Once Upon A...SHOULDA HAPPENED THIS WAY!

Camera One · May 24, 2018

14 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

As for Neverland, yeah, there was so much wasted potential. Book Neverland was basically written to be the ultimate place to go to have adventures. This Neverland was pretty dull. It was just a jungle. The mermaids only showed up in the premiere. I can see how the "Indians" might be problematic, but surely they could have come up with some kind of substitute that was more respectful, so the Lost Boys would have someone to fight (and to make the island more dynamic). The only fairy was Tinkerbell, who just moped around in her treehouse. Meanwhile, there was so much related to that story that they could have explored in flashbacks. Thematically, they should have delved into the fact that so many of them were basically Lost Boys/Girls -- Henry was given up for adoption, Emma was seemingly abandoned as an infant, Hook was abandoned as a small boy, Neal's father let him go alone to another world, David lost his father very young, Snow lost her mother very young and lost her home and her father when she was a young adult. Even Regina felt "lost" because her mother disregarded what she wanted. From a story/character angle, Hook and Neal had a past in Neverland. They both had a history with Pan and with each other. We should have seen flashbacks of the pirates in Neverland, having to deal with the evil mermaids, fighting the Lost Boys, having to try to rescue members of their crew from the Echo Caves. We should have seen Bae trying to survive and Hook looking after him, then Bae escaping and maybe the beginning of his transition to being Neal. Instead, we got entirely unrelated flashbacks of Snow learning to believe in herself, Snow vs. Regina, Regina being unhappy with her own curse, Regina finding her soulmate. I once counted, and Regina, the character who has nothing to do with Neverland, got more flashbacks in that arc than the characters who actually had a relevant history.

Time was wasted teasing out clues. On second viewing (I've only watched the show twice), watching Rumple follow that doll thing around was beyond boring. I would have made the heroes a little more competent. Henry should have pretended to fall under Pan's spell. They needed to actually explain/show the bond between Tinkerbelle and Pan. I don't remember them even having a scene, and yet we're supposed to believe she can get them into Pan's camp? They knew this was MJR's last half-season, yet they hardly used him, and they didn't take the opportunity to do the rest of Baelfire's backstory. David's illness only served the purpose of helping to redeem Hook. David himself did not develop as a character from the experience, he didn't even have a centric, and all the potential drama from his fate of staying on Neverland forever was underplayed with Emma segregated, off in her love triangle subplot.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Camera One

profdanglais · May 24, 2018

9 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess Hook got his "Captain Hook" reputation on the cake runs, and I can imagine how that might have worked -- he shows up every decade or so, always looking about the same age, does something really dastardly, then vanishes again for a decade or so. That's the stuff of legends and tall tales -- "My grandad told me of a vile pirate who appeared from nowhere and attacked their ship. He fought like a demon and had a hook for a hand. As soon as he took their cargo and my grandad's ring, his ship was gone. No one saw him again for years, until the day a pirate with a hook for a hand attacked my ship -- and he was younger than me, but he was the same pirate. He wore my granddad's ring."

Love it. In my head canon, one of the JR's powers is that she can move easily between realms, but not at will. She needs to store up enough magic first. So Hook does his cake runs, but then also every few years he can go off somewhere else without Pan's help, to pirate around and research Dreamshade and keep his crew happy so they don't mutiny. Also, in my head there's more to the Neverland realm than just that one island, so they can keep themselves occupied in between bouts with Lost Boys.

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I mentioned this in the Other Fairy Tales thread, but I recently started reading the Liveships trilogy by Robin Hobb, in which the ships are built of enchanted wood, and they're sentient. The figureheads talk, use their hands and arms, etc., and interact with the crew. Or there's the living ship on The Magicians. The Jolly Roger would have to be able to more or less sail itself, since it would be impossible for Hook to sail her singlehandedly (literally, in his case). It would have been nice to see how that worked, with him giving orders and the ship just doing it, the sails adjusting, and all that. It could have been fun if the ship were sentient and in love with Hook. Through most of 3B, I was convinced that the way he got to Emma was by riding the curse out inside the ship, with the enchanted wood ship working like the wardrobe. Instead, all they did was talk about the Jolly Roger being made of enchanted wood.

Also in my head, the JR is a bit like the TARDIS -- an entity in herself, with emotions, likes and dislikes. She loves Hook, is fond of Bae/Neal and Henry, hates Regina and Cora, and tolerates Emma once she starts making Hook happy. Hook so rarely had anyone 100% on his side, it would have been a lovely relationship to explore, and I'd have loved to see Emma work to win the loyalty of his ship.

Mitch · May 24, 2018

I was SO ready for EVIL mermaids...then...nothing!

Neverland showed the problem with making their magical villains so powerful...Regina says she has enough magic to fix the ship but they turn her down for..why? They spend time walking around potted plants when Regina and Gold can sometimes poof their way there...why not just poof their way to Pan to have a showdown? They are sleeping in the jungle...wearing the same clothes, why not just poof a house up and some new hiking clothes? I know the general audience must not ever notice those things, based on their gushing on FB..but they are just so stupid it brings the whole story down.

Neverland's magic, as a matter of fact any realms magic should have been wonky for any EFer..its different it works different and you can screw things up using it. One of my fave book as a kid was "Half Magic," and the half coin when used, could and did screw things up for the kids, who had to come up with a work around using their brains. This show needed the Half Magic gang.

But damn..you introduce Evil Mermaids and you don't use them???

Edited May 24, 2018 by Mitch

KingOfHearts · May 24, 2018

We really missed out on this scene with Rumple and the Olympian Crystal (my OTP) in New York.

RUMPLE conjures some CASH to pay for a hotel.

CLERK: "Okay, sir. Your total is $165.44. Will you be paying with cash or card?"
RUMPLE: "Cash."
RUMPLE hands the CLERK the magically conjured CASH.
CLERK: "I'm sorry sir, this looks to be counterfeit."

andromeda331 · May 24, 2018

I really wish they had done more fish out of water with fairytale characters in our world. While their helping Emma navigated their worlds of fairytale and lands Emma helping with them understand the world she grew up in. Rumple's confusion at taking off shoes and stuff at the airport. We should have seen more of that. Emma showing them movies their characters were based on. We should have seen Hook's reaction to Hook in the movies. Use security cameras to catch the villains coming to town since there's no way they would know about those. Using GPS.

tennisgurl · May 24, 2018

10 hours ago, Mitch said:

But damn..you introduce Evil Mermaids and you don't use them???

Hey, check out Sirens over on Freeform! They have all kinds of mermaids/mermen over there!

The great tragedy of Once was (ironically for a show about fairy tale books) a lack of imagination. They had so many things they could have done that would have made for better stories and solved a lot of their problems in plotting and characterization, and it was all set up, it was all right there, and...they did nothing. So much was set up so well. The fish out of water antics of fairy tale characters in the modern world. Characters from different genres teaming up and trying to navigate each others worlds. So many different magical creatures and powers and cool stuff. And they just never followed through, out of laziness, obsession with their pet characters, or just pure of lack of creativity. It was all RIGHT THERE! Its like you getting The Beatles back together, and instead of having them play music, you have them discuss income tax.

Their world was never really explored, nor was it very well set up. I mean, The Smurfs had a more well explored and established magical world. Twilight had a more well explored and set up magical world. Sabrina the freaking Teenage Witch had a better established and explored magical world! Yeah they made shit up for jokes and plot contrivances, but at least they had rules to break in the first place, and seemed actually interested in exploring their world.

Edited May 25, 2018 by tennisgurl

Inquirer · May 24, 2018

20 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

As for Neverland, yeah, there was so much wasted potential. Book Neverland was basically written to be the ultimate place to go to have adventures. This Neverland was pretty dull. It was just a jungle. The mermaids only showed up in the premiere. I can see how the "Indians" might be problematic, but surely they could have come up with some kind of substitute that was more respectful, so the Lost Boys would have someone to fight (and to make the island more dynamic). The only fairy was Tinkerbell, who just moped around in her treehouse. Meanwhile, there was so much related to that story that they could have explored in flashbacks. Thematically, they should have delved into the fact that so many of them were basically Lost Boys/Girls -- Henry was given up for adoption, Emma was seemingly abandoned as an infant, Hook was abandoned as a small boy, Neal's father let him go alone to another world, David lost his father very young, Snow lost her mother very young and lost her home and her father when she was a young adult. Even Regina felt "lost" because her mother disregarded what she wanted. From a story/character angle, Hook and Neal had a past in Neverland. They both had a history with Pan and with each other. We should have seen flashbacks of the pirates in Neverland, having to deal with the evil mermaids, fighting the Lost Boys, having to try to rescue members of their crew from the Echo Caves. We should have seen Bae trying to survive and Hook looking after him, then Bae escaping and maybe the beginning of his transition to being Neal. Instead, we got entirely unrelated flashbacks of Snow learning to believe in herself, Snow vs. Regina, Regina being unhappy with her own curse, Regina finding her soulmate. I once counted, and Regina, the character who has nothing to do with Neverland, got more flashbacks in that arc than the characters who actually had a relevant history.

This definitely shows that the bigger problem was with the flashbacks than the present. Neverland being a dull, dark jungle in the present made perfect sense given that the story was that its magic was dying out, so I don't think that should've been change. But it should have been counter-balanced by lots of flashbacks to Neverland in its prime, where we get to really see what it was like before its current state. Instead, we got more Enchanted Forest flashbacks, and even a freaking Storybrooke flashback. The only two flashbacks to feature Neverland in its pre-decayed state - 3x05 and 3x08 - barely explored it at all and didn't feature the stuff we really wanted to see (Baelfire as a Lost Boy, Hook working for Pan, Tink working for Pan and her dynamic with Hook and Baelfire, etc). It was a huge missed opportunity, but what else is new with this show?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Inquirer

Shanna Marie · May 25, 2018

Thinking more about Neverland, I wish they hadn't made Pan Rumple's father. I guess on one level, it makes literal the psychological use of "Peter Pan" for a manchild boy who never grew up, but they didn't really play with that. It was mostly used to give Rumple woobie points, and Rumple has way too many woobie points. There's "oh, poor Rumple, forced to go fight in a war." There's "oh, poor Rumple, he's crippled and his wife is so mean to him." Then "oh, poor Rumple, he made a bad choice and let his son go, and now he's suffering." Then "oh, poor Rumple, the mean pirate bullied him and his wife ditched him." Then we get to "Oh, poor Rumple, his father turned into Peter Pan and ditched him because he couldn't be reminded that he's a father." And still later, we get "Oh, poor Rumple, he was supposed to be a Savior, but his mother clipped his destiny, turned herself into the Black Fairy, and abandoned him." I think there needs to be a limit on plot-relevant woobie points per character, especially for villains. With Rumple, it's overkill bordering on farce. His backstory sounds like something you'd hear in a Mel Brooks movie, or one of those Airplane-like parodies, the character who has a sad backstory relevant to every occasion.

The transition from Malcolm to Pan doesn't really track. For one thing, why does his accent change when he gets younger? Then there's the fact that Malcolm was mostly a lazy bum who wasn't even a successful gambler. He wanted to run away to Neverland to escape all his adult responsibilities. Is this the kind of guy who would then create an elaborate organization disguised as "the home office"? I also never bought his sheer viciousness toward his son, and if he couldn't have his son in Neverland without messing up his illusion of youth, why did he keep his grandson around instead of sending him back to London? I never got any sense of emotion or bond between Rumple and Pan, so it's not like their family connection really raised the stakes. It just came across as contrived.

The story would have worked better if Pan had just been Pan, maybe the first Lost Boy who then recruited others, and if he wanted Henry as Truest Believer without there being any family connection. That would have cut out all the Rumple crying over his doll nonsense. There was still some potential to compare and contrast Rumple and Pan, with them both being mostly evil immortal entities, one being an older father and grandfather who's fully adult and the other being an eternal child.

Rumsy4 · May 25, 2018

I wanted Pan to be Rumple's brother. It would've made a nice anti-parallel to Liam.

Inquirer · May 25, 2018

Yeah, I think he needed to have SOME deeper connection to Rumple or it wouldn't be as interesting. Brother probably would've worked better than father.

Although Pan as Rumple's father still worked better than the Black Fairy as his mother did - that was a push way too far for me. Having BOTH parents of the immortal, crazy, child-snatching mega-villain ALSO being immortal, crazy, child-snatching mega-villains was improbable to a laughable degree and really cheapened Rumple's character.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Inquirer

andromeda331 · May 25, 2018

A brother would have worked or even just a rival for Rumple. Both lived for several centuries and were evil. Rumple made deals for people's children and Pan lured children to Neverland. Both want to be the baddest bad but for different reasons. Rumple for the curse. Pan should have a different reason. Maybe they both kept snatching children and magical items from each other that fed the rivalry. I really doubt either would have been happy to have someone else just as much power as them. Pan ending up with Bae should have been some sort of revenge against Rumple or Pan's way to lure him to Neverland where he was more powerful. Henry easily could have been for the same reason.

Camera One · May 25, 2018

Aside from the shocking twist, I agree that Peter Pan as Rumple's dad didn't work. I could never buy his motivation. I remember thinking what Shanna Marie did... Malcolm was such a loser. No way he would have become a crafty manipulative supervillain. This arc did have similar problems as later arcs in terms of villains, on a smaller scale. Peter Pan was often MIA. In some ways, that was good, since he wasn't over-exposed like Zelena. In other ways, it became unclear how sometimes he knew stuff and sometimes he didn't. The whole "the boy will be your undoing" and Peter Pan having a photo of Henry before he was born was very unnecessary and reminded me of bad subplots from "Alias".

I always expected an adult Wendy to be in Neverland. Having the same-age Wendy was just weird and prevented interesting interaction she could have had with Neal. I hated how they had Wendy betray them. A&E always loved doing that... having good guys betray their friends with zero follow-up. Like Aurora and Philip in 3B. What's the point of throwing their characters under a bus if there was no intention to explore it?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Camera One

companionenvy · May 25, 2018

I agree that Pan didn't really make sense as an evolution of Malcolm - in fact, probably even less than Neal as an extension of Baelfire -- but think that it was necessary for him to be Rumple's father, for several reasons. It worked for Pan's character because it really drove home precisely how sinister Pan's desire for youth was; obviously we already knew he was a really bad guy based on his present-day actions, but showing him as someone who wasn't just a child who refused to grow up, but a former adult who had shirked his responsibilities in the cruelest way possible added significantly to the dynamic. For Rumple, it worked even better, IMO. It gave further texture to many of his key moments - deserting in part because he didn't want to leave a fatherless son, his centuries-long attempt to make up for later abandoning that son, the horror of winding up a disgrace after growing up in the shadow of his own disgraceful father. In the present, the show took even greater advantage of the ability to parallel Pan's relationship with Rumple with Rumple's to Neal - the scene where Rumple confesses to being as bad as his own father, and Neal, without excusing anything he's done, firmly says that no, he wasn't was one of the most powerful ones. And then Rumple finally sacrifices his own immortal life to take down the eternal child Pan.

As you can tell, I loved the Neverland arc :)

My Rumple related regret is what they did to him after that point. Unlike Shanna, I don't think the flashbacks were guilty of too much woobifying. First of all, Rumple was guilty of such terrible things that if you wanted him to have any depth, he had to have some kind of sympathetic past; the show giving him that was avoiding the mistake they made with Regina, where they thought they were giving her a sympathetic past, but it was so inadequate as to make her not credibly redeemable. Second, even pre-Dark One Rumple was responsible for many of his own problems; yes, he wound up in some situations where the deck was stacked against him, but except in his desertion by Malcolm, he wasn't just a passive victim. He deserted; he refused to move and start over elsewhere; he made the choice to kill Zoso. Inevitably, some viewers jumped at the chance to woobify him, but I don't think the show did.

The problem for me is that if you're going to go through all that trouble to make this character so compelling and present him a textured being for whom we can feel some compassion, don't then have him descend to such cartoonish levels of evil, which negates so much of that backstory you've carefully built up. S1-3A Rumple had a fantastic arc. Even in 3B, based on what happened to him post-resurrection, I killing Zelena and even lying to Belle about the dagger were so consistent with his character that, while they represented a step backwards, didn't jeopardize my investment in him; just because someone is capable of dying a hero in a single noble moment doesn't mean that he's going to be capable of making the choice day after day to live a different kind of life, especially after undergoing another experience in which he was rendered powerless and humiliated.

But then we get S4, in which Rumple devolves into pure megalomaniac territory, actions that go well beyond the desperate need to hold onto existing power. And it comes after the most sympathetic part of his motivation, reuniting with Bae, has been removed, and totally destroys his seemingly sincere vow to honor Bae's memory. What is the point of spending all that time building up a complex villain if he's then going to essentially turn into Snidely Whiplash?

To me, Rumple needed to stay a lot grayer in S4. I think he still could have have pulled some heinous things in 4A while lying to Belle, but not going to the lengths of trying to destroy Emma and all of Storybrooke, and not just to increase his power (trying to bring Neal back would have been one obvious motivation). The real missed opportunity, though, is 4B, where I would have loved an arc in which powerless Gold has to actually cope for more than five minutes with living as a penniless, disabled Muggle, interacts with non-fairytale people, and maybe develops some actual empathy for other human beings- then leading him to re-enter the SB plot as someone who is opposing the ridiculous "Give the villains their happy ending" plan. He could have remained someone who was willing to do terrible things in the service of his goals, but the goals themselves shouldn't have been so fundamentally awful if you wanted to keep him as an interesting character.

Edited May 25, 2018 by companionenvy

companionenvy · May 25, 2018

Okay, back because I thought more about how to fix Rumple's arc:.

So, to recap: In my rewrite, Rumple's story is essentially unchanged through the end of S3. In 4A, he racks up many of the crimes he did in canon - lying to Belle about the dagger (and to everyone about his role in the Frozen story), stealing Hook's heart, hatting the fairies, trying to steal Emma's power -- but would stop short of trying to permanently imprison/kill Emma or destroying the town, and would do it in the service of a plan to resurrect Neal. Ends with Belle banishing him.

In 4B, Rumple would spend at least several episodes having to make it in the real world without interacting with any EF/FT characters. This would lead to a mini-arc where he actually does make some legitimate connections with people he doesn't exert power over and isn't related to. He would eventually plot his way back into SB because he meets the QoD and realizes that they have already joined forces, caught wind of the Author/Book, and plan on changing everyone's stories, and Rumple has just started learning to respect that other people's narratives matter: even Neal's death was his choice, and that needs to be respected, not rewritten. He (not Regina) pretends to go along with the QoD plot in order to get back into SB, and ultimately works against Isaac, probably in typically sketchy and morally gray ways, but on the side of the angels; he may even be instrumental in making Regina realize what a terrible idea Operation Mongoose is. Still ends with the transfer of darkness to Emma.

Now, here's the new part. In 5A, instead of having Dark Emma seeing visions of Dark One Rumple - which I always thought was kind of dumb -- actual, no longer DO Rumple becomes a kind of mentor figure for her, operating in a version of the role he once played for Regina and Zelena. Again, Rumple is reformed enough that his motivations are not evil, but he does play the role of the devil on her shoulder to her family and Hook's angel - the twist being that it isn't necessarily clear that he's wrong. While everyone else is impressing upon Emma the importance of not using her powers and running away from the Darkness, Rumple's whole belief (consistent with the accepting your own narrative kick he went on in my 4B) is that the only way you avoid being totally corrupted by the darkness is accepting and channeling it - and, above all, through being as self-aware as possible about your own most selfish motives and darkest desires (part of Rumple's problem, he now realizes, having been that he justified everything by the pretext that he was doing it for Bae, when on some deep level, he had always been doing it for himself). This could have led to some character development for Emma where she's allowed to acknowledge that she's still angry at her parents for trying to rob her of her powers, frustrated at having to bury her lingering, righteous anger at Regina because she's now a fellow hero and Henry's other mom, and tired of pretending to buy into the concept that being good means accepting a fully black and white morality in which forgiveness and mercy always rules the day - Emma isn't guilty about killing Cruella, and she doesn't appreciate everyone (except for Hook, really) acting - pre and post her becoming the DO -- as if any moment of anger on her part is a sign of incipient darkness. This honesty lets her develop her DO powers, which she does use in a variety of productive ways, mostly behind the backs of her loved ones. More problematically, Rumple encourages her to take back the dagger, on the logic that she's the only one with the right to it - instead, she gives it to Hook, and only takes it back once he dies/is resurrected as a DO.

Throughout their time in Camelot, Rumple actually does agree with Emma's end goal of destroying the darkness. He thinks this radical acceptance thing is, ironically, the only thing that will finally let her do it. The problem is that the desires he's been teaching her to acknowledge are the dark ones, whereas ironically, what ultimately brings the plan crashing down is her best and most loving desire to save Hook - Emma is totally self-aware about what that means, but does it anyway. Back in Storybrooke, Rumple is no longer tied to the silly pure of heart/Brave/Excalibur plan. He'll have kept his memories, unlike everyone else, but will have, in disgust, decided to mostly stay out of things and retreat to building a life with Belle - although he still tries to act as a (now increasingly cynical) mentor and conscience to Emma, as he's the only one who understands what she's done (obviously, most of these conversations would have to be heavily veiled since the audience can't know that Hook is a DO yet). In another crucial twist, instead of Emma planning to transfer the darkness to and kill Zelena, she's planning to do this to Rumple; by now, their relationship, however screwed up, is close enough that this is a real betrayal. This then leads into Rumple's final, bitter decision to negate Killian's sacrifice by taking the Darkness back into himself - he's been preaching self awareness, after all, and what he is, after all these years, is the DO. Belle leaves him when she finds out he's the DO again, and Emma drags him into the Underworld trip.

After that, I think Rumple's arc actually could have resumed in a manner fairly similar to canon. Rumple has become the DO again in a fit of righteous anger, but without totally erasing all his previous growth. He'll then wind up back in villain mode out of desperation when he finds out Belle is pregnant. And...the rest, more or less, is OuAT season 6, with necessary modifications made for the change in dynamic between him and Emma.

Shanna Marie · May 25, 2018

I think a lot of my problem with Rumple, aside from all the "good heart" stuff while he was actively being evil, is that he's kind of another form of Mary Sue. There's the Regina kind, where she gets all the things and everyone caters to her every whim as the rules of the universe bend themselves around her, and then there's the kind who's related to everyone important and playing all the roles in the story. In the old fanfic days, it was the new crew member who was Scotty's niece, Chekov's cousin, Sulu's childhood best friend, etc. With Rumple, he's Rumpelstiltskin from the fairy tale, the Dark One (a new role invented by this show), Hook's Crocodile, the Beast from Beauty and the Beast, the son of Peter Pan, a would-be Savior, and the son of the Black Fairy. Oh, and he replaced Cinderella's fairy godmother and was part of the Up couple. Regina got All the Things. Rumple was All the Things. That had a lot to do with the mess around his character because some of these roles are incompatible. It really doesn't work for him to be the Beast, who was fearsome outside but capable of goodness inside, while he was the Dark One, who was filled with Darkness and who'd sell out just about everyone in order to hold onto that Darkness.

14 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I wanted Pan to be Rumple's brother. It would've made a nice anti-parallel to Liam.

Though the Liam we saw in season 3 wasn't entirely a prize, given that he died because he refused to listen to his little brother or consider that his brother might be right. He was so convinced of his own superiority that he died. So, not quite an anti-parallel to whatever relationship Rumple might have had with his brother, Pan. There's potential for anti-parallel if they'd shown the aftermath of the Jones brothers' abandonment, since it sounds like Liam took on the adult role in raising his brother, being both father and brother to him in a very difficult situation, which would contrast to the brother who refused to grow up.

But I don't think Rumple needed a familial connection to Pan for the story to be interesting. They used that surprise relation thing way too many times, and it boiled down to lazy writing, like they didn't know any other way to give the story emotional stakes, so just make the villain someone's relative. It's similar to their romance shortcuts -- if pixie dust or the magic necklace tell you that the couple are true love, then there's no need to actually write the relationship. Even without the family ties, there was a connection between Pan and Rumple because Bae had spent so much time in Neverland. Bae might have said something that clued Pan in on the power Rumple had, which Pan might have wanted to try to get and use, and meanwhile there's another powerful immortal whose power Rumple might have been tempted to steal. Pan was trying to win over Rumple's grandson. But, really, I'd have been fine with not making this arc about Rumple other than through his son and grandson, since there were so many other characters who seemed like a better fit.

profdanglais · May 25, 2018

@Shanna Marie I completely agree, both about Rumple and Pan not needing to be related, and about Liam not being a prize. One of the things I would have liked in Hook's backstory would have been either a flashback that showed why Hook's hero worship of his brother was justified, or something in the Underworld allowing Hook to come to terms with Liam not being able to live up to his idealised image of him.

As for Rumple and Pan, there were many more interesting ways to draw them into conflict, vying for power, for control of magic, for Baelfire's loyalty, any of those would have been better than the tired father/son thing.

KingOfHearts · May 25, 2018

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

But I don't think Rumple needed a familial connection to Pan for the story to be interesting.

Pan and Rumple being childhood friends would've been more interesting, imo. Maybe Rumple wanted to grow up after he met Milah as a teenager, but Pan got jealous and wanted to stay young forever.

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

There's the Regina kind, where she gets all the things and everyone caters to her every whim as the rules of the universe bend themselves around her, and then there's the kind who's related to everyone important and playing all the roles in the story. In the old fanfic days, it was the new crew member who was Scotty's niece, Chekov's cousin, Sulu's childhood best friend, etc. With Rumple, he's Rumpelstiltskin from the fairy tale, the Dark One (a new role invented by this show), Hook's Crocodile, the Beast from Beauty and the Beast, the son of Peter Pan, a would-be Savior, and the son of the Black Fairy. Oh, and he replaced Cinderella's fairy godmother and was part of the Up couple

I like the idea of Rumple orchestrating most of the fairy tales we know and love just for his own gain. Shrek 2 did this with the Fairy Godmother, and she was pretty sinister. She would curse people then provide a solution to break the curse at a price, usually to manipulate events for her own ends. More than likely, she cursed Fiona to be an ogre so she could send her son Prince Charming to save her later and become an heir to the throne. Rumple's meddling worked well throughout S1, but there are a few instances, like you said, it makes no sense for him to be there. Rumple being the Beast is completely incompatible with his character in the grand scheme of things. It's pretty crazy that he gave Elsa's parents the anti-magic gloves and the urn, since they're not even from the same continent. At some point the writers tried shoehorning him into random flashbacks just to give Robert Carlyle something to do in imp makeup.

Shanna Marie · May 25, 2018

3 hours ago, profdanglais said:

One of the things I would have liked in Hook's backstory would have been either a flashback that showed why Hook's hero worship of his brother was justified, or something in the Underworld allowing Hook to come to terms with Liam not being able to live up to his idealised image of him.

About the only thing we saw on screen that explained Killian's hero worship of his brother was when Liam seemingly saved him from the shipwreck. Otherwise, all we've got is the fact that Killian's self-loathing was so strong that he'd consider anyone a hero in comparison to himself. There's a big gap between the abandonment and "The Brothers Jones" that never got explored, and "The Brothers Jones" kind of made a mess of things. I outlined an alternative plot for "The Brothers Jones" in the episode thread (that maybe someday I'll write out as a fic, if I ever have time) that I thought fit better into the plot, character development, and theme than the actual episode. Part of it was that Killian's hot temper kept getting him in trouble with the captain, and Liam kept intervening on his behalf. That's the kind of thing that might have built up some hero worship, if Liam saved him from a few beatings or lashings. I think the extreme "best man who ever lived" stuff was a retcon, given that he compared David to his brother in "Good Form" and didn't mean it as a compliment. I believe the words "stubborn ass" were involved.

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I like the idea of Rumple orchestrating most of the fairy tales we know and love just for his own gain.

It works for me when Rumple involved himself in those stories to manipulate it. It works less when he just inherently happens to be all these fairytale characters or related to everyone.

Likewise with Regina being both the daughter of the Queen of Hearts and the sister of the Wicked Witch of the West. Zelena being related to Regina actually weakened her motivation by making it about pure jealousy. It was also so illogical, given that she was mostly mad about not getting to be chosen by Rumple to cast the curse, when casting the curse required her to kill what she loved most, and that would have been Rumple at that time. Did she not grasp that this was why she couldn't be chosen, that her casting it would have rendered the curse pointless, that Regina wasn't "chosen," she was a patsy? Though some of that's on Rumple for just being a jerk about the way he told her rather than telling her outright that he was using Regina.

While I like the idea of someone having moved into the Enchanted Forest and taken it over in their absence, and then they have to deal with that person when they're forced to return, I don't really like Zelena for that job. That villain should have been more sinister and less comical. Maybe more like if Maleficent got reconstituted and came back there, or the Snow Queen took over and buried the Enchanted Forest under ice. I like Rebecca Mader, but I think she was wasted in that role. I still think she'd have been more fun as a wacky princess, something along the lines of Fiona in Shrek or the Carol Burnett role from Once Upon a Mattress.

KingOfHearts · May 25, 2018

12 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I like Rebecca Mader, but I think she was wasted in that role. I still think she'd have been more fun as a wacky princess, something along the lines of Fiona in Shrek or the Carol Burnett role from Once Upon a Mattress.

I feel like part of the reason she was cast was because "The Wicked Witch is actually ginger" seems unexpected. It's like how Neal looks nothing like Bae and Jacinda is a PoC Cinderella. Like most things on this show, it's played for shock value.

Shanna Marie · May 26, 2018

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I feel like part of the reason she was cast was because "The Wicked Witch is actually ginger" seems unexpected. It's like how Neal looks nothing like Bae and Jacinda is a PoC Cinderella. Like most things on this show, it's played for shock value.

The weird thing about her casting is that they made the Wicked Witch British. Supposedly, they made Colin use an English accent to play Hook rather than his real accent (in spite of his character having an Irish first name) because Peter Pan was a British book, and therefore the characters had to be English. But The Wizard of Oz is an American book, so why is one of the Oz characters British? Not to mention that a lot of the stories they used are German in origin, but no one was German, so whatever.

The use of accents and culture makes very little sense in this series, and that's one thing I'd want to fix. For one thing, it seems like everyone in the multiverse speaks English. It could have been the curse giving them English as part of the memory download, except characters who weren't cursed can still communicate in English. Even people in different countries within the same world all speak the same language, and Hook can read Greek in spite of being from another world -- apparently Greek also exists in his world, in spite of no one in his world speaking anything but English. In the earlier seasons, everyone had an American accent except a few characters whose accent was part of their character (Gepetto -- the only person around with an Italian accent, for whatever reason, even though he grew up with American-accented Jiminy as his best friend and his parents gone) or whose accent had to do with casting (Belle and Rumple, using the actors' accents, more or less). Then we got more British characters when they started bringing in Peter Pan characters. In later seasons, it seemed like most of the guest cast had British accents, whether or not their characters were from British stories. They went back a little more American in the seventh season.

For another thing, accents generally mean something, since people pick them up from the people around them. If someone speaks differently from the people around them, that tells you that they likely have a different background/origin. So, take Milah and Rumple. Most of the people in the Enchanted Forest had American accents. Milah was British and Rumple was Scottish, so both of them spoke differently from the people around them. Does that mean that they were immigrants who'd come to the Enchanted Forest (was he from the same land as Merida?)? That might have partially explained how they ended up together, if they were both outsiders and had that in common. It would also explain Milah's isolation once she was estranged from her husband, if she was still considered a foreigner and was nowhere near any relatives. But if Rumple didn't grow up in that village, why was he so afraid to leave it? Was he unwilling to go back to his homeland or to Milah's homeland, where no one knew about his military cowardice? Hook's accent is somewhat similar to Milah's, so was that part of his appeal -- she was lonely and homesick, and this handsome stranger who sounded like home showed up? They could have used all that to add a layer of emotional depth to the story, but the accents were pretty much ignored.

Then we have strange things like Kay, Guinevere, and Arthur all being children together in the same village, and as adults they all have different accents. Or Murderella having an entirely different accent from everyone around her, even though she'd been around these people and not around anyone with her native accent since she was in her early teens. She wouldn't have had such a heavy accent after all those years.

So, I think I'd want to try to create cultures to go with accents so the accents would fit some kind of real-world pattern. People with different accents should probably be from different places, or have some reason to speak differently from the people around them. Based on his accent, Hook isn't from the Enchanted Forest, which makes him a triple foreigner in Storybrooke -- he's from the wrong time, he's in a strange world, and even the people from his world are from a different country than he is. Does his foreignness have anything to do with the way he's regarded? How far is Belle's land from the Enchanted Forest, if the people there speak very differently?

Rumsy4 · May 26, 2018

All the different accents in the show became ridiculous after a point. I definitely think they should have tried to build some kind of show-mythology around it. I'm really curious why they even bothered casting people from all over the place when they had no intention of making use of the actors' varied backgrounds. After Season 2, they should have had every new cast member speak with either an american or a british accent and be done with it. Aladdin with an Australian accent was the worst until Murderella came along.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Rumsy4

Rumsy4 · May 26, 2018

It seemed as if Pan was either Rumple's childhood friend or brother in the earlier episodes of 3A. I would've been fine with either of those scenarios. A de-aged loser like Malcolm turning into Peter Pan was where the "twist" lost its credibility. Malcolm/Pan was an irresponsible deadbeat, but I wouldn't call being a "coward" his primary trait. Later we find that he resented his son for his wife's loss. I think there was either a deleted scene or an unused piece of script where Rumple's father gets shots while feeling his debtors. It seems the writers threw out their original backstory in favor of this Pan-is-Rumple's-father twist and tried to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Why didn't Malcolm/Pan ever find out that his wife had turned into the Black Fairy and was also into the child-kidnapping business?

Liam was arrogant, and frankly too stupid to live (and also a murderer), but I don't think there's any question as to whether or not he loved his brother. Being forced into a parental role when he was also nothing but a boy was probably enough to explain why he turned out the way he did. It would have been nice to get a flashback actually showing that, but then, there writers were never good at transitions.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Rumsy4

Camera One · May 26, 2018

12 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

tried to fit a square peg into a round hole.

That's the story of this show. By the way, it was actually a square hole, if you went back and looked really really really really carefully.

Shanna Marie · May 26, 2018

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Why didn't Malcolm/Pan ever find out that his wife had turned into the Black Fairy and was also into the child-kidnapping business?

And now I want the episode in which they run into each other when they're both trying to kidnap the same child. Awkward!

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Liam was arrogant, and frankly too stupid to live (and also a murderer), but I don't think there's any question as to whether or not he loved his brother. Being forced into a parental role when he was also nothing but a boy was probably enough to explain why he turned out the way he did.

I have no doubt that he loved his brother, but he also seemed to underestimate his brother. It's not uncommon to think of a younger sibling as a kid, no matter how old he is, but it came across like Killian was the one with the brains and the skills and didn't even realize that about himself because his brother disregarded him and he took his brother's attitude as being the truth. That should have made for an interesting reunion in the Underworld and could have been the focus rather than the contrived conflict they created. Casting worked against them there because, really, at that time Killian should have been older than Liam, unless Liam was more than about ten years older, since Killian aged at least ten years after Liam's death. I doubt they were planning to have the brothers reunited in the afterlife when they cast for "Good Form," so since they were having Colin play the younger version of Hook, they needed an actor who looked older than Colin. If they'd cast an actor who was about the age Liam would have been in that flashback, he'd probably have been younger than Colin, so it wouldn't have been obvious that Liam was the older brother. But then when they had them reunited in the afterlife, that meant Liam was still older, even though he should have stopped aging at his death while Killian lived on. Being reunited with a Killian who was now older and more experienced would have made for an interesting jolt that really explored their dynamic and how it had become so unhealthy for Killian, even though Liam was trying to do his best in a really bad situation.

Back to the fish-out-of-water/culture clash thing mentioned above (that I keep forgetting to respond to because the thread keeps moving on before I have a chance to respond), that's one of my biggest issues with the show. One of the things that drew me to the show in the first place is that I love things that juxtapose the magical world and the ordinary world. I loved the idea of fairy tale characters living in modern America. In season one, there were hints of their fairy tale identities, so that they were living lives that approximated the modern world version of their fairy tale selves. Jiminy Cricket is a counselor-type character, so his Storybrooke self is a psychiatrist. Red Riding Hood, known for bringing food to people, is a waitress. Dr. Frankenstein is a doctor. Cinderella is a hotel maid. I was looking forward to seeing how the curse breaking would affect life in Storybrooke, but they didn't delve into it much. I would imagine that some people might continue living their Storybrooke lives that had become familiar over the 28 years, but some might rebel against that identity and try to go back to their Enchanted Forest lives while in Storybrooke. The Storybrooke radio station might have started playing medieval-style music, or possibly pop music on old instruments, or old music on new instruments -- old folk songs using a synthesizer and electric guitar. One of the bars in town might have been redecorated into being Ye Olde Tavern. People might have started wearing a mix of modern and old-fashioned clothes, with a tailor and cobbler setting up shop to make the old-fashioned clothes. There might have been clashes between people embracing the American way of life and those wanting the old social order -- the servants deciding that they were equals with the nobles, the nobles having trouble getting used to that. I still find it hard to believe that no one ever demanded a real mayoral election and ran against Regina.

Then when there were characters who weren't given curse identities/memory downloads, that should have made a big difference. They sometimes remembered to do that with Hook, but then they sometimes forgot what he knew or didn't. As I said earlier, he was in the wrong world, was likely a foreigner even in his world, and he was in the wrong time. He should have felt very lost, even if he took pains not to show it and made some effort to learn. When they did remember that he should have been clueless, Colin played the comedy beautifully, so I can't believe they didn't write more of that. The big date in 4A was such a waste because it made no sense for the character. He made a point of saying he knew how to plan a date, so he was going to plan it, and then it turned out to be such a generic modern American date. I've been on that date (but without the fight at the table), more or less, except the CPA who took me on that date was actually a little more creative (we went to the Italian restaurant for dinner, but to a separate place with a good jazz pianist for dessert). That's not a date Captain Hook would plan. I'd have expected a moonlight picnic on the beach, a sailing trip, or something like that. If he did a generic American date, we should have seen him trying to figure out what people did to court in this world, what Emma might be expecting. We should have seen him reading the copies of Cosmo Ruby left in the B&B lobby, watching romantic movies on the TV in his room at the inn and taking notes, or asking women for advice on what to do. He did see what Walsh did when he proposed to Emma, but would Hook have really wanted to copy Walsh? He seemed to think that was all wrong for her, and not just because it was the wrong guy. If he did take advice from others and plan a generic American Italian restaurant dinner date, during the date they both should have figured out that this wasn't them and ditched those plans to do something else.

We should have seen something similar with Robin. We couldn't even tell whether he got a memory download with the curse, even if he didn't get given a fake identity. If you can't tell whether Robin Hood transported to modern America has been given knowledge about modern America, you're doing it wrong. I think it might have helped if we'd seen the characters waking up in Storybrooke and seen their initial reaction to it. I guess they were going for the "Snow's pregnant!" revelation, but that would have been a surprise, no matter when or how we saw it. It would have been really fun to see how Robin and the Merry Men reacted to finding themselves in a strange world, wearing strange clothes, or to see Snow waking up to find herself nine months pregnant when she thought no time had passed. I think that would have had more shock value than the revelation to Emma, since Emma knew time had passed.

Camera One · May 27, 2018

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Casting worked against them there because, really, at that time Killian should have been older than Liam, unless Liam was more than about ten years older, since Killian aged at least ten years after Liam's death. I doubt they were planning to have the brothers reunited in the afterlife when they cast for "Good Form," so since they were having Colin play the younger version of Hook, they needed an actor who looked older than Colin. If they'd cast an actor who was about the age Liam would have been in that flashback, he'd probably have been younger than Colin, so it wouldn't have been obvious that Liam was the older brother. But then when they had them reunited in the afterlife, that meant Liam was still older, even though he should have stopped aging at his death while Killian lived on. Being reunited with a Killian who was now older and more experienced would have made for an interesting jolt that really explored their dynamic and how it had become so unhealthy for Killian, even though Liam was trying to do his best in a really bad situation.

I think even if Killian had looked older than Liam in the underworld, their dynamic would have continued on from where they left it off when Liam died. Liam would still see Hook as his little brother, since that was the last time he saw him. Hook's mind would still think of Liam as his older brother, even though he ended up living a much longer life. It would be similar to how during family gatherings, siblings often revert back to how they were when they were younger.

They addressed something similar in the 3A premiere, when Emma pointed out that she has lived the same number of years as her parents, so she has just as much wisdom. But to Snowing, it's not obvious because their minds, at least subconsciously, still think of Emma as their little baby.

Regardless, I agree that Liam and Killian would have had lots to explore in the afterlife without making Liam into a mass murderer. But it's no surprise with these Writers. They had no interest in giving David a full episode with James, or more interesting would have been an episode with David's father and James. They had no interest in revisiting Snow with her mother or her father.

andromeda331 · May 27, 2018

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

They addressed something similar in the 3A premiere, when Emma pointed out that she has lived the same number of years as her parents, so she has just as much wisdom. But to Snowing, it's not obvious because their minds, at least subconsciously, still think of Emma as their little baby.

That would have been good to explore. Did they think of Emma as their baby because that was the last time they saw her? Charming made that speech that their both. So is it like they just woke up the next day and 28 years passed and their daughter is grown? Or does Snow (since Charming was in a coma) have both feelings and both memories. The one of waking up from the Curse and finding her daughter grown and the memories of the entire last year meeting Emma for the first time and being roommates. If so how weird is that for her? Going to the Enchanted Forest was a good idea for Emma to be able to see her more then just Mary Margaret that she's used too. Emma does point out in season two how she was still alone for all her life. So she gets that feeling across. But what does she think? How does she feel to find out all of that is true? I still wonder what she thought of David considering she spent so little time with him and all she knows about him was his affair with Mary Margaret and how badly that ended, he lied to Kathryn and accused Mary Margaret of murder (when he tried to get his memory back and didn't realize he was seeing a flashback). Does she think her mother hooked up with her own Neal? Does she just forget all the stuff that happened during the Curse? Does David try to talk to her and explain what it was like under the Curse? It seems like Emma should be more cautious and suspicious of David. Or at least have a low opinion of him. I do love Snow at least brings up that she and Emma talked about things they probably should haven't which was nice and kind of true. But that's kind of another thing I wish they had explored people did what they wouldn't have done during the Curse. Was there a whole lot of apologizes after it broke? People having to deal with what they did. Did Ruby and Granny apologize to each other? How did Thomas's dad apologize to Thomas and Cinderella for almost getting rid of their child.

Camera One · May 27, 2018

1 minute ago, andromeda331 said:

Did Ruby and Granny apologize to each other?

Speaking of which, if they had really wanted to do that storyline with Ruby Slippers, you'd think they could have given Red a scene (or gasp, a whole episode) with Granny in Camelot.

andromeda331 · May 27, 2018

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Speaking of which, if they had really wanted to do that storyline with Ruby Slippers, you'd think they could have given Red a scene (or gasp, a whole episode) with Granny in Camelot.

That would have been fun. Plus they could have used her for tracking.

Camera One · May 27, 2018

10 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That would have been fun. Plus they could have used her for tracking.

Everyone in the War Council should have had a special unique skill that could help when a new megavillain came into town. In most shows, the characters in the "team" come off as intelligent and useful because they're all doing something that contributes to success. On this show, they stand talking about how they don't know what to do, and sometimes, they go to the library and pretend to open and close books since we all know it's pointless and someone (like Belle or Blue) will come in and announce a magical solution but usually it doesn't work at all, so they have to go make a deal with a villain (like Rumple) and then we get the final confrontation where everything that came before is irrelevant because some random event, object or person saves them all.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Camera One

KAOS Agent · May 27, 2018

If this show had just addressed the idea that people have feelings and emotions about things, the stories would have been much more compelling. If I watch Snowing close the door on their little girl after acknowledging that it meant sacrificing her happiness, then there damn well needed to be fallout on the other side of that. Emma shouldn't just wave it away and not care. Snowing should get to express their anger and upset with Regina for causing the whole mess rather than placating her. You can't have Snow tell Regina that she missed her daughter's entire life and have Regina simply reply, "But you found her!" and have that be remotely satisfactory. This is particularly true when Regina missing out on a bit of Henry's life is portrayed as the worst thing ever for her and no one could possibly know her pain. Why should I even care when none of it matters? It's like so many curses and whatnot magically lobotomized everyone, so no one has any long term feelings at all. Once should have had characters that had feelings and then allowed them to express them without pretending that being upset or angry is somehow evil or unheroic.

Spartan Girl · May 27, 2018

They should have left Rumple dead instead of bringing him back all the time.

ParadoxLost · May 27, 2018

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 5:56 PM, Shanna Marie said:

It works for me when Rumple involved himself in those stories to manipulate it. It works less when he just inherently happens to be all these fairytale characters or related to everyone.

Likewise with Regina being both the daughter of the Queen of Hearts and the sister of the Wicked Witch of the West.

This is an artifact of the flashback structure. They rigidly adhered to it when they should have started using it sparingly in different arcs.

It made sense in the beginning. The flashbacks made sure there was an element of fairy tale in every episode. But once they moved into tales from other lands it hurt more than it helped. They wouldn't do flashbacks with no regulars so they started making everyone related and everyone multiple fairy tale characters so they could have familiar faces in flashbacks. I think that it was even worse when they went to another land. I think that the flashbacks used up enough of the budget that they didn't have much left over for developing other lands like when they spent an arc in Neverland.

I also think the flashbacks were a lot of the reason that it felt like the arcs had a strong opener and ending and not much happened in between. It became too complicated to have a well plotted arc and have flashbacks to thematically tie in. They never really bothered to try having more than one thing going on at once so it always felt like half the group was standing around doing nothing while character X had a centric.

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 10:53 PM, Shanna Marie said:

The weird thing about her casting is that they made the Wicked Witch British

My guess is that when they originally broke this down, they were planning to play up Snowing's nanny as Mary Poppins, because she was doing a helluva job coming across as Mary Poppins, and then do a Wicked Witch surprise twist. But some time before they really started filming and promoting that arc they decided to be upfront about Wicked but the characterization didn't change too much in regards to her nanny persona.

Camera One · May 27, 2018

12 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is an artifact of the flashback structure. They rigidly adhered to it when they should have started using it sparingly in different arcs.

It made sense in the beginning. The flashbacks made sure there was an element of fairy tale in every episode. But once they moved into tales from other lands it hurt more than it helped. They wouldn't do flashbacks with no regulars so they started making everyone related and everyone multiple fairy tale characters so they could have familiar faces in flashbacks.

The root cause is their lack of creativity and interest in truly developing the characters. Bringing in new relatives/ex-enemies/retconned connections was an easy way to use the characters, especially the really boring ones like Snow, Charming and Emma (I'm talking from the Writers' perspective). People often said they should have moved away from doing the flashbacks, but A&E would never have stopped. The flashbacks were a writing crutch which allowed them to take up half the episode, and it was the vehicle for their weekly "twists". OMG, __________ helped/hurt/betrayed ____________. It allowed them to distract the viewer in such a way that they wouldn't realize that almost nothing happened in the present-day storyline, which was the case even back in Season 1.

Even if they didn't do flashbacks, I think they would have done many of these unconvincing long-lost relatives... someone new would arrive in town and we would see clandestine meetings and cryptic conversations where we don't know exactly how they knew each other. Even though this writing style was horrible, I often enjoyed the flashbacks more than the present-day, so if the writing was going to bad anyway, I'd rather have it than without. I find that on this show, the writing is so weak that when characters just describe what happened in the past, and we don't see it, I don't connect with it at all.

On the flip side, their inability to write without flashbacks meant that we got some very offensive retcons that ultimately destroyed many of the characters we loved at the beginning.

Camera One · May 27, 2018

I was thinking about the Land of Untold Stories. I've never liked it because it was so undefined. Because of that, I never thought it had much potential. The Land of Interrupted Stories might have been slightly better. But often, it was more like a land where people went to avoid dying. In that sense, were they aiming for the Land Where Time Stood Still? Which in essence is similar to the concept of Neverland.

It would have made more sense if Aladdin was there instead of Jasmine, since he was the one running away. Maybe Emma needed to assemble a team of heroes for The Final Battle, and she had to look for the lost heroes who escaped to this land, so the stories never finished playing out. These heroes didn't have to be the undefined "Saviors" with the Shears. Aladdin could have gone there because he was ashamed that he lied to Jasmine, so we could be stuck in the middle of the Aladdin story, so Aladdin still needed to face Jafar. Another "hero" who Emma could inspire might be Simba. Maybe that was where he went Hakuna Matata and he needed to come back to reality to face Scar. The Season 6 threat could have been a host of villains instead of The Black Fairy. Instead of Ashley's guilt-trip, maybe Emma could get her to step back to her role as Queen of her kingdom, which she is forced into when Lady Tremaine (one of the main villains of the season) returned. They could have gone back for some guest appearances to flesh out the stories of Mulan, Aurora, etc., so they would all be part of this final battle.

Maybe it didn't have to be just Emma assembling this team. Maybe Snow, David, Regina, Belle, etc. could all inspire someone who had a story with some parallels to their own. They could have waited until the end of the season for the Rumbelle reconciliation, so it was actually earned. Regina making amends to her victims would have been a much more powerful arc than the dumb Evil Queen is Part of Her realization. Perhaps Snow could continue her 5B goal of leaving Mary Margaret behind instead of teaching archery physics.

A&E were probably struggling with what internal struggle to give Emma, so they decided to have her face her own mortality, but that was so badly done, that I'm sure people on this forum could come up with a better arc for her without breaking her up with Hook.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Camera One

Shanna Marie · May 27, 2018

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

If this show had just addressed the idea that people have feelings and emotions about things, the stories would have been much more compelling.

That, I think, is one of the biggest problems. We're watching because we care about these characters, so it was always a big letdown when we didn't get to see them react to these major plot events. Although 2A is now one of my favorite arcs, at the time it was a huge disappointment because I'd spent the summer eagerly anticipating how the various characters would react to their situations once the curse broke -- the Charming family to each other, everyone else to Regina and Rumple, friends and family reuniting. The end of 4A was rage-inducing because after half a season of Emma talking about being afraid to love because she was afraid of losing someone, we never got to see her react to Hook being in danger, and there was no emotional response to all the stuff that had happened. They also created a self-fulfilling prophecy about which characters were "interesting." We got to see all of Regina's grief and anguish about being separated from Henry in 3B, but didn't get to see the Charmings reacting to being separated from Emma, which then makes Regina easier to identify with and makes the Charmings more flat and distant. As the series went on, it got ridiculous, like having no aftermath whatsoever to two characters being forced to be Dark Ones and a character killed and returned from the dead. If the characters don't have any kind of emotional reactions to events, the events seem to matter less and the characters become flat puppets speaking lines. If I were to rewrite the series, that's the biggest change I'd make, and it would have a massive ripple effect on the plot if you started doing that early in season 2.

4 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is an artifact of the flashback structure. They rigidly adhered to it when they should have started using it sparingly in different arcs.

It made sense in the beginning. The flashbacks made sure there was an element of fairy tale in every episode. But once they moved into tales from other lands it hurt more than it helped.

I think the flashbacks could have been used well. I liked the way they were done in season one, for the most part, telling a complete story in the flashbacks that mirrored the present-day story and explained how they ended up in that place. I think it also worked fairly well in 5A, when it was just the story of what happened in Camelot, for the most part, so it was recent past, not distant past. Most of the problem with the flashbacks was when they tried to be thematic, so the story told in the flashback had nothing to do with the plot in the present day. The worst of that for me was when they had a random (and quite silly) flashback about Snow learning to believe in herself so she could fight Regina in the episode that was about Emma having to admit that she was a Lost Girl. It was only the vaguest connection even thematically (I guess the idea was that Emma had to believe in herself to believe she could figure out the map?) and the flashback had absolutely nothing to do with the present-day story. The episode makes more sense without the flashback, rather than the flashback conveying vital or interesting information. The 3A arc would have been improved drastically by having a more coherent past story that was actually about Neverland.

The other problem with flashbacks was the "centric" structure they fell into. Instead of just writing for the ensemble and telling a story in present and past, they focused episodes on individual characters, which often brought the plot to a standstill.

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

The root cause is their lack of creativity and interest in truly developing the characters. Bringing in new relatives/ex-enemies/retconned connections was an easy way to use the characters, especially the really boring ones like Snow, Charming and Emma (I'm talking from the Writers' perspective).

I think that's a big part of it. It was easier to raise the stakes on the characters by just making the villain a mother, sister, father, foster mother than to really dig into the characters and write something with more depth. The Zelena thing, in particular, was so silly because Regina only just learned she had a sister, so it wasn't actually all that emotional for her to have to confront Zelena. She didn't care if Zelena lived or died. The Black Fairy being Rumple's mother didn't really add any emotion, just a huge level of "huh?" She was there because the prophecy said she'd fight the Savior, not because her son was there. Since she did all this stuff to try to save her son, it made no sense that she was trying to torment him, taking his child away, and all that. It doesn't change the plot if she's not Rumple's mother.

companionenvy · May 27, 2018

The flashbacks also just got so repetitive. They worked well when the show was establishing relevant backstories for these characters, especially in S1. Whether it was long, overarching plots like finding out why Rumple was so desperate for Regina to cast the Dark Curse, or more small-scale subversions like Red turning out to be the wolf, these plots were often genuinely clever and had real emotional resonance both in their own right and for our understanding of the present day.

When new characters emerged post S1, sometimes, those flashbacks had similar weight - and, especially in S2 and 3, sometimes doubled as opportunities for more backstory for originals, too: Hook's and Cora's backstories, for instance, also gave us more Rumple. The problem increasingly began the show's need to throw in more flashbacks involving characters whose past arcs were substantially complete simply for the sake of parallelism -- and, probably, inertia, as they clung to the structure that had served them well before. At a certain point, adding in yet another flashback of Regina or Hook doing something horrible is overkill and irrelevant to their stories, since we already know they've done terrible things in their past - and those things can be addressed without another flashback; for instance, we rightly didn't get a flashback of how Hook got his rings; he simply tells Emma the story. Similarly, we did see the scenes involving Rumple making the deal giving up his hypothetical second child to save Bae - but I think that was a waste of time, because while the fact that he had done so was germane to the plot and needed to be revealed, showing us those scenes didn't teach us anything new about Rumple, for whom this was just another iteration of the kind of behavior we'd seen many times before. No reason it couldn't have been revealed in present-day conversation.

Or, to use a less obvious example, in this case one in which the information wasn't something we needed to know: the episode in which Emma becomes a bail bondswoman. While it did fill in a gap in her story, by that point, it seemed like one that didn't need filling, as it didn't really tell us anything new or interesting about Emma, and actually included at lest one retcon: Emma strongly implies that she didn't have an adult record in S1, whereas the crimes she skipped bail for are clearly additional thefts after her stint in jail over the watches, by which time she would have been over 18.

Shanna Marie · May 28, 2018

22 hours ago, companionenvy said:

At a certain point, adding in yet another flashback of Regina or Hook doing something horrible is overkill and irrelevant to their stories, since we already know they've done terrible things in their past - and those things can be addressed without another flashback

There were mixed results with the "Hook did bad things" flashbacks. The one with Ursula was quite good because it fit his character, it was important for the present-day plot, and it gave him an opportunity to atone. Hook in the present learned something because of the events in the flashback, and the present-day events resolved the issue from the flashback, with Ursula getting her voice back and Poseidon and Ursula being reconciled. The one with Ariel and Blackbeard in season 3 was a mixed bag. On the one hand, Ariel and Hook were so much fun together and Blackbeard was a potentially good character, plus we got in some rare swashbuckling, and the flashback was critical to setting up the present-day plot. On the other hand, the present-day plot was really dumb, and the moral dilemma was a bit bogus, given that Ariel easily resolved her problem without Hook giving up his ship. And then later events undermined the story even further, with Ariel later finding out that Blackbeard having the Jolly Roger was a bad thing and then the contradictory issue with Hook here being afraid of not being seen as a badass pirate but later him killing a witness to his crime. I guess it was after season 4 when they seemed to be reaching. The killing his own father story ended up being more or less meaningless, didn't fit previously established continuity, and had nothing to do with the present-day plot other than maybe vaguely fitting a similar theme. And we've gone on at length about how dumb the killing David's father plot was. The Liam 2.0 and Nemo flashback didn't quite fit the pattern, since Hook didn't really do anything awful other than bail after he escaped Liam 2.0 trying to kill him.

It's weird how they came up with little loopholes to the timeline, like the cake runs during the Neverland years or the possibility that Hook was out having adventures while being frozen in time by the curse, rather than explore other eras. Given the number of characters who were immortal, extremely long-lived, or who'd been frozen in time in some way, they could have still had Hook interacting with people who were relevant to the present-day story during the time period when he turned his life around once he got into the Navy or during the time period when he made the transition from naval officer to pirate, and those eras would have been relevant to some of the present-day plots, thematically.

As for Regina, the problem there is that there was a relatively short span of time to flash back to while she was the campy Evil Queen that they love so much, and that meant we must have seen almost every moment of her adult life before the curse. In season one alone, we got all the relevant bits. Everything after that was mostly retcon that was irrelevant to the big-picture plot. Did we really learn anything new and important to her character from any post-season one flashback that we couldn't have guessed or that was critical to understanding the present-day plot? There was the pixie dust and tattoo thing that set up Robin (badly), but what else?

I think they'd have improved the show a lot if they'd moved on from the Regina vs. Snow story for flashbacks and let any fairybacks be strictly relevant to the current plot. A lot of the problem was that they too often did things because they wanted to and not because that was what the story needed.

tennisgurl · May 29, 2018

Something that I find to be interesting/sad is that, with different framing, Regina could have been a really interesting, scary, and even tragic villain. Lets say that, in this AU show, Regina has her same backstory, and things are pretty much the same until season one ends, and then, we start to see Regina as she truly is.

Regina is a woman who, due to her mothers emotional abuse, the trauma of Daniels death, and her mental health issues that she never dealt with, has an extreme need to be loved and validated by others (maybe even crank up Cora's abuse of Regina's isolation), but due to her psychosis and lack of empathy, she cant make any actual human connections, or when she does, it goes badly. She reaches out, and craves love and attention, but the second things dont go her way, or someone brings something up that she doesn't like, she lashes out violently, and then, when people react badly to her violent actions, she gets even worse. She wants love, but has no idea how to give it anymore. She is so lacking in empathy, that she truly doesn't understand why people keep being upset with her when she kills people, and wont instantly forgive her. She is basically stuck in a state of arrested development. A womanchild with the ability to slaughter dozens with the flick of a wrist. She tries to join the good guys, because she wants that human connection, but it always falls apart due to her selfish, unstable personality. She becomes a terrifying villain, but also pitiable and even tragic.

Thats basically how she is in cannon, but with the framing of "Regina is the flawless hero and woobie victim always" instead of "Regina is deeply selfish and delusional and thinks that she is the flawless hero and woobie victim always, when she really isnt."

This would also give Regina more to do as a character, and give her more agency in the story. By the end of the show, Regina had very little to do with the story. She kind of just reacted to stuff, pined over guys, and was a pawn between other characters.

KingOfHearts · May 29, 2018

42 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Something that I find to be interesting/sad is that, with different framing, Regina could have been a really interesting, scary, and even tragic villain. Lets say that, in this AU show, Regina has her same backstory, and things are pretty much the same until season one ends, and then, we start to see Regina as she truly is.

Snow is another character that with different framing, could've been more interesting. If you subtract S1, Snow's flaws are consistent and make for an intriguing dil-Emma. (Thank you, I'll be here all week.) She has a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome for Regina, she believes in baseless optimism instead of finding realistic solutions, she's pushy, has a lofty morality complex, a literal identity crisis, poor leadership skills, and a distinct negligence toward family and friends. What if instead of doing the hard thing, like killing to save everyone, Snow makes a hope speech instead and it has dire consequences? What happens when her philosophy doesn't work in our world? How does Emma feel about being seconded by her baby brother? Does Charming worry that his wife hangs too much around Regina?

After the Missing Year, Snow stopped doing anything to resolve any problems, other than hope speeches. She did nothing in 4A to help Emma feel accepted, nothing she did healed the conflict with Emma over the eggnapping, she sat around twiddling her thumbs in 5A (and when she did do something, like trick Arthur, it was all for nothing), and she was asleep for most of S6. The only major exception was her getting Hercules to help in 5B. Her actions never determine the course of the main plot.

Once Upon a Time has so many tragic characters. If their flaws were treated as weaknesses rather than strengths, it would be a very interesting case study in abnormal psychology. Making it about fairy tales is just the icing on the cake.

Edited May 29, 2018 by KingOfHearts

Camera One · May 29, 2018

With characters like Regina and Rumple, it is so easy to figure out what A&E COULD have done that you wonder why they still failed. With characters like Snow, I think A&E were just completely stuck. They didn't know what to do with her, they didn't know how to keep her interesting, or how to give her depth or how to keep her relevant. If you asked them, I'm pretty sure they would disagree that Snow was not well written after 2A but that's because they can't say they found her boring so she became boring.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Camera One

Shanna Marie · May 29, 2018

55 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She has a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome for Regina, she believes in baseless optimism instead of finding realistic solutions, she's pushy, has a lofty morality complex, a literal identity crisis, poor leadership skills, and a distinct negligence toward family and friends.

And so much of that comes down to the effect Regina had on her life. She loved Regina as a stepmother and tried to please her, not knowing that Regina hated her or why. It seems like as she grew up, she figured out that Regina hated her, but she didn't know what had happened to Daniel. Knowing Regina hated her but not knowing why must have been confusing, and as much of a people pleaser as Snow is, that probably triggered the Stockholm Syndrome. There may be a bit of an emotionally abused child thing going on there, too, where Snow blames herself for Regina's attitude toward her, and Snow tries to placate her to keep her temper from flaring. She's so intent on winning Regina's impossible to obtain love that she neglects everyone else in her life. The identity crisis is the result of the curse and being turned into Mary Margaret for all that time. The poor leadership skills likely came from her having her throne stolen from her and her father murdered, so she didn't really learn to be a queen. Snow could have used a few sessions with Archie. There's some interesting material in there if they'd actually acknowledged all this, how screwed up Snow was because of her upbringing and everything Regina did to her, and if they'd really honestly addressed her struggle to find herself. You'd think that badass bandit Snow would have hated having been turned into meek Mary Margaret and would have fought to get away from that identity after the curse broke.

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

She did nothing in 4A to help Emma feel accepted, nothing she did healed the conflict with Emma over the eggnapping

This is where David's attitude toward Hook, when he gets all "you awful pirate, stay away from my daughter," gets awfully hypocritical because the Charmings turned all the conflict from the eggnapping over to Hook to deal with. It was Hook who reconciled Emma with her parents, not anything they did.

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Once Upon a Time has so many tragic characters. If their flaws were treated as weaknesses rather than strengths, it would be a very interesting case study in abnormal psychology. Making it about fairy tales is just the icing on the cake.

I think that's what's so frustrating, that they actually created some really complex and fascinating stuff, but they don't seem to have recognized what they created. Regina is a perfect portrait of a narcissistic sociopath, but they didn't seem to see that at all and wrote her as a great victim/hero. Snow has all this conflict going on with trying to be some kind of perfect princess, but she's better off when she's being real, even though she considers that realness to be failure. But they don't seem to recognize Snow's screwups and consider her strengths to be failures. I will never forgive them the "black spot on the heart" nonsense for what I consider to be Snow's greatest, most heroic deed in using Cora's own dark magic that she'd tried to trick Snow with as a way to save a life and stop Cora before she made herself the Dark One and became impossible to beat. I can see Snow feeling bad about involving Regina the way she did, given the Stockholm Syndrome, but no one else should have agreed with her, and Henry should have been given a stern talking to the moment he spouted off "heroes don't kill people." That's not even accurate from reading fairy tales. Heroes kill people all the time in fairy tales. In Henry's book, the Charmings fought a war. What does he think that entailed?

KingOfHearts · May 29, 2018

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

In Henry's book, the Charmings fought a war. What does he think that entailed?

Just an alternate take from the Pilot:

Charming: "Better let these Black Knights kill me and my infant daughter! After all - heroes don't kill! They just let people die."

If the Charmings had the Trolley Problem, they'd just let five people get run over.

Quote

Henry should have been given a stern talking to the moment he spouted off "heroes don't kill people."

Let's count how many Disney characters have dark spots on their heart for killing the villain. We've got Eric, Philip, Hercules... Mulan's heart should be freaking charcoal since she slaughtered an entire army.

Edited May 29, 2018 by KingOfHearts

Inquirer · May 29, 2018

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Let's count how many Disney characters have dark spots on their heart for killing the villain. We've got Eric, Philip, Hercules... Mulan's heart should be freaking charcoal since she slaughtered an entire army.

Um, Hercules didn't kill Hades - Hades is a god, remember? Herc punched him into the River Styx and he was "flushed" down it like a toilet, with dialogue from Pain and Panic showing that the possibility is that he never gets out of there, not that he dies. (Also, at the very ends of the credits, Hades' voice suddenly pops up and gives a funny monologue complaining about how he's the only one to end up with nothing.)

Edited May 29, 2018 by Inquirer

KingOfHearts · May 29, 2018

1 minute ago, Inquirer said:

Um, Hercules didn't kill Hades - Hades is a god, remember? Herc punched him into the River Styx and he was "flushed" down it like a toilet, with dialogue from Pain and Panic showing that the possibility is that he never gets out of there, not that he dies. (Also, at the very ends of the credits, Hades' voice suddenly pops up and gives a funny monologue complaining about how he's the only one to end up with nothing.)

Damning someone for eternity is pretty equivalent, imo.

Shanna Marie · May 29, 2018

The whole "Heroes don't kill people" thing is particular galling on Memorial Day, when we're honoring people who were heroes and who very likely killed people. The slaves wouldn't have been freed if the Union army had refused to kill anyone. Europe wouldn't have been liberated from the Nazis if the Allied soldiers hadn't been willing to kill because they wanted to be heroes. In my rewrite of that scene, David sits down with Henry and tells him that heroes do sometimes have to kill, but the difference between a hero and a villain is that a hero kills to save other people and doesn't take it lightly, while villains kill to hurt others. Killing Cora may have saved countless lives and allowed the people of Storybrooke to be free rather than enslaved to a power-hungry, evil, immortal sorceress, so even though Snow feels bad about it, she did what had to be done. A hero is someone who will do the difficult thing for the sake of others.

Camera One · May 29, 2018

23 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But they don't seem to recognize Snow's screwups and consider her strengths to be failures. I will never forgive them the "black spot on the heart" nonsense for what I consider to be Snow's greatest, most heroic deed in using Cora's own dark magic that she'd tried to trick Snow with as a way to save a life and stop Cora before she made herself the Dark One and became impossible to beat.

I was surprised by that "twist" because I've never seen a show turn the defeat of an evil villain (a villain who had massacred an entire safe haven) into something the hero should be deeply ashamed of, enough to believe she should die for it. It was beyond twisted. And then in episodes like "Bleeding Through", neither Charming nor Emma defended Snow against Regina's snide remarks about the "murderer". And they had Henry equate what Snow did to being just as evil as Regina. He never found out that Cora had murdered Johanna while Regina looked on? It was such injustice, yet it was portrayed as if Snow deserved the shaming. In the episode where Greg tortured Regina, Snow had to get that eyedrop so she could experience the pain as well as penance for what she did.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Camera One

tennisgurl · May 29, 2018

Why wasn't Henry shrieking about how heroes dont kill when Charming killed Sir Percival, and everyone just left his dead body on the ground, including his liege lord and friends? And his only crime was wanting to get revenge on the psychopath who killed his family, and reacted to him telling her who he was not with apologizes, but with smirking threats. Not so evil compared to Cora or Cruella, huh? But I guess that was alright...

And Henry freaking out about heroes killing people is especially laughable considering his mom he worships has a body count so big she cant even remember all the people she has had killed, or killed personally.

23 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Let's count how many Disney characters have dark spots on their heart for killing the villain. We've got Eric, Philip, Hercules... Mulan's heart should be freaking charcoal since she slaughtered an entire army.

And thats just from the animated cannon! I mean, Captain America is one of the goodest good guys in Marvel, but he certainly killed people. Didn't like it, but did it because if he didnt, other people would die. I wish someone had actually explained that to Henry instead of letting him guilt trip everyone.

Camera One · May 29, 2018

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And Henry freaking out about heroes killing people is especially laughable considering his mom he worships has a body count so big she cant even remember all the people she has had killed, or killed personally.

Henry actually walked in on Regina almost murdering David in "Broken". If Henry hadn't walked in then, Regina might have actually killed his grandfather. So Henry knowing that Regina hurt people violently isn't even simply theoretical.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Camera One

Inquirer · May 29, 2018

13 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Henry actually walked in on Regina almost murdering David in "Broken". If Henry hadn't walked in then, Regina might have actually killed his grandfather. So Henry knowing that Regina hurt people violently isn't even simply theoretical.

And in "Desperate Souls", he also instinctively knew that she was the one who killed Graham.

andromeda331 · May 29, 2018

Henry also knew his family was about to battle Cora and Regina in season two who were on their way to Gold's shop to murder him. What did he think was going to happen? Someone was going to end up dead in that situation. He gets mad that Snow murdered the biggest threat at the time? The woman who would have most likely murdered his entire family and destroyed the town. Why isn't he mad at Regina? She sided with her mother to murder his grandfather and become the Dark One.

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