The True Story of Franklin's Expedition

[Captanne]

The Inuit stories are contradictory according to Smith's account.

(SimoneS is your screen name Simone Samuelle?  I approve.)

 

Oops, top of page.  The conversation is about Crozier's length of survival past the rest of the crew (if he even survived as the last man.)

Edited May 24, 2018 by Captanne

[SimoneS]

8 hours ago, Captanne said:

 When Crozier went out to find the Northwest Passage with Franklin, though, his opinion of him plummeted.  All of this is in his letters home. He criticizes his leadership qualities, calls his ship a mess, and complains that he can't keep order and discipline -- that Franklin was better suited to being in the diplomatic service than the Discovery Service.  

The one thing that we haven't mentioned is that up until the late 19th century the aristocracy and wealthy merchants bought commissions for their sons to become officers in the British military. As a result, many of the officers were incompetent and/or unskilled for their ranks. So it isn't surprising Franklin whose rich merchant father bought his commission lacked the experience or skill for his command. In contrast, Crozier joined the Royal Navy as a volunteer, in other the words, at the lowest rank and worked his way up to Shipmate after passing his exam. Crozier earned his lieutenant commission for his outstanding service. He was an experience sailor and commander. which explains why he was so critical of Franklin.

[true north]

7 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The one thing that we haven't mentioned is that up until the late 19th century the aristocracy and wealthy merchants bought commissions for their sons to become officers in the British military. As a result, many of the officers were incompetent and/or unskilled for their ranks. So it isn't surprising Franklin whose rich merchant father bought his commission lacked the experience or skill for his command. In contrast, Crozier joined the Royal Navy as a volunteer, in other the words, at the lowest rank and worked his way up to Shipmate after passing his exam. Crozier earned his lieutenant commission for his outstanding service. He was an experience sailor and commander. which explains why he was so critical of Franklin.

To be fair, officers commissions were only sold for cavalry and infantry, i.e. where all that was required from new officers was looking good in a new uniform and not fall of a horse. Royal Navy commissions were never sold like that. However, there were so many navy officers and so few possibilities for promotion that without connections in the highest possible circles the possibility of making it to commander or captain was minimal.

Franklin also joined RN as a volunteer back when he was 14. He didn't do much captaining immediately prior to the expedition though, and was mostly appointed as the expedition leader because various important people felt sorry for him and didn't want him to be sad. How crazy is that? 

[Sighed I]

I started listening to the audiobook of the novel again and am up to Chapter 16. It's pretty good and densely detailed, but so far I like the show, and especially the characters, better than the novel.

Since the thread is marked for spoilers, I won't hide my comments here, but to be on the safe side I'll leave some spoiler space.

S

P
O

I

L

E

R

S

The biggest difference are the characters. They're all pretty racist, including Goodsir, who refers to the Inuit as savages; he and either Dr. Stanley (who's not a dick) or Dr. McDonald are the ones who dump Lady Silence's father down the fire hole and he speaks nonchalantly about it, which was a bit jarring. I realize their attitudes are reflective of the times, but I like the show's approach better. They are still men of their times on the show, but there's some variability in their points of view which I found realistic. Of course there would be men like Goodsir, who would be curious and fascinated by foreign cultures, for intellectual reasons at least. Of course there were men with extensive enough experience they would learn to communicate with the indigenous people and even have respect for their ability to survive such a harsh environment. Crozier doesn't speak the Netsilik tongue. Maybe the real Crozier wasn't one of those people and that's why the author characterized him in the way that he did (I've got to read his biography).

Crozier refers to Lady Silence/Silna as a witch, wench and a bitch. She (and another Native woman in one of Franklin's backstories) is rather sexualized, or at the very least objectified--both he and Franklin are, shall we say, distracted when they accidentally see her naked, Franklin especially. In the book, these two women are the only naked women he's ever seen. How the heck does a man who's been married twice and fathered a child never see either of his wives naked? I knew they were uptight about sex back then, but I didn't realize it was that bad. Sheesh. Franklin also comes off as a bit of a simpleton and is clearly incompetent. He's incompetent where it counts on the show as well, but I don't get the sense he's completely clueless so much as too arrogant to see beyond personal ambition.

Silna's tongue is already missing when we meet her, which I think was a misstep on the part of the author. It makes it extra difficult for any kind of character development, not only for her but for Crozier and the other men who interact with her. So far she seems to be more or less a prop or a plot device rather than a character in her own right. Of course this could change as I get further along, but right now it feels like a missed opportunity.

It reminds me a bit of the Lord of the Rings novels vs. the movies. I have been a fan of the books since I was a kid, but I prefer the characterization in the movies for several characters, notably Aragorn and Boromir. In the books, Boromir is much less sympathetic, so his sacrifice doesn't really mean all much to me. Aragorn comes off entitled and egotistical, so I never really feel like he's worthy of following beyond it being his "destiny". Bleh. You gotta earn my loyalty. ;)

Of course we wouldn't have the show if it weren't for the novel so I can't be too hard on it. It certainly provided a great framework for the series, so for that alone it has my respect. Granted, I'm not very far into the story yet, but from what I've heard so far, I feel the show's adaptation captured the essence of the novel and improved upon it.

I will say Tuunbaq is much more interesting and scary in the novel. I like how he not only blends into the environment, but is part of the landscape itself. The first thing you see are the eyes, only you're not sure what they are at first. By the time you figure out they are eyes, it's already too late.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the novel, though I am glad I saw the show first. One disadvantage to listening to it rather than reading it is the voices are so different. I can't help but associate the actors' voices with their respective characters, so hearing things like Fitzjames lisping and Crozier growling is kind of weird. I'd love to hear a version with the actors doing the voices, but the chances of that happening are virtually nil, I'm sure.

[Captanne]

In all of my reading, I actually started the book again -- and was delighted by the opening with Crozier on the ship.  But, then I got distracted by the real non-fiction accounts and...I'm a history nerd.  

Somewhere here, we were wondering about "The C the C the Open C" choice for an episode title and the bad spelling.  This was real and was in Peglar's journal discovered in 1859 by the M'Clintock expedition.  The journal is quite mysterious and a lot of it is written backward with the expected ubiquitous and random capitalization.  "The C" is a poem he wrote and it's only another sentence -- something about how they want to find it and how open it is.

 

Of the 39 (!) trips to find the Franklin Expedition, the first two or three were basically failures.  Then they headed to King William Island and down the west side to the south.  That's when they started finding the camps and the graves.  Some of the Inuit by then (imagine, 1859 was over ten years later) had scavenged the sites as well so spoons, books, forks, and other things ended up in Inuit groups as well.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Captanne

[true north]

21 hours ago, Captanne said:

Just posted this over in the Rewatch thread:  Just finished the biography of Crozier by Smith.  He was an amazing but very moody man.  Prone to depression.  His friendship with young Ross spanned decades but was forged in a 4 year trip on Erebus and Terror to the Antarctic.  While those two were rambling around the southern seas, they met up with Franklin as governor of Tasmania.  They had a wonderful time.  (It's where he fell in love with Franklin's niece, Sophy.  She, by the way, was a flirt but not with Crozier.  She rebuffed him.  Also, for what it's worth, she died having never married or even left Lady Franklin's side.)  When Crozier went out to find the Northwest Passage with Franklin, though, his opinion of him plummeted.  All of this is in his letters home. He criticizes his leadership qualities, calls his ship a mess, and complains that he can't keep order and discipline -- that Franklin was better suited to being in the diplomatic service than the Discovery Service.  

The most interesting thing I got from Smith's biography, as well as from Fleming's Barrow's Boys is that Crozier actually had a chance to lead the expedition, if he was so inclined. The choice was between him and Franklin, basically, and everyone, even James Clark Ross, supported Franklin. I guess Ross and Crozier's previous expedition to the Antarctic played its part in that, because otherwise it's hard to explain why Ross preferred Franklin. He only knew him as a civil servant, and not even a particularly good one. 

[AZChristian]

I just started reading Dan Simmons' book yesterday.  I think this quote from Moby Dick in the preface puts Tuunbaq into perspective (emphasis added):

"This elusive quality it is, which causes the thought of whiteness, when divorced from more kindly associations, and coupled with any object terrible in itself, to heighten that terror to the furthest bounds.  Witness the white bear of the poles, and the white shark of the tropics; what but their smooth flaky whiteness makes them the transcendent horrors they are?  That ghastly whiteness it is which imparts such an abhorrent mildness, even more loathesome than terrific, to the dumb gloating of their aspect.  So that not the fierce-fanged tiger in his hearaldic coat can so stagger courage as the white-shrouded bear or shark."

I think this description makes it easier to understand the mystical nature or appearance of Tuunbaq.  And the very lack of color surrounding it made it all the more terrifying.

[true north]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

I just started reading Dan Simmons' book yesterday.  I think this quote from Moby Dick in the preface puts Tuunbaq into perspective (emphasis added):

"This elusive quality it is, which causes the thought of whiteness, when divorced from more kindly associations, and coupled with any object terrible in itself, to heighten that terror to the furthest bounds.  Witness the white bear of the poles, and the white shark of the tropics; what but their smooth flaky whiteness makes them the transcendent horrors they are?  That ghastly whiteness it is which imparts such an abhorrent mildness, even more loathesome than terrific, to the dumb gloating of their aspect.  So that not the fierce-fanged tiger in his hearaldic coat can so stagger courage as the white-shrouded bear or shark."

I think this description makes it easier to understand the mystical nature or appearance of Tuunbaq.  And the very lack of color surrounding it made it all the more terrifying.

This is what bugged me most about show!Tuunbaq. He was sort of dirty gray instead of white, and that really took a lot away from his level of creepiness. 

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, true north said:

This is what bugged me most about show!Tuunbaq. He was sort of dirty gray instead of white, and that really took a lot away from his level of creepiness. 

I think during the first couple of times he was there, he was less visible to us and the men on the ship.  Maybe the gray was so that we could finally - eventually - see him.  White on white would be tricky with the cameras.  

[Captanne]

Personally, I would have preferred the Tuunbaq had been kept mysterious.  They had a choice and went with making her very literal.  

[Christi]

Just curious, why are we discussing Tuunbaq in the "True Story" thread? 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Christi

[AZChristian]

4 hours ago, Christi said:

Just curious, why are we discussing Tuunbaq in the "True Story" thread? 

 The subheading of this thread is "Book Talk." So I put my comments here. 

[Captanne]

Irony:

https://www.adventure-life.com/arctic/cruises/12081/pathways-to-franklin

https://www.adventure-life.com/arctic/cruises/11954/northwest-passage-in-the-footsteps-of-franklin

[Fellaway]

8 hours ago, Captanne said:

Irony:

https://www.adventure-life.com/arctic/cruises/12081/pathways-to-franklin

https://www.adventure-life.com/arctic/cruises/11954/northwest-passage-in-the-footsteps-of-franklin

Ay caramba!  Of course, it would be interesting - I would like to see narwhals. - and no more macabre than any other historic site where bad things went down.  But, having just finished watching The Terror...  Too soon, arctic cruise people, too soon!

[Captanne]

And so affordable!

[proserpina65]

On ‎06‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:38 AM, Captanne said:

Irony:

https://www.adventure-life.com/arctic/cruises/12081/pathways-to-franklin

https://www.adventure-life.com/arctic/cruises/11954/northwest-passage-in-the-footsteps-of-franklin

What, no Starvation Cove?

[Captanne]

The way I found those sites was that I had been looking for a website about the cruise ship going west-to-east through the Northwest Passage just a few years ago.  It was all over the news because it's fairly certain the passage has been fully opened to non-ice-breaking ships because of the changing climate.  I haven't found the site yet -- it's sure to be out there -- but will post it when I do.  TBH, I haven't looked again.  Once I found those cruises, I was so amused, I came right here to post them.

 

ETA:  Here it is:  The Princess in 2016  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/08/16/a-luxury-cruise-ship-sets-sail-for-the-arctic-thanks-to-climate-change/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.32c5ae1f1092

Edited June 5, 2018 by Captanne

[lidarose9]

Just want to add, re comments about random spelling and capitalization. The English language was not standardized until the mid-19th century. There literally was no correct or incorrect spelling until Webster's dictionary, which was first published in 1828 but didn't sell well and wasn't widely used until the 1840s. It wasn't adopted as any kind of authority for a couple more decades. That practice of capitalizing nouns was a fad in the 17th and 18th centuries, which later died out. (Some think it originated with English's German roots, but there is no evidence for this.) 

Those of you who have read non-fiction accounts of the rescuers and/or modern investigations, would you please share the names and authors of books you recommend? There are so many, and I want to read the ones that are the most inclusive and up-to-date. Thank you! 

[proserpina65]

lidarose9 - The best account I've read which includes the expedition, the 19th century rescue/recovery attempts, and the modern efforts to discover what happened is Ice Ghosts by Paul Watson.  It is also the most up-to-date, and includes the actual discovery of Erebus and Terror in the last  half-decade.

[Addlepated]

On 4/5/2018 at 6:21 AM, Captanne said:

Since I can hear or understand much of the dialogue (CC isn't working), I am noticing other things -- one of which is the rosy cheeks seems to be increasing. Now, that can be an over abundance of rouge used by the makeup people to show "cold" but I think they are trying to indicate some sort of flushing of the faces that isn't quite healthy.  It's not even very subtle.  

I thought it was windburn/sunburn.  Most of the men with very rosy cheeks have white circles around their eyes where sun goggles would have gone.

[Captanne]

Lidarose9, I meant to put a list here for you of what I've read on Friday but life got in the way!  So, before it does again, I'll post here now that that is my intent.  I'll try to do it today.  Agree about Ice Ghosts.  Also, a must read is Beattie and Geiger's Frozen in Time (1987).  Smith's Crozier biography is great and easy to read.  I'm now reading Battersby's Fitzjames.  Am getting through a wonderful book on the relics.  And have an Inuit interview book by Woodman.  The be-all-and-end-all of early analysis seems to be Cyriax' book written in 1939 and republished in 1997.  I have a copy just shipped (ha!) to me from Canada.  It wasn't cheap but completes my library.

[lidarose9]

On 6/11/2018 at 3:53 AM, Captanne said:

Lidarose9, I meant to put a list here for you of what I've read on Friday but life got in the way!  So, before it does again, I'll post here now that that is my intent.  I'll try to do it today.  Agree about Ice Ghosts.  Also, a must read is Beattie and Geiger's Frozen in Time (1987).  Smith's Crozier biography is great and easy to read.  I'm now reading Battersby's Fitzjames.  Am getting through a wonderful book on the relics.  And have an Inuit interview book by Woodman.  The be-all-and-end-all of early analysis seems to be Cyriax' book written in 1939 and republished in 1997.  I have a copy just shipped (ha!) to me from Canada.  It wasn't cheap but completes my library.

Thank you! 

[Kel Varnsen]

Just started watching this show so there might be an obvious answer to this question. But it seems that the Expedition went around the north side of Baffin Island. Couldn't they have gone along the southern side? Wouldn't that have kept them in more southern water, meaning less ice? Also wouldn't not going so far north mean a shorter trip? What am I missing?

[Kel Varnsen]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:04 PM, true north said:

But no matter how experienced an explorer someone is, there isn't much to do when the men are dying of a combination of exposure, starvation, scurvy and possible lead poisoning.

I'm not any kind of doctor but I wonder if lack of sunlight for a good part of the year, which causes vitamin d deficiency also contributed to it. Looked it up and that leads to general weakness and brittle bones. So on top of scurvy, exposure to cold, starvation/malnutrition,  and maybe lead poisoning you also have lack of vitamin D. And on top of that you are also probably doing very physically strenuous labour.

On 5/25/2018 at 7:19 AM, Captanne said:

Of the 39 (!) trips to find the Franklin Expedition, the first two or three were basically failures.  Then they headed to King William Island and down the west side to the south.  That's when they started finding the camps and the graves.  Some of the Inuit by then (imagine, 1859 was over ten years later) had scavenged the sites as well so spoons, books, forks, and other things ended up in Inuit groups as well.

Reading up on it what I find interesting is how much of the Arctic was explored and mapped because of those rescue missions. Even the HMS Resolute, which ended up being turned into thd US president's desk was a Franklin rescue mission.

On 6/5/2018 at 6:54 AM, Captanne said:

The way I found those sites was that I had been looking for a website about the cruise ship going west-to-east through the Northwest Passage just a few years ago.  It was all over the news because it's fairly certain the passage has been fully opened to non-ice-breaking ships because of the changing climate.  I haven't found the site yet -- it's sure to be out there -- but will post it when I do.  TBH, I haven't looked again.  Once I found those cruises, I was so amused, I came right here to post them.

ETA:  Here it is:  The Princess in 2016  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/08/16/a-luxury-cruise-ship-sets-sail-for-the-arctic-thanks-to-climate-change/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.32c5ae1f1092

While one of those trips would be cool I would also be a little reluctant to take one, even if I had the cash. Mostly because Canada has pretty much no Navy/Coast Guard presence in the Arctic. So if anything major were to happen it would be small boats and helicopters coming to the rescue. Also I have been to Cambridge Bay and there really isn't much there.

[Captanne]

For me, taking the NW Passage cruise would merely be an "Everest" moment -- I'd do it for the history and because I can.  ("Everest" moment being: "Why climb a mountain?"  "Because it's there.")

In other words, I'm certainly not doing it for the night life.  

(I was in the military for 21 years.  Been all over the world.  Don't need opera houses and the Copa Cabana.  I want "new" and "meaningful".)

Edited March 7, 2019 by Captanne

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, Captanne said:

For me, taking the NW Passage cruise would merely be an "Everest" moment -- I'd do it for the history and because I can.  ("Everest" moment being: "Why climb a mountain?"  "Because it's there.")

I should have probably reworded that. It would be an awesomr trip. But you really are isolated up there. If something happens to the ship or there is some major outbreak you wouldn't be as stuck as the Terror and Erebus were, but there are not a lot of people and services up there.

That said I have had the opportunity to visit the Canadian Arctic 4 times for work (well technically i only made it above the arctic circle 3 times but the other time was still Baffin Island) and it is amazing to the point where it is like you are on another planet. It is impressive how well the show matched the terrain without actually shooting on location. It is too bad it costs so much to travel up there because it really is memorable  and something more people should see (it was like 3 grand for a 3 hour flight to Iqaluit).

I have also experienced the 24 hours of sunlight and 24 hours no sun and both are unreal experiences. It was amazing how dark it got in winter at like 4 pm. 

[Fellaway]

Came across this article today regarding the ship The Terror:

Arctic Shipwreck Frozen in Time Astounds Archaeologists

Quote

What they saw astonished and delighted them; dinner plates and glasses still on shelves, beds and desks in order, scientific instruments in their cases-and hints that journals, charts, and perhaps even early photographs may be preserved under drifts of sediment that cover much of the interior....

The only area below decks the team was unable to access was the captain's sleeping quarters.  Apparently the last person to leave closed the door.  "Intriguingly, it was the only closed door on the ship..."

[Fellaway]

Here is another article that includes video footage from the ship:

Divers Get an Eerie First Look Inside the Arctic Wreck of the HMS Terror

Edited August 29, 2019 by Fellaway

[raven]

@Fellaway thanks for posting.  Crozier's desk!  Possibility of developing the photo plates!  Really exciting to think there might be answers, though it would take a few years.

The video was surprisingly beautiful.  I was getting cold just watching the divers though.

[Fellaway]

On 8/29/2019 at 9:54 PM, raven said:

@Fellaway thanks for posting.  Crozier's desk!  Possibility of developing the photo plates!  Really exciting to think there might be answers, though it would take a few years.

The video was surprisingly beautiful.  I was getting cold just watching the divers though.

Happy to.  ☺️  Gotta admit I got excited, too, at the idea that the photo plates might be able to be developed.  Amazing!  I could never do what those divers do, though.  Being immersed in the ocean is, like, my worst fear. 

[Captanne]

I have read just about every book available on the Franklin Expedition and just finished Michael Palin's "Erebus".  After Monty Python, Palin carved a career out for himself as a travel writer (and videographer).  This book, while short, took me longer than any to read because I savoured it.  He writes perfectly well -- but it's his way of telling the story combining so many of the books into one, easy narrative that makes it a pleasure to meander through.  I really enjoyed it and highly recommend it.  Bear in mind, please, it's a biography of Erebus and covers her Antarctic and the Franklin Expedition entirely.  Less so, the earlier Arctic expedition with Ross and Crozier.  Perhaps he'll write his next book on blessed little Terror?

Spoiler

Also, bear in mind, there is a gentle allusion to some sort of deep relationship between Ross and Crozier that surprised me.  He bases his suspicion on letters Crozier wrote to Ross while on the Franklin Expedition.

[Fellaway]

Shipwreck Yields Artifacts of Missing Seafarers in Canada's Arctic with an accompanying vid:

 

[paramitch]

That video into THE TERROR, allowing us to go into Crozier's very quarters -- to see his actual desk, etc.! absolutely floored me. So incredibly cool.

Meanwhile, I've so enjoyed all the conversations on this amazing show (and book) in this section. I wanted to alert you that I started a new THE TERROR Book vs. Show Discussion topic here in case it's of interest (no pressure) to those who want to keep talking about the show versus the real-life situation.

Meanwhile, I really enjoyed this guy's historical analysis on YouTube:

History Buffs: "The Terror"

Like others, I've also been really fascinated to learn more about the real-life mission, and especially the discoveries of both TERROR and EREBUS over the past 4-5 years.

Some of the real-life articles I enjoyed included:

https://www.newsweek.com/terror-true-story-amc-real-history-series-horror-monster-862376

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/04/franklin-expedition-ship-watson-ice-ghosts/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/second-ship-sir-john-franklins-19th-century-expedition-found-180960437/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/sir-john-franklins-doomed-ship-just-turned-arctic-after-170-years-180952658/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/heres-how-amc-producers-worked-inuit-fictionalized-franklin-expedition-show-180968643/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/archaeologists-get-eerie-first-look-inside-arctic-shipwreck-franklin-hms-terror-180973011/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/divers-recover-more-than-350-artifacts-from-hms-erebus-shipwreck-180974251/

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/537632/facts-about-the-franklin-expedition-the-terror

Also, @Captanne, I was so excited to learn of Michael Palin's book EREBUS -- he's a favorite writer of mine, and his transformation over the past few decades into an adventurer and travel writer has fascinated me. I love every single one of his video travel documentaries, and it's frustrating that so many are out of print. I also highly recommend some of his lesser-known travelogues like HIMALAYA, as well as his published diaries, which take him from youth to old age, decade by decade, and which are all beautifully and thoughtfully written.

I already bought EREBUS, and am looking forward to reading it after I finish THE TERROR (novel).

[Kel Varnsen]

News story about how a DNA match identified the remains of one of the Erebus crew members. I wonder if we will start seeing more of this. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/erebus-terror-delay-research-john-gregory-identification-1.6140667

[Fellaway]

On tomorrow, 8/24, at 10PM on NatGeo:

Quote

Explorer: Lost in the Arctic

"Explorer Mark Synnott mulled the unthinkable while trying to solve one of history’s greatest seafaring mysteries in Explorer: Lost in the Arctic: what happened to the 129 men of Sir John Franklin’s 1845 expedition whose ships got trapped in the Arctic ice while the sailors were trying to be the first to navigate the Northwest Passage."

 

[AstridM]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:17 PM, Fellaway said:

On tomorrow, 8/24, at 10PM on NatGeo:

 

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don’t have any way to access this show until it’s available for free somewhere 🥲.

[Fellaway]

8 hours ago, AstridM said:

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don’t have any way to access this show until it’s available for free somewhere 🥲.

Oh, gosh! If you have Disney+ or Hulu, it's available there. I'll be on the lookout for other places. Hopefully, it will turn up other places soon.

I DVRed it, but haven't had a chance to watch yet. I've been thinking of doing a rewatch of Season 1 lately, and this will really get me in the mood.