Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Demented Daisy]

In this case, however, I think Dean's reaction to the MoC, his horror at what he was becoming, was at least in part because of his fear of turning into a demon again, so it *did* affect his character, and Jensen's characterization.  

 

I don't disagree, nor have I stated that the MoC did not affect Dean's characterization.  But we're talking about Dean having "powers", which the MoC did not give him.  Not in the way that I think people want to see.  When people talk about Dean having powers, it's often in reference to Sam's demon blood powers and how he was able to use them to help people.  I think people want to see Dean as the Supernatural version of a "super hero", which the MoC definitely did not make him.

 

But I could be wrong.  That's why I keep asking questions.

[ahrtee]

I don't disagree, nor have I stated that the MoC did not affect Dean's characterization.  But we're talking about Dean having "powers", which the MoC did not give him.  Not in the way that I think people want to see.  When people talk about Dean having powers, it's often in reference to Sam's demon blood powers and how he was able to use them to help people.  I think people want to see Dean as the Supernatural version of a "super hero", which the MoC definitely did not make him.

 

But I could be wrong.  That's why I keep asking questions.

I think we're talking about two different things here.  I was replying to your statement that seemed to say DemonDean didn't affect Dean's character, not about future possible changes.  And I think Catrox made some good points about how DemonDean could have affected Dean, which the writers ignored.

 

I was just getting confused with how the Superhero part of the debate got linked with DemonDean.  I think they're two separate issues, except for the "how it would affect Dean" part.

 

And while I agree that some people (definitely not all!) want to make Dean into a  superhero, it doesn't seem to me that they want it to change his character, just give him something special.  Personally, I don't like superhero shows, because I do prefer watching humans overcoming realistic--sort of--obstacles, rather than superheroes fighting supervillains, and I would hate Supernatural to become that.  However, I don't think that's what Catrox was asking. I think she was asking if a sudden burst of superpowers (not a permanent change) would necessarily change Dean's character.  I think the answer to that would be:  it depends if the writers need it for a particular reason, the same way Sam's powers sometimes scared him, sometimes made him overly confident, and most of the time were ignored as if they didn't exist.  I can't say if they affected his character, because he had them through the entire series, even if they were dormant or suppressed for 90% of the time.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think people want to see Dean as the Supernatural version of a "super hero", which the MoC definitely did not make him.

 

I think he could qualify as the Punisher.  :)

 

In theory, I don`t have a problem with dark superpowers/ a dark supernatural arc - that is still better than no supernatural arc at all - but the problem is Dean just had one of those. It gets too depressing if the only way to go is down, down, down so now I would like some build-up story for him, like a phoenix rising from the ashes thing.  

 

And while I`d love to see some action-oriented, I always thought one of the generally considered more "passive" powers could work. Visions are obviously out of the question because that would be super repetitive, mind-reading is not something this show should tackle but healing powers possibly. Where he suffers a personal kickback from it. 

 

This might be a strange suggestion coming from me because it has the potential to take him out of the action more and would play on the nurturing/caregiving side of Dean that I don`t want him to be pigeonholed in. But I do like that side, it shouldn`t be focused just on Sam though in the narrative. In the earlier Season that portrayal was much more balanced. This Season Dean needs to be lectured on the concept of saving people as if he never thought about it and Sam is vying again for sainthood. 

 

In general, a more balanced writing would be much appreciated. 

 

But it would have Dean struggling with making choices and maybe realizing how far he can and can not go or that his worth and value as a person isn`t in question if he can`t go all the way.    

 

Active powers are also tricky because what could they be at this point? I don`t want to see the stupid hand of Ipecac from either Sam or Dean. Random demon and angel powers would also be quite lame. That takes out the usual suspects like telekinesis and teleportation as well as superstrength and extreme durability. It needs to be something fresh and new. 

 

Of course, you could also have a supernatural arc for Dean without him having powers. The writers just need to commit to one. 

 

In the end, I just want some new material for the character. Not one scene these days doesn`t feel like I haven`t seen it a million times before. And maybe I liked it back in Season 2 or so but that was when it was fresh and new. This Season is such a blank slate of nothingness for the character. The bond with Amara is as nebolous as it has been in the Season Opener. Nothing but nothing notworthy has really been done with it since then.

 

As for the character reacting to it, he was confused and kinda horrified by it in the Season Opener and he still is now. It`s 15 episodes later, did the writers not put one single thought into this storyline? Apparently not.

 

I have a genuine question to everyone who doesn`t want Dean to have powers. Is it just powers or a supernatural storyline per se? And would you want to see or be open to see different material for Dean,than he is currently getting even if it`s different in another way than what I outlined as my preferences?

[Demented Daisy]

I think we're talking about two different things here.  I was replying to your statement that seemed to say DemonDean didn't affect Dean's character, not about future possible changes.  And I think Catrox made some good points about how DemonDean could have affected Dean, which the writers ignored.

 

We certainly are talking about two different things.  I did not say the bolded, catrox did:

 

 

But NOPE he's recaptured and cured of being a demon...and FOR WHAT? It was a bait and switch yet again. It accomplished NOTHING for Dean's characterization that I can discern.

 

 

To which I replied:

 

Doesn't that mean that you think that Demon Dean should have done something for his characterization?

 

 

I don't recall making any statements about how Demon Dean affected (or failed to affect) Dean's characterization.  I did say that I felt it was an affront to his humanity, though.

[shang yiet]

Yeah well, we all want ample badassery, cool heroics, fresh new exciting material, deeper character exploration and big awesome kills for our favourite boys. So that's nothing new. And the writing does frequently let us down. That's not new either.

 

Sam's powers vanished a long time ago and I don't see them surfacing anytime soon. So for now, both Sam and Dean are on equal terms. And even when Sam had powers, they didn't exactly cover him in glory. They were supposed to be bad since they came from an evil source. So it will be pretty annoying now if Dean gets powers and it's yay, so awesome, you go, Dean, use them powers for good,

 

I remember when I first watched the pilot, I got the distinct impression that the Azazel mytharc was more centred on Sam. Mary burned up in Sam's nursery, it was Sam's fiancee that burned up. So you can't say Kripke tricked you or misled you into thinking Dean was the chosen one. He set it up as Luke and Han so you knew how the story would go right from the beginning. The story didn't need two Lukes or two Hans.

[Aeryn13]

 

I remember when I first watched the pilot, I got the distinct impression that the Azazel mytharc was more centred on Sam. Mary burned up in Sam's nursery, it was Sam's fiancee that burned up. So you can't say Kripke tricked you or misled you into thinking Dean was the chosen one.

 

Of course the show clearly started with Special Sam the Chosen One. That doesn`t mean that I expected a show would be actually unable to write storylines for two characters at the same time. I can see why ensembles with 5-8 characters struggle but two? And they always, always said "it`s a show about both, bla bla" so nope, I did not expect Samnatural for an entire decade. Guess my expectations were too lofty.  

Edited March 23, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

I have a genuine question to everyone who doesn`t want Dean to have powers. Is it just powers or a supernatural storyline per se? And would you want to see or be open to see different material for Dean,than he is currently getting even if it`s different in another way than what I outlined as my preferences?

 

Standard disclaimers, I speak for myself, mileage varies, blah blah blah.

 

Apart from liking my heroes flawed, I also like a "fish out of water" element to them.  I know that early on, Sam was presented as the outsider, but that never resonated with me.  The focus was on Sam's story, Sam's journey.  Dean was a character in Sam's story, instead of being his own character.  Likewise, in the Winchester family, Sam was the strange one, but to outsiders, he would be considered "normal".  That didn't interest me.  (Marilyn on The Munsters, for example, was my least favorite character.)

 

Eventually, Dean developed his own character and his own story, which I was much more interested in.  I was curious to see how he kept the peace between John and Sam, how he strived to be the perfect son (despite John's focus on Sam), how he fought the evil and darkness all around him, yet managed not to be touched by it.  (Harry Potter has a similar story to Dean's in that respect.  On the surface, he is like Sam (demon blood/horcrux parallel), but how he deals with the horror that surrounds him, yet manages to hold on to love -- that's the kind of story I can get into.)  Part of Dean's journey, for me, is how he deals with the craziness around him without the benefit of supernatural powers.

 

So the question, for me, becomes -- if Dean develops/is given some sort of supernatural power, how does it affect his character?  Not just the character itself, but how the character fits into the universe of the story.  Not having powers makes him special, to me.  I like Dean as he is, so I don't want to see him changed by having some sort of power, which I assume he would be.  I am not adverse to character growth, but I feel that giving him a power to do so is a shortcut.  It's lazy writing.

 

I did not enjoy watching Demon Dean or MoC Dean.  At the same time, though, I would not object to a one-episode, alternate reality Dean who does have some crazy superhero powers that he uses for good.  It could be fun!  But as part of canon, as a permanent fixture of his character?  Not interested.  I like Dean human.  I like Dean's human journey because it is so different from Sam's or Castiel's or Crowley's or any other character that is more than human or was never a human to begin with.

[Myrelle]

"I did say that I felt it was an affront to his humanity, though."

 

But why does it feel like it's an affront to his humanity to you? Dean is a character of darkness and light. He can be as demonic or as angelic as any other character on this show. He isn't a SuperHuman who cannot be corrupted. Is it more difficult to corrupt him than it is to corrupt, say, Sam or Castiel. Maybe. And maybe that's because of all the characters on this show, Dean is the least trusting-even while he knows that some degree of two-way trust is sometimes a necessary component of getting a job done or a mission accomplished. And yes, it backfires on him sometimes-again, as it has for every other character on this show. Taking on the MOC lead to Dean becoming a demon, a knight of hell akin to Cain-who had those red-smiting powers which we never saw Dean employ because why? That was a writing fail to me. And as for the change to Dean's characterization-for once, HE was the monster who needed to be saved from himself-as Sam once was and as Cas once was also(and as Cas is now). They haven't explored it in depth with any of the characters, IMO, except to pay it lip-service through a line of dialogue thrown in there once in a while and yet Sam and Cas were both allowed to exhibit more powers than DemonDean or MOCDean ever was allowed.

 

And Dean having powers DID change his characterization in that now he knows what it feels like to actually be the monster. Not giving him the kind of powers that he should have wielded as a knight of hell who was also carrying the MOC was purely a writing decision-and a bad one at that, again IMO-likely made for what reasons, I cannot say, but we should have seen that red smiting power from MOCDean because, according to show canon, it was established as a power that went along with the MOC. To me, it isn't a matter of whether any powers would or should have made or caused there to be a difference in Dean's characterization(and we have gotten that as a result of the the MOCDemonDean sl, IMO), it's that they were pre-established by the writers when Cain carried the Mark, but then unceremoniously tossed aside when Dean carried it. It's writerly BS, IMO, that can only be explained away through wanking, but nobody in the writers' room minds that because it was Dean's storyline, not Sam's or Cas'. JMO, of course.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Myrelle

[Demented Daisy]

"I did say that I felt it was an affront to his humanity, though."

 

But why does it feel like it's an affront to his humanity to you? 

 

Because the definition of a demon, in the Supernatural universe, is "a human soul, corrupted".  So, literally, making Dean a demon destroyed his humanity.

[shang yiet]

Despite Sam being the chosen one, the show was never Samnatural. Dean and his angst ate up the emo arc.

[Myrelle]

I don't think it destroyed his humanity any more than Sam's was destroyed by the demon blood driniking. I DO think it corrupted his humanity though-something that can happen to any human, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

 

Despite Sam being the chosen one, the show was never Samnatural. Dean and his angst ate up the emo arc.

 

That depends on how much worth - or not - you attribute to an "emo arc". For me plot is the key. And Sam did have emo. It mostly didn`t endear him to me because whenever there is an episode in his head, I feel like he comes across worse. And the show and tell don`t match but that is a different problem in my eyes.

 

 

It's writerly BS, IMO, that can only be explained away through wanking, but nobody in the writers' room minds that because it was Dean's storyline, not Sam's or Cas'. JMO, of course.

 

I do agree. I`m convinced if the MOC had been a Sam storyline, we would have seen multiple episodes with those powers. And if we had gotten Demon!Sam, it wouldn`t have been 3 episodes. They would have kept it even with making the 200th episode some meta piece. And the mid-Season Finale of Season 9 wouldn`t have focused on Claire and Cas but on a MOC!Sam.

 

Those were not story-reasons but Dean-reasons for me. It was just because he was the character in question that the writers didn`t bother.  

 

 

I like Dean's human journey because it is so different from Sam's or Castiel's or Crowley's or any other character that is more than human or was never a human to begin with.

 

I love more-than-human or other-than-human struggles/plots/narratives. It`s why most of the shows I watch are a supernatural/scifi/fantasy-setting. 

 

Normally Sam would be the narrative archetype I gravitate to because the true-blue human problems I get in other shows, albeit in a different context, bore me. And while I came to this show through an interest in Jensen from his Dark Angel days, it often happens that I still favour another character not played by the actor I followed to a show. Sam and I just weren`t compatible so I went right back to Dean. Who unfortunately plays the role I do not go for. Sigh. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

I think we're talking about two different things here.  I was replying to your statement that seemed to say DemonDean didn't affect Dean's character, not about future possible changes.  And I think Catrox made some good points about how DemonDean could have affected Dean, which the writers ignored.

 

I was just getting confused with how the Superhero part of the debate got linked with DemonDean.  I think they're two separate issues, except for the "how it would affect Dean" part.

 

And while I agree that some people (definitely not all!) want to make Dean into a  superhero, it doesn't seem to me that they want it to change his character, just give him something special.  Personally, I don't like superhero shows, because I do prefer watching humans overcoming realistic--sort of--obstacles, rather than superheroes fighting supervillains, and I would hate Supernatural to become that.  However, I don't think that's what Catrox was asking. I think she was asking if a sudden burst of superpowers (not a permanent change) would necessarily change Dean's character.  I think the answer to that would be:  it depends if the writers need it for a particular reason, the same way Sam's powers sometimes scared him, sometimes made him overly confident, and most of the time were ignored as if they didn't exist.  I can't say if they affected his character, because he had them through the entire series, even if they were dormant or suppressed for 90% of the time.

 

I think it's the same old discussion of character vs plot. In the early seasons, plot informed character more. Sam's demon blood powers, for better or worse, weren't really about Sam getting to kill things using powers, but were a means to explore other parts of his character--the anger, for one. Dean's trip to Hell, whether originally planned or not, helped inform on his self loathing issues. The story was more cohesive since they were heading towards something. 

 

As the show has gone on, there's just not many places they can take these two characters that will tell us something we don't already know about the them, IMO. So, the divide seems to come between character or plot anymore. Personally, I'd like to see them expand the scope of the show, add a few more characters, so there can be both plot and character again, but that's me.

 

I do find it hard to reconcile the idea that Dean must have powers to be seen as a hero or equal in the narrative. I just think he's always been important and always been a hero and he never needed powers for me to see him as such. 

[Demented Daisy]

I don't think it destroyed his humanity any more than Sam's was destroyed by the demon blood driniking. I DO think it corrupted his humanity though-something that can happen to any human, IMO.

 

Yes, any human can become a demon.  

 

The difference between Demon Blood Sam and Demon Dean is Dean became a demon.  Sam never did.  His eyes flipped black, but immediately afterwards, God put him on that plane and cured him.  Dean didn't get the same from God.

 

The demon cure, however, may have cleansed his soul.  He was no longer a demon, therefore, his soul was no longer corrupted.  I still believe, though, that by definition, a demon has no humanity.  When Dean was a demon, he was no longer human; he lost his humanity.

[catrox14]

A lot of goal post moving and conflating of ideas here.  I'm going to try and regroup here so that I don't lose the thread of the discussion since I am so late to the party today. So sorry for being redundant but I've gotten a bit lost. I'll be making a couple of posts in reply but it seems almost pointless now after I realized the following.

 

 The first question is here:

 

 

Sam is Superman; Dean is Batman. 

 

Sam is Luke Skywalker; Dean is Han Solo.

 

ETA  Sam is the Flash; Dean is the Arrow.

 

In a universe full of characters who have "powers", Dean being the only human who still fights makes him special.  So why do people want him to have powers?  It makes him like everyone else.  I don't get it.

 

 

I think people want to see Dean as the Supernatural version of a "super hero", which the MoC definitely did not make him.

 

I was all prepared to refute your superhero analogy because respectfully, I thought it was a reach to apply Superheroes to  Sam and Dean mostly because I have never seen in the show or in fandom that Sam and Dean are considered as superheroes ..

 

But then from Merriam Webster, I find this: 

 

a fictional hero having extraordinary or superhuman powers; also :  an exceptionally skillful or successful person  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superhero

 

So fuck it, with that definition and the fact that Baby can clearly time travel, Sam and Dean are Superheroes. 

 

And now we can just debate about how we prefer our Superheroes to be powered.  

Edited March 23, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

I was all prepared to refute your superhero analogy because respectfully, I thought it was a reach to apply Superheroes to  Sam and Dean mostly because I have never seen in the show or in fandom that Sam and Dean are considered as superheroes ..

 

By all means, go ahead.  I'm all for a respectful, thoughtful discussion of ideas.

 

However, I will say that I object to the idea of "refuting" another's opinions.  

[catrox14]

Ahrtee.

However, I don't think that's what Catrox was asking. I think she was asking if a sudden burst of superpowers (not a permanent change) would necessarily change Dean's character.

Yes this is exactly right.

A burst of special powers in and of themselves do not necessarily mean the character has to be altered permanently especially since we know Dean was not going to be a demon forever.

But living as a demon, murdering humans, having his soul twisted into a demon, yes that definitely should affect Dean and the show should look into how that affected him. The cure restored his humanity but it didn't erase his memories or experiences.

Edited March 23, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

I have no interest in discussing Demon Dean.  It's over, it's done with, it has been for -- what?  18 months?  If they haven't addressed how it affected Dean, I doubt they ever will.  (Of course, this in no way means that I think others should not have that discussion.  Like I said, free exchange of ideas around here.)

 

For clarification:

 

 

And while I agree that some people (definitely not all!) want to make Dean into a  superhero, it doesn't seem to me that they want it to change his character, just give him something special.  

 

For those here who want to see Dean with some sort of powers, is this what you want?

[catrox14]

 

I do find it hard to reconcile the idea that Dean must have powers to be seen as a hero or equal in the narrative. I just think he's always been important and always been a hero and he never needed powers for me to see him as such.

 

Just to be clear, and I'm not going to speak for anyone else, in no way am I saying nor implying that Dean is not a hero. I have always argued that Dean is a hero (heh and now I feel perfectly fine saying his is a superhero or even supervillain as demon!Dean). 

 

My beef about Dean's powers is that they never had demon!Dean display the full array of special powers that a Knight of Hell would have and never explained why we didn't see that happen.  If it was a matter of Dean actively choosing to not use those powers then the show should have made that clear one way or the other. That would have given us more insight into what choices demon!Dean was making about his existence as a demon vs human. That is important to Dean's character

[Aeryn13]

 

For those here who want to see Dean with some sort of powers, is this what you want?

 

I think "something special" is a good umbrella term to describe it because yes, that is what I would want. It`s not feasible to turn the show into Arrow/Flash/Supergirl in its 12th Season and I would not want it either. To get my true-blue superhero fix, I have all these shows.  

 

For Dean, I want two things: something special and ultimately being acknowledged as a hero.

 

A quote from Steven Williams` interview just now, I found very disheartening. "Bobby and Rufus drink, Dean is a homicidal maniac and Sam looks for the righteousness in it" re: hunting. Is this how the characters are seen now? Is Dean reduced to a "murdering psycho" charicature these days? It seems like the heroic part has fallen completely by the wayside. The rhetoric of the nepotism duo of "he is a born killer" seems to have completely taken hold if even guest actors come away with this overall impression of the characters.. 

 

Meanwhile, Sam is the good guy who does it for the right reasons? Guess the sell on his character worked to a T.   

 

It`s like an uglier version of Tall Tales has become the actual perception of the characters. Simplistic and depressing.

[Demented Daisy]

It`s like an uglier version of Tall Tales has become the actual perception of the characters. Simplistic and depressing.

 

Indeed.  The subtlety and nuances of the characters from the earlier seasons is gone, IMO.  Carver draws with broad strokes.  They are, at times, caricatures of what they once were.

 

I have every intention of watching to the bitter end, but I hope they get a new show runner next year.  In fact, I think I'll bring it up in the appropriate thread....

[catrox14]

By all means, go ahead.  I'm all for a respectful, thoughtful discussion of ideas.

 

However, I will say that I object to the idea of "refuting" another's opinions.  

 

If an analogy can be proved inapt that's refuting the methodology behind the argument. It's not refuting the opinion formed from the analogy.

 

But as it turned out , it was an apt analogy :) if we think Sam and Dean are superheroes

Edited March 23, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I do agree. I`m convinced if the MOC had been a Sam storyline, we would have seen multiple episodes with those powers. And if we had gotten Demon!Sam, it wouldn`t have been 3 episodes. They would have kept it even with making the 200th episode some meta piece. And the mid-Season Finale of Season 9 wouldn`t have focused on Claire and Cas but on a MOC!Sam.

 

Those were not story-reasons but Dean-reasons for me. It was just because he was the character in question that the writers didn`t bother. 

Disclaimer: My opinions only coming up...

 

Not surprisingly, I mostly disagree. If the writers had Sam turn into a demon, do I believe he might've caused more carnage than demon Dean? Yes, that I believe, but more powers, no. And in my opinion, there is precedent. When Sam turned dark in season 4, he didn't get the instant flashy powers that say Ava got or even Jake with his super strength. Not only did Sam's powers often fail, he was saddled with needing demon blood * in order to enact these "powers" which basically consisted of two related things - exercising or (much later) killing demons.

 

Sam's powers didn't generally help them in any other scenario, and even if they were fighting demons, Sam was often told not to use his powers, or they failed and he had to use the knife anyway. Often, with a few exceptions (such as Samhain or Famine), Dean would kill just as many monsters or even demons as Sam would when Dean was present (and the season 4 and 5 numbers Demented Daisy calculated seemed to support that). In my opinion, with a few exceptions, the writers seemed to go out of their way to make Sam's powers as unglamorous as possible - powers erratically fritzing out, multiple angels condemning their use, gross bloody nose when it did work, long-lasting negative personality changes, seedy and rather distasteful source, ugly withdrawal symptoms, etc.

 

My guess is that if Sam had been a demon, he might've caused all sorts of awful things to happen, but I doubt his powers would have been any more "glamorous" than his season 4 powers were. Just my opinion there.

 

And if I remember correctly the mid-season finale that season which I think was either "I Know What You Did..." or "Heaven and Hell" focused just as much on Anna and her introduction, Alastair and his introduction, Dean's relationship to those two, and the machinations of Castiel and Uriel as it did on Sam and his - finally, it only took 9 episodes - backstory. My opinion only there again.

 

*Though whether Sam needed it physically or mentally is still up for debate, the physical symptoms lead me to believe the demon blood did something that was somehow necessary. Usually when he got a dose, he would immediately "power up" when his powers had before fizzled.

 

My beef about Dean's powers is that they never had demon!Dean display the full array of special powers that a Knight of Hell would have and never explained why we didn't see that happen.  If it was a matter of Dean actively choosing to not use those powers then the show should have made that clear one way or the other. That would have given us more insight into what choices demon!Dean was making about his existence as a demon vs human. That is important to Dean's character

 

But what exactly are those "special powers," and how long does it take to get them? Did Abaddon have that red light power? (Or was that only connected to the blade?) How long does someone have to be a demon to gain all of those powers? Cain had been around a long long time. I thought that it was generally a thing that younger demons weren't as powerful as older demons... yet in my opinion Crowley was afraid of demon Dean, so that says something right there that someone as old and powerful as Crowley would be afraid of baby demon Dean.

 

And as I mentioned above, it's not like Sam got the super instant power up pack when he got his powers, so...

 

And then Dean got to be mark of Cain Dean, pretty much kicking ass all over the place and killing more demons and monsters than Sam with his "powers" ever did. And unlike Dean, Sam pretty much became almost irrelevant in terms of their hunting during those seasons except to be there to "talk Dean down" or maybe get taken hostage. (Sam killed a monster or demon in a total of 7 episodes all of season 9 and 10, less than 1 in 6 episodes. I think Dean's count was around 22 episodes where he took out at least 1 bad guy, not including the demon Dean episodes.) So the show got to have its cake and eat it too - no long-term demon Dean to tarnish Dean's character and allow demon Dean's powers to grow (to where he might do actual damage), but all of the badassery with the mark of Cain. I think it was a win-win for them.

[Myrelle]

And now I'm wondering if the Dean/Bobby scene in this one isn't going to involve Bobby lecturing, chastising, or warning Dean about one day becoming a "homicidal maniac", while in his last two appearances on the show, he couldn't praise Sam's heroism enough...*sigh*... :-(

[Demented Daisy]

If an analogy can be proved inapt that's refuting the methodology behind the argument. It's not refuting the opinion formed from the analogy.

 

If you wish to refute the analogy, please do so.

[Aeryn13]

 

And now I'm wondering if the Dean/Bobby scene in this one isn't going to involve Bobby lecturing, chastising, or warning Dean about one day becoming a "homicidal maniac", while in his last two appearances on the show, he couldn't praise Sam's heroism enough...*sigh*... :-(

 

I don`t think they will interact directly but the interviews mentioned the brothers Bobby`s journals, I guess Dean reads them while Bobby narrates them and they do some sort of split screen thing, If this is set somewhere around Season 4, that would mean Bobby wrote this garbage about Dean not long after he came back from hell. It wouldn`t surprise me but wow with the character bashing there. 

 

Strangely enough when Sam was soulless and a homicidal maniac, Bobby had praise for him as a supreme hunter. And as you said, after that, he praised his heroism. 

 

Dean apparently is just garbage on the road with the mind of a killer. I mean, Williams must have taken that perception from somewhere. So presumably it gets reinforced in the episode. 

[catrox14]

 

I have no interest in discussing Demon Dean.  It's over, it's done with, it has been for -- what?  18 months?  If they haven't addressed how it affected Dean, I doubt they ever will.  (Of course, this in no way means that I think others should not have that discussion.  Like I said, free exchange of ideas around here.)

 

Are you suggesting that because it happened 18 months ago, it should no longer be factored into an analysis of Dean's characterization now? Or used as reference to things with Dean's SL?

 

I mean the show is going all the way back to Sam's journey into Hell and being Lucifer's vessel which happened 5 years ago and the show brought up Sam's guilt for not looking for Dean which happened 3 years ago.

[Myrelle]

I mean, Williams must have taken that perception from somewhere. So presumably it gets reinforced in the episode.

 

This is my fear now.

[Demented Daisy]

Are you suggesting that because it happened 18 months ago, it should no longer be factored into an analysis of Dean's characterization now? Or used as reference to things with Dean's SL?

 

 

Nope, not suggesting that.  I'm saying that they haven't discussed it (as you pointed out) since he was cured.  It seems unlikely that they will address it in the future.

 

But, as always, mileage varies.

[shang yiet]

Yes, the show started with Special Sam, Luke and Han. So it's too  bad if you prefer Dean to be Luke. Kripke didn't trick the fans. Dean did get awesome writing but he was never set up as Luke no.2. It doesn't matter if fans prefer Dean, he was not going to do a complete switcheroo and suddenly turn Dean into Luke and Sam into Han.

Yes, the show was about two brothers but only one of them was going to be Luke. It seems like some fans wanted two Lukes but Kripke didn't set it up that way and the pilot made that quite clear.

 

quote "And Sam did get emo"

 

And Dean did get plot and awesomeness. Plenty of plot. He was never a mere nursemaid. And many times, Sam played the supportive role too.

[Aeryn13]

 

Yes, the show was about two brothers but only one of them was going to be Luke.

 

For me, that`s mutually exclusive. If you write a Luke-Chosen-One tale, then your show is about them and only them, albeit with supporting players and sidekicks. In that case, I find the "it`s about both" mantra from the PTBs to be fucking bullshit. , 

 

 

 

And Dean did get plot and awesomeness. Plenty of plot. He was never a mere nursemaid. And many times, Sam played the supportive role too.

 

 

Unsurprisingly I disagree heavily with the words "plenty" and "many times" here. Dean got rarely the plot and was actually a mere nursemaid for half a Season whereas I`d say Sam was in the just supportive role once in the whole show. And during that one time, it was like the sky was falling with such a demeaning non-role for poor Sam. 

 

But okay yeah, I know that my a lot of my problems stem from the inability of connecting with the showrunners (all three of them) pet. I just can`t when the writing ticks off all the checkboxes of "hell no" for me character-wise. Their ability to do so is almost uncanny. Statistically, they should have missed a few on pure luck.  

[Demented Daisy]

A quote from Steven Williams` interview just now, I found very disheartening. "Bobby and Rufus drink, Dean is a homicidal maniac and Sam looks for the righteousness in it" re: hunting. Is this how the characters are seen now? Is Dean reduced to a "murdering psycho" charicature these days? It seems like the heroic part has fallen completely by the wayside. The rhetoric of the nepotism duo of "he is a born killer" seems to have completely taken hold if even guest actors come away with this overall impression of the characters.. 

 

For what it's worth, I just read this interview, and Williams says:

 

When Rufus sends a line back to Bobby or vice versa, they’re just these two grumpy old guys and deadly killers who have so much love and camaraderie between them and so much stuff in common

 

 

So at least he thinks that Bobby and Rufus are killers, too.  It's not the same as calling someone a homicidal maniac, but I'm going to err on the side of hyperbole.  I understand why it angers others, though.  You hear something once, it's annoying.  When it gets repeated, yeah, that can be concerning.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

Dean got rarely the plot and was actually a mere nursemaid for half a Season whereas I`d say Sam was in the just supportive role once in the whole show.

 

I would argue most of season 3 was Sam in a supportive role... and arguably for me, a bunch of season 9 and 10.

 

I could even argue season 7... yes Sam was the one messed up in the head, but most of the time he - and Bobby - were trying to help Dean. There were multiple conversations about it. It's just that Dean didn't really want help in season 7. He wanted revenge - which he got in the end. And I happened to love season 7, so no complaint from me on Sam in a supportive role.

 

My complaint only comes from when Sam is in a mostly useless role - where all he is given to do is be a plot device, complain, and watch Dean kill all the bad guys as in much of season 9 - or a character assassination role - the first half of season 8, for me.

[catrox14]

We certainly are talking about two different things.  I did not say the bolded, catrox did:

 

 

To which I replied:

 

 

 

I don't recall making any statements about how Demon Dean affected (or failed to affect) Dean's characterization.  I did say that I felt it was an affront to his humanity, though.

 

Okay things are getting confused.

 

I used demon!Dean's powers to answer your original first question about powers. I am unsure if MoC!Dean really had any control over the FB because that could have been Mark calling the Blade back to Dean's hand...like a magnet. But the self-healing was clearly and unambiguously a special power that demon!Dean could control. We never saw him teleport or handflick someone across the room. 

 

The question was clarified that you meant what would  Dean having powers would do for Dean's characterization to which I replied temporary powers in and of themselves would not necessarily change Dean permanently nor did they have to for demon!Dean to affect change in Dean.

 

I went further to explain WHY and HOW demon!Dean's character traits could positively impact Dean's characterization and character arc in the future.  Special powers are not character traits.

 

I hope that helps clear it up. 

[Aeryn13]

 

 

I would argue most of season 3 was Sam in a supportive role... and arguably for me, a bunch of season 9 and 10.

I could even argue season #7

 

I`m talking Seasons where Sam had no supernatural plot of his own, nothing supernaturally wrong with him but JUST supporting. I`m not talking one-offs here but arcs, even mini-arcs. For Dean that fits multiple Seasons, for Sam that is only one time in Season 10. And by the end of it, the plot still kinda moved to him but I`ll count it regardless. All other times he had vision/Psykids/Ruby1 and Lilith/demon blood powers/Lucifer vessel/soullessness/hallucinations/trials/angel possession and this Season the revisited Lucifer plot again.

 

Dean had no such supernatural story in Seasons 1, 2, 6 and 7. That is still a good third of the entire show vs. 1/11. 

[Demented Daisy]

(ETA  This is in response to catrox.  I should have quoted, but I wasn't expecting to take so long with my reply.  My apologies.)

 

I'm aware of what you said; I'm aware of what I said.  But, you see, at no time did I intend to talk about Demon Dean.  It's why I didn't mention him or the Mark of Cain in reference to Dean having powers.  Because those are past storylines.  I was curious about, for those people who want Dean to have powers in the future (which, I concede, I did not state explicitly, but I thought it was clear that I was talking about a future storyline), what that would mean for his characterization.

 

So, to clarify once again:

 

For those who want Dean to have powers in a future storyline, how would you see them affecting his characterization?  Not Demon Dean, not MoC Dean, but a new set of powers.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

If he could use those powers benevolently and (in time) have control over them, he could find more of a zeal in helping people again by having some effective, obvious wins. He could ultimately gain a new sense of self worth and learn that he matters as a person, not just as "Sam`s brother" or a tool. He could come to the conclusion that he is indeed more than just a "born killer" who will either die soon or grow old and bitter as a hunter, feeling less trapped than he appears to be now.

 

Now none of this would come overnight and there would be epic freak-outs and missteps along the way but it could all end with a sense of accomplishment. 

 

He would not change being brave or caring or any of that because why would that change? It`s like Captain America where they deliberately sought out someone who embodied the spiritual qualities they wanted in their future superdude and then imbued him with physical powers. They knew he would stay the same person at heart, just that he would now have powers to help others better. .   

[Demented Daisy]

If he could use those powers benevolently and (in time) have control over them, he could find more of a zeal in helping people again by having some effective, obvious wins. He could ultimately gain a new sense of self worth and learn that he matters as a person, not just as "Sam`s brother" or a tool. He could come to the conclusion that he is indeed more than just a "born killer" who will either die soon or grow old and bitter as a hunter, feeling less trapped than he appears to be now.

 

Now none of this would come overnight and there would be epic freak-outs and missteps along the way but it could all end with a sense of accomplishment. 

 

Hmm.  Interesting.  Do you think this would only be possible if he had special powers, or could he develop without it?  How long would he need to have the powers?  If not permanently, how would Dean be affected by losing his powers?

[shang yiet]

So it's good for Dean to have powers because it's all about getting self-worth and learning he's marvelous but Sam, he's just downright arrogant when he wants to use his powers and he needs to stop using them because they're bad and messes with the universe. No, if Dean has self-esteem issues, he can just handle them like everyone else.

[AwesomO4000]

I`m talking Seasons where Sam had no supernatural plot of his own, nothing supernaturally wrong with him but JUST supporting. I`m not talking one-offs here but arcs, even mini-arcs. For Dean that fits multiple Seasons, for Sam that is only one time in Season 10. And by the end of it, the plot still kinda moved to him but I`ll count it regardless. All other times he had vision/Psykids/Ruby1 and Lilith/demon blood powers/Lucifer vessel/soullessness/hallucinations/trials/angel possession and this Season the revisited Lucifer plot again.

 

Dean had no such supernatural story in Seasons 1, 2, 6 and 7. That is still a good third of the entire show vs. 1/11. 

 

Honest mistake on my part, I think, since those caveats weren't intuitive for me in the original post. In my opinion, they are also a somewhat artificial restriction. For me, it's like the article that was around a while back talking about how no one on the show ever talked about Dean's welfare when Dean wasn't in the room, but the number of conversations involving major characters that Dean isn't involved in on the show are fairly small, so of course the pool of numbers to draw from is going to be reduced.

 

Typically Sam's stories are supernaturally based, because he was affected by demon blood. Dean's stories are more hunter based, because he was the one who grew up embracing that life. During the times when Sam had supernatural stories, Dean still had hunting and other plot points. It's not like Dean had no arcs at all in season 1 or 2... And there was a start of at least a recurring supernatural plot point if not an arc: his association with Tessa the reaper began in season 2. Dean also started his association with the crossroads demons which lead to his making the deal at the end of season 2 which is also supernaturally influenced. Not a full arc at that point, but important for season 3, and it influenced his decision at the end of season 2.

 

And as I have said before, even when Dean doesn't have a supernatural arc, he often gets a major kill - the hunting side. The same is generally not the case for Sam. Even if I agree with your above 1/3 to Sam's 1/11*, I can put up similar numbers for other things that favor Dean. Killing a recurring antagonist is one of them. If we want to get technical, it's been about 5 seasons since Sam has done that. He's killed a recurring foe in 3 seasons: 3, 4 and 5 (and that's being generous because I counted Gordon... and Lucifer, who didn't really die and is now back). Dean has killed at least one recurring antagonist, sometimes more, in 7 different seasons starting from season 2. Sam has never killed a recurring foe without his powers - in other words Sam doesn't really get to be the "hunter" that Dean got to be when Sam had powers.

 

When Dean had the powers with the MoC, he got both roles, because he did vast majority of the "hunting" as well, so it can be easy to use numbers to show inequities.

 

* And I still argue season 7, because Sam's hallucinations weren't really "supernatural" in nature in that a spell or supernatural influence wasn't causing them, he was just crazy from hell memories. And technically Ghost Bobby was supernatural and in my opinion was affecting Dean (Ghosts tend to do that as we saw in "Death Takes a Holiday".) Also season 9, because even though Gadreel was arguably a "supernatural" story, it really had little to do with Sam himself beyond making him bitchy later on (and in my opinion, it was just as much about Dean's guilt as anything else.) Sam was a vessel for Gadreel. He had no powers on his own, and wasn't even present when the powers were used. So if we're counting Gadreel affecting Sam in season 9, I argue that Ghost Bobby should count for Dean in season 7, but mileage varies of course.

 

And that's actually another difference between them. Sam tends to get possessed a lot more - by demons and angels. Dean tends to get body morphed (Old Dean, young Dean, vamp Dean, Dog Dean, Demon Dean) and travel through time much more. That's just the way the show rolls.

[NoWillToResist]

. I know the exact time my patience with that construct ran out. It was when Ruby said "it`s all about you" to Sam in early Season 3. That is when I had enough of that. 8 years ago.  

 

 

 

Despite Sam being the chosen one, the show was never Samnatural.

 

Even before I watched a single episode of this show, I remember reading about this show featuring two brothers who hunt monsters across the U.S. I remember, throughout my time of watching it, reading that the show was "about the brothers", and their relationship was "the core of the show".

So, I was floored by a seemingly throwaway comment Jensen recently (I think) made during a convention 'panel' with Misha. They were talking about how they could cause trouble on set and blame it on Jared since they could 'hide' behind Mr #1 on the call sheet. Jensen, in explaining Jared's position on the call sheet, stated, much to my surprise, that Sam was the main character. That really shocked me. I had always wondered why JP came first in the credits since I think JA had a larger body of work before SPN but it appears that it's that way because Sam is the more important character. Take from that what you will...

[catrox14]

Eh...I think you have to take Jensen's remarks in context of when and where he said them and take it with a big fat grain of salt and whiskey. It was from the Rome Con that Jared had to leave when he had his issues last year. Jensen was slightly inebriated. He was  missing Jared. Jensen and Misha got to telling stories about Jared. One of the stories was about Jared breaking things.  . Jensen said "It's nice to have somebody like that in their lives we don't get blamed for those things" .  He went on to explain that "At the beginning of Supernatural, Sam was the pinnacle character of the show as some of you may know".  He went on to say that Sam, the character, is still #1 on the call sheet and that hasn't really changed in 10 years, but that he doesn't really care and explained the hierarchy is basically convenient for blaming Jared because he's the lead of the show.  It's actually pretty funny.  

 

 

 

Here's the video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PLwpRteWsTk#t=247

 

I don't think it was a commentary on Dean not being a co-main character at the time he said it back in May of 2015, since Jensen didn't know what was coming up for s11.  Although, if he said that NOW, then I might think it was some commentary because he did say in cons after s11 season started and I'm paraphrasing a bit but the gist was "Dean's back to driving the car and bailing his ass out'. I'll try to find that video.

 

I think the show didn't really expect Dean to become the co-lead. I give all the credit for Jensen making Dean far more interesting than the archetype Dean was at the outset and he was so good that it forced the writers to do more with Jensen.  JMHO

Edited March 24, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

I had always wondered why JP came first in the credits since I think JA had a larger body of work before SPN

 

The WB as it still was back then wanted to pluck JP from Gilmore Girls and build him in a lead role. The CW is no different now about wanting to make certain actors happen. Jensen had only that year started as a recurring character on Smallville so he wasn`t the one they pushed for. If the show had been on Fox where Jensen previously was with Dark Angel and had had a different studio behind it, it would have been a different situation back then. A lot of that kind of stuff is in-house politics.

 

 

 

Hmm.  Interesting.  Do you think this would only be possible if he had special powers, or could he develop without it?  How long would he need to have the powers?  If not permanently, how would Dean be affected by losing his powers?

 

Hypothetically, I think he could accomplish all that outlined without powers if the writing was good enough. But my answer in the context of what SPN is, is different because I do believe the writers care more, are more interested and invest more in writing for special/superpowers/supernatural characters. I said above, even so I felt Dean got slighted but without a powers/supernatural storyline I do not see them writing anything worthy for him at all. Which is why realistically to grow in this particular show, I`d say no, he can`t do it without them. You would have to switch out the entire cadre of writers and producers to even give that a chance.

 

As for how long he would need to have them, it`s so late in the game, if they got introduced now, they would need to stay till the show ended or else it looks like anothe half-hearted attempt that goes nowhere. If say, he got control and felt he did some good with those powers and finally got some self worth from it all but then ended up losing them while the show was still going on, I reckon there would just be another depression phase where he feels like a worthless failure all over again. I just have no wish to see that. Not even with good writing. I`m sick of the material in any way, shape or form they can give it.  

 

 

Sam was a vessel for Gadreel. He had no powers on his own, and wasn't even present when the powers were used. So if we're counting Gadreel affecting Sam in season 9, I argue that Ghost Bobby should count for Dean in season 7, but mileage varies of course.

 

I count Gadreel because Sam`s body was supernaturally altered through possession. Just as I count Ghost Bobby as a supernatural storyline for Bobby. I do only count Season 8 for Dean for example because he was bodily in a supernatural realm for a bit. But reacting or being affected by the supernatural storyline of another character is exactly the thing I do not want. Dean has had that all the time and I don`t enjoy it. It does nothing but rub salt in the wound for me.

 

Which is why I`m still at 4 long Seasons of going without. I do watch supernatural shows for supernatural plots. Even if Dean wasn`t the Chosen One, he could have had those. 

[Demented Daisy]

Hypothetically, I think he could accomplish all that outlined without powers if the writing was good enough. But my answer in the context of what SPN is, is different because I do believe the writers care more, are more interested and invest more in writing for special/superpowers/supernatural characters. I said above, even so I felt Dean got slighted but without a powers/supernatural storyline I do not see them writing anything worthy for him at all. Which is why realistically to grow in this particular show, I`d say no, he can`t do it without them. You would have to switch out the entire cadre of writers and producers to even give that a chance.

 

As for how long he would need to have them, it`s so late in the game, if they got introduced now, they would need to stay till the show ended or else it looks like anothe half-hearted attempt that goes nowhere. If say, he got control and felt he did some good with those powers and finally got some self worth from it all but then ended up losing them while the show was still going on, I reckon there would just be another depression phase where he feels like a worthless failure all over again. I just have no wish to see that. Not even with good writing. I`m sick of the material in any way, shape or form they can give it.  

 

Hmm.  A lot to think about.  I agree with the bolded part -- which makes me even more sure that I don't want to see Dean with powers.  I suspect it wouldn't last and I fear he would lose them at a vital moment, which would send him into a downward spiral of self-loathing.  I've had quite enough of that.

 

I'm still open to a one-off, alternate reality, super-powered Dean, though.   

[Aeryn13]

 

which would send him into a downward spiral of self-loathing.  I've had quite enough of that.

 

I think that is pretty much his status quo though. He has been in the background more this Season so you don`t see it much but with what little we had with Amara, I think he feels worthless, a burden and a failure. And whenever they deem to write something for Dean, they will just harp on that. And in between you get MOTW episodes where he seems fine or acts as goofy comic relief and then it`s back to depression.

 

The only time in the last few years where he seemed remotely free was Demon!Dean. They had to literally cut out all of his humanity to make him un-depressed for a bit. 

 

So my worry with a sudden power loss would be to get back to the same kind of writing we have now. But without even gaining powers or anything, we also still have the same kind of writing we have now. So the term "no risk, no fun" becomes literal here for me.

 

 

I'm still open to a one-off, alternate reality, super-powered Dean, though.

 

While I would adore such an episode, I`m not sure it wouldn`t depress me even more in the aftermath. It`s like getting one scoop of ice-cream and then you can never ever have ice-cream again. Torture.

[DittyDotDot]

The WB as it still was back then wanted to pluck JP from Gilmore Girls and build him in a lead role. The CW is no different now about wanting to make certain actors happen. Jensen had only that year started as a recurring character on Smallville so he wasn`t the one they pushed for. If the show had been on Fox where Jensen previously was with Dark Angel and had had a different studio behind it, it would have been a different situation back then. A lot of that kind of stuff is in-house politics.

 

But, wasn't Jensen on Dawson's Creek previous to Smallville? And, as I recall, he was almost cast as Superman on Smallville. It's not like Jensen was unknown to the network, IMO.

 

I was listening to the commentary track for the Pilot--Kripke, Nutter and...shit, a producer whose name just went out of my mind, sorry--the other day. I haven't listened to it for a while, so it was interesting because this would've been back before the show developed any party line and such. Kripke said David Nutter suggested Jensen to come read--originally for Sam--as he had worked with Jensen on both Smallville and Dark Angel. No one mentioned where the suggestion for Jared came from, though.

[Demented Daisy]

I think that is pretty much his status quo though. He has been in the background more this Season so you don`t see it much but with what little we had with Amara, I think he feels worthless, a burden and a failure. And whenever they deem to write something for Dean, they will just harp on that. And in between you get MOTW episodes where he seems fine or acts as goofy comic relief and then it`s back to depression.

 

I think there's a difference between depression and self-loathing.  I see the depression (and, frankly, do not blame him -- he's lost almost everyone he's ever loved), but not the self-loathing.  Not on a consistent basis, anyway.  He has doubts about himself because he hasn't been able to save everyone, but so do cops, firefighters, the military, etc.

 

I'm not saying it's not there, I'm just saying I don't see it.

[catrox14]

Jared was tapped out of Gilmore Girls straight up. There wasn't anyone at their auditions other than Jensen and Jared from every story I've heard and read.

 

Jensen came in to read for Sam but liked Dean more and Kripke and company realized they had the brothers at that point. 

 

Kismet and serendipity that it worked so well. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

But, wasn't Jensen on Dawson's Creek previous to Smallville? And, as I recall, he was almost cast as Superman on Smallville. It's not like Jensen was unknown to the network, IMO.

 

Yes but in both Dawson and Smallville he was very much a secondary character who only came in for a year. Jared had been with Gilmore Girls since the beginning which at that time was in its 5th Season? There was interest in giving him his own show on the network and Kripke`s proposed project looked like a good fit to them. They still liked Jensen well enough but it was to be Dean or nothing at that point. And I do not think Kripke was free in his decision-making overall because he didn`t have that clout back then. Or even now.  

 

Additionally, Jared had been in a few movies, no big roles or big projects but Jensen had done more TV work. That also gives an agent more leverage. Or gave maybe, TV has become de-stigmatized in the last few years. If Jensen had had a bigger name recognizeability or more movies or any of that, his agent would have probably negotiated either the names coming up at the same time on the screen. Like Bones where this was exactly the reason, Deschanel played the lead character but Boreanaz was better known so no actors name could come first or second here. Or the actor who is supposed to get equal billing gets an "and" before their name but it would look weird with only two leads.

 

If they auditioned now for the same show, they would be on an even keel. Granted, they would never be cast together again in the same project for obvious reasons, not as leads or recurring anyway. Meanwhile if hypothetically Jeffrey Dean Morgan came back and got a recurring/lead status like Misha or Mark, I`d die from shock if he didn`t get an "and" because he raised his profile lightyears since 2005. .      

Edited March 24, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

Granted, they would never be cast together again in the same project for obvious reasons, not as leads or recurring anyway.

 

I think they could be cast together again in a different project. I mean if they really wanted they could probably be like a new generation of Redford&Newman and work together in multiple projects.