Best of The Americans

[Erin9]

Best moments, best episodes, acting. Any of that. 

I’m going to start with something small. It’s not a big moment really. But I love Philip teaching Paige to drive. It was such a normal father/daughter scene.  We didn’t see a lot of that.  There was even some humor between them because she was so nervous,  and he was trying to get her to relax. He was a good teacher. 

 It ended with the reality of dealing with Pastor Tim seeping back in. But it goes down as a fave. 

[Razzberry]

The Martha storyline was riveting, for me.   Clark and Martha as characters aren't particularly likable,  yet it felt real and gut-wrenching.  Some of the best acting on television.

[Umbelina]

Gaad finding the pen.

Martha after Gaad found the pen.  (probably one of my all time favorite moments)

I also really liked Oleg and Tatiana in bed, I thought it was very real, and kind of sweet.  Well done by both actors.

Nina confessing to Arkady, after realizing Stan had murdered Vlad.

Stan and Oleg--pretty much every single scene they shared.

Arkady spray painting the abort code on the cars.

Those were the first ones that popped into my head.

[sistermagpie]

The ones that pop into my head:

Stan saying Curtis is, like him, a goddamn American

Nina confessing to Arkady (because they're both goddamn Russians!)

Viola in church deciding to confess to the FBI

Philip and Elizabeth remembering icicles

"I like the cold."

I second Arkady spraying the cars and Philip teaching Paige to drive and the discovery of The Pen

The wedding!

Elizabeth and Philip asleep in Arkady's car

"Would you like a coke?"

Aderholdt asked if people at the office have any problems with him because he's..."new."

Matthew's reaction to coming to visit Stan and finding Henry there

Edited June 4, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Plums]

I liked the part with Philip teaching Paige to drive too! That was so me my first time driving a car. Petrified and amusing my dad. 

On a much different hand, I really liked all those split second lingering reaction shots of Sad Henry after Paige found out, and P&E were so stressed out about her emotional state, just the look of abandonment on his face basically. Like when she got back from minigolf with the Tims and Philip and Elizabeth immediately stopped playing driveway hockey with him to shepherd her inside, is one example that stuck with me, but there are a few of them over the course of that period that led him to believe they loved her more than him, and that was just so sad to me.

And on a much lighter note, I think my favorite funny moment in the show is when Elizabeth is ranting to Philip about Paige getting sucked into Christianity on their car stakeout, where they are both dressed like criminals basically, and making it sound like she's gotten into drugs or something. XD And Philip's reactions to her made it even more hilarious. 

[Bannon]

My favorite scene was when Martha learned that her false marriage to Clark had resulted in Gene being murdered. The reason why the Martha arc worked so well for me is that Martha was written as a normal person, who by chance found herself with a job that was normal on the surface, except for mission of the smallish subset of the larger organization she worked for. Because of the unusual mission, her very normal, human, pain, seated in a profound loneliness and need for connection, was ruthlessly exploited.

She thought she had banished that pain, and then that illusion began to be stripped away, even as she desperately clung to the illusion. Already profoundly desperate to believe that she actually had made a profound, real, connection to someone other than her parents, she then gets real Horror shoved into her face, by learning that her pursuit of connection with Clark has resulted in the murder of a person she knew and respected. Allison Wright's processing of that Horror was one of the best moments in any television I've watched.

On a lighter note, Phil's honeypot targeting in season 5 was one of the few bright spots in that season. It was pretty humorous, in a show that didn't have a lot of humour. I really kind of think it was kind of a shame that the genuinely funny potential of that relationship was not given more time.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Bannon

[scartact]

The Martha arc is concretely the show highlight for me too. Those string of episodes, from Chloramphenicol to The Magic of David Copperfield 5: The Statue of Liberty Disappears, are just incredible. And one of my favorite scenes is when Elizabeth finds Martha and punches her in the gut to get her back to the safe house. And that final scene, when Martha realizes she'll be alone again.

I also adore all those quiet bedroom scenes Philip and Elizabeth had with one another (which felt like it happened most in season 3), especially the one where Philip remembers his training to make it real, and Elizabeth asks him if he has to make it real with her. They're just to incredibly vulnerable with one another. That icicle scene is great too!

My favorite small throwaway moment in the Pilot is when Philip is putting cover up on Elizabeth at the end of the episode before they go to their children. For me, that scene just spoke to an already-developed familiarity they had with one another, that it all didn't just necessarily start with the very first episode of the series.

31 minutes ago, Plums said:

And on a much lighter note, I think my favorite funny moment in the show is when Elizabeth is ranting to Philip about Paige getting sucked into Christianity on their car stakeout, where they are both dressed like criminals basically, and making it sound like she's gotten into drugs or something. XD And Philip's reactions to her made it even more hilarious. 

I had season 2 on the background the other day and I forgot how funny that scene was in context. The disgust as Elizabeth talks about indoctrination, particularly of boys cooing church songs! Those funny moments were so few and far between, especially once season 4 hit.

[hellmouse]

One scene that always made me laugh was in S4 E1, Glanders, where Philip and Elizabeth talk about Henry's cologne and how disgusting it is. It's probably the only light note in that entire episode. 

[Umbelina]

Speaking of Glanders, I loved that episode!

From the logical plot to kill both Pastor Tim and his wife (which really should have happened!) to that being interrupted by finding Gabe on the floor dying, to William running like hell, and Philip tackling him and spitting in his face, to William's lonely sterilized apartment, Elizabeth getting sick, the phone calls home and asking Stan to take care of the kids.  Basically, the four actors stuck in Gabe's safe house just were outstanding. 

So many great non-lead characters on this show.  Up until season 5 they were all so fleshed out and defined as people, and that helped make it great. 

• Martha, not even enough kudos possible perfect casting
• Nina, a remarkable story, blackmailed and a double agent for most of season one, turning triple agent, loved her perfect casting
• Gabe and Claudia, both equally compelling and believable, I wish they'd had more scenes together, again perfect casting
• Oleg, perfection from start to end, he lent so much humor and tragedy, and that was our "Russian Soul"
• William, talk about making a small part whole, every moment with him was compelling
• Arkady and Tatiana, again, incredible jobs in small roles that added so much reality, loved them
• Kimmy, she played that to perfection, never a false note

Larrick, that Russian Family in season 5, the central American junior spy who seduced the Senator's aide, Tuan, the guy who bought toys for Jared, the fascinating grandmother at the mail robot factory, SO many outstanding actors in relatively small roles.  They didn't rise to full potential in season 5, but they all did well with what they had.

I will miss this show.

Another absolutely stunning scene was Philip in the phone booth taking to Kimmy this season, telling her not to go to any communist country.  I was so STUNNED by that scene.  I really wish it had paid off logically, and she'd confessed to her dad about it.  That could have easily been included in the increase of tension, and honestly, I would rather have seen that than the priest, or at least have seen both of them.

I didn't care for the wedding.  It went on too long, and for me, was just too sappy.  Throw tomatoes, I certainly understand why some loved it.  I like the IDEA of them marrying for real, I just didn't like the way it was done.

[tennisgurl]

The entire Martha leaving the US run of episodes was amazing. I really had no idea what was going to happen, and I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Definitely a highlight of the whole series, and of television as a whole, in my opinion. It was so tragic, while also being exciting and there was an amazing mix of slow creeping fear, followed by OMG jaw droppers. It was just amazingly written and acted throughout. 

I loved the scene where Philip was depressed that his awkward target wasn't falling for his honey trap, and was starting to feel like like he didnt "have it" anymore, and Elizabeth gave him a pep talk. Its was really funny in how strange of a conversation that is to have with your husband "Come on sweetie, I know you can still sex up that woman!" but it was also sweet to see Liz trying to be supportive. 

I generally love Oleg, and his development as a character is in general always a highlight, and he has tons of great scenes, like all his scenes with Stan after Nina's death, but there are actually two scenes, with his parents, that I really loved. First was when, after he had talked to his mother about her time in a gulag years ago, and how she survived, and he was sitting on the couch with her, and he told her that "he was in trouble", and she started to cry, while he just say there. Most of it was wordless, but it just hit on so many emotions. Poor Mrs. Burov. Following that, I thought the scene between Oleg and his dad, where he admits that he did something that could get them all in trouble, and his father says he is going to help him, not because Oleg is his son, because "your good" just kills me. Olegs dad was always such a stoic hard liner, and he and Oleg never seemed all that close, but right there, you really did see just a man who loved his son, not just as his kid, but as a person he respects, and it was so touching and real. 

[Chaos Theory]

I think The Americans was at its absolute best with the entire Martha gets found out storyline.   It was a slow boil from finding the pen to what is probably my favorite three episodes of the entire series Clark’s Place, The Rat, and Travel Agents.

I also really love when Paige finally asks her parent what the hell they are hiding and they tell her they are Russian Spies.  

But the only two times I have actually cried was during START during the phone call to Henry and when Paige was standing on the platform so I will put them on the list for making by cold dead heart feel something.

 

i know people talk about the Do Robots Dream of Electric Sheep Episode mostly about Elizabeth but I love Martha talking to Clark about the Mail Robot and how “Poor Gaad” has been under so much stress.

.  

Edited June 4, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The entire Martha leaving the US run of episodes was amazing. I really had no idea what was going to happen, and I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Definitely a highlight of the whole series, and of television as a whole, in my opinion. It was so tragic, while also being exciting and there was an amazing mix of slow creeping fear, followed by OMG jaw droppers. It was just amazingly written and acted throughout. 

The whole Martha storyline was like the heart of the show. We talked about how it was hard to understand what Paige was doing and why but Martha was a similar situation and it totally made sense.

I also agree about the Burov family. But also good to remember they didn't seem to start out that way. They got closer as they came to understand each other and admitted to their painful past.

That, too, really goes to the heart of the show. It comes out again and again. Things that look like happy families and relationships are never real. When people work through the problems they're closer.

[Umbelina]

I loved when Philip beat the shit out of the pedophile that hit on 13 year old Paige in the department store too, and stabbing him in the balls with the BBQ fork was priceless.

The call back from the framing of the painting Elizabeth took, to Elizabeth in that train window was just stunning.  Both screaming in silent pain.

The moment Elizabeth becomes one of the women in pain the artist painted.  The reflection in the misty window of the train so like Erika's paintings, and the hand raised, just like the one over her bed...

Edited June 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

I've been rewatching s1, and this really stuck out to me as so incredible- In the episode where Philip teams up with Irina for that mission out of town, when he and Elizabeth were on the rocks after he found out she'd been informing on him, Elizabeth calls him up to tell him she misses him and to come home. He's in bed with Irina at the time- omg, the look on his face as he's listening to her, is one of the greatest bits of acting from him on the show to me. Like, he can barely say anything, and he just looks completely gobsmacked. You can read the sheer disbelief and amazement that this woman he's been one-sided completely in love with for years is actually reaching out to him and being vulnerable and reciprocating anything like what he feels for her, probably for the first time, mingled with the Oh Shit Instant Regret of just having betrayed her by sleeping with his ex, and the confusion and guilt and love is all so completely present. OMG, it's perfect. 

[scartact]

I just realized have a dark fondness for Elizabeth's jealousy of Martha, like the weird inappropriateness of Martha telling who she believes is Clark's sister that her brother is an animal in bed! Like, who does that?! That ice cold looks Elizabeth shoots Philip when his actions feel inscrutable and he's on the phone with Martha in Clark's Place. Her calling Martha "your wife" to Philip.

All this to say that the Martha storyline really did add something to the show, didn't it?

[SusanSunflower]

I always thought it was fitting (and a bit ironic) that Phillip could really "just be himself" with Martha, who was not always eying him suspiciously or appraisingly.  He was the man Martha had been waiting for and she was happy to make him dinner and make as much wild and crazy love as they could fit in a night.  If he tensed up, she would probably change the subject. In comparison to "Life with Elizabeth" since the beginning, it must have felt like such a relief to be "loved" unconditionally ... (Granted she was being herself and he was being Phillip, the Silly-Putty Man, willing to be pretty much just-the-man-you-want ... which of course was a role he had been playing with E. for years)  

Still, the look of relief and relaxation when he "came home" to Martha was palpable ...  oh gee, no kids too! 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I always thought it was fitting (and a bit ironic) that Phillip could really "just be himself" with Martha, who was not always eying him suspiciously or appraisingly.  He was the man Martha had been waiting for and she was happy to make him dinner and make as much wild and crazy love as they could fit in a night.  If he tensed up, she would probably change the subject. In comparison to "Life with Elizabeth" since the beginning, it must have felt like such a relief to be "loved" unconditionally ... (Granted she was being herself and he was being Phillip, the Silly-Putty Man, willing to be pretty much just-the-man-you-want ... which of course was a role he had been playing with E. for years)  

Still, the look of relief and relaxation when he "came home" to Martha was palpable ...  oh gee, no kids too! 

But Philip was never "himself" with Martha. He was Clark, the uptight and upright DOJ guy who was shyly in love with Martha and chivalrous except in bed. Clark wasn't a murderer, he wasn't a sex worker, he wasn't Russian, he wasn't a spy. Philip was himself with *Elizabeth*. He was tense with her, he fought with her, he withdrew from her, he enjoyed her company, he laughed with her, he stared into her eyes a lot when they had sex. He could talk about his actual past and what he was actually doing in his life. Clark lied all the time. He didn't even particularly like having sex the way Martha liked it, judging by how little he was into recreating it with Elizabeth and how not into it he seemed doing the Kama Sutra.

I think relief was the last thing he ever felt in Martha's presence. Around her he not only had to be constantly on his guard and working, he was more and more guilt-ridden for what he was doing to her. I can't think of a single time with Martha he seemed remotely relaxed or happy. His biggest moment of relief, imo, came from when he sent her off and could stop worrying about her. I think there was more of Philip's real self in Kimmy even than with Martha.

I actually think one of the things that always defined their relationship was that Philip never became just the man you want with Elizabeth because she didn't fall for it and it didn't make her fall for him. I think even the actor said that the closest you ever see to "the real guy" is the person Philip is with Elizabeth.

[Erin9]

I’m going to start by trying to leave S6 out of it. Because that list would just be too long as a starter!! 

Lots of favorites have been listed. 

I loved Elizabeth telling Philip to come home in Russian after she’d been shot. And the choice to have her say it in Russian just made it so much better- really emphasized how much it meant to her. I would have liked a few more moments like that. 

One of the few funny moments I remember from S3 is Philip coming home after having smoked pot with Kimmie, suggesting they smoke the leftovers and Elizabeth asking if he was high. Most of the smoking chat was pretty light hearted too. Although like most things, something serious entered into the conversation. 

Oleg’s father defying the government and giving his son the military salute he deserved. Heartbreaking. The actor who played Igor was really amazing. I always felt how deeply he loved his sons. 

Gaad’s horror when he realized Martha was the rat. 

[Umbelina]

Philip was himself with Martha a couple of times though.  He began to talk about his childhood with her (a highly edited version.)

Philip's gift was mixing truth (sincerity) with manipulation.

I think he felt Martha was a good friend that he used, he admired parts of her very much.  He didn't love her in a husbandly way, but he loved her for who she was. 

[SusanSunflower]

Oh, I forgot that I don't find P&E particularly romantic despite more recent warming and have always seen Phillip (particularly in the early days and before we met them) as living with a woman who really did.not.love.him**  and who, particularly given her competitive nature and belief in her own self-sufficiency, could make Phillip's life miserable ... so when the series begins, he's been walking on egg-shells for a very long time.  They've settled into their "amicable" routine but she's the "kitten with a whip" and he knows peace depends on making her happy ...  and she takes that for granted ...   ** she might dole out sex to have children or as a thank-you or get what she wanted and yes, he did desire her. 

In contrast, Martha is interested in making Clark happy and simply -- to put it bluntly -- enjoying being having a boyfriend and then a **Husband**... soon to have a child and .... she's been dreaming of this all her life and she's not eager to find fault .... She doesn't challenge Clark ... and there being no kids, there are no parenting issues. 

I thought Clark was surprised (as were we all mostly) at what hopes and dreams and aspirations this "regular person" Martha had ... there was no minefield or eggshells ....  

But, nevermind. 

ETA:  It was not that he was p*ssy-whipped, but this was a pragmatic and strategic decision on Phillips part to keep the working partnership functioning .... again, hell on earth and open hostility needed to be avoided to carry out the KGB missions. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Erin9]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Philip was himself with Martha a couple of times though.  He began to talk about his childhood with her (a highly edited version.)

Philip's gift was mixing truth (sincerity) with manipulation.

I think he felt Martha was a good friend that he used, he admired parts of her very much.  He didn't love her in a husbandly way, but he loved her for who she was. 

I think that’s a good sum up. I’m not sure he thought of her as a friend, but at the least he sincerely cared for her and admired things about her. I believe Philip when he said Stan was his friend. Martha though? Gotta think on that. 

I don’t think he much enjoyed having to spend time with her though because it was time away from his real family. 

[SusanSunflower]

I think he had curiosity about "how the other half lived" ... since his only experience of marriage was what he had with Elizabeth ... which was an arranged marriage that had borne children but wasn't intimate.... With Martha, Clark had a woman desperate to be intimate and to explore intimacy and sex ... quite a contrast.  That relationship could have been very different if Martha were a different sort of woman ... I think Phillip was stunned to see how willing Martha was to trust him (even when she shouldn't) because to her, via her American values, "that's how a "good wife" acts."

I thought their relationship was very interesting in its contrast to P&E .... 

Edited June 4, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

In contrast, Martha is interested in making Clark happy and simply -- to put it bluntly -- enjoying being having a boyfriend and then a **Husband**... soon to have a child and .... she's been dreaming of this all her life and she's not eager to find fault .... She doesn't challenge Clark ... and there being no kids, there are no parenting issues. 

She's definitely all that, but that doesn't mean he can be himself. There's tons of minefields and eggshells. They come up all the time when she wants to have kids or get a different job or stop bugging her boss or ambush him with her parents or see his toupee or confront him with Walter Taffet guy or wants to tell people they're married and eventually live together. Plus he doesn't want to be away from his kids.

I think Alison Wright once compared her situation to the wife of a famous serial killer who said she loved her husband and hated the man (meaning the killer) who took him away. Philip/Mischa is the man who took her husband, Clark, away.

24 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I thought Clark was surprised (as were we all mostly) at what hopes and dreams and aspirations this "regular person" Martha had ... there was no minefield or eggshells ....  

But he's also sabotaging every single one of those hopes and dreams and aspirations without Martha knowing it.

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Philip was himself with Martha a couple of times though.  He began to talk about his childhood with her (a highly edited version.)

Although even Sandra got a less edited version than Martha in fact! I agree he did love what she was and thought she was worthy of being protected and loved. She just mostly needed protection from him.

Sometimes I think that to Philip, people like Martha represented the best humanity had to offer, the kind of people he'd like to fight for. The more he liked her, imo, the more he thought she deserved better than him.

Quote

I think Phillip was stunned to see how willing Martha was to trust him (even when she shouldn't) because to her, via her American values, "that's how a "good wife" acts."

TBF, there's not actually a ton of American wives who would think this was how a good wife acts. That's what made Martha the better source. Sandra wouldn't have put up with it, for instance.

Edited June 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

I remember "don't make me choose between you and my husband" as fairly common declaration of loyalty .... back when people took "til death we do part" and proclaimed they could not imagine separation or divorce .... Stand By Your Man ... was literal, and to me Martha embodied those, even in 1987, old-fashioned belief in the sanctity of marriage (which many newlyweds and born-again Christians still assert) ...  my memory is that we saw Martha on several occasions "surrender" to Clark's wishes/demands with an acknowledgment that she was taking a "leap of faith" because he was her husband and bonds of matrimony.  She forsook her parents, as I recall. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

I'm trying to picture Philip in 14 LONG years without any love from Elizabeth.  Talk about smitten!  Not many men could have dealt with that, just because they loved someone.

Paige was 13 when the show began, and it wasn't until he killed Timochev that Elizabeth finally broke off her love affair with Gregory, and said to Philip "it never really happened for us, but I feel like it is...now."

[hellmouse]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm trying to picture Philip in 14 LONG years without any love from Elizabeth.  Talk about smitten!  Not many men could have dealt with that, just because they loved someone.

Paige was 13 when the show began, and it wasn't until he killed Timochev that Elizabeth finally broke off her love affair with Gregory, and said to Philip "it never really happened for us, but I feel like it is...now."

I think he was devoted to the cause, and cared deeply about doing a good job. Once they had children, he probably not only loved them but felt loved in return.  Honestly, lots of married couples can fall into a rut where they are not intimate but they are connected simply because they live together and share children. 

But I think you're right that it must have been very painful for him. We see that in that episode where she announces that she's ready to have children. The look he gives her makes it seem like this was something he had tried to broach with her before, and always been rejected. And then in the episode when Gregory tells him all about how Elizabeth confided in him - the look on Philip's face is one of excruciating pain.  

And to bring it back on topic, that scene - between Philip and Gregory - is one I didn't really appreciate the first time I watched it. I didn't understand just how devastated Philip was as he listened to Gregory because I didn't understand how much he loved Elizabeth. On rewatch, his reaction in that scene is really powerful. 

[SusanSunflower]

"Old habits die hard" .... even with the thawing and the "new appreciation" ... imho, Elizabeth was still pretty chilly (even with the kids) preferring (in early years) to retire to the master bedroom and read a book ... 

Between Elizabeth's bad-mouthing and doubt-raising about Phillip with Claudia and Gabriel (and I'm not positive of the seasons  AND always attributed to her deep seated approval needs rather than trying to f**ck over Phillip -- even if she had that effect)  ... this was never some equal-partner high-trust mutual-aid society ... beyond a few happy intervals of sexual afterglow ...  

I sort of liked the competitive / mind-game aspect because, as I said, Phillip was no door-mat and he knew well his mind-manipulation game and that he could get what he wanted (if he worked for it)  -- there was a Mr. and Mrs. Smith aspect of them both manipulating the other ... 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm trying to picture Philip in 14 LONG years without any love from Elizabeth.  Talk about smitten!  Not many men could have dealt with that, just because they loved someone.

This is one of the things I have no idea how to picture--exactly how their relationship worked for all those years. We see the moment when she says she's ready to have kids, basically telling Philip that his stud duties are now beginning--and that's just got to have been nauseating for him. But it seems like when they're working they always click--they have to be able to rely on each other like partners so they can't let personal hurts come through that much. There had to be times when they shared triumphs and scrapes together etc.

Philip seems very good at living on scraps, but living on them is different than begging for them. Their whole relationship is really built on their differences and the two of them appreciating what the other brings to the table both as an agent and as a parent. I can easily picture her enjoying whatever she enjoyed about Philip while also telling herself and him that this didn't mean she was interested in him that way or loved him--the Cause came first. (Of course, she said the same thing to Gregory in a different way--Gregory actually put Elizabeth in control more than Philip did when you think about it.)

With Philip? I don't know how he imagined things. He knew she didn't love him. But in some ways he didn't really love her yet either. He was smitten with her but until they were really in a relationship he couldn't really know her enough to love her the way he eventually did.

7 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

And to bring it back on topic, that scene - between Philip and Gregory - is one I didn't really appreciate the first time I watched it. I didn't understand just how devastated Philip was as he listened to Gregory because I didn't understand how much he loved Elizabeth. On rewatch, his reaction in that scene is really powerful. 

I also always remember the scene afterwards where Elizabeth is trying to explain herself and she says she was living in a strange country and a strange house with a strange man. When she says "a strange man" his head shoots up, presumably at the idea that this woman is calling him a stranger when they would have known each other and presumably training together for years at that point. But she still saw him as the strange man and Gregory as the guy she could talk to in the US.

[Umbelina]

Later, she asked him if he every faked it lovemaking with her.  He said he did.

I'd imagine a lot of that was during the "I love someone else, but we are required to have two children years."

I wonder if she would have just had the kids with her love, Gregory, if he were only the same color as Philip?

Edited June 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if she would have just had the kids with her love, Gregory, if he were only the same color as Philip?

It's a good question but I would actually say no. Because that would be making them even more real. If she cared enough to go against the Centre's orders by having kids by a different person they would be Gregory's kids. He might very well start making demands on her about them if they were his.

Most importantly it would defeat the purpose of Gregory who was supposed to symbolize her "real" life, which did not include children. Gregory was the guy she ran to to admit that she couldn't face having these kids and who agreed that she should be ready to sacrifice them for the Cause.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, I thought Gregory embodied her "Communist Ideals" ,,, black liberation, anti-imperialism, egalitarianism .... that all sort of vanished once he died and she could then settle into a very real and very very comfortable life of American affluence.   

I read an article (  http://blog.victimsofcommunism.org/spies-like-us-the-morality-of-the-americans/ )) obviously an anti-communist site that said 

 

Quote

Philip and Elizabeth, who were trained to be the new breed of Soviet Man, constantly find themselves struggling with the sacrifice demanded of them for the cause of international communism. The care and worry about the rightness of their mission and the state of their own souls constantly weighs heavily on their minds. Nowhere is this better expressed than in their own family. They love their children and wish nothing but happiness and a bright future for them. However, their Soviet masters see the children as assets to be exploited: two natural-born American citizens who can be employed by any agency and obtain the most vital of state secrets. As the children move into adolescence, the parental love Philip and Elizabeth have for them begins to outweigh their love of the state and the mission they serve, prompting them to level warnings at their KGB bosses that their children are off limits.

As intelligent and ideological as Philip and Elizabeth are, they seemed to have completely misunderstood, or forgotten altogether, that the state was a part of the family in the Soviet Union. The Communist Party formed the third leg of the “Red Triangle” which connected parents to their children. Russian historian Mikhail Heller notes that the family, as any good communist knew, was a “family collective” which was “proclaimed to be ‘a family of a superior kind’” – and one completely at the mercy of the Party. It was the Party that decided all familial questions and regulated even the most intimate relationships. (Soviet citizens used to joke that the USSR “had organized the manufacture of triple beds because ‘Lenin is always with us.’”) Philip and Elizabeth’s boss reminds them: “[Your daughter] isn’t just yours, she belongs to the cause. The world. We all do. You haven’t forgotten that, have you?”

Paige and Henry show not-the-slightest-trace of the "new man" consciousness (which i remember arising in Cuba with an essay/book by Che Guevara in the late 60's)  ... their level of self-absorption and conformist ambitions is indistinguishable from the 1980's me-generation.   

I've never seen a hint of "communist values" in P or E except for E's infatuation with Gregory ....  complicated by her so conventiently being already  married and "unable" to follow her true love/ bliss. 

p.s. poor "smitten" Phillip and his blue balls .... really?  Philip as SOL eunuch because he got a bad match from Center?  Phillip who had known and loved Irina honestly ... another emotional history difference between P&E discussed at the time.   

eta:  How much was "the thaw" also stimulated by Irina's reappearance and Elizabeth's sudden realization that Phillip was a separate individual rather than her duty-bound "husband" 

Edited June 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[scartact]

46 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm trying to picture Philip in 14 LONG years without any love from Elizabeth.  Talk about smitten!  Not many men could have dealt with that, just because they loved someone.

I wonder all the time about how their dynamic was pre-Pilot! There had to be some degree of comfort/familiarity that exists in working 14 years with each other. You don't necessarily need love to cultivate that familiarity. But anyway, I digress.

On the subject of Gregory, I really loved Gregory and Only You back in season one. I appreciated that the show never tried to downplay his importance to Elizabeth as her first love and confidante, even after death, but that didn't mean she didn't love Philip. I also really liked how he was brought up in The Magic of David Copperfield V during their big fight in that episode (which is also my FAVORITE fight they had on the show!) because of course Elizabeth was thinking about Gregory to some degree as the Martha exfiltration plot went down. I also found it interesting when he showed up in Liz's dream in the finale (initially, I went WTF, but then I caught on).

[Umbelina]

Philip and Elizabeth never had a chance to really love each other, because they were ordered to BE people they weren't.  Once Nadezdah and Misha finally met, in that garage, after Philip killed Timochev, they were able to see their true selves for the first time.  Love grew from there.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Philip and Elizabeth never had a chance to really love each other, because they were ordered to BE people they weren't.  Once Nadezdah and Misha finally met, in that garage, after Philip killed Timochev, they were able to see their true selves for the first time.  Love grew from there.

It always seemed important that Philip was assigned to Elizabeth so to her he was another thing she didn't choose and potentially another man who thought he was entitled to her. He made himself somebody she could love by always allowing her to make decisions about sex but by killing Timoshev he really shows that he doesn't think anyone else is entitled to her either. Elizabeth had to have already had feelings for him before that but it's not until Philip puts her above everything and shows he thinks what happened to her with Timoshev was wrong that she can make an actual move on it.

Things change for Philip then too. It's only after they start a relationship that he learns about Gregory and her reporting on her earlier and he doesn't just accept those things so he doesn't lose her. He respects her right to never be with him if she doesn't want to be with him, but if she does want to be with him she has to say so. He's *not* Gregory who has a relationship solely on Elizabeth's terms. He will call whatever bluff she makes and walk away

[Umbelina]

Nah, I see it just slightly differently.

She wasn't Elizabeth when Timochev raped her.  She was Nadezdah.  Philip killed the man who raped Nadezdah, not Elizabeth.

It was the first time he saw actually saw something from her life as Nadezdah, and he loved and defended and avenged her, even when they both knew she could have killed him herself.  In that moment, Philip also gave up something enormous.  She had just given Philip permission to "walk him over to Stan" defect, do whatever he wanted.  He wanted Timochev to pay for what he did to her, more than he wanted his own freedom, his life.

It kind of parallels what Philip did when beating up that pedophile really.  Mostly though, it was his first glimpse of the "REAL" person before they made her into Elizabeth, so his love felt more real to her.

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It kind of parallels what Philip did when beating up that pedophile really.  Mostly though, it was his first glimpse of the "REAL" person before they made her into Elizabeth, so his love felt more real to her.

Was just reading the Gregory thread so was thinking about him and before he dies he tells her not to be with anyone who doesn't love her strength. Elizabeth's rape was the moment she felt weakest. She never told anyone about it. When she told Paige about it she rejected any comfort and just insisted she'd learned to be strong so it couldn't happen again.

But if this is the first time he's seen the person she was there, that girl in that moment wasn't strong enough. In the garage she beats Timoschev up but stops short of killing him and drops her weapon in defeat, telling Philip to take him to the Americans like there's nothing more to fight for. But then Philip steps up and just kills the guy for what he did. He's not her trainer who stood by and let his guy rape her. He's not looking at her with sympathy like he thinks she's sad and weak and needs protecting. It's more like if she'd had an ally in that moment back then. If he's seeing the girl she was for the first time, his reaction to that girl makes her feel good about it.

[Razzberry]

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think he had curiosity about "how the other half lived" ... since his only experience of marriage was what he had with Elizabeth ... which was an arranged marriage that had borne children but wasn't intimate.... With Martha, Clark had a woman desperate to be intimate and to explore intimacy and sex ... quite a contrast.  That relationship could have been very different if Martha were a different sort of woman ... I think Phillip was stunned to see how willing Martha was to trust him (even when she shouldn't) because to her, via her American values, "that's how a "good wife" acts."

I thought their relationship was very interesting in its contrast to P&E .... 

That's what made it so fascinating.   Just going by what I saw on the screen, I don't believe Philip thought of Martha as simply work, .  The sex may not have been as good but as my ex-husband used to tell me, a man needs to feel needed.  Philip was no exception.  He liked that feeling, whether he acknowledged it or not.

[scartact]

I always bought that Philip had deep feelings for Martha, and maybe part of those deep feelings is some modicum of love for her (as Clark), though I never thought he was in love with Martha. But, you don't [fake-]marry someone and spend all that time together intimately to not feel some type of way about them. Er, unless quite possibly you're Elizabeth, but then again she's a great compartmentalizer and Philip... is decidedly not (nor did he necessarily want to be after awhile).

I kinda love @sistermagpie's interpretation that possibly to Philip, Martha represented some kind of goodness in the world; that's quite possibly why he worked incredibly hard to get her exfiltrated. I think perhaps on some level, Philip admired and maybe even related to how frequently she put love in front of all else, because Philip does that quite a bit with Elizabeth (him joining her in Harvest being one example).

[Plums]

I agree with everyone about that stretch of episodes of the Martha plot from when they discover the pen to when she's exfiltrated as being basically the pinnacle string of episodes. "Poor Martha" was just such an engrossing plot, and it's amazing that it started from such a silly place and had so many comedic elements to it at first, then evolved into what it became. 

I think Philip did come to deeply care about Martha as a human being, if never crossing that border into romantic feelings. Her desire to foster and adopt annoyed him for the inconvenience it brought to the operation but simultaneously, he was genuinely moved by her capacity to love and couldn't hide his admiration of it. He respected her enough to reveal more to her about himself than any of his other targets, being totally honest with her at the end. He allowed himself to be genuinely vulnerable with her sometimes, and she could tell the difference and was moved by it whenever it happened. And he was very genuinely extremely depressed after exfiltrating her and having been the means of ruining her life. 

One thing that always struck me, when Martha asked what his real name was, and he immediately said "philip". She had to clarify she meant his Russian name. I think he was being honest when he answered the first time. He really did think of his real name as Philip. I think it will be a terrible struggle for him to readjust to life in Russia and discard that identity. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Razzberry said:

That's what made it so fascinating.   Just going by what I saw on the screen, I don't believe Philip thought of Martha as simply work, .  The sex may not have been as good but as my ex-husband used to tell me, a man needs to feel needed.  Philip was no exception.  He liked that feeling, whether he acknowledged it or not.

 

I honestly think it was the opposite. He was needed by Elizabeth as a partner. Martha needed him to protect her. That inspired all his protective instincts--the same thing that seems to have made him a spy and a Socialist and made him beat him creepers at the mall etc. etc. 

I think the relief here is Elizabeth. She's the one who takes care of herself and can actually take care of him. Martha's a fragile innocent that he's hurting and also trying to protect. He's got plenty of those already: Anneleise, later Kimmy, etc.

26 minutes ago, Plums said:

One thing that always struck me, when Martha asked what his real name was, and he immediately said "philip". She had to clarify she meant his Russian name. I think he was being honest when he answered the first time. He really did think of his real name as Philip. I think it will be a terrible struggle for him to readjust to life in Russia and discard that identity. 

Though when he got married he used Mikhail. I think it's hard to tell how he relates to them. I mean, with Martha he didn't realize she knew he was Russian and for over a decade Philip has been his real name. 

It was interesting that Paige specifically asked them if these felt like their real names. They both said yes, but Philip added that he missed his real name too. (This was when he was thinking they were going to move back soon.)

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, Plums said:

I agree with everyone about that stretch of episodes of the Martha plot from when they discover the pen to when she's exfiltrated as being basically the pinnacle string of episodes. "Poor Martha" was just such an engrossing plot, and it's amazing that it started from such a silly place and had so many comedic elements to it at first, then evolved into what it became. 

I think Philip did come to deeply care about Martha as a human being, if never crossing that border into romantic feelings. Her desire to foster and adopt annoyed him for the inconvenience it brought to the operation but simultaneously, he was genuinely moved by her capacity to love and couldn't hide his admiration of it. He respected her enough to reveal more to her about himself than any of his other targets, being totally honest with her at the end. He allowed himself to be genuinely vulnerable with her sometimes, and she could tell the difference and was moved by it whenever it happened. And he was very genuinely extremely depressed after exfiltrating her and having been the means of ruining her life. 

One thing that always struck me, when Martha asked what his real name was, and he immediately said "philip". She had to clarify she meant his Russian name. I think he was being honest when he answered the first time. He really did think of his real name as Philip. I think it will be a terrible struggle for him to readjust to life in Russia and discard that identity. 

The best dramatic arcs almost always contain significant humor, because real human beings are damned funny. This is in good measure what helps make Better Call Saul so enjoyable.

[Erin9]

The more I think about it- I think Elizabeth and Philip needed each other to “do life.” S6 established that pretty clearly. Whatever it is they do- doing it together makes it work. The center did make a good match, even if they didn’t intend for it to include love. 

I think everyone likes to feel needed. But- I think it must have been exhausting to be needed to the point he was with Martha by the end. 

On another topic- I liked the scene from season 3 (I think)- when Philip comes home with pizza and finds out everyone has taken care of themselves and Elizabeth is out. I felt bad for him- but it led to him taking it to Stan’s where he proceeded to complain about his issues- arguing with Elizabeth about the kids- ie Paige, everyone being busy. We rarely saw Philip seek Stan out. Usually Stan was the one. This was a nice switch. 

I liked Elizabeth being so thoughtful about Philip’s concerns about Mischa in Afghanistan that she asked for Gabriel’s help. Gabriel was surprised too. I liked him- but he wasn’t above exploiting their issues as needed. Which Philip totally got. I think Elizabeth would get that NOW.

Philip saying he loved Elizabeth when she asked if in a different life he’d go with Martha. He was so shocked and bewildered. She hadn’t understood their relationship at all. He cared; he wasn’t in love. 

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

On another topic- I liked the scene from season 3 (I think)- when Philip comes home with pizza and finds out everyone has taken care of themselves and Elizabeth is out. I felt bad for him- but it led to him taking it to Stan’s where he proceeded to complain about his issues- arguing with Elizabeth about the kids- ie Paige, everyone being busy. We rarely saw Philip seek Stan out. Usually Stan was the one. This was a nice switch. 

And iirc Paige is in her phase where she's rolling her eyes at his attempts to be jokey dad. I felt like this was recreated in S6, though of course he was no longer doing dad jokes. 

11 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I liked Elizabeth being so thoughtful about Philip’s concerns about Mischa in Afghanistan that she asked for Gabriel’s help. Gabriel was surprised too. I liked him- but he wasn’t above exploiting their issues as needed. Which Philip totally got. I think Elizabeth would get that NOW.

I do love how surprised I think Gabriel was because it really did seem to me that he told Philip about Mischa in such a manipulative way. First he's telling him, "I didn't want to tell you this now..." as if he has to tell them in context of trying to force him to sleep with Kimmy. Like he's saying, "I didn't want to tell you this at a time when it's most convenient for my own agenda..." So he tells him and until then Philip hasn't told Elizabeth what Irina said--he doesn't know if he should even believe her. But Gabriel seems to make it something he has to take seriously. I think Gabriel telling Philip is something he thinks will separate them. He expects Philip to privately brood over the idea and let it influence his actions but of course not tell Elizabeth.

Instead, Elizabeth comes marching in all earnestly the next day asking if he can get the kid out of the army. Gabriel must have been taken aback at just how much things had changed.

Philip and Elizabeth really did learn and change from their S1 selves. Philip didn't always tell Elizabeth a secret right away (he doesn't tell her about Mischa after Irina does and doesn't tell her about Oleg right away after she's not open to it) but he is the one to tell her. Likewise Elizabeth doesn't consider ratting Philip out to Claudia. It's not even played as if she's conflicted or hiding a secret. It's just not even in her mind.

11 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Philip saying he loved Elizabeth when she asked if in a different life he’d go with Martha. He was so shocked and bewildered. She hadn’t understood their relationship at all. He cared; he wasn’t in love. 

I love how he literally says "Are you crazy?" And when she tries to still hang onto it by saying Philip loves them both differently he's like no, it's not different. It's not there.

That's another part of the Martha arc that works so well because it is believable that Elizabeth misunderstands and gets jealous and insecure. Especially since the way she tries to raise the subject with him over the years always makes him defensive because he doesn't get where she's coming from and that makes her even more secure.

[Razzberry]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I love how he literally says "Are you crazy?" And when she tries to still hang onto it by saying Philip loves them both differently he's like no, it's not different. It's not there.

 Exactly like any guy would when accused of that, not that he didn't mean it.  Maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit for nuance and depth in those scenes. I rarely read what they have to say because it should stand on its own, showing not telling.  He wasn't in love with Martha romantically, but Elizabeth isn't the jealous type so maybe she wasn't being completely unreasonable.  I don't see them lasting a year in Russia alone together anyway.  :o 

.  

[SusanSunflower]

It's scarier to consider that Elizabeth could not imagine Phil caring "so much" if he wasn't in love with Martha ... y'know, because she was an innocent bystander whose entire life had been blown up, blowing herself away from her family and all.known.things including a long term job she loved .... no biggie... just kill the bitch. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

 Exactly like any guy would when accused of that, not that he didn't mean it.  Maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit for nuance and depth in those scenes. I rarely read what they have to say because it should stand on its own, showing not telling.  He wasn't in love with Martha romantically, but Elizabeth isn't the jealous type so maybe she wasn't being completely unreasonable.  I don't see them lasting a year in Russia alone together anyway.  :o 

.  

I don't think she was being unreasonable at all. You can see why she feels that way. She's insecure, first, thinking that since Philip is a softer person that he'd prefer someone nicer. But also whenever she tries to bring up her insecurity he think she's making fun of him or Martha or whatever so he gets defensive and that makes her insecure. 

I don't think the performance suggests that he's covering anything up, though. He's genuinely confused when she first starts asking. But then, that's also just MR who's always said without hesitation that he didn't love Martha at all so it wasn't an issue. But I totally believe her as a real rival in Elizabeth's mind. I would actually disagree she's not the jealous type. She seems like she totally is that with Philip. She doesn't mind honeytrapping but she seems very sensitive about people he cares about in any way.

1 minute ago, SusanSunflower said:

It's scarier to consider that Elizabeth could not imagine Phil caring "so much" if he wasn't in love with Martha ... y'know, because she was an innocent bystander whose entire life had been blown up, blowing herself away from her family and all.known.things including a long term job she loved .... no biggie. 

Yeah, I thought that was the whole thing about their fight. She could only understand it via Gregory, someone that she cared about so much it was hard to sacrifice him. But Philip was like, "She's a human being." It was the principle of the thing. He didn't have to love her in a possessive way to object to it. It was just wrong. He no longer accepted that hey, you lose assets and that's how it goes. Maybe that was okay for somebody like Fred or Gregory who chose this but Martha certainly didn't!

[scartact]

For Philip, Martha's a counterpoint to Elizabeth in a lot of ways, and so when presented with the "if you had a choice" option, as Elizabeth does to Philip, he absolutely rejects it. I think that definitively put an end for me the question of whether or not Philip was in love with Martha, and I almost feel like the show needed to air that out too to also conclusively answer that question. What I liked about that scene was just how sincere Elizabeth was, like she seemed really prepared to accept if Philip said he would go if given the choice. Plus, when Elizabeth was presented with the opportunity to kill Martha, she instead chose to disarm her so that she could take Martha back to the safe house. I think that's why in that episode, Gabriel and Elizabeth mention about a million times to Philip that if Martha responds otherwise, they would have to kill her.

[SusanSunflower]

I think we all figured Martha might well end up dead ... which would have been very difficult to accept ... but then we had surviving Tims to suggest that the writers would not subject US to that trauma .... by all that is logical and holy, the Tims should have met a swift end .... and the Jennings would have had to deal with that (wrt Paige) however they could manage .... but as long as the Tims breathed, I figured Martha was probably safe-enough, even if that other women died with the staged OD and her baby wisked off to (iic) a Cuban future.  

Yeah, I thought Martha might be finished off with malice by Elizabeth or even Gabriel .... just because she wouldn't sit down and shut up and accept her fate ... how dare she object ... 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think we all figured Martha might well end up dead ... which would have been very difficult to accept ... but then we had surviving Tims to suggest that the writers would not subject US to that trauma .... by all that is logical and holy, the Tims should have met a swift end .... and the Jennings would have had to deal with that (wrt Paige) however they could manage .... but as long as the Tims breathed, I figured Martha was probably safe-enough, even if that other women died with the staged OD and her baby wisked off to (iic) a Cuban future.  

 

It's kind of funny now when you remember Philip didn't want to kill them because eventually, if Paige became a spy, she'd figure out they'd done it. But maybe not...

[JennyMominFL]

Nina's death scene will haunt me together. Martha's escape... That while period of the show,, is one of the best i've ever seen.

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