All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DittyDotDot]

The whole death thing is kinda disingenuous simply because there have been times when someone died but was reversed by the end of the episode. Wishful Thinking comes to mind. Sam was struck by lightning and Dean was choked to death by Todd (KNEEL BEFORE TODD!! Hee!), but the wishes were reversed as though that never really happened. So, then did they die?

A few deaths off the top of my head:

• Sam also died in The Song Remains the Same and Micheal fixed him. 
• Both Sam and Dean died in Death Takes a Holiday so they could go walk around as ghosts.
• They both died, for a while, in First Blood.
• Dean died, for a while, in Appointment in Sumarra.

 

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

What other deaths is the wiki missing? Off the top of my head I know they've missed

• Dean's deaths in Mystery Spot (though these are arguable I suppose as they took place in a pocket dimension created by Gabriel if I remember correctly)
• Sam and Dean's death at the hands of Rory and Walt during Dark Side of the Moon.
• Dean's time in purgatory... Does it count as a death? Or as dimensional travel akin to travelling back in time or going to the Alt!Dimension?

• Mystery Spot wasn't a pocket dimension, Gabriel created a time loop where the same day was repeated over and over and over again. At the end, he just reversed time again, but turned off the auto repeat, so to speak. So, like Wishful Thinking, technically the deaths never happened, but they did happen...my head hurts.
• Dark Side of the Moon they definitely died and were brought back later, so that one seems kinda straightforward-ish.
• Dean wasn't dead in Purgatory. He was transported to Purgatory alive.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Idahoforspn
Double post

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Why would his deaths by hellhounds and Metatron not count? As far as I can recall they took place in this timeline and this world? I'm not sure how it could be argued they don't count as they belonged to mystery spot like alternative dimensions? 

 

I guess I wasn't very clear. I think hellhound and Metatron count but mystery spot and purgatory don't. Sorry.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

 

• Mystery Spot wasn't a pocket dimension, Gabriel created a time loop where the same day was repeated over and over and over again. At the end, he just reversed time again, but turned off the auto repeat, so to speak. So, like Wishful Thinking, technically the deaths never happened, but they did happen...my head hurts.

And Dean did spend six months in hell being tortured without breaking. My head hurts too.

Quote

•  

Edited May 31, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[catrox14]

A few thoughts on that death list.

 

Dean: 

• AFAIK, Mystery Spot wasn't an alternate reality. The alternate reality was in Changing Channels. But in Mystery Spot, The Trickster altered time. He didn't create a separate world.  So Dean did die at least 100 times on a Tuesday. The Trickster kept putting Sam back in time to relive that Sam day over and over.  Dean did die on that Wednesday when he was shot by Cal, and The Trickster said Dean was already doing the rumba in Hell for the 6 months that Sam had gone RoboSam.  So Dean died at least 101 times in Mystery Spot.

Quote

You're right. I was just screwing with you. Pretty good, though, Sam. Smart. Let me tell you, whoever said Dean was the dysfunctional one has never seen you with a sharp object in your hands. Holy Full Metal Jacket.

SAM
Bring him back.

TRICKSTER
Who, Dean? Didn't my girl send you flowers? Dean's dead. He ain't coming back. His soul's downstairs doing the hellfire rumba as we speak.

SAM
Just take us back to that Tuesday—er, Wednesday—when it all started. Please. We won't come after you, I swear.

TRICKSTER
You swear.

SAM
Yes.

TRICKSTER
I don't know. Even if I could—

SAM
You can.

TRICKSTER
True. But that don't mean I should. Sam, there's a lesson here that I've been trying to drill into that freakish Cro-Magnon skull of yours.

SAM
Lesson? What lesson?

TRICKSTER
This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean's your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It's gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go.

SAM
He's my brother.

TRICKSTER
Yup. And like it or not, this is what life's gonna be like without him.

SAM
Please. Just—please.

TRICKSTER
I swear, it's like talking to a brick wall. Okay, look. This all stopped being fun months ago. You're Travis Bickle in a skirt, pal. I'm over it.

SAM
Meaning what?

TRICKSTER
Meaning that's for me to know and you to find out.

The TRICKSTER snaps his fingers.

 

• I'm not sure about Dean in  In My Time of Dying. He was on life support, that's why Tessa came to reap him. I don't think reapers showed up unless the person was dead. But I can see the argument either way. I won't count it for how.
• died by Hellhound mauling and was buried in a grave
•  Murdered by Roy and Walt in s5
• Died in Appointment at Samarra so that he could talk to Death.  He did flatline and was resurrected by  Dr. Freddy Krueger.
• Neither Dean nor Castiel died in S7.  They were sucked into the vortex to Purgatory that Dick Roman's death created. Dean himself said he didn't die, which was one of the reasons he was so angry about Sam not looking for him.
• Dean murdered by Metatron in s9.
• Died by barbituate OD  In s11 to save Sam
• Died by whatever way in First Blood in s12

So by my count Dean has dead at least 108  times.

************************

Sam:

• Murdered by Jake in s2
• Murdered by Roy and Walt in s5
• Struck by lightning in Wishing Thinking 
• Stabbed by Anna in Song Remains the Same
• Question:  Did Sam actually die when he went to Hell? The presumption is that he must have but he was actually alive and in control of his own meatsuit when he jumped into the Cage with Lucifer and Michael.  I know Awesom0 has the theory that Sam had a hell body but he also had his actual body in Hell too, so why bother with a hell body.  Did Lucifer kill him in the Cage and resurrect him? Did he just keep him alive the whole time?  I will never understand Sam's Hell time at all.
•  Died by whatever means in First Blood

By my count, Sam has died 6 times, if we count Sam going to Hell.

 

Castiel:
Killed by Raphael in s4
Killed by Lucifer in s5
Killed by the Leviathan in the beginning of s7 but resurrected somehow later in s7. 
Human Cas killed by the reaper in s9
Killed by Lucifer in s12 ( FUCK YOU LUCIFER YOU POS)

By my count, Castiel has died 5 times.

Edited May 31, 2017 by catrox14
edited because I forgot Dean death in s11 and both in s12

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And Dean did spend six months in hell being tortured without breaking. My head hurts too.

Maybe Dean wasn't being tortured in Hell for those 6 months but was just in a holding cell until the Trickster decided to bring him back?

But if he was being tortured that means Dean was in Hell for a total of 100 years and 100 days if every month = a year.

Maybe Dean doesn't remember the first 60 years of Hell because the trickster reset time but maybe when Dean got back to Hell, but during that break it gave Alastair more time to devise new ways to make Dean suffer so he would break  This actually makes me feel a little better about Dean breaking after 4 months or 40 years  vs John lasting 100 years. So then it really took Alastair and Co. more than 100 years for Dean to break. New Head!canon ...accepted. LOL

Edited May 31, 2017 by catrox14

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe Dean wasn't being tortured in Hell for those 6 months but was just in a holding cell until the Trickster decided to bring him back?

I think the Trickster actually made a comment to the effect that Dean was being tortured in hell. 

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But if he was being tortured that means Dean was in Hell for a total of 100 years and 100 days if every month = a year.

Maybe Dean doesn't remember the first 60 years of Hell because the trickster reset time but maybe when Dean got back to Hell, but during that break it gave Alastair more time to devise new ways to make Dean suffer so he would break  This actually makes me feel a little better about Dean breaking after 4 months or 40 years  vs John lasting 100 years. So then it really took Alastair and Co. more than 100 years for Dean to break. New Head!canon ...accepted. LOL

That's always been my head Canon although I've been told I'm wrong.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I think the Trickster actually made a comment to the effect that Dean was being tortured in hell. 

He said that Dean was doing the rumba in Hell. That could mean he was just there or he was being tortured.  But that's kind of a quibble really, because if he was there and wasn't being tortured himself he was there to hear others being tormented so that is like it's own torture.

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I think the Trickster actually made a comment to the effect that Dean was being tortured in hell. 

That's always been my head Canon although I've been told I'm wrong.

In a way, Dean not remembering his first stint in Hell, makes him breaking in 40 years even more tragic, because he doesn't even know that he was stronger than John in the end, so either way Alastair won really :(. The seal broke and he messed with Dean's mind. 

Ahh...this makes so many things work much better for me in a really awful way :(

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

Ahh...this makes so many things work much better for me in a really awful way :(

With you there!

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

He said that Dean was doing the rumba in Hell.

When the Trickster said Dean was doing the "hellfire" rumba, I equated it to torture but that's just me.

Quote

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

When the Trickster said Dean was doing the "hellfire" rumba, I equated it to torture but that's just me.

I do, too.  But, I also think that when the Trickster reversed everything, it means that as far as everyone except for The Trickster and Sam are concerned it didn't matter.  That includes Dean, his memory and body, the demons, everyone.  After it happened, it didn't happen.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

When the Trickster said Dean was doing the "hellfire" rumba, I equated it to torture but that's just me.

I understood. Thats why I said it was a quibble on my part. Dean was either being tortured or was in some other place aware otb the torture going on around him

[Idahoforspn]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understood. Thats why I said it was a quibble on my part. Dean was either being tortured or was in some other place aware otb the torture going on around him

Somebody told me there is a fanfiction about Dean's body somehow remembering (probably not the right word) the torture and what it had been through those 6 months even though Dean's mind didn't and that's why he broke in three months the second time. I thought it was a very interesting premise.  I tried to find it but never did.

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I do, too.  But, I also think that when the Trickster reversed everything, it means that as far as everyone except for The Trickster and Sam are concerned it didn't matter.  That includes Dean, his memory and body, the demons, everyone.  After it happened, it didn't happen.

I don't think the Trickster undid it though. He resurrected Dean and put them both back in the original timeline, so Whatever happened , happened. And whatever happens next, happens.

If it was that it never happened Sam wouldn't remember it happening. Dean doesn't remember because he was dead and resurrectedso for him it's a  new day. Basically IMO the trickster just put everyone back to the beginning but I don't think it erases what happened.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

If it was that it never happened Sam wouldn't remember it happening. Dean doesn't remember because he was dead and resurrectedso for him it's a  new day. Basically IMO the trickster just put everyone back to the beginning but I don't think it erases what happened.

This. I'm glad somebody else thinks this too. :-)

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure about Dean in  In My Time of Dying. He was on life support, that's why Tessa came to reap him. I don't think reapers showed up unless the person was dead. But I can see the argument either way. I won't count it for how.

Which leaves a sticky wicket in Season Four when Sam goes and makes Ruby find another body. She finds a comatose person who's soul had already left (i.e. been reaped) and took over the body that was on life support. Now she could have been lying, demon and all, but if a soul is wandering around outside of it's body seeing reapers than I think it does count as a death since he can be fully be reaped and almost was. He also had the option of staying on earth of course but given that's were ghosts come from and what happens to them, I don't see that as an argument for him not being dead enough to count. It simply seems that reapers come when there is zero hope for the body to recover regardless of medical intervention on this show.

I can see other arguments on that one like you and it's just my extra two cents. 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe Dean wasn't being tortured in Hell for those 6 months but was just in a holding cell until the Trickster decided to bring him back?

But if he was being tortured that means Dean was in Hell for a total of 100 years and 100 days if every month = a year.

Maybe Dean doesn't remember the first 60 years of Hell because the trickster reset time but maybe when Dean got back to Hell, but during that break it gave Alastair more time to devise new ways to make Dean suffer so he would break  This actually makes me feel a little better about Dean breaking after 4 months or 40 years  vs John lasting 100 years. So then it really took Alastair and Co. more than 100 years for Dean to break. New Head!canon ...accepted. LOL

While yes I prefer the head canon that Dean was there for 100 years simply because of that whole 'well John didn't break for that long but you did in less than half' crap, I think it's not what the writers had in mind to be honest on that episode. Gabriel had the powers of an archangel which includes shaping/creating whole separate realities. It would make more sense for him to yoink them out of earth's time for a few hours and stick them somewhere else where time was sped up to get Sam to 'learn a lesson'. Also, playing around with time like that would probably make him a huge target for heaven since we don't actually know Michael or Raphael's reactions to him at all and would get his family sniffing around which he definitely wouldn't want.

Unless, his reversing time reversed Michal and Raphael too and just...no. Not an option.

[Idahoforspn]

26 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Which leaves a sticky wicket in Season Four when Sam goes and makes Ruby find another body. She finds a comatose person who's soul had already left (i.e. been reaped) and took over the body that was on life support. Now she could have been lying, demon and all, but if a soul is wandering around outside of it's body seeing reapers than I think it does count as a death since he can be fully be reaped and almost was. He also had the option of staying on earth of course but given that's were ghosts come from and what happens to them, I don't see that as an argument for him not being dead enough to count. It simply seems that reapers come when there is zero hope for the body to recover regardless of medical intervention on this show.

I can see other arguments on that one like you and it's just my extra two cents. 

While yes I prefer the head canon that Dean was there for 100 years simply because of that whole 'well John didn't break for that long but you did in less than half' crap, I think it's not what the writers had in mind to be honest on that episode. Gabriel had the powers of an archangel which includes shaping/creating whole separate realities. It would make more sense for him to yoink them out of earth's time for a few hours and stick them somewhere else where time was sped up to get Sam to 'learn a lesson'. Also, playing around with time like that would probably make him a huge target for heaven since we don't actually know Michael or Raphael's reactions to him at all and would get his family sniffing around which he definitely wouldn't want.

Unless, his reversing time reversed Michal and Raphael too and just...no. Not an option.

Was Mystery Spot before they knew they were getting a writers strike? Dean was never supposed to go to hell, or be tortured, or the first seal to break or....

[Airmid]

19 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Was Mystery Spot before they knew they were getting a writers strike? Dean was never supposed to go to hell, or be tortured, or the first seal to break or....

Mystery Spot was supposed to be the season finale of the old season three plan before the writer's strike as the season's climax. Then they scrambled and filmed Jus in Bello while trying to cobble together another plan and being unsure if they would get any more episodes or if they did how many.

The problem with idea of Mystery Spot taking place on earth and Dean being in actual hell during all that time, comes later for me when they made the trickster Gabriel.

There's actually a lot of problems looking back at that episode because of how things went, along with plot holes and things never touched on. It may have been that they firmly planned on Dean having been in hell for this six months originally but it seems rather strange now that Gabriel would risk his livelihood killing/resurrecting Dean on earth, tossing him into hell, and then dragging him out before heaven's big plan of seal breaking came about. Even Dean pointed out he was scared of his family and didn't want a confrontation. Doing all of that would have made them look. I mean Michael was on the whole 'everything is Daddy's plan and destiny' kick but Raphael sure wasn't and wanted those seals broken yesterday. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

If it was that it never happened Sam wouldn't remember it happening. Dean doesn't remember because he was dead and resurrectedso for him it's a  new day. Basically IMO the trickster just put everyone back to the beginning but I don't think it erases what happened.

If you put everybody back to the beginning, doesn't that by definition mean that it never happens.  As far as we know Bobby doesn't know about it either and he wasn't in Hell to forget.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Mystery Spot was supposed to be the season finale of the old season three plan before the writer's strike as the season's climax. 

Mystery Spot was episode 11. The finale was 16. Did they have well over a months notice for the writers strike? I had been told they didn't have  time to develop the wanted arc of Sam going dark to save Dean so they ended up writing an episode sending Dean to hell. I'm glad it turned out how it did. Mystery Spot would have been a horrible Season finale IMO.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If you put everybody back to the beginning, doesn't that by definition mean that it never happens.  As far as we know Bobby doesn't know about it either and he wasn't in Hell to forget.

 

I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.

That's how it always seemed to me. Maybe I'll have to rewatch.

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Mystery Spot was episode 11. The finale was 16. Did they have well over a months notice for the writers strike? I had been told they didn't have  time to develop the wanted arc of Sam going dark to save Dean so they ended up writing an episode sending Dean to hell. I'm glad it turned out how it did. Mystery Spot would have been a horrible Season finale IMO.

I think they had many months to make a plan for the looming writer's strike. Those negotiations don't happen that quickly.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.

That's how it always seemed to me. Maybe I'll have to rewatch.

I think they had many months to make a plan for the looming writer's strike. Those negotiations don't happen that quickly.

 

[Airmid]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

Mystery Spot was episode 11. The finale was 16. Did they have well over a months notice for the writers strike? I had been told they didn't have  time to develop the wanted arc of Sam going dark to save Dean so they ended up writing an episode sending Dean to hell. I'm glad it turned out how it did. Mystery Spot would have been a horrible Season finale IMO.

Mystery Spot was slated as the last and swapped with Jus in Bello when the strike started. I do know that, it came out during the following months about how the plan was to work and them moving story arcs to season four. At that point there was absolutely no insurance that they would have any more episodes. I remember that year, a lot of shows were hit and some suffered and some like SPN were actually better for it. Tough year all around though but it did get SPN fans one of their most shocking moments - Dean wasn't saved.

I did go and look at the page for the season but it's not really telling me anything more. Twelve episodes before the strike, four after, they sorted order again and decided on Dean going to hell. I am honestly unsure of how they planned Sam's arc in that one or what it would have taken to save Dean or if the whole demon blood crap would have been involved. Season three had some strange myth parts to it - like Dean meeting the demons who seemed to have belief systems and some type of feelings in Sin City and Dean being wigged out by Sam's ruthlessness. And Sam was ruthless but it centered more on his efforts to save Dean later on and how far it would go. That whole demon mythology that was introduced in by Cassey in Sin City is never touched on again. 

Not to mention the whole demonic war that we barely saw and was barely covered and never to be mentioned again.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.

That's how it always seemed to me. Maybe I'll have to rewatch.

That actually makes a lot of sense to me.

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.

That's how it always seemed to me. Maybe I'll have to rewatch.

I think they had many months to make a plan for the looming writer's strike. Those negotiations don't happen that quickly.

 

I'm glad that particular writers strike happened then. Dean suspended over the abyss was an iconic SPN moment. IMO, the most dramatic of the entire series.  It also changed the storyline dramatically.

[catrox14]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

I'm glad that particular writers strike happened then. Dean suspended over the abyss was an iconic SPN moment. IMO, the most dramatic of the entire series.  It also changed the storyline dramatically.

Castiel wouldn't be an angel either.  I just can't imagine this show without Castiel. Like I enjoyed the first 3 seasons but bringing Misha in really IMO changed everything for the better. But that's just my opinion.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Mystery Spot was slated as the last and swapped with Jus in Bello when the strike started. I do know that, it came out during the following months about how the plan was to work and them moving story arcs to season four. At that point there was absolutely no insurance that they would have any more episodes. I remember that year, a lot of shows were hit and some suffered and some like SPN were actually better for it. Tough year all around though but it did get SPN fans one of their most shocking moments - Dean wasn't saved.

OK. Thanks for the info. I wasn't part of SPN so didn't know all that background. I bet it was a tough summer for fans!

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I did go and look at the page for the season but it's not really telling me anything more. Twelve episodes before the strike, four after, they sorted order again and decided on Dean going to hell. I am honestly unsure of how they planned Sam's arc in that one or what it would have taken to save Dean or if the whole demon blood crap would have been involved. Season three had some strange myth parts to it - like Dean meeting the demons who seemed to have belief systems and some type of feelings in Sin City and Dean being wigged out by Sam's ruthlessness. And Sam was ruthless but it centered more on his efforts to save Dean later on and how far it would go. That whole demon mythology that was introduced in by Cassey in Sin City is never touched on again. 

Not to mention the whole demonic war that we barely saw and was barely covered and never to be mentioned again.

That actually makes a lot of sense to me.

Makes sense to me too.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Castiel wouldn't be an angel either.  I just can't imagine this show without Castiel. Like I enjoyed the first 3 seasons but bringing Misha in really IMO changed everything for the better. But that's just my opinion.

I can't imagine those early seasons without Castiel either. I have to admit though that since probably season 5, I have felt like the writing for him has continued to go downhill. Pretty fast the last two seasons IMO. Where is my warrior angel?

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I've always wondered, was Sam evil when he was born making him more susceptible to the effects of the demon blood?  Did Azazel and Lucifer really want Sam because he was not necessarily born good? I dunno. I don't think that was the case but it seems like something the show would want to come back around to in the end because either way, whether Sam was born evil , born good and tainted by demon blood or he was untainted by the demon blood until he chose to use it with Ruby, he still overcame all of that to become the Savior of the World even if he was the savior to fix what he broke.  I can see them going with Round 2.0 of Sam really saving the world but he didn't break it first...meaning maybe he saves the AU. 

As far as I remember from the show, Sam didn't show any tendencies one way or the other until after he was an adult and at Stanford, when he started having dreams/visions of Jessica burning. Isn't that right? Same with Ava - seemed to have a pretty normal life up until the visions started. I can't remember how young Andy or Max were when their powers manifested, or the kid whose death opened "Hunted"  but Azazel's kids seemed to be at least late teens before showing signs, so that suggests to me that nurture had more to do with it. For example, Max did bad things because he was abused, but Sam was always part of 'the good fight', protecting/saving people and then getting out to his 'normal' life later on.

I kind of look at Sam as Boy King, and Sam, Lucifer's one true vessel as two different things - because according to the 1x21, the last man/woman standing would've sufficed for Azazel in his mission to open the Devil's Gate.

I know there is the legend of the five-season arc having been thought out ahead of time, but if it was always about Sam/Dean being vessels, then what was the point of 1x21/1x22? Was Sam always meant to die so Dean would sell his soul and become the Righteous Man, breaking the first seal?

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.

No, Bobby was definitely not involved in the Trickster hunt.  However, he still existed.  There's no way dean would have been dead for 3 months without him knowing about it.

[Airmid]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

OK. Thanks for the info. I wasn't part of SPN so didn't know all that background. I bet it was a tough summer for fans!

It was. I have to say that cliffhanger was probably one the show's best in terms of just how everything was left. Sam's lost Dean but Lilith can't kill him with her demon blast so flees. Sam's left with the disfigured body of Dean and the shooting of the whole hell hound sequence was well done, complete with JA showing the pain levels Dean felt.

It's because of this that I have problems with Season 4's first. Not because Dean was saved but because of Sam's actions in that. Sam off doing bad things for revenge/brother saving was fine and acceptable. Sam sneaking off with Ruby was not, at least not right then when he got one thing he wanted back. I liked that they were going for a feeling of everything off, that some fresh hell was about to start for everyone, just not fully how they showed it. 

12 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I'm glad that particular writers strike happened then. Dean suspended over the abyss was an iconic SPN moment. IMO, the most dramatic of the entire series.  It also changed the storyline dramatically.

I was nosing around for an interview that I know exists where JA actually states he asked if he was being written off the show and did see something interesting for that whole sequence. Apparently, JA stated it was the most painful one he had shot up to that point given the harness and what they had to do. Seeing what they were filming, at least it fits and probably adds even more to it.

 

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Castiel wouldn't be an angel either.  I just can't imagine this show without Castiel. Like I enjoyed the first 3 seasons but bringing Misha in really IMO changed everything for the better. But that's just my opinion.

At least they didn't write Cas out like they had originally planned to. We almost lost him before he even started, even if they have problems bringing the story for him now. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

No, Bobby was definitely not involved in the Trickster hunt.  However, he still existed.  There's no way dean would have been dead for 3 months without him knowing about it.

Not necessarily.

Back then Bobby was not yet declared "surrogate father of the century".  He was still the family friend that helped that boys when they needed help. They didn't check in with him all the time.

Dean was killed in a random shooting in Florida, thousands of miles away from South Dakota. If Sam didn't tell Bobby, 3 months isn't really that long of a time to be radio silent.  So for me, Bobby not ever knowing about that seems perfectly reasonable. And since Sam was on RoboSam, I will save Dean from Hell mode, him not telling Bobby seems pretty right in line. 

8 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I was nosing around for an interview that I know exists where JA actually states he asked if he was being written off the show and did see something interesting for that whole sequence. Apparently, JA stated it was the most painful one he had shot up to that point given the harness and what they had to do. Seeing what they were filming, at least it fits and probably adds even more to it.

I posted those pics I think in the episode thread. 

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It was. I have to say that cliffhanger was probably one the show's best in terms of just how everything was left. Sam's lost Dean but Lilith can't kill him with her demon blast so flees. Sam's left with the disfigured body of Dean and the shooting of the whole hell hound sequence was well done, complete with JA showing the pain levels Dean felt.

It's because of this that I have problems with Season 4's first. Not because Dean was saved but because of Sam's actions in that. Sam off doing bad things for revenge/brother saving was fine and acceptable. Sam sneaking off with Ruby was not, at least not right then when he got one thing he wanted back.

I really didn't like what they did with Sam. I know writers have this big thing about character's being flawed and then overcoming all to save the day but they went way way overboard in my opinion. It didn't make any sense either.

5 minutes ago, Airmid said:

 

I was nosing around for an interview that I know exists where JA actually states he asked if he was being written off the show and did see something interesting for that whole sequence. Apparently, JA stated it was the most painful one he had shot up to that point given the harness and what they had to do. Seeing what they were filming, at least it fits and probably adds even more to it.

If you find it, post the link please! I would find that interesting.

 

5 minutes ago, Airmid said:

At least they didn't write Cas out like they had originally planned to. We almost lost him before he even started, even if they have problems bringing the story for him now. 

Good thing he isn't a recent addition to the show. They kill off the good characters and keep the bad forever. 

[Airmid]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, Bobby was definitely not involved in the Trickster hunt.  However, he still existed.  There's no way dean would have been dead for 3 months without him knowing about it.

Unless of course Sam was in a created reality, something well within Gabriel's powers, and the trickster was Bobby that entire time seeing what Sam would do. 

Sam may not have known it, which would have clued him into the trickster being too powerful and it would have protected Gabriel from being found out by his brothers. Doing repeated deaths/resurrections and then a clutch save from hell on the object of heaven's desires would have been far, far more risky than just sticking them in an altered reality for a little bit. 

At least that's my head canon after they made Gabriel into the trickster we kept seeing. Even originally, when it was Sam to save Dean from his deal, I am unsure if they ever meant for Dean to be dead or in hell or if it was all an illusion. Perhaps Dean's damage from hell was meant to push Sam over the edge originally. I dunno, I've never got a real feel for what they had plotted out before things went to the wayside. 

Just now, catrox14 said:

Dean was killed in a random shooting in Florida, thousands of miles away from South Dakota. If Sam didn't tell Bobby, 3 months isn't really that long of a time to be radio silent.  So for me, Bobby not ever knowing about that seems perfectly reasonable. And since Sam was on RoboSam, I will save Dean from Hell mode, him not telling Bobby seems pretty right in line. 

I always got the feeling Bobby knew during the vast majority of time Sam was roving the countryside. But seeing that Bobby had no qualms about Sam wandering off after Dean was actually dragged to hell, it's not particularly out of character for him to just call sporadically to see if Sam's still breathing and not much else. 

And like you said, this was before they made Bobby more of a father figure than an old family friend who would help out.

[Wayward Son]

29 minutes ago, Airmid said:

 At least they didn't write Cas out like they had originally planned to. We almost lost him before he even started, even if they have problems bringing the story for him now. 

If I recall correctly Misha / Castiel was originally slated to appear for six episodes. 

• Lazarus Rising

• Are You There God Its Me Dean Winchester 

• In the Beginning 

• Its the Great Pumpkin Sam Winchester

• I Know What You Did Last Summer

• Heaven and Hell

 

The original plan was for him to die during his confrontation with Alastair. Anna had been introduced so she could replace Castiel as the Winchester's primary angelic ally. However, due to the popularity of Cas / Misha he got a reprieve and the rest as they say is history. 

 

The interesting thing about this is that it might explain how the shipping of Destiel came to be. Anna was intended as a love interest of Dean's (which they had begun during the episodes she appeared), but suddenly Cas was being thrust into the role originally intended for her during the rest of the season. Perhaps it's a case of  some of the romantic tropes remained within the writing of that role,presumably despite the writers intentions, some viewers picked up on these and boom the Destiel branch of fandom began. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I always got the feeling Bobby knew during the vast majority of time Sam was roving the countryside. But seeing that Bobby had no qualms about Sam wandering off after Dean was actually dragged to hell, it's not particularly out of character for him to just call sporadically to see if Sam's still breathing and not much else. 

And like you said, this was before they made Bobby more of a father figure than an old family friend who would help out.

I don't see much reason for Sam to tell Bobby that Dean had died especially when Sam's entire goal was finding the Trickster to compel him to bring Dean back from the dead. That would be something Bobby would be dead set against given how he reacted to Dean selling his soul to bring back Sam. So Sam not telling Bobby and Bobby never finding out, all works for me in the context of Bobby's role in the boys life in s3.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not necessarily.

Back then Bobby was not yet declared "surrogate father of the century".  He was still the family friend that helped that boys when they needed help. They didn't check in with him all the time.

Dean was killed in a random shooting in Florida, thousands of miles away from South Dakota. If Sam didn't tell Bobby, 3 months isn't really that long of a time to be radio silent.  So for me, Bobby not ever knowing about that seems perfectly reasonable. And since Sam was on RoboSam, I will save Dean from Hell mode, him not telling Bobby seems pretty right in line. 

 

I get where you're coming from with Bobby, believe me (the boo-hoo princess shite was unforgivable for me), but I can't quite accept that he wouldn't have inquired about Dean after 3 months radio silence. Not knowing that Dean was in his last year and what was waiting for him should he die. I'm thinking about the Bobby who was so stricken when he realized Dean had made a deal - his grief in that scene was real, IMO. And this episode followed Dream A Little Dream, in which the boys saved his life. I think this was the beginning of them being the family that don't end in blood - and I don't think Bobby would've let three months slide by at that point.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I get where you're coming from with Bobby, believe me (the boo-hoo princess shite was unforgivable for me), but I can't quite accept that he wouldn't have inquired about Dean after 3 months radio silence. Not knowing that Dean was in his last year and what was waiting for him should he die. I'm thinking about the Bobby who was so stricken when he realized Dean had made a deal - his grief in that scene was real, IMO. And this episode followed Dream A Little Dream, in which the boys saved his life. I think this was the beginning of them being the family that don't end in blood - and I don't think Bobby would've let three months slide by at that point.

I made another comment that explains why I see it that way in between you posting your reply. :)

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If I recall correctly Misha / Castiel was originally slated to appear for six episodes. 

• Lazarus Rising

• Are You There God Its Me Dean Winchester 

• In the Beginning 

• Its the Great Pumpkin Sam Winchester

• I Know What You Did Last Summer

• Heaven and Hell

 

The original plan was for him to die during his confrontation with Alastair. Anna had been introduced so she could replace Castiel as the Winchester's primary angelic ally. However, due to the popularity of Cas / Misha he got a reprieve and the rest as they say is history. 

 

The interesting thing about this is that it might explain how the shipping of Destiel came to be. Anna was intended as a love interest of Dean's (which they had begun during the episodes she appeared), but suddenly Cas was being thrust into the role originally intended for her during the rest of the season. Perhaps it's a case of  some of the romantic tropes remained within the writing of that role,presumably despite the writers intentions, some viewers picked up on these and boom the Destiel branch of fandom began. 

I can see that. Makes sense to me

[Airmid]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If I recall correctly Misha / Castiel was originally slated to appear for six episodes. 

For some reason my brain keeps changing three to six. I did the same thing with Sam being in the time loop writing three months when some part of me knew it was six.

Maybe I like three better? :)

But yeah, I believe you are correct. Cas was to be written out early on and due to fan reaction that didn't happen.

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The interesting thing about this is that it might explain how the shipping of Destiel came to be. Anna was intended as a love interest of Dean's (which they had begun during the episodes she appeared), but suddenly Cas was being thrust into the role originally intended for her during the rest of the season. Perhaps it's a case of  some of the romantic tropes remained within the writing of that role,presumably despite the writers intentions, some viewers picked up on these and boom the Destiel branch of fandom began. 

I think part of it also is the insane chemistry those two manage to create. The same thing happened with the pilot episode, generating the very first Wincest in like the first hour after it aired. So we already have a fandom that's rich in M/M with a touch of taboo and here comes this intimidating creature that's scary and good looking. Throw in the subtle actor cues and the writing that shows Cas beginning to understand and value Dean instead of just threatening him about tossing Dean back in hell and bang, there's a lot more support for this kind of pairing. 

I think some of it falls on the writers, some of it on the actors, some of it on the fans themselves given the climate of things like fanfiction at the time and just ingrained tropes viewers/writers/actors themselves may not consciously acknowledge or be aware of. 

It was a surprise when it shouldn't have been looking back at the whole thing. Dean and Ana never got to that level of chemistry or respect right out of the gate or later on. Shame they wrote her as a crazed homicidal angel later on though. Did her character a disservice. 

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see much reason for Sam to tell Bobby that Dean had died especially when Sam's entire goal was finding the Trickster to compel him to bring Dean back from the dead. That would be something Bobby would be dead set against given how he reacted to Dean selling his soul to bring back Sam. So Sam not telling Bobby and Bobby never finding out, all works for me in the context of Bobby's role in the boys life in s3.

Except for the fact that Bobby knew he was looking for the Trickster and didn't ask where his brother was when Sam showed up alone (that I recall). He doesn't ask about Dean in the phone message shown, just tells Sam to call. It gives the impression that he knows at least Dean's not with him and very well may have gotten himself killed.

Bobby wouldn't be dead set against it because Sam's not selling anything. He's wanting to find a monster who murder his brother a 100 times then let him die all over again in his arms. Bobby wouldn't be adverse to revenge as long as Sam wasn't out making deals, murdering innocents or doing other dark things.  And if there was a possibility for a cleaner way to get Dean back after all of this - well more power to him, would be Bobby's outlook.

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, Airmid said:

 

I think part of it also is the insane chemistry those two manage to create. The same thing happened with the pilot episode, generating the very first Wincest in like the first hour after it aired. So we already have a fandom that's rich in M/M with a touch of taboo and here comes this intimidating creature that's scary and good looking. Throw in the subtle actor cues and the writing that shows Cas beginning to understand and value Dean instead of just threatening him about tossing Dean back in hell and bang, there's a lot more support for this kind of pairing. 

I think some of it falls on the writers, some of it on the actors, some of it on the fans themselves given the climate of things like fanfiction at the time and just ingrained tropes viewers/writers/actors themselves may not consciously acknowledge or be aware of. I

Jensen has great chemistry with just about everybody. I do think some of the no chemistry with Anna was 1) the actress wasn't too convincing and 2) I understand that a lot of fans don't want romantic interest for either of the boys. Actually, come to think of it, I'm in that camp but probably not for the same reason as many. 

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Except for the fact that Bobby knew he was looking for the Trickster and didn't ask where his brother was when Sam showed up alone (that I recall). He doesn't ask about Dean in the phone message shown, just tells Sam to call. It gives the impression that he knows at least Dean's not with him and very well may have gotten himself killed.

Bobby wouldn't be dead set against it because Sam's not selling anything. He's wanting to find a monster who murder his brother a 100 times then let him die all over again in his arms. Bobby wouldn't be adverse to revenge as long as Sam wasn't out making deals, murdering innocents or doing other dark things.  And if there was a possibility for a cleaner way to get Dean back after all of this - well more power to him, would be Bobby's outlook.

That wasn't Bobby. That was the Trickster that showed up. That's why he didn't ask where Dean was.

I don't agree that Bobby would have been on board this plan. Why would Bobby have gone against Dean when he knew that Sam was going to drop dead if they tried to save Dean from Hell?  Sam was out of his mind with grief and PTSD after reliving Dean's death 100 days or more in a row so  I don't think Sam would have told Bobby that he watched Dean die 100 times in a row.  Would Sam have lied to Bobby about his true motives for hunting down the Trickster? I think it's likely for a PTSDE ridden, obsessive,  vengeance, mission oriented Sam to not tell Bobby anything, to reject his help and go it alone.

Also, IMO, Bobby was not this teddy bear that those messages implied. IMO, Bobby wouldn't have really been that nice on his calls to Sam if 3 months had gone by and he was really worried but didn't know that Dean was dead. IMO, he would have been, all "Boy, ti's been 3 goddamn months. Where the hell are you??" So for me, the kindness in Bobby's messages was always suspect.

If Bobby knew Dean was dead, IMO, those messages would have been more like 'Sam, dammit, son. You're going down a wrong path" But I really don't think he would have ever been in a for a pound of flesh on something as powerful as the Trickster especially since he thought he had killed him already. IMO if he thought the Trickster was so powerful to make Sam live Dean's death 100 days in a row, I think Bobby would have told Sam to accept that Dean had died and to stand down from this terrible plan.

[Airmid]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Bobby knew Dean was dead, IMO, those messages would have been more like 'Sam, dammit, son. You're going down a wrong path"

This same Bobby who had zero clue as to where Sam was when Dean came back?

The same Bobby who was rather nasty at times to Dean the entire season 4 arc culminating in the whole 'suck it up princess'?

The Bobby who thought it was okay to go send a souped up Sam to zap Lilith when Dean was trying to get his brother human?

The same Bobby who was without options and okayed a plan to bleed a few humans for Sam to get juiced back up?

The same Bobby who thought it was an option to let Sam jump into the pit?

That Bobby would have reservations with hunting a trickster and trying to force it to help free a worthy human from hell or murder it if it wouldn't/couldn't?

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't agree that Bobby would have been on board this plan. Why would Bobby have gone against Dean when he knew that Sam was going to drop dead if they tried to save Dean from Hell? 

Sam couldn't break the deal. However, Sam had just watched something with the power of life and death, something very powerful that may be able to get the contract so that Dean's deal is null. Something powerful enough to scoop Dean out of hell and mitigate the consequences. 

I don't think Bobby would let someone rot in hell if there was an option. I do think he'd approach it with a plan and try to bring Sam back in to contain him a bit. Not exhausting all other options wouldn't be on his agenda. Not sacrificing Sam would be. Which brings us to:

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, IMO, Bobby was not this teddy bear that those messages implied. IMO, Bobby wouldn't have really been that nice on his calls to Sam if 3 months had gone by and he was really worried but didn't know that Dean was dead. IMO, he would have been, all "Boy, ti's been 3 goddamn months. Where the hell are you??" So for me, the kindness in Bobby's messages was always suspect.

When you're trying to talk someone off the edge sometimes yelling at them isn't the way. Bobby probably had spent God knows how many weeks yelling into Sam's voicemail and not getting anywhere. So if this is the real Bobby (not saying it is, just giving an opinion on the matter) he would switch tacts. Sam not swinging in the wind on a suicidal mission in grief and rage would be first priority here. When yelling and demanding don't work you go with plan B which is trying a nicer approach to appeal to something in the person you're trying to get to back down. 

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Would Sam have lied to Bobby about his true motives for hunting down the Trickster? I think it's likely for a PTSDE ridden, obsessive,  vengeance, mission oriented Sam to not tell Bobby anything, to reject his help and go it alone.

I think Sam, in this state, would lie to get Bobby's help in his true goal. He'd reject Bobby until Bobby had something for him to work with because Sam needed that and in his mind, just his brother back. Sam doesn't care about collateral damage here at this point but Bobby does. So Bobby would help him hoping to met with him to get him to back off a little and find a better way because he still cares about both of them. It doesn't particularly matter if Sam told Bobby anything about what happened, the very fact that Sam was laser focused on one being as the end all be all answer would be enough information for him. 

Was it actually Bobby, an illusion or the trickster all that time? We have no idea and they've never said. Just like they've never said if it was Ruby or the angels that changed that phone message that got Sam back on the Lilith track. In this case, in the end, it's not as important because it showed simply that Sam did not learn and still lost in the end. 

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, Airmid said:

This same Bobby who had zero clue as to where Sam was when Dean came back?

The same Bobby who was rather nasty at times to Dean the entire season 4 arc culminating in the whole 'suck it up princess'?

The Bobby who thought it was okay to go send a souped up Sam to zap Lilith when Dean was trying to get his brother human?

The same Bobby who was without options and okayed a plan to bleed a few humans for Sam to get juiced back up?

The same Bobby who thought it was an option to let Sam jump into the pit?

That Bobby would have reservations with hunting a trickster and trying to force it to help free a worthy human from hell or murder it if it wouldn't/couldn't?

 

46 minutes ago, Airmid said:

When you're trying to talk someone off the edge sometimes yelling at them isn't the way. Bobby probably had spent God knows how many weeks yelling into Sam's voicemail and not getting anywhere. So if this is the real Bobby (not saying it is, just giving an opinion on the matter) he would switch tacts. Sam not swinging in the wind on a suicidal mission in grief and rage would be first priority here. When yelling and demanding don't work you go with plan B which is trying a nicer approach to appeal to something in the person you're trying to get to back down. 

Most of your examples  were post s3 Bobby who they changed significantly in s4 from the Bobby of s2 and s3.  IMO, the Bobby we knew in S3 would not have agreed with what Sam was doing. IMO that Bobby would have been much more likely to talk Sam out of his bad idea than enable him to do it. YMMV

46 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Was it actually Bobby, an illusion or the trickster all that time? We have no idea and they've never said. Just like they've never said if it was Ruby or the angels that changed that phone message that got Sam back on the Lilith track. In this case, in the end, it's not as important because it showed simply that Sam did not learn and still lost in the end. 

Sam knew it wasn't Bobby. And the Trickster himself said it wasn't Bobby himself and he'd been screwing with Sam for months.

 I don't believe that Bobby would have said he found the Trickster, lied about it and then offer up his own blood to get Dean out of Hell, knowing there is always a dark side to deals.  Even the Bobby in Lazarus Rising was against Sam burying Dean vs burning and salting his body as per the usual. 

So IMO, that was never Bobby that was always the Trickster and Bobby never knew that Dean had died. We'll have to agree to disagree I think :)

Edited May 31, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Was it actually Bobby, an illusion or the trickster all that time? We have no idea and they've never said. Just like they've never said if it was Ruby or the angels that changed that phone message that got Sam back on the Lilith track. In this case, in the end, it's not as important because it showed simply that Sam did not learn and still lost in the end. 

Did not learn what? Are you still talking about the Trickster? Sam refused to give up trying to get Dean back. I thought the show wanted us to think that was good.

[Idahoforspn]

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

This same Bobby who had zero clue as to where Sam was when Dean came back?

The same Bobby who was rather nasty at times to Dean the entire season 4 arc culminating in the whole 'suck it up princess'?

The Bobby who thought it was okay to go send a souped up Sam to zap Lilith when Dean was trying to get his brother human?

The same Bobby who was without options and okayed a plan to bleed a few humans for Sam to get juiced back up?

The same Bobby who thought it was an option to let Sam jump into the pit?

That Bobby would have reservations with hunting a trickster and trying to force it to help free a worthy human from hell or murder it if it wouldn't/couldn't?

Sam couldn't break the deal. However, Sam had just watched something with the power of life and death, something very powerful that may be able to get the contract so that Dean's deal is null. Something powerful enough to scoop Dean out of hell and mitigate the consequences. 

I don't think Bobby would let someone rot in hell if there was an option. I do think he'd approach it with a plan and try to bring Sam back in to contain him a bit. Not exhausting all other options wouldn't be on his agenda. Not sacrificing Sam would be. Which brings us to:

When you're trying to talk someone off the edge sometimes yelling at them isn't the way. Bobby probably had spent God knows how many weeks yelling into Sam's voicemail and not getting anywhere. So if this is the real Bobby (not saying it is, just giving an opinion on the matter) he would switch tacts. Sam not swinging in the wind on a suicidal mission in grief and rage would be first priority here. When yelling and demanding don't work you go with plan B which is trying a nicer approach to appeal to something in the person you're trying to get to back down. 

I think Sam, in this state, would lie to get Bobby's help in his true goal. He'd reject Bobby until Bobby had something for him to work with because Sam needed that and in his mind, just his brother back. Sam doesn't care about collateral damage here at this point but Bobby does. So Bobby would help him hoping to met with him to get him to back off a little and find a better way because he still cares about both of them. It doesn't particularly matter if Sam told Bobby anything about what happened, the very fact that Sam was laser focused on one being as the end all be all answer would be enough information for him. 

Was it actually Bobby, an illusion or the trickster all that time? We have no idea and they've never said. Just like they've never said if it was Ruby or the angels that changed that phone message that got Sam back on the Lilith track. In this case, in the end, it's not as important because it showed simply that Sam did not learn and still lost in the end. 

I thought Zachariah said something that would lead us to believe he did the phone message. Something like he took care of that. I don't remember. I just remember that it made me think Zach was the message changer.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought Zachariah said something that would lead us to believe he did the phone message. Something like he took care of that. I don't remember. I just remember that it made me think Zach was the message changer.

This is what Zach said:

"Sam... has a part to play. A very important part. He may need a little nudging in the right direction, but I'll make sure he plays it."

But, at the same time, Ruby looked like she knew what Sam was hearing. I think it was left ambiguous on purpose. My belief is that Zachariah did the message changing, but a case can certainly be made for Ruby.

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

This is what Zach said:

"Sam... has a part to play. A very important part. He may need a little nudging in the right direction, but I'll make sure he plays it."

But, at the same time, Ruby looked like she knew what Sam was hearing. I think it was left ambiguous on purpose. My belief is that Zachariah did the message changing, but a case can certainly be made for Ruby.

I just bought that Zach did it but I can buy that it could have been Ruby. Thanks.

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Most of your examples  were post s3 Bobby who they changed significantly in s4 from the Bobby of s2 and s3.  IMO, the Bobby we knew in S3 would not have agreed with what Sam was doing. IMO that Bobby would have been much more likely to talk Sam out of his bad idea than enable him to do it. YMMV

I think he would have been open to exploring options but trying to keep Sam from doing something stupid. If there was an avenue to explore, he would but I don't know if he would tell Sam what he was doing or put Sam's soul in danger. In fact, he would keep some things secret just so Sam wouldn't rashly jeopardize himself like that both because he cared for Sam and that Dean would not want his sacrifice to play out like that.

That was my point, sorry I wasn't clear as that seems to be a thing with me today. :)

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam knew it wasn't Bobby. And the Trickster himself said it wasn't Bobby himself and he'd been screwing with Sam for months.

 I don't believe that Bobby would have said he found the Trickster, lied about it and then offer up his own blood to get Dean out of Hell, knowing there is always a dark side to deals.  Even the Bobby in Lazarus Rising was against Sam burying Dean vs burning and salting his body as per the usual. 

So IMO, that was never Bobby that was always the Trickster and Bobby never knew that Dean had died. We'll have to agree to disagree I think :)

I actually do agree with you that the trickster was Bobby and that our Bobby wasn't there. I was giving examples of why I didn't think that was enough proof if one wanted to argue the other way on that one. At least until the end when Sam suspects that he's been set up by the phone call and takes the chance and skewers Bobby. And of course Gabriel lets Bobby's body sit there for a few seconds just to mind screw Sam some more.

The whole thing for Sam was a psychological torture from beginning to end, and while I think it wasn't taking place in reality and Sam told exactly no one what he had done or been through, I can see why others had different takes on it.

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

Did not learn what? Are you still talking about the Trickster? Sam refused to give up trying to get Dean back. I thought the show wanted us to think that was good.

It was Sam's inability to let his brother go that led him down the garden path with Ruby. Sam was unable to mourn his brother and move on, he was unable to give up his revenge plot against Lilith and finally, he was unable to give up the seduction of power.

I think this episode is trickier (he he) when compared to later seasons like four due to it being written with the old storyline still in place - that Sam was supposed to save Dean from his deal. Perhaps originally they wanted it to seem like a good thing that Sam was so determined and single minded about his brother but later on, due to how they took the arcs, it became something of a bad thing. Sam didn't learn the lesson until too late and it cost him a lot. 

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought Zachariah said something that would lead us to believe he did the phone message. Something like he took care of that. I don't remember. I just remember that it made me think Zach was the message changer.

As Katy M said, there's never been a true answer and it's been kept vague. While the angels had every reason to want Sam to keep going and we know the can go invisible/intangible, at the same time Ruby has been in direct contact with the cell phone and would want the same thing. 

There's a lot of fan speculation and theories out there about why it's more likely one or the other. I always went with Ruby. While the angels stuck Dean in a box, they were so certain that things would keep chugging by just that one action I can see in their hubris they wouldn't have tried. Though it could be argued that once they figured out Dean made a call, they got nervous, cut off his cell and fixed that little loose end.

So again, both ways and it's up to the viewer to decide that one. ;)

[lmdreamer]

One thing that bugs me about the bunker:  why don't the boys use it as a resource to help people more?  there have been many cases where the victim or the girl of the week needed a place to crash or obviously needed to be observed for a while and they just say either "good luck" or "be good".  A couple glaring examples was the girl from "about a boy"  or Madga from "American Nightmare".  And lets not even talk about Kevin who sam and dean don't even think about bringing him to the bunker until after he gets kidnapped in season 8 and if they would have brought him sooner much of season 9 and on could have been prevented. (Metatron) Or am I way off base and there are cases of them using the bunker that way? Besides charlie and Eileen?

Edited June 2, 2017 by lmdreamer

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

One thing that bugs me about the bunker:  why don't the boys use it as a resource to help people more?  there have been many cases where the victim or the girl of the week needed a place to crash or obviously needed to be observed for a while and they just say either "good luck" or "be good".  A couple glaring examples was the girl from "about a boy"  or Madga from "American Nightmare".  And lets not even talk about Kevin who sam and dean don't even think about bringing him to the bunker until after he gets kidnapped in season 8 and if they would have brought him sooner much of season 9 and on could have been prevented. (Metatron) Or am I way off base and there are cases of them using the bunker that way? Besides charlie and Eileen?

In S8 they took the Greek god, his one night stand and their love child to the bunker--which totally didn't even make sense in the scope of the episode--but other than that, I don't recall them allowing a random person of the week to seek refuge there. Back in S8 I forgave it a bit because it was new and it was supposed to be secret and all that, but now that everyone waltzes in and out of the place, it seems really silly to me, But, that's one of my many criticisms of the bunker. I just don't feel like they've used it very well. They use it to spout exposition, but it could be a great source of story too.

[Pondlass1]

8 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

the bunker:  why don't the boys use it as a resource to help people more

I'm guessing the main reason is that the actor playing the role is not in every episode so how to explain their absence for bunker scenes.  But this could easily be managed with writing. Same thing as 'have you heard from mom/Cas/whoever?'  Just have Sam or Dean remark as if they've just left the room of the character or he/she's still sleeping or whatever.  The bunker (despite it's revolving front door) is presented as a safe haven and apparently has many bedrooms (although I personally couldn't sleep in a windowless room)

The boys often send vulnerable people off into the world - we see them leaving on a bus, taxi or whatever.  Sometimes they dump them at hospitals.