Once Upon A...SHOULDA HAPPENED THIS WAY!

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 The whole Emma/Neal/Henry/Tamara thing has never really worked for me. I feel like Neal has way too big an emotional hold on Emma for the circumstances. They weren't together that long, and then they were apart for more than a decade. Yeah, she had his baby, but she didn't raise his baby, so she didn't have that reminder around. If she still had strong emotions for him, they'd have been negative because of his betrayal. Given everything that happened, and given her personality, I don't at all see the "I never really stopped loving you" thing, especially after their reunion, when he was such a jerk to her the whole time. The idea that he had to send her to jail for her to achieve her destiny makes no sense because there's no reason that she couldn't have been the Savior after they lived a quiet life in Tallahassee for a decade, especially if he knew what she'd have to do -- "Hey, babe, I hear Maine in the fall is spectacular. Why don't we take a road trip to celebrate your 28th birthday?" The only reason it couldn't have worked that way is if he would have got in her way because he wanted to avoid his father. So, basically, he let her go to jail for his crime because he was too big a weenie to face his father. That doesn't exactly inspire the "I never stopped loving you" response. Plus, he threw her under the bus with Henry and let Henry blame her for Henry not knowing about his father rather than owning up to the way he treated her, and he was a real jerk about shoving Tamara in her face. If she'd been the one to dump him, I could see him being all "Hey, here's my fiancee." But he dumped her, and yet he's still flaunting his fiancee and accusing Emma of being jealous. Her big "I love you" at the portal is so eyeroll-inducing because it seems more likely that her reaction to him would be "whew, dodged a bullet there!" I also find Henry's response to Tamara to be unlikely. Yeah, he was willing to help Emma try to spy on her, but it seems likely he'd have been a lot brattier, given that he had a big "you're not my real dad" hissy fit with Hook when he was a couple of years older, when Neal had been dead about a year, when he'd known Hook for some time and had been through adventures with him and had even picked out a house with him. An 11-year-old Henry who's been fantasizing about having a traditional family with his birth mom and dad and who's seen his parents reunited only to have his dad spring a surprise fiancee on them is probably going to have an epic brat attack. Then there's David's response. As nasty as he was to Hook for trying to help Emma, it's hard to imagine him being even remotely nice to Neal when he knew Neal got David's teenage daughter pregnant and then had nothing to do with her, even without him knowing about Neal's role in Emma going to jail.

 

This is why that arc never made any sense to me. They weren't together very long and ten years passed. That's a long time to supposedly still be in love with Neal. When she talked to Mary Margaret about one night stands being as far as she ever went in season one that made sense. Not the Emma is still in love with Neal but she let her guard down with Neal and he sent her to jail for his crimes and doesn't ever want to do that again. She trusted him and he sent her to jail. Why would she still be in love with him? That was crapping thing he did to her and what caused her to give up her child. Even after we get to meet Neal nothing about him is...well Charming. He refuses to take responsibility for what he did to her instead dismissing her concerns and acting like she's trying to ruin his relationship with Tamara. It would have been so nice if Emma had been allowed to say what she should have to that and everything in her situation. Yes,  he did let Henry blame her for not knowing Neal when that was all his fault not Emma's. Why do we want Emma or any woman to end up with him? Good thing Tamara turned out to be evil or she'd be too good for Neal. I don't understand the I love you or Neal's response. Yes he thought he was going to die but two minutes ago he was engaged to Tamara! It doesn't work that way. He had zero doubts, misgivings or any signs he was still in love with Emma or was starting to rethink his engagement. I agree Henry would have flipped out over Tamara. He's eleven years old and now has his mom and dad in his life. Of course he's going to be hoping and trying to pull a Hayley Mills and get his parents back together. He's going to be trying so hard to convince Neal and Emma to get back together.   

 

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As for the Cora death/dark heart plot ... I can kind of see why an idealistic kid like Henry might be stunned by Snow White killing someone. In most of the fairy tales, even if the villains get a comeuppance, it's seldom directly at the hands of the heroes, particularly the princesses. The king may order a fitting punishment, or else the villains fall into their own traps or rip themselves apart in a fit of temper when they lose. It seems like Henry's book does depict some of the war, but not any direct killing of specific, named characters. It's the response of the adults that doesn't quite ring true. David and Emma should have chimed in to correct Henry. And Snow had every right to be angry at Gepetto. It's not a sign of having a dark heart to be angry that a friend lied to you and that lie forced you to be separated from your newborn.

That does make sense to a point. Henry did know there was going to be a battle between his family and Cora and Regina. He really should have been terrified he was going to lose his family after just getting together with them. He should have been scared that Regina was going to kill them or be a part of it. He should have been wondering why she was apart of it? What happened to her being good? After Henry is surprised by Snow White killing Cora, his family should have talked to him. Remind him of the danger they were all in with Cora and how she had to be defeated. How in his stories sometimes the Heroes have to kill the bad guy, that there's not always another option. Some of Henry's reaction doesn't make sense but it makes even less sense that no one talks to him about it.

 

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And it's astonishing that there was really no reaction whatsoever to Regina's plan to murder them all and run away with Henry. Yeah, she ended up stopping the failsafe and nearly sacrificing herself to do so, but she didn't do it because she had a change of heart and realized she was wrong. She did it because it got hijacked and her plan was ruined. They could have been grateful that she helped stop it while still being horrified that she'd planned it in the first place and being concerned about what else she might do. That would have added an interesting layer of conflict to the Neverland story, where they had a common goal, but could they really trust her? Would she try to ditch them all and strand them there once she got Henry?

Yeah, everyone conveniently forget all about that detail. Afterwards she gets declared a hero. Ah, no she's not hero for stopping something she was going to do herself. At least with Hook he changed his mind. He turned around and came back. Regina never changed her mind. She never got the chance. She also only decided to do the failsafe after overhearing Charming and Snow talking about how they didn't want Regina to come back with them. How is this a surprise to her? Of course they don't want her to come back with them. She ripped apart their family. She murdered Snow's father and targeted Snow for decades. At this point after the Curse Regina has done nothing to earn anyone's trust or want her around. If anything she made it clear she still can't be trusted since she just sided with Cora. They shouldn't trust her now or in Neverland. They should have been suspicious and keeping an eye on her for signs she was going to take Henry and leave them all behind. Or kill them. 

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

More of 2B if the characters were allowed to behave like normal people and have reasonable emotional reactions:

This is what the show needed. It would have been so much better if they acted like normal people and had normal reactions.  

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

This is why that arc never made any sense to me. They weren't together very long and ten years passed. That's a long time to supposedly still be in love with Neal. When she talked to Mary Margaret about one night stands being as far as she ever went in season one that made sense. Not the Emma is still in love with Neal but she let her guard down with Neal and he sent her to jail for his crimes and doesn't ever want to do that again. She trusted him and he sent her to jail. Why would she still be in love with him? That was crapping thing he did to her and what caused her to give up her child. Even after we get to meet Neal nothing about him is...well Charming. He refuses to take responsibility for what he did to her instead dismissing her concerns and acting like she's trying to ruin his relationship with Tamara. It would have been so nice if Emma had been allowed to say what she should have to that and everything in her situation.

I think Emma's feelings about Neal make more sense in the context of her early life. Neal wasn't just Emma's first romantic love, he was the first person she had ever really loved in any way since maybe her first foster family in very early childhood. She's never even really had a friend before. So he's going to exert a more powerful influence than he otherwise might have.

I don't believe that Emma spent the next ten years actively in love with him. She probably did mostly think of him as "that bastard who sold me out." But I think because she never got any closure, there was always a part of her that held onto a belief that there was some mistake or misunderstanding, something that would justify what he seemed to have done. Or, maybe, a part of her that somehow blamed herself, and reasoned that he had left her, like all of those other potential families that wound up not wanting her, because she wasn't good enough in some way. 

Then when she finds out the truth, that actually plays into the "mistake" narrative. We can identify Neal's rationale as garbage, but suddenly, she can replace the story in which Neal cruelly abandoned her with a story in which she and Neal were pulled apart by the crazy magic forces that had screwed up so much of her life. Even as a part of her rejects that (you left me because Pinocchio told you to?!), a part of her buys into the justification.

I actually have a decent amount of sympathy for Neal myself, despite thinking he was totally wrong to leave Emma. To me, what Neal did there was a very Stiltskin thing to do: he embraced a self-serving justification for giving into fear. August's ridiculous claim that he was helping Emma by leaving her gave Neal permission to follow his instinct to get as far away from his past and his father as possible. That's not admirable, but it is human. The problem, as it often was on this show, is that it wasn't clear that the show consistently recognized how self-serving this was. Through 3A, I think it did, for the most part, but in 3B, suddenly Neal "didn't have a choice" and was beloved by people who by rights barely knew him. Whereas the show shouldn't have had to whitewash Neal's past and exaggerate his importance to acknowledge that he was (IMO) fundamentally a decent guy who, in the last months of his life, was trying to do the right thing, and ultimately died to help Emma and the others (and yes, he was largely to blame for the situation, but I don't think that negates his action in the final moment). 

Also one, very minor point: While Neal probably should have supported Emma when Henry was angry at her, it wasn't like Henry was angry that Emma had kept Neal from him, in which case Neal would have been obligated to set the record straight. Henry was angry because Emma had lied to him about who his father was altogether with the firefighter story. Neal telling Henry how he had betrayed Emma does not actually address that point, and I can understand if Neal felt it was too early to start putting himself forward as the voice of fatherly reason. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by companionenvy

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, everyone conveniently forget all about that detail. Afterwards she gets declared a hero.

That might have been one of my first big "wait, what?!?!" moments with Regina.  I had already experiences a few "hold on, this chick is evil, why should I be sad?" moments, especially with poor Greg, but that one was what would solidify the constant karma mirror that is Regina (karma bounces off her and hits people in the vicinity instead), and would go a long way to killing the show. She almost murdered everyone! The only reason she didnt was because she realized she would die too! Thats not being a hero, thats covering your own selfish ass! And no one ever called her on that, and she never showed any regret or tried to apologize! 

Of course, in the next arc, we find out that Regina is all #noregrets about any of her countless misdeeds and crimes against humanity, so I guess I can at least appreciate that they keep that consistent...

[Camera One]

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I had already experiences a few "hold on, this chick is evil, why should I be sad?" moments

The scary thing about this show is it WAS able to manipulate me, over and over again.  I actually did find myself feeling sad for Regina as she cried after she separated an innocent child from her father and even after she massacred a village.

If I didn't know better, A&E have a vault of hearts (ours) and they squeeze it whenever they need to.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Camera One

[daxx]

15 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I didn't know better, A&E have a vault of hearts (ours) and they squeeze it whenever they need to.

Well, I became emotionally attached to Emma at the cupcake scene so I never did feel sorry for Regina.

I do understand how that happens though the music, the setup, all is trying to make you feel sympathy for Regina.

I also think I practically hated Regina on sight, she reminded me vaguely of Lana in Smallville so I was very predisposed to strongly disliking her character.

[andromeda331]

9 minutes ago, daxx said:

Well, I became emotionally attached to Emma at the cupcake scene so I never did feel sorry for Regina.

I do understand how that happens though the music, the setup, all is trying to make you feel sympathy for Regina.

I also think I practically hated Regina on sight, she reminded me vaguely of Lana in Smallville so I was very predisposed to strongly disliking her character.

Emma was my favorite character followed by Snow. I never really felt sorry for Regina either. The only time I might have felt sorry for her was in the Stable boy when her mother killed Daniel. But that was ruined by her targeting Snow and that being the reason why she targeted Snow. That was a horrible reason to target a ten year old girl when she knew it was her mother who killed him. When she knew her mother was manipulative. Instead of targeting her mother no she decides to ruin a child's entire life. To murder her father, steal her home, her kingdom and everything she has and tries to murder many times. Why should I feel sorry for Regina? Had she not known that it was her mother and assumed it was Snow since she was the only other person she thought knew about Daniel or Snow did it because she really wanted Regina as her new mother I might have been sympathetic. But that's not what happened. That's even before they added village massacres to her list of crimes adding those made me hate her even more. Regina always knew what she was doing, she was giddy and happy as she committed her crimes. She sent children into the Blind Witch's home. She raped Graham for decades and murdered him when he dumped her. There was nothing sympathetic about her to me.    

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

or Snow did it because she really wanted Regina as her new mother

While it would by no means have solved everything, this alone would have been a very good change. Regina's response would still have been so wildly disproportionate as to be insane, but if Snow had told the secret for selfish reasons, especially if she had been a couple of years older, she would at least have been guilty of doing something that she knew was wrong. As it is, Snow's not even guilty of being a loose-lipped child; what she did was not only well-intentioned, but totally developmentally appropriate for a ten year old, as the question of what secrets you should and shouldn't keep is a pretty morally nuanced one that a child of that age is not equipped to handle.

[Camera One]

I actually didn't mind that Regina blamed Snow for something that wasn't totally her fault and I liked that Snow did it for what she thought was a good reason.  The Evil Queen was insane and that was part of the fairy tale.  The problem was how Regina continued to ignore Cora's role in it.  If they wanted to do that, they needed to show that Regina had a deeper bond with her mother and didn't want to blame her.  

Edited June 3, 2018 by Camera One

[companionenvy]

I don't think it was a problem if you wanted to keep the EQ as a villain. It was if you wanted to redeem her. 

[Inquirer]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think it was a problem if you wanted to keep the EQ as a villain. It was if you wanted to redeem her. 

Or if you wanted to redeem her through having her realize that she was crazy and completely wrong in who she assigned blame to. But bizarrely, that never happened.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Inquirer

[crash476]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I actually didn't mind that Regina blamed Snow for something that wasn't totally her fault and I liked that Snow did it for what she thought was a good reason.  The Evil Queen was insane and that was part of the fairy tale.  The problem was how Regina continued to ignore Cora's role in it.  If they wanted to do that, they needed to show that Regina had a deeper bond with her mother and didn't want to blame her.  

Maybe if the show had been run by competent people, then Regina's situation could have been framed as "Snow's an easier target then my mother who's an extremely powerful witch who would easily kill me in heartbeat" and it just festered over time. Throw in some situational learned helplessness, years of abuse, a desire to have a mother who genuinely loved her, resentment towards a child who had everything she didn't have, and Regina's grudge against Snow makes more sense in context. And then make sure to show that Regina is in the wrong, but in her mind it makes sense. It's twisted and hard to sympathize, let alone empathize, with, but better than what we got.

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Also one, very minor point: While Neal probably should have supported Emma when Henry was angry at her, it wasn't like Henry was angry that Emma had kept Neal from him, in which case Neal would have been obligated to set the record straight. Henry was angry because Emma had lied to him about who his father was altogether with the firefighter story. Neal telling Henry how he had betrayed Emma does not actually address that point, and I can understand if Neal felt it was too early to start putting himself forward as the voice of fatherly reason. 

I don't think Neal had to tell the whole story, but he should have had Emma's back. Something like, "I guess she told you what she did because she wanted you to have something to believe in, and I wasn't a hero at all. The truth would have been very disappointing for you. Since she'd tried to find me and couldn't, she must have believed you'd never meet me, so it was a safe white lie that would make you feel better about yourself."

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

She almost murdered everyone! The only reason she didnt was because she realized she would die too! Thats not being a hero, thats covering your own selfish ass! And no one ever called her on that, and she never showed any regret or tried to apologize! 

This is definitely one of those "characters not allowed to act like normal human beings" things that makes no sense if you think about it at all. This woman dedicated decades to trying to destroy them. She tried multiple times to murder them all. And then she just ... stops, but she never actually says that she's stopping or why she's stopping. There's never a moment of "I was wrong to target you because Cora was the one who killed Daniel." There's no "My response was entirely disproportionate to what you actually did to me." There's no "I'm so sorry for killing your father, separating you from your husband and daughter, and framing you for murder." There's not even a "I'm through trying to get revenge on you." Why would they trust her at all or feel at all safe around her, let alone be friends of any sort with her? How were they to know she was done and this wasn't just a ploy to get their guards down? From the way she talked, she never really did feel like what she'd done was wrong, which makes you wonder why she even bothered changing. She made a massive lifestyle change for no real reason. Most big changes like that require motivation, and about the only motivation she had was Henry -- but then she never told Henry she was done trying to murder his family.

18 hours ago, daxx said:

Well, I became emotionally attached to Emma at the cupcake scene so I never did feel sorry for Regina.

Ditto. There was never a point when I really felt sorry for Regina. By the time we saw Daniel's death, there was way too much water under that bridge for me to even feel sorry for her there. She was crying about not being able to murder someone, and then crying because the people she'd tried to murder didn't like her. Boo friggin hoo.

13 hours ago, companionenvy said:

As it is, Snow's not even guilty of being a loose-lipped child; what she did was not only well-intentioned, but totally developmentally appropriate for a ten year old, as the question of what secrets you should and shouldn't keep is a pretty morally nuanced one that a child of that age is not equipped to handle.

Plus, her only experience of a mother was her own mother, so she naturally assumed that Cora was like her mother. She had no way of knowing that Cora was an evil master manipulator who would do something so crazy as murder her daughter's boyfriend. Heck, most adults wouldn't have considered that a possibility.

It gets more galling when Regina herself, as an adult who knows exactly what Cora's like, is so easily manipulated and yet she never has a moment of "Oh, Snow didn't stand a chance!"

I do think Regina would have come across as a lot more justified (though still not to the extent of her actions) if Snow had shared the secret maliciously. And her redemption might have worked (though perhaps not to Queen of the Universe levels) if she'd just ever admitted that her vendetta was wrong, and if she'd apologized.

[andromeda331]

On 6/3/2018 at 3:48 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Plus, her only experience of a mother was her own mother, so she naturally assumed that Cora was like her mother. She had no way of knowing that Cora was an evil master manipulator who would do something so crazy as murder her daughter's boyfriend. Heck, most adults wouldn't have considered that a possibility.

Yes, her only experience was her own mother who she lost. A ten year old girl who just lost the mother she loved? Cora knew what she was doing when she talked to her. The last thing Snow wanted was another girl losing her mother. She believed Cora because she was ten and had no reason not too. She didn't want anyone else going through the pain she was going through.

I really wish they had explored what Snow was thinking growing up with Regina as her stepmother. She loved her and believed Regina loved her at least up until the wedding. When did Regina change? Afterwards? Did she think Regina did all of that just to become Queen? It makes the most sense since she didn't know about Daniel and that was the real reason for Regina's hate for years. She rants to Charming about how true love doesn't exist it was all arrangements. Was that after witnessing Regina change from being nice to evil? It had to be hard how did that effect her? She really liked Regina and was so happy to have her as her new mother. When did she realize Regina was evil? She knew Regina had her father killed. When did she figure it out?  

[Rumsy4]

She probably figured it out growing up. Regina kept herself aloof from father and daughter, by her own admission, and kept sneaking off to learn magic from Rumple. That doesn’t scream of affection.

Too bad the writers decided to turn that into Leopold having neglected Regina. Why is such a whiny sociopath with a perpetual victim complex such a favorite with the writers and fans?

[andromeda331]

43 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

She probably figured it out growing up. Regina kept herself aloof from father and daughter, by her own admission, and kept sneaking off to learn magic from Rumple. That doesn’t scream of affection.

Too bad the writers decided to turn that into Leopold having neglected Regina. Why is such a whiny sociopath with a perpetual victim complex such a favorite with the writers and fans?

Your probably right. And yes poor Regina was neglected by her husband. Even though she was the one who chose not join in on anything or do anything with them. She was the one who chose to sneak off and do magic. But nope it wasn't her fault the marriage didn't work. All Regina was doing was staying away from her new family and learning magic to target her stepdaughter. Oh and planning the murder of her husband. Why indeed is she their favorite character?  

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really wish they had explored what Snow was thinking growing up with Regina as her stepmother.  How did she figure it out?  

That was a huge hole in the flashbacks.  Snow seemed to love at her father's funeral.  

[crash476]

So here's something that's been on my mind since the Season 4 finale: Rumple and Belle love the ideas of each other, not the actual person. Like that alternate world version Rumple has of Belle just made my skin crawl 'cause I'm thinking: "this is how you see Belle?" Like if Belle was allowed to be smart, adventurous, independent, like we're told she is, I doubt Belle would be too happy about that all. And then Belle's whole "there's good in you, Rumple!" schtick. Yes, the obvious statement is obvious. But do you know how interesting it would have been to examine Rumple and Belle's situation between season 2 and 5 using the "loving a shadow trope." You know, the trope where someone is more in love with the idea of a person than the actual flesh and blood person; Jay Gatsby and Daisy situation. Like, what if the their relationship had gone the route of they had that actual true love moment -- it was real, but it was brief -- they get separated by the curse (doesn't matter what they're situation is, but they're not together) but  they're holding onto this idealized version of the other as a hope line or something. Then the curse breaks, they get back together, but they eventually realize just how different they are from what they've put on a pedestal. Maybe they try to have a relationship together, but it's just not working. Neither can live up to the other's expectations. And you can have so much drama and growth right there! And it was staring the writers right in the face! God damn, do fanfic writers have to do all the work?!

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, crash476 said:

do fanfic writers have to do all the work?!

Apparently. ;-)

[tennisgurl]

I really wish that, at some point, someone had sat A&E down, and explained to them, very carefully, how fucking consent works! Or maybe, at least go at least a season or two without creepy magic rape? Or, if you need to keep writing that in, at least dedicate some actual time to deal with that, instead of using rape as a stupid way to get from one plot point to another. 

Lets not even get into the mind field of consent issues with the curse itself, and people sleeping with people they would never have slept with if they weren't cursed (like Snow and Whale) with new memories, the show had this truly bizarre and disturbing habit of characters using magic to get people to sleep with them, and while many of those people were, admittedly, villains, but they didnt take any time to really look at the ramifications of that, and how that would make someone who suffered that would feel afterwards. Its like they really truly do not get why rape is a big deal, as long as it involves magic. If there was magic, its not really a awful violation for some reason, even in a world where magic totally exists, and really, if you just take out magic and add GHB, its exactly the same freaking thing. 

The whole thing is even worse in retrospect, with our current age being made more and more aware of sexual harassment and assault in Hollywood and in general, with the #MeToo movement, and all that. And, this isnt even stuff that just happened in the early seasons, it was going on in the last season too! Yeah, its hard to talk about a guy being a victim of rape by fraud because an evil Tree Nymph wanted him to knock her up because of some magical escape clause in the context of real world social issues, but thats not the freaking point! The point is, even without the magic stuff, this kind of thing does happen, its not something to take lightly if you insistent on bringing it up, and yet they just keep doing it, because its a way to get from plot point to plot point (like King Arthur giving Queen Gwen magic roofies to hide his evil from the heroes), without every thinking about the implications of it all. 

Of course, that leads us to Regina and Graham, which is still, even after watching the whole show, the thing that leaves the worst taste in my mouth about the whole show. Yeah, the whole show. Yeah, its when Regina was still a villain, but the fact that, if I remember right, they tried to really play off what was obviously Regina raping a person she has total power over, who hated her in their real lives, as something that was just fun and normal, and not a horrific violation. And then she killed him, and...it never came up again. Its so deeply messed up, it basically killed my ability to get behind Regina. Every time she gets all sulky about people not buying her changing fast enough, I would just think "yeah, so, tell anyone about Graham?" or something. Its bad enough that Regina got totally away with her crimes, which sound like the kind of things that get you punched in the face by Detective Stabler on an episode of Law and Order SVU but on Once, its just a small plot point for the shows true hero, and that Emma and the other heroes never thought to question a healthy young man dropping dead of a heart attack as he was figuring out that a woman who would become known for crushing peoples hearts, was evil, but the show really truly, didnt seem to see what the big deal was. Its so fucked up, I just cant even. At least most of the other magic rapists were actually villains. They kept playing it off like Regina keeping a fucking sex slave was just a fun, sassy little quirk after she became the hero of the show. I just...how tone death are you?!?!

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

it basically killed my ability to get behind Regina. 

The revelation of Graham’s rape was when I felt Regina was irredeemable. And in the post-episode official podcast, A&E joked that Regina and Graham could’ve been playing chess in her bedchamber. That should’ve clued me in as to what “justice” to expect. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Rumsy4

[companionenvy]

Ok, this is a small one, but as I was rewatching Snow Falls for this weekend, one missed opportunity occurred to me: at some point, the fact that Snow had been a bandit should have been brought up in the context of Killian having been a pirate! Obviously, there's no real equivalence there; Snow confirms that she was only stealing from Regina (targeting David and Katherine was a mistake), and she's not killing people (while we don't get confirmation, I assume that even in Hook's early pirate days, before Milah's death, there were battles with casualties when the JR went after other ships). But it would still have been an interesting character beat to have acknowledged - and could have led to a really fun episode. I'm imagining the Once version of a heist episode where Killian assumes he's taking the lead, given his background, and then Snow brings up her experience, to his great shock.

Emma's past could also have come up, of course, but Snow and Killian are a little more directly parallel in that both of them were (at least initially) stealing from a corrupt ruler and both of them adopted identities that had a kind of romance to them - pirates and highwaymen are both mythologized figures, whereas common thieves are not. If he hadn't been such a dud as a character, Robin could also have joined the fun, but I think it would have been more significant from a character perspective for Hook and Snow, especially as Hook is so (justifiably) self-loathing about his past, and Snow is by the later seasons of the show the closest we come to a paragon of good. 

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

If he hadn't been such a dud as a character, Robin could also have joined the fun

Lol. I remember in earlier seasons some were speculating that Robin was the one to have taught Snow how to shoot. But it ended up being Hercules.

[andromeda331]

12 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Lol. I remember in earlier seasons some were speculating that Robin was the one to have taught Snow how to shoot. But it ended up being Hercules.

I thought that too. Should have known that would have made too much sense. 

[KingOfHearts]

I wish we could've seen a character marry into nobility or royalty for the sake of their family's survival. The writers had the opportunity to subvert the "only marry for True Love" trope that audiences eat up by the spoonful. Arranged marriages are always portrayed as a horrible thing in fairy tales, especially within the Disney canon. The Enchanted Forest is very cutthroat. It's pretty unrealistic for characters to strive for ideals and just go do whatever. It's like what @Shanna Marie mentioned in the All Seasons thread - the writers are caught between "realistic" and "Enchanted-style". The show doesn't seem to play to the rules of either. 

"Oh my kingdom/family is going to starve to death, but at least I got to marry this poor person I love!"

Edited June 5, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I wish we could've seen a character marry into nobility or royalty for the sake of their family's survival.

They sort of had Belle heading towards this path with Gaston, though that was not poverty.  Cora married not for love but to marry into nobility/royalty.  David was also initially forced into an arranged marriage.  

Overall, I would consider the Enchanted Forest more medieval than fairy tale magical.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

They sort of had Belle heading towards this path with Gaston, though that was not poverty.  Cora married not for love but to marry into nobility/royalty.  David was also initially forced into an arranged marriage.  

Overall, I would consider the Enchanted Forest more medieval than fairy tale magical.  

I should've clarified - I would've like to see it in a positive or at least neutral light. Belle sold herself to slavery, not to marriage.

Edited June 6, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

David was also initially forced into an arranged marriage.  

I wouldn't want David to not end up as Snow's Prince Charming because they were perfect together, and I liked the fact that he was a farmboy posing as a prince, but David and Abigail would have made for an interesting story if they existed in a vacuum, without the Snow White part of the story. He's a farmboy forced to pose as a prince so he can marry a wealthy princess and save his kingdom from financial ruin. Even if he were really a prince, it would have been an arranged marriage for money, but it's even more awkward when he has to pretend to be a prince without a lot of practice or training. The princess isn't at all keen at first because she met his twin brother and didn't like him, and it takes her a while to realize that he's different. She seems cold and bitchy at first but is actually pretty decent. They have to make the best of the situation they're in. Maybe there's danger and intrigue when they figure out that his father is shady, and eventually he has to confess to her who/what he really is.

18 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Ok, this is a small one, but as I was rewatching Snow Falls for this weekend, one missed opportunity occurred to me: at some point, the fact that Snow had been a bandit should have been brought up in the context of Killian having been a pirate!

They have a surprising number of parallels. I'd just noted (I think maybe in one of the other threads) that their lives track -- they seem to have been about the same age when his father abandoned him and her mother died, and they seem to have been about the same age when Liam died and he turned pirate and when her father died and she turned bandit. Unfortunately, I don't recall them having direct interaction between season two and season six. Even when they were in the same group or the same room, I don't think they spoke directly to each other.

And now, them either disagreeing or collaborating on plans for a heist (stealing something important from someone bad, of course) has to go on my list of scenes I wish we'd had. It's right there with my wish that we'd seen David and Hook either in the Enchanted Forest world or dealing with someone who just arrived, and that person reacts with hostility. Hook assumes it's because of him, since he hurt so many people, but it turns out after some contrite groveling from Hook, who's trying to pretend that he remembers this person and what he did to him, that the person thinks David is James, and it's someone James screwed over.

[Camera One]

17 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Lol. I remember in earlier seasons some were speculating that Robin was the one to have taught Snow how to shoot. But it ended up being Hercules.

I remember that too.  It would have needed to be Young Robin Hood teaching Young Snow.  Later on, they probably wanted to downplay that Robin Hood knew too much about The Evil Queen and her atrocities.  I don't remember them having Robin and Belle interact even though they knew each other before, nor did Robin show much antagonism towards Rumple.  Really, Robin seemed to have no real opinions about anything that I can remember.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And now, them either disagreeing or collaborating on plans for a heist (stealing something important from someone bad, of course) has to go on my list of scenes I wish we'd had. It's right there with my wish that we'd seen David and Hook either in the Enchanted Forest world or dealing with someone who just arrived, and that person reacts with hostility. Hook assumes it's because of him, since he hurt so many people, but it turns out after some contrite groveling from Hook, who's trying to pretend that he remembers this person and what he did to him, that the person thinks David is James, and it's someone James screwed over.

Now you have me wishing we could have seen Snow, Hook and Emma planning a heist with David slightly concerned about his wife, daughter and potential son-in-law all have been thieves. Would they fight over who should be in charge? Or just work together incorporating their different skills from bandit, pirate and our world theft. Also wishing we could have seem them drinking at a bar or at home talking about their past crimes. Snow regaling stories of robbing from the Queen with David reminding her she robbed him and hit him with a rock, Emma's stories of stealing or tracking down bail jumpers David was surprised to see her picking a lock he'd probably be surprised about thefts, and Hook with his tales. 

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Really, Robin seemed to have no real opinions about anything that I can remember

He’s pro-crypt sex. :-p

[Mitch]

The Snow/Regina thing could have worked better if they had shown them growing up together and Snow seeing Regina as a big sister and Regina seeing Snow as her little sister. They would then build in that Snow idolized Regina and Regina felt that Snow was her trusted sister and friend against Cora. In my scenario I would have had Blue or someone outlaw the use of dark magic in the the EF...like Glinda did in the later Oz books...(I never understood why and how they could let these evil maniacs with super powers run amok and do nothing about it..) and it would explain why Cora didn't just magic her way into power..another thing that never made sense..so Cora sees that magic users are burnt at the stake or something and has to be sly about things. She sets it up for Snow and Regina to meet with the horse thing and spends years insinuating herself with the royal family. She poisons Snows mom, etc.  Snow really does want Regina to be her new mom and when she finds out she is running away she doens't want her to leave..even if she marries the stable boy guy, she wants Regina to be around her..so she tells Cora to at least keep Regina around longer. So Snow is both guilty and not guilty and Regina has a right to be angry and they both have a built in thing of love and hate now which both explains Regina's anger, Snow's guilt and the reason that they can never really kill each other. It would also make their later relationship make more sense...(I still would never write it as simplistic and cartoonish as A & E but ...I would have them still hurt and sniping at each other but when push comes to shove Snow would stick up for Regina, knowing her faults, and Regina would instinctively protect Snow against another evil doer as you would a smaller sibling, even one who annoys the f*ck out of you. The relationship would both be more complex and make more sense.

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

I don't remember them having Robin and Belle interact even though they knew each other before, nor did Robin show much antagonism towards Rumple.

On the contrary, Robin said he owed Rumple "a great debt," I guess for not killing him after repeatedly flaying him alive, and then he did cave and let Robin use the wand to save Marian. Because of this "great debt," Robin let Neal use his 4-year-old son as bait for the Shadow. Maybe that's also why he risked so much to steal the potion to save Rumple's life when he was literally dying of his own evil. Because not killing someone you've tortured almost to death generates a life debt that can never be fully repaid.

Robin would probably still be alive and his son wouldn't have been orphaned if he hadn't saved Rumple in New York for no apparent reason. Then the Darkness would have died out while in the World Without Magic, so Emma wouldn't have become the Dark One, there would have been no trip to Camelot, Hook wouldn't have been mortally wounded by Excalibur and turned into a Dark One and then killed, there would have been no trip to the Underworld, and Hades wouldn't have been freed to kill Robin. Then again, if Robin's survival instincts were such that he thought he needed to take risks to save an evil enemy's life, he'd have probably been killed some other way.

[Rumsy4]

39 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Because of this "great debt," Robin let Neal use his 4-year-old son as bait for the Shadow.

This is a good reminder that Robin handing over baby Robyn to freaking Hades and Zelena, in order to stay in the Underworld with Regina, was not the first time he risked the life and safety of his child for the sake of a villain. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Mitch]

I wish they had started this season off writing to its new time slot..instead they wrote as a half baked knock off of S1 and  like it was still on Sunday. It was obvious with the "urban" setting and aging doufus  kid Henry  up to hipster doufus adult Henry that they were going for a different feel, but everything else stayed the same, down to the even more annoying know it all kid. I wish they had made use of the setting, made the show grittier and more "realistic" and yes, darker, but in good way. I would dump the kid, dump Cinderella...leave all the old gang back in SB and these versions are from the WishREalm made real by Emma's white magic.  Regina would be the older EQ , who still had the curse but never used it..Henry would be a grown up version of WishHenry, (the twist would be that Henry forced WishREgina to cast the curse, to take him to the LWOM to find his "mother" who just disappeared out of existence...Gothel  is from the real world but found herself in WishWorld as she was looking for someone who could cast the curse..and used his anger and pain to get him to cast the curse to hitch a ride to the LWOM . Cinders would be a play on the boring twu lurve...his real connection is to Drizella..no stupid annoying toothy kid..WishRump would be transported like RealRump was, etc.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Mitch

[crash476]

7 hours ago, Mitch said:

I wish they had started this season off writing to its new time slot..instead they wrote as a half baked knock off of S1 and  like it was still on Sunday.

Christ, way back at the end of like season 5 I want to say, a friend and I created a Henry spinoff. The premise was that Henry is an English student at NYU doing student stuff and studying the Author's library in New York, looking for the changes Isaac made. He's got a plan to get those stories back on track, finds some in Aladdin, and gets himself and a LWOM friend sucked into an Author's copy of 1001 Arabian Nights. Proceed a plot that would be a cross of Aladdin/Game of Thrones/Lawrence of Arabia, throw in Schaharezade, Ali Baba, Sinbad, and war with Shakespeare's Italian characters and we figured we got something good.

And I figured (taking this from my own plans), if the show had the budget for it, they could have moved locations to New York, pick a university for Henry to attend, and having studying the storybooks and realizes that *shock* his roommate looks exactly like one of the characters in one of the books! Pick an unadapted Disney property (ie The Black Cauldron) or lesser known Grimms/Perrault/Andersen fairytale, give the villain a reason to cast the Dark Curse. For some added danger, there's a character with their pre-curse memories working for the villain who's job is to make sure the cursed characters don't wake up. Henry can call the Storybrooke characters whenever he needs extra help, but otherwise they trust that he can take care of himself. Maybe Rumple's a recurring character 'cause he and Belle have decided to separate for a while; Regina and Hook are more involved 'cause Emma's busy with the baby. Give the show a gritty, police procedural or thriller feel and go from there.

And also you make sure the PR people market this as a continuation of the OUaT proper. Calling season 7 a "reboot" was rather confusing, not helped by the showrunners' vagueness. If OUaT hadn't been written season to season -- if there had been an actual plan -- they could have set up Henry over a couple season to the main protagonist once Regina Emma's story was resolved. Vikings did this really well with the (spoilers) death of Ragnar Lothbrok by setting up a number of characters (his sons, Lagertha, Floki, Rollo, Harald Fairhair, Alfred the Great) to take over the show. 

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

On the contrary, Robin said he owed Rumple "a great debt," I guess for not killing him after repeatedly flaying him alive,

It's interesting that they did that in Season 7 too.  Alice and Whook acted like they owed Rumple a great debt since Rumple decided NOT to transfer all his darkness into Alice.

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

It's interesting that they did that in Season 7 too.  Alice and Whook acted like they owed Rumple a great debt since Rumple decided NOT to transfer all his darkness into Alice.

Oh gosh. The Guardian plot was COMPLETELY pointless. Rumple had no plan. He was as in the dark as everybody else.

Edited June 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[RolloTomasi]

LOL this show was so weird. “X didn’t kill/maim/top me off with darkness when given the chance” really, really should not equate to “I owe X my life.” 

[KingOfHearts]

Thank you @Rumsy4 for not killing me today. You are a true hero and I owe you my eternal servitude.

Edited June 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

Isn't that classic Stockholm Syndrome? Your captor didnt kill you, so you feel the debt to them? Honestly, if we realized in the final season that everyone had just fallen in love with their captors, Regina and Rumple, and this was all a horrible psychological tragedy, it would make WAY more sense than Regina randomly becoming Queen of Everything to thunderous applause. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Thanks you @Rumsy4 for not killing me today. You are a true hero and I owe you my eternal servitude.

And now my heart is spotless because of my amazing act of restraint. 

Wouldn't it be cool if we combined all the threads in all the forums on this site? Then, we can discuss all TV shows, movies, and real world events in a single thread. To make this Great Forum Merge possible, I will need a piece of all of your hearts. I will be gracious and not insist that you crown me Queen of all the PTV boards for having this genius idea. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Wouldn't it be cool if we combined all the threads in all the forums on this site? Then, we can discuss all TV shows, movies, and real world events in a single thread. To make this Great Forum Merge possible, I will need a piece of all of your hearts. I will be gracious and not insist that you crown me Queen of all the PTV boards for having this genius idea. 

Better yet - let's merge all countries into a single continent and one sovereign government. I'm sure everyone will get along and that Marie Antoinette will be a wonderful queen. Thank you, A&E, for ushering in the new world order.

Edited June 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

So, I've gone on at length about the larger issues of this show, everything from its plot holes, to lack of world building, to its disturbing consent issues, to its obsession with its pet characters (all hail Regina!) and all kinda of larger plot and characterization issues, I have thought of a few, smaller things that I would change, that might not make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, but it would have made this a better show, in my opinion. 

I would have made the musical episode take place in a realm where its a musical world, instead of it being a spell. I would make it so the gang gets accidentally sent to a world where people singing their feelings is just normal, and they actually have to sing about their current issues, instead of it all being a weird flashback thing, even sucking in Zelena, who has nothing to do with anything at that point. 

I would have done a Whale/Ruby romance, instead of ignoring both of them until they brought Ruby back for her half assed two episode romance with Dorothy. It seemed to be set up, and their connection as famous monsters could have been a fun parallel to Snow/Charming, as famous fairy tale characters. Plus, it would give them both something to actually do, and maybe let us explore Whales black and white movie homeland, which I thought looked like a cool, unique place to see more of. 

I would have done away with Marion coming back at all. The whole story was a total mess that basically ruined Robin as a character, badly hurt Regina and everyone else, and was in general a gross, disturbing, and pointless story where a woman got to see a woman who almost murdered her (and did in the main timeline) had taken her spot in her family, and was treated like a bad guy for daring to inconvenience everyone by not dying, had her husband cheat on her with said woman, and was murdered and replaced by said woman's sister who raped her husband. And no one ever cared about her. I would even have not had her brought back at all, and instead have Regina have to deal with what she did when Emma tells everyone. Or bring her back, and have her see that Robin has moved on, and have her part ways with him on good terms. 

No Lily. No eggnapping. Just cut the whole story. Gone, goodbye.

Edited June 14, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Mitch]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So, I've gone on at length about the larger issues of this show, everything from its plot holes, to lack of world building, to its disturbing consent issues, to its obsession with its pet characters (all hail Regina!) and all kinda of larger plot and characterization issues, I have thought of a few, smaller things that I would change, that might not make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, but it would have made this a better show, in my opinion. 

I would have made the musical episode take place in a realm where its a musical world, instead of it being a spell. I would make it so the gang gets accidentally sent to a world where people singing their feelings is just normal, and they actually have to sing about their current issues, instead of it all being a weird flashback thing, even sucking in Zelena, who has nothing to do with anything at that point. 

I would have done a Whale/Ruby romance, instead of ignoring both of them until they brought Ruby back for her half assed two episode romance with Dorothy. It seemed to be set up, and their connection as famous monsters could have been a fun parallel to Snow/Charming, as famous fairy tale characters. Plus, it would give them both something to actually do, and maybe let us explore Whales black and white movie homeland, which I thought looked like a cool, unique place to see more of. 

I would have done away with Marion coming back at all. The whole story was a total mess that basically ruined Robin as a character, badly hurt Regina and everyone else, and was in general a gross, disturbing, and pointless story where a woman got to see a woman who almost murdered her (and did in the main timeline) had taken her spot in her family, and was treated like a bad guy for daring to inconvenience everyone by not dying, had her husband cheat on her with said woman, and was murdered and replaced by said woman's sister who raped her husband. And no one ever cared about her. I would even have not had her brought back at all, and instead have Regina have to deal with what she did when Emma tells everyone. Or bring her back, and have her see that Robin has moved on, and have her part ways with him on good terms. 

No Lily. No eggnapping. Just cut the whole story. Gone, goodbye.

I agree..bringing "Universal Monster World" would have been cool and a nice change of pace for airy fairy lets market another Disney product world. It would have been cool to have the gang sucked into worlds other then fairy tale worlds and they would have no clue how to deal as the worlds they visit would be different then what they watched on the "Early Movie" It would be break from the increasingly generic and boring..."Another medieval village that somehow takes place in Storybrooke's woods.   Seeing the cast dressed up differently would be cool and I would love to see a magic less Regina being chased through a fog covered cobblestone street by Dracula. It wouldnt have to be a "arc" but a few episode side adventure.  Hell, they could have gone to Shakespeare world as we saw on the bullentin board that characters were sucking into Storybrooke.. A Dickensonian world.. AH, it kind of sucks that they opened the idea of infinite worlds based on "stories" and the world they presented was so damn small.

Agree, no eggnapping..no Dragons screwing and having eggs..Malificent was NOT a dragon, she could just turn into one..dumb a**es.

[tennisgurl]

5 minutes ago, Mitch said:

"Another medieval village that somehow takes place in Storybrooke's woods.   Seeing the cast dressed up differently would be cool and I would love to see a magic less Regina being chased through a fog covered cobblestone street by Dracula. It wouldnt have to be a "arc" but a few episode side adventure. 

One of my biggest complaints about the show, and one of the biggest missed opportunities, is that we always seemed to end up in yet another medieval forest village, over and over again, or something very close to it, when this is supposedly a universe filled with every story in existence. Thats a lot more than just traditional western based fairy tales. A Dickensian or Shakespearean world would be a ton of fun, or some other world where magic doesn't work, or works differently, and the fairy tale characters are trying to survive in a place that they dont understand, and the rules arent the same as it is at home. 

I also would have changed a lot about Emma and her Savior freak out during season six, but I would have specifically changed the nature of the freak outs. They kept saying that the Saviors will "always die" over and over, and its like, "well...yeah. Everybody does". Its just the phrasing is so dramatic and silly, because unless humans in this world are actually immortal, Saviors dying isnt that shocking or horrifying. Since the only Saviors we see are humans, and not immortal, its like a family patriarch getting the whole clan together, and dramatically announcing he will die...eventually at some point. It would have worked a lot better if they had said that Saviors always die young, or die violently, or the people they love die because of them, or something like that. It would make the drama seem a bit more worthwhile, and Emma practically shutting down all season more understandable. Granted, I thought Emma becoming a twitchy, shaky, hallow shell of her former self, who seems more a passive victim than a hero most of the time, was a horrible way to end her character, and I thought the whole Savior thing was a total mess, but that could at least have given us a little something more logical.

[scarynikki12]

Frankenstein and a werewolf sounds like a super cool pairing(platonic and romantic) so they ignored that potential in favor of half-assing 2B. 

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Since the only Saviors we see are humans, and not immortal, its like a family patriarch getting the whole clan together, and dramatically announcing he will die...eventually at some point. It would have worked a lot better if they had said that Saviors always die young, or die violently, or the people they love die because of them, or something like that. It would make the drama seem a bit more worthwhile, and Emma practically shutting down all season more understandable. Granted, I thought Emma becoming a twitchy, shaky, hallow shell of her former self, who seems more a passive victim than a hero most of the time, was a horrible way to end her character, and I thought the whole Savior thing was a total mess, but that could at least have given us a little something more logical.

I just kind of assumed that what they meant was that the savior was doomed to die young, not simply that she was doomed to die at some unspecified point, but yeah, as written, it was a little bit like the whole "Your child could wind up being a really good person, or totally evil" thing. Like...yes? Isn't that kind of how the combination of nature and nurture usually works, in one way or another? 

The savior mythology wound up not making much sense anyway, as originally, Emma being the savior was highly specific to Regina's curse. It wasn't supposed to be a job title; she was fulfilling a specific prophecy. 

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, companionenvy said:

The savior mythology wound up not making much sense anyway, as originally, Emma being the savior was highly specific to Regina's curse. It wasn't supposed to be a job title; she was fulfilling a specific prophecy. 

That's what the show was saying in Season 1, but somehow, that morphed by Season 3 or so.  Still, it was possible to keep believing that, but it was all blown to hell in Season 6 when they made things a hundred times worse by "expanding" on the mythology and introducing Aladdin as a Savior and later revealing that Rumple was born a Savior too.  

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Frankenstein and a werewolf sounds like a super cool pairing(platonic and romantic) so they ignored that potential in favor of half-assing 2B. 

Literally any potential pairing would've been better than Dorothy.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Still, it was possible to keep believing that, but it was all blown to hell in Season 6 when they made things a hundred times worse by "expanding" on the mythology and introducing Aladdin as a Savior and later revealing that Rumple was born a Savior too.  

Thats the catch 22 of Once. I complain about its crappy world building and its shaky and ill defined mythology, and yet when they actually try to expand on anything, it quickly turns to crap, and just ends in ret cons and eye rolling.