A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

Let's see...

In Episode 2, The Evil Queen got Regina to kill someone.  Oh no.  Oh well, it had zero effect and was never mentioned again.

In Episode 3, The Evil Queen tried to get Emma's "first save" killed.  Oops, didn't work.  Not trying that again.

In Episode 4, The Evil Queen doesn't do anything except spring Hyde free and he dies.

In Episode 5, The Evil Queen impersonates Archie and exposes Emma's secret and then spends some time at the spa.  Darn, it brought that dang Charming family even closer together.

In Episode 6, The Evil Queen tries to make Henry mad at Hook and then throws herself at Rumple.  Oops, they bonded instead.

I can't believe we're SIX episodes into Season 6 and the big episode ender is The Evil Queen wants Snow White's heart.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

Wow, the split Evil Queen is giving S2-Hook and King Arthur a run for their money in the ineffective villain department! 

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, Mathius said:

Wow, the split Evil Queen is giving S2-Hook and King Arthur a run for their money in the ineffective villain department! 

Hey, S2 Hook gets a bad rap, but he was actually pretty effective. Yeah, he spent a lot of time on the floor, but he managed to find a way to kill an unkillable immortal who couldn't even be approached, and it would have worked if the good guys hadn't also been so desperate to stop Cora that they were willing to resort to dark magic. If there hadn't been a Cora around, I suspect they'd have let Rumple die because they wouldn't have been willing to trade anyone else's life for his (unless one of them came up with something stupid like sacrificing themselves to save him). Hook was focused on his goal and didn't get into a lot of time wasting (no spa days for him!). He'd arranged multiple possible ways he could have got himself to Storybrooke, depending on how each alliance ended up working out (if Emma had trusted him, he'd have taken Emma and Snow with him, but since she didn't, he had Cora as a plan B). He managed to get the full scoop on what was going on with Rumple in Storybrook, managed to hurt Rumple by taking Belle away from him, then tracked him to a distant city in a strange world, where he managed to find out exactly where Rumple would be, and carried out his plan to stab him with the poisoned hook. And then he survived the whole thing. He's actually one of the more successful villains on the show because his failure wasn't to do with any screw-up on his part and required the heroes to do something really extraordinary that they now claim was a mistake. I don't think any other villain's plan has gone so closely to what it was intended to do, and then he was smart enough to cut his losses when that plan didn't work rather than coming up with yet another dumb plan (like Zelena).

[KingOfHearts]

Making Edgy Queen the straight up villain was a poor choice, imo. If she were truly unhinged, she would be murdering heroes left and right. The whole splitting thing is flawed by design. However, if the writers had to do it, there were about a hundred other ways to approach it with some nuance intact. Their best bet was aiming straight for the "maybe EQ wasn't the monster" concept. Then you could look back at the show and say, "Wow, the characters were blaming EQ, but it was really Regina all this time!" In order for EQ to be threatening, she needs an emotional motive. Getting Snow's heart is about avenging Daniel, and that originated from Regina, not EQ.

My head canon is that EQ is the stronger side of Regina. She's not afraid to speak her mind, wear whatever she wants, and do whatever is required. Regina, on the other hand, is the side that's obsessed with self image and wants everyone to love her.  She's afraid of being herself because she is so desperate for approval.

Edited October 31, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Making Edgy Queen the straight up villain was a poor choice, imo. If she were truly unhinged, she would be murdering heroes left and right. The whole splitting thing is flawed by design. However, if the writers had to do it, there were about a hundred other ways to approach it with some nuance intact. Their best bet was aiming straight for the "maybe EQ wasn't the monster" concept. Then you could look back at the show and say, "Wow, the characters were blaming EQ, but it was really Regina all this time!" In order for EQ to be threatening, she needs an emotional motive. Getting Snow's heart is about avenging Daniel, and that originated from Regina, not EQ.

My head canon is that EQ is the stronger side of Regina. She's not afraid to speak her mind, wear whatever she wants, and do whatever is required. Regina, on the other hand, is the side that's obsessed with self image and wants everyone to love her.  She's afraid of being herself because she is so desperate for approval.

The most EQ has done so far is a random hook up with Rumple.  Otherwise, it's been laughable 'taunts' and the same nonsense with Snow.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Let's see...

In Episode 2, The Evil Queen got Regina to kill someone.  Oh no.  Oh well, it had zero effect and was never mentioned again.

In Episode 3, The Evil Queen tried to get Emma's "first save" killed.  Oops, didn't work.  Not trying that again.

In Episode 4, The Evil Queen doesn't do anything except spring Hyde free and he dies.

In Episode 5, The Evil Queen impersonates Archie and exposes Emma's secret and then spends some time at the spa.  Darn, it brought that dang Charming family even closer together.

In Episode 6, The Evil Queen tries to make Henry mad at Hook and then throws herself at Rumple.  Oops, they bonded instead.

I can't believe we're SIX episodes into Season 6 and the big episode ender is The Evil Queen wants Snow White's heart.

Oh what a revelation, we already knew this back in S1.

[KingOfHearts]

While S6 and 4B have very similar plots, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 4B has an edge over the other. For one, the plethora of characters introduced were more engaging. (Especially Cruella and Ursula.) The elements they came with were more creative. Secondly, the sense of urgency was much greater. There was more tension and buildup. I found myself asking "What's going to happen?" more then than I do now. While the eggnapper plot was atrocious, I actually felt sorry for Maleficent and disappointed with Snowing. Now, with the whole secrets/lies go-around, I blame the man behind the curtain more than I do the characters themselves. It's just so ridiculous.

4B wasn't much better, but other than the Cinderella episode, S6 has been very low quality. Emma's struggle with darkness was more believable than a random death prophecy popping out of nowhere. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

58 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Secondly, the sense of urgency was much greater.

There actually was a sense of urgency. There was a villain who had a stated goal that he was taking steps toward from the start, and we learned more about those steps early on. Rumple came to town with the Queens, got the dagger back from Belle, sicced Maleficent on the Charmings, and kidnapped and tortured Pinocchio -- and I think it was in as many episodes as we've had so far this season. This season, Rumple has made vague threats/comments about his unborn son, but that's six months, at least, from being a real issue. The Evil Queen has flounced around town, bringing the heroes closer together, and taken time out for a spa day.

If your villain is spending an episode getting a manicure, someone is doing something wrong. Either the villain doesn't have a goal or the heroes aren't doing anything to stop the villain, and either way, there's no urgency.

Meanwhile, the in-episode villains are dispatched so easily. The Count of Monte Cristo was taken out. The Evil Stepmother is picking up trash. Jekyll and Hyde are dead. Liam got over his desire for revenge against Killian (and he didn't really do much other than kidnap Hook and Henry and leave them alone for a long chat). There's been no sense of jeopardy for our heroes because everything has been easily resolved. That's a problem with the villain-of-the-week format. If it's resolved in one episode, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

And, while the plotting in 4B made little sense, and it had the Mother of all Retcons in the eggbaby stuff and in the Zelena as Marian thing, it wasn't continuity issue upon continuity issue, with none of the timelines adding up and none of the motives really working.

[Free]

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

While S6 and 4B have very similar plots, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 4B has an edge over the other. For one, the plethora of characters introduced were more engaging. (Especially Cruella and Ursula.) The elements they came with were more creative. Secondly, the sense of urgency was much greater. There was more tension and buildup. I found myself asking "What's going to happen?" more then than I do now. While the eggnapper plot was atrocious, I actually felt sorry for Maleficent and disappointed with Snowing. Now, with the whole secrets/lies go-around, I blame the man behind the curtain more than I do the characters themselves. It's just so ridiculous.

4B wasn't much better, but other than the Cinderella episode, S6 has been very low quality. Emma's struggle with darkness was more believable than a random death prophecy popping out of nowhere. 

Even without that disappointing Dark Swan twist, at least that was a focal point before it became messy.  Emma barely even cares, the same goes for the 'villains'.

[Curio]

Nothing can top the suckitude of how terrible 4B is for me. I nearly quit the show during that season, and it all began with "Heroes and Villains." While there might have been more of a sense of urgency compared to what's happening right now, it was all pointless urgency because the entire foundation of that season was set up on a completely asinine and ultimately disproven concept Regina made up out of thin air, and everyone blindly believed Regina and dropped everything to help her without once questioning her incorrect theory. At least in Season 6 right now, there's a very clear end goal they're trying to avoid, and Emma fighting the hooded figure is a strong visual to remind the viewer of what we're building up towards. Yes, we all know Emma won't die, but at least I know exactly what's at stake. In 4B, "filling Emma's heart with darkness" was such a vague threat that I couldn't take it seriously. What does that even mean? Is it metaphorical? Is it literal? It seemed so inconsequential at the time.

4B was just a complete mess where the overarching plot was this nonsensical idea that everyone needed to give Regina a happy ending because an inanimate object was plotting against her, and apparently everyone believed the Author had it out for Regina, but then it was revealed that the Author loved Regina, and Emma had a lobotomy and became Regina's best friend off screen between 4A and 4B without ever mentioning the Graham elephant in the room that had been brought up a few episodes earlier, and everyone assumed Regina's incorrect idea that villains never get happy endings was true, but then they went and disproved that in the Ursula episode with Hook, but no one bothered to remember Ursula's lesson and they kept on believing Regina's faulty idea, and the entire author plot was a waste of time because Regina came to the conclusion that her life sucks because she makes it suck anyways, not to mention all of the retconning around the eggnapping and shoehorning Lily into present day, and then we ended the whole season in an alternate universe where no one took any valuable lessons away from it, Regina never made the connection that what she was experiencing was exactly what she put Snow through all those years and never once apologized to Snow about it, and the finale ultimately ended with Emma sacrificing herself because Regina "worked too hard," even though that entire season Regina was shown to be taking the easy way out the whole time.

Sorry, I'm still not over how awful 4B is. Season 6A could end with Emma shrugging and saying, "Oh wow, I guess I can use the shears to separate myself but still consider myself a Savior! What a concept," or Regina saying, "Oh wow, I guess I can accept my evil half of me and reintegrate," and it'll still be lightyears ahead of 4B.

[Rumsy4]

I'm with you, @Curio. 4B was the worst half-season of the Show. I too almost quit (well, I've come close every "B" arc since season 2). While 6A has been bland and sort of aimless, I don't hate it.

[Mathius]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm with you, @Curio. 4B was the worst half-season of the Show. I too almost quit (well, I've come close every "B" arc since season 2).

Same with me, save for 5B, which I enjoyed more than 5A....the finale excluded, of course.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

At least in Season 6 right now, there's a very clear end goal they're trying to avoid, and Emma fighting the hooded figure is a strong visual to remind the viewer of what we're building up towards. Yes, we all know Emma won't die, but at least I know exactly what's at stake. In 4B, "filling Emma's heart with darkness" was such a vague threat that I couldn't take it seriously. What does that even mean? Is it metaphorical? Is it literal? It seemed so inconsequential at the time.

I kind of disagree here. We know so little about Emma's prophecy, and the circumstances surrounding it are vague. Why does it suddenly matter? Why is anyone fearing death after all the resurrections? Rumple had his own death prophecy and he got around it. For all we know, Emma gets stabbed and returns to the Dark One vault because of contrived DO residue. There are no stakes because death is relative. Emma's darkness, OTOH, had consequences. It was more viable to happen. That setup gave us an entire season of angst. There's no way she would be dead for that long.

I love how the characters are more concerned about who is under the cloak than how/why Emma is fated to die in the first place. Even they don't seem to care much about this plot. (Except Emma herself.)

Edited November 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

39 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma's darkness, OTOH, had consequences. It was more viable to happen. That setup gave us an entire season of angst. 

 

I think why I could never get on board the whole "fill Emma's heart with darkness" plot in 4B is because everyone has a little darkness in them. Everyone struggles with good moments and bad moments in life. Even Emma, who apparently had darkness sucked out of her as an infant, still has some darkness inside her as an adult. So I couldn't be afraid of a vague threat where it basically described what most people go through every day. Now, if they phrased it differently and said they wanted to make Emma the new Dark One right off the bat in 4x12 that would have been different, but that wasn't what they were hinting at during the time 4B aired. It sounded like this for most of the season: "Emma Swan, your heart measures at 89% goodness and 11% darkness. By the time we're through with you, it'll be 60% goodness and 40% darkness! Muahahaha!" It's probably a case where the writers knew they were going to turn Emma into a Dark One, but they didn't want to reveal their cards to the audience right away, so they created the vague threat "fill her heart with darkness" to avoid spilling their secret. But the problem is that when the audience doesn't know what the writers know, that vague threat ends up being meaningless until the final reveal.

[Mathius]

38 minutes ago, Curio said:

Even Emma, who apparently had darkness sucked out of her as an infant, still has some darkness inside her as an adult.

Right.  The eggnapping was entirely useless, because it was meant to get rid of her "potential for darkness", but the Apprentice immediately warned that potential for darkness would return if Emma was not raised properly.  And guess what, that's exactly what happened, since the first episode of 4x12 had Chernabog, a creature who goes after people with the greatest potential for darkness in them, going after Emma.  It makes the current plot even more stupid - how was the point of 6x02 and 6x04 - that darkness can grow back inside you even after you split it from yourself - supposed to be a shock to any of the characters when they should have already known that from the failure of the eggnapping incident?  Gaaaah!  TS, TW!

Edited November 1, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

I think the real danger was that since Emma was such a powerful source of good as the Savior, she could be equally powerful as a villain.

[YaddaYadda]

I've been wondering if the writers didn't decide to change gears with the whole Evil Queen/Regina. The more episodes pass, the more I feel like they might have had to scale down on that.

It's just a feeling, but I was expecting something entirely different, and I'm not talking about screentime or anything like that. 

[Camera One]

I was watching some clips of "Aladdin" and it feels like the animated cartoon has better fleshed out and more likeable characters than this show, where Aladdin and Jasmine's characterizations have been paper-thin and unappealing.  Maybe they should have done an episode flashing back to Jasmine only so we could see where she's coming from, and then a separate flashback for Aladdin to see his POV.  I think a Find Anna type format where only one of them is in Storybrooke to begin with might have been better.  Aladdin should probably be the one in Storybrooke (arrived from the Land of Untold Stories) if he's supposed to have parallels with Emma.  I just realized they've also turned a non-magical character into a magical one.  The Writers needed to decide... in what way would Aladdin bring out aspects of Emma's character that Elsa hadn't already?  I suppose they were intending Emma to take the mentor role this time?  Now that Aladdin and Jasmine are together in Storybrooke already, what's there to look forward to?  Are we supposed to care about Agrabah?  If they had developed Jasmine's relationship with her father first, then maybe we might care more.  The whole setup was just so poorly thought out.  Between The Evil Queen and Aladdin/Jasmine and Untold Story Of The Week and Belle-Baby, it's all over the place and doesn't pull together as a cohesive whole.  I almost wish for the half-season one-and-done arcs now.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Exactly--why should we care about Agrabah, exactly? Or for a romance between Jasmine and Aladdin? I feel like they are relying on the popularity of the movie/TV series, and are simply taking it for granted that the audience will connect to this story. 

The writers should have show Aladdin and Jasmine working seperately and together being the savior/princess who cared about the common man. We've seen nothing of how Aladdin ended up with the savior/shakes and decided to change his fate. Maybe they're planning to do that in a separate flashback later, but right now, that story isn't working.

I'm also not sure if Emma should be convincing Aladdin to help Jasmine save Agrabah. It's almost like she is justifying her decision to remain the savior by convincing Aladdin be the savior again.

[Camera One]

If Rumple doesn't want The Evil Queen to go into his Shop, why not just put a protection spell to keep her out?  Why wasn't he around to steal The Important Shears last episode?  Why didn't The Evil Queen just zip over to the school or the hospital to pull out Snow's heart right away?  I can't buy any of it.

[maryle]

I think this season show they cannot pace and plan for 2 or  to tree main storyline parallel with each other.

Season one was basically one classic Storyline using the flash back as a tool. And, frozen had better coherence because some people from Disney really oversight the plot.

The Savior mythology using Aladdin era as playground have potential. But, we don't get the good story just a new magical object and angst for Emma. It still could become better but I won't hold my breath. 

2) we never learned why Hyde's brought all this people with him.

3 ) the EQ is just a cartoon villain and it is really hard to swallow that she will be this EQ frozen in time where she was obsess with Snow white . The logic will be that she was a product of the actual Regina who is suppose to be closer to Snow than Emma.  

4) Rumple story is just a cheap soap. They really lost the potential of the Rumple as mastermind. He just become pathetic at this point.

 

For me 3b was the beginning of the end  and I never been back to enjoying the show as a whole.

 4b was just the confirmation of my disinterest for Once as a whole.

Season 5 I begin to just care for a little part of the show and not the  main storyline anymore.  6 is just a confirmation that they can wrap up the story and I won't miss the show Once.

Edited November 2, 2016 by maryle

[Free]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I've been wondering if the writers didn't decide to change gears with the whole Evil Queen/Regina. The more episodes pass, the more I feel like they might have had to scale down on that.

It's just a feeling, but I was expecting something entirely different, and I'm not talking about screentime or anything like that. 

Not the first time, S5, especially 5a reeked of it.

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

 I almost wish for the half-season one-and-done arcs now.

This season really is proving that the half-season arc format was never truly the problem, the problem has always been A&E's ADD-style writing.

People complained that 3B, 4B, 5A and 5B were packed with way too much stuff that went by too quickly to be effective, and that they would have worked better as full seasons.  But now, we see that a full season is also packed with way too much stuff that's going by too quickly to be effective. Season 2, though it ended up having a separate A and B half, was made as a full season, and it actually developed the same problem during 2B.  It's pretty clear that Season 1 had more time, planning, and help from Damon Lindelof put into it and that something like it is never gonna come again.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

49 minutes ago, Mathius said:

This season really is proving that the half-season arc format was never truly the problem, the problem has always been A&E's ADD-style writing.

I was going to say that you can't entirely blame the ADD because things aren't properly set up to begin with, so it's not just as though they start writing, then come up with a shiny new idea and drop what they were doing in mid-stream, but then the ADD may manifest in the lack of development if they come up with stuff in a brainstorming session and just run without it without taking the time to really think it through. Most of their storylines would have benefited from additional thinking and development before they even started writing, and then really digging into the material to properly build it and set it up, then work with it fully, and then let the development move things organically into the next thing. Instead, it comes across like they just had a great idea and threw it into a script without giving it any additional thought.

I also feel like they don't bother to think about the characters' personal arcs, aside from the plot. Even if they don't know that two seasons later they're going to be dealing with Maleficent or Brave, or whatever, they should have an idea of where the main characters and their relationships are going. Back when they got Hook and Emma together, they should have been thinking of the ramifications of that relationship, so they'd know that they were going to figure out how that affected Henry. That was the time to start laying the groundwork for whatever future relationship Hook and Henry were going to have if Emma and Hook got serious. That wouldn't have pinned them down entirely, because characters grow and change, but when Emma and Hook first started dating, they had a chance to show how Henry reacted, how Hook tried to deal with him, and what their interactions were like then. That would have given them something to work with now that they are serious and moving in together, so all Henry's animosity toward Hook would have made more sense. Then again, it would have been hard for the "you don't care about this family" attitude to make sense after Hook sacrificed his life for them multiple times.

As for 4B vs. 6, really, it's like comparing rotten Granny Smiths to rotten Galas. They're both awful in different ways, with the same source of the rot. 4B had one outrageously stupid plot that had some interesting ideas in it but that was badly executed, and it had another plot that had a lot of potential but had mixed results in execution, with some of it being really good and some of it being awful, but there was still forward momentum and some good character moments. 6 so far has the Evil Queen stuff, which is a bad idea poorly executed, and it has the Savior stuff, which is underdeveloped but gives some good character moments, and it has the Untold Stories stuff, which is scattershot, with some good stuff and some awful stuff, but it's all lacking any kind of foundation. There's nothing really holding it all together. As awful as 4B was, it did at least have the strong central thread of the Author stuff that drove everything else. They seem to be trying to do the same thing with the Savior plot, but it's not working the same way as the Author plot did to unify all the disparate story lines. It only relates to the Untold Stories stuff in that Hyde was the source of info and Jasmine was looking for Savior Aladdin, and it doesn't relate to the Evil Queen stuff at all. The Evil Queen is mostly removed from everything else.

[KingOfHearts]

If the heroes were a bit nicer to other people, they wouldn't have so many problems. I don't understand why Hook is the only one reach out to Belle, or why no one wants to extend an olive branch to Zelena for Pistachio's sake. They come off as very self centered. It's only when the plot needs it that they show compassion to anyone else.

[YaddaYadda]

51 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

They come off as very self centered.

Especially when they have flashbacks about how living a good life is the best revenge, but there are villages being mowed down, but let's go drink wine, the bad stuff can't touch us because we're magically protected type of thing.

I don't really understand why Regina isn't reaching out to Zelena. It's like she completely wrote her off.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I don't really understand why Regina isn't reaching out to Zelena. It's like she completely wrote her off.

Cora should totally haunt Regina from the grave for that one. She was willing to go to hell as long as her daughters could be together, and Regina did nothing with it. She's still patronizing her. I understand Snow, Charming, and Emma having a strong distaste for Zelena since she kidnapped Snowflake. But Regina doesn't really have an excuse for being distant. She doesn't really seem to care too much about Pistachio. I'm sure Robin would love to know that Regina stood idly by while the woman who raped him and the Evil Queen were teaching his daughter to be wicked.

[Rumsy4]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm sure Robin would love to know that Regina stood idly by while the woman who raped him and the Evil Queen were teaching his daughter to be wicked.

OMG 

[Curio]

52 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm sure Robin would love to know that Regina stood idly by while the woman who raped him and the Evil Queen were teaching his daughter to be wicked.

Wow, I never even thought about that. The baby is even named Robin. You'd think Regina would feel an obligation to her recently deceased True Love to watch over his child, but it's like Regina doesn't even care. Has Regina reached out to Roland at all? The Evil Queen half of Regina seems to care about baby Robin, but "good" Regina isn't even attempting to reach out. Isn't Regina supposed to be the one who likes kids, not the Evil Queen? Why are those roles reversed? Regina sent Zelena away in a tornado so she and Robin could keep Pistachio for themselves, and now she doesn't even care to see the baby. Regina made a huge fuss about being BFFs with Zelena in the Underworld, and now she couldn't care less about seeing Zelena. (Hades said it best, "You've been Zelena's doting sister for all of, what, three hours?") This is just a continuation of Regina never being happy even when she has the things around her that should make her happy. It's like when she thought the world was ending when she was separated from Henry in Season 3, but in Season 4, having Henry around wasn't enough to make her happy.

[Camera One]

One can also interpret that as Regina trusting Zelena not to hurt the baby.  She has tried to separate Zelena and the baby before and it was clearly not the way.  It is weird how she hasn't tried to win Zelena back, but maybe she figures it's fruitless.  Last episode, Regina was busy helping Emma to find Aladdin.  The episode before that, Regina was busy trying to get the elixir to destroy The Evil Queen.  The Writers clearly don't know what to do with Zelena, but I'm personally glad we haven't had to sit through more whiny conversations that she might have had with Regina.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The Writers clearly don't know what to do with Zelena, but I'm personally glad we haven't had to sit through more whiny conversations that she might have had with Regina.

 

I was actually really looking forward to the possibility of Regina and Zelena rooming together in the mansion, but that idea went in and out the door in 2 minutes. It's just not the same kind of vibe between the Evil Queen and Zelena.

[Camera One]

Yeah, I would have been interested in the normal everyday struggles of them co-existing from the little bit we saw in the season premiere.  But by reverting Zelena, basically, all we'll get are endless tirades about how Regina doesn't appreciate her while The Evil Queen does blah blah blah.  I feel most of the Zelena/Evil Queen scenes are meant to give The Evil Queen some screentime to shine, so she's not constantly talking to herself or a Mirror.

[Camera One]

The hollow words of the heroes are so pointless and I am sick of the empty "inspirational" dialogue.  In this episode alone, we got Hook telling Henry that the visions won't come true with a "I promise you that".  And Snow tells The Evil Queen to "Try all you want, but nothing you do will ever tear this family apart."  Just like 5B's declaration that they would defeat Hades, even though the heroes were simply lucky that Zelena saw the light and killed him.  

Edited November 4, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

They've been lucky so many times. In S1, Regina sabotaged her own curse by trying to poison Emma. In 3B, they were lucky Regina could use light magic. In 4A, Ingrid redeemed herself last minute. In 4B, Henry just so happened to be unaffected by Isaac's Author powers. Maybe Snow's "just have hope" philosophy actually works in this universe. (Except when the heroes actually have to work towards their goal. Like 2A, 3A, and 5A.)

[Mathius]

They got lucky in 5A too, with Dark Hook seeing the light at the last minute and sacrificing himself ala Ingrid.

[Camera One]

Plot points are supposed to provide opportunities to reveal and dig deeper into the characters.  The two arcs in Season 5 were new situations which had new areas of potential (despite not living up to it).  The Evil Queen being fixated on Snow's heart - again - has no benefit to Snow's characterization, so basically it's just another showcase for The Evil Queen going all crazy town.  Regina, Emma, Hook, etc. trying to stop her from doing this doesn't develop their characters either.  So to me, this season fails because it's the first one where there's no potential (last time this came close was 4B but there was still Maleficent and Cruella... they sapped all potential out of Aladdin and Jasmine in "Street Rats").  

[Souris]

I didn't watch the last ep. I certainly won't watch A&E's latest Emma/Regina isolation adventure this Sunday.

I think I may be done with the show.

[RadioGirl27]

14 hours ago, Souris said:

I didn't watch the last ep. I certainly won't watch A&E's latest Emma/Regina isolation adventure this Sunday.

I think I may be done with the show.

?

The last one wasn't too bad, give it a try. But I agree about the next one. It sound terrible.

Anyway, I hope you don't leave the forum. 

[Camera One]

Rewatching a bit of Aladdin, I think the blandness of Aladdin and Jasmine are due to the "Once" versions lacking even the minimal character motivations of the animated versions.  Aladdin should have issues of self-worth, feeling like he was a letdown to his mother who died, feeling trapped in his existence of poverty with the false assumption that life as a Prince would be easier... in the movie, that's why he lies to Jasmine about his true background.  Very little of that came through in "Street Rats".  Meanwhile, Jasmine felt trapped by convention and yearned to see the world outside of the palace walls, wanting to demonstrate that she was more than a prize to be won, yet on "Once", she just seems to expect Aladdin to solve all her problems (which was actually the opposite of what she was telling Snow in the classroom about the Princess who didn't step up).  Their sole purpose has been to reveal the Shears of Destiny, and they are no more important or relevant to the current plot than any other guest character.  

[KingOfHearts]

The writers missed the point of Aladdin, just like they did with Brave. The characters act nothing like their counterparts. (With Jafar the notable exception.) If they wanted their own unique twist, then that would have been fine if they had a strong idea. But what we got was extremely weak. It didn't need to be Aladdin. It could have been [insert prince/princess fairy tale here].

Edited November 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was just thinking... if Snow and Charming had this Sleeping Curse happen to them in the Season 6 premiere... nothing much would have been different.  It's not like they actually had a storyline together, aside from the tease that David was lying to Snow about pursuing the coin.  Heck, this episode could have completely replaced The Count of Monte Cristo episode, with no difference, since nothing from that episode ended up becoming significant, and maybe The Evil Queen would look less like an idiot since she hasn't actually accomplished anything.  Frankly, it's pathetic that this was already the *seventh* episode of this season.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

Another downer side effect of the Aladdin/Jasmine storyline is that it makes me think of Robin Williams and how much he is missed. That's on top of how lame the story itself seems to be.

[Shanna Marie]

The Aladdin treatment further supports my comments from during the summer about how most of the guest characters now are more "name drops" than really delving into the source material. They have guest characters to introduce a former Savior, the concept of the shears, and someone who would know about him and be looking for him, and they stuck the names "Aladdin" and "Jasmine" on them and put their backstory in that setting, but unless something big happens later, you could have stuck just about any names on them without it changing the story at all. This Aladdin is a thief, but he's not the same kind of thief as Aladdin in the movie, and he's not motivated by the same things as his movie counterpart -- and not in a twisty way, where there's an angle that might have been hinted at but not addressed in the movie or in a "here's what was really going on" way. This Jasmine is a princess, but she's not motivated by the same things as her movie counterpart. She's not even consistent with what she, herself, says.

They did a little better with Nemo, since they used his backstory and extrapolated where he might have gone and what he might have done afterward, and it mattered to the story that he was a submarine captain, since he was interacting with Hook, a lifelong sailor, and it seems like there must be some salt water in the Jones family bloodline (I wonder, was Brennan at all involved in sailing before the voyage in which he abandoned his sons?). With the Cinderella episode, they did do a bit of behind-the-scenes stuff, showing what went on with one of the stepsisters, plus did some sequel to the familiar story. I guess it mattered a lot to the plot that Jekyll and Hyde were Jekyll and Hyde, but then there was the Count of Monte Cristo, where they just stuck a name on a character, based on having read maybe the back cover of a Cliff's Notes or the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry. He could have been anyone who had an urge for revenge, and it wouldn't have changed the story one bit.

[Camera One]

I wonder if with Aladdin and Jasmine, it is a case of dragging it out since they want to do a multi-episode backstory.  Plus unlike the others, they were making large-scale changes to the story, which they are clearly not good at.  As you suggested, it seems more a case of imposing something else (Savior, Shears) onto Aladdin rather than starting with the source and finding conflicts that would naturally spring from the source characters and stories.   At least they contained more (albeit random Easter-egg variety) elements of the Aladdin tale compared to The Count of Monte Cristo, which was solely name-only.  

The fact that Jasmine contradicted herself suggests a lack of planning with the whole Aladdin arc.  It is very difficult to tell with these Writers whether something was because of unexpected changes, or if something was planned out that way all along, since inconsistencies, lack of worldbuilding and lack of interest in characterization are the norm.

Nemo might have been easier since they were telling "what happened next", though I don't think they did that good a job of making the character shift convincing (his remorse was told after the fact and had already happened... we never got to see the realization or the process).  Cinderella was "what happened simultaneously" which was also a bit easier, though they again didn't do that great of job of thinking about how Cinderella would really have acted after seeing her Fairy Godmother murdered, or finding out her Evil Stepmother might be back in town.  

Edited November 12, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

15 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Nemo might have been easier since they were telling "what happened next", though I don't think they did that good a job of making the character shift convincing (his remorse was told after the fact and had already happened... we never got to see the realization or the process).

I kind of give them a pass with that because Nemo was who Hook was when he was introduced in season 2. Their stories align perfectly, with the vengeance for the family that had been killed, realizing that killing the enemy added nothing to their lives and then trying to change because they found something to live for. Where Hook is now is where Nemo was when they met in the flashbacks. It just would have been rehashing the story, and an after episode thread filled with how it was a waste of time because Nemo and Hook are exactly the same.

[Camera One]

That's true Hook and Nemo are very similar, though one difference to me is that Hook was avenging the death of a specific person by hunting down Rumple, whereas Nemo was taking revenge on the entire nation of men.  I wouldn't have wanted to see a retread, but for someone who read the book, it creates a disconnect when watching a story where this formerly murderous character is suddenly a remorseful person.  It would be like if they brought on Jafar and he was already completely sorry for what he did to Aladdin and he was running an orphanage to help parent-less children.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

So, Robin is coming back, but so far there's been zero lead up to it. And the EQ is making out with Rumple without a care. Does this mean one part of Regina (the part of her that apparently always wanted to jump Rumple) never really cared about Robin? But the boring half of Regina hasn't been grieving Robin either. She hasn't mentioned him once after the first episode. Grief can be manifested in different ways, but this is a TV show. Not real life. That poor guy is so forgotten by the writers, I'm really confused why they're bringing him back. 

[Camera One]

The discussion in the episode thread made me wonder... how many "I need you to steal this for me" subplots have we had in the history of this show?

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I get that they have a commitment to the network to produce 22 episodes, so they don't really have the luxury of just producing 3 really good ones. But this season so far has seemed even more self-indulgent than usual. The whole idea behind The Evil Queen and Regina being 2 different people just isn't working, and there's an awful lot of filler.  This episode in particular really got us nowhere. They need to do a better job of mapping out stories that can last 9-10 episodes without this much filler. 

What's really irritating is that if they have to have "filler" episodes like this why can't they deliver what's so painfully missing from this show? Just ordinary scenes where the characters have a chance to take a breath. For a "couple' Emma and Hook have spent remarkably little time together onscreen. It's always Emma and Regina off on an adventure and Hook left behind. Why? Don't the writers know the audience wants more of Emma and Hook together? Why couldn't it have been Emma and Hook trapped behind the mirror? Maybe even contemplating staying there.  They'd have been safe, they could still "see" their friends and they'd finally get to spend some quality time together, just the two of them.

I'd also like to know if A&E are watching the sagging ratings and have any kind of end-game in mind. Every time I hear them interviewed they carry on as if they think the show can just go on forever in its current format. "There are so many stories to tell!" Seems to me like they ran out of them.

Because this is the designated SQ episode of the arc, and this is their consolation prize.  CS as canon couple usually gets one heart-felt solo scene per episode.  Emma and Snow, and Emma and David, evidently gets neither... if anyone is due an adventure, it's them.

I agree that "there's so many stories to tell" is ridiculous when they insist on spinning the hamster wheel telling the exact same ones ad nauseum.

And I definitely agree that if we need to have filler, there could be much more satisfying filler they could produce.  Heck, I'd rather see an episode devoted to each of the dwarves.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

The discussion in the episode thread made me wonder... how many "I need you to steal this for me" subplots have we had in the history of this show?

Too many times to count. There's apparently been some fierce competition when it has come to thievery. Robin, Will and Aladdin have all been big names in the business.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about where we're normally at, eight episodes into an arc.

Season 2: "Into The Deep"... David contacts Mary Margaret in the fire room.  One more episode before Snow and Emma come home.

3A: "Think Lovely Thoughts"... Peter Pan was just about to follow-through on his big plan, and we finally learned his backstory.  One more episode left in Neverland.

3B: "A Curious Thing"... we found out the origins of the latest Curse.  The next episode would be the birth of the baby and Zelena would be able to bring her plan to fruition.

4A: "Smash The Mirror"... we had already gotten The Snow Queen's origin story the episode before, and we find out how she got to the World Without Magic and how Elsa got into the urn.  We see the ramifications of Shattered Sight while it is set off at the end of this episode.

4B: "Lily"... road trip from our favorite duo... ok, getting off track here.  The whole Lily being Maleficent's daughter arc reaches a climax as Emma fights Adult Lily.  The big "surprise" for Robin with Zelena being Marian and Zelena being preggers.

5A: "Birth"... Merlin's plan is about to come to fruition, but the plan is ruined.  Hook is mortally wounded, and he becomes The Dark One.

5B: "Sisters"...  Zelena and Regina reconciles for the first time, and there's a chance that Zelena's relationship with Hades might be their way out.  One more episode left in the Underworld.

6A: "I'll Be Your Mirror"... The Evil Queen causes problems but everything is reset by the end of the episode.  Meanwhile, Henry has relationship problems, Snow and Charming eat breakfast and sleep, Emma and Regina look at a bunch of mirrors and big cliffhanger, Rumple is weely weely mad at Zelena.  Who the hell knows what stunt The Evil Queen will pull next week because she has no long-term goals, and they are no closer to defeating her.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to get A&E to do a full-season arc... hopefully, they realize that it's best to let them play with their shiny toys for half a season and then get some new toys in the second half.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Camera One