A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

While listening to my Disney playlist, I was thinking about how much Once stayed true to the spirit of the Disney films. (Disregarding the main characters, because they really needed to be their own thing for many reasons.)

Neverland was intended to be a sharp contract in tone with the young playfulness of the original. It was a place you didn't want to be, rather than where you wish you could be. Specifically with Pan, Emma, Neal, and Rumple, the "childhood identity crisis" theme was definitely present. Where it failed, in my opinion, was the Regina/Tink plot and Ariel. Those two things really disrupted the emotion of everything else going on. They weren't as caught out as say, The Bear King, but they both awkwardly shoehorned in other characters. Maybe it would have helped if Ariel had any connection to the other mermaids or Regina knew Tink as a child. It really wasn't a huge deal and I'm just nitpicking. Besides a lack of Neverland worldbuilding, there wasn't much else to complain about.

I know it's not known as a Disney property, but Oz was very much botched up. Not just in 3B, either. Western culture associates Oz with "there's no place like home", but that wasn't such a strong element in the books. The books were more of a straight-up fantasy with plenty of lore, but packaged for children. It wasn't like a Grimm's fairy tale with a one-and-done story in a traditional setting. Oz had its own rules and history. The writers on Once seemed to always be allergic to it. Yeah, we saw witches, Munchkins and flying monkeys, but it wasn't about them. It was about Regina's sister, or Red's new girlfriend, or Hades' wooby romance. In my opinion, it could have functioned as another Enchanted Forest for Once in terms of scale and story depth. We could have spent an entire arc just going through Ozian stuff, or even a whole spinoff. (Emerald City better not let me down.)

Frozen was one of the few franchises A&E understood the meaning of. It was about sisters, and it never really strayed from that. Though, Ingrid did an ample job of adding another dimension. She gave Frozen a reason for even being on the show. You could have just told a live-action Frozen story and it would have been fine on its own. One thing I didn't like was the clunky inclusion of the Once characters. Anna's tour of Misthaven was very random. Rumple being the giver of the gloves sort of made sense... ish. Ingrid being Emma's foster mom did nothing but spur "OMG! She was ______ the whole time!?" reactions. Effectively, it just made Ingrid slightly more sympathetic. That was it. Other than all that, the actors all did really well at adapting the Frozen characters. Elizabeth Lail's perkiness was so borderline creepy that I bet A&E knew what part they wanted her for in Dead of Summer.

I'm not even going to touch Camelot. That's a deep rabbit hole.

After the Hercules episode aired, there were all these viewers disappointed that he wasn't going to be in the rest of the arc. While I can't say I joined them, I could see why they felt that way. It was weird that Hades was the only mainstay guest star. If the Underworld had been more fleshed out in Western culture, I would probably say it had the same problem as Oz. We saw bits and pieces of the mythology, but it really about whoever the main characters were interacting with. In this case, the dead characters. Even then, Zelena stole the focus out of flipping nowhere. In short, no I don't think Once was even close to reaching for Greek mythology in any meaningful sense. It didn't even try to emulate Disney's Hercules that well. Poor Megara was the strongest character in that movie and on Once she became the very character she didn't want to be - a damsel in distress.

Edited December 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I watched "A Bitter Draught" and "The Other Shoe" tonight.  When these first three episodes are watched back-to-back, it feels a little less scattered.  I still didn't like much of it, but I didn't hate it either... even the Emma death vision stuff have been alright.  Maybe it's because I know her keeping it a secret basically amounted to nothing?  

When Regina slammed the storybook onto the counter at Granny's before giving her "inspirational" speech which would only have meant anything to the audience (and certainly not to Enchanted Forest refugees), Granny gave her such a dirty look.  I wonder if that was in the script.  Granny also seemed to overhear Emma making that crack about the horrible mattresses at Granny's... 

There were an awful lot of "A Bitter Draught" that felt pointless knowing what's to come.  The Evil Queen claimed that the darkness in Regina's heart would spread but it hasn't.  She claimed Regina would tear them all apart but she hasn't.  She claimed they would tear each other apart, and they haven't.  Maybe I'm a softie, but I felt angry for Edmond Dantes and Charlotte once again.  In these first three episodes at least, Zelena is still used in significant ways.  I think the fact that Regina did put a blood magic protection on the Vault actually says how much she trusted Zelena, contrary to this rift they're trying to force into this arc.  Up to the end of this third episode, the use of Belle was also better because she got to have conversations with other people.  They were really overdosing on the Snow/Regina stuff.  Blech.

My friend basically scoffed at how gullible Snowing were in "A Bitter Draught".  In both episodes, they had Snow proclaim that they would beat the Evil Queen, always followed by someone asking "How?".  It's so ridiculous.  My friend predicted that David wouldn't burn the paper with the coin on it.  She commented that villains always apparate out in a cloud of smoke (that happened a lot in just two episodes).  She didn't remember who Ashley was at all, until the flashback reminded us that she was Cinderella.  She wasn't clamouring to watch another episode, though, so that's where we stopped tonight.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Evil Queen claimed that the darkness in Regina's heart would spread but it hasn't.

I think it's safe to say that it has. Her hypocritical and unforgiving speech to Zelena, followed by her terrorizing naive Emma and killing "fake" Snowing shows she's as Dark as she ever was. Her heart looks pretty black too. I think they're gonna kill the EQ and say Regina grew the Darkness back or something.

[Mitch]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

 

I know it's not known as a Disney property, but Oz was very much botched up. Not just in 3B, either. Western culture associates Oz with "there's no place like home", but that wasn't such a strong element in the books. The books were more of a straight-up fantasy with plenty of lore, but packaged for children. It wasn't like a Grimm's fairy tale with a one-and-done story in a traditional setting. Oz had its own rules and history. The writers on Once seemed to always be allergic to it. Yeah, we saw witches, Munchkins and flying monkeys, but it wasn't about them. It was about Regina's sister, or Red's new girlfriend, or Hades' wooby romance. In my opinion, it could have functioned as another Enchanted Forest for Once in terms of scale and story depth. We could have spent an entire arc just going through Ozian stuff, or even a whole spinoff. (Emerald City better not let me down.)

 

Totally agree on Oz  because of Baum's books and all his successors, of all the "realms "on this show Oz has the most developed set of rules, history,  culture and even geography.

The Enchanted Forest is just really as generic "place," for all of Grimm's and Disney's characters to be placed, where Oz, in the books as a land is a character of itself. But leave it to A & E to pick the most easy and boring and just goofy way out...stealing a little from Wicked and a little from the bad Disney Oz movie...(it would have been more interesting if Zelena was just the Wicked Witch, a Big Bad out to terrorize the country and rule her land, and instead of making her pathic and wanting to time travel, it was to get possesion of the ruby slippers which, because of Dorothy were in our world...so she and Rump were desperate to get them...also it would have been cool if Regina's sister was actually...Glinda..setting up a real conflict with the sister's after Zelena was defeated and neutralized.)Dont even get me started on the stupidity of the Winged Monkeys just being something that Zelena could easily turn someone into...(why didn't she just turn all of SB into monkeys and wait for Snow to have her baby???)

I am still hoping that good old Mombi is somewhere in Storybrooke, laying low as she keeps gender confused Ozma as her "ward." Stealing a little bit of magic here and there until she is ready to kick some ass.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Mitch

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think it's safe to say that it has. Her hypocritical and unforgiving speech to Zelena, followed by her terrorizing naive Emma and killing "fake" Snowing shows she's as Dark as she ever was. Her heart looks pretty black too. I think they're gonna kill the EQ and say Regina grew the Darkness back or something.

That's basically where I am with the whole Regina/EQ thing. There are a lot of things that she did in 6A that sort of flew under the radar or were excused like killing the Count of Monte Cristo for instance. That's a big one, imo, and she was told she didn't have a choice by her enablers. She tore into Zelena in 6x01 as well. If anything, 6x01 seems to have now been a prelude to what happened in 6x09 and they used the same set up with 6x02 and 6x10 when she killed Snowing.

Regina may have taken out the dark parts or whatever, but her instincts are still the same. 

[CCTC]

22 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Regina may have taken out the dark parts or whatever, but her instincts are still the same. 

This is probably giving the writers too much credit, but they foreshadowed this with Dr. Jekyll continuing going dark eveb after the Hyde split.  It would be nice if they actually dealt with darkness being part of her nature that she is going to have to handle without a quick fix and take responsibility for her actions.  Even as much as the writers love Regina, even they must have intended for Regina to look hypocritical and non-hero like with how she was so unforgiving of Zelina (OK - it is possible they are that obtuse). 

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, CCTC said:

This is probably giving the writers too much credit, but they foreshadowed this with Dr. Jekyll continuing going dark eveb after the Hyde split.  It would be nice if they actually dealt with darkness being part of her nature that she is going to have to handle without a quick fix and take responsibility for her actions.  Even as much as the writers love Regina, even they must have intended for Regina to look hypocritical and non-hero like with how she was so unforgiving of Zelina (OK - it is possible they are that obtuse). 

This is what I find so difficult to understand when it comes to Regina and the writers. 

Using the dagger to control someone is canonically wrong, but when Regina does it, the writers call her a great friend in the DVD commentary. 

There are the things that Regina does, and the things that everyone else does.

Regina = Good, because reasons.

Everyone else = Bad.

[Camera One]

Her hypocritical and unforgiving speech to Zelena, followed by her terrorizing naive Emma and killing "fake" Snowing shows she's as Dark as she ever was. Her heart looks pretty black too. I think they're gonna kill the EQ and say Regina grew the Darkness back or something.

I don't think it's consistent enough to mean much.  Throughout most of 6A, Regina's intentions have been reasonably good and she also seems to have gained a little more self-awareness when she's with anyone except Zelena (so to me, the unforgiving stuff is just dragging out the conflict until their hug it out at the end or to make Zelena's death scene more poignant).  Plus, if the Writers meant to do something, they'd be hitting us on the head with it.  Instead, they defend Regina killing Snowing because they were fake.  

Dr. Jekyll had dark instincts, Hyde had dark instincts... all that tells us is Jekyll's potion was crap and didn't separate the light from the dark.  It's simplistic as hell since most "normal" people don't push people out of windows out of anger.  It just split someone into sort-of light and sort-of dark.  Except Regina just acts exactly the same as she did before.  And so did Jekyll until he went psycho and tried to murder Belle.  I don't see how that's a big revelation or big character development.  It all feels all over the place and random.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I don't think it's consistent enough to mean much.  Throughout most of 6A, Regina's intentions have been reasonably good and she also seems to have gained a little more self-awareness when she's with anyone except Zelena (so to me, the unforgiving stuff is just dragging out the conflict until their hug it out at the end or to make Zelena's death scene more poignant).  Plus, if the Writers meant to do something, they'd be hitting us on the head with it.  Instead, they defend Regina killing Snowing because they were fake.  

It's downright impossible for me to analyze this show without taking the meta into account. Regina's actions in 6A are her usual "hero" and "bestie" deeds. The kind like controlling others with the dagger, you know. If the writers wanted Regina to go dark over the arc, we wouldn't have seen her in the finale being reluctant to go Evil Queen in that scene with Wish!Rumple. Like you said, killing Wish!Snowing would have gotten more attention too.

Found this on the OUAT Wikipedia page. This is apparently the shortest and most concise description you can make of 6A:

Quote

The characters must defend Storybrooke from the combined threat of Mr. Hyde and an unleashed Evil Queen while the mysterious fate of saviors leads to Emma learning about Aladdin.

If I hadn't watched it, my reaction to this would be, "Um.... okay?"

Edited December 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

On 12/22/2016 at 10:28 PM, KingOfHearts said:

What I don't understand is... how did no one recognize Regina, Snow, or Charming in Camelot? Weren't they all pretty well known?

Especially since they talked like they had major balls all the time at Camelot. Wouldn't they have invited the rulers of neighboring kingdoms? Regina showed up to the engagement ball at Midas's castle. Surely she would have gone to at least one Camelot ball, whether with Leopold or while she was playing queen. Oh, but wait, she never danced at a ball! And then Snow and Charming went to the ball at Cinderella's prince's palace, but they were never invited to a ball at Camelot, a day's walk away? Arthur and Guinevere didn't go to Snow and Charming's state wedding? Or the engagement ball Midas threw?

On 12/23/2016 at 0:37 AM, Camera One said:

Watching Emma "choose" Hook over her heart as the true love test to get into the room with the ambrosia, and then in the next episode watching Hook "choose" saving Arthur over getting the storybook that could save Emma... makes you wonder which pairing actually has the true love.

Well, Emma wasn't in imminent danger when Hook was getting the book, as far as he knew. Hook has such total faith in Emma that he probably thought she had it all under control and he just needed to give her a little assistance, but he couldn't let someone perish right in front of him.

8 hours ago, CCTC said:

This is probably giving the writers too much credit, but they foreshadowed this with Dr. Jekyll continuing going dark eveb after the Hyde split.  It would be nice if they actually dealt with darkness being part of her nature that she is going to have to handle without a quick fix and take responsibility for her actions.  Even as much as the writers love Regina, even they must have intended for Regina to look hypocritical and non-hero like with how she was so unforgiving of Zelina (OK - it is possible they are that obtuse). 

I fear they really are that obtuse. There's been no indication whatsoever that they see Regina's actions as bad or that she was in the wrong in what she said to Zelena. It would be totally consistent with the way she's portrayed. She's always the victim, so in the writers' eyes, Zelena really was in the wrong, really did wrong Regina, and Regina was perfectly justified in saying what she did. They won't see that or her behavior in the wishverse as at all wrong.

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Evil Queen claimed that the darkness in Regina's heart would spread but it hasn't.  She claimed Regina would tear them all apart but she hasn't.  She claimed they would tear each other apart, and they haven't.

And this is why I fear that they are obtuse. If they meant it, after this setup you'd think they would have called back to it. Regina was momentarily afraid the Evil Queen was right, so if they intended to show her growing darkness, they should have shown her pausing after tearing into Zelena and wondering what she'd just done (or maybe had EQ pop by to gloat at her about going dark), and she should have been really freaked out about killing the Wish!Charmings.

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I don't think it's consistent enough to mean much.  Throughout most of 6A, Regina's intentions have been reasonably good and she also seems to have gained a little more self-awareness when she's with anyone except Zelena (so to me, the unforgiving stuff is just dragging out the conflict until their hug it out at the end or to make Zelena's death scene more poignant). 

I feel like they've doubled down on Regina's hero complex. I do agree that they're drawing out this artificial conflict with Zelena for the last minute "let's hug it out" reconciliation, but they also showed Regina's heart being still dark. 

Quote

Regina was momentarily afraid the Evil Queen was right, so if they intended to show her growing darkness, they should have shown her pausing after tearing into Zelena and wondering what she'd just done (or maybe had EQ pop by to gloat at her about going dark), and she should have been really freaked out about killing the Wish!Charmings. 

Regina not freaking out about killing Wish!Snowing is typical of her lack of self-awareness.  Besides, the Show is very uneven in leaving clues. The writers are afraid to foreshadow things and "ruin" the suspense. I bet the great "twist" is going to be that Regina grew back the Darkness.

Quote

Plus, if the Writers meant to do something, they'd be hitting us on the head with it.  Instead, they defend Regina killing Snowing because they were fake.  

The way they kept having Regina insist they were all "fake" had everything to do with Robin and nothing to do with Regina. It's supposed to be this great emotional conflict that Regina is so moved by a "fake" Robin that she missed her portal back to her "real" son. 

[Camera One]

Quote

And this is why I fear that they are obtuse. If they meant it, after this setup you'd think they would have called back to it. Regina was momentarily afraid the Evil Queen was right, so if they intended to show her growing darkness, they should have shown her pausing after tearing into Zelena and wondering what she'd just done (or maybe had EQ pop by to gloat at her about going dark), and she should have been really freaked out about killing the Wish!Charmings.

"A Bitter Draught" made it a huge deal that Regina killed The Count of Monte Cristo, and how heroes always find a third way blah blah blah.  But if that were the case, why did the Writers choose to have Charming kill Percival (and someone else I forgot) outright?  They never implied Charming became dark because of it.  This inconsistency makes it impossible to buy that killing The Count made Regina any darker than she was or she was going backwards or whatever.  Plus no one ever mentioned it again, including The Evil Queen.

Quote

Regina not freaking out about killing Wish!Snowing is typical of her lack of self-awareness.  Besides, the Show is very uneven in leaving clues. The writers are afraid to foreshadow things and "ruin" the suspense. I bet the great "twist" is going to be that Regina grew back the Darkness.

The show did not frame killing Snowing as a bad thing.  Emma even thanked her.  The Writers in defending that it wasn't murder was basically saying that it wasn't a big deal.  In the interviews, the Writers doesn't highlight how Regina has been struggling with darkness in 6A.  Eddy used future tense in describing Regina's inner conflict, whereas for some other characters, they were pointing out what has happened so far.  For example:

Quote

Eddy: She decided to cut off the dark side of herself. We realized that Regina has worked really hard at not being bad, but one thing she hasn't worked on is her own happiness. She was on a path to move forward and now she's in an alternate world with a Robin who was created by a wish. We'll have to see what happens.

That makes it sound like she has been on a forward path thus far, and now she's encountering an obstacle.  He also said stuff about Regina choosing "to move forward and not let herself get consumed by revenge or anger".

Edited December 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The show did not frame killing Snowing as a bad thing.  Emma even thanked her.  The Writers in defending that it wasn't murder was basically saying that it wasn't a big deal.  In the interviews, the Writers doesn't highlight how Regina has been struggling with darkness in 6A.  Eddy used future tense in describing Regina's inner conflict, whereas for some other characters, they were pointing out what has happened so far. 

Emma also pointed out to Regina that what she did was pretty dark. They just couldn't resist having Emma thank Regina for killing her fake parents. A&E interviews are full of contradictions, but they kept saying all along that the so-called "big" question of the season was if it was possible to remove the Darkness. And I kinda vaguely remember some interview where Eddy said Regina had grown the Darkness back. But I don't have the energy to sift through recent interviews to find this.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The show did not frame killing Snowing as a bad thing.  Emma even thanked her.  

This is true, but after Emma thanked her (yeah, I just can't with this), she also said that what Regina did was very dark, so it's not like they completely skated over what Regina had just done to Snowing. It's one line, but it's there.

Sure, Regina was being all "cutsie" and "tentative" like she suddenly didn't remember what it was like to be the EQ, but in the end, she behaved exactly like her, by ripping hearts out and crushing them.

[Rumsy4]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Sure, Regina was being all "cutsie" and "tentative" like she suddenly didn't remember what it was like to be the EQ

God. This annoyed me so much! It was so "fake" fake, if you get what I mean.

[Camera One]

I guess to me, that "dark" line sounded like a joke so I took it as a grain of salt.  

I'll see how I feel as I continue to rewatch 6A, but I'm getting the impression that Regina is being relatively noble.  Yes, Regina-colored glasses come with the show.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I do agree that they're drawing out this artificial conflict with Zelena for the last minute "let's hug it out" reconciliation, but they also showed Regina's heart being still dark. 

It's hard to judge by the condition of the heart because that may or may not be from the script and may just be the special effects people. Remember when they admitted that Hook's heart should have looked a little darker rather than pure, bright red when Rumple pulled it out, and there were other times they admitted that the heart color should have been different. It's possible that the effects people just used what they've used in the past for Regina's heart without thinking to change it.

That's the problem with the wonky morality on this show. You never can tell what you're supposed to think about what's going on, can't tell if something is an effects error or done on purpose. So you don't know if Regina is meant to be in the wrong or right because other people have been in the wrong for acting like that, but Regina has acted like that in the past and not been wrong, and you don't know if her heart really is supposed to be light or dark.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Don't bother. Those extremely well-written posts about 4B usually just point out all the inconsistencies and nonsense and then end with a TS;TW disclaimer. Literally NO ONE understands 4B.

I agree, no one understands it. Of all arcs, I believe 4B showed the "shiny toy" syndrome the most. It was so ridiculously choppy in its execution. Every episode was like a different show. Oh, you wanted to see Cruella's backstory? Too bad, we've got to bring back Zelena and learn what Rumple did during the six weeks. It was pretty much a wet dream for the writers' desires, in some respects. They got to make heroes look bad, put Regina on her victimized hero track with the Author, introduce Cruella as a major scenery chewer with an interesting centric, self-insert themselves as Isaac, and throw in a bunch of shocking twists with Lily. The writers got to do whatever they wanted, and look how that turned out. It was like giving an alcoholic the key to the liquor cabinet.

Edited December 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Marathoned "Strange Case" and "Street Rats" tonight.  Both episodes had Regina in full-earnestness mode, with the former ending with her asking Emma to end her if necessary, and the latter with her committed to helping them find Aladdin and even asking Emma how she's feeling and comforting Jasmine.  

My friend seems to find things predictable... she called out several things before they happened, of course the most obvious being "Mary will fall for Mr. Hyde" the moment he walked into the ballroom.  But one part which did confuse her was when Rumple poured the serum onto his dagger, which still seemed incredibly stupid.  My friend also said contemptuously, "Who cares about this" during Mary Margaret, urh, I mean Snow's dumb physics lesson subplot and expressed confusion why she was teaching high school.  

She actually seemed to like Aladdin in "Street Rats", though.  I didn't mind it so much this time around, again, due to lowered expectations.  I think it would have been better if they had not reunited Jasmine and Aladdin in present-day yet, knowing how boring, pointless and repetitive their scenes will get in the next few episodes and what a broken record Jasmine becomes.  I forgot that Zelena and The Evil Queen went to the spa in this episode, so basically, Zelena sat out one episode ("Strange Case") while Rumple and Belle sit out "Street Rats".

[YaddaYadda]

I'm probably in the minority, but I thought "Strange Case" was one of the better episodes in 6A. Maybe it's because they knew exactly what they wanted to do with it. I still wasn't a huge fan of the flashbacks, but they actually made sense, except for Rumple, but he knows everyone so whatever.

[Camera One]

From the episode thread, most people didn't think it was that bad (considering some of the duds of the season, I wouldn't be surprised if this one floated towards the "better" end of the scale).  There was mainly just disappointment that Mr. Hyde was gone so soon.  Broken down, the main subplots of "Strange Case" were:

- Flashbacks: Jekyll/Hyde/Mary/Rumple
- Present-day Storybrooke A Plot: Hyde and The Evil Queen find Jekyll, Take His Serum and Threaten Rumple Through Belle
   (supporting players: Regina, Emma and David trying to chase down Hyde or protect Jekyll; Hook talking to Belle)
- B Plot: Snow and Jasmine teaches physics at school
- D Plot (barely... 2 conversations): Emma/David "dealing" with Emma moving out with Hook.

At its core was a Rumple/Belle story, featuring Guest Character Jekyll/Hyde.  It did use all of the cast members except Zelena, who sat this episode out (Henry also didn't play a prominent role but he was there at the beginning).  It was also a "climax" episode for the character of Mr. Hyde, and A&E tend to plan out the ending of their arcs first, so it isn't surprising that they knew where they wanted to go with that.

The B plot would have been more interesting and better integrated if Snow was processing or helping the Untold Stories people, and met Jasmine that way.  Snow and Jasmine could commiserate over their lacklustre leadership skills (maybe Snow could realize it when she was talking to the Untold Stories refugees who had escaped The Enchanted Forest during The Evil Queen's reign), and maybe contribute to defeating Hyde or at least protecting the Untold Stories people from him in this episode in some way.  Or if they didn't plan on continuing with the Untold Stories stuff, Snow and Jasmine could inspire them to complete their stories en masse and "move on".... then Hyde would have nothing on them.

I mean, up to and including this episode, every second line out of Hyde was "When the untold stories play out..."

Edited December 30, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

13 minutes ago, Camera One said:

up to and including this episode, every second line out of Hyde was "When the untold stories play out..."

When the stars in the sky align with the stars on the hat...

[KingOfHearts]

"Strange Case" broke up my Hyde Queen, and for that it can never be forgiven.

The best episode in 6A was probably "The Other Shoe", but that's not saying much. At the most, it was passable. As much as I adored Lady Tremaine, she had to carry it. Ashley and Clorinda were pretty forgettable. The only other episode I could watch again was probably "Dark Waters", if only for the Nautilus imagery.

Street Rats belongs on the top worst episodes lists.

Quote

When the stars in the sky align with the stars on the hat...

... and I can cleave myself of Jekyll ...

Edited December 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

26 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

... and I can cleave myself of Jekyll ...

Using the Magic Shears?  

[Camera One]

21 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I understand 4B;)  it was a meta arc intended to explain what happens when the writers try to guide the plot.  They scrapped the original plan in a fit of pique when one too many fans griped at them about answering interview questions like they had no control over what happens or might happen in the show. 

4B is a tribute to the misunderstood, underappreciated underdogs out there, such as television writers who find it so hard to get a break in the business that looks down on them.  There's Isaac, who was treated like crap as a TV salesman, who yearned to write out of the box.  There's Regina, who tried so hard to save Marian but could never reach her happy ending, but as the underdog, was by far the most popular character in Isaac's book.  There's Lily, who had to grow up with more darkness than her fair share, but was looked down upon by the holier than thou Young Emma.  There's Maleficent, who was vilified, but everyone didn't know how the santimonious Snowing stole her baby and deprived her of seeing her precious daughter grow up.  Yet it's the villains who can never get their happy endings?  SOOOO unfair.  And finally, there's Cruella, who admirably kept trying to reach her goals without ever giving up, so she got rewarded with an extended cameo in 5B.  Meanwhile, goody-too-shoes Ursula who?  Let's sing it together... B-O-R-I-N-G-M-O-U-S-E!  

Edited December 30, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

4B is the ultimate lesson in blaming everyone else for your own flaws. It's not a "do not" lesson, either.

Edited December 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

My friend is leaving in a couple of days so she suggested watching three tonight... "Dark Waters", "Heartless" and "I'll Be Your Mirror".  

It was surprising reasonably watchable.  I don't know if it's partly because it was fun to watch with a friend, but it actually felt like a coherent story.  Maybe because each episode flowed directly into the next... it was like watching a long movie.  Even the Jasmine/Aladdin Storybrooke stuff, or the continuing Emma-deals-with-death conversations didn't seem too bad.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe within a single episode, everything feels severely lacking, but perhaps they feel like they add up to *something* over multiple episodes.  I'm not saying it's a masterpiece but it didn't feel like the full-on jump-the-shark that I've been feeling about this show lately. 

Another thing I noticed was when watched in quick succession like this, Zelena actually doesn't feel underused, definitely nowhere to the extent of Robin Hood or Will, by far.

As hokey as the sentiments are, the "You're not alone if someone believes in you" message in "Heartless" seemed reinforced in the next episode with Henry, Emma and Regina talking about how with family, they're never alone.  The one subplot that still annoyed me the most was the Belle/Rumple stuff.  I couldn't help it. 

My friend was starting to get at the nonsensical use of magic.  She thought it was ridiculous that Emma and Hook were packing the vault by hand instead of using magic in "Heartless".  She also didn't understand what the point of the magic sapling was or the significance of Snowing remembering their first meeting.  She commented on the bad costume given to the Blue Fairy.  She also thought it was dumb how Charming and the others drove to give Snow a TLK, and asked why they drove two cars.  

Edited December 31, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I finished marathoning 6A last night with my friend.  We watched "Changelings" and "Wish You Were Here".

On rewatch, I felt "Changelings" was just as bad or worse than "Wish You Were Here".  I couldn't buy the emotions behind the Rumbaby saga, and it's even worse knowing that A&E meant for us to feel for Rumple, that he got to the line of doing the worst thing you could do to somebody but didn't cross it, or whatever the hell they said.  So the second time, Rumple's monologues were just plain boring/tedious and Belle's monologues weren't moving either.  She was still uttering stuff like, "This is not the man that he could be" in "Heartless".  And if aging that innocent young nun isn't disturbing enough, she says that IF he speeds up her pregnancy, *then* he'll lose her forever?  Nothing else he did this season or last season or the season before falls into that category?  Even my friend during the Rumple-steals-baby flashback said, "How did she fall for him?!"  The Regina refusing to forgive Zelena stuff was annoying to rewatch.  Even though the Writers were good at manipulating sympathy for Zelena, she still went all whiny with the "You're stealing from me now?"  The Squid Ink thing was pointless (as per usual of the heroes' "plans"... what hasn't been this season).

"Wish You Were Here" was no better the second time around.  My friend was quite incensed over how stupid the characters were, David in particular (also Jasmine and Aladdin for going to Agrabah before asking where it was).  In the Wish Realm, she asked why Emma was acting like she was 5 years old.  On rewatch, the whole alternate reality which could have been interesting (on first watch, I was curious what would happen, so knowing what *does* happen results in zero rewatch value) was such a total caricature that it siphoned any potential emotion out of it.  It was still sickening that the Writers had Emma "wake up" not when she was about to lose her parents, but only when she was about to lose Regina (I know it was "supposed" to be about Henry but I don't buy it... why would your "fake" son killing be any more earth shattering than your "fake" parents dying)?  

So after rewatching these two episodes, I'm back to being disappointed and lacking in HOPE.  Though I must say, I don't think my friend thought the episode was particular bad or good.  She doesn't really care enough to follow the show, or keep up in any way, so she's not invested and probably wouldn't watch if I didn't PVR it and saved it for her to watch with me.  The funny thing was she got NONE of the callbacks to Season 1... she felt the Evil Queen barging into the banquet hall was "familiar" but didn't remember why.  The cupcake scene rang no bells, and she vaguely remembered that a pregnancy was sped up on "some show" we watched together, not knowing if it was this one... I think we watched 5A back in the spring.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

"This is not the man that he could be"

Belle constantly dangles the "man Rumple could be" in front of his nose. She's not saying she sees potential in him becoming a hero, but that he's not good enough for her. She doesn't care if he's good or evil, she just wants him to fit into her idealistic image. That picture just so happens to include a hero. (Her Handsome Hero, rather.) I don't feel sorry for Rumple. He's a terrible person. He doesn't deserve better than Belle, but at the same time, Belle is not some helpless victim. She walks right into the abuse. She keeps Rumple wanting her. "Changelings" is a horrible episode because not only does it highlight how screwed up Rumpbelle is, but it also leaves the light on for the relationship. It dares to suggest Rumple is still capable of being redeemed, which is just not the case. His abstaining from accelerating the pregnancy was entirely out of character.

I guess because Regina "redeemed" herself, she's the textbook example of rehabilitated villains, and therefore you can trust any villain to change. That's not me talking - it's Henry, Regina and Emma. "But if Regina can do it!" Yeah, except, she didn't actually do it.

Edited January 2, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Watching one of the scenes in "Wish You Were Here" gave me dejà vu.  How many scenes have we had where:
- there is no plan
- one character is emotional and wants to go half-cocked into a dangerous situation

------

From "Wish You Were Here"

DAVID: I am not gonna wake my wife to tell her our daughter is missing! I'm gonna get that lamp!
HOOK: Mate! There is nothing I want more than to make the Evil Queen pay for what she did to Emma, but we are outgunned.  We don't have magic.
And we don't even have that sword that she thought she could use to defeat her.  We need a plan!

--

From "Last Rites":

EMMA: Then I'm going, too.
OTHERS: No offense, Emma, but... you're too emotional.  I-I understand.  You had a loss.  But you're not thinking straight.
EMMA: Is that what you all think?
OTHERS: Emma.  We still don't know how to stop Hades.  Until we do...

From "Only You":

OTHERS: Let's go get that crystal!
REGINA: Let's.  Where should we start?
EMMA: Actually, um, I was thinking maybe you should sit this one out.... You're not in any state to think straight about this.
REGINA: And you don't get to tell me what to do.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking about the "problem" arcs and trying to find a pattern. 2B had a couple of problems. While the ADD writing that lurched from half-baked plot idea to half-baked plot idea was a huge problem, I think a bigger issue there, and likely the reason for the big ratings drop (at least, based on just about everyone I've talked to who used to watch the show but quit), was the abrupt perspective shift. We'd gone through an entire season when the story question was mostly whether Snow and her daughter would prevail against the Evil Queen. We saw Regina being awful to everyone in the past and present, and it was a moment of triumph when the curse was broken. There was a bit more sympathy for Regina in 2A, but she wasn't being pitted directly against Snow and Emma. But suddenly in 2B, it's Regina who's the victim and Snow and Emma who are in the wrong against her -- in spite of them showing Regina being even worse in the past, Snow showing her mercy, her teaming with Cora in the present, and then her scheming to destroy the whole town. And yet Snow was in the wrong for plotting against her. I had a fist-pump moment when Snow announced she needed to kill Cora, but then the show declared that to be a bad thing. I thought it was a clever plan to use Cora's own magical device that she tried to deceive Snow with to kill Cora, but the show said that was wrong. It was hard to tell who to pull for, like the show was telling us we were wrong about the entire first season. The sky was green and 2+2=5. When I ask people who started watching the show but quit when they quit and why, almost everyone names this arc and that reason, that they made Snow into a whining wimp who wasn't allowed to stand up against Regina, and there was no one to pull for anymore because they told us that Regina was misunderstood and made the good guys look bad for opposing her, even as they showed her being bad.

And then there was the ADD plotting, where nothing much was being developed before they lurched into the next thing, which is a very similar pattern to 6A. We started with Hook and Cora as antagonists, Hook nearly got his goal, and then his story fizzled until the end of the season (though that one was due to offscreen issues unrelated to the writing -- I hope they've added a "no risky stuff" clause to Colin's contract). Meanwhile they had the anti-magic stuff woven in, which could have been interesting if they'd bothered connecting what they'd set up -- Emma's just learned she has magic powers right before the anti-magic people come to town, and her ex is sympathetic to the anti-magic stuff. Meanwhile, they just barely defeated Cora, and at that point we hadn't yet a non-fairy person with magical powers who wasn't a villain, so Emma was an anomaly. How would the regular Storybrookers deal with the anti-magic stuff? It seems like they wouldn't have had to sneak around. They could have held a rally in front of City Hall and gained some support. But then that got abruptly tossed aside for Neverland.

Though as random as that arc was, it looks disciplined and focused compared to 6A. The only plots we had were Hook vs. Rumple, Cora's scheming, Gregowen and Tamara, Lacey (which was a branch from Hook vs. Rumple), the search for Bae, and Regina's plan to destroy the town. Plus, they wove together a little better and were less random. Hook's revenge against Rumple was linked to the Lacey story and then intersected some with Bae/Neal, Cora's scheming was related to Regina's plan, and Gregowen wanted to destroy magic because of Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I think a bigger issue there, and likely the reason for the big ratings drop (at least, based on just about everyone I've talked to who used to watch the show but quit), was the abrupt perspective shift. We'd gone through an entire season when the story question was mostly whether Snow and her daughter would prevail against the Evil Queen. We saw Regina being awful to everyone in the past and present, and it was a moment of triumph when the curse was broken.

This. From the casual watchers I've talked to that quit, there's a big question of, "Why do we suddenly have to feel sympathy for Regina?" It was jarring. 

Quote

Though as random as that arc was, it looks disciplined and focused compared to 6A. The only plots we had were Hook vs. Rumple, Cora's scheming, Gregowen and Tamara, Lacey (which was a branch from Hook vs. Rumple), the search for Bae, and Regina's plan to destroy the town. Plus, they wove together a little better and were less random. Hook's revenge against Rumple was linked to the Lacey story and then intersected some with Bae/Neal, Cora's scheming was related to Regina's plan, and Gregowen wanted to destroy magic because of Regina.

2B could be split into two parts, divided by Cora's death. The first half, other than The Cricket Game, was not half bad. It was just mostly forgettable. (No one talks about Tiny or Eva's death.) Manhattan felt sort of wedged into everything to me, due in part to Neal being underutilized later. If Neal had a bigger part in 2B, it wouldn't have felt like such a detour. (But I'm getting ahead of myself.) After Cora was killed, that was where the awfulness truly came to stay. I actually don't think the episodes are that horrible on their own, aside from the episode that shall not be named. It was the main plot stuff that tanked so bad.

Back to Neal, I really don't understand what the writers were thinking with him. They created all this drama with Emma, Henry and Rumple in Manhattan, then subsequently dropped it after getting back to Storybrooke. Instead of exploring the obvious, they brought in Tamara. (That evil fiance who creates love triangles in your Hallmark movies.) Maybe that's the problem with 2B - it was when the writers started embracing the "Wouldn't it be cool if..." philosophy and started writing solely for shocking twists.

[Camera One]

The Tamara stuff was completely unnecessary and a waste of time, on all fronts.  There were tons of conflicts that Neal would/could have had in Storybrooke given his complicated history with everyone from Rumple, to Snowing to Regina, and that doesn't even include Emma and Henry.   Cora could have made a deal with Peter Pan to deliver Henry to him, and since Regina was/is their favorite character, why not have her figure out herself that Cora was using her?  It was like they were writing with the sole mission to pull Snow down to the level of Regina.  If you think about 2B, Cora's return resulted in zero character growth for Regina.  

Edited January 3, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

  It was like they were writing with the sole mission to pull Snow down to the level of Regina. 

Eggnapping by no means made Snow as worse as Regina, but it at least was a wrong thing to do. Killing Cora was the right thing to do framed as sin. If the writers were so dead set on making the heroes grayer and taking them down a peg, there were a million other ways to do it. 

It's very strange that Regina's beef with Snow is always for ridiculous reasons. It's consistent. Yet, we're supposed to think Regina really has the right to go on vengeance quests? I don't get it.  Why is it that, with Cora, it's "forgive and forget", but with Snow, it's "hell hath no fury"?

Edited January 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Villains deserve to be forgiven.  Heroes must earn their forgiveness.

[KingOfHearts]

25 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Villains deserve to be forgiven.  Heroes must earn their forgiveness.

Oh, I forgot. This is the Church of A&E. *does ten Praise-Regina's in repentance* 

Edited January 3, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Tsk tsk.  Please rewatch "The Cricket Game", "Breaking Glass", "Bleeding Through" and "An Untold Story" to review your morals.

[Curio]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Tsk tsk.  Please rewatch "The Cricket Game", "Breaking Glass", "Bleeding Through" and "An Untold Story" to review your morals.

You forgot "Wish You Were Here."

[Shanna Marie]

21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

This. From the casual watchers I've talked to that quit, there's a big question of, "Why do we suddenly have to feel sympathy for Regina?" It was jarring. 

Not just suddenly having to feel sympathy for Regina -- in spite of the fact that she was siding with Cora and plotting to destroy the whole town and kill everyone in it -- but having to cheer against all the things we'd been encouraged to cheer for before. Season one was all about us longing to see the Charming family be fully reunited, for Snow and David to know they really were husband and wife and be able to be together guilt-free, for them to know that Emma was their daughter and Henry their grandson. We'd spent a year watching these people be lonely and isolated, and soon after the curse was broken they were separated again. Now we were finally getting what we'd been waiting for -- and instead of us getting to rejoice in that (and even get in a good "Ha, ha!" at Regina in the process), we were supposed to feel bad for Regina and like all these people who'd gone through so much to be together were being mean for not being nice to the person who'd been keeping them apart. Ditto with the Cora stuff -- we were learning how she was behind it all, but when they defeated this terrible villain, using something she'd created to try to tempt Snow as a child, and using that to save a life, instead of it being a moment of triumph, we were supposed to feel like it was a mistake and a terrible thing to do.

The other thing people have cited as reasons for quitting was what they did to Snow. One of the appeals of the series in the first season was the more badass take on Snow White, where instead of being a servant to a bunch of men while she was exiled, she became a freedom-fighting bandit. Then when she reached peak badass in taking out Cora, we were told this was bad, and suddenly she's meekly groveling to Regina, yet again apologizing (even though Regina had yet to apologize to what she did to her), it changed the character into a wimp, and she's never really come back from that. It ruined one of the best things about the show.

21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Back to Neal, I really don't understand what the writers were thinking with him. They created all this drama with Emma, Henry and Rumple in Manhattan, then subsequently dropped it after getting back to Storybrooke.

The change of plans due to Colin's injury shouldn't even have affected Neal's storyline because there was so much other stuff that should have been going on with Neal aside from Hook (I actually think things probably worked out for the best with Hook and Neal because too much talk between them earlier might have ruined the great moment when we saw that Hook was the one who pulled Bae out of the water. We knew they knew each other, but we didn't know much). We never did see Neal react to all the things his father had done to find him, never saw him address what he'd learned about his mother's fate from Hook. Meanwhile, the Lacey storyline they did instead with Rumple went absolutely nowhere, since we never saw Belle react to what she learned during those events. She felt no guilt for what she'd done, wasn't at all disturbed by the way she saw Rumple behaving when he didn't have her to hold him back. He was a total creep, and it didn't affect the way she saw him.

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

If you think about 2B, Cora's return resulted in zero character growth for Regina.  

Actually, it was character reversal. She'd been making progress, then she went back into full-on victim mode, planning to kill everyone so she could have Henry to herself, and learning that Cora had engineered everything didn't change her feelings about Cora or about Snow. She'd been set up and had tortured Snow for years about Cora's actions, but instead of her having an epiphany and clearing the air with Snow, she doubled down against her.

[TheGreenKnight]

Re-watching the first two seasons made me remember why I don't share majority views here. I didn't really see the lasagna scene as heavy-handed--although Henry later going berserk over Emma lying, definitely**--and I didn't really mind that they gave Snow a dark spot because of killing Cora because they framed it as being wrong not because she put a murderer to death, but because she explicitly did it in a way to get revenge (twisting the knife into Regina by having her put Cora's heart back in her chest).

The re-watch made me realize how Rumbelle moved at the speed of light in S2. Prior to 2's premiere, Belle was just someone who served for Rumpel briefly before disappearing (locked in Regina's tower) after Rumpel rejected her. Suddenly when they reunite in S2, they acted like they had been in a long-term relationship. My hate for Milah and especially Neal was reignited. As much as I can't stand Rumpel, it is really satisfying watching him take down Hook in the flashbacks. I couldn't help noticing how ironic Rumpel's speech to Regina about not being able to have everything was, knowing the role reversal of that speech that would come in the last episode of 4A.

**I honestly think it's hilarious how they got fantastic child actors for nearly every single child character on the show except for the one who's a main character (Henry). I mean, young Snow, Pan, young Baelfire, young Emma/Lily, young Pinocchio, Hansel & Gretel are all decent to great.

[Camera One]

I didn't really mind that they gave Snow a dark spot because of killing Cora because they framed it as being wrong not because she put a murderer to death, but because she explicitly did it in a way to get revenge (twisting the knife into Regina by having her put Cora's heart back in her chest).

The problem with the framing is that if A&E was saying Snow took the "easy way" by killing Cora, they need to present the alternative.  Exactly what could she have done instead to stop Cora from becoming The Dark One?  Snow was backed into a corner.  She had no magic and Regina found her in the vault.  She clearly did not intend to kill Cora in a way that would twist the knife extra hard into Regina.  

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

 

The problem with the framing is that if A&E was saying Snow took the "easy way" by killing Cora, they need to present the alternative.  Exactly what could she have done instead to stop Cora from becoming The Dark One?  Snow was backed into a corner.  She had no magic and Regina found her in the vault.  She clearly did not intend to kill Cora in a way that would twist the knife extra hard into Regina.  

The dialogue when she was telling Regina to do it says she did. She played on Regina's hope that Cora would actually love her instead of see her as an object.

Of course, the following episode when she smacked Geppetto and how it was painted like she was falling down a dark path was stupid. (Although I personally don't see what Geppetto did as wrong anyway, Snow's first reaction was understandable.)

[CCTC]

I took it more that she was desperate and had to outwit Regina and Cora and she had to use Regina as the tool to do that -- I never got the impression she got any personal satisfaction out it, just the opposite.  

Unlike the current EQ, Cora was a true menace and more than willing to kill innocent people for kicks.  Really makes her redemption last season seem a little undeserved.  She did manipulate Regina, but I never felt it was for revenge but out of necessity.    

[Shanna Marie]

To me, it's not so much the lasagna stuff that annoyed me in 2B as it was the "poor Regina" moment when Snow and Emma had returned from the Enchanted Forest and the whole family was getting to have their first family dinner. When you've spent nearly three decades trying to keep a group of people apart, you don't get to feel sorry for yourself that they don't invite you to join them when they're reunited. In fact, it would have been a bit presumptuous even for a good friend to feel like they should have been invited. That was a family moment. Let them have it. Not to mention the fact that she hated those people. The only one of them she'd have wanted to have dinner with was Henry. Why was she sad that people she hated didn't want to have dinner with her? That was also one of the many moments that should have been a "come to Jesus" moment for Regina in that arc. It could have been a wake-up call like when she realized that she was treating Henry the way Cora had treated her, since it was a big reminder that when you're awful to people, they aren't super-keen to have you around. That was one of the frustrating things about 2B, that they kept giving Regina opportunities to have a big "hey, I've been doing things wrong" epiphany, and yet she missed all of them entirely and went on to try to kill them all. Yeah, she then saved them, but it was because she got trapped in her own evil scheme. If Greg and Tamara hadn't hijacked the failsafe, she would have happily used it.

Moving on to the next problem arc, 3B, I think the biggest problem there was Idiot Plotting -- the story would have fallen apart entirely if just about every character hadn't behaved like a complete idiot. Chief there was Zelena, making sure she let everyone know she was up to an evil scheme and that she had nefarious designs on Baby Snowflake, and then when she wiped everyone's memories because they'd come up with a way to fight her, she went and did it again. There was no good reason for her to be using the flying monkeys in Storybrooke. What did she care whether random Merry Men went near the town line? All the flying monkeys did was alert everyone to the fact that there was a villain in their midst. It looks even worse when you factor in season 4, where the same woman is able somehow to keep a straight face while posing as Marian. One of these is out of character. Which is it? The wrote two entirely different characterizations, back to back (I'm leaning toward 3B Zelena being more accurate, since she hasn't exactly been subtle after her Marian scheme was exposed).

Then we had Team Hero knowing that Zelena was up to something horrible and not really doing much about it for eight months (there it didn't help that they put all that in one episode, which gave the impression of doing nothing). There was Neal, going through with raising the Dark One even though there was no urgent reason he had to do it right then, he had no plan other than "my papa will know what to do," he knew there would be a cost, and he was warned that it was a trap. There was Rumple, handing a Dark One over to an enemy just so he could say he chose his son over power (and he wasn't even really saving his son, just dooming him to a horrible existence). There was Snow, who knew there was an enemy in town but went ahead and trusted a random stranger just because she said she knew her nurse. There was Grumpy, setting the bait for a trap by running into the diner with information that would make the villain react, and then turning around with his back to the room so he couldn't see any reaction. There was Zelena again, cursing Hook's lips to try to take Emma's power, even though they weren't in a kissing relationship. There was Hook, not telling anyone about this. There was David, knowing about this but sending Emma off to work with the person who could take her magic. There was Emma, not even trying other methods of CPR, like at least rolling the drowning victim onto his side and hitting him on the back to get water out of his lungs before she tried doing mouth-to-mouth. There was Glinda, giving Zelena the power-amplifying necklace just because she went five minutes without stalking her sister, even though she'd been shown to be very unstable. There were the Charmings, sacrificing David's life with no plan for what to do once they were back in Storybrooke. They had no idea where to find Emma or how to reach her, and Emma wouldn't have remembered them. Emma again in the finale, walking up to the freaky tower of light made from the time travel ritual to investigate instead of going to get the people who knew something about magic. If any one of these people had behaved like a rational human being, even up to the point that would be in character for these people, the plot would have fallen apart. That's what makes it infuriating to watch, even though they did a lot of things right, like having one plot with a solid through-line that everything was focused on, and we even had a few good character moments and conversations (some of them were really dumb, but they were there).

[KingOfHearts]

I still don't really believe Snow killed Cora purely out of self defense. I think avenging Joanna and her mother factored in as well. If you watch the episodes leading up to The Miller's Daughter, you can see Snow getting fed up with doing the "good" thing at the cost of her loved ones. 

[Camera One]

If the question is whether Snow had feelings of anger, then of course, yes.  

But that particular circumstance she was in - Cora about to become The Dark One and Regina cornering her in the Vault - there was nothing else she *could* have done except have Regina stuff the heart into Cora herself.  Her existing plan - to get the heart and control Cora herself - was not possible anymore.  There was no way she could have gotten close enough to put the heart into Cora herself, considering she had no magic.  Her feelings about the matter were inconsequential.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Exactly. It's not like Snow owed Regina anything--the opposite, in fact. When Regina discovered Snow n her vault, Regina would have harmed her if Snow had not come up her ruse. What else could she have done--tell the truth, and get her own heart crushed??

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

If the question is whether Snow had feelings of anger, then of course, yes.  

As discussed in the Emma thread, this is reacting like a normal human being--and being punished for it. One can't complain characters are not behaving like human beings, and also say that those natural reactions are bad.

[andromeda331]

20 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Exactly. It's not like Snow owed Regina anything--the opposite, in fact. When Regina discovered Snow n her vault, Regina would have harmed her if Snow had not come up her ruse. What else could she have done--tell the truth, and get her own heart crushed??

As discussed in the Emma thread, this is reacting like a normal human being--and being punished for it. One can't complain characters are not behaving like human beings, and also say that those natural reactions are bad.

Yes! Exactly! What was she suppose to do? Snow took the only chance she had.

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

As discussed in the Emma thread, this is reacting like a normal human being--and being punished for it. One can't complain characters are not behaving like human beings, and also say that those natural reactions are bad.

I would add that if you're killing someone you're not at least a little bit angry at, then you're probably a sociopath. Even if the kill is totally righteous and justified, you're going to be angry at the person for having done the thing that made the killing necessary. The question is whether there are any "greater good" motives or if it's just for personal revenge, and if the killing really is for the greater good.

Let's face it, Cora needed killing. She was an ongoing threat, and nothing was stopping her. She was superpowered, so they were more or less helpless against her. There's no justice system that could deal with her. If there had been, then maybe Snow's anger at her for killing her mother and Johanna would have been taken care of with a nice guilty verdict, but that wasn't an option, and the only way Snow could think of to make sure Cora never killed anyone else again was to kill her. She was personally angry, and there may have been some revenge there, but it was also a greater good. One could argue that it was the kind of tough decision that rulers often have to make on behalf of their people -- that it was worth Snow getting a stain on her heart if it meant Cora couldn't hurt anyone else.

It's funny how Snow has received far more criticism across the board for killing Cora than Regina has for killing Leopold or for trying to kill Snow, and in those cases, it was selfish anger, not with any pretense of greater good benefit.

[Camera One]

Remember, some have made the argument in the past that Regina didn't really kill Leopold.  Or he was abusive so he deserved it.

Killing Snow isn't a big deal... it's not like she died.  And she was suuuuuuuch a brat.