S04.E07: Mockingbird

[Which Tyler]

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Episode synopsis:

Tyrion gains an unlikely ally; Daario asks Dany to allow him to do what he does best; Jon's warnings about the vulnerability of the Wall are ignored; Brienne follows a new lead.

[90PercentGravity]

Hotpie!

 

Buh-bye Lysa. Will Robin go next?

 

Frustrated with Brienne. So close to making the right decision.

 

Hooray for Oberyn. I thought for a second he was going to kill Tyrion himself right there. I much prefer what actually happened. Oberyn vs The Mountain was not anywhere near my list of possible face-offs for the TBC.

 

I think Jorah is headed for a great fall.

 

If Jon Snow and Stannis ever share a scene, I'm pretty sure the whole world will go the way of Rip Van Winkle.

[walnutqueen]

I needed a moment when Oberyn said:  "I will be your champion".

 

Life's going to suck for Robin now.

[RadiantAerynSun]

YAYYYYY that was cathartic!! 

 

HOT PIE!!! LYSA!!

 

Wait, I thought Brienne DID make the right call? Will have to go back and rewatch :/

 

As soon as Oberyn walked into the cell it clicked. THE MOUNTAIN? Who would be willing to risk their life to kill the Mountain? OH YEAH!!! No idea why this didn't occur. Glad Jaime won't be sacrificing himself for Tyrion as we were kind of speculating...

 

At first I wanted to punch Bronn, but then I sort of understood. So did Tyrion. Except, wait, did he hint he would kill his wife's sister?! Not cool, Bronn.

 

SO confused on Littlefinger now. Was any of what he said to Sansa true? That he really did arrange Joffrey's death for revenge for Cat's death?! Usually I deeply suspect him, but I kind of thought he was being honest. He seemed strangely sincere. And yet, i still can't trust him bc of all the mess he caused with Ned.

[stillshimpy]

Oh lord, that was Sansa's first kiss, wasn't it?  Gods and demons, saints and sinner, Sansa's going to think she's in love with freaking Littlefinger, isn't she?  This is the girl who loves, loves, loves fairytales and not only has Littlefinger got her convinced he rescued her from a terrible place, with a horrible family and a vicious king, she's now going to think he killed her Aunt to save her.  

 

Ay yi yi.  So, that's one I didn't call.  Sure, that Littlefinger was going to kill Lyssa, because clearly, that seemed like a given from the moment he agreed to marry her.  Rather, I didn't think that there was a chance in hell that Littlefinger could endear himself to Sansa.  

 

 

 

As soon as Oberyn walked into the cell it clicked. THE MOUNTAIN? Who would be willing to risk their life to kill the Mountain? OH YEAH!!! No idea why this didn't occur. Glad Jaime won't be sacrificing himself for Tyrion as we were kind of speculating...

 

First of all, we're on our Third Mountain, aren't we?  What in the hell are they doing to the actors who have played the Mountain on that set? 

 

Secondly, my husband figured that out from the second the New!Improved!Ludicrously Large!Mountain appeared and I thought he was wrong, because I didn't think Oberyn would risk his life for Tyrion.  Thirdly, jebus, so Oberyn is going to die?  The Mountain isn't above cheating.  Maybe Loras will help Oberyn somehow? He also hates The Mountain. 

 

I'm pretty fed up with A Show on this "Oh, no women can totally inherit" because that seems like a change or retcon, but fine, we've now had multiple occurrences of it being outright stated that women can inherit an estate.  Presumably if all male possibilities have been exhausted.  

 

I'm still too entirely weirded out that Littlefinger kissed Sansa to process much, but hey, there's hotpie! Brienne came within an inch of actually setting off in the right direction.  

 

Also, who the hell was that at the beginning that both Arya and The Hound gave a damn about him being mortally wounded?  

[Pallas]

Ah, that was delicious.  When setting the DVR at 8:00, I accidentally saw the synopsis in the onscreen guide that read, "Tyrion gets an unexpected ally," and it suddenly clicked. Oberyn!: Oberyn, who Tyrion greeted as as the acclaimed warrior, or some such; Oberyn, who Tyrion saw display his finesse against a Lannister underling in the brothel; Oberyn, who then told Tyrion of his grudge against the Mountain and Tywin.  I wanted to race to the computer and post, but our Oath prevailed.  This was an ill-gotten spec.  But what joy to see his robes descend the staircase to Tyrion's cell.

 

And did he not say, "First, I kill the Mountain..."  

 

Tywin, Cersei and the Mountain are now bound together as the prosecutors of this trial.  Here comes da judge.

 

Was there a way to know which road led north, and which to the Eyrie?  I thought it was meant to be ambiguous, and I'm betting that Brienne liked Pod's saying, "I'm not (sure)" -- enough to take his advice.

 

Sansa's snow Winterfell was beautiful.  Also, Hot Pie's direwolf loaf.

[90PercentGravity]

My read on the Pod/Brienne scene was that Pod was turned toward the upper road, because it lead to The Eerie and Brienne was turned toward the lower road, because it lead to the wall. The road Pod was facing went UP and the road Brienne was facing went DOWN. So, to me, it looked like they chose to go to the wall, because they went on the down road that Brienne was facing.

[Pallas]

Oh lord, that was Sansa's first kiss, wasn't it?

 

Was it?  I thought Joffrey kissed her when he gave her the necklace?  Maybe not.   I'm not as worried that she'll fall in love with Littlefinger; I think Sansa is beginning to develop a bullshit detector, especially with regard to Littlefinger.  I don't think she has let down her guard with him since before he set sail from King's Landing, last season.  In this ep, she was wary and politic in response to all his declarations.  And, she just heard her aunt declare all that she did for love of him, and heard him declare all that he did for love of her mother.  I think she does perceive him to be of a piece with the evil she discovered in the capital.

 

Also, who the hell was that at the beginning that both Arya and The Hound gave a damn about him being mortally wounded?

 

Just another casualty of war, I think.  He posed no threat but kept his dignity and set the quiet, fatalistic tone, more or less.  He took it like a soldier.  

[abelard]

I'm not at all worried that Sansa will fall for LF's creepy shtick. (Which means of course that that's exactly what will happen.)  I also don't think we're supposed to know (for now) which way Brienne and Pod went.  We have no way of knowing which direction either of those roads went in, so next week I guess we'll just see where they're headed.  

 

I called Oberyn as Tyrion's champion the second I saw The Mountain (well once I figured out that it was The Mountain - recast much?).  What could be better for Oberyn than having a perfectly legal pretext in which to kill The Mountain?  I never thought The Mountain would fight for The Crown but that sets it up perfectly for Dornish Revenge.  Part One.  Since Oberyn said, "I will start with Gregor Clegane."  Yeah!!!  Let's start there, my prince!!!!!!!!!

 

Poor Sansa.  But so glad Crazy Lysa is gone.  Even though I liked her ability to skeeve out LF so hard, I won't miss her.  So who is Lord of the Vale now?  I guess Robin has been Lord since Jon Arryn's death.  So will Robin be the next to fly through the moon door?  And if Robin dies, will that somehow make LF Lord of the Vale?  

Edited May 19, 2014 by abelard

[North Star]

Oh lord, that was Sansa's first kiss, wasn't it?

Joffrey kissed her in a very Princess Bride-y scene back in season 1, right before everything went to hell for her.

 

She also married Tyrion, but I don't know if Westerosi wedding ceremonies include a kiss or not.  We didn't see one, anyway.

[Snowblack]

Yuck.  Just yuck.  I'm with Pallas and Abelard on what direction Sansa's headed.  I don't think she bought Little Finger's story for an instant.  And he just murdered his wife in front of her.  She may still act the naive northern girl, but that's only on the outside.  She's gotten wise to Little Finger's game.  My guess is that she will take Robin up on his offer to make their enemies fly.  She'll need to do some manipulation, but I think it's the only escape she has from a desparate situation.  Otherwise, how will this go down?  Little Finger gets to manipulate the couple who (theoretically) control both the Vale and the North, and he puts his filthy hands on Sansa.  And I can't bear that.  So Sansa will send Little Finger the way of Lysa.  The only question is whether the Hound and Arya and/or Brienne and Podrick will arrive before it happens. 

[DemosthenesKey]

Ugh. DAMN you, Littlefinger... I think I kind of like you a little now. :/ Mostly because of that absolutely CHILLING last line, and because I saw more honesty from him this episode than I saw in all previous seasons.

Other thoughts include:

Well! More honesty from Melisandre, although I'm a little worried for Shireen now... and was I the only one who kind of thought Stannis's wife was checking out Mel a bit? 0_o Still, if there was any doubt that Mel is a true believer, I think it's gone now. And I suppose I can kind of see where she's coming from, using the whole Batman misdirection-and-lies thing to back up the Real Truth...

Arya's kill of that dude she didn't know the name of: yet another point for Arya being a total badass, as if there was ever any doubt. Also, her and the Hound remain my favorite odd couple. despite...

Pod and Brienne meeting Hot Pie! And if they go after the Vale, as someone suggested, then that's a plus! Although I don't see Littlefinger letting them just take Sansa away somehow, and Robin doesn't seem like the type either... At this point I'm just rooting for LF to finish the job...

Oberyn vs the Mountain at last! Poor Hound - guess he won't get his brotherly revenge after all. Suppose that's what happens when there's a ton of people you've killed.

[WhiteStumbler]

When I first saw Random Dying Farmer 42 it looked sort of like Stannis and I froze for a beat. Guy died with dignity. Not so much Rouge or whatever. Was his partner in bounty hunting seriously trying to kill The Hound by gnawing thru his neck or giving him an infected wound? Arya's story is getting darker. Now she is trolling for names to add to her list.

A Show hasn't shown the Eyrie in the opening this season, but I remember it being east of the Riverlands and north of KL. If Brienne was heading north (towards the Wall) and turned right, the would be heading east, towards Slimeyfinger and Sansa. I know it won't happen: Stark Shall Never Reunite With Stark. It is known.

[gingerella]

My, my, my...My heart was POUNDING when LF finally pushed Lysa into the moon hole and yet I was thinking, "YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! Buh.Bye. Aunt Crazypants!" Niiiiiice. And yet, now we have another problem with Sansa, fair maiden, now at the clutches of LF, and yet, as I previously spitballed, I have a sneaking suspicion that Crazy Lord Robin just might end up saving Sansa from LF by making him fly. But as we have now seen, Robin has a bad temper when he doesnt get his way. Jesus H. Christ, Sansa really is in a no win situation right now, unless she does end up falling for LF and he sends Robin on a free flight to visit Mama. I can only hope now, that Brienne and Pod make it to the Eyrie and save Lady Sansa before LF pops her chaste cherry.

Oh yeah, and HOTPIE!

And Ghost! I love direwolf sightings, we get so few nowadays. How many are left? Ghost, Summer, Shaggy Dog, and isnt it unclear whether Nymeria is still out there or not? Lady and Jon's wolf are gone, but is it possible that we have 4 wolves still out there? I really REALLY want to see: A Man, and Nymeria hook up with Arya again...maybe trail Arya for a while until Arya notices she is being followed and realizes its her old direwolf...that would make A Viewer very happy.

ETA: So, like, do we think Oberyn has a chance in hell to defeat The Mountain v4.0? I dont think Oberyn is a stupid man. I think he is very calculated and cunning, and I have a feeling he has more in common with Tyrion than we realized. I mean, they are both disciples of the God of Wine and Tits. I would love nothing more than for Oberyn to defeat and kill The Mountain, then kill Tywin, and lastly kill Cersei, or sell her to a whorehouse or something like that, where she wished she was dead instead. A quick death is too good for Cersei, if you ask me, but at least Oberyn knows who she really is...that story he told Tyrion was so heartbreakingly sad, and made me hate that bitch all the more.

Edited May 19, 2014 by gingerella

[arry the orphan]

 

So, like, do we think Oberyn has a chance in hell to defeat The Mountain v4.0?

 

Well, for four seasons the Mountain was hyped to be the strongest fighter in Westeros. Jaime was once hyped as well and turned out not so great. Nonetheless, lets assume the Mountain really is the strongest fighter. Bronn seemed to think there are some possible tactics to defeat him (tire him out, get him off his feet). Oberyn is also presumably a very good figther and confident enough to think he can win. However, there are other factors at play:

 

Mycella: She is "guest" in Dorne. And although Oberyn assured Cersei, that they don't hurt little girls in Dorne, what would happen to her, if Cerseis champion killed Oberyn?

 

Tywin: Can Tywin afford to lose Dorne as an ally? He said he needs the Tyrells for the gold and he needs the Dornish, because they were the only ones able to resist the Targaryens and their dragons. I am also not convinced that Tywin wants to see Tyrion dead and he offered Oberyn a chance to get his revenge on the Mountain before. I can actually see Tywin trying to rig the trial by combat in Oberyns favour, only for Cersei to sabotage that attempt.

 

Also its time for Varys to do something and remember to help Tyrion (perhaps his sorcerer in a box comes in handily to manipulate the fight?

 

Best player of the game of thrones? BRONN! Dude is going to get a castle (and a lordship with it?)

And I think I also figured out the rules of inheriting. A women can inherit titles and castles, if there are no surviving males, a women can also rule as regent for her son (like Cersein and Lysa), but if she has a husband, her husband gets to rule in her stead (Sansa would inherit the North, but Tyrion would rule)

Edited May 19, 2014 by arry the orphan

[RadiantAerynSun]

Yeah Bronn is definitely the big winner so far on this show. (And to a lesser degree, Hot Pie! Who did not get killed during his reappearance! Believe me, I was worried.)

 

Perhaps Oberyn will somehow poison his blade, since we've established he is an Expert In Poisons (for seemingly no other reason)

 

Although I like the spec that maybe Cersei will have to sabotage the Mountain for fear that the Dornish would hurt Myrcella if Oberyn were killed.

[Glory]

Part one of my spec has come true! Lysa is dead! If Sansa offs Littlefinger and they get word of Tyrion's win via Oberon then Sansa and Tyrion can rule the Vale as Robin's regent! She is, after all, his cousin! Couldn't that work?

This show is killing me! I, too, did not have Oberon on my list of champions until the mountain appeared on screen. But Oberon is very good. That scene with Tyrion was mesmerizing! Amazingly well acted on both sides.

[AngelKitty]

I actually clapped when Oberyn offered to be Tyrion's champion, this makes me very happy.  And I just can't help it, I love Bronn.

 

I was very surprised Littlefinger killed Lyssa so soon and I hope they fly that kid, too, 'cause you know he's never going to change.  We really don't need another Joffrey.

 

As for Sansa, well, I do think she'll fall for Littlefinger's bullshit.  He's not really lying, getting revenge for Cat being killed is certainly one of his reasons for killing Joffrey.  And besides, Sansa is not too bright.

[Glory]

Oh another thing - so Tyrion truly believes Shae betrayed him? I kind of thought her testimony was ambiguous in that she could have been forced to make it. But Tyrion thinks she did it because she never really loved him?

[WhiteStumbler]

If Mel touches a hair on sweet Shireen's head and Stannis doesn't immediately kill her, I am renouncing my membership on Team Stannis.

[DirewolfPup]

Good points and synopses from everyone!!

 

Mel might consider using Shireen for her "King's Blood" ritual that she didn't get from Gendry.

 

The Tyrion and Jamie scene in tonight's episode was nuts. I'm misquoting here but Tyrion's line about "You can slay the king, loose your hand, fuck your sister and you're still the golden child" to Jamie's face. I gasped. That's cold Tyrion. Whoa.

[MrMicrophone]

Dire,

Tyrion sees the truth. And the truth is a cold, harsh mistress.

He truly has a gift that lets others learn the truth through him (Jon and Bran in particular).

Cersei really does use real empathy, real feelings when she's manipulating people.

That's one thing she didn't learn from her father.

 

I don't think Tywin would have ever forgiven Tyrion for being a dwarf -- but his hate 

does stem from losing the love of his life (I choose to believe that such a Hard Man

actually loved someone enough to marry her).

 

Cersei, though? Her loss of a mother turned her towards revenge -- as Tywin would have

taught. Pay your debts, and in her mind, Tyrion owes her a weighty debt.

[Pallas]

I'm misquoting here but Tyrion's line about "You can slay the king, loose your hand, fuck your sister and you're still the golden child" to Jamie's face. I gasped. That's cold Tyrion. Whoa.

 

One of these two men has lived life as a loathed son -- treated by his father as a usurper, a usurper of the Lannister name and the role of son -- and despised dwarf. Now he rots in prison, about to be put to death by their father for a crime he knows their father knows he did not commit.  Shortly before that, though, he saved the Throne for his family and the very boy he is accused of killing. 

 

The other man lived life as the child who, in his father's eyes, could do nothing right -- but who nonetheless could also do nothing too wrong.  Including fuck his sister to produce the line of bastard usurpers whose existence toppled the kingdom into war, in which their father came down strongly on the side of bastard usurpers.  Man #1, about to die, notes this to Man #2, about to leave the cell, have a good dinner and go on about his life, free even from upholding the bargain he made with their father.  

 

But by saying the unsayable, Tyrion actually confirmed his bond with Jaime.  He said it, and their bond survived.  Their bond, I think, grew stronger.  Even to say such a thing aloud is, in a way, to speak of the forgiveness that Tyrion has always offered Jaime, and to intimate that this is mercy that Jaime may have already earned. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

I wish Tyrion had asked Bronn WTH happened with Shae getting on the boat (or not)

[abelard]

RadiantAerynSun, I like your spec that maybe Oberyn will use his poison-training to poison his blade!!  That would mean if he even nicks The Mountain, he'll win!!!  I agree that Tywin seemed ready to sell out The Mountain to Oberyn no problem, so I am thinking Tywin will not care too much of The Mountain falls.  PLUS, a poisoned blade is the other weapon used in the last scene of Hamlet - the first weapon is the poisoned pearl in the wine - so if Oberyn uses a poisoned blade, it would complete the Hamlet allusions this story has been making all this season.

 

TellSackett, I really like your theory about the Starks being the earth.  Nurturing and life-giving.  And maybe their power that you speak of comes from the fact that they "ground" people.  They sort of give people this strange feeling of safety, or even coming-home-to-themselves.  Actually I thought Cersei in that "confrontation" scene with Ned by the fountain revealed more of herself than she ever did to anyone else on this show, b/c she told a story about her vulnerability, her heart being broken and her dreams being shattered, and the tragedy of having to be wed to a man who would never ever ever love her.  There is something in Starks that make people confide in them, for real (Cersei to Ned [though she already had her knives out for him], Talisa to Robb, Mormont and Sam and Ygrit to Jon, The Hound to Arya, LF to Sansa, I'm sure there are others) - I'm sure it's because although they are always in peril, they make people feel something like safety.  And there is something in Starks that has immense power even when they are completely down and nearly out.  Even, as you said about Ned, when they are dead, they have power, great power. 

 

On a very shallow note: how supercute was that direwolf cookie thing that Hotpie baked for Arya!!!???!!!!!  What I thought was, he maybe got up even earlier than usual (bakers start their day in the middle of the night, really, and Brienne and Pod were probably getting going first thing in the morning) to design and bake that thing.  And it was so much better than his first attempt (the first one made Arya ask, "That's the head?  And that's the tail!"  This one really looked just like a direwolf, even just like the Stark sigil (with the crosshatching to indicate the hairs of the wolf's pelt)!  Hotpie's been getting better :) :).  But not only that, the prop designers of the show are geniuses.  I love that they showed the less-good one last season, and this season, they show this really excellent bake.  The one prop conveys so much: Hotpie hoping that Arya is okay, Hotpie demonstrating to Brienne that he really does know Arya and is on her side, and the Stark sigil coming together, sort of, becoming clearer and sharper in everyone's view, including ours.  Great, great use of a prop and a symbol.  

[WhiteStumbler]

I loved how three different potential "Champions" for Tyrion were interviewed in his prison cell - Jaime, Bronn, and (gasp!) Oberyn.

 

I think I mentioned Oberyn last week as a 'bad-ass fighter who Tyrion would be aware of', but my assumption then was that it would be improper to select one of the judges as a champion. Might be the first time in the history of Westeros this has happened. Oberyn's story about Baby!Tyrion made me tear up a little.

 

I still wish that Jaime had called Tywin's bluff and stood as Tyrion's Champion.

 

Pod's horseback riding has improved, and Abelard wrote the lovely post above regarding (in part) how Hotpie can do his Wolf Bread Special so that it looks a lot nicer. Did Arya's MurderPony look larger this week?

 

Question - I believe that Brienne and Pod are heading to The Vale (I am nearly 99% sure that is what was implied by their turn to the right-hand path). Do they believe that Arya is being ransomed to Lysa by the Brotherhood Without Banners? Because Hotpie couldn't have known that The Hound (who was mentioned) now has Arya as a captive, right?

 

ETA: WHO IS PETYR GOING TO BLAME? He can't say that Sansa did it, no one will believe Lysa committed suicide, and he can't cop to it himself. The only other character I remember from The Eyrie is Mord.

Edited May 19, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[RadiantAerynSun]

I also LOVED the callback to Hotpie's argument with Lommy/Gendry in S2 about armor and whether wearning it meant you were a knight.. SQUEEE... that was always one of my favorite scenes.

[stillshimpy]

ETA: WHO IS PETYR GOING TO BLAME? He can't say that Sansa did it, no one will believe Lysa committed suicide, and he can't cop to it himself. The only other character I remember from The Eyrie is Mord.

 

Actually, White Stumbler, I think people would believe Crazypants Lyssa  committed suicide, the real problem is what Sansa is going to tell people, I think.  Littlefinger can say, "She was mad, she lunged at me, raving about her sister Catelyn.  She never believed I quit caring about Catelyn, it was tragic really.  I think she was mad with grief over the loss of a sister.  Having her niece so near, brought Catelyn to mind.  I stepped to the side and tried to keep her from falling, catching her just in time, I steadied her.  She said she'd never bear my child, never be a mother to anyone but Robyn, then she cried out and threw herself to the rocks below."  

 

So yeah, there's a bunch of bull that Littlefinger could make up and realistically, who's really going to be loyal to Lyssa?  She as vindictive as Cersei, but without the social skills, as hard as that is to believe.  So aside from demented Robyn, no one is likely to mourn her as their Good Lady and Leader, because I don't know if you noticed are not, but Lyssa?  Not so much with the wining personality traits.  

 

I think Littlefinger's problem is not what the people of the Vale will do to her, but what Sansa will say.  

 

Also, I don't think Brienne went to the Vale.  

[Snowblack]

The scene with Melisandre made so many things click into place for me.  She openly admits that most of the Lord of Light Show is trickery.  It made me think back to the scene with the Brotherhood where she is so amazed at Beric's repeated resurrection, and it also tied into the warlocks in Qarth.  Magic has waned for so long that these people are reduced to cheap magic tricks to make people believe in what was once very real.  And it has faded into the stuff of legend, just like the Wall and White Walkers riding giant spiders.  But now it's becoming a real force in the world again.  The priest of the Lord of Light says words that have been meaningless for centuries (?), and Beric is resurrected.  The warlock in Qarth can suddenly create copies of himself to murder his enemies.  It's no longer smoke and mirrors, and it seems that Melisandre is as awe-struck as everyone else.  She has such a certainty about her, but I wonder how much of what she's doing is trial and error.  She raises real questions for me about the apparently capricious nature of magic in this world.

Question - I believe that Brienne and Pod are heading to The Vale (I am nearly 99% sure that is what was implied by their turn to the right-hand path). Do they believe that Arya is being ransomed to Lysa by the Brotherhood Without Banners? Because Hotpie couldn't have known that The Hound (who was mentioned) now has Arya as a captive, right?

 

I was confused about this too.  Why would the Hound be significant enough to mention?  And then Pod's sudden realization that Sansa might also be at the Aerie.  It seemed too convenient, and kind of lame.  But I like that Brienne and Pod are on a collision course with the Starks, whether or not it actually happens.  And I did take the right fork in the path to equate to the Aerie.  I assume that the wall is north (straight), and the Aerie and Brotherhood are not north.  I want to see how Arya/Hound/Brienne/Pod make it past the hill tribes and past the blood gate, if they get that far.     

Finally, I think Oberyn will handily beat the Mountain using brains rather than brawn.  It's clear that nobody stands a chance fighting toe to toe against the Mountain.  What he needs to win is to not play the Mountain's game.  He needs to use projectiles or poison or some other equalizer.  But I'm sure he will, and he will get the revenge he seeks.  It's almost too predictable.  But what happens next between Oberyn and the Lannisters is what interests me.

[DirewolfPup]

Littlefinger has said that Sansa is his niece, so they won't be able to pin Lyssa's "suicide" on proximity to family.

[RadiantAerynSun]

Also wondering how LF will ever marry sansa (which I think is his goal) if she is his "niece"!  Maybe once (or now that?) he is lord regent of the Vale, he can announce who Sansa is with impunity? Not like they can take the Eyrie by force to get her. And all hell may be breaking loose in KL shortly anyway. Maybe LF will now pull some strings with Stannis and co, to destabilize the Lannisters further. Maybe he can arrange a marriage between Loras and Shireen to satisfy the Tyrells.

[Pallas]

So many great posts.  This episode opened the throttle on the emotional forces at work, so that Littlefinger's killing Lysa felt almost anti-climactic.  

 

Tyrion saying that Cersei uses "honest feelings for dishonest ends." That could be a tagline for this episode, as I think it applied to Littlefinger and Mel this episode. -- TellSackett

 

Terrific insight into how that line played out.  See also the interplay between Dario, Dany and Jorah.  

 

Perhaps Oberyn will somehow poison his blade, since we've established he is an Expert In Poisons (for seemingly no other reason) -- RadiantAerynSun

 

Wonderful, and how it plays into abelard's account earlier and here of the Hamlet reverberations.  Something is rotten in the state of  Westeros.

 

There is something in Starks that make people confide in them, for real (Cersei to Ned [though she already had her knives out for him], Talisa to Robb, Mormont and Sam and Ygrit to Jon, The Hound to Arya, LF to Sansa, I'm sure there are others) -- abelard

 

I loved the Hound's saying, after Arya stabs the evil asshole through the heart, "You're learning."  She's not the only one, Tough Guy.

 

I think I mentioned Oberyn last week as a 'bad-ass fighter who Tyrion would be aware of', but my assumption then was that it would be improper to select one of the judges as a champion. Might be the first time in the history of Westeros this has happened. Oberyn's story about Baby!Tyrion made me tear up a little. -- WhiteStumbler

 

I knew someone had twigged to that on the board last week!  And without any help from the onscreen preview.  Well done, Stumbler.  

 

I believe that Brienne and Pod are heading to The Vale (I am nearly 99% sure that is what was implied by their turn to the right-hand path). Do they believe that Arya is being ransomed to Lysa by the Brotherhood Without Banners?

 

No, I think Pod proposed that to Sansa, her aunt at the Eyrie was at least as likely as Jon at the Wall to be someone with whom she might seek refuge -- and Arya as well, if she still lived.  

 

I think Littlefinger's problem is not what the people of the Vale will do to her, but what Sansa will say. -- stillshimpy

 

I agree.  Littlefinger is so used to having or leaving no witness to his chicanery.  And also unused to anyone's seeing through his mockingbird-Uriah-Peep act, or, having a strong dedication to telling the truth.   

 

It's no longer smoke and mirrors, and it seems that Melisandre is as awe-struck as everyone else.  She has such a certainty about her, but I wonder how much of what she's doing is trial and error.  She raises real questions for me about the apparently capricious nature of magic in this world. -- Snowblack

 

Beautiful musings throughout the post.  More and better magic is surely in store for us.  Mel has designs on Shireen for some huge project, on the order of the Smoke Baby or maybe even bigger.  And the Brotherhood Without Scruples (but one hell of a a party piece) is still out there somewhere. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

I thought Pod/Brienne's line of thinking was understandable. Hot Pie said they were being taken to the Wall. But then they were taken captive by the Lannisters. Escaped. Then were taken captive by the BWBs. Last he saw Arya they were planning to ransom her to her family at Riverrun. I think Pod/Brienne then connected the dots: everyone at RIverrun they could ransom her to is now dead; next wealthy relative: Lysa Arryn. Have no trouble believing Pod would know this as he stated Tyrion made sure he knew "who hated who" and he had been reciting the houses of Dorne in an earlier ep so I think he's done his research for this mission. Still not clear on if they followed his suggestion or not... I think maybe it was left open to interpretation. But I thought it sounded logical since as far as they knew, Arya was being ransomed by the Brotherhood, not just wandering around on her own. Arya would probably head for Jon Snow; the Brotherhood would head for Lysa Arryn. (As, apparently, did the Hound).

[Snowblack]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly Stannis is doing.  If he's sailing off into battle, why is he taking his wife and daughter?  That seems odd to me.  Maybe Melisandre has insisted on their inclusion.  Her intimation that they need Shireen is so disturbing...maybe if things go badly in battle, her blood can turn the tide somehow.  I'm trying to come up with some other use for them, but I'm not having much luck.  I didn't get a feel for whether they were sailing over to King's Landing or north towards the Wall.  I'm just glad they're finally leaving Dragon Stone and doing something!

[RadiantAerynSun]

I sorta thought maybe they were going NOrth since Mel mentioned not getting another proper bath for a while, but I guess that could be true on the road to the south too.

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: “I’m a stupid little girl with stupid dreams who never learns, and... I’m a terrible liar, so I should always tell the truth.”

 

So Sansa is probably dead? Ugh.

 

Most moving quote for me (in an episode filled with them) was the Hound - "I didn't steal it. I was just playing with it." He looked positively broken then.

[Pallas]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly Stannis is doing.  If he's sailing off into battle, why is he taking his wife and daughter?  That seems odd to me.

 

Another destination left ambiguous, I think.  But it makes more sense to me that Stannis is bringing his family with him to be part of his triumphant entry into King's Landing, than taking them up North.  Melisandre may have sold him on the idea that this final battle will somehow be, like the endgame with Renly, relatively bloodless.

 

Well. Except for the blood of close relatives. 

[Anothermi]

Oh another thing - so Tyrion truly believes Shae betrayed him? I kind of thought her testimony was ambiguous in that she could have been forced to make it. But Tyrion thinks she did it because she never really loved him? - Glory

Even if her testimony was ambiguous, Tyrion would see her giving it as proof that she never loved him because:

1 - Shae is still alive, which means Tywin did not kill her like he threatened to do to any whore of Tyrion's that he caught. Any reason  for this fact would confirm for Tyrion that Shae never meant any of the things she said to him, or she would be dead. 

2 - It fits with his self-belief that he is un-lovable. His father wins once again by proving that the person Tyrion loves could never love him (Tywin's done this once before). And proved it in the most painful way possible to Tyrion. He's in too much pain to entertain other reasons for Shae's behaviour.

 

Tyrion saying that Cersei uses "honest feelings for dishonest ends." That could be a tagline for this episode, as I think it applied to Littlefinger and Mel this episode. 

- TellSackett

Loved your whole post, TellSackett, and especially the section on Stark Power! (The George Bailey of Westeros - Hee!)

The above quote could have been the title of this episode. Very well noted. Later you go on to state that the Tyrion/Jaime scene basically proved that Jaime could not have sent "knify to kill Bran" and I agree. That, however, reminds me of Cersei's honest emotions on display when telling Catelyn about the death of her 1st born and the above quote now puts that whole scene in a new light and, for me, Cersei has just moved up to number one on the list of suspects re: who actually did "send knify to kill Bran". (and I do know that we most likely will never know the answer to that mystery)

 

"You can slay the king, lose your hand, fuck your sister and you're still the golden child" to Jamie's face. I gasped. That's cold Tyrion. - DirewolfPup

But by saying the unsayable, Tyrion actually confirmed his bond with Jaime.  He said it, and their bond survived.  Their bond, I think, grew stronger.  Even to say such a thing aloud is, in a way, to speak of the forgiveness that Tyrion has always offered Jaime, and to intimate that this is mercy that Jaime may have already earned. - Pallas

I also though Jaime's response to this brazen but true statement was telling of their bond. He did give Tyrion a sharp look and a mild verbal warning (forgot exactly what he did say, but it was gentle like his "sometimes I wonder just who's side you're on?" in the breakfast scene at WinterHell,  but a lot shorter). These two seem to have a Valerian steel bond that nothing can break (at least to this point).

 

One last point on the honest emotions/dishonest ends theme.  I believe LIttlefinger was being honest with Sansa about his grief at the death of Catelyn, but dishonest about that being the reason he killed Joffrey.  He knew it was a reason she would accept/like, but the fact is that it was Tywin who is responsible for Catelyn's death, not Joffrey, and Littlefinger would know that.  Joffery's death was a boon of sorts for Tywin and Littlefinger would know that, too.  No, PB (Petyr Baelish), as usual, has the long view in mind, but he is not going to tell Sansa anything that won't serve his ends. 

Edited May 19, 2014 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Most moving quote for me (in an episode filled with them) was the Hound - "I didn't steal it. I was just playing with it." He looked positively broken then. -- WhiteStumbler

 

But for the first time, someone listened.  It's probably already too late for that to change anything for the Hound.  That doesn't mean it didn't matter.

[Snowblack]

 

One last point on the honest emotions/dishonest ends theme.  I believe LIttlefinger was being honest with Sansa about his grief at the death of Catelyn, but dishonest about that being the reason he killed Joffrey.  He knew it was a reason she would accept/like, but the fact is that it was Tywin who is responsible for Catelyn's death, not Joffrey, and Littlefinger would know that.  Joffery's death was a boon of sorts for Tywin and Littlefinger would know that, too.  No, PB (Petyr Baelish), as usual, has the long view in mind, but he is not going to tell Sansa anything that won't serve his ends. 

 

Yes.  I need to go back and look at that scene where Joffrey is practically dancing with glee after the Red Wedding.  Was Little Finger in that scene?  I do believe he would've be heartbroken.  But I think Anothermi has it right.  There's no way that was his reason for killing Joffrey.  I couldn't tell from Sansa's face whether she believed him, but I suspect she knows better by now.

 

As for the flow of information, there's no way that she will be told the outcome of Tyrion's trial unless Tyrion dies.  The only way for her to learn whether she has any options other than staying at the Aerie is if LF is out of the picture.  And it's almost too much to hope for.  What I do dare hope for is that this romanticized vision that LF has that Sansa is his second chance at Catlyn will lead him to try to woo her, rather than raping her.  The only way I can see him letting his guard down enough for her to kill him is if she has him believing that he's charming her into falling in love with him (while still marrying Robin, of course).  I think there's at least some hope that she will end up playing the player.

[Shadowlass]

I thought poison on a blade as soon as Oberyn volunteered as Tyrion's champion. Lord, I hope he wins. Why would they create such a vivid character just to kill him off so soon, especially when Stannis and Jon Snow are boring up the place?

 

I love Tyrion and ache with sympathy for him sometimes, but at this point Oberyn is more interesting to me; I'd hate to see the character sacrificed as a vehicle to save Tyrion. That actor's kicking eight kinds of ass in the role.

 

I don't think Myrcella is in any danger if the Mountain kills Oberyn, though. If the Martells didn't punish her in retribution for the atrocities against their innocent sister and her children, they're not going to punish her for something Oberyn went into eagerly. Hell, it was basically his real reason for going to King's Landing, and I imagine that they know that. (I imagine his daily life in Dorne as sex, sex, excellent wine and food, sex, planning revenge, giving presents to his children, sex, poetry, planning revenge, wine, sex.) (He is awesome.)

 

Now, whether Tyrion/Oberyn/Ellaria/Jaime manage to convince Cersei otherwise in order to sabotage the Mountain, that's another story.

 

Sansa ... yeah, she's cautious of LF. Very cautious, considering she got her father's lack of judgment. I don't think she's buying what he's laying down at all. Honestly, if she fell in love with him, she's probably be the safest she's ever been since leaving Winterfell. But although George Martin seems to be completely ruthless about characters, I somehow can't imagine seeing either of the Stark girls in sexual situations. I mean, it just sounds so, so wrong to me, especially with someone like Littlefinger. I have to agree with TellSackett that he's starting to seem straight-up crazy.

 

I'm getting closer to wondering if the end game is Littlefinger vs. Varys for control of Westeros, with Gendry swooping back into prominence at the last.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Shadowlass

[DemosthenesKey]

I can picture that quite well, yes... Littlefinger on one side, moving an unsuspecting rook forward to be sacrificed in a rook's straightforward line - a sacrifice that opens up all his other pieces to move. A pure bishop of the North here, a knight with a robin's head beside it there... If he has a Queen, there's no sign of it yet - though Varys doesn't exactly have a strong power piece either. That's not how they play. Varys sacrifices a red-headed knight to Littlefinger, then loses his smartest piece (Tyrion), and watches mute while Littlefinger jostles the board so his pieces have better positions... Although depending on how you interpret things, Varys DOES actually have a Queen with silver hair in reserve.

I rather suspect the metaphor fell apart on me there, but regardless I agree. Littlefinger and Varys are playing against each other

[abelard]

Varys thinking of Dany as a piece in his game is really interesting, DemosthenesKey.  I've said a million times that I'm convinced Varys is double-agenting Illyrio, pretending to be on Dany's/the Targ's side only to pump Illyrio for information, but maybe Varys is truly playing both sides of the Dany thing.  However, I know that Varys hates magic, and dragons are magic, and I know that Varys hates chaos, and a Targ invasion would bring a lot of chaos.  Otoh, a Targ invasion could put to rest a lot of prior/already-happening chaos, so Varys might prefer Dany over whatever sh*tshow is happening between the 7K, and plus if Varys learns to appreciate some magic, that will be part of his "journey" on this show.  No one's going to come out of this thing exactly as they went in.

[izabella]

Varys may hate magic, but there are dragons and Whitewalkers coming (taking the scenic route!).  And there's the Lord of Light as well, although I'm not clear on whether he's actually coming or just exists now that magic is waking up again.  Varys is a realist and will want to get on board with whichever side is "best for the realm." 

 

I'm not sure which magic he would think is best for the realm.  Dragons over Whitewalkers.  Does he know about the LoL?  He must know something, since Stannis is deep in it and Varys has his little birds everywhere.

Edited May 19, 2014 by izabella

[abcfsk]

I'll echo others here and say this episode brought out a lot of great posts from y'all - I think what I wanted to say has already been said very well! That line about Cersei is about as precise and concise a summary of her character we could get. And Snowblack seems otm about Melisandre.

 

Shit has really hit the fan this season, we've not even arrived at the last two episodes, yet we've already had so many big moments (and deaths). More importantly after a few episodes that made me a bit unsure about my emotional investment this one really hit it out the park, taught me a lot about certain characters and made me feel connected again.

[MrMicrophone]

Anothermi,

I can't see Cersei sending knifey. She's the one telling Jaime that they could outfox a 10 year old. They're together, and one asks the other "what if he wakes up"? And they're coming up with plans -- that don't involve a knife. It's really not that I believe that either of them are incapable of killing Bran... Also, I think Cersei is cleverer than "here have a fancy, eye-catching dagger and kill that boy"

 

Littlefinger goes after Tywin's legacy when he kills Joffrey, in a way that killing Tywin never would. However, I prefer the much more direct, "Sansa won't be safe with Joffrey around, even after he's married."

[DirewolfPup]

Anothermi,

I can't see Cersei sending knifey. She's the one telling Jaime that they could outfox a 10 year old. They're together, and one asks the other "what if he wakes up"? And they're coming up with plans -- that don't involve a knife. It's really not that I believe that either of them are incapable of killing Bran... Also, I think Cersei is cleverer than "here have a fancy, eye-catching dagger and kill that boy"

 

Littlefinger goes after Tywin's legacy when he kills Joffrey, in a way that killing Tywin never would. However, I prefer the much more direct, "Sansa won't be safe with Joffrey around, even after he's married."  -- MrMicrophone

 

Except it was Jamie who said they could outfox a 10-year-old, not Cersei. Plus, it's pretty obvious that Cersei really really wants Tyrion dead. She may be dumb enough to use one of his daggers to stage him sending the Bran-sassin. I can't remember her reaction to Tyrion being taken prisoner at the Erie. All I remember is Jamie's attack on Ned and then Cersei being pissed that Jamie fled KL.

 

Littlefinger should know better than to think killing Joffrey would hurt the Lannisters. Keeping that tyrant in charge would hurt the Lannister legacy far more. If LF really wanted to hurt Tywin without killing him, he'd have killed Jamie. Because Jamie is all Tywin cares about really. LF's smart enough to figure that out.  LF's true revenge on Tywin will be to either kill Tywin or Jamie if he was smart, and I think he's pretty smart.

[MrMicrophone]

Dire,

"Plus, it's pretty obvious that Cersei really really wants Tyrion dead. She may be dumb enough to use one of his daggers to stage him sending the Bran-sassin."

 

Are you sure it was Tyrion's dagger? (although it certainly does explain why Cersei wasn't upset at seeing it on Ned's desk in KL) Wouldn't he have noticed it had gone missing? Also, Tyrion headed North directly after Winterfell... (were Cersei and Jaime still in Winterfell when they had that conversation? I don't think so...).

 

Cersei is clearly worried about what if Bran wakes and remembers -- but she started the conversation by saying that they could have bullied Bran into staying quiet -- she doesn't disagree when Jaime brings up outfoxing the kid. At least at that point, it was all about talking him into silence 

[90PercentGravity]

I can't recall if Tyrion ever confirmed or denied that he had the dagger at any point. LF said Tyrion won it from him in a poker game? Did Catelyn confront Tyrion with that and did he have a response?

[MrMicrophone]

90,

I think it was more or less "Who the hell would kill a child with his own dagger?" 

(not confirming it was his dagger, but also not denying it.)

 

Now that I think about it, if it was Tyrion's dagger, how does someone -- anyone, even littlefinger,

get it after he's left Winterfell? (unless he had a whore swipe it?). And the attempted murder

scene is clearly after everyone's left.