Let's have a do-over! How The Americans might have been written better...

[Bannon]

The key to making Larrick a longer lasting and more fully developed arc would be to not write Larrick as a villain, but rather a complicated, conflicted gay man with exceptional skills, living in an era where the society which highly valued his skills, still oppressed and threatened him, forcing him to be faced with awful dilemmas. All the while being the most formidable target P and E ever would face. I think the writers just scratched the surface with this arc, and that's regrettable.

[Umbelina]

We had PLENTY of complicated and full lives characters on the show during seasons 1-4.  A 45 minute show couldn't sustain many more.  Larrick was fleshed out, but he was a bit player.  Not everyone can be regular cast, or we'd rarely be able to spend any time with Philip and Elizabeth.

• Philip
• Elizabeth
• Stan
• Aderholt
• Gaad
• Martha
• Paige (not fully, but her journey was extensive)
• Oleg
• Nina
• Arkady (mostly work, but we got to know his personality as well)
• Sandra (not a bunch of time, but I KNEW that woman)
• Claudia
• Gabriel
• Pastor Tim
• Tatianna (I miss her!)
• William
• Anton
• Kimmie
• Annelise
• Young Hee
• Amador

Hell, there were more.  My biggest issue last season was that I would have liked to know more about Tuan, the Russian couple, bad teeth woman.  I liked the characters, but we didn't get to know them really, and that doesn't take a LOT of time, it just takes good writing and making the effort.  Instead we watched holes dug and wheat grow, and both Liz and Philip had unsuccessful honey pots with two people we also didn't get to know, and didn't really want to anyway.

I really liked the first four seasons, it was last season that sucked.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

The key to making Larrick a longer lasting and more fully developed arc would be to not write Larrick as a villain, but rather a complicated, conflicted gay man with exceptional skills, living in an era where the society which highly valued his skills, still oppressed and threatened him, forcing him to be faced with awful dilemmas. All the while being the most formidable target P and E ever would face. I think the writers just scratched the surface with this arc, and that's regrettable.

Absolutely. I could see why he was just a one-season villain in the plot he appeared in, because he was so tied to the Jared mystery. But as a character on his own he would be an amazing long-term character. Not only would he bring a ton of tension and danger but we'd be seeing Philip and Elizabeth blackmailing someone outright. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

We really haven't even seen Paige dealing with the normal "multi-tasking" (stressful as it may be) for normal young college students with some social life and other obligations (in this case being available to her mother as needed/demanded).  We haven't even seen Paige say, I can't be there because I have a test (or a class) or some other commitment. 

I'm sure they'll toss in some social thing at some point to show Paige trying to be a spy in that setting, but it's amazing how her life is as empty as it's ever been. The only time we hear about a class it's when she's repeating stuff she memorized from one of her professors for Claudia. We don't know what class it is, but it only seems important because they've picked out this professor as somehow relevant to their interests, even if only to roll their eyes at him. They mention her as a college student when she rants at the dinner table with a bunch of adults. But she has no familiar names that imply a social group. Her dorm life is just something she got over with as soon as possible. We see her at Claudia's in the evening at the afternoon. Working with Elizabeth at night. Walking and talking with Elizabeth in the afternoon. In fact, we even see her walking and talking with Elizabeth in the afternoon and then saying, "See you tonight" because they'll be together again in a few hours. Elizabeth not allowing her to spend the night when she's scared seems like a pretty weak gesture towards independence.  

Nothing is holding her interest except her mother, Claudia and the people she now calls "her people." 

It shouldn't be an accident since we've got Henry being the extreme opposite. They've used his smaller period of screentime to establish that his schedule includes studying, practicing hockey, hockey games, that he's a well-known and popular student at the school and goes to classes where sometimes teachers are funny. 

[SusanSunflower]

I can see how that (expanding Larrick and carrying him over) also would have given viewers more of the dark side of P&E as spies rather than the guilt-free thrill of watching them be "awesome" ... I have many times wondered when anyone would "do the math" and notice how many of the kills were innocent bystanders or the result of bad information, poorly laid plans (hence innocent witnesses who "needed" to be killed) which I guess is why at this point (particularly with Paige in tow) I'm a bit obsessed about the absolute lack of fallout from or reference to past kills.  I hope the Naval Security guard gets some mention, even if just complicating the surveillance because of increased police presence (which may be unrealistic of me -- it's been how many days? -- but consequences, dammit!  (I realized that the first Paige witnessed killing by Elizabeth similarly should have been the talk of the volunteers of food bank for a week or two, entirely as a matter of self-interest - bad neighborhood, doncha know?)  

The corpses stacking up like firewood .... even the loss of Jared (death of a young man, son of best friends, etc.) ... was largely unmourned ... the coldness isn't just Elizabeth, it also belongs to the showrunner.  Were the elderly couple assassinated as war criminal(s) later publically identified as such or were their deaths just more random murder for the Boston PD to puzzle over?   Some of the even more random deaths -- because of their randomness and questions about why and how any intruder would have/could have reached the location, much less killed the harmless nobody individual and escaped -- might well have ended up in some seriously "hinky" not-so-cold case file having ruled out simple robbery, burglary interrupted, or domestic violence, etc.  Including more "consequences" even of "no importances" would have helped contextualize P&E (even as it triggered some twinges of conscience in viewers. Oh yeah, these are the bad guys doing ruthless things. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

With Paige, I'm just glad they haven't made her a super spy, who has read all the books, done her due diligence, and is now a committed Soviet.

Thank heavens for small blessings.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

With Paige, I'm just glad they haven't made her a super spy, who has read all the books, done her due diligence, and is now a committed Soviet.

 

Honestly, the stuff that makes her so pathetic is absolutely the thing that makes the story interesting. Hopefully that won't get snatched away by them using the last 7 eps to make her learn and fight and grow, as they insisted on advertising her. She's barely done any of those things.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, she's simply just not believeable as such .... give her a pot or two of coffee or some Ritalin and she might get some sparkle in her eyes, even crack a joke or two .... maybe even get visibly nervous ... writing and direction controls a lot of this ... it's not up to a juvenile actress to "find and develop her character" 

[Bannon]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

We had PLENTY of complicated and full lives characters on the show during seasons 1-4.  A 45 minute show couldn't sustain many more.  Larrick was fleshed out, but he was a bit player.  Not everyone can be regular cast, or we'd rarely be able to spend any time with Philip and Elizabeth.

• Philip
• Elizabeth
• Stan
• Aderholt
• Gaad
• Martha
• Paige (not fully, but her journey was extensive)
• Oleg
• Nina
• Arkady (mostly work, but we got to know his personality as well)
• Sandra (not a bunch of time, but I KNEW that woman)
• Claudia
• Gabriel
• Pastor Tim
• Tatianna (I miss her!)
• William
• Anton
• Kimmie
• Annelise
• Young Hee
• Amador

Hell, there were more.  My biggest issue last season was that I would have liked to know more about Tuan, the Russian couple, bad teeth woman.  I liked the characters, but we didn't get to know them really, and that doesn't take a LOT of time, it just takes good writing and making the effort.  Instead we watched holes dug and wheat grow, and both Liz and Philip had unsuccessful honey pots with two people we also didn't get to know, and didn't really want to anyway.

I really liked the first four seasons, it was last season that sucked.

My point was that Larrick would have been a far more compelling character if skillfully fleshed out, and he should have been, at the expense of some of the characters you list. To say the least, a lot of time of P and E trying to manipulate Larrick, at great physical risk, would have been more interesting than watching Phil supply pot and backrubs to Kimmy and her friends, an opportunity provided because the CIA is comprised of morons who can't figure out that when one of their top managers has been identified by a foreign intelligence service, his home needs to be closely watched, and he needs to be regularly swept for listening devices (ranting due to Kimmypalooza reappearing tonight).

[Umbelina]

Larrick was pretty fleshed out.

First of all, he wasn't Philip or Elizabeth's agent.  He was being blackmailed by Emmet and Leanne, and the stars of the show only became involved with him because he was a likely suspect in their murders.  They were following a lead. 

While I don't disagree that a gay, blackmailed, macho, murdering, Navy special forces traitor wouldn't have been an interesting story?  What were they going to show us?  His lovers?  Him training soldiers? His flashbacks of Vietnam or other battles?  We got the other side of the Central America conflicts from Lucia, a story which also fleshed his out, and showed the other side of the story.

I felt like we got to know Larrick, and no, I wasn't interested in more of that story, I might be in another show that focused on war, but not on this show. 

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Larrick was pretty fleshed out.

First of all, he wasn't Philip or Elizabeth's agent.  He was being blackmailed by Emmet and Leanne, and the stars of the show only became involved with him because he was a likely suspect in their murders.  They were following a lead. 

While I don't disagree that a gay, blackmailed, macho, murdering, Navy special forces traitor wouldn't have been an interesting story?  What were they going to show us?  His lovers?  Him training soldiers? His flashbacks of Vietnam or other battles?  We got the other side of the Central America conflicts from Lucia, a story which also fleshed his out, and showed the other side of the story.

I felt like we got to know Larrick, and no, I wasn't interested in more of that story, I might be in another show that focused on war, but not on this show. 

Yes, the Larrick arc needed to be written differently. That's the point. If you don't think the show would have been improved with that arc expanded, we disagree, and that's fine. 

.

[SusanSunflower]

Larrick was a credible foe ... a credible threat ... and there hasn't been another similar threat (that I remember) since his demise.  This wasn't a fear of "being detected" or outed, as being hunted and cornered like prey.   A different pulse-quickening dynamic

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, SusanSunflower said:

Larrick was a credible foe ... a credible threat ... and there hasn't been another similar threat (that I remember) since his demise.  This wasn't a fear of "being detected" or outed, as being hunted and cornered like prey.   A different pulse-quickening dynamic

I agree.  If they kept him on in that role though, either he, or the KGB, including Philip and Elizabeth would have looked stupid and incompetent.  Aside from that, because of the blackmail?  The KGB could, via secure untraceable methods, easily tip of the Navy that they had a traitor on their hands, so not only the KGB, but US military and probably the FBI would also be hunting him.

I thought he was great in the part, I just don't see it as a sustainable role on this show.  Nor would I want it to be.  I agree completely that having a few more worthy opponents would be nice.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm saying it need not have been more "Larrick" , but the introduction of another active credible threat to P&E would be welcome in a do-over ... mostly their anxiety has been about being detected or arousing suspicion in people who had no particular reason to be wary.  Martha might have marched into FBI headquarters and spilled the beans ... William in his death throes might have spilled other beans ... P&E mostly have duped and used people with remarkable success.  The FBI might have at one point been "hunting illegals" but they had nothing compelling to lead them to P&E -- bad luck and/or bad timing was their enemy. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree.  If they kept him on in that role though, either he, or the KGB, including Philip and Elizabeth would have looked stupid and incompetent.  Aside from that, because of the blackmail?  The KGB could, via secure untraceable methods, easily tip of the Navy that they had a traitor on their hands, so not only the KGB, but US military and probably the FBI would also be hunting him.

I thought he was great in the part, I just don't see it as a sustainable role on this show.  Nor would I want it to be.  I agree completely that having a few more worthy opponents would be nice.

They DID make Larrick, Phil and Liz look stupid and incompetent. The whole sneak on to the secret military base plan was stupid. First, there is no way that P and E could be confident that Larrick would not ambush them, and disappear their bodies, when they showed up at the base. Heck, if he gets a contact at the Maryland and Virginia DMVs ahead of time, he might even be able to locate their home from post death pictures of their faces, and from there it' s pretty quick work to get enough phone call data to locate the KGB operator. The whole network is threatened  by telling an effectively violent man, who you are  blackmailing, where you can be located in an isolated area. The writers wanted to have a scene of P and E getting cloaky and daggery, and this is what they came up with., instead of writing a more credible and drawn out blackmail story.

[Novel8]

Has anyone besides me find that this show has lost its way? I find them really boring, and dragging each episode just to fill the time period till the eventual end. maybe i am impatient, to finally see how it is going to end. I wish it would soon. It will probably be anti-climatic, and that won't surprise me. Remember, the last show of "The Soprano's"?

[Sarah 103]

On 4/18/2018 at 10:32 AM, Bannon said:

I strongly believe that the show would have been better if it had not crammed in every season, prior to this one, into the years 1981-1984.

Agreed. More time jumps would have helped. While this is often difficult with child actors, Mad Men managed to cover 10 years in 7 seasons without too much of an issue. The key was time jumps between seasons. 

On 4/18/2018 at 12:06 PM, Bannon said:

If child spy recruitment was going to figure prominently in this story, and I certainly understand the attraction of the idea, then it  should have been organized very differently.

Yes! My biggest problem with the Paige storyline this season (and I know I am not the first to point this out) is that if the goal is for her to be working in the State Department, one of the major intelligence agencies or another key position in government, then why are they putting all of that at risk by having her go on these missions? The risk of her blowing the entire operation, her cover, and her future is incredibly high. I get that they want to give her stuff to do, so here is how I would fix that.

I would not have the massive three year jump between season 5 and season 6. I would have done smaller time jumps between episodes and seasons. I would show Paige learning spy skills in a mall, because I love the idea of KGB agents training her in the ultimate capitalist setting. Show Elizabeth teaching her how to spot, avoid, and lose a tail, how to do a brush pass, and what not. Have Paige sit in the food court or on a bench and then have Elizabeth quiz her on details during the ride home. Bring in another character to help her with the verbal side of it (I just don't see Claudia doing this part and I'm not sure if Philip would). During a conversation, how do you get someone to reveal more than they planned, how do you read between the lines,  and other similiar skills/techniques. 

[Blakeston]

On 4/17/2018 at 7:48 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Her lack of feeling toward the country and culture she grew up in is kind of puzzling.   I guess she didn’t grow up watching Red Dawn and Top Gun* like the rest of us 80s kids, lol.  

The only way I can imagine Paige being willing to spy is if she's looking at it the way Annelise did.

Annelise thought Philip was a spy for Sweden, and she felt it would be fun and morally justifiable to help out the country she (presumably) descended from.

Paige is so naive that I can picture her thinking, "I'm not selling out America, I'm just helping out this awesome country my parents are from! The Soviets just need certain information so that their people can survive! It's not like I'm going to pass along any intelligence that could be used to hurt people."

Of course, the huge difference is the US wasn't in the midst of a cold war with Sweden. But Paige's cluelessness shouldn't be underestimated. She'll believe just about anything Elizabeth tells her about the cold war.

[Umbelina]

I think we are supposed to assume Elizabeth and Paige already did the basic training, in malls, on random streets, exactly the way we watched Elizabeth training Hans.  It's been 3 years of that, it was time for Paige to move on to operations.  After all, Paige is now only a 2-3 years younger than her mother was when she was shipped to an entirely new country to begin working.

Would it have been better to watch the Hans scenes play out this season only with Paige?  Honestly, not really.

I agree the time jump all at once is a pretty huge "cheat" for this particular show, not just in Paige's training, but in many things. 

IF they are showing us that in spite of three years of dedicated training, Paige still just sucks at spying?  Good job!  I think that may be exactly what they are telling us.

My only real problem with this show is last season.  I'm seeing how they are tying it in now though, so once the show is finished, I may come to appreciate last season after all, or at least some/most of it.

We know Oleg's dad.  We know why the Teacup couple is a mess and may bring them all down after all.  We know Oleg's journey and how he got to the place he is now with Philip.  We know why Philip has stopped spying.  We know that capitalism isn't the safe and secure place Philip hoped it would be.  We know that Elizabeth is more and more burning out, physically, emotionally, and in all ways, and that not having Philip to rely on has made spying more difficult for her.  Her words to Tuan "you can't do this alone" are echoing now.

It doesn't matter what job they plan for Paige, she still needs to be a real spy, able to operate in real spy situations, she does need this training, she does need to be on operations.  It's more about Elizabeth refusing to admit to herself that Paige simply is not good at this, she won't be able to do it.   They are showing us that, and for that?  I'm grateful.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It doesn't matter what job they plan for Paige, she still needs to be a real spy, able to operate in real spy situations, she does need this training, she does need to be on operations.  It's more about Elizabeth refusing to admit to herself that Paige simply is not good at this, she won't be able to do it.   They are showing us that, and for that?  I'm grateful.

Paige does not need to be on operations any more than Martha needed to be on operations. Paige is going to be Martha but on the other side. Paige is going to go into knowing who she is working for and what her job really is. In her day to day job, Martha was not involved in covert operations. Paige would need to know how some stuff about tails and dead drops but she is not going to be sitting in the car doing surveillance at 3 AM or any of the crazy dangerous missions.  

Edited April 19, 2018 by Sarah 103

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Paige does not need to be on operations any more than Martha needed to be on operations. Paige is going to be Martha but on the other side. Paige is going to go into knowing who she is working for and what her job really is. In her day to day job, Martha was not involved in covert operations. Paige would need to know how some stuff about tails and dead drops but she not going to be sitting in the car doing surveillance at 3 AM or any of the crazy dangerous missions.  

Martha and Paige have nothing in common.

Martha was a dupe, she knew nothing about the KGB until near the very end.

Paige will be KGB, she already is.  We've been over this before in this thread, but briefly, no matter what job she gets?  Here are some of the things she may and probably WOULD have to do.

• Be aware of her surroundings, is she being followed?
• Be able to follow someone else.
• Secretly take photos.
• Learn to use all kinds of spy equipment, including cameras.
• Know how to plant a bug, retrieve tapes.
• Know how to communicate safely with her handlers, meets, codes, radios with the numbers to decrypt, dead drops, meets with other KGB spies on joint operations.
• Know how to defend herself, kill if needed, should someone catch her at any of those things.
• Disguises, and using them.  She won't need one AT her job, but she may need them to do any/all of the above stuff I mentioned.
• Learn to spot and follow up on leads she may learn about at her job.  What's valuable, worth it, how can she learn more about it?
• Eventually she could also be expected to recruit agents of her own, in order to find more information about things she discovers at her job.
• Sex, and Elizabeth has been avoiding this one.  Say she's aware at something at her job, meets someone with information the USSR desperately needs.  Seducing that person in order to become close to him/her either in hopes of them telling her more in pillow talk, or being able to bug his belongings, or search his place, etc. etc. etc.

She's not going to sit on her ass at her job and just hope her bosses tell her everything about everything the USSR needs.

[Sarah 103]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Martha and Paige have nothing in common.

I meant the kind of job. Paige will not be doing dangerous covert missions like what we see Philip and Elizabeth doing. The goal for Paige is to have a job an intelligence agency, State Department or key government agency. 

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Here are some of the things she may and probably WOULD have to do.

• Be aware of her surroundings, is she being followed?
• Be able to follow someone else.
• Secretly take photos.
• Learn to use all kinds of spy equipment, including cameras.
• Know how to plant a bug, retrieve tapes.
• Know how to communicate safely with her handlers, meets, codes, radios with the numbers to decrypt, dead drops, meets with other KGB spies on joint operations

I agree with this part of list, but except for photos we have not seen her doing anything that would help her accomplish these tasks. In her office job, she would probably not be using a purse camera. She would use the excuse of staying late to catch up on paperwork and use a camera similiar to what we saw Elizabeth using in the house when photographing documents. 

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

• Know how to defend herself, kill if needed, should someone catch her at any of those things.

We already saw her working on self defense and the current missions they have her doing will not help her with this. Also, being skilled at lying would be just as important, so she can lie about where she was when the murder/attack took place. 

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

• Disguises, and using them.  She won't need one AT her job, but she may need them to do any/all of the above stuff I mentioned.
• Learn to spot and follow up on leads she may learn about at her job.  What's valuable, worth it, how can she learn more about it?

No she won't. They are not going to jeopardize an amazing asset/source by making her go on these type of missions. There will be other people who use disguises based on the information they get from Paige. I also think a great deal of follow-up may be done by other people as well. Paige might think something is happening at location X, so instead of having Paige risk her job and security clearance by breaking into location X, they will send a team (not Paige) to break into/gain access to location X. 

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

• Sex, and Elizabeth has been avoiding this one.  Say she's aware at something at her job, meets someone with information the USSR desperately needs.  Seducing that person in order to become close to him/her either in hopes of them telling her more in pillow talk, or being able to bug his belongings, or search his place, etc. etc. etc.

This is a distinct possibility. 

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She's not going to sit on her ass at her job and just hope her bosses tell her everything about everything the USSR needs.

The KGB understands there are going to be limits. If she tells the KGB her male boss picks up information in the shower after he goes to gym, they are not going to ask Paige to sneak into the men's shower-room. They are going to find a way to get male agent into the shower room at the right time to listen in. The KGB knows one person is not going to be able to tell them everything they need to know. 

[Sarah 103]

I posted this in another thread, but it works here too. This season, instead of having Paige do crazy spy missions with Elizabeth, they should have her working off campus in a place where people from the government eat or drink. She'll be working in a coffee shop, bar or restaurant which no one will think is a strange job for a college student. We would see her practice her listening/observation skills, as well as how to get information from a source. They would show us Paige learning how to communicate with handlers (Elizabeth,) how to do dead-drops, and other useful spy skills that she would use in her future job without the potential to damage her ability to get that job.  

Edited April 19, 2018 by Sarah 103

[Umbelina]

No, we've watched the KGB for a long time, not only does "Center" not understand much about Americans, when they need a job done, they don't care how dangerous it is, they want their KGB officers to do it.

It would be the same for Paige.

She needs to be trained in EVERYTHING a spy does, not on "in case" she needs it, but because she probably will.

Her job only gives her access.  That's it.  She will still have to get more information.  She will still have to COMMUNICATE that information to her handlers.  That could easily mean disguises.  She'd be an Officer in the KGB, knowing what might be valuable and finding out if it is would be part of her job.

That's why they want her placed.

With Martha, Philip determined all of that, he gave her the bug and told her how to plant it.  Paige needs to determine much of that for herself.  She will have a handler to help her, someone like Granny, just as Philip and Elizabeth did, also someone to give her assignments. 

So, for example, Paige is working at (whatever) the CIA, and a new guy comes in, her bosses go into the Vault with him, he leaves carrying several file, and her bosses are scrambling, or upset.  She can try to find out from the bosses, but if that fails, Granny might just then TELL her to "follow" so and so the next time he comes in, and see where a mark goes after work, for example.  That way, Paige could already be at "his" bar when he comes in, and they can strike up a friendship.

Paige needs all of these skills, for the "just in case" that will undoubtedly happen.  "Something always goes wrong."

She might also need disguises simply for dead drops or meets with her handlers.

Just working in a place doesn't mean you know everything that's going on.  Paige will be expected to find out what is going on.  For example, in the CIA or KGB or FBI, or hell, many workplaces, not everyone is "read into" an operation.  Only the top boss would know everything, and even then, as we've JUST seen, Arkady, the "top boss" of Division S?  Is being left out.  Probably very very few people knew of Stan's undercover mission, for another example.

Just being in a place where things happen doesn't mean you get to know all the important stuff.  All if does is perhaps give you a head's up that important stuff is happening.

She needs the kind of training she's getting.

Where the show is failing?  Telling us why on earth Paige would want to be KGB, and no, "pleasing mommy" doesn't cut it for me.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

Also, Philip knows it, the KGB damn sure knows it, I'm nearly positive Granny knows it, and on some level, even Elizabeth's denial isn't good enough for her to completely block out the fact that SHE knows it as well.

Paige will be a better placed Elizabeth, but on many levels?  She will still be Elizabeth, KGB Officer.

[SlovakPrincess]

I can see training Paige and maybe setting up “tests” for her.  I don’t get including her in real missions where she can screw up and possibly get caught.  Her whole value is having a verifiable American birth certificate that enables her to pass some level of security clearance and some keen understanding of the American mindset.  

I can’t believe the KGB was so rigid as to be totally impractical.   

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I can see training Paige and maybe setting up “tests” for her.  I don’t get including her in real missions where she can screw up and possibly get caught.  Her whole value is having a verifiable American birth certificate that enables her to pass some level of security clearance and some keen understanding of the American mindset.  

I can’t believe the KGB was so rigid as to be totally impractical.   

It's just like Hans, first all surveillance, then a real mission (which he fucked up.)

It's really the only way TO train someone, pretend only goes so far, your heart needs to be pumping, you need to be under stress.

That said, I do agree they would be making Paige do other things as well, making contacts, etc.  It may just be that she sucks so bad at even the simple stuff (keep a lookout) is something she screws up, that they are forced to keep it simple.

I wonder if Elizabeth's agents are reporting to Granny about Paige?

Edited April 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She needs to be trained in EVERYTHING a spy does, not on "in case" she needs it, but because she probably will.

Basically, they're already telegraphing that they're going to burn her out fast and toss her away. It does of course make more sense for her to be Martha with a better job and more skills just in case. But sticking her in wigs and having her recruit people and break into things and honeytrap while also being someone with security clearance is foolish, imo. Obviously this is still their plan because the showrunners have said so, and probably more likely because they want to show Paige doing these things--the show isn't covering Paige's life as a middle age CIA office drone. But all these things Elizabeth is training her for should be making it clear to her that Paige is going to be burned up fast. (Charles Deluth is a great example of someone who's been deep cover all this time and used his cover well like with Irina--he clearly had very little experience in the kind of smash and grab jobs he did with Philip that last time.)

Elizabeth herself is helping. For all her lines about Paige's future she's using her like the pawn she is, for whatever she (Elizabeth) needs at the moment. She *is* Martha, even though Elizabeth doesn't want to admit it. She's a naive American swallowing Elizabeth's lies. Martha eventually learned the truth too, but never the whole truth, and so far Paige isn't either.

And as I think I said on the other thread, both she and Paige act like this future career she's supposed to have barely matters. Paige has no interest in any of the jobs Elizabeth is reeling off. What she's interested in is the stuff Elizabeth does, including sleeping with whatever guy in a power tie has a government ID badge. Elizabeth imo doesn't *want* Paige to have much of an American identity, even if it's her "cover." She also seems barely able to think past the summit. Paige getting a job might as well be something that happens in the next century the way they talk about it, even though Paige is a sophomore in college and should already have a career path in mind that she's moving on.

Henry, I just realized, has exactly the opposite pov the little we see of him. His coach is already talking about him being captain of the team the next year--his senior year. He's taking an AP class--college credit (and taking it a year early by my school's schedule for calculus). The financial problems are bad because they're derailing his plans and his trajectory. It's like Oleg said, some people only look to the past. He looks to the future.

[Sarah 103]

On 4/19/2018 at 7:09 PM, sistermagpie said:

It does of course make more sense for her to be Martha with a better job and more skills just in case. But sticking her in wigs and having her recruit people and break into things and honeytrap while also being someone with security clearance is foolish, imo.

Thank you! This is the point I was trying to make. 

[Umbelina]

She will  need to know how to do all of that. 

Elizabeth is deluding herself that Paige will "just sit in an office."  Philip isn't.  Martha isn't.  Gabe wasn't. 

Martha "sat in an office" but she also stole files, photocopied things, and planted a bug and carried the tape.  She wasn't even a real spy.

Paige will end up doing, possibly to a lesser degree, but still, doing every single thing her mother has done, sooner or later.  It's a lifetime job.

Even in a job as well placed as Stan's?  He didn't know everything, and his co-spies didn't know everything he was doing either.  It just doesn't work that way, in business, or in secretive government jobs.  She may HEAR about something, but that something will still need investigating.  She may casually MEET a very well placed person, but that doesn't mean he is going to automatically spill his guts about whatever top secret thing Center wants to know.  Her job will give her leads, some of those, others may be able to follow up on, but some?  She will need to, because she's better placed.  Look how many hoops Stan had to go through to get access to ECHO, or the well placed guy Philip took over from his dead friend, who had to walk with special shoes through a place he didn't belong to pick up paint samples, which got him shot.

She's already wearing disguises for a reason, and there will be more reasons as time goes on.

Just like her mom, working as a nurse one minute, listening in on a conversation in disguise later that day.  A nurse, or secretary, or agent, whatever, only gets a piece of the pie, it's up to them to find out where the rest of the pie is, and deliver that to Center.

I'm really shocked that anyone is seriously believing that Paige will just "sit in an office somewhere."  I think I'm more shocked than Philip.

ETA

I don't think even Elizabeth truly believes that BS anymore.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

I also have wondered if Elizabeth and the spy-training isn't ruining Paige for any boring 9-5 deep embed deployment (for however long a duration) even if she gets to dress up and honeypot in her off-hours. 

How ya gonna keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paris???? 

Edited April 21, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

43 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think even Elizabeth truly believes that BS anymore.

Well, that's the thing. No matter what Elizabeth keeps saying everything everyone including Elizabeth is doing makes it clear that Paige is expected to be the same as every other drone American they have working. The one thing Elizabeth thinks makes her "special" is that she's allegedly going to have a job that's important enough that she can just have access to important information, but nobody's doing anything to even think about what that job might be or what she should be doing to get it. There's nothing special about "Julie" at all compared to any other American asset. They've recruited college students before. The only real thing worth giving special protection to for Paige is that her mother's one of the Illegals. Besides that there's nothing.

There's exactly two things about Paige that have always really stood out and are useful. One is her being a good follower, imprinting on someone and working hard to get their approval. That can obviously be used, as Oleg would say. They're using exactly that to get her on board with Elizabeth. The other thing is that she's very pretty. She's been attracting attention for her looks--wanted and unwanted--since season 1. She might as well get used to dating guys with government jobs because it's probably a quicker way to information than getting a job herself and there's no real reason for the KGB to give her a few decades to work her way up in ways there's no reason to assume she even would.

[Sarah 103]

I just came up with another way the Paige storyline could have been done better. What if instead of Claudia and Elizabeth training her, there was someone at or connected to the University she was reporting to. He or she would be assigning her training missions (working on dead drops, surveillance, getting information without the other person realizing it, and other basic skills) or testing her observation skills. It would make more sense than what we got. How can Paige get a top job in an important agency and make useful connections for the future if she is risking exposure going on missions with Elizabeth and spending far too much time away from campus. 

[Ellaria]

On 4/27/2018 at 3:24 PM, Sarah 103 said:

How can Paige get a top job in an important agency and make useful connections for the future if she is risking exposure going on missions with Elizabeth and spending far too much time away from campus. 

This  confuses me as well. Liz keeps saying that her future is a job at the State Dept (or similar). If that's the plan, why isn't she doing things to further it...like trying to be an intern rather than sleeping with one?

I understand that it makes for "better TV" to have Paige out on midnight missions with her mother. And you could probably make the argument that understanding the intricacies of surveillance could be useful if you were a spy in the State Dept. However, their failing - IMO - is not presenting a consistent and believable path forward for Paige Jennings, Junior Spy.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[SusanSunflower]

The very fundamental show premise of a new&better second born-in-the-USA generation of KGB operatives is severely undermined if the KGB confines Paige to literally following in Elizabeth's footsteps,doing the same assigned-task duties rather than using the birth certificate. 

Where did "braniac" always-studying Paige of the first years disappear to?  (You know, one who might shine in a prestige college "international relations" program and learn to love debating).

Edited April 28, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

Where did "braniac" always-studying Paige of the first years disappear to?  (You know, one who might shine in a prestige college "international relations" program and learn to love debating).

TBF, she was never really a brainiac. She was a goody-two shoes, which is slightly different. And important because if she was really going to have a stellar career, brainiac would have been better. It's her goody-two shoes-ness that made her so open to indoctrination, though. Henry was from the start shown as a kid who actually thought about stuff that happened and that he learned because he was genuinely curious. Paige's reports about school were always totally disinterested in the wider subject. Even with spying she's curious about stuff she could apply to her life.

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

This  confuses me as well. Liz keeps saying that her future is a job at the State Dept (or similar). If that's the plan, why isn't she doing things to further it...like trying to be an intern rather than sleeping with one?

I don't know if it's intentional--I worry it isn't. Because it really seems like every time she's featured the main thing you get about Paige is that she's completely the opposite of a spy. She doesn't care about why she's spying, what's going on in the world, the US vs. USSR. None of it. She literally just wants to do the spying stuff. Even if it's for no reason. Like if she meets a boy she wants to spy on him, even against orders. The KGB doesn't tell her how to run her life!

So of course she doesn't have the patience to put her head down and actually work on her cover. She doesn't even think about her cover when she sees a chance to lash out in a corner bar. She doesn't even think about her cover the next day except to roll her eyes and say she gets it.

[Ellaria]

Had to add another comment to this thread...

We are now three hours until the final moments of this show. It appears that the reason for the time jump was to get the story  line to the 1987 summit. That makes sense. However, they did little to advance the individual narratives despite having three years in off-screen time.

Paige is still naive and not particularly well trained.
Stan - up until last night - was still not putting two and two together.
Renee is still a cipher.

Elizabeth is tired and stressed.
Phil is depressed and lonely.

Judging by the lack of development of these character arcs, it could just as easily be three months.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[misstwpherecool]

Some ramblings, possible changes or topics to be added.

I like the idea of expanding/extending Larrick's storyline. A more credible foe or competent FBI/CIA putting pieces of the puzzle together. That still is my favorite season half of which is because he made progress. The story moved a lot from his perspective.

Have we ever seen Claudia taking orders from someone else? Is her back story vague on purpose or she is considered 'a' character.

I also can't believe a local cop/homicide detective wouldn't have raised alarms if he found dead bodies at a defense contractor/company doing secret work.

Maybe more F-bombs and graphic descriptions would've allowed for more story rather than show gratuitous sex scenes in the earlier seasons especially.

Some flashbacks of P & E earlier missions and/or recruitment of training of associates like Marylin. They showed some apprentices but were missing about 15 years of P&E's career.

More flashback background on Stan ie his early FBI career?

I was disappointed with them killing off Gadd, it's one thing for him to resign/be fired but they could've used him even if occasionally.

There are always could haves should haves I just would've liked to see the story move a little faster and with more detail. Some scenes although well done over did it and wound up being filler.

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Maybe more F-bombs and graphic descriptions would've allowed for more story rather than show gratuitous sex scenes in the earlier seasons especially.

 

Totally disagree about gratuitous sex scenes. The sex scenes were always integral to the plot and the themes of the show.

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Judging by the lack of development of these character arcs, it could just as easily be three months or one year. 

I was thinking of this last night and I really just still am not feeling the time jump. The first several seasons were intense character studies where you saw people changing their views incrementally. Then at the end of season 5 they just said, "Okay, so look at where these characters are right this second and then imagine them shot straight forward into the future to the logical extreme of these places."

So for years we had little curve balls and odd things that affected peoples' lives. Now it's just these choices that define them:

Elizabeth spying alone - crumbling robot 

Philip not spying - Business troubles, alienated from Elizabeth and Paige.

Paige punching a bag - Paige trying to be Elizabeth

Henry going to boarding school - Henry's boarding school guy

Stan gets married and wants to switch departments - Stan hearty domestic guy who has dinner parties

They all seem flatter and it just feels rushed. Plus there still seems like there's more emphasis on Elizabeth's story (which is often repetitive) than the Philip/Oleg mission. The few times they let Philip make a strong point it seems to electrify the audience but then it's back to losing losing losing from every side.

[hellmouse]

I love this show. I'm willing to accept all kinds of things in a TV show. I give The Americans a lot of leeway in general because it has been so very good. But there are a few things that still bug me, that I think they could have handled differently. 

 

1. Mischa & his mother Irina. What the hell. The whole thing. It's been discussed many times. His existence as Irina & Philip's son doesn't make sense. Irina's ability to defect and then get messages and documents to her son even after she's captured doesn't make sense. The amount of time spent following Mischa on his journey to the USA, only to have him NOT EVEN MEET PHLIP doesn't make sense. The scene with him and Gabriel is moving. The actor is likable. His journey is tense. But what a freaking waste of time. And then after he is sent back to Russia, he is united with Philip's heretofore unheard of BROTHER? That Philip doesn't even know about? That doesn't make sense. The whole story line of Mischa and Irina has so many plot holes that I'd be willing to overlook if it had led somewhere meaningful for Philip. But it didn't. It was a waste. If I could only pick one thing that bugs me about the show, it would be Mischa and Irina.

2. How time was used in Season 5 & the jump to season 6. Season 4 was a hard act to follow. There was probably no way to maintain that exquisite level of tension. So many familiar faces and deep rooted relationships were gone. But Season 5 went too far the other direction. The new characters in Kansas City were not interesting. The Morozovs and Tuan were interesting, but the wheat-watching was not interesting. Lying to Paige was not interesting. Meanwhile, Oleg has his own storyline, which was interesting, but was so disconnected from the rest of the show. Splitting the show in half and slowing each half down was a choice but it wasn't compelling. And it's especially frustrating now, watching Season 6 and thinking about what they could have done with Season 5 instead. I understand why they did the time jump, but coming after the super slow season 5, it feels like it cheats the audience out of seeing more of Philip & Elizabeth. They are why I love the show. What happened to them to cause them to drift so far apart? How did they adjust to Henry being out of the house? How did they adjust to not working together? How did Paige choose a college? And those are just small things. I just wish we'd seen what happened in those 3 years. It's also a missed opportunity to better develop the characters who needed it, like Paige & Renee. 

3. Paige becomes less believable as she becomes more important. In the first few seasons, she is a catalyst, and in that role, she is interesting. In the pilot, Elizabeth is adamant that the children never know what they do, while Philip thinks they should know the truth. By the end of Season 2, their roles are reversed. By end of Season 3, Paige has put the entire family at risk by telling Pastor Tim. Up to that point, she is a believable young teen. She gets anxious when her parents separate. She notices her mother's odd behavior - doing laundry in the middle of the night, taking them to the movies then dropping them off, with strange explanations - and she gets curious. She pokes around the house. Believable - teens do that. She looks for something to belong to (the church). Believable.  But then somewhere in Season 3/4, she becomes less believable. Her world narrows. Her personality contracts. She doesn't have any church friends - just the Pastor and his wife. Not believable IMO. She has no school friends and that is never explored in any meaningful way. She likes Matthew but then decides she probably has to be alone. She drops the church in favor of being a spy like her mother. She becomes a single-note character. She works as a catalyst for other characters but she is not developed enough to be interesting on her own. IMO she would have benefited form having at least one teenage friend and at least one teenage plot, something that let us see her as an individual without her parents or other adults. IDK - maybe the writers are pleased with Paige as a character but I feel like she's been a weak link since sometime in Season 3. 

4. Stan's circle of friends:

• Renee. She either is just Stan's new girlfriend/wife, or she has meaning to the larger spy story. They make us think the latter because Philip suspects it. Renee's behavior with Stan is similar to how Philip & Elizabeth act with their marks. But it's entirely possible that she is just a benign presence re: spying. If so, I wish they had made her seem more like a real person and less like someone playing a mark. Maybe even have less of her altogether. TBF, it's hard to judge without having seen the end. Maybe they will pull it off in a satisfactory way. 
• Amador. He is killed before the emotion of his death was earned, IMO. They have to create his relationship with Stan through flashbacks. It's not convincing, especially since it spurs Stan to murder Vlad as revenge. How long has Stan even worked with Amador? It just seems OTT. And I suspect if the writers could do it over, that they'd be able to fix this one fairly easily. 
• Gaad. His death was so bizarre and unexplained. It's the kind of thing that would make me think the producers had a problem with an actor and needed to get rid of him. But I don't think that was the case. I just wish it had had some greater repercussion. It would have made more sense if Stan wanted to murder someone as revenge for Gaad, rather than Amador. 

5. The house. I understand that they were stuck, having chosen that neighborhood and those houses for the pilot. But it just confuses people. It's a triplex, yet we never see any neighbors. The house exterior doesn't match the interior layout. I don't know if they could have fixed it with writing, but I wish they had been consistent in using CGI for the other garages. Or maybe come up with some explanation for the immediate-next-door neighbors we never see. 

[Umbelina]

@hellmouse

Well done, and I agree with all of it.

I let the house go, because this was not a network show and they probably had a very restrictive budget for a spec-show.  The appearing and disappearing extra garage doors were stupid though.  They should have probably adjusted the story a bit by mentioning traveling neighbors, or at least something easier, like the KGB purchased the two other triplex places and the cover is house speculators or something, purchased by some company for visiting big wigs, whatever. 

I completely believed that Mischa's mother didn't tell him she was pregnant, but that who Mischa side story never paid off, and it was an annoying waste.  The mother left all that stuff for her kid BEFORE she ran though.

Season 5 was a complete waste, a few little strings are being picked up now, but the only important one is Oleg.  It was just an unbelievably bad waste of a season, and certainly a waste of show time.  It also had an effect on how I watched the show, because it made me so pissed off, which led to nitpicking, which led to taking me out of what had been such a pleasurable hour each week.  They've got me back a bit?  But the trust and willingness to let certain things go?  Is gone.

[Ellaria]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So for years we had little curve balls and odd things that affected peoples' lives.

This sentence above made me realize something. This show has always been about subtleties, gray areas, hiding in plain site. It’s what made this show great and distinctive from many others. Broad strokes were not generally used in plot lines and character development. Some things moved slowly and deliberately and no one complained.

Then we hit S5 and got a bunch of rushed plot lines that did not have an organic conclusion - wheat, Mischa. A lot of subtlety was lost in favor of moving a few major plot lines forward, primarily Paige the Junior Spy. Now with the three year time jump, we lost the “little things.” Our characters arrived at destinations and we aren’t sure why because we didn’t see the journey. I’m not sure why they changed the formula for this show but it has been a disappointment.

 

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

3. Paige becomes less believable as she becomes more important. In the first few seasons, she is a catalyst, and in that role, she is interesting. In the pilot, Elizabeth is adamant that the children never know what they do, while Philip thinks they should know the truth. By the end of Season 2, their roles are reversed. By end of Season 3, Paige has put the entire family at risk by telling Pastor Tim. Up to that point, she is a believable young teen. She gets anxious when her parents separate. She notices her mother's odd behavior - doing laundry in the middle of the night, taking them to the movies then dropping them off, with strange explanations - and she gets curious. She pokes around the house. Believable - teens do that. She looks for something to belong to (the church). Believable.  But then somewhere in Season 3/4, she becomes less believable. Her world narrows. Her personality contracts. She doesn't have any church friends - just the Pastor and his wife. Not believable IMO. She has no school friends and that is never explored in any meaningful way. She likes Matthew but then decides she probably has to be alone. She drops the church in favor of being a spy like her mother. She becomes a single-note character. She works as a catalyst for other characters but she is not developed enough to be interesting on her own. IMO she would have benefited form having at least one teenage friend and at least one teenage plot, something that let us see her as an individual without her parents or other adults. IDK - maybe the writers are pleased with Paige as a character but I feel like she's been a weak link since sometime in Season 3. 

@hellmouse, this is probably the most apt description of the Problem with Paige that I have seen posted anywhere...especially the first line. They stopped making her a fully fleshed out character precisely when she needed to be.

Why can’t she have a friend? Why can’t she be in a study group? If the writers are trying to tell us that living the spy life makes it difficult to have relationships, then can you please show us those issues? Maybe they think that the awkward scenes with Matthew sufficed. She is afraid of being alone but has no friends. Why then give us the scene at happy hour? What they are saying and doing with this character is inconsistent.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I’m not sure why they changed the formula for this show but it has been a disappointment.

Honestly, it seems like it was because they wanted to end in Perstroika and had a perfectly good idea for the situation they wanted but then hadn't written to it. Plus it seems like it's almost too action-oriented a plot, or too much in the way of broad strokes. Elizabeth in the first season was slowly moving towards opening herself to her marriage. Now she's mostly in a holding pattern that either will or not shatter eventually, but I'm not seeing a clear arc. And Philip's just reacting to her so he, too, seems to just go back and forth.

Hellmouse, I couldn't agree with your post more. The whole Irina thing is something I actively started to resent. I can't help but feel that this is what we got instead of Philip's story. We got his contradictory girlfriend who dedicated her life to periodically messing with her high school boyfriend. I had to meet her son, her father. Philip's own family was just there to be Mischa's family. Meanwhile they never used to it to show anything about Philip except that he's the type of guy to feel guilty over a son he never knew about because he's really into family...except for the family he apparently has and has never mentioned or thought about once that we know about.
Irina continues to make no sense, including her being able to send (I thought they said she sent it but even if she didn't it's ridiculous her father was able to hide it under his bed) a Defection Kit to her son.

[hellmouse]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The whole Irina thing is something I actively started to resent. I can't help but feel that this is what we got instead of Philip's story. We got his contradictory girlfriend who dedicated her life to periodically messing with her high school boyfriend. I had to meet her son, her father. Philip's own family was just there to be Mischa's family. Meanwhile they never used to it to show anything about Philip except that he's the type of guy to feel guilty over a son he never knew about because he's really into family...except for the family he apparently has and has never mentioned or thought about once that we know about.
Irina continues to make no sense, including her being able to send (I thought they said she sent it but even if she didn't it's ridiculous her father was able to hide it under his bed) a Defection Kit to her son.

We know so little about Philip's past. I feel like I am very young Philip with a spoon scraping an almost empty bowl, hoping to get something. At this point I've accepted that we won't find out more, but it is such a missed opportunity. For us and for Elizabeth, IMO.

And Irina's whole story just makes me mad. I only got mad about it again because I was rewatching Season 1 and there she was, being ambiguous and wanting Philip to run away with her, and not even telling him whether Mischa was real or not. So annoying. I'm glad she was captured!

[Erin9]

14 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

This sentence above made me realize something. This show has always been about subtleties, gray areas, hiding in plain site. It’s what made this show great and distinctive from many others. Broad strokes were not generally used in plot lines and character development. Some things moved slowly and deliberately and no one complained.

Then we hit S5 and got a bunch of rushed plot lines that did not have an organic conclusion - wheat, Mischa. A lot of subtlety was lost in favor of moving a few major plot lines forward, primarily Paige the Junior Spy. Now with the three year time jump, we lost the “little things.” Our characters arrived at destinations and we aren’t sure why because we didn’t see the journey. I’m not sure why they changed the formula for this show but it has been a disappointment.

 

@hellmouse, this is probably the most apt description of the Problem with Paige that I have seen posted anywhere...especially the first line. They stopped making her a fully fleshed out character precisely when she needed to be.

Why can’t she have a friend? Why can’t she be in a study group? If the writers are trying to tell us that living the spy life makes it difficult to have relationships, then can you please show us those issues? Maybe they think that the awkward scenes with Matthew sufficed. She is afraid of being alone but has no friends. Why then give us the scene at happy hour? What they are saying and doing with this character is inconsistent.

I completely buy Paige saying she has no friends while going to happy hour with a group. It’s not the same. One of my best friends once told me: I have many acquaintances and few friends. She’s a pretty social person. But there’s a big difference between casually hanging out with people socially on a superficial level and being close with someone, confiding in them. I remember being surprised when she said it until I thought about what she meant. 

Paige may well have a study group. Wouldn’t necessarily mean she’s close friends with any of them. 

In some ways Paige was probably somewhat screwed in terms of friendships the second she got what she thought she wanted: the truth about her parents. After that- she could never be truly open with anyone. That may have been the beginning of her problems.

Paige seemed like a normal kid when we met her. Then she just had to know everything. She may never have been able to find a way to balance being open with people in every way, except the truth about her parents. It was all or nothing. IDK- just a thought. 

Thing is- spying is a lonely life. There’s a short list of people you can really talk to. But Paige just said she doesn’t want to be alone. Yet- she’s chosen this. At the same time- just knowing who her parents really are sets her apart in some ways. Maybe she thinks this is all that’s left for her. Make a difference and keep most people at a distance. 

Looks like she’s chosen a cause that gives her interactions with people over relationships just like her mom has. Paige is clearly hoping she’ll get lucky and find her own Philip. And that will keep her from being alone. And until then she has her mom, Claudia and to an extent her dad. 

[Erin9]

11 hours ago, hellmouse said:

We know so little about Philip's past. I feel like I am very young Philip with a spoon scraping an almost empty bowl, hoping to get something. At this point I've accepted that we won't find out more, but it is such a missed opportunity. For us and for Elizabeth, IMO.

And Irina's whole story just makes me mad. I only got mad about it again because I was rewatching Season 1 and there she was, being ambiguous and wanting Philip to run away with her, and not even telling him whether Mischa was real or not. So annoying. I'm glad she was captured!

I can’t believe the writers are leaving us with literal scraps about Philip’s background. If I had to pick ONE thing that irritates me above all else, this would be it. 

I know Philip is easy to understand and relate to, but that’s no excuse for telling us next to nothing. Especially when they put out information and do nothing with it- what happened to Philip’s mother? How did his father die? Come on- basics!! How is it we know more about Claudia and Oleg’s history than his? And how come no interviewer has asked the writers for an explanation of this? It is blatantly obvious that Philip’s life has not been prioritized for some reason. 

I don’t mind the Irina/Mischa angle. It added a little color to Philip. And it added a lot to the Afghanistan story knowing his son was there. 

But I HATED that we saw Mischa slowly make his way to the US and then never saw Philip. Huge letdown. I get that the writers liked showing it as a consequence of spying. And his scene with Gabriel was heartbreaking. But this is TV. Payoff matters. Meeting Philip’s brother doesn’t count. It didn’t add much. At all. 

Just typing that makes me worry about the end....sigh....the writers ideas versus mine are likely very different.....

Edited May 11, 2018 by Erin9

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Just typing that makes me worry about the end....sigh....the writers ideas versus mine are likely very different.....

Regarding the bolded statement...

I think this is true for the end of any show and its passionate fans. I have a hard time with endings. It sounds silly but I don't like saying good-bye to characters. As a result, I tend to be dissatisfied with finales. (Most of the time it is an unreasonable sentiment.)

Having said that, it doesn't make our "issues" with various story lines any less bothersome. Each of us probably has something different that is bothering us as we move towards the conclusion, whether it is Paige or Mischa or Stan. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, hellmouse said:

And Irina's whole story just makes me mad. I only got mad about it again because I was rewatching Season 1 and there she was, being ambiguous and wanting Philip to run away with her, and not even telling him whether Mischa was real or not. So annoying. I'm glad she was captured!

I know! Who the hell is this idiot? She dated him in high school and dumped him. Now she shows up and thinks he's gong to be into running away with her? Then the last moment she has with him he asks her if her son is real and she's...coy? WTF? The son she's about to bring trouble down on by running away? Not to mention send him to meet his father? And then it was like it never ended. Gabriel brought the kid up. Then the kid appears. Then we get his grandfather. Then Philip's brother is revealed to be only Mischa's uncle. And we're supposed to care.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

In some ways Paige was probably somewhat screwed in terms of friendships the second she got what she thought she wanted: the truth about her parents. After that- she could never be truly open with anyone. That may have been the beginning of her problems.

 

Yeah, I think with Paige it's always been a combination. She's apparently not somebody who feels like she can be friends with people if she can't tell them the whole truth--look at how she spilled everything to Pastor Tim right away. She had to have it explained to her that people hold things back about herself. But Paige is 100%. She wants to hand over everything--the whole bank account--to whatever person.

At the same time, I don't think Paige in college is that different from Paige in high school pre-reveal on the subject of friends. It seems like then too she had people she sometimes did things with but no special friends. One of the handy things about Henry's friend Doug is that it established that Henry had kids that were important to him even before Chris. Henry has always had friends with names who are doing stuff that concerns Henry and not his parents. The main time Paige mentioned a friend by name was to talk about how their dad turned out to be having an affair--so does that mean her dad is having an affair? 

Paige didn't know her parents' secret when she first joined the church group but she still made the exact same choice. She had friends who were presumably just in the church group without being special to her. (There's a guy who hugged her hello when she went to the church the same way she hugs Claudia.) She herself focused in on Pastor Tim. Then she was thrilled when her mom started coming to church with her. She talked about the mission of the church and what they were doing, never any particular thing that a friend there was doing.

I think that part of what Paige likes about spying is, as she's hinted, it's a way to get strong ties to people without having to deal with individual people and their flaws. People let her down. Causes bond her furiously to them in a higher way. Not that you can't also have a personal bond to people that way, but the cause is always the essential glue. That's almost why it's more painful to hear Paige talk about "meeting" someone like Philip, because Philip was assigned to Elizabeth.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Meeting Philip’s brother doesn’t count. It didn’t add much. At all. 

It was another one of those times where it dropped in an idea of Philip's past only to act like it didn't matter.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I know Philip is easy to understand and relate to, but that’s no excuse for telling us next to nothing. Especially when they put out information and do nothing with it-

And also in some ways Philip isn't as easy to understand as he seems. There's a reason that for years people assumed Philip was an orphan. It seemed to explain why he was so family-oriented and yet chose a life where he'd have been cut off from his family. (He was also clearly planning a stable life with Irina and a family before she broke up with him.) This is a central riddle about the guy and they've never answered it. Did he make an impulsive decision just because his dumb girlfriend dumped him? How could he have abandoned his family if he was raised to think protecting your family was the priority? Did he think he was helping them? Was he helping them? Why no tapes for him? 

Elizabeth might in some ways be more extreme but they *both* live extreme lives and Philip did it happily until around 1984. They even sent him to therapy to uncover other parts of himself...did none of that have to do with his family?

It also seems a bit unfair to the actor. I remember one time on the podcast they made a casual reference about how they'd thought about putting in flashbacks for Philip in this or that episode but then decided against it. Matthew Rhys was like, "What? Wait? WHAT WAS IN THEM?"

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Regarding the bolded statement...

I think this is true for the end of any show and its passionate fans. I have a hard time with endings. It sounds silly but I don't like saying good-bye to characters. As a result, I tend to be dissatisfied with finales. (Most of the time it is an unreasonable sentiment.)

Having said that, it doesn't make our "issues" with various story lines any less bothersome. Each of us probably has something different that is bothering us as we move towards the conclusion, whether it is Paige or Mischa or Stan. 

Yeah. And I’m not looking forward to saying good bye to these characters either. Especially with a wrap up that I know won’t be happy. I’m actually not too excited about Stan buying a clue because it means we’re almost at the end. I’m really curious about the end and kind of dreading it too. Lol 

Finales are such tricky things anyway. Lots of different hopes and expectations. And some of it is more sentimental than realistic. Kind of like Wonder Years. I was so disappointed that Kevin and Winnie didn’t wind up together, but from a realistic POV, not many people marry their high school sweetheart. 

I don’t object to Paige as much as others do, but I do see issues there that could have been handled better- or at least more directly.

[Carolyn Marie]

Great thread! The worst lost story of the time jump, to me, was--the accident at Chernobyl. I was a young adult when it happened and while CNN existed there was no internet yet, so I'd check the headlines in the newsstand near my school in NYC in the morning and afternoon. For a week there was this huge maybe-deadly plume of God knows what moving northwest across Europe while the USSR frantically and unconvincingly denied at first anything had happened, then that it was a little incident, then they'd had to evacuate Pripyat just as a "precaution", then the Geiger counters in Sweden went crazy...

The main point was that for the first time I could remember, the Soviet machine's ineptitude was obvious and glaring and was affecting the rest of the world. Everyone expected them to downplay or lie about other events like the rise of Solidarity, lost submarines, etc., but lots of dictatorships did back then. But this event could literally be seen from space, and the total disconnect was something even the biggest apologists couldn't ignore.

But this show did. And that's a real shame. I know they can't cover everything, but this story was so major and affected my admittedly-shallow understanding of the Soviets a great deal. They were vulnerable, they weren't the perfect modern country they tried to be, they cut corners, they couldn't let info from escaping anymore like that plume of radioactivity. "Chernobyl" became shorthand for disaster, hubris, cover-ups, the exploitation of less-powerful parts of "the country" like Ukraine, and was a topic of discussion for years. I can't believe Phillip wouldn't have it on his mind or Henry wouldn't have studied about it in school (fancy school like his would have TVs wheeled into a classroom for news like this), or...Oh, well.

Speaking of Poland, I grew up in NYC and while I'm mostly Irish and grew up in a mostly Latino/black boro, even I knew refugees from Communist countries whose stories were not exactly secret. My first roommate after college was shipped from Beijing to work in the fields while her father was denounced in the Cultural Revolution. My aunt's family were Hungarian and escaped in the 50s, sheltering illegal immigrants in their basement in Queens. Brooklyn was full of Polish and Balkan refugees, and I'm about Paige's age and we sure read about the adventures of the first Polish pope in parochial and public school. Movies like RED DAWN and ROCKY IV were out there, but so were more thoughtful ones with subtitles that we watched in college and showed in the old downtown art houses like the Thalia and Film Forum. Plenty of refuseniks in NY too. Also books, magazines, art exhibits, lectures...so much info from behind the Iron Curtain that someone with even a sliver of curiosity could find.

And I think that's what disappoints me the most about Paige's storyline. I saw a bit of myself in her although my parents are nothing like hers (I've seen baby pictures! Grandma's manifest from Ellis Island! We have tons of relatives!) but the search for meaning. But not showing her asking about Chernobyl, or Gorbachev's reforms, or even looking thoughtfully at a headline about the Pope in a newspaper--major disservice to her and the show. And you'd think Stan or Aderholt or Pastor Tim would mention one of these topics at some point, leaving P&E having to bite their tongues because even she coudn't explain it all away. Never mind Russian characters like Gabriel or Oleg reacting to Chernobyl. It was earthshaking literally and otherwise.