got past wanting revenge for Jess, is the one who was much more focused on the broader idea of what it means to be a hero. Both of them wanted to kill Lilith in season 4, but Sam's focus was more on power and ego, whereas Dean's was more on just getting the job done. 

 

Even in more recent seasons, you can see some of the differences. Sam connected to the MoL because of history and lore, while Dean really had no strong interest until he saw it for himself and connected on a personal level.

 

Being a "hero" is a mask Dean only wore to try to hide who he truly was. "I'm a hero!" he muttered in that crappy high school episode I only liked when he was wearing shorts. He knew he wasn't a hero, that this life wasn't about heroes. It never will be. Deep down, he just wants to be safe and happy.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

As much as it will break my soul to have Dean really most sincerely die in all incarnations, I do think that is the appropriate ending for him SO LONG as he chooses dying to save the world and knows his value to the world and to Mary and John and Sam before he dies.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the show ends, but I hope it doesn't. It would just reduce Dean's value one last time, once and for all, as an object. For me to be satisfied with the show's end, he has to live and try to spend the rest of his days making a life of his own.

[AwesomO4000]

Is Sam the biggest Martyr who ever Martyred? Because all I want for Dean is a moment like Sam got it in Suck Song. If that was not too much to ask for one character, I fail to see how it is for another.

 

I know you disagree, but in my opinion, Dean got pretty darn close to that when he took on killing Dick Roman and all that came from that. Dean knew it would likely kill him, because he discussed more than once with Castiel exactly that. And when he did go through with it - without a second thought and without messing up, and thereby saved the world - it sent him to purgatory. In purgatory Dean went on an epic, heroic journey where he earned his own way out of purgatory, would have saved Castiel, and earned the respect of a vampire. The one small difference was that Dean did it without super powers which - to me - almost makes it even more heroic.

 

In contrast, Sam screwed up big time in his saving the world endeavor in "Swan Song", and even if you don't give Dean any credit there (I give him at the very least 40%), there was at least a huge amount of luck involved in Sam's "win" without which the world may have potentially been screwed. Sam then went to the cage where he was Lucifer's plaything for 180 years - we don't see or hear of him, say, heroically fighting to keep Adam safe or anything like that* - and he only got out because Dean saved him. Which made that at the least the third time Dean's saved Sam in a major way. So if you really are promoting equality with the characters, is it really too much of me to ask that Sam get to actually succeed in - or at least successfully help in - saving Dean in a major way at least once before Dean also gets to do the one thing Sam has had somewhat of his own on this show? As you say, if it is good enough for one character, why isn't it good enough for the other? Why does Dean get to do all of the saving while Sam is relegated to failing epically (season 3, 4, and 9 **) or "hitting a dog" all the damn time? Even this latest effort where I thought Sam had a partial win - helping get Dean un-demonized - turned out to not really even be a save as Dean is still affected, and may even be worse now with just the mark.

 

Personally I think with Sam's one save and Dean's close enough save plus all of the major ways he's saved Sam and Castiel, to me, they are pretty even. Giving Dean some huge win on top of that while Sam gets nothing else - or worse yet tries and fails yet again to save Dean when Dean sacrifices - to me puts Dean over the top, not makes it even: which to me I wouldn't even mind except that Sam is also usually the one to get the "betray and/or say really crappy things to your brother in order to create brother angst" storyline as well, so Sam's already got a huge disadvantage to overcome.

 

Now what I really want is for them to have a win together.

 

* I am mostly playing Devil's advocate - no pun intended - here. Personally, for me, even if it was mostly the power of love and Lucifer's righteous indignation that beat Lucifer, Sam still made the choice to sacrifice and I credit him for that. I also don't blame him for being Lucifer's bitch, and Sam's taking on those hell memories in season 6's finale was noble (just not world saving or Dean saving in the end noble). My point in describing Sam's stint this way is to show that, in comparison, what Dean accomplished in purgatory was shown as much more epic and more heroic with Dean kicking ass and doing his own saving as opposed to being the one saved.

 

** Arguably season 7 too, since Sam's efforts to help Dean out of his depression ultimately failed. Instead Dean's depression was apparently helped (temporarily) by killing crap in purgatory and befriending a vampire.

Edited December 14, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Demented Daisy]

 Even this latest effort where I thought Sam had a partial win - helping get Dean un-demonized - turned out to not really even be a save as Dean is still affected, and may even be worse now with just the mark.

 

Ugh, don't get me started.  He didn't kill a single human (as far as we know) as a demon, but he has killed how many as a human with the Mark?  So damn frustrating.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Pete Martell]

See for me "personal journey" is code-word on this show for "less important sidekick". That is what it ultimately means, that is what it boils down to.

 

You can make a personal journey epic or rather, have a personal journey, with an epos. I mean Sam going from "I`m afraid I`m going dorkside" to "world-saving" has been a personal journey as well. So basically, it was both. How well it was executed is another matter but the gist of it was both personal and epic. So why should I be content with Dean getting the crumbs from the table in only getting one part, the lesser part and even that is mangled up.

 

I gotta say for a drama I might - barely - accept this but in a genre show if all a character journey amounts to is that, with ten (or more) years of storytelling, I feel like it was a bloody waste of time. Like, is that seriously all there is? Is that all the character amounted to? Especially when he was fine enough when the show started. 

 

A former villain finding redemption might be something else but Dean while he did have issues at the start of the show, wasn`t THAT bad off. Only over the course of ten years they broke him down to nothing and if it ends nowhere else than roughly at the starting point, why bother? Why have the character in the first place if only just going in a meaningless circle? 

 

I laughed in that old comedy Seinfeld when they pitched a show "about nothing" but well, that was because it was so ridiculous. And you can kinda pull it off with a comedy to some degree. But a show with two characters shouldn`t seriously be about "one`s epic journey of herodom who saves the world" while the other characters is basically about nothing. 

 

To me that's what the character has always been. It's even laid out at the end of season 1 - Dean's not really fine once the cocky persona is removed. He's an abused child, trying to find his own voice. He's the one who stands up to John, who tells Sam he doesn't want to keep on the revenge quest, he just wants a family, and wants his family to be safe. 

 

The first scenes of the show set up Sam as someone that things happened to and Dean as someone we saw directly affected by those things. We saw what Dean lost (Sam also lost these things but never knew he lost them), and we saw how that affected him. He's never been allowed to have an identity, or to have a normal life (which is probably why he enjoys "normal" stuff that a lot of people would turn their nose up at). I think that his attempt at self-discovery has been his journey, moreso than crusades or quests. That's why I think the MoC story and even his being a demon mostly being about his internal pain makes sense. 

Ugh, don't get me started.  He didn't kill a single human (as far as we know) as a demon, but he has killed how many as a human with the Mark?  So damn frustrating.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

He killed Lester. 

[Demented Daisy]

True.  He was dead, anyway, though.  He made the deal, he was going to die.  So Demon Dean saved the life of the wife, the person he was actually supposed to kill.

 

Which makes me wonder....  Where does the audience draw the line?  How much can Dean do, under the influence of the Mark, that the audience will forgive?

Edited December 14, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[Pete Martell]

The show has deemphasized enough of the world around them that I'd guess the only things viewers might not forgive are if he kills Sam or Cas and is unapologetic about it.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Pete Martell

[DittyDotDot]

As long as it's the Mark that's controlling Dean (or his soul is twisted into a demon) I don't consider it Dean and can't hold it against him. I don't condone the behavior, but I also don't think Dean should be held responsible for things he did not actively do. Now, I do think he shouldn't have been so impetuous in taking on the Mark and realize none of it would've happened if he'd just asked one or maybe two questions first? Sure, but that's not exactly Dean's way, is it?

 

Oh, who am I kidding, I can't stay mad at our little ball of guilt. As long as he feels guilty about it, I probably won't hold it against him.

Edited December 14, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Yeah, it's a tough call, Ditty.  It's like a drunk driver -- he chose to get drunk and drive.  Everyone knows that your decision making abilities are impaired when you drink, but drivers are still held accountable for that bad decision.

 

But this is Dean we're talking about.  I find myself saying, "I don't blame Dean, I blame the writers."  Which is totally illogical, but when has anyone in the SPN fandom been entirely rational?  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Hey, I thought we agreed that logic and rational thought have no place here! ;)

[catrox14]

I guess to me Dean made a terrible decision that he thought was going to help him with the greater good of killing Abaddon. I can't find that at all equivalent to drunk driving.  Dean didn't know at all what would happen when he took on the Mark.  Drunk drivers know exactly that the will be impaired.

 

I'm actually a tad offended at this comparison

Edited December 14, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

As long as it's the Mark that's controlling Dean (or his soul is twisted into a demon) I don't consider it Dean and can't hold it against him. I don't condone the behavior, but I also don't think Dean should be held responsible for things he did not actively do. Now, I do think he shouldn't have been so impetuous in taking on the Mark and realize none of it would've happened if he'd just asked one or maybe two questions first. But that's not exactly Dean's way, is it?

 

Oh, who am I kidding, I can't stay mad at our little ball of guilt as long. As he feels guilty about it, I probably won't hold it against him.

 

That's why I said unapologetic. If he doesn't know what he's doing and is stunned and regrets it, I think people would probably be fine with it.

 

Hopefully we won't have to find out.

 

I guess it's a good thing the show no longer has any supporting cast, as one of them would probably die...

[SueB]

 

I can't stay mad at our little ball of guilt

Hee.  I love that description.

[Aeryn13]

 

Being a "hero" is a mask Dean only wore to try to hide who he truly was. "I'm a hero!" he muttered in that crappy high school episode I only liked when he was wearing shorts. He knew he wasn't a hero, that this life wasn't about heroes. It never will be. Deep down, he just wants to be safe and happy.

 

I couldn`t disagree more and quite frankly, I find this even offensive. Just because Dean doesn`t see himself as a hero or a big Chosen One on a quest doesn`t mean his life`s work is not worthy of the moniker. What, unless someone is full of himself, their heroic acts don`t count as such?

 

And I also disagree about this being a valuable journey or purpose, especially in a show like this. Even if people start out as mundane and nothing special to make a show/story about them, they will become extraordinary in some way. If Peter Parker had never been bit by a radioactive spider, there would be no comic serious about him because he would just be a random nerdy kid and that isn`t material for one.

 

And I`ve always greately disliked boiling down the show to "this is Sam`s story, seen through Dean`s eyes" because it basically admits that he is just a lower-tier sidekick. The character is interesting enough to have his own story. Always was. He can do more than narrate Sam`s. Or Cas. Or Crowley`s. Who are apparently all deemed worthy enough to have epic, mytharc stories. Ànd they are supporting cast.

 

 

 

In purgatory Dean went on an epic, heroic journey where he earned his own way out of purgatory, would have saved Castiel, and earned the respect of a vampire. The one small difference was that Dean did it without super powers which - to me - almost makes it even more heroic.

 

Thing is, I don`t remotely count Purgatory as an epic journey for Dean. It could have been but what it ended up was a couple of flashbacks that, while fun to watch, held no larger meaning to anything mythic and the story of Purgatory stopped being about Dean in ep 2, then the flashbacks were "the mystery of Castiel". After that was solved, it was dropped and never to be spoken off again until they sent Sam there on his super-trial to hop and skip through Purgatory.

 

I consider it ones of the most truncated Dean-stories in the show.

 

Equally, Season 7 and the Leviathans weren`t a Dean-story in my eyes. And the happenstance win with the assisstance of Castiel was not even remotely close to what Sam got with his Chosen One 100 % thing in 5.22

 

If I had to attribute percentages here, Sam got 100 % and Dean got 15 % of what I consider the "big moment". Giving the trials to Sam was just the final blow, to be honest. The second big hero`s quest introduced in the show and it goes to Sam again? Sorry, no matter the narrative excuses for it, that was IT for me.

 

I perked up a bit with the MOC being introduced but so far, it is all about how evil/dark/bad Dean is so I`m not really sure, they mean to give the character an actual redemption at the end. Let alone a  big one.

 

 

So if you really are promoting equality with the characters, is it really too much of me to ask that Sam get to actually succeed in - or at least successfully help in - saving Dean in a major way at least once before Dean also gets to do the one thing Sam has had somewhat of his own on this show? 

 

I wouldn`t mind if I saw them as unequal in such a way. But I`m truly, honestly seeing as Sam is at the finish line and Dean at the starting point. So, the only disparity that remains is for Dean. He is the only one who needs to catch up, Sam already has all the laurels.  

 

In terms of brother`s saves, well, Dean`s are also tainted, aren`t they? He made the deal - that was wrong. He gave Sam his soul back - Ì`ve read enough "that was rape" meta, he asked for the trials to be stopped - even I think that was fucked up and then the angel possession - that was in no way good.

 

Whereas Dean was a demon and now is out of control with the Mark of Cain - and has even said, he doesn`t want to be that thing - so automatically everything Sam does gets played in a more positive light. Which is the thing, Sam gets the better world save, the "better" hell (in terms of more gruesome) and the better save. Just give me a break, show. 

Edited December 14, 2014 by Aeryn13

[Pete Martell]

I couldn`t disagree more and quite frankly, I find this even offensive. Just because Dean doesn`t see himself as a hero or a big Chosen One on a quest doesn`t mean his life`s work is not worthy of the moniker. What, unless someone is full of himself, their heroic acts don`t count as such?

 

And I also disagree about this being a valuable journey or purpose, especially in a show like this. Even if people start out as mundane and nothing special to make a show/story about them, they will become extraordinary in some way. If Peter Parker had never been bit by a radioactive spider, there would be no comic serious about him because he would just be a random nerdy kid and that isn`t material for one.

 

And I`ve always greately disliked boiling down the show to "this is Sam`s story, seen through Dean`s eyes" because it basically admits that he is just a lower-tier sidekick. The character is interesting enough to have his own story. Always was. He can do more than narrate Sam`s. Or Cas. Or Crowley`s. Who are apparently all deemed worthy enough to have epic, mytharc stories. Ànd they are supporting cast.

 

I don't remember saying that this was Sam's story seen through Dean's eyes. I said Dean and Sam had different stories. Sam had a life he never led. Dean had a life he led, a life ripped away from him in the most horrible way imaginable, and which he's never been allowed to deal with. Those are different stories.

 

I guess it depends on how much value you put on the idea of being a hero. Dean IS a hero, but ultimately what does that matter to him? He has rarely, if ever, had the things he wanted in life. And those things have, to me, never been a hero quest or journey. If you told Dean he's a hero, he'd probably say, "So what?" You could tell him a million times that he's a hero, and I'm sure he'd be happy someone sees him this way, but what he wanted out of life (family and friends and a sense of caring) was never about vanquishing or saving. That's what he was trained to do. Dean never got to be what he may have wanted to be. It was never even an option. He may have wanted to be a hero (as I think he said at one time he'd wanted to be a firefighter). He never got the chance to find out. That's what I want to see with his story - Dean being able to find out who he is, on his own terms. To me that's more important than big quests that I just don't really have a ton of interest in.

 

If anything I'd say Supernatural is precisely the type of show where hero quests just don't mean all that much. I can't remember one truly big hero moment (Azazel, Lucifer, the Leviathans, Abaddon, etc.) that ended with any type of moment of affirmation or celebration. They always just seem to be a harbinger to more pain.

[Aeryn13]

 

I guess it depends on how much value you put on the idea of being a hero. Dean IS a hero, but ultimately what does that matter to him?

 

I guess we differ in how we approach the show because I don`t really care too much what matters or doesn`t matter to the characters themselves. It`s not really a concern for me, I watch mainly to get affirmation for me. Not sure if I`m explaining this right but I was happy as a clam that Dean went to hell at the end of Season 3. Not because I hate the character because I figured for ME, there could be a great story, a true hero`s quest (and going to the underworld is a big part of it) coming from it.

 

Equally, I knew right from the start that taking on the Mark of Cain would bring disastrous results and that the character only did it because he was so fatalistic at this point, he didn`t care. And yet, I fist-pumped that moment because hooray for a story.

 

So, Dean finding a happy identity and whatnot just does not interest me at all because I don`t see even remotely an interesting story there. It might be good for the character but I find it boring to watch. I`d much rather see him do something extraordinary and interesting. Happy-ends and all that are for when the show is over. 

 

For the same reason I`d have been totally okay if Dean and Sam would have fallen into the plothole at the end of Season 5 and that had been the end of the show. Dean would have played out his part of the mytharc, gotten equal credit in the world save and had a big hero`s out. So canonically him and Sam would have ended with the prospect of neverending torment. Big whoop. That leaves me free to fantasize how they got out and all that. I don`t mind that.

 

I guess in the most basic terms I just don`t want the characters I care for do boring stuff and personal journeys to happiness with nothing else happening, with no grandesque mythic context, is utterly boring stuff to me.

 

 

If anything I'd say Supernatural is precisely the type of show where hero quests just don't mean all that much. I can't remember one truly big hero moment (Azazel, Lucifer, the Leviathans, Abaddon, etc.) that ended with any type of moment of affirmation or celebration.

 

I believe that is just a natural bi-product of the show not ending after any of these moments. Of course bigger and badder stuff needs to come, otherwise there would be no further story. But that doesn`t mean the hero`s quest itself gets devalued. I consider it the whole point actually. It is certainly why I personally watch genre stuff in the first place. 

Edited December 14, 2014 by Aeryn13

[Pete Martell]

It's not that I get upset when bad things happen to the character. I mostly just feel invested if it's compelling drama and can move the character forward. For me Dean's best stories have been personal stories, based on his background and motivations. That's not enough in of itself (if it was then the drinking stories and all the depressing Lisa/Ben stuff would be something I would see less as redundant fatalism), but it's one of the main reasons the character always draws me in.

 

I don't think he'll have a happy ending, I just want to see him discover himself and I hope he isn't killed at the end of the show. 

[supposebly]

 

If anything I'd say Supernatural is precisely the type of show where hero quests just don't mean all that much.

 

I never saw this as a hero's quest. For Sam, it was a road to redemption after the mother of all fuck-ups in season 4. It's all in the characters when this show works, a hero's quest, I never really see it that way. Maybe because who saves who or what is completely at the bottom of the list of things that interest me. I care WHY they act the way they do and when it works it's grounded in their characters.

So, I'm taking this as Dean's road to redemption, and I believe stuffing an angel into his brother counts as mother of all fuck-ups for his character who claims to be all about his brother.

In a way their major fuck-ups are betrayals of themselves and who they are on their good day but are very grounded in who they are on a bad day.

[AwesomO4000]

Thing is, I don`t remotely count Purgatory as an epic journey for Dean. It could have been but what it ended up was a couple of flashbacks that, while fun to watch, held no larger meaning to anything mythic and the story of Purgatory stopped being about Dean in ep 2, then the flashbacks were "the mystery of Castiel". After that was solved, it was dropped and never to be spoken off again until they sent Sam there on his super-trial to hop and skip through Purgatory.

 

I consider it ones of the most truncated Dean-stories in the show.

 

It might have been "short" in your eyes - not to me. I saw enough flashbacks here - but even, somehow, if it was, I don't see how that doesn't make it heroic. What about a man fighting against incredible odds to survive monster attacks for a year to find his friend when at any time he could have shortened his stint by leaving his friend behind and then actually completing that goal - i.e. surviving and finding his friend against all of those odds - is not heroic? Maybe that it didn't cover a whole season (which I was glad for in my opinion. There is only so much variation to Dean and Benny bad-assedly kill everything around them yet again and argue about whether they're going to find Castiel. Granted it wasn't boring like Sam's anti-hero journey, but that's not saying much at all.), but in my opinion the narrative of the story is the epitome of a heroic journey. And that it came after Dean saved the world from Dick Roman makes it even more so in my book.

 

As for the "mystery of Castiel," to me that wasn't what the story was about either. Then it would have been just a straightforward mystery, not as it turned out, that the real twist to the story was that Dean changed the story's end in his own mind. The point - even though I kinda disliked it - was that Dean had to make himself not the hero for some reason, because he's just that unsure of his worth or something. Or maybe that it would be better that he failed than someone choose to leave him, or that random things happen he can't control or something. It didn't make sense to me anyway, but whatever: it didn't change that everything Dean did in purgatory was heroic, honorable, and out of loyalty to Castiel.

 

And I don't really count the trials as much of a "heroic journey" for Sam, because he didn't complete the trails and do anything to improve the world and only finished the ones he did with tons of help from other characters, so what was the point except to get Sam to a damaged place so that he'd be a plot point in Dean's next story and to get Crowley to a strange emotional place for his plot?

 

Equally, Season 7 and the Leviathans weren`t a Dean-story in my eyes. And the happenstance win with the assisstance of Castiel was not even remotely close to what Sam got with his Chosen One 100 % thing in 5.22

 

If I had to attribute percentages here, Sam got 100 % and Dean got 15 % of what I consider the "big moment". Giving the trials to Sam was just the final blow, to be honest. The second big hero`s quest introduced in the show and it goes to Sam again? Sorry, no matter the narrative excuses for it, that was IT for me.

 

To me happenstance is if Dean wandered by and happened to find everything going down and happened to find a random weapon and used it. Killing Dick Roman had been Dean's raison d'etre for at least half the season, and his reason as to why had been building since the second episode when he thought that the leviathans had caused Castiel's demise. Dean had researched the case for months on his own. He told Dick Roman to his face that he was going to end him after Dick killed Bobby. Nothing about that to me is "happenstance." It's the hero having a goal, stating that goal, working tirelessly to achieve that goal, and then achieving it with a small assist from Castiel. And by completing that goal also happened to save the world.

 

I also don't get the argument that Sam supposedly defeated Lucifer on his own... that it was 100% him. I thought the narrative went to great lengths to show that wasn't the case - i.e. that when Sam was supposedly at his strongest, when he first drank all of the blood, then Lucifer squashed him like a bug. Even if you don't give Dean any of the credit - I do - then the Impala at least gets some as does lucky coincidence. I'm not sure how Dean fortuitously bringing Baby which just happens to have a toy soldier that we never heard of before in the ashtray that Lucifer just happens to see is not "happenstance." If Dean hadn't showed up and there hadn't been a toy soldier, there would have been no win, Sam would have not beaten Lucifer (so not even close to 100% in my book) . That's they way the narrative told it. That's way more happenstance in my book than Dean researching, planning, attaining the proper weapon, and almost perfectly executing a plan to kill Dick Roman. No one is going to convince me that that was 15% Dean. I spent much of season 7 watching and investing in Dean getting to that point.

 

And if Dean had gotten the trials journey, I suspect that many fans would be complaining when he didn't finish the quest - like Sam didn't - because then it would be "see, they had Dean do a quest and he didn't finish it, so they are making Dean look like a quitter and a loser."  And apparently the story was not going to be to finish the quest or we would've ended up with a boring human Crowley and no more demons, so Dean not finishing the trials is what would have happened. I'm not sure why that would be a good thing for Dean.

 

I perked up a bit with the MOC being introduced but so far, it is all about how evil/dark/bad Dean is so I`m not really sure, they mean to give the character an actual redemption at the end. Let alone a  big one.

 

Season 4 was all about how Sam was "evil/bad/dark" before we got the season 5 ending. That's the way it seems to work on this show.

 

I wouldn`t mind if I saw them as unequal in such a way. But I`m truly, honestly seeing as Sam is at the finish line and Dean at the starting point. So, the only disparity that remains is for Dean. He is the only one who needs to catch up, Sam already has all the laurels.

 

What laurels? The ones where he abandoned Dean and Kevin after he "ran over a dog?" Where he saved the world only to shrug his shoulders and say "ehn, Leviathans? Everyone else can deal with those?" For me, I think they took Sam's laurels back and he now has an * next to his "win." Because in my opinion "saving the world" is somewhat tarnished if later on you shrug and let it potentially go to hell afterwards. (And the main reason it didn't is because Carver seemed to have conveniently forgotten that plot point of the leviathans still being around and that Sam was supposed to be keeping them from organizing again as per what Crowley said in the season 7 finale.)

 

In terms of brother`s saves, well, Dean`s are also tainted, aren`t they? He made the deal - that was wrong. He gave Sam his soul back - Ì`ve read enough "that was rape" meta, he asked for the trials to be stopped - even I think that was fucked up and then the angel possession - that was in no way good.

 

Whereas Dean was a demon and now is out of control with the Mark of Cain - and has even said, he doesn`t want to be that thing - so automatically everything Sam does gets played in a more positive light. Which is the thing, Sam gets the better world save, the "better" hell (in terms of more gruesome) and the better save.

At least Dean has saves. And the argument that leaving Sam's soul in hell is a good thing? I really don't get that at all. I thought the show made it pretty clear that soulless Sam was a psychopath who murdered innocent people for his own ends and only mostly got the monsters if it was convenient and then moved on while real Sam was being tortured. Why would it be considered a good thing for that to remain status quo? To me that's bordering on ridiculous.

 

And as for the Gadreel situation, since Sam admitted that he lied and not only would he have done the same thing with Dean to get him back, but it was shown that he endangered (at the least) innocent people to do so, I'm not seeing as how Sam would come out any better than Dean on that front.

 

With the mark of Cain plot, yes Dean is out of control, but he - as you state - is admitting that he "doesn't want to be that thing." In season 4 we got a Sam supposedly influenced by the power and control the demon blood gave him and running at least partially on arrogance. Somehow, to me, Dean emphatically stating that he doesn't want this is the more positive portrayal, no matter how "dark" it supposedly gets. I'm not sure how that translates to "everything Sam does gets played in a more positive light" when we've already seen the Lester incident and how Sam was portrayed as doing what he did with no influence from the mark or being a demon.

 

In my opinion, Sam did what he thought he had to do, and I don't blame him too badly for it, but I suspect that the show might, considering most of the dialogue  hints at what Sam did was either just as bad or worse than what Dean did even though Dean was a demon at the time.

[catrox14]

I think Dean saying he doesn't want to be this 'thing' assuming that it is in fact Dean 1.0 (which how because he really truly died) or Moc!Dean saying it and not a lurking demon!Dean is in keeping with Dean having become his own worst nightmare and that he never wanted nor would want to stay that 'thing'.  I don't think it's a mark of Dean's heroism that he doesn't want to be that or asks to be killed if he becomes that again.   I think that is a character point, not a hero point.  It becomes a hero point IF Dean somehow ends up a demon again but saves the world. 

 

If Dean really did die, then what if it's demon!Dean trying to get out and he wants Cas to kill him to unleash the demon again.  As much as I ADORE Dean Winchester 1.0 , the morbid side of me really does want this because if it's a choice between Door #1 which has nothing but a murder addicted, apparently irredeemable, controlled by the Mark!Dean 1.0 with no apparent cure unless it comes via Sam or Cas or gods forbid Crowley or Door #2 with a badass demon!Dean who kills whoever he wants for whatever reasons he wants and has no fucks to give but his own?....I'll take door number two.

Edited December 14, 2014 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

AwesomO4000, I guess we can agree to disagree. I just can`t see in any way, shape or form where Dean got something remotely equal to Sam`s hero quest so far in the show, not the Leviathans, not Purgatory, nothing. And in Sam`s big quests - Lucifer and the trials - what Dean "got" was like nitric acid in the wound.

 

Heck, stuff like Head!Bobby putting Dean in his place about any delusions of grandeur in helping with a trial and then have Sam validated by Death himself who came to fangirl? That is just hammering it home.

 

However, I think you have a good chance to get your wish, Sam saving his brother because said brother is apparently too weak and so easily falls to evil and Sam`s save this time will not be tarnished in any way. There will probably be some dialogue on how Sam had the MOC, he would of course be able to control it and how Dean wished he would only be as awesome as Sam. I dread it already.

 

While there is NO chance in hell I`ll get my wish of a big epic Dean-world-save-moment. If anything, Dean`s "redemption" might be another Suck Song ultimately, i.e. learning to kneel on the ground and let his much more special brother go on to save the world. I would not at all be surprised if the show ended with this, having the character know his place as a good little sidekick again while Sam went out in glory.  

Edited December 14, 2014 by Aeryn13