OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, jhlipton said:

NABA (Not As Bad As) this show is hardly a ringing endorsement.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA In so, so many, many different ways this is true. 

Magicians is a pretty good show for what it is and quite diverse (as long as one thinks beyond just black when one refers to diversity). At least their characters of non-white, non-straight persuasion have actual roles in the show. It definitely does better than Once. I mean, other than pretty white people, who on this show has a major storyline? I suppose we can now say there is Jacinda, whose casting I feel is 100% to reach some ethnic quota because it couldn't possibly be because she was the best choice, or had the most chemistry with Henry. But even Jacinda seems to have an all white family other than Lucy. lol I mean, her step mom, two step sisters, even her step father, all white. 

[tennisgurl]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

NABA (Not As Bad As) this show is hardly a ringing endorsement.  The Magicians stands out on SyFy because the network really is better than that.

Very true :) This show pretty much sucks on a diversity level, even when while they're patting themselves on the pack for casting a Hispanic woman as Cinderella. They so clearly are filling quotas, and they hardly even try to hide it. The Magicians is pretty decent on diversity, and mostly their characters have more going on than their race or sexual identity, which I appreciate. It doesn't feel that they have just quotas to fill to get that sweet Tumbler cred.

I was watching The Librarians, and they actually had an an episode last night called "The Disenchanted Forest", and it kept making me laugh really hard. It was a really fun episode, if your interested in fun magical adventures with references to multiple mythologies, legends and cultures, without a ton of pointless drama, its a really good time.  

Edited January 4, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Rumsy4]

The Good Place return episode was forking good! These writers know how to keep things fresh. Their "twists" don't come out of nowhere. It's a pleasure to watch.

Spoiler

If it was OUAT, I would've bet on it that Michael had pulled a Rumpel on them and betrayed them all.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Rumsy4

[jhlipton]

23 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

as long as one thinks beyond just black when one refers to diversity

That seems to be par for the course.  Middle Eastern, Hispanic and people from the Indian sub-continent get cast before black people (especially black women) for the sake of diversity.

[Camera One]

"Once" is definitely quite low on the diversity scale.  It's more marked when examining TV series regulars.  In a study of the 2015-2016 season, ~70% of series regulars are white, 14% black, 6% Latino, 4% Asian and 3% mixed race.  Usually, shows "fill up" on the minorities as guest or minor recurring characters.

[Mitch]

They should have read up on Stephen King's Dark Tower series. Most of it takes place in a realm that has traces of magic and also technology..the latest book takes place mostly in "our world" ..New York and Maine actually (as King lives there) and has characters from King's other books  (i.e the priest from Salem's Lot) who are interested to find they are characters in books in another realm.  King himself is a character much like the Author on Once...but he is simply a conduit to telling the stories of another world, but the characters from the world of his books are convinced that they need him to keep writing so they can find the "Dark Tower." Because of these characters coming to our world the fabric of reality starts to tear or get convoluted and creatures roam King's neighborhood, etc.

I don't think the writers ever said  definitively what the hell the Author is or what he does. Originally it was just to observe and report but then whathisface went rogue and started making the characters do stuff but what he made them do or what Snow and Regina would do on their own have never been explained. And then DimmieHenry is the author who now can make stuff up and if he writes it with the dumb pen (which I thought was destroyed but was in Hades...because....?????) it becomes real...because... So Dumb Henry wants to be a "hero" (go feed the poor you doufus..) and jump into other books..but...how can he do that as if the book was written all the events transpired already...right???Or he could just pick up that goofy pen and write that he can fly and lift cars up and be a superhero..right???

Anywho..King does it better.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

I don't think the writers ever said  definitively what the hell the Author is or what he does.

Have they ever said anything definitive about any of this? That they didn't take back a season or two later? Ugh! How do they get paid for this?

 

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

So Dumb Henry wants to be a "hero" (go feed the poor you doufus..) and jump into other books..but...how can he do that as if the book was written all the events transpired already...right???Or he could just pick up that goofy pen and write that he can fly and lift cars up and be a superhero..right???

Yeah, this, if he wants to be a hero, just write himself as a hero. DUH. I really don't get how the whole Author thing works. Because, if the author of Murderella's book has already written it, then hasn't Henry always been in it? Writery  Wobbly, Authory  wuthory stuff I guess.

[Camera One]

I have a new theory about Mother Gothel's backstory.  She calls herself Mother, so that gives a huge hint.  Of course, she is actually Marmee from "Little Women" and the Coven of 8 is an attempt to bring back her family.  She is clearly trying to pass off her own misfortunes onto Trepunzel.  First of all, she got Trepunzel separated from her husband, just like she was separated from her own husband during the Uncivil War in her Realm of Story.  She transferred a daughter falling through ice to Trepunzel.  And she wants to claim Anastasia to replace Beth.  In fact, the word Guardian appears twice in "Little Women", once in Jo's poem, which might be Gothel's incantation for bringing her family back.

[KingOfHearts]

After finishing the first season of Riverdale, I realized that going "soap opera" isn't inherently a bad thing. Riverdale does the ridiculous twists and reveals very well, with just a hint of self-awareness. OUAT, on the other hand, just sucks at it. Its developments aren't very juicy, not setup well, and don't affect your perception of the characters in such a way that benefits the plot. "Zelena was Marian the whole time and is having Robin's baby!"... so? That was merely a speed bump on Regina's road to wherever she was going at the time. "Hook killed Charming's dad!"... so? Charming stopped talking about it five minutes after he learned of it. If Captain Swan had been in an earlier stage and they were still learning to trust each other, the angst would have more more sense. But by that point, they were both willing to sacrifice their lives for each other. They quite literally went to hell and back in the name of love. Big!Shocking!Twists are pointless when they don't hold up against the plot or character motivations.

[Camera One]

I haven't watched "Riverdale".  Although soap opera-ish shows can be good, I often find I don't want to rewatch them because of all the angst.  "Once" has a tonal problem since it throws in a number of adult soap opera elements like sexual deception as twists, but it also pretends to be a show suitable for children as a beacon of hope and love.  It doesn't commit to either but slaps together both elements in a haphazard fashion which results in a really disjointed and uncomfortable experience.  I mean look at the rapist-fake-Rapunzel storyline meshed with Disney imagery from Tangled with the lanterns.  

[Camera One]

I have some requests for witches of the Coven:

- Baba Yaga

- Madam Mim

- The White Witch from Narnia

- The Weird Sisters from MacBeth

- Mombi from Oz

- Circe

- Morgan Le Fay

[Spartan Girl]

I don't know if anyone keeps up with Tangled the series, but Varian would definitely count in the "every villain gets a sob story to justify being an asshole" category of OUAT. Him blaming Rapunzel and the kingdom for "turning his back on him" when in reality they couldn't help him because they were dealing with a different threat to the kingdom -- I was immediately reminded of St. Woegina blaming a child for not keeping her secret.

Don't worry, it's still a far superior show.

[Camera One]

I don't watch the series, but Varian rhymes in Zarian.  One of the Writers might be a secret Once fan.

A ruler is expected to ensure the happiness of every single person in the entire kingdom, you know.  Otherwise, they're a failure and they should let a homicidal sociopathic mass murderer rule instead.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Camera One

[Spartan Girl]

Yup, pretty much. *rolls eyes*

Come to think of it Varian is similar to Greg/Owen. You know, the whole "my father was taken from me, so I'll just take it out on the whole town and all the innocent people that didn't even have anything to do with it." Oh God, maybe one of the Once writers snuck into the show!

[tennisgurl]

You know I was thinking about the recent DC movies and their attempt at a cinematic universe (Man of Steel, Suicide Squad, Justice League, etc.) and where the whole franchise has gone wrong, and one of my biggest complaints about the franchise is that they seem to be operating more on name recognition and fan pandering than on telling a good story with classic characters. They have just thrown together characters, places, and elements from classic stories, seemingly without understanding what made those stories classic in the first place, and ended up with characters who dont make much sense and a universe that is poorly explained and filled with rules that no one understands. 

Well, I've been saying that for ages, but it just hit me that those complaints sound rather... familiar, dont they? Sort of like a certain TV show that seems to think that because the audience recognizes a characters name or outfit, that makes them super awesome without having to actually work on making the character super awesome, and seriously sucks at world building, which is filled with poorly explained rules, that we are all familiar with? 

[Rumsy4]

Of the recent DC superhero movies, I've only seen Wonder Woman (which I loved). Ben Affleck may be good in his role--I don't know, but his casting as Batman completely put me off the series. And I've never been a fan of Superman the way I love Batman. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 1/13/2018 at 1:14 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I don't know if anyone keeps up with Tangled the series, but Varian would definitely count in the "every villain gets a sob story to justify being an asshole" category of OUAT. Him blaming Rapunzel and the kingdom for "turning his back on him" when in reality they couldn't help him because they were dealing with a different threat to the kingdom -- I was immediately reminded of St. Woegina blaming a child for not keeping her secret.

But the difference is that while they're sympathetic to Varian for what he's been through and Rapunzel feels bad about having failed him, they still treat him as a villain because of the things he's done. Spoiler for last night's episode:

Spoiler

When they caught him, they mentioned trying to get help for him, but he was still being arrested and locked up.

[Camera One]

I can't say I'm too versed in superhero comics, so I only know the most well-known ones.  I too love Batman.  I don't mind Superman, but I'm not too interested in the alien origin story.  "Batman vs. Superman" was very disappointing.  Talk about bleak and depressing and ultimately extremely boring.  They didn't take the opportunity to have some fun with the mash-up, especially with the supporting characters.  Alfred and Mr. Kent would be an interesting combination, or Jimmy Olsen doing photoshoots with Bruce Wayne on the side.  

Too many of the superhero movies are focused on non-stop action, so the characters don't feel too human.  I couldn't connect with the more recent Spiderman series at all.  

And then there are shows like "Gotham" which pretty much showcases the villains and the violence, and the protagonists generally have to work with half a brain.  

[Rumsy4]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

And then there are shows like "Gotham" which pretty much showcases the villains and the violence, and the protagonists generally have to work with half a brain.  

When will this trend end?? I had enough of villain-centric stories and asshole protagonists. But every writer seems to think they're giving the villains a unique twist by giving them a sob story, and turning the so-called good guys into hypocrites or morons (or both).

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

When will this trend end?? I had enough of villain-centric stories and asshole protagonists. But every writer seems to think they're giving the villains a unique twist by giving them a sob story, and turning the so-called good guys into hypocrites or morons (or both).

I'm now a season behind "Gotham" but it didn't seem to give the villains a sob story.  Instead, they show the villains brutally and graphically murdering a bunch of innocent people and consider that entertainment.  Hence I'm so behind. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Camera One

[Spartan Girl]

51 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But the difference is that while they're sympathetic to Varian for what he's been through and Rapunzel feels bad about having failed him, they still treat him as a villain because of the things he's done. Spoiler for last night's episode:

  Hide contents

When they caught him, they mentioned trying to get help for him, but he was still being arrested and locked up.

True, but Varian still has a large fan base on Twiiter and Tumblr defending and coddling him. But I guess hats to be expected in any fandom. *cough* Kylo Ren *cough*

I don't think Varian deserves sympathy at this point. Whatever the cause, he's turned into another angry petty asshole that willingly choose to horrible things and blame everyone else. 

[tennisgurl]

I actually really like Gotham (especially this season) even with its violence, messed up protagonists, and murderous rouges gallery. At least with Gotham, unlike Once, you pretty much know what your getting into right away. Its a weird, dark, often violent, highly stylized series, and it knows it. Everyone knows it. It works with the Batman mythos, even without Batman, because thats a staple of the bat universe. Its dark, Gothic, and larger than life, and thats what Gotham is. Even when I think the heroes act like morons and the story gets REALLY convoluted, its tone is pretty consistent. What I dislike about Once is the weird tonal shifts, and how they give speeches about hope and light and happy ending, while also having Regina laughter entire villages and keep a sex slave, and just brush the whole thing off. And while many of the villains have sympathetic backstories or characteristics, the show usually doesn't let them off the hook for evil behavior.  At least with a show like Gotham, it knows its being dark and twisted, and if thats not your thing, you can stay away. Once tries to market itself as a modern, somewhat family friendly fairy tale, and somehow keeps blundering into murder, rape, torture, and all kinds of horrors, and never seems to really understand what its done. Thats why I like Gotham for its darkness, and why I think Once is so messed up. Gotham at least knows what it is, and I have no clue what Once is doing. 

And, honestly, Batman villains have dominated the Batman mythology for ages now, in and outside of comics. Sometimes its done well, and sometimes its not, but its kind of just a "thing" now that I've gotten used to.

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I couldn't connect with the more recent Spiderman series at all.  

Which series do you mean? The cartoon, or the MCU movie? Because I generally think the MCU has done a good job of creating likable, engaging heroes, and what makes it stand out from earlier superhero movies (and, of course, Once) is that, in general, they seem to enjoy writing for the heroes more than the villains. 

There is actually a lot of controversy/discussion in the comic book world (both with creators, fans, and within the worlds themselves) now about the darkening of comic books and the overuse of villains and asshole heroes,, but thats a whole other can of worms :) 

Edited January 15, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

True, but Varian still has a large fan base on Twiiter and Tumblr defending and coddling him. But I guess hats to be expected in any fandom. *cough* Kylo Ren *cough*

I'm afraid that does happen in every fandom. It just would help if the writers didn't always play into it. I didn't feel like the Tangled writers were encouraging it. They were showing him as unhinged and wrong. Rapunzel is sympathetic to him because she's a nice person, not because he's some kind of woobie, and they're treating him like he's unhinged and needs medical/psychiatric help rather than like someone who's going to be a friend. At least, I hope.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

. Ben Affleck may be good in his role--I don't know, but his casting as Batman completely put me off the series

He isn't bad at all, but the character was very poorly written in BvS, and while he was better in Justice League, the damage was already pretty much done. 

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

True, but Varian still has a large fan base on Twiiter and Tumblr defending and coddling him. But I guess hats to be expected in any fandom. *cough* Kylo Ren *cough*

 

Yeah, your always going to get that with a certain segment of fans. Tumblr gonna Tumblr after all.* It all just depends on how the writers handle it. Do they turn the evil asshole into a poor misguided woobie picked on by those mean heroes, or do they keep treating them as a villain, OR commit to a real redemption arc? 

*Just ask the legion of Snape fans from Harry Potter who think he was the most perfect saddest most heroic woobie ever, picked on by that mean Harry who was so not understanding towards the asshole teacher who treated him like shit for years over being friend zoned by Harry's mom years before he was born. 

[Camera One]

I hope to watch the "Tangled" series eventually.  I borrowed the "Tangled: Before Ever After" movie from the library yesterday so I'll watch that when I have time.  I guess we are those adults who are seen perusing the children's movies shelves, LOL.  I'll have to see if I can still stomach Rapunzel now that it's been tainted with the future of Lady Tremaine.

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I actually really like Gotham (especially this season) even with its violence, messed up protagonists, and murderous rouges gallery. At least with Gotham, unlike Once, you pretty much know what your getting into right away. Its a weird, dark, often violent, highly stylized series, and it knows it. Everyone knows it. It works with the Batman mythos, even without Batman, because thats a staple of the bat universe.

I don't mind darkness, though I really dislike violence.  I mainly watch "Gotham" since I find the journey of Bruce Wayne to be quite fascinating.  But by halfway last season, I was finding the characters quite tiresome, learning the same lessons over and over again, especially Jim Gordon.  With "villains" like Penguin, it's an endless cycle of kicking them down and then regain strength, wash, rinse, repeat.  I do want to catch up, but I fell behind so much the episodes were off the network's site, and so I have to wait 'til I get my hands on the DVDs.  I feel like there's so little hope in that series since we already know the endpoint.  None of these villains are going to die, Gotham is going to be a horrible place, yada yada yada.  

Quote

Which series do you mean? The cartoon, or the MCU movie? Because I generally think the MCU has done a good job of creating likable, engaging heroes, and what makes it stand out from earlier superhero movies (and, of course, Once) is that, in general, they seem to enjoy writing for the heroes more than the villains. 

There is actually a lot of controversy/discussion in the comic book world (both with creators, fans, and within the worlds themselves) now about the darkening of comic books and the overuse of villains and asshole heroes,, but thats a whole other can of worms :) 

I'm really not that versed in comic book stuff, but I was referring to the Andrew Garfield movies.  I didn't really connect.  I liked the first "Ironman" movie but after a few, I lost all connections to the character.  

[Rumsy4]

The violence is most series turns me off too. That's why I've been so reluctant to take the plunge and watch Game of Thrones. The Marvel Netflix series like Daredevil, etc. are mostly well-done, but there's a lot of violence in them as well. And sometimes I just mute the screen when it gets too much. 

[tennisgurl]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm really not that versed in comic book stuff, but I was referring to the Andrew Garfield movies.  I didn't really connect.  I liked the first "Ironman" movie but after a few, I lost all connections to the character.  

If you like Spiderman, I do recommend Spiderman Homecoming. Its a lot of fun with really likable, engaging characters, and a hero who is a hero because he wants to help people, and thats really it. Plus, it has a villain who has a sympathetic backstory and has some noble qualities, but is still a villain and the story doesn't downplay his more nasty deeds. 

I can deal with violence if its a good story, and I feel like the violence has a point. If it doesn't, I become less forgiving, and if it gets to be too much violence for violence sake, I usually lose interest. If theres violence but also a good story? I can deal with that. Maybe I am a little dark too :) 

[Camera One]

22 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The violence is most series turns me off too. That's why I've been so reluctant to take the plunge and watch Game of Thrones. 

That's my dilemma exactly.  After picking Tangled from the shelf, I left the children's section and then saw Game of Thrones, but decided against it.  Lucky I didn't bump into anyone I knew by accident, LOL.  "Oh, what did you borrow?  Do you have kids or something?  No?  .... ...."

[superloislane]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I actually really like Gotham (especially this season) even with its violence, messed up protagonists, and murderous rouges gallery. At least with Gotham, unlike Once, you pretty much know what your getting into right away. Its a weird, dark, often violent, highly stylized series, and it knows it. Everyone knows it.

I LOVE GOTHAM! If you want a completely crazy and ridiculously entertaining show then that's it. It's insanely violent and gory (and it airs at 8pm!) so if you don't like that then you might as well not watch it. I feel like I'm promoting it right now but this season it has gone very close to the comics and Bruce Wayne is actually getting closer to Batman. A show like that knows its villains are terrible and the heroes are actually allowed to say that they're awful and fight back against them but they have good actors portraying them so they can be sympathetic. And it's also nice to know that the villains will remain villains as that is their destiny in the story and they won't be redeemed terribly. It's not like Once where they actually try to manipulate the audience into feeling bad for the murderer because her victims went to have dinner without her and everyone just forgets everything that happened.

[Mabinogia]

13 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Rapunzel is sympathetic to him because she's a nice person, not because he's some kind of woobie, and they're treating him like he's unhinged and needs medical/psychiatric help rather than like someone who's going to be a friend. At least, I hope.

This makes me think, OUAT had an a character who was a shrink, at least in Storybrooke, throw in some scene's with Regina mentioning the therapy she's getting, show some sessions where she breaks down about what she did to Graham, or Snow, or pretty much anyone she's run into. Have her talk about how easy it is to fall back on dark magic to solve all her problems and have Hopper give her alternate ways to solve her problems. If they had just put actual effort into her redemption I think it would have been better accepted. Instead they seem to expect us to blindly accept everything they say. They really seem to have zero respect for their audience. If we don't blindly accept whatever they say, we just "don't get it" or we are just bitter about something, or any excuse other than they didn't tell their story well. 

[Spartan Girl]

13 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm afraid that does happen in every fandom. It just would help if the writers didn't always play into it. I didn't feel like the Tangled writers were encouraging it. They were showing him as unhinged and wrong. Rapunzel is sympathetic to him because she's a nice person, not because he's some kind of woobie, and they're treating him like he's unhinged and needs medical/psychiatric help rather than like someone who's going to be a friend. At least, I hope.

Not disagreeing. But at this point Rapunzel doesn't need to be bound to her guilt. Varian made his choice all on his own, and that's not her fault. And with Varian mewling over and over about how Rapunzel "broke her promise", I really hope the writers will give Raps a moment similar to Snow screaming "I WAS TEN!!" at Regina.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Instead they seem to expect us to blindly accept everything they say. They really seem to have zero respect for their audience. 

The writing for ONCE has one of the worst cases of "tell, don't show". This, added to the complete lack of internal consistency, makes for a very frustrating viewing experience. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writing for ONCE has one of the worst cases of "tell, don't show". This, added to the complete lack of internal consistency, makes for a very frustrating viewing experience. 

95% of OUAT is just characters standing around stating obvious plot points. There are so many talking head scenes, it's ridiculous. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[daxx]

I started a rewatch of BSG (Battlestar Galactica). It has such amazing writing the first season. I don't think I appreciated it as much back then. I wonder if it holds up.

I know there were a couple shocking twists. I want to see if there are clues. I did see clues to one of them early in season one and the twist doesn't occur until a couple seasons in and wraps in the finale.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, daxx said:

I started a rewatch of BSG (Battlestar Galactica). It has such amazing writing the first season. I don't think I appreciated it as much back then. I wonder if it holds up.

I know there were a couple shocking twists. I want to see if there are clues. I did see clues to one of them early in season one and the twist doesn't occur until a couple seasons in and wraps in the finale.

There shouldn't be ;)  Moore admitted the Cylons didn't have a plan.

[daxx]

37 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

There shouldn't be ;)  Moore admitted the Cylons didn't have a plan.

Oh, I know they never had a plan. But there are other things. Like.

Spoiler

Starbuck was told by a cylon that she has an important role to play in season 1. And later in the series she does play a unique role. These are the sorts of breadcrumbs I’m looking for.

[Spartan Girl]

Because I'm still bitter about how Once butchered Aladdin and Jasmine, I started a PTV topic for the old Disney TV cartoon. Anyone remember that show? If you're sick of this crap and want to reminisce about a better fairy tale show, come on over!

[Guest]

22 hours ago, daxx said:

Oh, I know they never had a plan. But there are other things. Like.

That's because they at least tried to answer the mysteries they set up.  So a step up from OUAT.

Don't get me wrong, I still love BSG.  But I listened to the podcasts while the show was airing.  Some of them were terrifying.  

[Camera One]

Ellen Pompeo was on "Ellen" talking about how great "Grey's Anatomy" still is despite losing its leading man, and she said:

Quote

“I think a lot of people were really upset about his departure, which is super understandable,” Pompeo went on. “But I think the change is part of the reason why the show goes on so long. I think people tune in to see what is the show look like now, what is Meredith going to do without Derek. I think they get so upset about the change, but change is precisely what everyone always needs to sort of get to the next place.”

I was getting flashbacks to those interviews in the summer when A&E and the cast were going on and on about how great change is.  Is "Grey's Anatomy" seriously still on top of its game?  I've never really watched it.  Could "Once" have learned something about how to drag a show out, uh, I mean continue a show while shedding half its cast?

Edited January 18, 2018 by Camera One

[superloislane]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was getting flashbacks to those interviews in the summer when A&E and the cast were going on and on about how great change is.  Is "Grey's Anatomy" seriously still on top of its game?  I've never really watched it.  Could "Once" have learned something about how to drag a show out, uh, I mean continue a show while shedding half its cast?

I stopped watching Grey's about 6 years ago because it kept killing everyone I liked but I think it's currently number 2 on the network. From my knowledge of the show through my obsessed sister I can tell you that Grey's making changes is acceptable because a)it's like every other hospital drama/cop show in that it focuses on a case of the week and as long as it has interesting stories which tie back to their main characters they're fine. b)They have kept their main character and have never replaced her. I think someone at ABC recently said that they will keep Grey's running as long as Ellen wants to keep doing it so they have always been able to keep people watching who are invested in her. And c)they have never done a full revamp in a new location with an all new cast. They introduce new characters who mingle with their old and use that to develop them into characters the audience can invest in.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, superloislane said:

They introduce new characters who mingle with their old and use that to develop them into characters the audience can invest in.

That's generally the trick for maintaining a long-running show with a lot of cast changes. I can't really think of one that's successfully pulled off the trick of abruptly getting rid of most of the original cast and bringing in all new people, all at once. Usually, one of the original cast members has some kind of storyline that leads to that character's departure, whether a death or them moving on to other things. Then they bring on a new cast member in a secondary role, establishing relationships with that character and the existing cast. Another cast member may then have a departure arc, and then they add more new cast members. It does help if the main character sticks around, but it can also work with everyone turning over on an ensemble show.

I think this is where Once was hampered in that "everyone is related to everyone else" issue because there weren't too many good potential departure arcs for the existing characters. The writers may have been tired of the Charmings, but it's hard to imagine them leaving Storybrooke while their daughter and grandson were there, and with Snow treating Regina as some kind of BFF/mother/daughter figure (notice that Regina apparently didn't have the same qualms). It would have made a lot of sense for Rumple to be killed off or banished, but they never stuck with him having a departure arc. They kept bringing him back every time he could have been written out. There was also room for Belle to go off to find herself. Likewise Zelena. But for the most part, the only way to get rid of the characters they no longer wanted was to change locations, and that required doing it all at once. People weren't going to gradually leave Storybrooke to make room for a new cast.

Oddly, one of the other examples of a cast shakeup that I can recall was House, which also involved Jennifer Morrison getting downgraded and then leaving. After three seasons, they abruptly shook up the cast, moving aside the three original fellows and bringing in an entirely new cast. But in that case, they still had the same main character, they still had his primary sidekicks, and they were still in the same location. They also did bring back the originals gradually, in slightly different roles. It was just Jennifer Morrison's character who ended up being dumped entirely (I've wondered if that was a factor in her decision to leave Once -- she'd been through that kind of cast shakeup before, and although her character did initially stick around, it didn't go well for her in the long run). I don't know that I would call this move successful for the series. It did go on to run several more years. I'm not sure what happened with the ratings. I think there was some critical praise initially for them being so bold as to shake things up, but it ended up being not implemented very well and I'm not sure the show ever really recovered.

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

It did go on to run several more years. I'm not sure what happened with the ratings. I think there was some critical praise initially for them being so bold as to shake things up, but it ended up being not implemented very well and I'm not sure the show ever really recovered.

The seasons after the first cast shakeup were pretty good and they retained the previous characters so they weren't completely dumped and forgotten. Although I believe they had their biggest drop in ratings after that season. The season after Cameron (JMo) left, season 7, was the worst season of that show though. I'm not saying it was because she left or anything but the quality really plummeted. The season after that (which had a huge cast shakeup again when another main actress left and not in a very amicable way either) was the last and I think they went into it knowing it was the last

[Shanna Marie]

20 minutes ago, superloislane said:

The season after Cameron (JMo) left, season 7, was the worst season of that show though. I'm not saying it was because she left or anything but the quality really plummeted.

That was when I quit watching, I think. I do know that what totally killed it for me was when they hired a third-year medical student to be the new fellow. I used to work at a medical school, and I knew that was utterly impossible. You're not a fellow until you've graduated from medical school and completed a residency. Medicine, regardless of how Hollywood likes to portray it, isn't the sort of thing you can test out of or skip grades if you're really smart. Once you're in medical school, it's about gaining experience. All those years of training are necessary, no matter how smart you are. No one is going to be able to skip from third-year to fellow. Not to mention, third year is the hell year, the year of clinical rotations when students seldom even sleep. They have to work through all the rotations rather than focusing on any one department. There's no way you can hold down a job during that year, and you wouldn't be able to stay in one department. I did come back for the last season or so after she was gone. I think that was also after they got rid of Cuddy and the terrible attempt at a romance with House, and when they really moved the two remaining original regulars to more prominence again.

I would say that one thing House had in common with Once was the creators becoming legends in their own minds, which led them to do all kinds of stupid stuff and consider it brilliant. They also shared the tendency to become enamored with some members of the cast and start writing things to please them (which were usually some of the worst plots that didn't fit the show). The House writers were even worse in acting like drunk monkeys, just randomly throwing bizarre plots out there and having the characters do crazy things.

[Shanna Marie]

I had to crack up at the title of this week's episode of The Magicians: "Heroes and Morons." It's more apt a title for the season 4 finale than "Heroes and Villains."

But I don't think it's inspired by or an homage to Once because they went on a riff about what a genre cliche it is for a baby to grow up at a different rate from the parents so it grows up in seemingly no time, and of all the shows they've listed, they didn't list any of the times that's happened on this show, like Gideon or even the case of Emma.

[Camera One]

I just watched "Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them".  It was more engaging than I thought it would be.  I tend to find it hard to connect to new characters when they're all new in a franchise.  Although the characters weren't really that fleshed out and I'm not really too intrigued by what will happen next (having five movies of this seems like overkill), I did think it created an interesting world to revisit, and it used a change in setting (both the move from England to NYC and the time shift from the present to the 1920's) to its advantage to make the story and the visuals feel fresh.  This is what is sorely lacking in the 7A requel.  The Harry Potter reminded me how magical a fantasy world *could* be, and given the vast sources that the "Once" writers could draw from, it's pretty sad that they're always getting their ideas from same stale well.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

it used a change in setting (both the move from England to NYC and the time shift from the present to the 1920's) 

That's curious -- changing from England to NYC allows more PoC (because there are no PoC in England, donchaknow) but changing from the present to the 20's (and most assuredly not mentioning the Harlem Renaissance) allows them to ignore PoC. 

[Guest]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 8:52 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I had to crack up at the title of this week's episode of The Magicians: "Heroes and Morons." It's more apt a title for the season 4 finale than "Heroes and Villains."

But I don't think it's inspired by or an homage to Once because they went on a riff about what a genre cliche it is for a baby to grow up at a different rate from the parents so it grows up in seemingly no time, and of all the shows they've listed, they didn't list any of the times that's happened on this show, like Gideon or even the case of Emma.

I agree that OUAT isn't anywhere on the Magicians radar but the title was funny.

I was thinking about OUAT when watching "Heroes and Morons". 

There are just simple things on that show that make me wish that the OUAT writers were more creative.  Just the simple idea that their boat is made from a living tree that is kind of an ass made me disappointed in OUAT.  There are ways to inject humor and the fantastical into everyday objects without major effects costs.

Oh and bunnies are way better than magic beans.

Edited January 23, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, ParadoxLost said:

Just the simple idea that their boat is made from a living tree that is kind of an ass made me disappointed in OUAT. 

It never ended up meaning anything that the Jolly Roger was made of enchanted wood. They kept saying that, but we never learned why that mattered, and it never seemed to make any difference in the plot.

[jhlipton]

59 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

bunnies are way better than magic beans.

Anya says "NOOOOOOOO!!!!"  Do you really want a Vengeance Demon on your tail????

[Shanna Marie]

There's a BBC radio drama that's a retelling of Snow White from the queen's perspective available online for the next week or so. You can find it here. It's hard to describe. It's definitely not a Regina-like queen, maybe closer to Cora in her ambitious barmaid time. And the king is rather creepy. But I think they do a good job of walking the fine line of showing sympathy for the queen's position while not ignoring the fact that she does horrible things. It's one hour long and worth a listen if you're interested in different retellings of fairy tales.