S04.E06: Pizza Rolls, Gender Roles, and Jazz Rolls

[princelina]

What drives me the most crazy about them is that they identify what she has to do and then run around like crazy trying to make it happen - like with the therapist appointments.  If she doesn't like therapy but needs letters to get the surgery - figure that out, Jazz!  If she could lose weight by J&G being on a diet, you'd see them sitting there eating undressed lettuce.

[Bridget]

On 2/8/2018 at 10:15 PM, princelina said:

So I did not watch the first 2 seasons - I tuned in around season 3 after seeing so many people on the I Am Cait thread talking about what a wonderful, mature spokesperson she was for the trans community vs. Caitlin - and I what I saw was a mom worried about her child's depression and possible suicide, while trying to force her to date boys and become a popular teenager.  So I didn't get it.  Although I would assume reaching a certain smarty-pants age (even if she didn't have actual puberty) brought a lot of this on.  It is not just Jazz being her age, but also her peers being that age that could lead to confusion and depression for her - kids that age want to be cool and aren't always welcoming to people who are different, even if they are polite and not mean.  And as we have seen, Jazz has a lot of social awkwardness that could turn off kids who want to be nice.  And of course she has been the sun around which her family revolves for a long time, which is not good for a child and can cause anxiety issues as well.  They just seem to have lots of problems to me, and I think the parents could benefit from therapy too.

Agree with your entire comment!

Jazz's struggles in social situations most likely also stem from having been the sun around which her family revolves. No one, regardless of their age or gender, wants to hang out with anyone who has been catered to during their  life for a host of reasons. More likely than not, people who have "been the sun in their family" don't know how to be adaptable to change or have learned to switch gears when they're not at home. It's as if they think it's perfectly OK to dominate conversations, always pick the movie or restaurant, not ask questions of others and make sure they're the center of attention at all times. 

I can't imagine Jazz having gone through life thus far, after years of soccer & almost 12 yrs of school (including Kindergarten), and not having her friends, parents of friends, coaches and teachers put her in check about any possible behavior issues that she otherwise gets away with at home. Perhaps when she was younger, she knew how to act in public and saved the "me me me" stuff for her family, which wouldn't shock me.

I think it was either last season or the 2nd to last season where she stopped hanging out with several of her friends because she felt left out and didn't know they had boyfriends, her feelings were hurt and she opted to not hang with them anymore. I remember thinking at the time that I really wish Jazz had talked to Ari about it so that Ari would've been able to give Jazz a heads up about the "teenage girls & boys & friends" struggle. It's not personal; it's hormones!

Had Jazz talked to her sister, who is allegedly the wind beneath Jazz's wings, much earlier about her struggling with food/friends, I wonder if Jazz might be in a better place, both physically and mentally. What better resource does she have than her own sister, who has already survived the teenage years?

When we saw Jazz reach out to Ari in NYC and essentially say "unless you agree with me, I'm not interested in your advice", I couldn't help but think that Jazz probably doesn't make an effort to even stay in touch with her own sister. If she can't be bothered to Skype or text with "her idol" (Jazz's words), it says a lot about Jazz and the amount of effort she is willing to put into relationships. That is so sad to me.

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, Bridget said:

Had Jazz talked to her sister, who is allegedly the wind beneath Jazz's wings, much earlier about her struggling with food/friends, I wonder if Jazz might be in a better place, both physically and mentally. What better resource does she have than her own sister, who has already survived the teenage years?

When we saw Jazz reach out to Ari in NYC and essentially say "unless you agree with me, I'm not interested in your advice", I couldn't help but think that Jazz probably doesn't make an effort to even stay in touch with her own sister. If she can't be bothered to Skype or text with "her idol" (Jazz's words), it says a lot about Jazz and the amount of effort she is willing to put into relationships. That is so sad to me.

Many folks have been and currently are ostracized/shunned/excluded or even bullied because of their other-ness.  It isn't anything new.  Their weight, appearance, shyness, autism spectrum, physical disabilities, socio-economic status, etc is fodder for every social interaction they encounter.  Therefore, surviving the teenage years isn't the same for everyone. What worked for Ari, who, for example didn't and doesn't have to struggle with being assigned male at birth, isn't going to work for Jazz just because they are both identifying as female gender.

I think that reducing one's childhood experience and/or adolescence to such simplistic terms, as if all teenage girls navigate the same path and the assumptions that go along with it is part of the disconnect and resulting angst that people have on both sides, whether seeking help/understanding or desiring to provide help/understanding.

I believe a good example is the weight issue Jazz is having.  I'm not sure but I think that it was mentioned she stopped participating on soccer teams because they were divided by gender and she wasn't allowed to compete on the girl's team.

Ari never had that problem...and for that matter, I'd be willing to bet all of her siblings participated in team sports during their teenage years since they weren't excluded by gender rules.

It has been extensively studied that physical exercise helps fight depression, anxiety, contributes to overall health as well as promotes weight loss.  Team sports also help youths form friendships, encourage socialization, fosters self motivation by giving opportunities to learn that effort = reward.

I'm no professional therapist or even an amateur one! Lol ! I'm merely a sociologist.  I don't think that Ari or her brothers would be or would have been helpful with regards to her being in a better place physically or mentally.  I imagine their "non-struggle" with gender and something as healthy/empowering as being allowed to participate in team sports while she watched from the sidelines probably caused some emotional distress for Jazz.

I could be wrong, I've often been wrong before, so no biggie. ?

[Bridget]

8 hours ago, kicotan said:

Many folks have been and currently are ostracized/shunned/excluded or even bullied because of their other-ness.  It isn't anything new.  Their weight, appearance, shyness, autism spectrum, physical disabilities, socio-economic status, etc is fodder for every social interaction they encounter.  Therefore, surviving the teenage years isn't the same for everyone. What worked for Ari, who, for example didn't and doesn't have to struggle with being assigned male at birth, isn't going to work for Jazz just because they are both identifying as female gender.

I think that reducing one's childhood experience and/or adolescence to such simplistic terms, as if all teenage girls navigate the same path and the assumptions that go along with it is part of the disconnect and resulting angst that people have on both sides, whether seeking help/understanding or desiring to provide help/understanding.

I believe a good example is the weight issue Jazz is having.  I'm not sure but I think that it was mentioned she stopped participating on soccer teams because they were divided by gender and she wasn't allowed to compete on the girl's team.

Ari never had that problem...and for that matter, I'd be willing to bet all of her siblings participated in team sports during their teenage years since they weren't excluded by gender rules.

It has been extensively studied that physical exercise helps fight depression, anxiety, contributes to overall health as well as promotes weight loss.  Team sports also help youths form friendships, encourage socialization, fosters self motivation by giving opportunities to learn that effort = reward.

I'm no professional therapist or even an amateur one! Lol ! I'm merely a sociologist.  I don't think that Ari or her brothers would be or would have been helpful with regards to her being in a better place physically or mentally.  I imagine their "non-struggle" with gender and something as healthy/empowering as being allowed to participate in team sports while she watched from the sidelines probably caused some emotional distress for Jazz.

I could be wrong, I've often been wrong before, so no biggie. ?

I totally agree with you and it makes a ton of sense to me. Your professional background threw out several points that I definitely agree with. It's got to be hard for her siblings to a degree to connect with Jazz because there are certain things they won't ever be able to relate to.

Being part of a sports team or even participating in school clubs/activities being a great source of confidence for young people. I see a vast spectrum of confidence and social skills, or lack thereof, every day at work. (I teach high school) I can usually tell who is active on campus and who isn't. The contrast is quite obvious and I wish there was a way to mandate participation in an extracurricular activity to give so many people a boost of confidence, success or feeling of accomplishment that they so desperately need. Unfortunately, the percentage of students who are active in anything (pun intended) is dwindling as more and more people can't put their phones away for a 30 minute meeting during lunch or going to some type of athletic practice after school. 

In fact, as I was writing the original post, I knew in the back of my mind that Ari's teen years were no doubt totally different than Jazz's experience, but I thought Ari would at least be able to explain some of the key social parts of "teenage girl life" to Jazz as the social facet impacts one's teenage experience. When Jazz felt "ditched" or "out of the loop of current news" because her friends had boyfriends, I would have thought that Jazz would have reached out to Ari to get her advice or vent. At least that's what I would do if I had an older sister and was dealing with "friend drama in high school."  Ari would then be able to explain it's normal for girls to ditch their friends when they get a bf/gf for as long as the relationship lasts, but it doesn't mean they are ditching the friendship entirely (as wrong as it is, it happens even with adults!). In the back of my mind, I keep remembering Jazz said (in earlier seasons) that she looked up to Ari and wanted to be just like her because she thought Ari was amazing. Perhaps that was a phase when she was young? Now they're not as close as they once were? I have no idea. 

I have no valid reason, other than them being sisters, but a part of me expects to see the two of them Skyping or Jazz mentioning to her parents "I was texting with Ari and....." Ari's probably busy with school and living her own life, but she strikes me as the type of person who would make time for her sister, no matter how "over it" she is about the "Jazz is the center of the universe" thing! :) 

I see Jeanette trying to insert herself into Jazz's life as both her mother and a friend. I could be wrong about the friend part, but when it's just the two of them chatting about  dates or social events, I feel like Jeanette is trying to get the scoop about what happened on the date/social gathering the way someone's teenage peer would ask them in an excited/gossipy way, such as "So....how did it go? Tell me everything!"

That's when I think Jazz should tell her mom (politely) to pump her breaks and either discuss those things in therapy (I know, I know) or reach out to Ari, depending on the topic. It's not Ari's job to counsel or parent Jazz, but I think we can all agree that Jeanette is way too involved in Jazz's life. Maybe there's some unresolved tension among the siblings that doesn't allow for Jazz to reach out to Ari for everyday "catching up with my sister" stuff. (I don't have a sister, so I don't even know if that's a thing!) If there was any tension at all,  I wouldn't blame any of her siblings at all. 

I believe it was Griffen who was visibly upset a few seasons ago about his mom missing his last football game because she had to do something with Jazz. I don't blame him at all. I also love the side eye Griffen gives when he's on camera and the word "vagina" is said or anything else having to do with Jazz. What I love is his authentic reaction that I think so many people would have if they were in his situation and there was a sibling who received a ton of constant attention from parents, no matter the reason(s) for the attention (health or other issues).

Edited February 14, 2018 by Bridget

[princelina]

Based on what we have seen I'm guessing that Ari doesn't agree with Jazz enough to make her a favored confidante.  Even if her experience was different from Jazz's, I agree with you that she's someone to talk to who's not your parents, especially since Jazz seemed to lose all of her friends except the one girl who's on the show.  And her new trans friends are good for sharing those common experiences, but the older sister could tell her the basic things like you were saying - "that's how girls/boys act, they get over it", etc.

As for Jeanette, her hunger with everything about Jazz socializing/dating is tinged with this type of "now you'll finally be homecoming queen and date the quarterback" kind of eagerness.  At least that's what I'm getting from her.  Just another anxiety inducing thing to deal with, whether consciously or subconsciously!

[Bridget]

28 minutes ago, princelina said:

Based on what we have seen I'm guessing that Ari doesn't agree with Jazz enough to make her a favored confidante.  Even if her experience was different from Jazz's, I agree with you that she's someone to talk to who's not your parents, especially since Jazz seemed to lose all of her friends except the one girl who's on the show.  And her new trans friends are good for sharing those common experiences, but the older sister could tell her the basic things like you were saying - "that's how girls/boys act, they get over it", etc.

As for Jeanette, her hunger with everything about Jazz socializing/dating is tinged with this type of "now you'll finally be homecoming queen and date the quarterback" kind of eagerness.  At least that's what I'm getting from her.  Just another anxiety inducing thing to deal with, whether consciously or subconsciously!

Such a good point! I never thought about it like that before.

[Concerned]

The car wash was faked because the camera, the car and Jazz were perfectly line up for a well-framed two shot. Also, even as an adult, if somebody rolled up to me and started arguing, I would turn and walk away. Did she think she was going to win an argument with a passer by? More likely it was a set up to allow her to deliver her standard talking points in a semi dramatic fashion.