S03.E17: Enemies

[Joe Hellandback]

Enemies

The Good; Loads more Faith/Mayor stuff and some strong emotional work between Angel and Buffy. The return of 'Angelus' and a heck of a Keyser Soze. Faith's treachery revealed at last. Also some very nice comedy with Xander and an interesting scene with Angel, Faith and Joyce.

The Bad; Again quite painful to watch Faith's slide to the darkside.

Best line; A toss up between Buffy's triumphant 'Psych!' and 'Minature golf'

Character death; Only the demon. Faith still hasn't gone all the way yet, she still feels guilt about what she does. Again we see a non-dangerous demon spared by Buffy, shades of grey entering the Buffyverse rather than just humans good/demons bad. Willow bags her first vamp who's skin must be awfully soft if it can be penetrated by a pencil.

Tied up; Buffy in chains. Or is she? Angelus comments that Buffy and he never tried chains, Faith comments that bondage looks good on her.

Knocked out; Buffy and Angel (or are they?)

Women good/men bad; The women are very bad in this ep

Jeez!; Faith gutting the demon seems very graphic

Kinky dinky; Faith sitting astride Angelus and him asking her to 'wriggle'. Faith pawing at him in the Mayor's office (weirdly I think ED looks her most beautiful ever in this scene). Buffy chained up with Faith about to 'torture' her smacks mightily of S&M 'If you're a screamer, feel free'. Angel(us) flatters Joyce (love KS's little 'I still got it' look of triumph). Buffy and Angel go to see some sort of arty yet sexy French film which can't help their celibacy towards each other. Faith refers to the then topical Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky sex scandal "Close but no cigar". Faith's low cut black top really is hookerwear, her cleavage looking like it's about to explode out of it at any moment. Would Faith having sex with Angel really have robbed him off his soul?

Spoiler

To judge by what we learn on Angel (Darla, Nina, The Furies, Eve) almost certainly not

. Willow describes Faith as the 'do that girl' although she's done her own boyfriend stealing in her time. Faith and Angelus seem to think beating each other up is foreplay. Angelus refers to himself as a boy toy as Faith refers to Xander in Consequences. The Mayor once again demonstrates his father's love for Faith, concerned that Angelus will keep her out late. Oz refers to Cordy as jail-bait.

Calling Captain Subtext; Faith kissing Buffy even after they fight, even when they're holding knives at each other's throats. Interesting to note Faith's little look when 'Angelus' speaks to Joyce, it's rather guarded, she's not going to let him hurt her. Faith tells Angel she's 'keeping Buffy warm for him'. Her rant whilst Buffy is chained up has the air of a rejected lover, jealous of Buffy's boyfriend. Even now Faith and Buffy still walk arm in arm and refer to one another as girlfriend. Angelus wants the Mayor to call him 'Master'.

Spoiler

Where's Dawn? Presumably at the house when Faith and Angel arrive.When Faith has her rant against Buffy she notes 'you got the mom!' making the subtext pretty much text. Anyone want to bet that in everyone's revised memories she also says 'You got the little sister'? After all, Dawn could very easily have been Faith's sister if things had worked out differently.

Questions and observations; And now the die is cast! So what would have happened if Angel had really turned? Either Buffy defeats them, the Scoobies rescue her or Faith doesn't go through with it? When Faith is about to torture Buffy she seems to still be psyching herself up, as if she can't quite go through with it. Read a very good fanfic once where Angelus does start to torture Buffy but her screams revive memories of Faith' own childhood abuse and she rescues Buffy. When Faith goes to Angel with blood on her hands is it all a ruse or is she partly genuine? She's obviously genuinely upset at facing the demon murder scene and Buffy's reference to 'Someone's idea of a party' What would Faith do if Angelus started to suck on a passerby? Would her Slayer instincts kick in as they do in 'Who are you?' There are texts that Giles doesn't want Willow looking at, fearful of her growing magic power.

Some great acting by DB, he can effortlessly slip into Angelus now with just a look. Interesting that EDs crack up at the Mayor's line at the end was unscripted. If Angel was going to lose his soul again wouldn't the gypsy woman see the signs? Angel says it's been a while since he's been to the movies, not since his Charlton Heston fad in the 70s. From what we learn in the later seasons of Angel it's highly unlikely that Angelus would have been content to be The Mayor's lackey. Wes is more and more part of the gang and seems to be on better terms with Buff and co. Nice to see 'Waiting for Godot' mentioned in an American teen TV series. Actually if Angelus had killed Buffy we wouldn't have had a new Slayer

Spoiler

as The Gift shows

, would Faith would have come back to the good guys? Angelus calls Buffy sleepyhead which is Joyce's pet name for her. Love Buffy's Union Jack top (this is when the Spice Girls were huge). 

Spoiler

This appears to signal Cordelia's return to the Scooby gang, she's back in research mode and will be a permanent fixture in all future Scooby adventures. Faith hasn't been informed on all the details of the Ascension. Would she still love the Mayor when he's a great big snake?

Also obvious that Faith would like the Scoobies to be hers.


Marks out of 10;

6/10

[Spartan Girl]

It's weird how touching the relationship between Faith and the Mayor is. He's the closest thing she's ever had to a loving father. Which is sad and twisted all at once.

[wendyg]

"Close, but no cigar" *long* predates Clinton/Lewinsky. I don't think it's a reference at all.

[Halting Hex]

Grotesquely deficient episode that exists solely to "trick" the audience and manipulate us emotionally, probably because the writers can tell that the Mayor is a substantially inferior villain compared to what we had last season.  (I mean, it's episode 17 and Buffy and he haven't even spoken yet, ffs.)  Explain to me why, exactly, Buffy and Angel and Giles spend the entire episode lying to Willow/Xander/Cordy/Oz/Wesley, again?  Would have fucking served them right if when the Scoobies got to the mansion during the climactic fight, one of them had pulled out a crossbow and dusted "Angelus" before he can kill again. (For that matter, why doesn't Giles go with them to prevent something like from happening?)

And Angel punching Xander is a cheap sop to the Bangel fans who had a hate-on for Xander.  Don't give me any crap about how Angel's "saving Xander's life" from a homicidal Faith; ""Angel"" (Angel-pretending-to-be-Angelus-but-"pretending"-to-be-Angel) could easily have sent Xander back to the Library to alert the Scoobs without blowing either his or Faith's cover.  And if Faith really did want to kill Xander for no reason, what stops her once Angel leaves Xander unconscious and helpless?

That said, I do think David does a nice job being just subtly "off" so that the con is obvious on rewatch.  And I like that part of Angel's performance as ""Angel"" is doing things like complimenting Joyce's hair, which he never does in real life.  Basically, he's acknowledging that ordinary civility is beyond his normal Brood Boy self, and is only something he would be doing as part of a vampire conning his prey.  Or, to quote myself years ago, "Angel knows he's an asshole.  Which? Is.Awesome."

(And it's another example of how soulless vampires don't really see humans as anything but food, Spike's whining to Joyce over the cocoa in Lovers Walk aside.  Which, the part where Spike was going to kill Joyce just to piss off Angel made clear anyhow, but still.)

But I'm still so furious at Buffy for conscripting Willow into a round of "oh, Will, Faith was nearly kissing Angel, I'm so WORRIED!" bullshit faux-angst when she knows it's all an act on Angel's part.  Go fuck yourself, Buffy.  Way to abuse your "best friend" when she's being empathetic for you. 

(And I'm not too thrilled with Willow's "I too know the love of a taciturn man", which is basically the writer acknowledging that Willoz is a cheap copy of Bangel.  Guy's quiet, guy's part monster, guy uses too much hair product, we get it.  I grant you, Angel doesn't have a van, but still.  I'm not sure we need to be spotlighting the lack of creativity, here.)

Nice to see the late, great Michael Ansara as Magey McEcho, but he's wasted here.  Check out Star Trek's "Day of the Dove" or The Outer Limits's "Demon in a Glass Hand" instead.

Yes, yes, lesbian subtext, but that's in every episode with Faith.  And given that the kiss was supposed to be on the lips, but Joss chickened out after the network objected, even more of a reason to give this crap the skip it deserves.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Grotesquely deficient episode that exists solely to "trick" the audience and manipulate us emotionally, probably because the writers can tell that the Mayor is a substantially inferior villain compared to what we had last season.  (I mean, it's episode 17 and Buffy and he haven't even spoken yet, ffs.)  Explain to me why, exactly, Buffy and Angel and Giles spend the entire episode lying to Willow/Xander/Cordy/Oz/Wesley, again?  Would have fucking served them right if when the Scoobies got to the mansion during the climactic fight, one of them had pulled out a crossbow and dusted "Angelus" before he can kill again. (For that matter, why doesn't Giles go with them to prevent something like from happening?)

Exactly. It's one of those "cool twists" which absolutely fall apart on second viewing or even if one starts thinking about the mechanics of their plot a little more. In addition to everything you said it hinges on the convenient coincidence of the Mayor just happening to hire some mage who owes a favour to Giles and informs Giles first. How would this mage even know Angel was an ally of Giles anyway and why does Giles have such shady friends who are never mentioned again? Why does the Mayor think Angel would cooperate with him? Why isn't he suspicious that Angel isn't itching to kill someone - as we saw him do when he actually did lose his soul?

And honestly, I have always found the Mayor very overrated. He is invulnerable? Cut him to pieces and throw him in the sea, problem solved. And I never understood why Faith immediately assumed that he was more trustworthy than all other authority figures who had failed her.

[Halting Hex]

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the convenient coincidence of the Mayor just happening to hire some mage who owes a favour to Giles and informs Giles first

Or the equally-ridiculous alternative, that Giles somehow found out about the Mayor's plans and was able send his never-before-mentioned demonic pal to fill the job opening. 

I suppose you might hypothesize that the Mayor had reached out to Ethan Rayne (perhaps Mr. Trick left his phone number behind before he got slayed?) and Ethan demurred, saying that soul-removal was beyond him but passed the Mayor the name of McEcho, who was another pal of the gang's from the old "gay sex and other dark arts" orgy days.  (I mean, who's to say that Eyghon was the only one, right?)  And then Ethan let his Twu Wuv, Giles, in on it, but all of that may qualify as a world record for fanwanking.

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the Mayor very overrated. He is invulnerable? Cut him to pieces and throw him in the sea, problem solved.

Well, the pieces would knit themselves back together, as we saw in Bad Girls, when Vincent gave him the literal splitting headache, to no effect.  But the town is full of cemeteries and crypts and tombs.  Seal him up in one of those for a few decades, and see how he likes it.

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And I never understood why Faith immediately assumed that he was more trustworthy than all other authority figures who had failed her.

Fuck, how have I seen this show dozens of times over the past decades and never questioned why Faith goes from being completely burnt by Gwendolyn Post, Mrs. to being Hizzoner's eager and trusting helper for the rest of the season?  And this despite Wilkins making an IMO OOC threat to kill her in this episode. ("Replacing Mr. Trick was chore enough.") Wow. I must be thick to have missed the lack of continuity there.

That must have been some PlayStation™.  I'm just saying.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

50 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the Mayor very overrated. He is invulnerable? Cut him to pieces and throw him in the sea, problem solved.

Well, the pieces would knit themselves back together, as we saw in Bad Girls, when Vincent gave him the literal splitting headache, to no effect.  But the town is full of cemeteries and crypts and tombs.  Seal him up in one of those for a few decades, and see how he likes it.

Spoiler

In an episode of Angel (ugh, can't remember the title, it's a season one episode), there was a guy who could disassemble pieces of his body, which he did to stalk someone (as in, have his eyeball watch her while he was miles away). They ended up causing him to come apart and then they put the pieces in separate boxes so he couldn't reassemble (much like the Judge).

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 3:10 PM, Spartan Girl said:

It's weird how touching the relationship between Faith and the Mayor is. He's the closest thing she's ever had to a loving father. Which is sad and twisted all at once.

Absolutely, when he

Spoiler

turns up in season 7 you're actually glad to see him for a moment, it's nice to see them reunited. 

Once again I think a great show relies on the quality of its' villains, make them just as interesting as the heroes. 

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:13 AM, wendyg said:

"Close, but no cigar" *long* predates Clinton/Lewinsky. I don't think it's a reference at all.

Looking it up, yes you're right but I'd never heard it before this ep. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 10:08 AM, Halting Hex said:

Grotesquely deficient episode that exists solely to "trick" the audience and manipulate us emotionally, probably because the writers can tell that the Mayor is a substantially inferior villain compared to what we had last season.  (I mean, it's episode 17 and Buffy and he haven't even spoken yet, ffs.)  Explain to me why, exactly, Buffy and Angel and Giles spend the entire episode lying to Willow/Xander/Cordy/Oz/Wesley, again?  Would have fucking served them right if when the Scoobies got to the mansion during the climactic fight, one of them had pulled out a crossbow and dusted "Angelus" before he can kill again. (For that matter, why doesn't Giles go with them to prevent something like from happening?)

And Angel punching Xander is a cheap sop to the Bangel fans who had a hate-on for Xander.  Don't give me any crap about how Angel's "saving Xander's life" from a homicidal Faith; ""Angel"" (Angel-pretending-to-be-Angelus-but-"pretending"-to-be-Angel) could easily have sent Xander back to the Library to alert the Scoobs without blowing either his or Faith's cover.  And if Faith really did want to kill Xander for no reason, what stops her once Angel leaves Xander unconscious and helpless?

That said, I do think David does a nice job being just subtly "off" so that the con is obvious on rewatch.  And I like that part of Angel's performance as ""Angel"" is doing things like complimenting Joyce's hair, which he never does in real life.  Basically, he's acknowledging that ordinary civility is beyond his normal Brood Boy self, and is only something he would be doing as part of a vampire conning his prey.  Or, to quote myself years ago, "Angel knows he's an asshole.  Which? Is.Awesome."

(And it's another example of how soulless vampires don't really see humans as anything but food, Spike's whining to Joyce over the cocoa in Lovers Walk aside.  Which, the part where Spike was going to kill Joyce just to piss off Angel made clear anyhow, but still.)

But I'm still so furious at Buffy for conscripting Willow into a round of "oh, Will, Faith was nearly kissing Angel, I'm so WORRIED!" bullshit faux-angst when she knows it's all an act on Angel's part.  Go fuck yourself, Buffy.  Way to abuse your "best friend" when she's being empathetic for you. 

(And I'm not too thrilled with Willow's "I too know the love of a taciturn man", which is basically the writer acknowledging that Willoz is a cheap copy of Bangel.  Guy's quiet, guy's part monster, guy uses too much hair product, we get it.  I grant you, Angel doesn't have a van, but still.  I'm not sure we need to be spotlighting the lack of creativity, here.)

Nice to see the late, great Michael Ansara as Magey McEcho, but he's wasted here.  Check out Star Trek's "Day of the Dove" or The Outer Limits's "Demon in a Glass Hand" instead.

Yes, yes, lesbian subtext, but that's in every episode with Faith.  And given that the kiss was supposed to be on the lips, but Joss chickened out after the network objected, even more of a reason to give this crap the skip it deserves.

 

Love 'Demon with a Glass Hand', the only ep of the old Outer Limits which links in directly to the new series, The Quality of Mercy/Light Brigade. I guess Buffy and Giles didn't tell everyone else in case they start acting suspiciously around Faith.

I don't think Spike was really going to harm Joyce, I think he loved her too much, he was just teasing Angel. Equally I'm not sure Faith wants to kill Xander, it was just a moment of madness on her part. 

 I adore Willow's line about Oz, I don't think he's a clone of Angel in any way but they do seem to have a little kinship, think of the scene in Dopplegangland. 

 Darn, why couldn't we have some Fuffy lip smacking? Guess we'll have to wait until season 5. Interestingly Adam Kaufman (Parker Abrams) had one of the first gay kisses on TV in Dawson's Creek. 

16 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Exactly. It's one of those "cool twists" which absolutely fall apart on second viewing or even if one starts thinking about the mechanics of their plot a little more. In addition to everything you said it hinges on the convenient coincidence of the Mayor just happening to hire some mage who owes a favour to Giles and informs Giles first. How would this mage even know Angel was an ally of Giles anyway and why does Giles have such shady friends who are never mentioned again? Why does the Mayor think Angel would cooperate with him? Why isn't he suspicious that Angel isn't itching to kill someone - as we saw him do when he actually did lose his soul?

And honestly, I have always found the Mayor very overrated. He is invulnerable? Cut him to pieces and throw him in the sea, problem solved. And I never understood why Faith immediately assumed that he was more trustworthy than all other authority figures who had failed her.

True but you figure Buffy would have worked it out, she's a smart cookie. You're right about the Mayor although maybe he had other powers (not to mention bodyguards) that made that impractical. As for Faith and the Mayor you just have to look at their relationship, him showering her with praise and gifts and not thinking of her in a sexual manner, compared to how she's been treated before?

Edited July 16, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Or the equally-ridiculous alternative, that Giles somehow found out about the Mayor's plans and was able send his never-before-mentioned demonic pal to fill the job opening. 

I suppose you might hypothesize that the Mayor had reached out to Ethan Rayne (perhaps Mr. Trick left his phone number behind before he got slayed?) and Ethan demurred, saying that soul-removal was beyond him but passed the Mayor the name of McEcho, who was another pal of the gang's from the old "gay sex and other dark arts" orgy days.  (I mean, who's to say that Eyghon was the only one, right?)  And then Ethan let his Twu Wuv, Giles, in on it, but all of that may qualify as a world record for fanwanking.

Well, the pieces would knit themselves back together, as we saw in Bad Girls, when Vincent gave him the literal splitting headache, to no effect.  But the town is full of cemeteries and crypts and tombs.  Seal him up in one of those for a few decades, and see how he likes it.

Fuck, how have I seen this show dozens of times over the past decades and never questioned why Faith goes from being completely burnt by Gwendolyn Post, Mrs. to being Hizzoner's eager and trusting helper for the rest of the season?  And this despite Wilkins making an IMO OOC threat to kill her in this episode. ("Replacing Mr. Trick was chore enough.") Wow. I must be thick to have missed the lack of continuity there.

That must have been some PlayStation™.  I'm just saying.

Yes, I always figured there was more to the Mage and Giles, perhaps the council or the gypsy woman or the coven etc saw the signs? Not sure about Githan although I could see it, think of the

Spoiler

bar scene in A New Man. Especially when you think of the scene they cut out?

You have to figure that The Mayor is honest with her, she knows what he is (although will she ever be filled in as to what he will become?).  

13 hours ago, illdoc said:

  Hide contents

In an episode of Angel (ugh, can't remember the title, it's a season one episode), there was a guy who could disassemble pieces of his body, which he did to stalk someone (as in, have his eyeball watch her while he was miles away). They ended up causing him to come apart and then they put the pieces in separate boxes so he couldn't reassemble (much like the Judge).

'I Fall To Pieces' but he didn't have the resources or abilities the Mayor did. 

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Willow: Graduation day. There's a big scary un-fun. At least Angel's
not bad, though. That's good, right?

Xander: Yes, I feel so much better knowing that he broke my face in
a good way. It's a good bruise.

Buffy: (sad) He was only acting, Xander. It was just an act.

Quote

Angel: I know how hard it was for you.

Buffy: I really doubt that.

Angel: Is there anything I can do to make it better?

Buffy: Look, I know you only did what I asked. And we, we got what
we wanted.

Angel: I never wanted it to go that far.

Buffy: I know that. It's not even a question of that. It's just,
after ... I need a little bit of a break. Please. (walks away)

Angel: You still my girl?

Buffy: Always. (leaves)

As I understand it, Buffy views Angel's making out with Faith as far worse crime than attacking her supposed friend even though both things were "just an act". She basically tells Xander to get over it and doesn't even mention his name in her conversation with Angel. Yes, Xander's only got bruises on his face due to writer's incompetence, but nevertheless... Anyway, "nice" friends you got there, Xander Harris. 

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy: (sad) He was only acting, Xander. It was just an act.

 

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy: Look, I know you only did what I asked

So…Buffy asked Angel to be "Angelus" and punch Xander in the face, is that it?  Okay, probably not explicitly, but she doesn't seem terribly upset about Angel's going "off-script" here.

And given that Buffy lies to Willow about her "omg, I'm so worried! Angel was nearly kissing Faith!" faux-angst, I don't really see her treating either of her friends very well in this episode.

[lembergwatcher]

12 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

she doesn't seem terribly upset about Angel's going "off-script" here

Of course, she doesn't. Xander is not her boyfriend, after all.
"Buffy, I feel that when it comes to Angel, you can't see straight". - Willow in Revelations.
 

15 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

And given that Buffy lies to Willow about her "omg, I'm so worried! Angel was nearly kissing Faith!" faux-angst, I don't really see her treating either of her friends very well in this episode

As Buffy herself put it in Homecoming: "They wouldn't understand".

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:13 PM, lembergwatcher said:

As I understand it, Buffy views Angel's making out with Faith as far worse crime than attacking her supposed friend even though both things were "just an act". She basically tells Xander to get over it and doesn't even mention his name in her conversation with Angel. Yes, Xander's only got bruises on his face due to writer's incompetence, but nevertheless... Anyway, "nice" friends you got there, Xander Harris. 

Faith doesn't attack Xander, that's Angel keeping his cover. Remember she gets bashed up too. Plus Xander gets hit so much he's practically Joxer (a lot of parelells between the 2). 

[lembergwatcher]

47 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

that's Angel keeping his cover

Can this sorry excuse for James Bond keep his, uhm, cover in a less violent way? The one that doesn't include leaving Xander lying alone on the city street at night, with possible head trauma, like an easy prey for Sunnydale's nighttime populace?

 

53 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Plus Xander gets hit so much

Yeah. That makes Xander's fans feel so much better, He gets hit so much - let's leave him unconscious and vulnerable to any vamp's attack, and see what will happen.

[illdoc]

9 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

like an easy prey for Sunnydale's nighttime populace?

Of course, Xander spends every Christmas eve, sleeping outside (even after he knows about the vampires), and has apparently never been bitten, so I guess he's not "tasty" enough for them.

[lembergwatcher]

47 minutes ago, illdoc said:

I guess he's not "tasty" enough for them.

Probably. But why take the risk?

OTOH apart from absence on the vampires' menu there are few more odd things about Xander.

Spoiler

He can turn from useless part of the group to the Key Guy in one fell swoop. He rides bicycle and fights Indian warriors while being seriously ill. And he doesn't even faint after being hammered on the head.

What if he isn't exactly human?

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, illdoc said:

Of course, Xander spends every Christmas eve, sleeping outside (even after he knows about the vampires), and has apparently never been bitten, so I guess he's not "tasty" enough for them.

To be fair, the vampires don't seem to prowl residential neighborhoods that often, since there's no guarantee prey will be available as it is near the Bronze, and there's that pesky "invitation" issue.  The Three chase Buffy back to 1630 Revello in Angel, and "Fork Guy" was using Weatherly Park as a hunting ground in Teacher's Pet, but that still seems rather different from the evil undead being all "let's check the Harris place, maybe the kid's camped out in back tonight", IMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Can this sorry excuse for James Bond keep his, uhm, cover in a less violent way? The one that doesn't include leaving Xander lying alone on the city street at night, with possible head trauma, like an easy prey for Sunnydale's nighttime populace?

 

Yeah. That makes Xander's fans feel so much better, He gets hit so much - let's leave him unconscious and vulnerable to any vamp's attack, and see what will happen.

But that saved him from possible attack from Faith plus he's in a main street, he'll be alright. It also confirms Faith's belief in him. 

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:13 PM, illdoc said:

Of course, Xander spends every Christmas eve, sleeping outside (even after he knows about the vampires), and has apparently never been bitten, so I guess he's not "tasty" enough for them.

He and 

Spoiler

Tara

are the only Scoobs who never get bitten. 

[Halting Hex]

Oz was never bitten by a vampire.  Cousin Jordy yes, vampires no.

Spoiler

And when was Anya bitten?  Mort busts her shoulder in Real Me, but he doesn't bite her.  And the Bringer "only" hacks her to death.

[lembergwatcher]

33 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But that saved him from possible attack from Faith plus he's in a main street, he'll be alright. It also confirms Faith's belief in him.

It's good there are still people out there who believe Angel intended to "save" Xander from Faith. Don't you think there were some other ways to both "save" the boy and confirm Faith's belief? Like sending Xander to the library or elsewhere? What if Faith tried to finish him off?
I take it main street's sidewalk is soaked with holy water...

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, lembergwatcher said:

It's good there are still people out there who believe Angel intended to "save" Xander from Faith. Don't you think there were some other ways to both "save" the boy and confirm Faith's belief? Like sending Xander to the library or elsewhere? What if Faith tried to finish him off?
I take it main street's sidewalk is soaked with holy water...

Give him a break, he was improvising. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:12 PM, Halting Hex said:

Oz was never bitten by a vampire.  Cousin Jordy yes, vampires no.

  Hide contents

And when was Anya bitten?  Mort busts her shoulder in Real Me, but he doesn't bite her.  And the Bringer "only" hacks her to death.

Let's see;

Spoiler

Buffy; The Master, Angel, Dracula

Willow; Harmony

Giles; The Draccy babes

Angel; Darla

Riley; vampwhores

Dawn; Justin

Anya; never see it but she used to date Dracula? 

Cordelia; by Spike

Spike; by Dru

Faith; by Angelus

Andrew; by Spike

Although not a Scooby, Joyce by Darla and possibly Dracula?

So it's actually Xander, Tara and Oz (although Oz was bitten by a werewolf) with Anya unconfirmed.  

Was Anya ever tied up? If not another thing she shares with Tara?

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Give him a break, he was improvising.

Then Xander should have staked Captain Forehead so we would call it "improvising" too.

[Halting Hex]

When was

Spoiler

Cordelia bitten by Spike?  They never actually meet before In the Dark (Spike doesn't get into that utility closet in School Hard; CC doesn't step into the church in What's My Line, Part 2 when Xander's luring Wormy Norman into the hall) and all he does there is admire her hair.  

I didn't check the transcript for You're Welcome, but as he's all soul-having by then, I'd be surprised.

And I guess Anya/Dracula is possible

, but that's a long way from proven, I'd say.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Melancholy]

Cordelia 

Spoiler

Was bitten by Spike in You’re Welcome Lindsay posing as Doyle said she was evil. Spike was biting her to test that because he advanced new mythology that evil people have different tasting blood. It was very stupid  

[Halting Hex]

Man, it'a amazing how little recall I have of that sort of thing.  I mean, I could tell you the basic plot of that episode, but that's about all.

Spoiler

All I remember was being angry that Angel and Wesley apparently had never visited Cordy's hospital room, surprised that the show was disposing of Lindsay so easily (I'd thought he was in the season for a longer haul), rolling my eyes at Angel believing that Cordy was dead just because somebody gave him a phone call, and admiring the fuck out of Cordelia's boobs.  While wondering why she was wearing a shirt unbuttoned to her navel, exactly.  Was that her final mission that TPTB pulled her out of her coma for?

"No, I can't die, not yet!  I need Angel to see my boobies, one last time!  Not without my boobies!"

I mean, lovely as always.  But button up, honestly.

This show, I spent years playing a game based on recognizing specific lines of dialogue from memory and can quote entire speeches at the drop of a hat.  That show, I have four seasons' worth of DVDs that I don't think I've ever watched, and I skipped at least half of the final season and haven't seen those episodes that I did watch since '03/'04.  

Oh, well, to each their own.  And thanks for filling in the gap.

Spoiler

Of course, we don't need to cite the other series to find CC being bitten, as Vamps Xander and Willow make a memorable meal of her in The Wish.  That may have been unmade, but I still count it as having been bitten, however temporarily.  But again, JMO.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

Slightly Off-Topic for this forum, but, can anyone find the Angel "topic"? Forum has been vaulted & marked "read-only", but it doesn't have the link to where the Angel "topic" is, and the show isn't listed in the "Other A Shows" (which is where I think "topics" live).

[Pallas]

Replying in Angel (character) topic here.

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Man, it'a amazing how little recall I have of that sort of thing.  I mean, I could tell you the basic plot of that episode, but that's about all.

  Hide contents

All I remember was being angry that Angel and Wesley apparently had never visited Cordy's hospital room, surprised that the show was disposing of Lindsay so easily (I'd thought he was in the season for a longer haul), rolling my eyes at Angel believing that Cordy was dead just because somebody gave him a phone call, and admiring the fuck out of Cordelia's boobs.  While wondering why she was wearing a shirt unbuttoned to her navel, exactly.  Was that her final mission that TPTB pulled her out of her coma for?

"No, I can't die, not yet!  I need Angel to see my boobies, one last time!  Not without my boobies!"

I mean, lovely as always.  But button up, honestly.

This show, I spent years playing a game based on recognizing specific lines of dialogue from memory and can quote entire speeches at the drop of a hat.  That show, I have four seasons' worth of DVDs that I don't think I've ever watched, and I skipped at least half of the final season and haven't seen those episodes that I did watch since '03/'04.  

Oh, well, to each their own.  And thanks for filling in the gap.

  Hide contents

Of course, we don't need to cite the other series to find CC being bitten, as Vamps Xander and Willow make a memorable meal of her in The Wish.  That may have been unmade, but I still count it as having been bitten, however temporarily.  But again, JMO.

True but I don't count The Wish for stats. Plus if you've got'em, flaunt'em. Joss doesn't mind giving us cheesecake from both sexes. 

[Halting Hex]

So Liam Duke was carried away by the momentum of this one, even if he was somewhat suspicious of "Angelus 3.0" right from the start.  Don't know if he was picking up the subtleties of David's performance, or if he just sensed it would be too soon for the show to go back to that particular well.  (Although, as Liam notes, if you're going to do it this year, episode 3.17 would be appropriate, since 2.17 was Angel at his most nefarious, in Passion.  And Jenny is still somewhat with us, in spirit, via the First Evil in Amends.)

Still, Liam enjoyed it, as I myself did on first watch.  I just wonder how well this one holds up on repeat viewings for him…or will the cracks start to show, as detailed in this thread.

Liam also thought that Willow's line about Faith's "standards" for a man (wrt to her trying to seduce Angel) was a shot a Xander, since after all if Faith will sleep with anyone, what does that say about X?  But I can't see it like that…yes, Willow resents the Xaith hookup, but I don't think she's trying to insult Xander on account of it, given how angry she was at Faith's hurting him later in Consequences.  If anything, I'd say that her mounting disdain for Faith (whom Willow quite liked, once upon a time) shows Willow's continuing attachment to Xander (and Buffy), the lack of overt Xillow in the most recent episodes aside.  But JMO.

And one thing I noticed this time: we've got another candidate for the "hey, you hit the wrong part of that line, dude" pile, with David giving us a "second best" climax that comes out sounding more "second best" than the "second best" it should properly be.  I mean, not that he hugely stressed it in either direction (Angel is dropping the manic "Angelus" mask and returning to his normal stoicism here), but there was definitely more "best" than "second" in that reading, and it really should be the other way around.

Oh, well.  Even Alyson Hannigan mispronounced "hijinks" as "hijinks" in Prophecy Girl.  It happens to the best of us, I suppose.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:21 AM, Halting Hex said:

So Liam Duke was carried away by the momentum of this one, even if he was somewhat suspicious of "Angelus 3.0" right from the start.  Don't know if he was picking up the subtleties of David's performance, or if he just sensed it would be too soon for the show to go back to that particular well.  (Although, as Liam notes, if you're going to do it this year, episode 3.17 would be appropriate, since 2.17 was Angel at his most nefarious, in Passion.  And Jenny is still somewhat with us, in spirit, via the First Evil in Amends.)

Still, Liam enjoyed it, as I myself did on first watch.  I just wonder how well this one holds up on repeat viewings for him…or will the cracks start to show, as detailed in this thread.

Liam also thought that Willow's line about Faith's "standards" for a man (wrt to her trying to seduce Angel) was a shot a Xander, since after all if Faith will sleep with anyone, what does that say about X?  But I can't see it like that…yes, Willow resents the Xaith hookup, but I don't think she's trying to insult Xander on account of it, given how angry she was at Faith's hurting him later in Consequences.  If anything, I'd say that her mounting disdain for Faith (whom Willow quite liked, once upon a time) shows Willow's continuing attachment to Xander (and Buffy), the lack of overt Xillow in the most recent episodes aside.  But JMO.

And one thing I noticed this time: we've got another candidate for the "hey, you hit the wrong part of that line, dude" pile, with David giving us a "second best" climax that comes out sounding more "second best" than the "second best" it should properly be.  I mean, not that he hugely stressed it in either direction (Angel is dropping the manic "Angelus" mask and returning to his normal stoicism here), but there was definitely more "best" than "second" in that reading, and it really should be the other way around.

Oh, well.  Even Alyson Hannigan mispronounced "hijinks" as "hijinks" in Prophecy Girl.  It happens to the best of us, I suppose.

I'm off sick at the moment so just using the opportunity to catch up on After Show reacts, then I'll do Liam and then We Watch Whedon. Van seems to have tailed off at the moment. 

[lembergwatcher]

Honestly, I don't know what annoys me the most regarding this ep: Angel's punch, Buffy's reaction to it or B/A/G "perfect" decision to act behind everyone's back. Or Buffy's (and fandom's) hypocrisy considering Angel's actions.

First, I don't quite buy the whole "Angel had no other choice because he tried to convince Faith he was evil" bullshit since Giles' old pal and his "light show" were, you know, effective and pretty convincing. Also I don't understand why should Faith think Angel was faking it purely on account of him not killing and maiming Xander? Faith wasn't the smartest Slayer, after all. OTOH, according to Angel's fans "logic", Captain Forehead shouldn't have stopped Faith in case she tried to finish off unconscious Xander because, you know, he had to convince the ravenhead Slayer he was eeeevil at all cost. So letting Xander die was an acceptable price for exposing Faith and the Mayor, then?

Second, I dunno whether to laugh or cry whenever Angel's apologists say the Deadboy had no intention of killing Xander. "Had no intention of killing" doesn't equate "couldn't have killed". Since vamps are supposed to be much stronger than their human counterparts, Angel's punch could've easily been fatal for Xander. Yes, the boy ended up with a good bruise and not a head injury, but that's was solely due to writers who wanted Forehead to have his petty revenge with no dire consequences.

Third. Those of you who think Angel was trying to "save" the guy and are ok with Buffy's "it was just an act" bullshit of a reaction, consider this. What if Angel and Faith came across someone else that night? Willow or Giles? Cordy? Joyce? Oz? Do you believe even for a second Angel would have done what he did after encountering Xander? And even if he punched Willow or Joyce, because of, you know, Faith, would you cheer him? Would Buffy just shrug it off and say "it was just an act"? Somehow I doubt it.      

Buffy's (and the other Scoobs') reaction to Angel's attack on Xander is not only appaling. It kinda deconstructs the whole "Buffy is such a wonderful friend to Xander" myth. The fact that Buffy is more concerned with Angel paying "too much attention" to Faith than with her supposed best friend's possible death or serious injury proves that she doesn't give a fuck about Xander.

Spoiler

And while attempt on Angel's (un)life in GD 1 can be a perfect reason for taking human's life,

a violent act against Xander which could have had fatal consequences doesn't even deserve a condemnation.

Anyway, Buffy, Willow, Giles and the rest should have count themselves lucky Xander didn't draw appropriate conclusions and leave for his road trip several months earlier.

Spoiler

Because if Buffy/Giles/Angel had to plan the final confrontation with the Mayor on Graduation Day, it would've ended just as "brilliantly" as the whole Box of Gavrok deal in Choices with most of Class '99 either killed or captured.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

On 2/4/2020 at 5:23 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy, Willow, Giles and the rest should have count themselves lucky Xander didn't draw appropriate conclusions and leave for his road trip several months earlier.

Well, there is the matter of actually graduating.  Unless Xander can put his nose to the grindstone and bang out a G.E.D., leaving school instead of finishing it might impair his future prospects.  I mean, for all we know, even

Spoiler

the phone-sex line

might want to see some paper, down the road.

[lembergwatcher]

Some of those who drop out of school before graduation have more or less decent life. 

Spoiler

Besides, studying Shakespeare during Miss Murray's classes hardly helped Xander in his post-school employment.

Alright, I'll rephrase: Buffy, Willow, Giles and the rest should have count themselves lucky Xander didn't draw appropriate conclusions and chose some other activity instead of trying to help people who do not deserve it. 

Spoiler

And I don't exaggerate when I say "lucky". Because if it wasn't for Xander, the Battle of Graduation Day would've ended exactly as B/G "brilliant" attempt to steal the Box of Gavrok. 

 

[Halting Hex]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Besides, studying Shakespeare during Miss Murray's classes

Spoiler

hardly helped Xander in his post-school employment.

 

Ha!  Have you forgotten the Shakespeare classic,

Spoiler

Gay Boys in Bondage?  (Excerpted in the Monty Python's Flying Circus episode, "The War Against Pornography")  

You know Xander put that to good use

Spoiler

on the phone-sex line.  Can't just be going "Romeo, O Romeo…yes, yes, harder, Romeo!" all day long, you know.

Even

Spoiler

Spike

knows the benefits of Shakespeare;  

Spoiler

see his quoting of Henry V in The Gift.  ("We few, we band of buggered.")  He may be a monster, but he knows how appeals to soldier on even after being viciously topped (we're talking Richard Gere [allegedly] sending boys to the hospital) stir the hearts of men.

There's a reason the Bard of Avon is such an immortal, after all.

[lembergwatcher]

13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Even

  Hide contents

Spike

knows the benefits of Shakespeare;  

  Hide contents

see his quoting of Henry V in The Gift.  

I know. 

Spoiler

And he's also familiar with classical languages as can be seen in Empty Places. Then again Spikey seemingly came from well-to-do family and thus had a decent education. Better one than the SHS can provide.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I know. 

  Hide contents

And he's also familiar with classical languages as can be seen in Empty Places. Then again Spikey seemingly came from well-to-do family and thus had a decent education. Better one than the SHS can provide.

 

Maybe he was 'head boy'?

Edited May 22, 2020 by Joe Hellandback
adding w

[Halting Hex]

On 12/28/2018 at 10:03 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Let's see;

  Hide contents

Buffy; The Master, Angel, Dracula

Willow; Harmony

Giles; The Draccy babes

Angel; Darla

Riley; vampwhores and Sandy;  he cuts it short by dusting her, but the fangs went in.  (Which is why he wears a turtleneck in the tag.)

Dawn; Justin

Anya; never see it but she used to date Dracula? 

Cordelia; by Spike

Spike; by Dru

Faith; by Angelus

Andrew; by Spike

Although not a Scooby, Joyce by Darla and possibly Dracula?

So it's actually Xander, Tara and Oz (although Oz was bitten by a werewolf) with Anya unconfirmed.  

Was Anya ever tied up? If not another thing she shares with Tara?

I edited the list in the spoiler, ^ above.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

MAYOR: I mean, replacing Mr. Trick was chore enough.

Say huh?  Dickie, Faith was at your door before you even knew Trick was dead.  She volunteered for the job less than a minute later.

I don't usually stand up for HR departments (I'm a person, not a fucking "resource", thank you!) but I think even our local labor lawyer would agree: hiring is generally a bit tougher than that.

You lazy bastard.

[lembergwatcher]

On 6/14/2021 at 8:43 PM, Halting Hex said:

You lazy bastard.

Of course he's a lazy bastard.

If Dickie wasn't that lazy, he would've have used his authority as a Mayor, would've have used every connection possible to make Buffy's life and the lives of her friends a living hell. He didn't even have to send his supernatural shock troops, Wilkins' political power alone was enough.

Like, for example, you don't have to rely on a bunch of stupid vamps (like in previous ep) to have Mr. Giles deported from the US once and for all.

But laziness is a disease, I know...

[Halting Hex]

Quote

XANDER:  You know how some people hate to say "I told you so"?  Not me.  Angel's back, in the really bad sense and…I told you so.

So, wait.  Last episode, Buffy and Xander and Giles were devastated at the thought that Willow had been killed and now, like a week later (if that) Buffy and Giles are perfectly fine letting Xander and Willow think that Angel is "back"?  You know, what's pretty much been one of their worst nightmares?  Never mind the punch, it's that scene above (where Xander has to tell Willow the "news") that's pissing me off.

Fuck you, Buffy.  Fuck you, Giles.  (And of course, fuck you, Angel, but that's about other things besides this, and I have different standards for him.)  How dare you scare your friends that way? ("Friends"?  I don't want to break out the sarcastic quotes, but…)

Hell, I'm even angry on Cordelia's behalf.  She made it clear in Revelations that she isn't over Season 2, either. 

Spoiler

And Eternity will show her ongoing issues about it.

It's just plain shitty writing disrespectful, I'm sorry.

[lembergwatcher]

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Never mind the punch, it's that scene above (where Xander has to tell Willow the "news") that's pissing me off.

I'm very disappointed with Xillow's reaction on Buffy's non-explanation regarding the punch and the whole fake Angelus thing ("It was just an act"). Unfortunately Xander decided against setting Crawford Street mansion on fire... 

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Fuck you, Buffy.  Fuck you, Giles.  (And of course, fuck you, Angel, but that's about other things besides this, and I have different standards for him.)

Those fucks are well-deserved. Although Xander-haters among the fandom needed some big Xander humiliation and the writers decided to give them what they wanted. Pandering to fans is a bad thing, I know.

[Gigi43]

We never did find out how long Xander was knocked for. Even 3 minutes out on the streets of Sunnydale at night could be deadly. 

 

Hey everyone, another vampire came and ate Xander but it was all an act. Accidents happen.

 

What's important is that this hurt Buffy, who planned it. Did she really not think Angel would have to kiss Faith to sell it? But she's secretly smart and got great SAT marks. Sure. 

 

[Halting Hex]

Watching reactors have various freakouts about the return of "Angelus" really emphasizes what a step up that would be.  Whether they think it's a poor dramatic choice to go back to that plot or if they wonder how it could be undone (again) or if they're just flat-out terrified on Buffy's and the gang's behalf, it's clear that "Angel loses That Pesky Soul…again" is news of a much higher order than "The Mayor is going to Ascend (whatever that means) a few weeks down the road".

Which, IMO, just underscores Wilkins's inadequacy as a Big Bad.  We're three-quarters of the way through the season, already.  By this point, the Master had nearly opened the Hellmouth, and had fooled Buffy with a fake Anointed One ("Pork and Beans" Borba) and thus gained "a powerful warrior" who was destined to play a role in a major upcoming prophecy.  At this point in S2, Collin had nearly resurrected the Master, Spike had cured Drusilla and nearly killed Angel, Dru had unleashed a nearly unstoppable planet-killing demon, and Angel had killed Enyos and Theresa and Jenny and many others and had run some serious head games on Buffy.  What has Dickie done, besides dither?

Become unkillable?  That's nice.  Why is Buffy caring, exactly?

Make me worry, show.  This is just boring, honestly.  Faith's done more damage to Wilkins (killing Finch, slaying Mr. Trick) than the Mayor has done to the White Hats.  No wonder we're dusting off last season's villains.  What's next, Mama Bezoar's sister comes seeking revenge?

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

What has Dickie done, besides dither?

The thing is Dickie doesn't have to do anything at this point. He has his Apocalypse scheduled for a particular time (summer of '99), right? As long as Buffy does her job, takes good care of Sunnydale's demonic populace and thus prevents other (rival) bads from unleashing some Apocalypse prematurely (the way Sisterhood of Jhe tried to do it) why give her grief?

If Buffy starts messing with his plans then he has to do something about it. But until this very ep Buffy & the gang knew next to nothing about the upcoming Ascension. If Faith wasn't that talkative the Scoobs would've continued to be in the dark for a longer time.

Mayor's plan is to ascend, not make Buffy's life a living hell.

[Halting Hex]

Living a life of unobtrusive evil may do wonders for staying off the Slayer's radar and paving the way for your eventual Ascendant glory, I agree…

…but man, does it make for sub-optimal television.  And since Wilkins is actually only a TV character (AFAIK, anyhow), those are the standards by which I'm judging his prudent exercise of discretion.  But JMO, O'course.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Okay, so Xander's having a rough episode.  Not only do Buffy and Giles lie to him for no reason I can see, not only does Angel cold-cock him unnecessarily, but Doug Petrie makes sure to include a "joke" where Xander says he beat up Willy the Snitch, but nobody believes him because, c'mon, it's only Xander.   How could he threaten anybody, even a short (Saverio Guerra is 5'6") coward like Willy?  Ha-ha!

Gee, you'd think that someone might remember that Xander has not only knocked Angel to the ground (Killed by Death, and yes, it was a surprise attack with X using his coat to blind Angel, but still), but fought off vampires despite having a broken wrist.  (Becoming, Parts I & II.). Apparently not, though.

(I'll grant you that the group might not know about Xander facing down Angel in the "White Knight" scene.  Yes, they refer to the possibility of Angel attacking Buffy in the hospital, but that might just be because he attacked her in the teaser.   We don't know that Xander ever mentioned the hallway scene.)

But that's not all!  Not only is Xander too weak to intimidate Willy, he had spend $28 to bribe him, and he can't be reimbursed, because he didn't get a receipt!  Ha-ha, what a loser!

Mind you, I don't have a clue why Giles doesn't just give Xander the money and say "next time, get a receipt."  Giles may only be cashing the one paycheck these days, but he's still doing okay financially, it seems.  I know I could never afford an apartment with a loft bedroom.  
 

To be fair, "this being Sunnydale and all…", the housing market is notably depressed, as Xander himself noted back in Witch.  But still, Giles is clearly in a better position to spend $28 than a teenager who doesn't have a job, seems to come from a working-class family, could only afford $2 for his Hallowe'en costume, and had to borrow his tuxedo and his fancy car from relatives.  Don't be a dick, Giles.

(Actually, even Wesley might handle the reimbursement.  it's clear that, despite his initial skepticism, he has essentially deputized the kids, as seen when Oz [in a relatively rare moment of usefulness] suggests their visit to the Hall of Records, and Wes not only consents but brings all of the non-Buffy teens.  And as it's Oz who also finds the evidence about Wilkins, this proves productive.  So pay the kids for their work, Watcher.)

Edited April 2, 2022 by Halting Hex
Given that both Xander and Oz are men, with man-parts, a plural pronoun is indicated.

[lembergwatcher]

The showrunners seemed to hate either Xander or Nick... Which is quite sad. So much wasted potential... 

[Halting Hex]

I've honestly wondered if Nick had made a pass at Joss's wife, or something similar.  Either that or Joss (he of the all-male boarding school and "who didn't experiment in college?") made a pass at Nick, and got shot down…