All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DittyDotDot]

Can someone summarize the Campbell storyline for me?  I know Dean went back in time during the episode where Yellow Eyes killed grandma Deanna, grandpa Samuel, and John so Mary made the deal to bring back John in return for the unspecified favor to be named later.  But what was the deal with Samuel coming back and rounding up the Campbell clan during the soul-less Sam season?  Was Samuel in Hell or Heaven?  Who resurrected him?  I just caught a rerun where Samuel is doing favors for Crowley but what was the context?  If there really is a long history of Campbells being hunters, why wouldn't the Men of Letters know about them?  Did every Campbell get killed?  So many questions!

 

Most of the Campbell stuff didn't really make sense in the end, but I'll give it the old college try...

 

It was stated, by Samuel, in Exile on Main Street that Sam was pulled up and Samuel was pulled down (presumably from Heaven if Sam was in Hell). However, I'm not sure how reliable Samuel is since he was found to be working for Crowley later. I was under the impression that demons didn't have the juice to bring someone back from the dead unless there was a deal involved, so I assumed Cass brought them both back. In The Man Who Would Be King, Crowley tells Cass he knows of someone experienced they could tap since Cass insisted Crowley leave Dean out of it, which kinda sounds like Samuel was in Hell to me. So, there's some contradiction there and your best guess is probably as good as mine.

 

As to why Samuel was doing favors for Crowley...apparently Crowley promised to bring Mary back from the dead--something about not knowing how to live without her. What Samuel was planning to tell Mary when she was was walking and talking again? I have no idea. Did he really think she'd be grateful he sacrificed her sons to bring her back? IMO, that whole thing was just nonsense.

 

As to the Campbells all being dead...I think that's supposed to be the assumption after And Then There Were None where both Samuel and Gwen get killed. In S3, Ruby sets Sam on a path to learn that almost anyone Mary knew and/or was related to was now dead--this was a storyline that got dropped in S3 due to the writer's strike. In S4, Yellow Eyes tells Dean he's going to cover his tracks good so no one would be able to figure out what he was up to. I assumed that meant he was the one who wiped out Mary's relatives.  So, where the S6 clan of Campbells came from, I have no clue.

 

Yes, I would think the MoL should've known about the Campbells, but, judging by Samuel, it seemed like the Campbells weren't really tapped into the hunter world and/or very sociable. Back in S4, it seemed like Samuel didn't work with other hunters and in S6 he had this whole library and a lot of information (like the vampire cure) that no other hunter had knowledge of. So maybe the Campbells weren't on the MoL radar because they kept mostly to themselves. Henry said the MoL only worked with a very select group of hunters.

 

Hope that helps some. Lots of unanswered questions here, if you ask me.

[SueB]

What about that shifter baby? Didn't Christian Campbell and his wife adopt him, or were planning to? So I guess he's maybe a Campbell. But no telling what happened to that poor child!

Shifter Alpha took the baby and left.  I don't know what happened to Christian's wife.  

[Frost]

Thanks for the Campbell summaries!  I'm not sure I really understand it, but it sounds like a fairly muddled storyline regardless.  That whole season seems like the writer's were flailing around without a clear direction.

[catrox14]

Is it weird that when I see the topic name I sing it now...

 

Saaavinng people, \

Hunnnting things.

Family Business

Back in Swing...

 

On the road so far...

[AwesomO4000]

Thanks for the Campbell summaries!  I'm not sure I really understand it, but it sounds like a fairly muddled storyline regardless.  That whole season seems like the writer's were flailing around without a clear direction.

For me, things got much more focused in the second half of the season when Eve showed up, because then they had a focus to get rid of her and the mystery behind what Castiel was doing picked up as well.

[SueB]

I sing too.

[catrox14]

From Executioner's Song thread:

 

I know Abaddon couldn't keep Dean pinned to the wall but again IMO that was more a function of the Blade and the Mark powering up Dean during the battle just like Jedi minding the Blade back to his hand.

 

As much as I adore Dean and as great as I know Jensen would sell me on Dean's ability to control the Mark to the degree that Cain could without being a demon, would be a huge jump the shark moment for me.  I know the boys have survived all manner of stupid things but that would be HUGE WTF moment for me. If we find out that Dean has really been a watered down demon!Dean all along, and that is why he could control himself, then I would be all in with both feet.  I would buy that.  Cain could control himself all these years because he had the strength and powers of a demon IMO.

 

But for re-constituted-human!Dean who seems to, as of now, lost all his demon powers, for him to that much will power and control would be unreal to me on any level. I don't want that. 

[trxr4kids]

I think it's pretty clear that the writing is trying (however inadequately) to show Dean learning to value himself, seeing that regardless of any mistakes, he's a good man and he does in fact deserve to be saved and although he's capable of saving himself, it's okay to ask for help. I think him having the mark, being a knight of hell and being a demon however briefly is irrelevant and unimportant to the writing because to them it's the b or c plot, his emotional journey being the a plot. So in short no flashy powers because it might detract from the lengthy close ups of angst, I mean having a episode without a single man tear would be as nuts as having an episode without Sam being overpowered and tied to a tiny little chair by someone half his size. I truly believe tptb have no clue why people watch this show. They should all be strapped to uncomfortable chairs and forced to watch The Benders and The Usual Suspects until they get it through their heads that we want smart, capable, confidents, caring brothers and interesting cases.

[SueB]

 

until they get it through their heads that we want smart, capable, confidents, caring brothers and interesting cases.

I guess I think we're getting that and I like S10.  Would I like to have a few more episodes where their individual competencies are on display?  Yes.  But I this this:

 

 

to show Dean learning to value himself, seeing that regardless of any mistakes, he's a good man and he does in fact deserve to be saved and although he's capable of saving himself, it's okay to ask for help. I think him having the mark, being a knight of hell and being a demon however briefly is irrelevant and unimportant to the writing because to them it's the b or c plot, his emotional journey being the a plot.

Is a good plot for S10.  It's a long-standing problem and they are taking a long time to realistically deal with it.  I'm on board with that.

 

I guess I'm saying, not everyone watches for the same reason.  

[catrox14]

I like the big mytharcs, the MoTW cases in between the mytharc stuff and I don't even mind the brothers fighting.  I mean who gets along with their siblings 100% of the time all the time...especially those that have a dysfunctional childhood.  

 

What I want is less anvils giving me headaches. I want clever writing that highlights things without every mirror be it literal or metaphorical, in my face.  I want Dean sincere and snarky and smart and heroic and beer swilling and hamburger eating. I want Sam clever and caring and heroic and sincere. I want Sam to make a friend of his own not named Crowley, Cas or Dean or Cole or is a girlfriend.  Sam needs a guy friend.  

 

One thing I really appreciated about the Cain episode and Young Dean episode is that both felt like s4 SPN. They didn't hit me in the face with the Cain/Dean parallels because it was right there. It was old skool s4 SPN in it's look and feel, especially the creepy graveyard scene with Cas and Cain.  It felt epic. IMO.  The Young Dean episode was creepy and gross and spooky and funny too.

 

That is what I want more of. 

[trxr4kids]

Oh no I agree SueB that we watch for different reasons and that Dean's issues need to be dealt with, I just think on a show called Supernatural that should be a side story not the big story. Mostly I'm just sick of the angst and manufactured conflict.

[catrox14]

Oh no I agree SueB that we watch for different reasons and that Dean's issues need to be dealt with, I just think on a show called Supernatural that should be a side story not the big story. Mostly I'm just sick of the angst and manufactured conflict.

 

IMO Supernatural was never about the Supernatural really. It's always been about the brothers. To me the supernatural stuff was just the platform to delve into brotherly/manly angst.  I'm not saying that in a mocking way. The manufactured conflict I can live with out but if the angst is organic to the brothers relationship, I'm cool with it.

[trxr4kids]

I guess I don't believe most, and by most I mean like 90% of the angst is organic.The Sam and Dean of season 1 were overall more well rounded individuals as well as brothers IMO. Their relationship wasn't perfect but it had an honesty and caring to it. 

[rue721]

So in short no flashy powers because it might detract from the lengthy close ups of angst, I mean having a episode without a single man tear would be as nuts as having an episode without Sam being overpowered and tied to a tiny little chair by someone half his size. I truly believe tptb have no clue why people watch this show. They should all be strapped to uncomfortable chairs and forced to watch The Benders and The Usual Suspects until they get it through their heads that we want smart, capable, confidents, caring brothers and interesting cases.

 

I 100% agree "that we want smart, capable, confident, caring brothers and interesting cases." But not so sure about the lengthy close-ups of angst and mandatory single man tears. I don't want that, personally. (Though I'm still behind Sam getting tied to tiny chairs, it's ridiculous).

 

For the longer, season-length arcs, I'm all over the B-plots and emotional storylines, and prefer that to the heaven/hell half-baked "lore" bullshit. Which is why I throw out crack!spec about the mytharc stuff all the time (sorry catrox14! But I've already erased a whole post about Rowena getting the Mark! So, already doing better! :P). I *like* the more personal stuff.

 

But the really heavy angst stuff doesn't actually feel like "personal stuff" to me. It feels soapy, not like a relationship that you'd have with your brother/best-friend who you already know inside and out. I wish the guys were *more* low-grade obnoxious to each other, that they teased and messed with each other and even got exasperated with each other more, but also were more apt to let the big stuff just roll off their backs. Maybe that's immature or maybe I'm immature, but that's the stuff I enjoy watching. JMV. I'll take a Tall Tales dueling stories kind of "fight" or even a more serious kind of disagreement/discussion, like in Houses of the Holy, over a The Purge-style blowout and Single Man tears -- any day of the week.

Edited March 6, 2015 by rue721

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I guess I think we're getting that and I like S10.  Would I like to have a few more episodes where their individual competencies are on display?  Yes.  But I this this:

 

Is a good plot for S10.  It's a long-standing problem and they are taking a long time to realistically deal with it.  I'm on board with that.

 

I guess I'm saying, not everyone watches for the same reason.  

I agree that we are getting that this season. I think there are people that feel this emotional journey isn't flashy enough, while I find it more intriguing than watching Dean be a demon.

[trxr4kids]

 

But not so sure about the lengthy close-ups of angst and mandatory single man tears. I don't want that, personally.

Me either, and you expressed pretty much what I was trying to say much better than I did with your whole post.

[DittyDotDot]

But the really heavy angst stuff doesn't actually feel like "personal stuff" to me. It feels soapy, not like a relationship that you'd have with your brother/best-friend who you already know inside and out. I wish the guys were *more* low-grade obnoxious to each other, that they teased and messed with each other and even got exasperated with each other more, but also were more apt to let the big stuff just roll off their backs. Maybe that's immature or maybe I'm immature, but that's the stuff I enjoy watching. JMV. I'll take a Tall Tales dueling stories kind of "fight" or even a more serious kind of disagreement/discussion, like in Faith, over a The Purge-style blowout and Single Man tears -- any day of the week.

 

I've been saying for years now that Sam and Dean were more adult the first couple of seasons than they appear to be now. Sure, they show their emotions more now, but their actions feel like actions of lost little boys now rather than grown ass men.

 

I agree that we are getting that this season. I think there are people that feel this emotional journey isn't flashy enough, while I find it more intriguing than watching Dean be a demon.

 

I'm generally a very character driven viewer, so it's not about the flash for me. I didn't care for the Demon Dean stuff anymore than I care for the single man tears. I just personally don't see these personal journeys as really all that personal, meaningful or interesting.

[trxr4kids]

 

I've been saying for years now that Sam and Dean were more adult the first couple of seasons than they appear to be now. Sure, they show their emotions more now, but their actions feel like actions of lost little boys now rather than grown ass men.

I'm not sure how to explain this but to me it's as if when the show started the characters were more layered or multifaceted and gradually became reduced to certain key aspects of their personalities, more one dimensional. Sure Dean was a protective older brother but it's not all he was. Sam was emotionally dramatic/ explosive but in ways and situations that made sense for him to be, not for the sole purpose of a close-up fade out of Dean's devastated face.

[rue721]

I'm generally a very character driven viewer, so it's not about the flash for me. I didn't care for the Demon Dean stuff anymore than I care for the single man tears. I just personally don't see these personal journeys as really all that personal, meaningful or interesting.

 

I think that the Demon!Dean storyline *could* have been the supernatural set-up to a more personal storyline. I actually was interested in what Dean in particular, as an individual character, would be like as a demon. All the demons have had individual personalities before, and I was interested in what his personality would be like in the funhouse-mirror of him being a demon. But that isn't what we saw. And then he was cured and it was back to the same old same old anyway.

 

For me, Sam's emotional storyline is working well right now. But Dean's storyline still seems really plot-driven (as opposed to character-driven), to me, because it's external stuff, like the Mark of Cain or Cain himself, that's driving his story forward. *Not* what Dean wants or decides.

 

I also don't think that it's as simple as Dean being a good person and needing to be assured of that. I agree that he's got a good heart. I wouldn't watch the show if I didn't. But his fear that he actually does more bad than good actually *is* legitimate imo. Being pissed off/afraid/sad that he's spent his whole life trying really hard to do the right thing and sacrificing basically everything for that, maybe even sacrificing his soul for it, only to wonder if maybe he's been doing more wrong than right after all -- that's legitimate imo. I think that that would have been John's story, too, if he'd have been more self-aware and prone to self-examination. I mean, you sacrifice your whole life to killing, what does that mean in the end? That you're nothing but a killer who trains and drives more people to become killers, too? Dean has more or less said that about himself before, too -- he said it to Cole imo.

 

I think that Dean legitimately cares about saving people, it's his raison d'etre, and for him to think of himself as someone who kills rather than someone who saves, is a big deal. Also, a lot of people he loves have been murdered -- not just died, but died violently -- so I expect him to have a relatively complicated relationship with violence because of that. Not to rehash old, old stuff, but I think it's pretty mind-bending to see your mother killed and then see your father turn into a killer, and train you to be one, too. And I think that Dean is actually really ambivalent about having carried on the legacy by training his little brother to be the same, imo he acts like he thinks he failed to protect Sam (from becoming a killer) but at the same time, agreed with John that it was better for Sam to be a killer than to be killed. To me, that's all legitimately complex and interesting. I think it would be cheap of the show for Dean to just shrug his shoulders after all these years and say, "same difference, I'm a good person regardless," and I don't think that would be true to the character, either.

[catrox14]

 

From the SuperNormal thread:

 

JARED: Funnily enough, I feel like Sam struggles with the issues of depression and self-doubt. He also has, literally, tried to end his own life. In the Season 8 finale, Dean tells Sam that if he goes through with something then Sam will die, and Sam’s response is, “So?” That was a very powerful moment for me. I read it, and it made me cry literal, actual tears. I knew people who had that feeling. I, personally, had had that feeling. I think Sam understands that the most difficult or scariest fights aren't the physical ones and that the scariest thing you can encounter is your own mind. Luckily for us (and for me, so that I can still have my job!), Sam has been able to persevere and stick around. But NOT without a little help!

 

    

That's kind of a big thing for him to say Sam was suicidal vs sacrificial.  I mean isn't that the entire reason Sam didn't want Dean to do the trials because he thought Dean was suicidal.  And for S9 does that mean Sam really did WANT to die?

 

So if Jared thought Sam was suicidal does that mean that Dean actually did the right thing by letting GadZeke's possess Sam.  Does that mean that Sam didn't care that Dean was also essentially suicidal in s9 and that he would have let Dean kill himself vs sacrificing for the greater good. 

 

I'm pretty taken aback by Jared's comments here.

[rue721]

That's kind of a big thing for him to say Sam was suicidal vs sacrificial.  I mean isn't that the entire reason Sam didn't want Dean to do the trials because he thought Dean was suicidal.  And for S9 does that mean Sam really did WANT to die?

 

I think that in S8, it was about suicide, and purifying himself through death. He more or less kept saying as much imo. I think he saw the Trials, dying, and closing Hell as a way of atoning, and that's why he was so eager to do them.

 

Dean seemed to me to want to do the Trials so that if it killed anyone, it would be him rather than Sam -- so Sam put Dean off of doing the Trials by saying that he wouldn't die. I don't think Sam ever actually cared about surviving the Trials or believed he would, though. Dean kept getting more and more freaked out by how sick Sam was getting, but Sam didn't care at all.

 

Imo Sam's nonchalance just freaked Dean out more and got him more desperate, and then by the time Sam was actually dying, all Dean could think was NO NO NO NOOOO NO. At the point that S9 started, Dean was pretty clear that he'd do *anything* to keep Sam from dying. I think he was just in a panic, I don't think that he was thinking straight at that point.

 

I don't think that Sam was ever *actively* suicidal, but I think that he desperately wanted to atone and for nobody else to be harmed in his name (since that was the deal he made with Death), and he saw death as a way to do that. I think he saw death as cleansing.

 

On the other hand, in S5 when he said yes to Lucifer and leapt into the Pit, I think that was sacrifice rather than suicide. And I think that Sam finally was able to convince Dean of that, too, which was why Dean accepted that choice imo. I don't think that Dean would have accepted that choice if he thought that the *point* for Sam was to die.

 

When it came to Sam saying that he wouldn't have saved Dean at all costs in the way that Dean saved him, I think he was first of all, pissed as hell and going to get in as bad a dig as he could, and he was also, second of all, angry about what he saw as Dean's selfish motivation for overriding his own wishes and unleashing who even knows what on the world in order to save Sam's life. That's also why Sam said that Dean thought he was doing more good than bad, but he really wasn't -- imo that's something that Sam is fearful of, that he's done more harm than good, and that's what he had wanted to atone for and what he had wanted to make sure *wasn't* going to be undone by him continuing to live past that atonement.

[catrox14]

 

I think that in S8, it was about suicide, and purifying himself through death. He more or less kept saying as much imo. I think he saw the Trials, dying, and closing Hell as a way of atoning, and that's why he was so eager to do them.

 

I had a totally different read on Sam doing the trials. I think Sam was completely aware of and sincere when he said that Dean didn't care if he died and that it was a suicide mission for Dean...the whole not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel thing from Dean. 

 

To me Sam was aware he could have died but he didn't really want to die at all when he began the trials. To me purifying himself should not have left him potentially suicidal or not caring if he died.  Which is why I really hated that scene in the church when Sam is suddenly saying "So?", if he dies.  To me that ran completely counter to what Sam's attitude and outlook had been.

 

Now, what would have sold me on that turnabout would have been if it had been explained that instead of the trials purifying Sam and freeing him of his guilt and sin, that it was actually working the opposite and was corrupting him and making him believe he was a piece of shit that didn't deserve to live....that would have been interesting. 

 

Anyway, I just would never have ever had Jared interpret Sam's actions as suicidal vs redemption and sacrifice.   YMMV

[SueB]

I read Sam as suicidal at not only the end of S8 but in S9 post-Kevin as well.  But I also think he didn't START that way.  When he took on the trials he was sincere in that he thought there was another way.  But I think the trials DID make him feel like shit physically and that can wear you down. Now add in his doubts about himself as a human and feeling he failed Dean.  I think he just wanted EVERYTHING over.  Now I think Sam would DENY that he was suicidal but as the trials went on, I think he knew he was going to die. And so now he could go out in that blaze of glory, having purified himself.  He wouldn't have committed suicide by just sticking a gun in his mouth IMO.  He was committing "suicide by sacrifice".  He should have stopped after the first trial.  He hid the effects from Dean but he had already started the Doc Holliday crap.  

 

Then add in the tons of foreshadowing that Sam was taking Dean's comments/actions and ALWAYS presuming they meant Sam was incompetent.  Sometimes it was just Dean worrying about Sam because that's his role but Sam saw it as criticism.  It doesn't have to make sense to a third party, it just seemed like that was how Sam was taking stuff.  Dean wants Sam to "tag out" and Dean do the trials (because he's worried for Sam), Sam thinks Dean doesn't trust him.  Dean didn't want Sam to go to Hell alone, Sam got pissed off.  Sam, in his semi-delusional state, says the trials are "purifying him".  Showing how deep-seated his fears of "inherently evil" are. And then Dean has to give that shit-list of bad-things to confess, showing he's completely unaware of Sam's mental state.  

 

But if you add up everything, Sam may not have intended suicide but as the trials went on, I think he started gravitating to them as yet another form of escape.  

 

What I disliked about the church scene was not Sam's breakdown but how weaksauce Dean's argument about why stop.  "Think about what we know...' speech was not remotely compelling.  The real facts: Dean didn't want Sam to die and he'd have said anything to get him to stop.  Sam got that Dean needed him to stop and he didn't want to disappoint him.  So he stopped.  There was never a good Plan B for taking care of demons.  At least not one that held much water.  

[rue721]

I had a totally different read on Sam doing the trials. I think Sam was completely aware of and sincere when he said that Dean didn't care if he died and that it was a suicide mission for Dean...the whole not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel thing from Dean.

 

I think that Sam *sincerely* didn't want Dean to die, and so he didn't want Dean to do the Trials. But I never got a feeling that Sam was surprised or even upset when it was clear that he himself was dying from the Trials. I don't think he ever really thought he wouldn't. I think he just genuinely DGAF and eventually started welcoming it as a way to cleanse himself for once and all.

 

Now, what would have sold me on that turnabout would have been if it had been explained that instead of the trials purifying Sam and freeing him of his guilt and sin, that it was actually working the opposite and was corrupting him and making him believe he was a piece of shit that didn't deserve to live....that would have been interesting.

 

That's always been Sam's issue, though -- his fear that there's something in him that's corrupted or poisonous. That was his "thing" in S1 when he worried that he was just like the killer psychic kids, and it was his "thing" again in S2 with the psychic kids, and then in S3 he was going through who knows what trying to keep Dean from going to Hell -- knowing that Dean was going to Hell *for* him and to save *his* life (I think that's a HUGE reason why he really doesn't want anymore sacrifices to be made to save him, I think that tore him up completely), and then in S4 he tried to become stronger by making the "corrupted" part of himself stronger and drinking more and more demon blood (obviously, that was a disaster), and then in S5, Lucifer was whispering in his ear that *of course* it had to be Sam who would be the perfect vessel for Satan and appearing as Jessica to say that it was because of Sam that she had been killed....Anyway, you get the point.

 

I don't know who Sam puts on his list of "people who sacrificed their lives for Sam" but it's pretty long. Mary, Jessica, Dean (that first death in S3), and Kevin are definitely on there. And all those people who Lucifer had demons possess to push Sam along, maybe. Idk, there are lots of additional possibilities.

 

I think that the SL you're describing about his "work" corrupting him even as he's getting stronger and better at it was Sam's SL in S4, and Sam coming to feel like he didn't care if he died in the process because he was a piece of shit anyway, was Sam's SL in S5 -- though in S5, I think that what was paramount to him was still actually righting the wrong that he felt he'd committed, by starting the Apocalypse and letting Lucifer walk free, and he was sacrificing himself to right that wrong, with death just as a consequence.

 

*Nobody* needed to do the Trials. The guys were on offense rather than defense with that one. They didn't even do a whole lot of research to figure out if the Trials were a good idea or not. So I think I think it was pretty clearly Sam taking on a suicide mission for his own reasons rather than Sam making a necessary sacrifice that just happened to result in his death. And he said as much when he was impatient with Dean over Dean's worries for him, and with that purification comment.

 

I don't think that the atonement or purification was real, I don't think there was some higher power nodding his head in approval as Sam went through the Trials or anything like that. But that atonement and purification was real to Sam imo, so it mattered a lot to him that he'd be able to go through with it.

 

Sam, in his semi-delusional state, says the trials are "purifying him".  Showing how deep-seated his fears of "inherently evil" are. And then Dean has to give that shit-list of bad-things to confess, showing he's completely unaware of Sam's mental state. 

 

Dean has never understood what Sam was talking about when Sam has brought up feeling "wrong" or like a freak, or any of the zillion other ways that Sam's referred to this same issue to Dean. I think that was like 75% of their ~dramz in Dark Side of the Moon, too, that Dean just couldn't grok why Sam's heaven was all just fantasies/memories of feeling "normal," and why those fantasies were specifically *unlike* Sam's actual life.

[rue721]

What I disliked about the church scene was not Sam's breakdown but how weaksauce Dean's argument about why stop.  "Think about what we know...' speech was not remotely compelling.  The real facts: Dean didn't want Sam to die and he'd have said anything to get him to stop.  Sam got that Dean needed him to stop and he didn't want to disappoint him.  So he stopped.  There was never a good Plan B for taking care of demons.  At least not one that held much water.  

 

I agree about that speech, I was fine with everything else in the church. Well, I got a big fat whallup of secondhand embarrassment for Crowley when he started begging for love, but y'know.

 

Anyway, the weaksauce nature of Dean's speech in the church is why I found it so irritating that Dean kept insisting in S9 that he didn't try to persuade Sam to stop the Trials because he (Dean) didn't want Sam to die just for some stupid Trial, that Dean had had some other (unknown?) reason for trying to persuade him to stop. What bullshit. Of course Dean tried to persuade him to stop because he didn't want him to die, and Sam stopped because he saw how much Dean didn't want him to die. Every time Dean started protesting about that, I just wanted to be like WHY IS THIS EVEN A THING. It's OK to not be OK with your brother dying right in front of you for some stupid ass Trial that nobody's ever heard of before and that might not even be a good idea to go through with anyway, JUST ADMIT IT.

 

I did think it was selfish of Sam not to go through with it, but I don't know why that's such a gigantic problem, either. I mean, it would be less selfish of me to martyr myself for something-or-other, too, but you don't see me doing it. It's an OK amount of selfishness to refuse to do something because it'll kill you, imo.

[catrox14]

Here's the main problem with the Sam being suicidal/not caring if he lives or dies in s8.

 

It was how it played out with Sam being sick and hiding his sickness from Dean that I never once intrepreted as Sam hiding that he WANTED to die. That death was better than him living. 

 

How could Dean have been able to know that Sam no longer cared if he lived, when he kept telling Dean he was okay when he clearly wasn't?  Dean was constantly in Sam's face about how unhealthy he had become.  I just don't see how Dean could have ever truly known that Sam was suicidal or felt so dirty that his life no longer mattered especially when Sam told Dean that trials were actually purifying him.  And Sam's reasons for not caring if he lived apparently hinged on Dean having two friends outside of Sam because Sam had disappointed Dean. Of course they never bothered to mention the greatest disappointment for Dean was Sam abandoning him to Purgatory (from Dean's perspective). To me that is some horrible emotional manipulation from Sam.  That essentially Sam was telling Dean that by having two friends outside of him that he was no longer worthy of living.  I know that was supposed to be about Sam feeling so guilty that Dean turned to an angel and a vampire but it's also telling Dean that he would rather die than Dean turn to other people.  And despite Sam not looking for Dean and abandoning Kevin to his fates, Dean did not turn his back on Sam. He killed Benny to save Sam and keep the trials going.

 

Sam's actual desire to die is a different thing that accepting he might die but for the greater good.  Dean had no clue and I don't think he should have been expected to have that clue, especially when Sam never said anything other than the trials were cleansing him.  It was only when Naomi said the trials were going to kill Sam which was clearly not what Dean believed was going to happen that Dean called it off, IMO Dean decided that they could do something a different way that didn't require Sam to die.

 

Dean used their relationship to appeal to Sam because Sam didn't listen to Dean's other reasons. I also think that when Dean heard Sam say 'So' that it engaged his parental instinct to save Sam.  I just can't really find fault with Dean for not wanting Sam to die if he didn't have to. 

 

 

Dean kept insisting in S9 that he didn't try to persuade Sam to stop the Trials because he (Dean) didn't want Sam to die just for some stupid Trial, that Dean had had some other

 

I've been rewatching s9 and I remember how frustrated I was with the Purge speech and why I felt like Dean was really misunderstood and that there is a perception that Dean never admitted that he saved Sam for Sam and himself and that it was selfish vs a loving act or that Dean didn't accept responsibility for Sam stopping the trials.

 

And that's because in "Devil May Care" and maybe it gets forgotten because that episode is not well regarded or because it was the 2nd episode of the season, but Dean specifically told SamZeke in that it was his fault that Sam stopped the trials. That he talked him out of it.  Shouldn't Sam have remembered that conversation even though it was with Ezekiel?  Sam said he remembered some things in 9.23 when suddenly Gadreel was their ally.

 

From 9.2 (Dean talking to Sam!Zeke after Zeke killed the soldiers)

 

DEAN:Yeah, it's just that, uh... this is on me. I was the one who talked Sam out of boarding up Hell. Okay? So every demon deal, every kill that they make... well, you're looking at the person who let it happen.

 

ZEKE!SAM: You were protecting your brother. I am in Sam's head. Everything he knows, I know. And I know that what you did, you did out of love.

DEAN:Yeah, uh, look, Zeke—I'm gonna call you Zeke—I'm not really with the whole, uh, love, and... love.

ZEKE!SAM:But it is why I said yes.

DEAN:Yeah, and if that goes sideways, that's on me too.

ZEKE!SAM:That's not going to happen.

DEAN:This is nuts. I mean, you're Sam, but you're not Sam, and normally he's the one I'm talking to about all this stuff. I'm trusting you, Zeke. I just gotta hope that you're one of the good guys.

 

 

I just don't see how Dean could have ever known and even if he did know, let Sam kill himself...again like in s5. 

 

 

ETA: It was still Sam's final decision to stop the trials either way, though. If he did it for Dean then he was never willing to own up that he stopped FOR Dean. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I read Sam as suicidal at not only the end of S8 but in S9 post-Kevin as well.  But I also think he didn't START that way.  When he took on the trials he was sincere in that he thought there was another way.  But I think the trials DID make him feel like shit physically and that can wear you down. Now add in his doubts about himself as a human and feeling he failed Dean.  I think he just wanted EVERYTHING over.  Now I think Sam would DENY that he was suicidal but as the trials went on, I think he knew he was going to die. And so now he could go out in that blaze of glory, having purified himself.  He wouldn't have committed suicide by just sticking a gun in his mouth IMO.  He was committing "suicide by sacrifice".  He should have stopped after the first trial.  He hid the effects from Dean but he had already started the Doc Holliday crap.  

 

Then add in the tons of foreshadowing that Sam was taking Dean's comments/actions and ALWAYS presuming they meant Sam was incompetent.  Sometimes it was just Dean worrying about Sam because that's his role but Sam saw it as criticism.  It doesn't have to make sense to a third party, it just seemed like that was how Sam was taking stuff.  Dean wants Sam to "tag out" and Dean do the trials (because he's worried for Sam), Sam thinks Dean doesn't trust him.  Dean didn't want Sam to go to Hell alone, Sam got pissed off.  Sam, in his semi-delusional state, says the trials are "purifying him".  Showing how deep-seated his fears of "inherently evil" are. And then Dean has to give that shit-list of bad-things to confess, showing he's completely unaware of Sam's mental state.  

 

But if you add up everything, Sam may not have intended suicide but as the trials went on, I think he started gravitating to them as yet another form of escape. 

 

I pretty much agree with you here, except with one somewhat big caveat. For me, I think it was a more gradual thing with one final shove for Sam. I think like you said, that he started out optimistic, but as things got worse and worse, he was slowly preparing for the fact that he might die, but with still some reservations and hope that he wouldn't until he reached the breaking point. And I think the thing that really, really pushed him over the suicide cliff was the one thing that ironically Crowley did hoping for the opposite effect. For me, I really think it was Crowley killing those people they had originally saved, undoing some of the good Sam and Dean had done, and I think Sarah dying in front of Sam with nothing he could do to save her and him feeling that it was his fault that just made whatever thin thread Sam had left snap. I think that was it for him. I agree with you, rue721, that Sam was tired of people having to die for him and/or his causes, and Sarah was a final huge blow. She represented the good and real that he couldn't necessarily have but that he and Dean sacrificed for so others could have to make it all worth it. And poof Crowley destroyed that in moments

 

 

What I disliked about the church scene was not Sam's breakdown but how weaksauce Dean's argument about why stop.  "Think about what we know...' speech was not remotely compelling.  The real facts: Dean didn't want Sam to die and he'd have said anything to get him to stop.  Sam got that Dean needed him to stop and he didn't want to disappoint him.  So he stopped.  There was never a good Plan B for taking care of demons.  At least not one that held much water.

 

I didn't so much dislike it, because I thought it made sense for Dean's mental state. And I agree with rue721, that one of the main reasons Sam stopped was because he saw what it was doing to Dean. I also think it was one of the reasons Sam was angry about Dean keeping on with his delusion that rue mentioned above. One of Sam's specific complaints in their big argument was that they weren't any further along in solving the angel and demon problem - in my opinion trying to point out to Dean that his insistence on that was a bunch of crap. And I agree rue, just admit it and get it over with.

 

I think that the SL you're describing about his "work" corrupting him even as he's getting stronger and better at it was Sam's SL in S4, and Sam coming to feel like he didn't care if he died in the process because he was a piece of shit anyway, was Sam's SL in S5 -- though in S5, I think that what was paramount to him was still actually righting the wrong that he felt he'd committed, by starting the Apocalypse and letting Lucifer walk free, and he was sacrificing himself to right that wrong, with death just as a consequence.

 

I actually think both happened in season 4, very similar to what catrox described. For me the reason Sam was suicidal in season 4 was because he felt that drinking the demon blood to kill Lilith was turning him into a monster, and it was the reason that he truly expected and didn't care if he died in order to achieve that goal. I more saw season 5 as all about Sam wanting to fix what he did wrong and prove to Dean that he could be trusted again. I didn't really see Sam as wanting death in season 5. he accepted it as a consequence, but he wasn't suicidal like he was in season 4.

 

It was how it played out with Sam being sick and hiding his sickness from Dean that I never once intrepreted as Sam hiding that he WANTED to die. That death was better than him living.

 

I actually agree with you here. I don't think Sam started out that way. I even heard a bit of hopefulness I thought in that Sam thought that he was being purified. As I said, for me, where I think it all went wrong was that even with all of the doubts and pressures building up and how Sam had let Dean down and made mistakes, Dean was still there and what they did mattered and they could continue doing that, except ... oh wait a minute, no it doesn't matter, because a demon can come along and undo it in a matter of moments and make even more people suffer and have to sacrifice with their lives for the cause. For me Sarah's death is what broke Sam here, what made him feel like crap, and think why should he live through this trial when innocent people like Sarah had to die for the cause. It's where he really got to thinking "Maybe this isn't one we can win."

 

So, I don't think Sam was suicidal for most of the second half of season 8, but by the time of the final episode, I think he'd finally gone over that edge of where he'd do anything to justify Sarah and the other innocents dying and if he died, too - good, because then no one else would be hurt on his behalf and that he just wasn't worth any more people dying for his causes. And I think that everything that transpired at the church just kept feeding into that cycle.

[rue721]

So, I don't think Sam was suicidal for most of the second half of season 8, but by the time of the final episode, I think he'd finally gone over that edge of where he'd do anything to justify Sarah and the other innocents dying and if he died, too - good, because then no one else would be hurt on his behalf and that he just wasn't worth any more people dying for his causes. And I think that everything that transpired at the church just kept feeding into that cycle.

 

For me, as soon as he told Dean that he should be the one to do the Trials because, unlike Dean, he planned to survive them, I was like BULLSHIT. Because he also was telling Dean that Dean was a genius hunter and it's not that he thought he was actually a better hunter than Dean was. And OK, maybe he truly felt that he had more will to live than Dean did (which isn't saying much, because Dean also isn't exactly Mr. Self Preservation in that sense, but anyway). But if he thought Dean faced certain death in the Trials, then it seems ridiculous to me that even if he thought he had more of a will to live than Dean did, he wouldn't have figured that his own odds of survival were still very, very low. Most people have a will to live, but everybody still dies. Wanting to live counts for something, but it's not a trump card. And it's the only thing that he thought he had over Dean, who he'd already pegged for certain death in the Trials.

 

I think Dean bought what Sam was saying partially because he's unable to grok how Sam feels about himself and always has been, and partially because they'd been down this road before, in S5, when Sam told him that Dean had to trust him to make his own choice -- and Sam's plan had actually worked out that time, it was a good thing after all that Dean had trusted him then.

 

The thing for me that makes me want to throw my hands up with them and just figure they're both suicidal, is that *neither* of them needed to do the trials, both of them could have just been like "screw this." They could have just kept hunting their Wendigos and stuff, they didn't *need* to go so far as to try and close up Hell. But then again, I felt the same way about the whole brouhaha over Abaddon. This "running Hell" stuff isn't really their business, imo, and it's OK if they want to take it on, but why they have to go it alone as martyrs Idk. I get not wanting to hang out with a bunch of hunters, since, as a group, they tend to be batshit and unhygienic. But for a gigantic project, your team might have to get a little larger, you know? Well anyway.

 

And in general, I guess the "saving people" is more interesting to me than the "hunting things," so I don't care very much about the mytharc stuff that is only going to save people in a roundabout or abstract way or that's more oriented toward killing than toward saving. That's another reason why I like this season better than the previous two. Saving Dean is a mission that I totally get the point of and that I want to see happen. In a way that I didn't really get or care about the trials or killing Abaddon.

[SueB]

Well let me just roll out my rant #89027: Why the hell did they think they should shut the gates of Hell in the first place?  I really believe they never thought that thru enough.  I'd love for Death or someone to yell at them for screwing up their lives since S8 began because they went after a big "God-lever" without actually knowing full impact.  Saving the world from an early Angel-inspired Apocalypse: good call.  Deciding to board up Hell?  Are you sure that's the right thing?  Will bad people still go to hell or run around as evil ghosts?  Inquiring minds want to know. 

[DittyDotDot]

That's kind of a big thing for him to say Sam was suicidal vs sacrificial.  I mean isn't that the entire reason Sam didn't want Dean to do the trials because he thought Dean was suicidal.  And for S9 does that mean Sam really did WANT to die?

 

I'm not sure I'd really call Sam suicidal as much as just not caring if he lived or died anymore. I think of suicidal as actively wanting to be dead, but to me Sam just didn't care either way and would accept whatever happened, he was just tired of it all, IMO. I definitely think when Sam started the Trials, he really thought this would all turn out okay and was optimistic this would be a win for them. 

 

I believe that's why he hid the effects of what the Trials were doing to him from Dean, I think it was a form of denial and he really wanted to believe what he told Dean in Trial and Error. But once he was forced to admit to Dean he was sick, I think he had to give up that pretense. From then on, I think Sam knew he was probably going to die, so he started clutching to the idea the Trials were purifying him and his death would actually be worth it in the end. I don't think the Trials were actually purifying him, but Sam needed to believe they were, IMO, because he needed something good to come of it. I came to see it as a terminally ill person coming to terms with dying than being actually suicidal.

 

Then Crowley starts going around killing all those people they had saved and he starts doubting if his death will really have any meaning in the end. I think he's really on the fence about finishing until Dean starts reminding him of all the wrong things he's done and then overhears Dean tell Cass he needs a babysitter--at that point, I think he's just tired and tired and tired and just doesn't have one little shit to give anymore. I'm not sure he wishes he was dead, but just wishes for it to stop so he can get a little relief. I just don't think he cared either way anymore; just make it stop.

 

I guess, in a sense, it was suicidal at the end--especially since the Trials were not a necessity, but a choice. Maybe this just boils down to what one thinks of as suicidal?

 

So if Jared thought Sam was suicidal does that mean that Dean actually did the right thing by letting GadZeke's possess Sam.  Does that mean that Sam didn't care that Dean was also essentially suicidal in s9 and that he would have let Dean kill himself vs sacrificing for the greater good.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. Are you saying that because suicide is "wrong" it makes it "right" for Dean to force Sam to live even if he doesn't want to and vice versa? I guess, to me, there's no direct right and wrong in these situations. It all lays in the grey for me and is left up to each individual person to decide what they consider right and wrong for themselves.  

 

 

 

Well let me just roll out my rant #89027: Why the hell did they think they should shut the gates of Hell in the first place?  I really believe they never thought that thru enough.  I'd love for Death or someone to yell at them for screwing up their lives since S8 began because they went after a big "God-lever" without actually knowing full impact.  Saving the world from an early Angel-inspired Apocalypse: good call.  Deciding to board up Hell?  Are you sure that's the right thing?  Will bad people still go to hell or run around as evil ghosts?  Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

Yeah, everything that's went to shit in the last three years can be traced back to them wanting to give a big "screw you" to Hell. If they'd just left well enough alone and accepted there would always be good and bad in the universe, all should've been fine, right? But, it's really not in the Winchester's playbook to accept things as they are, now is it? ;)

Edited March 13, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

 

But, it's really not in the Winchester's playbook to accept things as they are, now is it? ;)

Totally fair.  But I'd like someone like Death or God to ask them why they thought they should make that decision. 

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I totally agree! If for nothing else...I do love me some death. ;)

[catrox14]

@DittyDotDot. I was just musing on the implications of Jared's thoughts about Sam, which really do seem different than what I thinks he's suggested before. And maybe he was just trying to use Sam's plight as some inspiration or something people could relate to. But it just seems to not comport with what I was intrepreting in the back half of s8 re Sam. MV as always.

To me Sam was probably thinking he might die but I never thought he gave up hope at all in s8.and o never got from Jared's acting that there was any subtext that Sam was suicidal. If Sam was having all those self doubts and self loathing, Dean was still trying to bolster him and look after him to the end of s8. He  may have listed the stuff to ask for forgiveness for but I thought that was Dean being an ass to Sam because he was being an ass, which that entire bit didn't make since because he already told Sam that Sam did good than bad even with the demon blood stuff and the Apocalypse.  How ironic(?) that Sam said the complete opposite to Dean about Dean in the Purge.  Sigh.

My questions were more existentia (?) I guess. If I knew someone was suicidal and I didn't try to help them to find some light to keep going I would feel bad about that. That doesn't mean I don't respect them either or that I'm being patronizing about their illness or state of mind. I would just try to encourage them to keep fighting for another day. 

 

In the case of someone with a terminal illness with absolutely no hope of recovery and  the person no longer wanted to suffer, then it's all about their care and comfort to the end of their life. If they wanted to end it before they died naturally, I don't think I would stand in their way. 

 

To me Dean was making a choice to intervene and stop Sam from dying because Dean believed there was another way and he didn't want Sam to die. To me that's the parallel to s5 when Sam put Dean on lockdown when Sam was convinced  Dean was going to kill himself by saying yes to Michael and Sam kept saying they would find another way.
 

Totally fair. But I'd like someone like Death or God to ask them why they thought they should make that decision.

 

I don't think God really can question the "should" of it, considering God bailed on them in s5 and left it to them to save the planet when God didn't think it was his/her/it's problem anymore. He left it up to TFW and it worked-ish.

Now they have the chance to keep demons and angels from taking over humanity one soul at a time. That is a good enough reason for me.

I don't think Death would care either way. Humans are still going to die and he'll still reap them. I would think no matter which gates are closed Death would find a way in since he is more powerful than God essentially since he will reap God one day. Death seems to be the only truly immortal creature in the universe.


That's another thing I hated about Tessa and the Reapers (new band name) in s9. Why couldn't a reaper get around and back into heaven? Oh right because they changed reapers into angels /rolls eyes. Ugh. Before that reapers weren't held to the angel rules because they were there own species essentially. Sigh. More canon destruction for plot reasons. Which raises a question, would closing the gates of Hell, close the portal via Purgatory? I bet not.

BTW Can Death die? What kind of punishment would Death face if he had nowhere to take souls? Does Death answer to anyone? Maybe the soul just stays on Earth with its meat suit or goes to oblivion. Maybe it doesn't need to go anywhere to find peace. Maybe Death would just retire and let humanity die and bury and burn it's corpses and he stays out of it.

Ohhh I have an alternate ending in which everybody lives!

Death retires to Chicago and opens a pizzeria with Dean. They would serve cronuts and fried pickle chips too. Sam becomes a professor at Northwestern teaching lore and stuff. Cas becomes permanently human and opens a homeless shelter/relief center in Chicago. Crowley is locked in Hell with Rowena for all eternity. Humanity will sort itself out.

Edited March 13, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I love your alternate ending. But since I love Crowley, I'd want him to get permanently human (his meatsuit is centuries old, I'm going to hope the person gets a Heavenly pass if Crowley is cured). The Crowley could open a bar (with Karyoke) and psychoanalyze ll the patrons with scotch and stories.

Edited March 13, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I love your alternate ending. But since I love Crowley, I'd want him to get permanently human (his meatsuit is centuries old, I'm going to hope the person gets a Heavenly pass if Crowley is cured). The Crowley could open a bar (with Karyoke) and psychoanalyze ll the patrons with scotch and stories.

 

 

I will never ever forgive Crowley for turning Dean into a demon or leading him to that path. For me his fitting punishment is to get what he's apparently always wanted. His mother.

[AwesomO4000]

To me Sam was probably thinking he might die but I never thought he gave up hope at all in s8

 

I'll have to re-watch to see how long it lasted, but he was pretty pessimistic after Sarah died. Sam even considered giving in to Crowley's demands and said "Maybe this isn't one we can win." Dean was the one who told him that they could and who came up with the plan to trap Crowley. But that still didn't bring Sarah back, so I think Sam was now a little bit going through the motions, and not really sure it was going to work any more. I also think his over-hearing Dean didn't help. Dean didn't mean for him to hear that, and may not have meant for that to sound like it did, but in Sam's mind, it was somewhat contradicting Dean's rah rah pep talk from earlier, and his brain - and I could see this in Sam's expression and tone - was saying "great, now Dean doesn't even think I can do this." And I think by that point, as DittyDotDot said above, Sam was just done with it: he'd go down swinging, but he wasn't necessarily expecting much, nor did he think it really mattered much anymore one way or the other. He also seemed to be under the impression that he was going to die one way or the other - i.e. whether he finished the trials or not - and he pretty much didn't care and at least he wouldn't cause any more problems...

 

And I think that's the part that maybe most equates to suicidal: When Sam started to believe that the world would be better off if he was no longer in it and/or that saving him wasn't worth the cost. In that way it was kind of similar - but not as dark - as his being suicidal in season 4. Because in season 4, Sam seemed to be actively choosing to go down the suicidal mission path for a good part of the end of the season, and even though he knew it was going to end very, very badly for his soul, he didn't give a shit and/or thought he deserved it. By the end, Sam wasn't at all buying Ruby's lines of bullcrap about how when it was all over "Dean would understand " and he'd come through it just fine, but he didn't care anymore.

 

So maybe the end of season 8 wasn't the active destruction of himself that season 4 was... more of a letting himself fade away and thinking the world would be better off for it.

[trxr4kids]

Maybe I'm particularly dense but I thought Sam saying the trials were cleansing him made zero sense but I also can't wrap my head around the idea that he was suicidal at any point. I think there's a big difference between accepting the inevitable as it becomes obvious and taking on a suicide mission forewarned.  I don't understand the cleansing aspect even if only in Sam's mind because Sam was resurrected in s6, fresh body, no demon blood, no taint. Does Sam have even bigger sense of self blame and self loathing than Dean, that he believes that even though he saved the world and went to hell for like 100 years it didn't redeem him or at least wipe the slate? I have to say if that's true, then to me, him talking Dean out of doing the trials because Dean was realistic about the outcome and was willing to pay the price seems hypocritical. It's coming across to me that Sam thinks it was fine for him to do a suicide mission because of his past sins but not for Dean and that it was fine for him to lie to Dean about it to save him but not for Dean to do the same. Just bah! Also if he was so ready to die why did he even stop the trials, why say yes to letting Dean save him? Maybe he did it for Dean without caring about the consequences of what he was agreeing to which is exactly what Dean did, so why all drama? I'm sick of manufactured, convoluted friction just for the sake of angst and that's how I see S8 and S9 for the most part.

 

I also don't see why Sarah's death was supposed to be more tragic or personal to Sam than it was to Dean, they had a flirtation egged on by Dean and mostly for the case, a brief kiss and never stayed in touch. I would've loved to see her become more, she had ally and friend/ g/f potential but it didn't happen.

[catrox14]

So many problems for me with that church scene on so many levels. None of it made any sense to me at all.  But then the opening to s9 made even less sense.  Contrivance be thy name under Carver's tutelage IMO.

 

I also, have a hard time thinking that Sarah's death triggered Sam into his 'So' moment in the church. She was never mentioned in the show that I can recall once that case was over.  Now, for me the threat to Jody I could see being a trigger point had she actually died. Jody is family by now. Jody is the one person other than Bobby who has known them the longest. She is the big sister/cool aunt/kind of mother figure for the boys.  The threat to her life is the one that could compel them to stand down. So bringing Sarah into the mix was pointless to me. I had only been a few days at most between Sarah's death and Crowley going after Jody.  Which OH FUCK YOU Crowley.  You leave Jody alone.

 

I thought Sam displayed a lot of fight in the church with Crowley. He didn't seem at all like he was giving up or that he wanted to die or even that he thought he would die.  I did think he was willing to die if that's what it took to save other lives, not because he thought he no longer deserved to live.  But when Dean shows up to get him, it's all "SO". It gave me whiplash because I was like...um. wat?  Bleh. 

 

But back to them giving up with Crowley, even that was a ruse essentially. And even it had turned out to be legitimate surrender to Crowley,it just meant the gates of Hell stay open and they have the monster-ey, demon-y, ghosty problems they've had since the end of s2. 

 

Sam chose to live in that moment and whether that was for Dean or himself, I don't think really matters. It showed me that Sam didn't really want to die. Not really.

Edited March 13, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I also don't see why Sarah's death was supposed to be more tragic or personal to Sam than it was to Dean,

 

As I hinted at above, I think Sarah was sort of Sam's Lisa before Dean and Lisa actually became involved again. She represented someone they saved who did have the life they were fighting for other people to have. She had a home, husband, a child(ren), and she was happy, and poof: her child an orphan, her husband a widow, their family ruined - all gone in front of Sam's eyes and he could do nothing to stop it. He'd made a connection, however briefly with her, and until that happened, he could know that at least she was safe and happy. So yes, I think it was more personal for Sam, especially because she died right in front of him and there was nothing he could do.

 

She [sarah] was never mentioned in the show that I can recall once that case was over.

 

I think Dean hinted at her at least once, suggesting that they could go visit her, because a case they had finished was nearby, but I don't remember what episode it was or if I am remembering that wrong. If I am remembering correctly, I am thinking that Sam was wistful and considered it for a second, but in the end shook his head and decided it was for the best that he didn't go.

 

It's coming across to me that Sam thinks it was fine for him to do a suicide mission because of his past sins but not for Dean and that it was fine for him to lie to Dean about it to save him but not for Dean to do the same. Just bah!

 

I really do think that in the beginning, Sam had hope for things coming out okay and that he did fully intend to do the trials with the attitude that he was going to make it through, whereas he thought Dean was more likely to do the trials with a "go out in a blaze of glory" and "take more chances because I don't care if I live or die" attitude. And based on precedence - like Dean wanting to give up in "Croatoan" and Dean making the deal, Sam wasn't necessarily wrong to have that worry. However, I think the reality of the trials was a bit more than he expected, and as he went along, he started to doubt more.

 

I thought Sam displayed a lot of fight in the church with Crowley. He didn't seem at all like he was giving up or that he wanted to die or even that he thought he would die.

 

I'll have to watch that whole scene again. I'm remembering that completely pissed off and revenge seemed to be part of his motivation there. And I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard there is a bonus / cut scene where Sam tells Crowley specifically that if the trial works, and Crowley is human, he still intends to kill him? Which if so, wow, and yeah - not just wanting to finish the trials anymore, but a little bit of not giving a crap and/or I'm taking you with me there in my opinion.

 

My brain is hurting, and I am wondering why I'm trying to analyze season 8. I hated season 8. But mostly: somewhat suicidal Sam at least makes more sense to me than "Oh no, Dean is gone and/or may be dead and Crowley got Kevin! Oh well, not my problem, guess I'll ignore that and and go eat organic apples and be a handyman even though my mechanical skills would make Dean cry" Sam at the beginning of season 8. I can't even find a way to remotely explain that one.

[rue721]

My questions were more existential (?) I guess. If I knew someone was suicidal and I didn't try to help them to find some light to keep going I would feel bad about that. That doesn't mean I don't respect them either or that I'm being patronizing about their illness or state of mind. I would just try to encourage them to keep fighting for another day. 

 

In the case of someone with a terminal illness with absolutely no hope of recovery and  the person no longer wanted to suffer, then it's all about their care and comfort to the end of their life. If they wanted to end it before they died naturally, I don't think I would stand in their way.

 

I think that the issue is whether you think you're being attacked by something that's not "you" -- like a poison or a disease or a weapon -- or if you think what's attacking you is intrinsic to you, it *is* you -- like your own mind or soul or the blood in your veins is working against you.

 

Dean always thinks of threats to Sam as separate from Sam himself -- so if he gets rid of the threat, he's able to save Sam. I think he was thinking of it like, Sam had this terminal illness (from the trials) but, miraculously, Dean had a way to save his life. So of course he went ahead and said OK to Sam's life being saved. He was obviously worried about what Sam would think about the price being asked, but imo he thought that at the end of it, Sam would be "cured" and that was what really mattered. I think he figured that he'd deal with the consequences himself, and he'd be willing to deal with *any* consequences, no matter how difficult, if it meant Sam would be OK.

 

But Sam always thinks of threats to himself as *intrinsic* to himself. Something is fundamentally wrong *with him.* There's not a way to get rid of the threat to him without getting rid *of him,* because the threat *is* him. That's more like how people think of mental or neurological illness, where the person and the disorder can't really be separated that cleanly. I think Sam was thinking of it more like, he will FINALLY be able to vanquish this threat, but the threat is intrinsic to him, so the rest of him might have to die in the process. And I think he eventually came to want the rest of him to die, too, because he wanted the peace and the certainty that the threat would never come back.

 

So (Dean) "saving" him meant undermining his ability to vanquish the greatest threat to him. Because by saving Sam, Dean was also saving what was *bad* or *wrong* about Sam (and the proof that that part of Sam had been "saved" too is that, by not dying, he managed to kill Kevin).

 

I think that Dean is more "correct" in that I also don't think that Sam has some intrinsic malignancy to him. But I also think that Sam's fear isn't coming from nowhere. Him being one of YED's ~chosen ones~ basically ruined his family's lives, killed his mother...and I mean, even fans joke around about his dick-o-death. And stuff like being the perfect vessel for Lucifer...I mean, that's got to be a headtrip. I don't think it's crazy that he thinks he's cursed or doomed. But I love that Dean can't even wrap his mind around the idea that that could be the case, let alone also believe it. lol.

 

Anyway, I think something else that's important in the context is that this wasn't just one crisis, where a person could just be cured or talked down from the ledge or something. This was the latest crisis in an unending string of crises. OK I'll think more about that instead of babbling, and hopefully will have something useful to say later.

[SueB]

I think that the issue is whether you think you're being attacked by something that's not "you" -- like a poison or a disease or a weapon -- or if you think what's attacking you is intrinsic to you, it *is* you -- like your own mind or soul or the blood in your veins is working against you.

 

...

I think that Dean is more "correct" in that I also don't think that Sam has some intrinsic malignancy to him. But I also think that Sam's fear isn't coming from nowhere. Him being one of YED's ~chosen ones~ basically ruined his family's lives, killed his mother...and I mean, even fans joke around about his dick-o-death. And stuff like being the perfect vessel for Lucifer...I mean, that's got to be a headtrip. I don't think it's crazy that he thinks he's cursed or doomed. But I love that Dean can't even wrap his mind around the idea that that could be the case, let alone also believe it. lol.

 

Anyway, I think something else that's important in the context is that this wasn't just one crisis, where a person could just be cured or talked down from the ledge or something. This was the latest crisis in an unending string of crises. OK I'll think more about that instead of babbling, and hopefully will have something useful to say later.

I agree about the build-up.  And it broke my heart in S9's Rock and a Hard Place when he said: 

SAM Why does it have to be something else? It's always something else. We're always scraping to find some other explanation when maybe it is... just me.

DEAN Oh, come on, Sam.

SAM I'm a mess, Dean. You know it. And sometimes, I feel like maybe I'm never gonna actually be all right.

 

*emphasis mine

 

And then look at him in The Purge (yes, right in the middle of that nasty rant):

SAM:...Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind, we’re no closer to beating this angel thing, please tell me, what is the upside to me being alive?

*emphasis mine

 

Seriously, dude still thinks he should be dead and that people die because he lives.  We don't him express this very often.  And not at all in S10.  In S10 we see a more sophisticated version of Sam from Mystery Spot.  In Mystery Spot he was all focus, incredibly driven to save Dean.  He's still got that single-mindedness but he's working it out with a lot more nuances.  He's monitoring Dean's state and trying to be just the right kind of supportive when it's needed. He's actually relying on Cas to help him through this.  But while this is happening, he's completely put on hold his own trauma of the Angel possession/killing Kevin and whether or not he (Sam) should be alive.  And I suspect his self-esteem is going to be directly tied to his ability to SAVE DEAN.  If he fails to save Dean, I swear Sam would drive off a cliff in an instant.  He literally cannot fail Dean again in his mind.  I guess what I'm saying is that I think this story isn't over yet.  Sam's put his sense of "wrongness" on a back-burner but it'll come back I expect.

[trxr4kids]

I get what you're saying with the Lisa comparison Awesom0400 but again I really didn't think there was any deep connection with her either, that relationship felt forced for sl reasons and not legitimate to me, MMV.

You know maybe it's a result of so many gratuitous character deaths but I also don't get the big deal about *Kevin. Sam and Dean kinda treated him like crap but whammo he's dead so now they care and feel responsible. It's just more forced angst.

 

* Yet another wasted character that could've/should've had some connection with Sam even if only in a mentorship capacity.

 

ETA: If Sam still feels some sort of wrongness or taint after his redemption via Swan Song, there really is no hope for him as far as I can see. He already made the ultimate sacrifice. Dean has really had no redemption for his part in the apocalypse, he started the whole thing by selling his soul and breaking in hell and instead of penance he got to take a year off living the apple pie life while grieving for his fallen hero of a brother. In other words, even though I'm sick of it, Dean's self hate makes way more sense to me than Sam's. If Sam has any **blame or ***guilt for anything, it should, from a character stand point be for anything post his S6 resouling.

 

**Not that that stopped Dean from blaming him for being soulless at the church.

*** Isn't it Sam who has told Dean he shouldn't have guilt for things that weren't his fault or let others blame him for things beyond his control? Hello pot, meet kettle.

Edited March 13, 2015 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I think Sarah was important to show both Sam and Dean's differing perspectives, not only Sam. Sarah was someone they helped a long time ago and she's went on to live a live and be happy. She represented all the things they do that's good, IMO. For Sam, her death showed him all the good things they've done was for naught and didn't want to see any of the other people they saved die. For Dean, Sarah's death (and all the other deaths) would be pointless unless they finished closing the gates of Hell. I think the same thing could've happened if they'd gotten a chance to talk to the Wendigo kid or Jenny Kline or any of the others Crowley targeted. It's just that Sarah was the person they actually got a chance to make that personal connection to. Granted, I'm probably largely basing my observations on a scene that was deleted from Sacrifice where Sam and Dean argue about whether or not to take Crowley's deal.

 

I don't think it was only Sarah that drove Sam to give up, but all of it. The physical strain of the Trials; Crowley killing people they've saved; Dean appearing to lose faith in Sam; his own feelings of doubt; all of it was pressing down on Sam, IMO. Again, I don't think of it as suicidal, because I don't think Sam wanted to be dead, but I think he just didn't care one way or the other anymore.

[catrox14]

So I've been rewatching s9 and I was watching I'm No Angel.  Dean stabbed the rapey reaper that and did not look away when he did it.  I'm wondering if that is a continuity error or if it meant anything.  Dean looked away when Tessa threw herself on the RB . Any ideas?

Edited March 14, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

Dean has always been able to look at an Angel kill.  I think Tessa's kill was more emotionally difficult than just brightness.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I think he was staring right at Zachariah when he stabbed him in the throat. I'm not remembering any others right now though.

[catrox14]

Hmmm. He wasn't able to tolerate Cas trying to communicate with him and he looked away when Anna blew up.  I wonder if that changed when it was declared to be Michael's vessel. Now I'm kind of stupidly obsessed with understanding this.

[7kstar]

Kind of an interesting perspective of Sam and shows the end of season 8 http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/supernatural_season_8_sam_winchesters_lowest_point_plus_high_praise_for_jared_padalecki-2013-05

 

I think we are just really suppose to look at the Key moments from the speeches.  Sam feeling all he's ever done is let Dean down and so Dean has to turn to an angel or vampire for help.

 

Dean needing Sam to get that nothing matters more to him than Sam and he would let the one's that killed mom walk if it meant saving Sam.

 

both are willing to die and neither is willing to let the other die.

 

I blame the writing not being planned out well enough that the shifts don't work...but it does give us lots of stuff to focus on and think about.  Which I think is something the writers just don't do.  They write the stories, but they don't think about it the way the fans do. 

 

Season 8 and 9 may feel better after some time goes by and I know there are fans that thought they could never enjoy season 6 or 7 and now do more than they did live. 

 

I know when I watch the speech by itself I came to appreciate it more than when I watched it with the entire ep.  JMV.

 

I can agree with  a lot that people are saying, but in the end I just want to see the brother's working together and bringing back the fun into the mix of being with each other.  I guess that's too much to ask for.  It's why I think my favs or still in season 1-3 with a few in the later seasons.

[rue721]

I guess it changes things if Sam really thought that if he went after Dean (after he disappeared in the S7 finale) -- or Cas, or Kevin -- that he'd hurt him more than he'd help him. Like if he really did think that whenever he got involved in something, he made it worse.

 

It seems kind of mindblowing to me that Sam could think that, because he's meanwhile involving himself in weird hunting cases every day...but I guess at that point, he wasn't doing that, either?

 

I don't really know what TPTB were thinking about his mental state at that point (S7 finale/S8 premier through S8). I kind of don't even like thinking of it as being that low. That's a petty big downer. And he didn't *seem* like someone feeling that bad, but maybe that's because of poor communication between TPTB and Jared Padalecki.***

 

***It feels weird to refer to people who I don't know at all by just their first names, so I always have the impulse to use the actors' full names when I refer to them. Though at the same time, it seems silly to specify that this is Jared PADALECKI who I'm talking about, because what other "Jared" could I possibly mean in that context? So I *try* to use first names only at times, it just feels weird...But anyway, what's really annoying is that I cannot remember how to spell Padalecki for the life of me and have to google it EVERY TIME. Fingers crossed that one day I'll either become comfortable not using his last name or learn how to spell it.

[catrox14]

The more I think about "Sacrifice" the more I find it even more non-sensical and frustrating.

 

I could buy Sam's self-loathing about letting Dean down and Dean having to turn to an angel and a vampire, if EVER they had Sam directly, textually talk about why he didn't look for Dean other than "I thought you were dead" and the non-agreement.

 

What if Sam had actually been able to find a way into Purgatory...you know maybe via the rogue reaper who knew how to get there?  So for me the entire idea of Sam filled with guilt and self loathing and feeling dirty seems to have literally nothing to actually do with Sam's inaction in s8 but dredges up the stuff that he supposedly had made peace in s6. Which I absolutely bought that Sam made peace with it. I don't think the Hallucifernations were because he still felt dirty. I thought it was because Lucifer fucked with him so much in the Cage that it messes with his head now.  But not because Sam didn't mean what he said in s6.

 

That's why I just cannot get on board with the speech in Sacrifice. Sam never felt remotely guilty for not looking for Dean but they essentially built the speech around Dean's friendship with a vampire which happened because Dean was stuck in Purgatory.

 

And if Sam was so messed up and/or determined to just get on with his life after Dean went missing, why the hell would they not specifically discuss that? And why did Sam even include Cas?? Dean was friends with Cas for like....years now which Sam never seemed particularly bothered about.