S06.E10: START

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Also, although P&E do all kind of jobs that irl would have done by several persons, putting just Elizabeth to kill Mr and Mrs Teacup who were such minor traitors was an odd decision from the Center when Elizabeth was in such a vital role in the Coup, so it would have been wisest to save her from such a trivial task. 

Yeah, they've done that from the beginning though, so it's a cheat I've accepted.  But yes, the KGB had break in squads (the mail robot) and hit squads (all the murders) available, and they would never have used valuable long term embedded agents like Phil and Liz for any of that.  Ever.

What bothers me most is all the cutesy stuff the writers did though, specifically in the final two seasons.   Renee crap, no real guards on Teacups, extended hole digging, skipping over critical years, endless murders in the final short season, artsy stuff that really didn't work for me, or forced, unbelievable stuff, and not bothering to really end the story, while deliberately leaving every character in mortal peril.

While I understand the critics rooting for this show?  If they had been more critical, especially with season 5?  Maybe we would have had a better final season.  Seasons 1-4 are still one of my favorite ever on TV though.

[Chaos Theory]

The people who don't like the ending mention that P&E are just a few years shy of being able to return to the US.  But the more I think about it the more I think that its not even remotely true.  Yes the USSR is a few years shy of falling but P&E are still wanted fugitives in the US and even if we disregard the espionage charges there are a bunch of kidnapping and murder charges that if the FBI connect them to they could spend the rest of their lives in prison for.  If Philip is ever connected to Armidore he could possibly even get the death penalty.    There is no way they would ever return to the US.  

Once restrictions loosen they might risk phone calls and letters but those would be heavily monitored by the FBI especially to Paige.  I am not even getting into Paige because I don't want to debate how important or intelligent she was or was't.  That is zero sum game for me.  So I tap out.  

Quote

Also, although P&E do all kind of jobs that irl would have done by several persons, putting just Elizabeth to kill Mr and Mrs Teacup who were such minor traitors was an odd decision from the Center when Elizabeth was in such a vital role in the Coup, so it would have been wisest to save her from such a trivial task. 

The show occasionally had other Directorate S operatives.  They always died pretty quickly though.   Its a cheat but its one you have to accept to enjoy the show.  

Edited December 1, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

The show occasionally had other Directorate S operatives.  They always died pretty quickly though.   Its a cheat but its one you have to accept to enjoy the show.  

Yeah, but NO Directorate S operatives would be risked in everyday B and E, or assassinations, the KGB had special teams for that.

The show broke that rule from the beginning though, to make it more exciting.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The people who don't like the ending mention that P&E are just a few years shy of being able to return to the US.

People said the same odd thing about Martha, as if Martha was in the USSR to hide out from Soviets instead of Americans. Similarly, people often suggested Martha would be traded for captured Russian spies, as if she had the same value to the CIA that a KGB spy would have to the KGB.

Presumably any physical contact the kids had with their parents later on, if any, would be in other countries. We don't know what would be going on in the kids' lives as adults but there's plenty of reasons they might want to be very careful about that contact despite not having any ties to Russia or espionage or whatever themselves. It's certainly possible they could have contact, though, I guess. It's not like it's a secret that these are their parents so they'd have reasons for wanting to talk to them or even exchange gifts or money from them that had nothing to do with espionage.

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That's what the writers say, but I think that there had been better ways to put pressure on Elizabeth than several murders in S6. To me, it was the emotional cost to f.ex. Young Hee that felt the heaviest. 

Wow, I really don't like that quote. It makes it sound like they didn't think the murders through beyond how Elizabeth was a bloody badass. It almost makes me wonder if they saw a lot of things that went on with her as bad luck that unfortunately amped up the pressure even more. To me it played like being burnt out made Philip reckless and Elizabeth sloppy. Maybe that's just a case of it coming across wrong in interviews--Elizabeth clearly is losing control on everything in her life in S6. Very few of her psy-ops operations go well, most of her murders get her nothing or worse and, perhaps most obviously, she eventually loses her grip on her personal relationships as well when both Philip and Paige (and more passively Henry) all throw off her control.

But all that is how the murders etc. relate to Elizabeth personally. There isn't the same kind of focus at all on how it effects other people, like the FBI. When these things are used for the plot it tends to be in a pretty limited way. Compare that to the deaths of Amador and the agents blown up in S1. As others have said, even the people standing around Nestyenko don't seem to react to Tatiana dropping dead at their feet.

[Roseanna]

From the same interview:
 

Quote

 

Do you still consider Philip and Elizabeth heroes rather than antiheroes?

Fields: An antihero is somebody who’s doing something out of selfish motivations or sociopathology. But these are people—we may not agree with their beliefs or with the cause to which they’ve devoted themselves, but they’ve sacrificed an enormous amount to be soldiers in this struggle for what they believe is right.

 

I like this series because it makes to think; would we accept P&E's deeds if they were on "our" side? 

Still, I think Fields fails to see that even Fascists could "sacrifice an enormous amount" "for what they believe is right", but they aren't heroes except from the POV of other Fascists of course) whereas we could see some "enemies" heroes.  

In this case, obviously P&E are partly acting as Patriots and sometimes they even act for the good of the mankind (preventing the war). But E's ideal is Communism and it's essential if it is an illusion or not. Plus, even if it were real, do she really have a right to sacrifice others for it.   

In his book The vanishing hero Sean O'Faolain crititicizes Hemingway:

Quote

For we suddenly realize that heroism for heroism's sake is not quite good enough, and we begin, uneasily, to probe into the nature of heroism itself? We ask: In a gangster not also a brave man? In other words, we come to the point where we feel that is impossible for any writer to deal satisfyinly with heroism without considering values, which means the development of an implicit criticism of the forces that produce these motoves, which means in the long run that the author has to imply his own norm.

- - -

The evident truth, as most of us see it, about the heroic deeds is that they are done, as a rule, for two main reasons: in the name of the system, or an ideal, or a religion, or some social nexus which the hero chooses to represent, or else for some wholly personal vision. But whether the motivation be public or privat e we cannot dissociate the action from impulse. Otherwise the ganster, the murderer, the pimp, the kidnaper dying bravely would be entitled to call himself a hero.    

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Still, I think Fields fails to see that even Fascists could "sacrifice an enormous amount" "for what they believe is right", but they aren't heroes except from the POV of other Fascists of course) whereas we could see some "enemies" heroes.  

I think the show itself really makes the case that heroism for heroism's sake isn't enough, honestly. Isn't that what Elizabeth so often represents? The person who wants to follow orders as an end in itself because she's so terrified of giving into the enemy in some vague way? Isn't that ultimately the example she's setting for Paige as well, since she's so vague on what's going on and how this is all supposed to work but just knows what she wants to feel like she's doing? By S6 a lot of the sacrifices Elizabeth is making seem to be other people. She's miserable and joyless herself, sure, but she's also tossing people into a meat grinder every week and being numb to it. We know she has faith that this is necessary for the greater good, but we also know that faith is easier for her.

Where as Philip explicitly says that it's the responsibility of a person to own their own actions and think whether they're right or wrong. He ultimately just doesn't think it's moral to sacrifice people right and left on the faith that it will somehow make the world better when he's seen so much evidence that he's simply protecting powerful people who want more power--the opposite of what his own values are supposed to be. Philip's the enemy you could work with--as, obviously, is Oleg.

It does often sound like the creators admire Elizabeth in this way while a lot of the audience doesn't, but they still wrote her in the end as someone who needed to be saved from herself by Philip rather than vice versa. And they did have a pattern of writing plots where Elizabeth got what she wanted and only then saw it was terrible. (Philip gets that in S6 too, but his personality is such that it's not a shock to him imo.)

[Roseanna]

Quote

Vanity Fair: The moment the Jenningses realize they’re going to have to leave Henry behind forever is really horrifying on many levels. It felt like the culmination, in some ways, of this self-sacrifice that they’ve put themselves through.

Joel Fields: We felt like this really was, ultimately, as romantically tragic an ending as they could experience. Joe and I are both parents, and what could be worse than having to leave your children behind forever?

I think Field's answer shows that he has lived so a comfortable life that he can't imagine things that has been common to many people, and still are in some parts of world.

Paige and Henry are alive - many parents have seen their children die. And emigrants and refugees sometimes could no more meet their parents or children.

"What could be worse" would be IMO if P&E had somehow caused the death of their children - or either of them had died and the other left alone.          

[Umbelina]

On 12/2/2018 at 9:33 AM, Roseanna said:

Quote

Vanity Fair: The moment the Jenningses realize they’re going to have to leave Henry behind forever is really horrifying on many levels. It felt like the culmination, in some ways, of this self-sacrifice that they’ve put themselves through.

Joel Fields: We felt like this really was, ultimately, as romantically tragic an ending as they could experience. Joe and I are both parents, and what could be worse than having to leave your children behind forever?

I think Field's answer shows that he has lived so a comfortable life that he can't imagine things that has been common to many people, and still are in some parts of world.

Paige and Henry are alive - many parents have seen their children die. And emigrants and refugees sometimes could no more meet their parents or children.

"What could be worse" would be IMO if P&E had somehow caused the death of their children - or either of them had died and the other left alone.          

Yes, and it's another reason why the ending didn't work for me.

Another "WORSE" that I obviously think is likely, but the show didn't go there, or rather, never resolved a damn thing?

Paige in prison for a very long time.  Henry yanked out of private school and a ward of the court, eventually placed in a group home since older "kids" are rarely put into a foster family, also suspected, since there is no way in any universe Paige will hold up under the kind of FBI questioning she will endure, and the next natural step is to suspect Henry.

No.  Stan won't protect them, because it will take less than an hour of questioning for Paige to reveal Stan let spies and murderers go, and he'll likely be in prison as well, or at the very least, out of a job.  Actually, the only real question is if Stan will tell the FBI that Renee may be KGB, or try to find out on his own (if he isn't in prison.)  After that, again, if he's not in prison, the most likely outcome for Stan, IMO, is to eat a bullet.  His life is shit now.

I agree with you, there are MUCH worse things that could have happened.  Personally, I think they will happen, but again, the show wimped out.

[sistermagpie]

36 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree with you, there are MUCH worse things that could have happened.  Personally, I think they will happen, but again, the show wimped out.

Yeah, I felt like the ending for the leads was basically like the beginning. They started out again the way they had 20 years earlier together. That even seems implied with the last line. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I felt like the ending for the leads was basically like the beginning. They started out again the way they had 20 years earlier together. That even seems implied with the last line. 

I go right back to what I've said before.

As an episode?  I adored it, I really did.

As a finale?  I'm seriously pissed off.

Ha.

[Umbelina]

On 12/1/2018 at 12:25 AM, Roseanna said:

I like this series because it makes to think; would we accept P&E's deeds if they were on "our" side? 

Yes, and honestly, I think most here have done that for the run of the series, I know I have. 

They really took it too far in the last season though, more murders than ever, and in a very short season.

On 11/30/2018 at 2:34 PM, Roseanna said:

What cops generally do, can never predict how an individual cop would act.

Also, is Stan really a cop in his heart any more? Or does he see spies as soldiers of their countries? And soldiers who had fought against each other could drink together after the war.

After seeing that child, who walked through the grisly blood of his mother and step dad?  He saw that crime scene, and the FBI is a tight organization, his brother officers were just killed, right before Christmas, their families grieving.  He murdered a relative innocent when Amador was killed.  No, I don't believe Stan would let that go, ever.  Also, he just gave that long patriotic speech at Thanksgiving, making his feelings about Soviets perfectly clear.

Another odd choice by these writers, if they were going to have this ending.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

After seeing that child, who walked through the grisly blood of his mother and step dad?  He saw that crime scene, and the FBI is a tight organization, his brother officers were just killed, right before Christmas, their families grieving.  He murdered a relative innocent when Amador was killed.  No, I don't believe Stan would let that go, ever.  Also, he just gave that long patriotic speech at Thanksgiving, making his feelings about Soviets perfectly clear.

 

Interesting, btw, that in Mutually Assured Destruction Stan is *not* there in the aftermath of the explosion where the rest of the office is in shock.

[Dobian]

Just finished watching the series for the first time.

 

BRAVO

[Lady Iris]

It killed me staying away from the forums here for these last two episodes but I am so glad I did. What a phenomenal ending. What an absolute gut punch when the train moved and Paige was outside. I knew something major was afoot with U2’s song playing.

Admittedly I’m very spoiled having jumped on this bandwagon after it ended but I have never enjoyed binge watching a show more than The Americans.

I didn’t know Matthew Rhys before this show but I can’t wait to see him in other stuff. Keri Russell really is amazing. I never watched Felicity but her acting reputation preceded her. I loved the mini Walking Dead reunion with Noah Emmerich‘s Dr. Jenner and Laurie Holden’s Andrea. I’ll forever watch Margo Martindale in anything. She and Frank Langella were perfect in their roles.

I hate we weren’t given the definitive ending for Oleg but I suppose it’s fair to say he never will see home again which is so damn sad. 

[Dobian]

There are just way too many things for me to write about all at once.  This show nailed it on everything.  The character and story arcs, the acting performances,  I choked up when they called Henry and it was totally spontaneous.  And I felt the same thing at Elizabeth's reaction to seeing Paige on the train platform.  The moment when Stan finally confronts them after six seasons,  The payoffs were just huge.  Resolving every major plot thread but leaving just a few tantalizing things out there... will Stan get that message to the Russians? (since Gorby stayed in power, I assume he did),  Will Oleg spend the next twenty years in prison or will he get released after Gorbachev learns of his heroism?  Is Renee really a Russian spy?  What will Paige do on her own in America?  Will she look after Henry?  The show stuck the landing, and that was my only concern coming into season 6.  One of my favorite series ever.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

will Stan get that message to the Russians? (since Gorby stayed in power, I assume he did), 

This one isn't left hanging. It wasn't Stan who was getting the message to the Russians, it was Philip and Elizabeth. It was Philip's message that Oleg was trying to send when he was intercepted. Oleg would have given it to Arkady, which is who Philip and Elizabeth gave it to.

[Dobian]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This one isn't left hanging. It wasn't Stan who was getting the message to the Russians, it was Philip and Elizabeth. It was Philip's message that Oleg was trying to send when he was intercepted. Oleg would have given it to Arkady, which is who Philip and Elizabeth gave it to.

Oh that makes sense.  Duh, that should have been immediately obvious to me.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Dobian

[Umbelina]

13 hours ago, Dobian said:

Oh that makes sense.  Duh, that should have been immediately obvious to me.

 

There is a cool thread here that does nothing but speculate on the futures of all of the characters.  Americans Part Two I think, or something like that.

eta

here you go

Edited January 11, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

[CherithCutestory]

This was the perfect finale. I am so happy they didn't go the easy, lazy way and tie everything up in a neat little bow. We've followed these murderers for six seasons. It would be disingenuous to now give them some morally righteous ending because now, after seasons of enjoying watching them, they must really pay! No, absolutely not. They've always been crafty enough to get out of these situations. There is no reason to think they can't now because a show is ending. It's would be  disrespectful to the audience to go out in such a trite way.

The consequences were all based on their actions. They were great spies but shit parents. Great spies but bad friends. The hurt comes out of those failures not the idea that they won't be able to escape gunfire or talk themselves out of situation this last time unlike every other time. 

On 1/10/2019 at 11:06 PM, sistermagpie said:

This one isn't left hanging. It wasn't Stan who was getting the message to the Russians, it was Philip and Elizabeth. It was Philip's message that Oleg was trying to send when he was intercepted. Oleg would have given it to Arkady, which is who Philip and Elizabeth gave it to.

And part of the reason Stan let them go was because of his conversation with Oleg. Sure, mostly Philip wove his spell. But Elizabeth and Philip saying they had to get the message back was part of it. Because he knew it did matter who the leader of the Soviet Union was. And to paraphrase what he said to Mrs. Gaad, revenge isn't enough of a reason to make the whole world suffer. 

Oleg and Stan's long-term relationship paid off as much as Philip and Stan's. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by CherithCutestory

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

This was the perfect finale. I am so happy they didn't go the easy, lazy way and tie everything up in a neat little bow. We've followed these murderers for six seasons. It would be disingenuous to now give them some morally righteous ending because now, after seasons of enjoying watching them, they must really pay! No, absolutely not. They've always been crafty enough to get out of these situations. There is no reason to think they can't now because a show is ending. It's would be  disrespectful to the audience to go out in such a trite way.

The consequences were all based on their actions. They were great spies but shit parents. Great spies but bad friends. The hurt comes out of those failures not the idea that they won't be able to escape gunfire or talk themselves out of situation this last time unlike every other time. 

I agree that Stan arresting P/E or shooting them on revenge would indeed have been a very lame ending as this wasn't that kind of show.

But I confess that, especially since their since wedding in the style of Romeo and Juliet, I expected for, and was afraid of, a tragic end, i.e. both or the other dead, not by Stan's conscious decision but by some tragic mistake of Philip or Elizabeth.

S6 put P/E in the opposed camp, so there seemed to be a possibility that the other would kill the other - although that would have been totally against the Romeo and Juliet theme. But Philip knew Elizabeth and dared to tell her the truth which was consistent with their relationship since S1. 

I am quite content the actual ending that, although a surprise of a kind, is consistent with how the writers have presented not only P/E but also Stan.

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎12‎.‎2018 at 11:09 PM, Umbelina said:

After seeing that child, who walked through the grisly blood of his mother and step dad?  He saw that crime scene, and the FBI is a tight organization, his brother officers were just killed, right before Christmas, their families grieving.  He murdered a relative innocent when Amador was killed.  No, I don't believe Stan would let that go, ever.  Also, he just gave that long patriotic speech at Thanksgiving, making his feelings about Soviets perfectly clear.

I find Stan's speech rather corny. People who make a show of their patriotism often don't act according to their words. Perhaps Stan who had made friends with Oleg wanted to persuade himself to hate the Soviets. 

Before all, although the Soviets had an ability to destroy the US in the atomic war, they had no ability whatsover to destroy "the American way of life" - only the Americans themselves could do it. 

Although I think that death was a far too severe punishment to such small actors than Sofia and Gennadi, I have no particular sympathy towards them, either. Whereas Nina was blackmailed to treason by Stan, Sofia and Gennadi chose to betray their country out of sheer greed. Well, Sofia also wanted a better life for her son, but she also endangered him besides herself and Gennadi, not only once but twice when she foolishly wanted to give up Gennadi for another man.   

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

This was the perfect finale. I am so happy they didn't go the easy, lazy way and tie everything up in a neat little bow. We've followed these murderers for six seasons. It would be disingenuous to now give them some morally righteous ending because now, after seasons of enjoying watching them, they must really pay! No, absolutely not. They've always been crafty enough to get out of these situations. There is no reason to think they can't now because a show is ending. It's would be  disrespectful to the audience to go out in such a trite way.

The consequences were all based on their actions. They were great spies but shit parents. Great spies but bad friends. The hurt comes out of those failures not the idea that they won't be able to escape gunfire or talk themselves out of situation this last time unlike every other time. 

I really feared an ending that tied things up too much. Not even just in this regard, where the characters we enjoyed watching suddenly get scolded and punished, but also just showing how the mess they created worked out for everyone. The reverberations of them in everyone's lives if far too mess and complicated to sum up. Everyone in the story is going to be working through these issues the rest of their lives.

I think part of the complication, actually, is that they weren't shit parents. What they did with their lies was objectively terrible, but the kids didn't grow up in a household devoid of love where they raised themselves etc. Season 1 especially establishes that the kids had loving, stable childhoods. Their parents watched over them, were responsible for the things in their lives. As the kids got older, especially, their parents' emotional issues sometimes clashed with who the kids were etc., but the same is true of many parents. So it's not like the kids getting rid of parents who already caused them nothing but pain or who had emotionally abandoned them (okay, Henry felt that way about Elizabeth in S6 but it wasn't like that his whole life and that kind of estrangement can also happen in regular families--his complaints about her even slightly echo her thoughts about her own mother she didn't dare really voice) disappeared and it turned out they were worse than the kids even thought. They're never going to be able to just delete all their happy memories of their parents who made them who they were.

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I find Stan's speech rather corny. People who make a show of their patriotism often don't act according to their words. Perhaps Stan who had made friends with Oleg wanted to persuade himself to hate the Soviets. 

I would have been cringing at that table. It did totally seem to me like Stan was trying to psych himself up into the most extreme form of USA! USA! he could. "They hate our freedom" is just such the generic battle cry in the US. Plus as stupid as I thought it was for them to go after Gennadi, he was a double agent and that's why he got targeted. I don't mean he deserved it, just that that was the practical cause and effect there, not  general hatred of the American way of life.

Edited January 13, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

On 1/13/2019 at 8:16 AM, Roseanna said:

I find Stan's speech rather corny. People who make a show of their patriotism often don't act according to their words. Perhaps Stan who had made friends with Oleg wanted to persuade himself to hate the Soviets. 

 

On 1/13/2019 at 12:22 PM, sistermagpie said:

I would have been cringing at that table. It did totally seem to me like Stan was trying to psych himself up into the most extreme form of USA! USA! he could. "They hate our freedom" is just such the generic battle cry in the US. Plus as stupid as I thought it was for them to go after Gennadi, he was a double agent and that's why he got targeted. I don't mean he deserved it, just that that was the practical cause and effect there, not  general hatred of the American way of life.

Of course it was both corny and cringeworthy.

My point was WHY include that speech and then have Stan say "Oh, Russian spies, who lied to me all along, killed my partner, and my agents, and 3 FBI agents just last week, not to mention a General and a bunch of innocents working in a warehouse, enemies of the country I love...sure...boogie on out a here guys...."

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

My point was WHY include that speech and then have Stan say "Oh, Russian spies, who lied to me all along, killed my partner, and my agents, and 3 FBI agents just last week, not to mention a General and a bunch of innocents working in a warehouse, enemies of the country I love...sure...boogie on out a here guys...."

That's why it can only come across to me as Stan almost already knowing that he's going to do something bad and almost trying to convince himself to not do that. Or trying to convince himself the people at his table couldn't be Russians because they're not like this. Though I guess the point might have been that talking to Philip and Oleg was the opposite of what Stan was saying at Thanksgiving--they weren't trying to destroy their way of life but protect the reforms etc. But given the slaughter of FBI agents that happen *after* this speech, it's hard to see it that way. You'd think those things would make more of an impression than whatever they said about the particular thing they're doing now.

Re-reading convos on this thread after replying I was surprised at something that didn't come up in a detailed way. In discussions of Paige's fate it seemed like the convo was mostly whether she could keep her mouth shut vs. the FBI finding hair or other DNA evidence to tie her to KGB crimes. But I really don't think that sort of evidence would even be Paige's biggest worry. Her cover story is more full of holes than her parents' was. Once you know about her parents her whole life looks bad.

I mean, let's just start by assuming she admits she knew her parents were spies since she was around 16 since she already showed an instinct to say that. If she tried to lie it would require a lot of people spontaneously lying for her, both those who know the truth (Stan, Tim--who works for KGB infiltrated org now and keeps a diary, Alice) and those who don't (Henry, Matthew, kids at school, kids in the church group---anyone who would describe Paige as having been focused on her parents having a secret and then seeming troubled etc.).

But it's the part we saw on the show that seems like it would be impossible to lie about because it's not just a case of her saying "No, I didn't ever work with them or know what they did" or the idea not coming up. She'd have to have an entire parallel cover life worked out in detail and with proof to a degree that conflicts what we saw on the show. The FBI would be looking at her life very closely and here's what they'd see:

She's a junior in college with no classmates who would be able to call her a close friend. But Though they could probably ID her as the girl they saw or heard about revealing surprising self-defense skills in public. Then she never went back to that bar.

She's got a roommate we never saw. The audience tended to assume that a character who isn't on screen must "never be there" but really all we saw was all of 2 times somebody dropped by Paige's place and her roommate wasn't in. Each time they ask if she's there to emphasize the conversation couldn't happen if she was there. But Paige does live with someone who'd have to have some idea of her schedule, know that Paige had afternoons and nights where she was out somewhere with no other kids to say where she was. Claiming she was at the library would be fine in the moment, but would probably fall apart if you tried to find witnesses and she spent *a lot* of time with Elizabeth during the limited time frame of S6, both during the day and at night. It's not like Paige has an ongoing excuse like always spending the night with a boyfriend so her roommate would probably wonder. Paige could not be placed during these afternoons and nights except, perhaps, if it was known she was with her mother, which is a problem. (Does she still complain about her a lot? That would make it clear they spent a lot of tie together despite Paige being in college.) Her having no friends cuts down on some prying, but her roommate would totally be aware of her having *something* going on--even more than Stavos.

Then there's presumably the classes she's taking, at least one of which we know touched on the summit and weapons, plus she mentioned sociology. What exactly is she studying and why? She'd have a major by now. Is it something that points towards world affairs?

The one relationship Paige does seem to have currently is with an intern whose boss is a senator and had some connection to the summit, an intern who bragged to her about having access to information. They'll have the same reaction to that that Elizabeth did.

Which leads to the most damning thing, which is that Paige herself may have already applied for or requested materials regarding application to intern at the state department. She's quite possibly asked Brian about the job and talked about how she's thinking about it. Might have asked somebody somewhere about it--a teacher, someone at the college. She's doing this as herself--she wouldn't be hiding it. But if that internship comes out at all now, which it very much could since Elizabeth ordered her to get on it back at Thanksgiving, that's Paige's whole plan laid out for the FBI and there's really no way to spin it as anything but deadly serious. No loyal American would consider a job in the state department while also sheltering her parents as Russian spies. Not only is she fulfilling the definition of treason as Stan describes it to Curtis in Only You, that I'm currently re-watching (If you're working for the Russians and you know it you've committed treason) but that internship reveals the sinister endgame. She can sputter that she didn't know about murders or sex all she wants, but she was intentionally trying to embed herself in the State Department to pass info to the KGB.

That's the part of the plan that Paige did know about and was totally onboard with and it's a very serious crime, one that could very obviously lead to the things she claims ignorance of in S6. Paige sees what Elizabeth did with the intern as worse because it involved sex, but there's not actually a big difference.

But even if Paige hadn't made a move on the internship yet, her life still has a very big KGB-sized hole in it the FBI would see right away, one that Paige can't cover up on her own.

[Umbelina]

It's bizarre to me that anyone thinks Paige could "stand up to FBI questioning" let alone that Stan would commit further treason by "helping her lie to the FBI."

Both Stan and Paige will be in prison.  They MIGHT cover up Stan's treason to save face, but honestly, I doubt it.  Either way?  He's out of a job.  I do think Renee is a spy, God knows Philip would know how to spot one, and he's never accused anyone else.  Renee could kill Stan I suppose, if she catches on that he suspects her.

Stan lied to the FBI, that's probably a crime as well, since he's a law enforcement officer, and he's falsifying everything he did, which Paige WILL spill about.   No question, not one.  These are professional interrogators.  They will bring in outside agents as well, since most of those agents have socialized with that family.  They will be dotting i's and crossing t's even more now than when the bug was found.

Paige's concern (according to the show) is Henry, so she will confess and take heat off him, or she would, but they will have her tangled in her lies before her first bathroom break.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's why it can only come across to me as Stan almost already knowing that he's going to do something bad and almost trying to convince himself to not do that. Or trying to convince himself the people at his table couldn't be Russians because they're not like this. Though I guess the point might have been that talking to Philip and Oleg was the opposite of what Stan was saying at Thanksgiving--they weren't trying to destroy their way of life but protect the reforms etc. But given the slaughter of FBI agents that happen *after* this speech, it's hard to see it that way. You'd think those things would make more of an impression than whatever they said about the particular thing they're doing now.

You give these writers far too much credit.  Seriously.

The fans have made them geniuses, and for the first four years, that was almost earned.   The final season was very good TV as well, it's just the entire lack of endings for anyone that bother me.

I can even live with Stan letting them go, because Noah and Mathew sold the hell out of that.   Then they "end" it before resolving what Stan will do next, how easy for them.  Create a huge deal for everyone and then exit, stage left, and tell the fans "you guys write the endings, we can't wait to read them."   The only person on screen they were slightly definite about was Oleg, when, in interviews, they say that he would never get out of prison.

Stan probably confesses, then eats a bullet, his own, or one from Renee.

Paige is in prison, probably not executed for treason.

Henry is in a foster home probably in someplace like Kansas, in public school.

Oleg's dad is probably quietly killed, mother maybe, wife? baby?  Who knows?  At the very least homeless, jobless.

Elizabeth and Philip will be killed shortly.  Claudia has important friends, and she's loose as well, and knows them better than anyone. 

I do think Claudia survives, at least until the Soviet Union falls in 2-3 years, then?  Her whole life will have been for nothing, something Elizabeth would also have to face, except she'll be long dead.

Arkady?  Magic 8 Ball says "future cloudy."  He went against his boss in the KGB, never a good move.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige's concern (according to the show) is Henry, so she will confess and take heat off him, or she would, but they will have her tangled in her lies before her first bathroom break.

Given what we saw of her perspective of the situation, I doubt she'd even think she'd need to confess to take the heat off him. I think she'd just tell the truth about knowing about her parents and tell them Henry didn't know, then assume they would believe her and that was all that mattered.

Given all the things that Paige was ultimately naive about given her actual words and actions on screen, I would easily believe that her interrogation would come as a completely surprise to her. Like she'd be completely surprised when agents were asking her for alibis for the nights when particular crimes were committed, caught her out in lies or holes in her schedule or making a shady impression on others. Even Henry would have to be careful to not throw shade on her since he saw something going on with her and her parents even before she chose to basically stay at home for college.

We've seen several spies caught or in fear of being caught on the show and Paige stands out in that she never seems aware of what this means. 

Just as an aside, I don't think her main concern was Henry. Someone once said that Henry always existed more as an idea than a character and I think Paige was projecting a lot on him there at the end. I think she cared about him, certainly, but she wasn't staying for him. In fact, I actually think Henry was more something for her in that moment than the opposite--he meant that she wouldn't be alone if she didn't follow her parents. They were in the same situation.

Edited January 15, 2019 by sistermagpie