S03.E05: Welcome Back, Charlotte Richards

[Jacks-Son]

I liked this episode very much. It was a return to the "Lucifer" we all know and love. Lucifer himself, didn't irritate me as much, and Chloe & Ella were their charming selves. Trixie, who has suddenly began to use swear words was pretty darn cute with her "alternative swear words". (Thanks Luci) No Pierce, which was a welcome respite but also no Amenadude, Maze, nor Linda, which was a negative.

I loved this Charlotte Richards and am glad she's back. Now, what I would have clapped wildly for (little man standing on the chair) is Charlotte being introduced to the family like Linda. So far, Linda (of the main characters) is the only one that knows about Lucifer, Amenadude, and Maze, it would have been great for Lucifer and Linda to break the news to Charlotte that Mum had possessed her body. It would have brought solace to her and given her hope that the Celestial Goddess had chosen to occupy her. Charlotte DESERVES to know what happened to her. I think this whole "from now on I want to do good" was in artfully done. They should have explained to her that the Goddess had been in Hell and was banished by God, but ultimately redeemed herself. IMHO, it was a missed opportunity by the writers.

Otherwise, it was a fun episode. 

[CheshireCat]

1 minute ago, Jacks-Son said:

, it would have been great for Lucifer and Linda to break the news to Charlotte that Mum had possessed her body.

Could still happen.

 

1 minute ago, Jacks-Son said:

It would have brought solace to her and given her hope that the Celestial Goddess had chosen to occupy her.

Or it would have majorly freaked her out. That's probably what it would have done to me.

Also, did Mom chose or was Charlotte just convenient?

 

1 minute ago, Jacks-Son said:

Charlotte DESERVES to know what happened to her. I think this whole "from now on I want to do good" was in artfully done. They should have explained to her that the Goddess had been in Hell and was banished by God, but ultimately redeemed herself. IMHO, it was a missed opportunity by the writers. 

Did Mom redeem herself? Redemption would have ended in being re-accepted into Heaven, wouldn't it? I don't think she truly redeemed herself, Lucifer just found a solution which works for everyone. Or seems to work for everyone at the moment.

[Jacks-Son]

1 minute ago, CheshireCat said:

Or it would have majorly freaked her out. That's probably what it would have done to me.

Also, did Mom chose or was Charlotte just convenient?

As I recall, Mum went through several bodies that, unfortunately, didn't work out. When she finally inhabited Charlotte Richards she was pleased with her choice. I say it was part convenience and part choice. She could have left the body if she was unsatisfied with "it".

7 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

Did Mom redeem herself? Redemption would have ended in being re-accepted into Heaven, wouldn't it? I don't think she truly redeemed herself, Lucifer just found a solution which works for everyone. Or seems to work for everyone at the moment.

In some way, she did redeem herself. She learned that these human play things DID have value. She even came to admire some of them and in Dan's case, she learned to "like him a lot". Lucifer COULD have destroyed her with the dagger, but like Amenadude, they realized that there was some good in Mum and she did love her kids and her husband.

[Gigi43]

7 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

 

I loved this Charlotte Richards and am glad she's back. Now, what I would have clapped wildly for (little man standing on the chair) is Charlotte being introduced to the family like Linda. So far, Linda (of the main characters) is the only one that knows about Lucifer, Amenadude, and Maze, it would have been great for Lucifer and Linda to break the news to Charlotte that Mum had possessed her body. It would have brought solace to her and given her hope that the Celestial Goddess had chosen to occupy her. Charlotte DESERVES to know what happened to her. I think this whole "from now on I want to do good" was in artfully done. They should have explained to her that the Goddess had been in Hell and was banished by God, but ultimately redeemed herself. IMHO, it was a missed opportunity by the writers.

Otherwise, it was a fun episode. 

 

Mom tortured Linda and left her for dead. If not for Amenadiel murdering Linda would have been part of her swan song. Plus she went to a place full  of people not caring they could be hurt possibly be hurt by her light (and she was banking on it to draw Lucifer there.) She wouldn't kill her sons but there are a lot of terrible people who don't  hurt their own families. Taking her own universe was realizing Lucifer wouldn't let her achieve  her plans, not self sacrifice.  I think the real Charlotte  would be,  and should be, horrified to know what was around her family and it could be too much right now. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

I liked this episode very much. It was a return to the "Lucifer" we all know and love. Lucifer himself, didn't irritate me as much, and Chloe & Ella were their charming selves. Trixie, who has suddenly began to use swear words was pretty darn cute with her "alternative swear words". (Thanks Luci) No Pierce, which was a welcome respite but also no Amenadude, Maze, nor Linda, which was a negative.

I loved this Charlotte Richards and am glad she's back. Now, what I would have clapped wildly for (little man standing on the chair) is Charlotte being introduced to the family like Linda. So far, Linda (of the main characters) is the only one that knows about Lucifer, Amenadude, and Maze, it would have been great for Lucifer and Linda to break the news to Charlotte that Mum had possessed her body. It would have brought solace to her and given her hope that the Celestial Goddess had chosen to occupy her. Charlotte DESERVES to know what happened to her. I think this whole "from now on I want to do good" was in artfully done. They should have explained to her that the Goddess had been in Hell and was banished by God, but ultimately redeemed herself. IMHO, it was a missed opportunity by the writers.

Otherwise, it was a fun episode. 

It's a big cast, so I'm okay with some characters (and actors) getting a bit of time off while others take the stage.  I was relieved to see Scarlett Estevez back as Trixie in an actual filmed for the 3rd season episode.

For my part I think it's too soon to bring Charlotte "into the family."  For one thing, she's in a pretty fragile state, psychologically and emotionally.  There's a decent chance that she'd disbelieve them if they told her, or worse, believe them and then blame them for what happened to her, perhaps going after people close to Lucifer to try to force him to cancel any potential return trips to Hell.  Another thing to consider is that Charlotte's determination to "do good" comes very much from a place of fear, guilt and selfishness.  It's like if I confronted you with a flame-thrower and told you to hand over your money or I'd burn you alive.  You don't really want to give me your money, but you'd rather do that than get burned alive.

We've actually already seen the folly of Charlotte's methodology with the professor from last season.  He was eager, even desperate to give Lucifer the antidote if it would get him out of Hell.  It might have worked, if he'd genuinely repented what he'd done to Chloe and the others and gave Lucifer the formula to help make things right.  Since he only did it to try to save himself, he stayed in Hell.  If Charlotte only wants to save herself, she's still heading for Hell.

Finally, Lucifer has already seen that being "in the family" is far from an unmixed blessing as witness what happened to poor Dr. Linda.  It's probably not the best idea to do that to someone who's clearly dealing with her own troubles.

For the record, Mom didn't "redeem herself."  Her son, Lucifer basically banished her to another universe so he wouldn't be forced to destroy her, because he loved her.

Edited November 4, 2017 by johntfs

[Jacks-Son]

2 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

In some way, she did redeem herself. She learned that these human play things DID have value. She even came to admire some of them and in Dan's case, she learned to "like him a lot". Lucifer COULD have destroyed her with the dagger, but like Amenadude, they realized that there was some good in Mum and she did love her kids and her husband.

Wow, tough crowd.  Quoting myself, what, in this paragraph is incorrect?

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

Wow, tough crowd.  Quoting myself, what, in this paragraph is incorrect?

The bit where she "did redeem herself."  In the end despite all the rest of what you noted, Mom was still the one who tortured Dr. Linda for information and would have killed Dad knows how many people at the beach area, including Chloe and Dan.  If anyone gained a measure of redemption there, it was Lucifer, who sent Mom into her own universe where she wouldn't be harmed or be able to return and do harm to others.  Essentially Lucifer gave his mother the same kind of mercy his father gave him - exile instead of death or annihilation.  Though I doubt Lucifer has quite thought of it that way.  Making a hard but selfless choice is likely the thing that gave Lucifer his wings back.

[Jacks-Son]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

The bit where she "did redeem herself."

Okay, that's NOT what I said precisely, I said, "In some way, she did redeem herself." As I said, Mum came in, in the words of Commandant Mele-On Grayza on Farscape, "You came in here big and bold, dancing on tabletops. And look at you now, begging for scraps". Mum came in with a plan. She was going to kick these humans in the face and take her boys back. She broke out of Hell when Luci left it unguarded and made it to Midgard. She grabbed bodies indiscriminately, not caring what she did with them. She was ruthless. She even planned to kill Chloe, but then she realized the her husband had put Chloe in Lucifer's path. Okay, she planned to use that fact and manipulate the situation to her advantage, but, to me, she gradually began to see that these humans were more than just toys, animals, and slowly began to enjoy her interactions with them.  What did she say? She learned to enjoy certain things on Earth like carousels and cotton candy (or something) and booze. She liked Dan.  DAN, the guy that Pierce kicks around. She started to have a little fun. Then her troubles began when she started leaking light. She tried to keep it under wraps but the dickwad wannabe rapper stabbed her and died. She went through the hilarious pantomime with Lucifer and Chloe to get the object back. All she wanted to do was get back home. She didn't mean to kill him. Nor did she initially try to kill Linda when she went too her for help. Admittedly, she did threaten Linda if she didn't help her, but she did tell her to duck, knowing that the light could kill Linda (which she probably wanted to avoid at the time of her need). 

At the time she went to the Santa Monica Pier, she only wanted to force Lucifer not to kick her out of her chance to return to Heaven. I don't think she really wanted to kill everyone, just use the threat to force Lucifer not to kick her out or worse yet, throw her ass in Heaven and have dad and mum fight it out. I don't think she was worthy of Hell and neither was Lucifer. Her crime, according to the story of Lucifer is that she wanted to kill God's playthings by causing The Flood, and other cataclysmic events; but maybe she was just a bored housewife and needed her husband's attention (J/K).

I just think Mum had developed some redeeming qualities. Lucifer did. Hell, even Mazakeen did. Why not Mum? If the the current theory is that everyone eventually changes, why not Mum?

[johntfs]

14 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

I just think Mum had developed some redeeming qualities. Lucifer did. Hell, even Mazakeen did. Why not Mum? If the the current theory is that everyone eventually changes, why not Mum?

Fine, Mom changed some in her time on Earth.  Presumably she already had some redeeming qualities or God wouldn't have fallen for her and married her in the first place.  So what?  My point was that she wasn't redeemed and then granted her own universe as a reward for her goodness.  She got it because her son loved her and that was the only way to save both her and the other people he cared about.

[Jacks-Son]

1 minute ago, johntfs said:

My point was that she wasn't redeemed and then granted her own universe as a reward for her goodness.  She got it because her son loved her and that was the only way to save both her and the other people he cared about.

I looked at my original comment and I said, "They should have explained to her that the Goddess had been in Hell and was banished by God, but ultimately redeemed herself. IMHO, it was a missed opportunity by the writers." That was poorly worded and you're right, I gave the impression that Mum fully redeemed herself.

I didn't really mean to say that Mum fully redeemed herself, however I didn't mean to imply that as a reward Lucifer gave her an empty universe. I agree, that by the time Lucifer sent her away, she was a danger to everyone near her because she was liable to blow.  What Lucifer did was the best resolution.

[Lugal]

23 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

As I recall, Mum went through several bodies that, unfortunately, didn't work out. When she finally inhabited Charlotte Richards she was pleased with her choice. I say it was part convenience and part choice. She could have left the body if she was unsatisfied with "it".

She inhabited recently dead people that due to circumstance (Dad's interference?) were killed immediately after (like the gangmember, when his murder said "Didn't I just kill you?" and shot him again)  Charlotte Richards was the first body Mum took that didn't get re-killed, and after that she was stuck in that body.  But Charlotte was dead, with a screwdriver in her back, as I recall.  And she was killed while having an illicit affair.  And like she said, by defending the horrible people she knew were guilty, it is no shock that Charlotte would end up in Hell.  She was lucky enough to get a second chance when Mum vacated her body, but like Malcolm, she remembers (somewhat) the experience while she was down there.

[Jacks-Son]

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

She was lucky enough to get a second chance when Mum vacated her body, but like Malcolm, she remembers (somewhat) the experience while she was down there.

Realizing that she was in Hell, would be a good reason to welcome her to the family since she's now a believer. I just would like someone besides Linda being the sole human who knows. Ella would fangirl Lucifer like crazy. The knowledge that Dad is real might send her to a Nunnery.

[Lugal]

I agree that having another mortal in the know would be good.  Linda at least would have someone to talk to.  But I wouldn't classify Charlotte as a believer, not just yet.  She's lost several months and come back to find her life blown apart and more importantly her worldview has been shaken to the core. She's still trying to figure out what she believes.

As for Ella, I don't think the knowledge that Dad is real would really shake her up that much since she already has faith, and would just confirm what she already knows.  I also don't think she would fangirl Lucifer but I think she could be genuinely conflicted on the matter.  Ella's faith may tell her the devil exists, but the fact that she's been interacting with him for months might throw her for a loop.

[Zipper]

Enjoyed this episode overall.  Tricia Helfer did some strong work with the "real" Charlotte, and I appreciate not having her fate hanging out there as an unknown.  Agree with those who saw a toned down Ella-- slapping the pudding from Dan's hand made me LOL.  A bit dramatic, sure, but he had been going through those cups pretty quick.

One nit pick on the crime story, and it ruined that aspect of the ep for me.  If the competing companies (Plus and Heavenly) were going to merge, which agreement had been on the table for several weeks, there is literally ZERO reason for the chemist/maker to sell the recipe to Heavenly's owner.  Under a merger, regardless of which corporate entity survives, the recipe would serve (or harm) the interests of any/all owners.  Maybe I missed something, but if the motive-alibi for Heavenly's owner was that she wanted to buy the recipe, that's BS (and likely a massive breach of the merger contract).  Liked the ultimate reveal that the chemist was blowing the whistle, but that sure was a grisly way to go.  

I'm okay with a big cast, as long as the writers have enough story to keep them all engaged.  It's the 1, 2,3 (Maze, Linda, Amenadude) gap that made this ep seem thin on the favorites.  Maybe one of the problematic things is that LAB's pregnancy, beyond absenting Maze, makes Linda harder to get on the show.  They have two primary points of connection for Linda-- as Luci's therapist and as Maze's buddy.  So if Luci isn't in therapy in any given week, and Maze is gone, then bringing Linda around requires sitting her in the bar or something more creative (i.e., having enough story).  And we're not seeing a constant commitment to that level of creativity for purposes of the second/third tier characters.

So far this season I see the show as having as three tiers of characters:  Luci/Chloe; Maze/Amen/Linda; Dan/Ella/Trixie/Charlotte/LT. The second tier is key, because they all know about the supernatural-- so they help keep that narrative supported in the context of the show's structure (quasi procedural). When no second tier characters are there, it feels like a huge loss.  Yes, we're seeing a lot more of Ella than my placement of her importance would indicate, and I get that from the crime scene aspect-- but if she's not going to be in on the supernatural, they need to be limiting her time.  Like her a lot, but right now she's not central to anything other than advancing the investigations. Same is going to be true for the new LT-- if he is the one with the hanging file folders, he's going to work himself up in the order of importance, but right now he's just a drag for me, and I was happy to see him absent.  Dan is harder-- a very good actor, pairs well with everyone in the show, and he has a multi-level connection to Chloe (cop/ex/Trixie-daddy). So he works both in the procedural and to keep Chloe humanized, but again, having him standing around eating pudding with no Maze, Amen, or Linda feels thin.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 hours ago, Lugal said:

And like she said, by defending the horrible people she knew were guilty, it is no shock that Charlotte would end up in Hell.

I assume that everyone knows that if no one defends "horrible people ... [who are] guilty", those horrible people will go free due to their constitutional right to a speedy trial and the whole criminal justice system will break down.

Advocates must represent their client zealously and to the best of their ability, within the rules of law. Why would that condemn one to Hell? Quite the opposite, I would think. If no one will defend accused rapists, then accused rapists will all go free. Or should we become like certain other countries (North Korea, Iran) where when everyone "knows" you are guilty you receive a mock trial and immediate conviction?

Edited November 5, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/31/2017 at 11:50 AM, Gigi43 said:

Also being a defense lawyer she may have helped terrible people back out on the streets.

Edited November 5, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse
Should be combined with comment above.

[Lugal]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I assume that everyone knows that if no one defends "horrible people ... [who are] guilty", those horrible people will go free due to their constitutional right to a speedy trial and the whole criminal justice system will break down.

Advocates must represent their client zealously and to the best of their ability, within the rules of law. Why would that condemn one to Hell? Quite the opposite, I would think. If no one will defend accused rapists, then accused rapists will all go free. Or should we become like certain other countries (North Korea, Iran) where when everyone "knows" you are guilty; you receive a mock trial and immediate conviction?

It's not a matter of defense in a court of law or the criminal justice system as a whole (which hardly matches up to morality anyway).  I tend to trust defense attorneys more than prosecutors, but I have to acknowledge that innocent people go to jail and guilty people walk free all the time.

Charlotte defended powerful people like drug lords and corporate criminals who caused a lot of misery, (like the company who decided it would be cheaper for them to pay a few injury/wrongful death suits than to recall their poisoned product) and she knew full well what they were doing but she didn't care because it benefited her personally. That's why she went to Hell.

[CheshireCat]

6 hours ago, Lugal said:

As for Ella, I don't think the knowledge that Dad is real would really shake her up that much since she already has faith, and would just confirm what she already knows.  I also don't think she would fangirl Lucifer but I think she could be genuinely conflicted on the matter.  Ella's faith may tell her the devil exists, but the fact that she's been interacting with him for months might throw her for a loop.

Ella also said that doubt is important to be able to believe, so I'm not sure she wants confirmation. I think it would shake her up in that regard, because she would suddenly be left without any doubt.

[johntfs]

28 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

Ella also said that doubt is important to be able to believe, so I'm not sure she wants confirmation. I think it would shake her up in that regard, because she would suddenly be left without any doubt.

I think Ella would have doubt but it would be the doubt that kind of messed her up.  If she learned that God is real and the Devil is real (and is also a co-worker she considers to be a good friend) it might make her really question God's nature and intentions.  If the Devil is clearly not the "bad guy" he's portrayed as being, then maybe God isn't as good as He's portrayed as being, which could really fuck with Ella's mental and spiritual well-being.  It'd be weird if Lucifer got involved to try to help Ella regain her faith for Ella's sake but not Dad's.

[CheshireCat]

42 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I think Ella would have doubt but it would be the doubt that kind of messed her up.  If she learned that God is real and the Devil is real (and is also a co-worker she considers to be a good friend) it might make her really question God's nature and intentions.  If the Devil is clearly not the "bad guy" he's portrayed as being, then maybe God isn't as good as He's portrayed as being, which could really fuck with Ella's mental and spiritual well-being.  It'd be weird if Lucifer got involved to try to help Ella regain her faith for Ella's sake but not Dad's.

Didn't she already agree, though, that the Devil isn't responsible for everything bad in the world? I think it was in the first or second episode with her.

[Pindrop]

I have just caught up with season 3. Lucifer remains my light-hearted escapism go to, especially since iZombie jumped the shark last season and lost all levity in the process.

I am surprised by Superman. I used to hate him in Superman: The Wonder Years, or whatever that show was called, but probably due to the angsty, self-obsessed pseudo-psychoanalysis that formed most of the jaw-clenchingly awful script, rather than his acting ability. He is actually good in Lucifer (and I assume will turn out to be this season’s big bad).

It is also nice to see the Cylon return.

All in all, it remains as enjoyable as ever.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Pindrop

[Jacks-Son]

Okay, translation, I think:

Superman = Tom Welling = Lt. Pierce

Cylon = Tricia Helfer = Charlotte Richards

Superman: The Wonder Years = Smallville (?) This one, I have no clue, just spitballing here.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Jacks-Son

[jhlipton]

On 11/6/2017 at 11:19 AM, Jacks-Son said:

Okay, translation, I think:

Superman = Tom Welling = Lt. Pierce

Cylon = Tricia Helfer = Charlotte Richards

Superman: The Wonder Years = Smallville (?) This one, I have no clue, just spitballing here.

That's what I thought.

[ganesh]

Interesting of the show to show the fallout of the actual Charlotte. Tv-wise I like the actor, so it's also a clever way to have her pop up now and then. I don't think she should have learned the truth so soon either. 

Going at Lucifer and him being completely grossed out was hilarious, capped by banging into the piano.