House of Pose: Cultural and Social Issues Thread

[Lady Calypso]

This is the thread where you can discuss the various cultural and social issues brought up in Pose in more depth. 

Reminder: Be civil toward one another and do not forget the Primetimer Rules. 

[Scarlett45]

So far I like how the show is intersecting class, race, sexuality and gender identity in an authentic way. Blanca being physically thrown out of a gay bar (with a clientele of young, white, professional gay men) was a realistic plot point that fit into the story line. Our Cis Straight characters range from the black theatre teacher (who due to her profession has a variety of people in her social circle) to James Vander Beek (I cannot recall his characters name) the asshole sexist white guy. I want them to develop Kate Mara’s character more than just Stan’s wife. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scarlett45

[ClareWalks]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Mara Rooney’s character

It's Kate Mara, she has a sister Rooney Mara so I understand the confusion :) 

[Scarlett45]

17 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

It's Kate Mara, she has a sister Rooney Mara so I understand the confusion :) 

Yes! Kate Mara, I knew that I will amend. 

 

Edited- I don’t know why I never get her name right!

Edited June 21, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Scarlett45]

After episode 4 where we finally meet Electra’s gentleman friend, and the fight between Angel and Stan, I got to thinking about the power dynamics in romantic/sexual relationships on this show.

The most equitable relationship seems to be between Damon and Ricky, Ricky being the more sexually experienced of the two, but it’s not explotiative at all. They are of similar age, wealth etc, they are together because they want to be. 

We don’t know if Blanca was in a relationship before the show started, but she seems to be focusing her energy on being a mother- she’s desexualized, most likely by her own choice which is within her power, but also due to fear regarding her diagnosis. 

Angel and Stan- she fears that he thinks she’s a pornographic magazine come to life rather than a person. Stan didn’t show up at a LGBT or trans space hoping to meet someone to have an extramarital affair with, he went cruising for a sex worker AFTER he got his big promotion. I know it’s more complex than Angel believes but I cannot blame her for thinking that. 

Electra and Her Man(I know he has a name)- she’s willing to give up her lifestyle to be complete. He will never understand and I doubt he will spend two seconds of emotional energy on her, other than to lament he has to find someone else. 

Trans women of color are extremely disadvantaged in society at large, I would imagine it would be difficult to have an equitable relationship with a Cis straight white man, even in 2018, much less in the mid 80s. I wonder if we will see any other relationships between people in the Pose community (outside of Ricky and Damon). 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Scarlett45

[hoodooznoodooz]

Is there any chance they will ever call Blanca or Electra “Mom”?

[Shadowcat2576]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 7:40 AM, Scarlett45 said:

After episode 4 where we finally meet Electra’s gentleman friend, and the fight between Angel and Stan, I got to thinking about the power dynamics in romantic/sexual relationships on this show.

The most equitable relationship seems to be between Damon and Ricky, Ricky being the more sexually experienced of the two, but it’s not explotiative at all. They are of similar age, wealth etc, they are together because they want to be. 

We don’t know if Blanca was in a relationship before the show started, but she seems to be focusing her energy on being a mother- she’s desexualized, most likely by her own choice which is within her power, but also due to fear regarding her diagnosis. 

Angel and Stan- she fears that he thinks she’s a pornographic magazine come to life rather than a person. Stan didn’t show up at a LGBT or trans space hoping to meet someone to have an extramarital affair with, he went cruising for a sex worker AFTER he got his big promotion. I know it’s more complex than Angel believes but I cannot blame her for thinking that. 

Electra and Her Man(I know he has a name)- she’s willing to give up her lifestyle to be complete. He will never understand and I doubt he will spend two seconds of emotional energy on her, other than to lament he has to find someone else. 

Trans women of color are extremely disadvantaged in society at large, I would imagine it would be difficult to have an equitable relationship with a Cis straight white man, even in 2018, much less in the mid 80s. I wonder if we will see any other relationships between people in the Pose community (outside of Ricky and Damon). 

Your observations are very astute.

I agree that Damon and Ricky's relationship is the most equitable. They are both young gay men in similar circumstances.

I read an article a few months ago by a transgender woman about the differences in relationships and sexual power with men prior to transition (as a gay man) and after transition (as a straight woman) she noted that there was a definite imbalance that she did not feel before. My own experiences reflect that as well.

I think the relationships/sexual attitudes we are seeing with the women are very interesting and I appreciate the variety. Unfortunately, sex is too often seen as the only tool a transgender woman has. Electra and Angel both use sex as a means of support/survival, yet are obviously bothered by the fact that the thing that draws men to them is the thing they most hate. Candy and Aphrodite(?) appear a bit more comfortable with it.

Electra and Angel of course both have the sex for money aspect going. I don't see Electra ever feeling comfortable in a relationship where she wasn't kept like a queen and priced treasure. I think Angel wants the security of a relationship, used her experience with Electra to get what she sees as security from Stan, but would ultimately be happy if a guy carried her off to a 2 bedroom home in Iowa.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

Your observations are very astute.

I agree that Damon and Ricky's relationship is the most equitable. They are both young gay men in similar circumstances.

I read an article a few months ago by a transgender woman about the differences in relationships and sexual power with men prior to transition (as a gay man) and after transition (as a straight woman) she noted that there was a definite imbalance that she did not feel before. My own experiences reflect that as well.

I think the relationships/sexual attitudes we are seeing with the women are very interesting and I appreciate the variety. Unfortunately, sex is too often seen as the only tool a transgender woman has. Electra and Angel both use sex as a means of support/survival, yet are obviously bothered by the fact that the thing that draws men to them is the thing they most hate. Candy and Aphrodite(?) appear a bit more comfortable with it.

Electra and Angel of course both have the sex for money aspect going. I don't see Electra ever feeling comfortable in a relationship where she wasn't kept like a queen and priced treasure. I think Angel wants the security of a relationship, used her experience with Electra to get what she sees as security from Stan, but would ultimately be happy if a guy carried her off to a 2 bedroom home in Iowa.

Why thank you very much. I think Angel would be happy in a “regular” relationship with a guy that wasn’t super wealthy or anything but loved her for her. I think her chances of getting that from a Stan type are low. 

I’m a cis straight black woman, and unfortunately women who want to engage in partnered sex with men have to weigh our need for partnered sex with our need for safety in a way men who have sex with men, and women who have sex with women just don’t. The power dynamics in a heteronormative relationship are huge.  I can only imagine that’s 100x for a transwoman. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Shadowcat2576]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I’m a cis straight black woman, and unfortunately women who want to engage in partnered sex with men have to way our need for partnered sex with our need for safety in a way men who have sex with men, and women who have sex with women just don’t. The power dynamics in a heteronormative relationship are huge.  I can only imagine that’s 100x for a transwoman. 

I can only speak of my personal experiences and those I've heard of other transgender women. Most of us are very leery of relationships with men. As has been pointed out in this show if a man is looking for a transgender woman specifically it is usually for that one attribute, which most women aren't very comfortable with. There is also unfortunately still a lot of stigma for the partners of transgender women, that they must be gay, even if their partner is post operative. As I've heard many times, finding a man that wants sex, or to treat a transgender woman as a fetish, or dirty little secret is easy. Finding one that sees us and treats us as they would any other woman is very rare. Add the fact that if you just want to date as a woman, and not a "transgender woman" that means that at some point you have to tell the guy. Will they be accepting or will they walk away. Will they get angry or even violent. Even post-op that is still a concern. Being post-op makes things in some ways harder, like this show also points out. The uniqueness/fetish factor is gone but there's still stigma and baggage.

We're taught to fear men. Probably more than cisgender women are. Men are the grown versions of the boys that usually teased and bullied us, perhaps the father that was ashamed of us or beat us. We're taught that men are dangerous, that they can and do kill us. If that is where your baseline is coming from it can be very hard to get to a place where you believe that you are worthy of a full, equal, loving relationship.

[hoodooznoodooz]

3 hours ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

I can only speak of my personal experiences and those I've heard of other transgender women. Most of us are very leery of relationships with men. As has been pointed out in this show if a man is looking for a transgender woman specifically it is usually for that one attribute, which most women aren't very comfortable with. There is also unfortunately still a lot of stigma for the partners of transgender women, that they must be gay, even if their partner is post operative. As I've heard many times, finding a man that wants sex, or to treat a transgender woman as a fetish, or dirty little secret is easy. Finding one that sees us and treats us as they would any other woman is very rare. Add the fact that if you just want to date as a woman, and not a "transgender woman" that means that at some point you have to tell the guy. Will they be accepting or will they walk away. Will they get angry or even violent. Even post-op that is still a concern. Being post-op makes things in some ways harder, like this show also points out. The uniqueness/fetish factor is gone but there's still stigma and baggage.

We're taught to fear men. Probably more than cisgender women are. Men are the grown versions of the boys that usually teased and bullied us, perhaps the father that was ashamed of us or beat us. We're taught that men are dangerous, that they can and do kill us. If that is where your baseline is coming from it can be very hard to get to a place where you believe that you are worthy of a full, equal, loving relationship.

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and point of view. I hope that you have found love or will find love, and that you are safe. I admire and applaud your courage and strong sense of self. 

[Shadowcat2576]

21 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and point of view. I hope that you have found love or will find love, and that you are safe. I admire and applaud your courage and strong sense of self. 

I happen to have a very good man in my life, definitely one of the rare ones.

[Scarlett45]

@Shadowcat2576 thank you very much for sharing your experiences with us. It means a lot to hear from someone who’s been in that situation. Society at large fetishizes the “other”, I think by only letting marginalized groups tell their own damn stories will we ever have empathy to the varied human experience. The thing that led me to this show was 1. Trans women of color playing trans women of color, 2. Janet Mock being involved. 

I am glad you have a great love in your life. 

[Shadowcat2576]

@Scarlett45 I’m glad that there was a thread like this where I could share some experiences without derailing episode talk. Obviously there are some social and economic characteristics that I don’t share with the characters in Pose or the actresses, but I’m happy to provide any insight I can.

 

Yes, the fact that the transgender characters are actually played by transgender people, especially women of color that may have some connection to to culture being represented is important. I know that there are people arguing that actors are actors and should be able to play any role. Here is part of the problem. Hollywood repeatedly casts male actors to play transgender women. Why? Because they want an easy way to show quickly that the character is trans/masculine. Many transgender actresses are told they look too feminine to play the role of a transgender woman, but also that they can’t be cast as a non transgender role because then people will assume the character is transgender.

 

Another important aspect of casting transgender actresses is being able to see the variety that our bodies come in.

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

Your observations are very astute.

I agree that Damon and Ricky's relationship is the most equitable. They are both young gay men in similar circumstances.

I read an article a few months ago by a transgender woman about the differences in relationships and sexual power with men prior to transition (as a gay man) and after transition (as a straight woman) she noted that there was a definite imbalance that she did not feel before. My own experiences reflect that as well.

I think the relationships/sexual attitudes we are seeing with the women are very interesting and I appreciate the variety. Unfortunately, sex is too often seen as the only tool a transgender woman has. Electra and Angel both use sex as a means of support/survival, yet are obviously bothered by the fact that the thing that draws men to them is the thing they most hate. Candy and Aphrodite(?) appear a bit more comfortable with it.

Electra and Angel of course both have the sex for money aspect going. I don't see Electra ever feeling comfortable in a relationship where she wasn't kept like a queen and priced treasure. I think Angel wants the security of a relationship, used her experience with Electra to get what she sees as security from Stan, but would ultimately be happy if a guy carried her off to a 2 bedroom home in Iowa.

The thing with Electra, in her quest to become the most beautiful woman she can possibly be, has unwittingly objectified herself. She thought she could get her operation past her man, but that guy only looks at her as a sex object that he loves to possess. He was very open that his love for her did not transcend her physicality and she thought her beauty would pacify that anger.

4 hours ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

I can only speak of my personal experiences and those I've heard of other transgender women. Most of us are very leery of relationships with men. As has been pointed out in this show if a man is looking for a transgender woman specifically it is usually for that one attribute, which most women aren't very comfortable with. There is also unfortunately still a lot of stigma for the partners of transgender women, that they must be gay, even if their partner is post operative. As I've heard many times, finding a man that wants sex, or to treat a transgender woman as a fetish, or dirty little secret is easy. Finding one that sees us and treats us as they would any other woman is very rare. Add the fact that if you just want to date as a woman, and not a "transgender woman" that means that at some point you have to tell the guy. Will they be accepting or will they walk away. Will they get angry or even violent. Even post-op that is still a concern. Being post-op makes things in some ways harder, like this show also points out. The uniqueness/fetish factor is gone but there's still stigma and baggage.

We're taught to fear men. Probably more than cisgender women are. Men are the grown versions of the boys that usually teased and bullied us, perhaps the father that was ashamed of us or beat us. We're taught that men are dangerous, that they can and do kill us. If that is where your baseline is coming from it can be very hard to get to a place where you believe that you are worthy of a full, equal, loving relationship.

 

29 minutes ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

I happen to have a very good man in my life, definitely one of the rare ones.

Again, Shadowcat, we appreciate your honesty about these subjects and I wish you a lifetime of happiness with your partner.

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

@Scarlett45 I’m glad that there was a thread like this where I could share some experiences without derailing episode talk. Obviously there are some social and economic characteristics that I don’t share with the characters in Pose or the actresses, but I’m happy to provide any insight I can.

 

Yes, the fact that the transgender characters are actually played by transgender people, especially women of color that may have some connection to to culture being represented is important. I know that there are people arguing that actors are actors and should be able to play any role. Here is part of the problem. Hollywood repeatedly casts male actors to play transgender women. Why? Because they want an easy way to show quickly that the character is trans/masculine. Many transgender actresses are told they look too feminine to play the role of a transgender woman, but also that they can’t be cast as a non transgender role because then people will assume the character is transgender.

 

Another important aspect of casting transgender actresses is being able to see the variety that our bodies come in.

I always thought of it as- hiring cis men to portray transgender women is akin to hiring white people to play other ethnic groups- it’s basicially saying that trans women don’t deserve to be seen. And your point above. What in the world. It’s awful. 

I had not thought about the bolded before but that is a very insightful point. If you were an alien species looking at our media and then came down to visit you’d be surprised at the variety of human shapes. Of course there are typical ranges (most adult humans are between 5ft and 6ft tall for example), but women come in all different shapes and sizes. 

[AgentRXS]

I was originally drawn to this show because I pretty much like everything Ryan Murphy touches (except Glee) and I love the late '80s New York backdrop. I am so glad that I tuned in as I am learning so much about the transgender community. I am a straight, cis female living in a LGBTQ- community and the transgender women I've encountered have been much like Elektra--very stuck up and clique-ish.  I am glad I am learning about their experiences and their struggles. We all get along better if we all understand each other better.

I am so glad trans actresses are getting a chance to shine as I think MJ Rodriguez and Indya Moore will be great actresses with more experience. Laverne Cox is good in her own right, but MJ and Indya really have something special. I look forward to the day when no one cares about whether someone is trans and just chooses them on talent alone.

[Shadowcat2576]

19 hours ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

Another important aspect of casting transgender actresses is being able to see the variety that our bodies come in.

 

18 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I had not thought about the bolded before but that is a very insightful point. If you were an alien species looking at our media and then came down to visit you’d be surprised at the variety of human shapes. Of course there are typical ranges (most adult humans are between 5ft and 6ft tall for example), but women come in all different shapes and sizes. 

That is a good point, but I was thinking more about the variety that transgender bodies come in. Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, Mj Rodriguez, Indya Moore, and Angelica Ross are all stunning. I would wager though that Cox and Mock would be considered by most to be the most "feminine". Maybe it's just me, but I love seeing that Blanca, Angel and Candy has flatter chests and less curves. This is realistic, it doesn't make them less beautiful. We come in all shapes and sizes, like all women do.

[Ohwell]

And I would cut a bitch for Blanca's legs.  

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The heartbreaking video of the burial of COVID 19 victims in the same place (Hart Island) so many AIDS victims were interred is devastating. 

One of the very best things this show has done was to do a callback to this unspeakably sad and sacrosanct soil at the beginning of Season 2.  May this be the last time it is needed as a resting place.  

[julierose]

This is one of my favorite shows maybe of all time. Rich in black/gay/trans/ball culture very informative on marginalization and the hiv epidemic, the incredible 80s soundtrack and clothes, I mean it has it all. However I'm struggling a bit with the cutting out of kate mara and evan peter's characters. That is because I think they did such amazing jobs in their roles. I get that the show should focus primarily on it's main characters and I thought it already did, but I guess I just feel bad that these two actors even James Van Der Beek as well, did such superb jobs only to be cut.

[ClareWalks]

On 9/1/2020 at 10:16 AM, julierose said:

However I'm struggling a bit with the cutting out of kate mara and evan peter's characters. That is because I think they did such amazing jobs in their roles. I get that the show should focus primarily on it's main characters and I thought it already did, but I guess I just feel bad that these two actors even James Van Der Beek as well, did such superb jobs only to be cut.

Their storylines were done, though, and those actors are not hurting for work. They did do well with the roles, I agree, but I don't agree that the show should continue along with them, as that would stray away from the whole point of the show.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m pretty late to the party, but just starting to watch this series.  I really like it.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Still watching and liking this series.  I do have a question.  Are all the characters who appear as women transgender women?  What about Sandra Bernhart’s nurse character?

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Still watching and liking this series.  I do have a question.  Are all the characters who appear as women transgender women?  What about Sandra Bernhart’s nurse character?

Sandra Bernhardt is a cis gendered woman, and an out lesbian. (As is the nurse she plays)
 

All of the characters that are trans women are played by trans women. 

On 5/2/2022 at 8:39 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m pretty late to the party, but just starting to watch this series.  I really like it.  

It’s good! You’ll like it. The characters are complex and relatable. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I watched the last season and I did like it.  I had difficulty getting into Pray rebonding with his family, especially his mother.  I have trouble with grown people who are aware of a child being sexually abused and doing little to nothing about it.  Pray forgave her….I found it difficult.   
 

I can say that I learned a lot about the social scene in NYC at the time.   I have a first cousin who died of AIDS in the 80s, though not in NY.  
 

This was an ambitious project and I see why it garnered so much praise.  

[Scarlett45]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:00 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I had difficulty getting into Pray rebonding with his family, especially his mother.  I have trouble with grown people who are aware of a child being sexually abused and doing little to nothing about it.  Pray forgave her….I found it difficult.

I understand your thoughts on this. 
 

I understand how financially and socially dependent a woman could be on her husband, but to know he’s sexually abusing your child, and then put the responsibility on your CHILD to fight them off and stand by this thinking for decades- I just can’t either. 
 

I can see Pray forgiving her, she was his mother and he did have happy memories with her. That step father was a POS, I hate to think the damage he did to Pray psychologically. The unresolved trauma probably had a lot to do with the drinking.  

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I understand your thoughts on this. 
 

I understand how financially and socially dependent a woman could be on her husband, but to know he’s sexually abusing your child, and then put the responsibility on your CHILD to fight them off and stand by this thinking for decades- I just can’t either. 
 

I can see Pray forgiving her, she was his mother and he did have happy memories with her. That step father was a POS, I hate to think the damage he did to Pray psychologically. The unresolved trauma probably had a lot to do with the drinking.  

And, then when Pray’s mother shows up to visit Blanka with the ashes and comments to her, You’re a mother too!  It made me really angry.  Imo, the show brushed over that neglect too easily.  That mother sashayed in like mother of the year, after leaving her child to a predator……it didn’t sit well with me at all.  It’s not ok.  People may have reasons, but the mom shouldn’t act so entitled.  
 

And, I was turned off by the celebration of incredible wealth by Electra. Yes, she gave to good causes, but the tribute to decadence was a turn off for me.  Being so haughty because you’re a criminal?  Not good.  I see what they were trying to do, but it didn’t work for me.  All those around Electra were tainted and connections to her were dangerous, due to the mob connection.  That money came to her via the suffering of others.  I didn’t care for it.