Caitlin Snow

[BeautifulFlower]

I lowkey feel like the splitting was fanservice. Fans kept voicing how the whole sharing one body makes no sense. They also questioned how would one of them date.

[Trini]

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I lowkey feel like the splitting was fanservice. Fans kept voicing how the whole sharing one body makes no sense. They also questioned how would one of them date.

It might partially be that, but I also think that whatever story they came up with for Frost + Caitlin in Season 7 probably doesn't work with two people in one body; and that's why the split is happening now.

I just hope they keep her arc separated from the A-plots and Barry/Iris so that I can skip easily.

[Starry]

On 4/1/2021 at 9:25 PM, adora721 said:

Bravo! Bravo! for this, perfectly said.

That is what happens when the writers' unconscious bias and non-intersectional faux feminism leads to plots in which the heroes compromise the moral high ground for the sake of a privileged female character. It's also why the strong black female trope has haunted Iris with regard to her trauma for years. It's why Iris was written to make "amends" with and reward Cait and Killer Frost even though they are the ones who hurt Iris and have never apologized for it. It's exhausting as well as infuriating.

I think that Joe and Iris mainly go along for Barry's sake and to keep team Flash intact. Barry and Cisco's moral compasses are broken because they still see Cait as the good person they first met who is a fragile victim of losing Ronnie twice. Nevermind the decisions she made in 3x7, nevermind the choice she made to work for Amunet in human trafficking to get technology when her best friend is literally a tech genius, nevermind that she risked Cynthia's life being snuffed out by the Thinker, nevermind her callous lie to get team Flash to work with Amunet again and promise to work for Amunet again to get KF back. These are not the actions of a good person who is a victim. And I don't need to rehash all of Killer Frost's criminal acts because they're plenty obvious. 

I agree with everything with the exception of the bolded.

Joe and Iris have disagreed with Barry on other occasions and if they were going along with it for the sake of the team the narrative would make it obvious. Let's be honest Iris was the one who vouched for Frost before anyone else. In the bachelorette party episode Barry wasn't happy when he saw Frost at STAR Labs but Iris told him to hear her out.

My problem with Frost is that the writers went as far as to make her a willing accomplice in the murder of a team member. If it weren't for that, she would be like the other villains the team tried to reason with and let go once they proved that they were sorry and switched sides. How many times did they let Amunet escape? What about Eva? I know that Iris fans like Marlize but she was another character who helped a supervillain carry out his evil plan. She should have paid for her crimes like Frost should but they offered her a job at STAR Labs instead. The team is very forgiving in general and as people who work in law enforcement, Barry and Joe have let too many criminals off the hook.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

Let's be honest Iris was the one who vouched for Frost before anyone else. In the bachelorette party episode Barry wasn't happy when he saw Frost at STAR Labs but Iris told him to hear her out.

Ugh! I know and I despise that fact😡. And you're right; I'm making it my headcanon that Iris and Joe are doing it for Barry's sake because I cannot stand the fact that the writers made Killer Frost's victim, Iris, vouch for her. It also hasn't been lost on me that Marlize and now, Eva, also got away with much villainy without any negative consequences or apology to Iris.

The writers are sending absolutely the wrong message because they seem to let the women villains get away with stuff they rarely let the male villains get away with like Snart. It's fake feminism to say you want men and women to be treated equally by the law, but then you let female villains off the hook and male villains have negative consequences. Oh and those females that get away with it have a similar complexion.  Peekabo and Black Bison certainly had negative consequences, Golden Glider, not so much.

ETA: "My problem with Frost is that the writers went as far as to make her a willing accomplice in the murder of a team member."

I honestly don't believe the writers realized just how bad the things they wrote for KF to do were. Like, I think they didn't realize KF was an accomplice to HR's death. Either that or the writers are morally bankrupt, which would explain a lot. There was an episode in S4 in which Caitlin was upset and I thought she might be feeling guilty about what she did in S3 or seeing Harry's face might be bringing up flashbacks of HR Wells and her part in his murder. Nope; Cait was upset that team Flash liked KF more than her. 🤢  It might be the episode when Amunet had to tell Cait how "remarkable" she is. It's like Cait/KF have zero empathy, which makes them narcissists and sociopaths.

Edited April 7, 2021 by adora721

[Starry]

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

Ugh! I know and I despise that fact😡. And you're right; I'm making it my headcanon that Iris and Joe are doing it for Barry's sake because I cannot stand the fact that the writers made Killer Frost's victim, Iris, vouch for her.

The ideal would have been for Frost to own up to her mistakes and make amends but since that wasn't going to happen, I'd rather Iris vouch for her than Barry. It would have been beyond messed up for Iris' husband to tell her to give the accomplice in her attempted murder a chance.

 

18 hours ago, adora721 said:

I honestly don't believe the writers realized just how bad the things they wrote for KF to do were. Like, I think they didn't realize KF was an accomplice to HR's death.

They should have had her betray Savitar before he killed HR. It was that simple, especially when Frost ended up turning against him anyway.

[adora721]

28 minutes ago, Starry said:

 I'd rather Iris vouch for her than Barry. It would have been beyond messed up for Iris' husband to tell her to give the accomplice in her attempted murder a chance.

I cannot disagree more vehemently with the bolded text. For centuries, black people have been told they have to suck it up when they are beaten, killed, or demoralized by white people. Black people are told to be the "better person". Having Iris, who was Cait/KF's victim, be the one to pursure friendship, give them a blanket pardon, and then reward Cait/KF was just another version of the "noble savage"  and the "mammie" tropes. No, I cannot agree that Iris was the best choice. It would have made more sense for Cait's best friend, Cisco, to do this instead. 

In the end, what Iris did only served Cait/KF. Iris got zero benefit from it. It made Cait a key member of the West-Allen wedding. This friendship only lasted long enough for the black woman to be used to essentially whitewash the white woman's sins and crimes. Only at Barry's trial, after DeVoe framed Barry, did we see Cait and Iris kinda holding hands very, very briefly. When Iris was dreading the impending "death" of Barry in Crisis, not once did Cait or Killer Frost comfort Iris or ask Iris how she was dealing with this.

As for Barry, he knew Cait had worked for Amunet in human trafficking when he told Cait, "you're a good person". So, Barry did vouch for Cait, too.

Edited April 8, 2021 by adora721

[shantown]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

I'd rather Iris vouch for her than Barry. It would have been beyond messed up for Iris' husband to tell her to give the accomplice in her attempted murder a chance.

As ridiculous as this show has been about never showing two women interacting, let alone being friends... I absolutely don't want to see Iris "vouch" for Killer Frost ESPECIALLY since Killer Frost is the accomplice in her attempted murder!!! 

They need to handwave a Crisis-y reason why Ronnie is back because that was the only time Caitlin was even tolerable. And Killer Frost has been "best" when being a villain and not being forced into Team Flash as some sullen-y sarcastic asshole.

[Starry]

48 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I cannot disagree more vehemently with the bolded text. For centuries, black people have been told they have to suck it up when they are beaten, killed, or demoralized by white people. Black people are told to be the "better person". Having Iris, who was Cait/KF's victim, be the one to pursure friendship, give them a blanket pardon, and then reward Cait/KF was just another version of the "noble savage"  and the "mammie" tropes. No, I cannot agree that Iris was the best choice. It would have made more sense for Cait's best friend, Cisco, to do this instead.

I never said Iris was the best choice. She was just a better choice than Barry. What you are saying about black people being told to suck it up is what would have happened if Barry had asked Iris to hear Frost out and give her a chance.

I completely agree with you about the Snowest friendship and if the writers were honest and unbiased they would have had Frost earn Iris and the team's trust and forgiveness but it's Caitlin we are talking about and they've proven time and time again that they can't hold her accountable for anything.

 

52 minutes ago, adora721 said:

As for Barry, he knew Cait had worked for Amunet in human trafficking when he told Cait, "you're a good person". So, Barry did vouch for Cait, too.

Actually, he didn't know when he said that. The team only found out about Caitlin's association with Amunet in the following episode.

 

9 minutes ago, shantown said:

As ridiculous as this show has been about never showing two women interacting, let alone being friends... I absolutely don't want to see Iris "vouch" for Killer Frost ESPECIALLY since Killer Frost is the accomplice in her attempted murder!!! 
 

I don't think Iris is going to vouch for Frost again and I don't want to see it either. I am talking about the bachelorette party episode and Iris being the first person to welcome her back.

[adora721]

27 minutes ago, Starry said:

Actually, he didn't know when he said that. The team only found out about Caitlin's association with Amunet in the following episode.

 

Cisco found Cait working in Amunet's bar in 4x1; he called it a "rat's nest". Barry was out of the speedforce prison in 4x1. Barry said Cait was a good person in 4x4. So the team knew she was associated with Amunet for at least six months at that point. What they didn't know was that she was still KF and still working for or associated with  Amunet, which was revealed in 4x5. 

27 minutes ago, Starry said:

What you are saying about black people being told to suck it up is what would have happened if Barry had asked Iris to hear Frost out and give her a chance.

What was filmed was Iris sucking it up without Barry telling her to do so. And it won't be undone, unfortunately.

As for Iris being the better choice, I must, respectfully, continue to disagree. But I agree with you about the rest.

Edited April 8, 2021 by adora721

[rogvortex58]

"I have to say, Danielle Panabaker's performance this season, we're so lucky to have such gifted performers on our show, but I mean, she overachieved this year. It's just phenomenal to see her work because she's playing two characters."

- Eric Wallace.

[Trini]

It's just crazy to me that the show essentially killed off BOTH Caitlin and Frost in what could have been the final season.

Caitlin's been minimally useful for seasons now, but why kill off Frost just to also replace Caitlin with (most likely) another character with cold powers?? (Well, I know the real reason: Danielle didn't want to wear that wig anymore; per her interviews). 

Killing off Panabaker's characters but still keeping her around anyway is just a copy of Cavanagh and his multiple Wellses; and we know how tiresome that turned out to be.

[Trini]

Keep in mind this is a quote from Amell, not Panabaker:

Quote

Speaking of The Flash, it literally just ended, and I was so upset not to get my alternate universe Snowstorm ending. What would've been your perfect ending for Ronnie and, by extension, Caitlin?

Robbie Amell: It's so funny. When I came back for the last time as Deathstorm, they talked to me about it and were like, "You get to kill someone." And I was like, "Who do I get to kill?" And they're like, "You get to kill Caitlin, but not real Caitlin." I was like, "Great, okay, I'm in!"

And then I was like, "Wait, is she okay with this?” But because Danielle has two kids, she was like, "I'm exhausted from playing two characters." She's like, "Kill her." But when my buddy watched the episode, he goes, "Dude, fans love that character. They are going to be pissed." But whatever, I didn't write it! [Laughs]

https://screenrant.com/simulant-movie-robbie-amell-interview/

[Genius]

Why did Khione even have to exist? Why saddle us with this new, personality-free character wearing the face of someone we've loved for 8 years? What a disservice to Danielle Panabaker. Why did the writers feel the need to kill off both Caitlin and Frost in the first place? Did they honestly think we'd want to spend the final season of this beloved show watching this unnecessary new character when they could have given Caitlin and/or Frost an amazing finale that she/they deserved? With Joe mostly out of the picture, and the writers forcing characters we don't care about to the forefront (Cecile, Chester, Allegra and Marc), why not keep around one of the only 3 remaining original characters? It boggles my mind why they decided to use Danielle Panabaker this way for this final season. What a waste. No one cared about Khione and watching Danielle have to play her was sad and I was embarrassed for her.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Genius