A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

Between the two Merida episodes, I much preferred "The Bear King" despite being stand-alone.  As many people suggested, the point could have been to introduce that method of communicating with the dead.  The first Merida episode did nothing for Belle, despite that being her centric.  And if we're talking about Merida's own character development, they basically told the same story twice.  The first episode made her into an abrasive whiny kidnapper.

I think the biggest weakness of 5A was the crap about Rumple having a pure heart and Merida making him brave again.  What would have been a more natural buildup to Rumple's betrayal at the end of 5A, would be to show Rumple struggling to live without magic, to live without that type of power over others.   But clearly, the Writers seemed to be at a loss for how to link Rumple to the main Excalibur plot; or maybe they just looked at their big "twist" of Rumple being evil again at the end of the arc.

There were so many other things which would have been a better use of time than Merida and making Rumple brave:
- more Merlin and worldbuilding about the Dark One, Nimue, The Author, The Apprentice, the Theatre Appearance, the Arthur prophesy, Excalibur, The Dagger, etc. such that these elements would not become a wave of contradiction.  Maybe make Merlin's Obi-wan Kinobe message to find Nimue actually make sense or just cut it out
- actual interaction between Emma and her parents in both flashback and present-day
- as mentioned above, showing Rumple struggling with life without magic and power
- perhaps resolving the Camelot plot properly, or making Lancelot appearance worth it? 
- deal with the fallout of an entire kingdom arriving in Storybrooke present-day?
- maybe actually dealing with Robin and Regina and the baby situation?  Or more interestingly, having Regina properly deal with Percival and starting her process of making up for hurting innocent people?
- heck, I would rather have seen an episode of Granny and Grumpy figuring out how to get the diner up and running.  Maybe giving Granny a scene with Red since they were finally together in the same realm?

Edited August 19, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

they could have used Lancelot instead of Merida for the Rumple plot. Lancelot already had ties to the canvas. Imagine an episode 5x06 with him instead of Merida. Lancelot goes off to the Lady of the Lake, and...

There was the sanding issue, Merlin's death that no one really has talked about, the whole Dark Ones plot was so...

And like it was mentioned up thread, I would have loved to see Rumple's struggle as a regular man, without magic. I would imagine it would have been stressful for him to live like that for the first time in centuries. Here he is, having a chance at a new life, and he is kidnapped by the new Dark One.

All the plots from Camelot were left hanging. I don't even understand how the top part of Excalibur is gone, but the dagger remains. How does make any sense? 

I would have liked to see Percival in the UW tbh. Here he is, deal with him. Knowing this show, he would likely have been shoved in the River of Lost Souls instead.

[Camera One]

 I don't even understand how the top part of Excalibur is gone, but the dagger remains. How does make any sense?

Two quotes come to mind here; hopefully they provide healing.

From Adam: "It allows you the viewer to take what's on camera and connect the dots in your head. Fun!"

From Rumple: "Your questions are pointless."

[Camera One]

Began my rewatch of 5B with my friend who is visiting from out of town, but there was only time for the first episode.  She completely forgot what was happening except that Hook died, and asked why Rumple went with them.  I actually liked this episode the first time around, and I still liked it overall.  But in this case, knowing what happens later in the season really put a damper on the feel-good resolution of the ending.  I was thinking how eventually the unfinished business became a totally contradictory mess... no sense or justice, with the likes of Cora entering the Light or retconned Liam the crew murderer, Aunt Em thrown into the river of souls, etc.  Regina made a comment near the end where it seemed like she was going to make amends to some of her victims, and now we know she doesn't.  The "heroes" declaration that they could save every soul in the Underworld now sounded hollow and disingenuous, knowing they just left, achieving very little of Operation Firebird.  The one scene that did make more sense on rewatch was when Hades brought up Zelena to Cora.  Though it still makes no sense why it was so important for Regina to leave.  If anything, Hades should have trapped Regina as a gift to Zelena.

I'm so glad they deleted the scene with Regina, Henry and Robin at the docks, which was completely unnecessary.

[sharky]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking how eventually the unfinished business became a totally contradictory mess... no sense or justice, with the likes of Cora entering the Light or retconned Liam the crew murderer, Aunt Em thrown into the river of souls, etc.

This. It's like they were trying to do their "twist you never saw coming!" for a whole season but each time, they destroyed a character they had created in the process. Liam's back story especially messed things up. I loved the flashbacks with Hook as a slave on the ship because it made alot of sense when you consider who he became. And I loved seeing the devotion these two brothers had for each other. But then they butchered Liam's character just for unnecessary drama. Same with Milah. There was so much potential there. Hook could see her in the Underworld and help her move on. Emma could thank Milah for her influence on her life. Milah could finally see her son again. But "twist you never saw coming" totally destroyed all that.

Of course, that brings up a whole other issue about them forgetting about character traits they gave their characters seasons earlier. It's one thing to develop a character and not have that person be the same person we saw two seasons ago. But there's a difference between strategy and butchering.

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

 Though it still makes no sense why it was so important for Regina to leave.  

Yes, this. They made it look like Regina was going to be the "Savior" in the UW. She killed a lot of people, she would be the unfinished business of a lot of people, but in the end, she helped a total of 2 people move on from the UW, her parents.

Meanwhile, Hook actually had his brother, an entire ship crew move on, and Megara was able to do the same because he freed her. That's a lot of minutes that ticked by because of him. Aside from possibly Henry and whatever he wrote for the people with unfinished business, Hook is the one who helped the most people move on from the UW.

Their Regina is also a Savior fake outs because she farted out light magic once, and you know, her blood was oh so special in the AU, and she is feared by Hades for a reason we never find out are so eye roll inducing. I hope we'll be completely through with that once they do their

Spoiler

Savior mythology

.

[Curio]

I was taking a look at the Season 5 screen time charts, and I'm sorry...but remind me again how Season 5 was "Once Upon a Hook"?

I really hope that when the writers get rid of the split-season A/B structure in Season 6, they'll pull away from making the A-arc more Emma focused and the B-arc more Regina focused. I don't know why they decided to go down that route for so many seasons, but it limits the storytelling process when you force yourself into boxes like that. In general, I wish this show didn't do so many "centric" episodes where one character dominates over the others, but I think we're stuck with that structure until the end of the series.

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, Curio said:

I was taking a look at the Season 5 screen time charts, and I'm sorry...but remind me again how Season 5 was "Once Upon a Hook"?

I really hope that when the writers get rid of the split-season A/B structure in Season 6, they'll pull away from making the A-arc more Emma focused and the B-arc more Regina focused. I don't know why they decided to go down that route for so many seasons, but it limits the storytelling process when you force yourself into boxes like that. In general, I wish this show didn't do so many "centric" episodes where one character dominates over the others, but I think we're stuck with that structure until the end of the series.

It's a crutch, just like the flashbacks are a crutch. We'll see what season 6 brings, but centrics limit character interactions too much. I hope it's something they change.

[Mathius]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Yes, this. They made it look like Regina was going to be the "Savior" in the UW. She killed a lot of people, she would be the unfinished business of a lot of people, but in the end, she helped a total of 2 people move on from the UW, her parents.

Meanwhile, Hook actually had his brother, an entire ship crew move on, and Megara was able to do the same because he freed her. That's a lot of minutes that ticked by because of him. Aside from possibly Henry and whatever he wrote for the people with unfinished business, Hook is the one who helped the most people move on from the UW.

Also, when Henry left the book behind filled with many other unfinished business stories that would help people move on, Cruella stole it, and it was Hook along with Arthur who retrieved it so that Arthur can use it to continue sending people into the light (it's confirmed on the Cruella/Mordred DVD short that Arthur usurped her as ruler of the Underworld).  Hook was indeed much closer to being the Savior in 5B than Regina was.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Quote

 

I was taking a look at the Season 5 screen time charts, and I'm sorry...but remind me again how Season 5 was "Once Upon a Hook"?

It's always interesting to look at the time charts, but I always find them misleading in terms of *significant* screentime (as the data compiler duly noted).  It was no more "Once Upon a Hook" than "Once Upon a Regina" for sure (I suppose some might argue that Hook got more "iconic" scenes this season overall), but I can see how the Writers could argue that they used all the characters based on these numbers.  Yet much of David's screentime, for example, was pointless, yet he's tied for fourth used character with Snow, whose screentime was also mostly lacking in "meat".  Zelena, Rumple and even Merida had more of an arc and more "meaty" material than him.  Robin Hood's 116 minutes was basically nothing.

Quote

 

I really hope that when the writers get rid of the split-season A/B structure in Season 6, they'll pull away from making the A-arc more Emma focused and the B-arc more Regina focused. I don't know why they decided to go down that route for so many seasons, but it limits the storytelling process when you force yourself into boxes like that.

Yes to this.  Though they still put themselves into boxes like "the fourth episode goes to Rumple and let's really use Robert Carlyle's talents for this one" or "the second or the third episode standalone pointless filler episode goes to Snowing".

Quote

 

Also, when Henry left the book behind filled with many other unfinished business stories that would help people move on, Cruella stole it, and it was Hook along with Arthur who retrieved it so that Arthur can use it to continue sending people into the light (it's confirmed on the Cruella/Mordred DVD short that Arthur usurped her as ruler of the Underworld).  

I thought the Cruella/Mordred DVD short was pointless and gave no new information except for the last line revealing that Arthur has been ruling for a long time (very anticlimatic for a long scene).  I didn't even find the banter between the two all that clever.  It felt like something written by an intern.  One could assume Arthur sent people into the Light, but there was nothing which confirmed it in the short.  To me, vague assumptions do not make a satisfying conclusion to a clearly stated arc.  Even the name Mordred was just a name-drop, literally, since nothing from the Arthurian legend made it into the dialogue.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I think the no backstory thing with Hades could have worked if it had just been a straightforward case of him wanting to rule something bigger than the Underworld and was looking for his ticket out. But when they brought Zeus into the story with the implication that Zeus had trapped Hades in the Underworld, and apparently whatever happened was so big that just helping get Hades destroyed for good was enough for Zeus to bring Hook back to life, that made it a backstory that needed to be told. What happened that was so big that Zeus was happy about his brother being destroyed entirely? And they had a couple of sets of brothers they could have used to parallel that story -- with James and David or Liam and Killian (showing negative and positive relationships, or they could have had stuffy, upright Liam not approving of the way Killian had lived his life) -- or they could have mirrored that to the Regina and Zelena story. 

Meanwhile, most of Hades' actions during the arc made little sense in light of his ultimate goal. It was the Nevengers being in the Underworld that helped bring his plan to fruition, so why was he acting like they were intruders? Why was he torturing Hook and keeping him prisoner? If he didn't want them giving people hope and helping people move on, why was he keeping them there? What was his plan before he had Rumple fall into his lap to make the portal to get Zelena's baby? What would he have done if she hadn't fallen through the portal with the baby? His plan seemed to just keep changing from episode to episode, depending on what action they needed for the episode.

[Camera One]

You listed all the questions which made the lack of backstory for Hades detrimental to the story being told.  Upon first watch, Hades' incomprehensible agenda did generate intrigue because you had no idea what he was doing.  But building intrigue by having no coherent motivation for the villain resulted in a story which became nonsensical upon rewatch and analyzed in the bigger picture.  

[sharky]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's a crutch, just like the flashbacks are a crutch. We'll see what season 6 brings, but centrics limit character interactions too much. I hope it's something they change.

I would love for it to change or even have a few episodes that don't have flashbacks -- just to move the present-day story forward. But A&E cut their teeth on Lost, a show which btw did flashbacks much better. And now their new show supposedly has flashbacks as well, but I haven't even tried watching it so someone else has to inform me better. It was a cool idea and a really innovative and interesting concept when Lost started doing them, but even Lost changed up the "flashbacks" because at some point, they get boring and tiring and there's nothing else to tell about a character's past. A&E, on the other hand, just keep chugging along as if nothing is wrong.

[Camera One]

Yep, their new show uses flashbacks the same way, but for a first season of a show, they have been even weaker than the ones on "Once".  The flashbacks in the two episodes I watched were poorly linked to the current time storyline, and the "twists" have been lame.  

I would advocate for less flashbacks, if not for the fact that the present-day Storyline is even worse a lot of the time.  Look at 5A, in Storybrooke, we got Dark Swan doing nothing, people holding hands to escape death, Arthur tricking everyone, and Merida making Rumple "brave" again.  

[YaddaYadda]

The flashbacks for Camelot were all about the element of surprise. There was nothing that stopped them from going linear with 5A except for Hook becoming a Dark One, and they had to stretch that reveal to the max because they decided they wouldn't answer any other questions they raised.

Merlin was out of the tree near the end of episode 5 and dead by the middle of episode 10.

I'm so glad I went nowhere near Dead of Summer. I knew fuckery would abound. 

[Camera One]

The 5B flashbacks were a way to avoid having to write "boring" conversations, and because they didn't know how to make the story exciting in Underbrooke, where there seemed to be very little danger until the end.  In many ways, these flashbacks were unnecessary.  There was more than enough interesting conflict arising from the past that would fill an episode with Liam, or Milah, or Henry Sr., without the need to invent (or in many cases, retcon) a whole new story.  So once again, they were doing it for the element of surprise, that Gaston tried to kill an ogre child!  Or Rumple signed away his second child!  Or Liam made a pact with the devil and killed his entire crew!  

Edited August 20, 2016 by Camera One

[sharky]

9 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The flashbacks for Camelot were all about the element of surprise. There was nothing that stopped them from going linear with 5A except for Hook becoming a Dark One, and they had to stretch that reveal to the max because they decided they wouldn't answer any other questions they raised.

Merlin was out of the tree near the end of episode 5 and dead by the middle of episode 10.

I'm so glad I went nowhere near Dead of Summer. I knew fuckery would abound. 

Now that I'm rewatching 5A, I'm really enjoying the foreshadowing and hints that Hook is a Dark One. That part of the storyline is much more interesting to me now. But those little hints are the 30-second highlight of some dreary episodes that I've had to slog through. I mean, I just finished episode six and they're still all scratching their asses asking "What happened in Camelot that caused Emma to be this way?" Blerg. Maybe if the writers didn't force these characters to be complete morons, we could've had the answers about three episodes ago. You're sneaking around Emma's house but didn't think to check the shed with the dreamcatchers. You had video of Rumple killing Zelena in a jail cell but somehow no one thought to check the security cameras to see how Arthur's squire "got out" (hint: Arthur killed him, you dolts!). You're trying to save the Dark One because she's your daughter, but you've talked to her for a total of two minutes since she dropped your amnesiac asses back in Storybrooke. I'm sure there are more that I have blocked out but like I said, I'm only on episode six of my rewatch.

As for Dead of Summer, I'm avoiding it as well. As the Once seasons go on, I don't trust A&E to tell a well thought out story. And if the fact that their summer show was pushed on Freeform instead of ABC proper is any indication, ABC execs don't trust them anymore either. The fact is that they likely won't get a network show again for awhile after this, which is fine with me because I doubt I want to watch anything they create after this.

[YaddaYadda]

24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In many ways, these flashbacks were unnecessary.  

I thought one of the better episodes was 5x21. When it was over, I realized that it didn't have any flashbacks in it.

[Camera One]

That's always the pattern.  They're finally able to do a non-flashback episode towards the end of the arc, when they are directly leading up to the climax, since they can finally let things happen instead of letting things stall.  I thought the machinations in that particular episode leading up to the confrontation with Hades/Zelena/Regina/Emma/Robin were rather clunky, though.

[KingOfHearts]

Unpopular opinion: I find Last Rites overrated. It's not a bad episode and it's definitely in the better group of episodes in 5B, but some of it is clunky as Camera One mentioned. Arthur and Robin both had very abrupt deaths that didn't do their characters justice. Most of the events were smashed together for the OMG factor. "Both Regina and Zelena lost their boyfriends at the same time! Hook comes back after the funeral! OMG!" It's almost humorous how easily Zelena was able to obliterate an immortal god. Hades was just stupid for revealing the only thing that could kill him.

What I like about the episode is the Hook/Arthur adventure in the Underworld. That's really the only reason I'd want to rewatch it.

Quote

I think the no backstory thing with Hades could have worked if it had just been a straightforward case of him wanting to rule something bigger than the Underworld and was looking for his ticket out. But when they brought Zeus into the story with the implication that Zeus had trapped Hades in the Underworld, and apparently whatever happened was so big that just helping get Hades destroyed for good was enough for Zeus to bring Hook back to life, that made it a backstory that needed to be told.

I didn't think Hades demanded a backstory either for most of the arc. But with all the implied backstory (with Zeus, the Ambrosa Tree, etc.), it feels like we're missing a chunk of story. It's not that we absolutely needed more information to piece things together, but why imply something more complex if you have no intentions of exploring it? (You could ask the same about Lost S6, now that I think about it.)

Edited August 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

1 hour ago, sharky said:

And now their new show supposedly has flashbacks as well, but I haven't even tried watching it so someone else has to inform me better.

I've watched every episode of Dead of Summer so far (don't ask why...the only reason I'm sticking around is to spot the writing similarities between OUAT and DoS), and they somehow handle the flashbacks even worse than this show because none of the characters' pasts really tie together. If the main actor of the centric is good, the flashback is decent because the quality is lifted by the acting. If the actor sucks (like most of the actors on DoS), then the flashback fails. So, basically the same thing as OUAT.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I would advocate for less flashbacks, if not for the fact that the present-day Storyline is even worse a lot of the time.  

5A had the potential to have a really good present-day, linear story line if they only focused on the events of Camelot. Storybrooke wasn't even needed. They could have kept Nimue tempting Hook to sacrifice everyone in Camelot. They could have kept Emma wiping everyone's memories in Camelot. The only reason they wanted the flashback format was to hide a giant secret for 8 episodes.

55 minutes ago, sharky said:

As for Dead of Summer, I'm avoiding it as well. As the Once seasons go on, I don't trust A&E to tell a well thought out story. And if the fact that their summer show was pushed on Freeform instead of ABC proper is any indication, ABC execs don't trust them anymore either. The fact is that they likely won't get a network show again for awhile after this, which is fine with me because I doubt I want to watch anything they create after this.

Technically, Freeform is owned by ABC, so the fact that A&E were allowed to make a show for Freeform at all shows that ABC has a lot of faith in them. However, we'll see how much that faith lasts after all the tepid reviews for DoS.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The only reason they wanted the flashback format was to hide a giant secret for 8 episodes.

And of course for the *shocking* Dark Swan reveal. But that didn't really matter considering she really didn't do much evil. It wasn't Dark!Emma but rather Walls!Emma with a bit of theater. Her actions were edgy at best.

Quote

5A had the potential to have a really good present-day, linear story line if they only focused on the events of Camelot. Storybrooke wasn't even needed. They could have kept Nimue tempting Hook to sacrifice everyone in Camelot. They could have kept Emma wiping everyone's memories in Camelot.

You wouldn't even need the memory wipes. We could have just had everything play out as it did in Camelot. Then Hook/Nimue would cast the curse, and then the events afterwards would be nearly identical to 5x10/5x11. Just skip Zero to Hero Rumple entirely and keep Merida in EF.

Edited August 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I find Last Rites overrated. It's not a bad episode and it's definitely in the better group of episodes in 5B, but some of it is clunky as Camera One mentioned. Arthur and Robin both had very abrupt deaths that didn't do their characters justice. Most of the events were smashed together for the OMG factor. "Both Regina and Zelena lost their boyfriends at the same time! Hook comes back after the funeral! OMG!" It's almost humorous how easily Zelena was able to obliterate an immortal god.

I think maybe it would have worked better if it hadn't all been so abrupt. We should have seen more of Hades being a real threat to Storybrooke and the rest of the world. As it was, they were looking for ways to kill him when all he'd done up to that point was doublecross them when he escaped the Underworld and kill Arthur. Cora was a bigger direct threat, and killing her brought on the dark heart spot and lots of "heroes don't kill" talk. Regina had done worse to all of them and they wouldn't let her die to undo her own doomsday device. But they jumped straight to "how do we kill Hades?" before getting a sense of what he was really up to. So maybe if we'd had at least a whole episode of Hades ruling Storybrooke, then there would have been some buildup to his death, more reason for Zelena to feel betrayed and go from "you just don't like my boyfriend but I trust him" to killing him, more sense of jeopardy, threat, and stakes. Meanwhile, that would also have given us the chance to feel the loss of Hook -- show his funeral, show some grieving, create a contrast for his return. And then maybe we could have seen the backstory with Zeus to set up Zeus rewarding Hook. There was so much wheel-spinning in that arc, it would have been easy to find the space to fit in an extra episode and delete something else. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

There was so much wheel-spinning in that arc, it would have been easy to find the space to fit in an extra episode and delete something else. 

Ruby Slippers could get deleted and no one would care.

[sharky]

6 hours ago, Curio said:

Technically, Freeform is owned by ABC, so the fact that A&E were allowed to make a show for Freeform at all shows that ABC has a lot of faith in them. However, we'll see how much that faith lasts after all the tepid reviews for DoS.

It's weird though. Like, did ABC ask them for a teen drama, which is why it ended up on Freeform? Or did they ask for a drama and then after seeing it, decided to put it on Freeform instead of the ABC schedule? I get that they kept the show development in house so there is some confidence, but what is it about DoS that made it a good Freeform show? How does it differ from ABC proper? I guess that's where I'm confused. Once has done good but not great. Wonderland fell flat, but that's not totally on the shoulders of A&E. So what made Once so special compared to those other projects that it gets a prime Sunday slot on ABC but not DoS?

[Camera One]

Replying in Writers' thread.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Emma's backstory in Firebird could have been told in real time. The only thing about it was that Storybrooke and her parents were really not all that far from the lobster shack. 

I think that episode could have been used to establish a lot more of what Hades was doing instead of them guessing that Hades was trying to keep them in the UW while he went to Storybrooke with Zelena. They could have started all of that in 5x19 during Sisters.

[Curio]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Ruby Slippers could get deleted and no one would care.

But what about the three Wolfie/Kansas fans?

[Camera One]

I think Emma's backstory in Firebird could have been told in real time.

I wonder if they considered having Cleo in Underbrooke  Though it seems like that Underworld was only for people from the enchanted realms.  That backstory in "Firebird" was certainly lacking and actually damaging to Emma's story by making her a thief even after prison.  But at the same time, the show tends to do a bad job when they reveal backstory through dialogue, without showing what happened.  Charming telling the story of his drunk dad left me stone cold and bored.  The backstory did give Jennifer Morrison some good scenes to play, I suppose.

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That backstory in "Firebird" was certainly lacking and actually damaging to Emma's story by making her a thief even after prison.

I don't understand why the creators haven't fleshed out a detailed timeline for their main characters yet. Emma's backstory in "Firebird" and Hook's flashback in "The Brothers Jones" were both clearly made up on the spot and written clumsily to fit the motif of the episode. Emma looking back at the Underworld and randomly saying something about her leather jacket was especially awkward. If I were A&E, I'd have written detailed life stories for all the main characters by the first or second season as a roadmap to use in future seasons, but with the ability to stray from the timeline only if the story has organically changed over time. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I totally agree.  But it seems like their priority is giving themselves room to make up stuff on the spot to fit whatever new characters or arcs they come up with, so viewers would get a surprise.  Emma's backstory in particular is a convoluted mess, and I can't imagine they could have mapped stuff out like "Emma almost gets adopted by the Snow Queen" and "Emma keeps rejecting Maleficent's daughter" and "Emma receives a prophesy from Merlin".  But there was no excuse why Emma's path after going to jail wasn't mapped out, and even how she became a bailbondsperson.  One could have expected that backstory in Season 1 or 2.

I mean, at the very least, before making up a brand new retcon story, maybe the Writers Room could sit down and look at the existing pieces and make up something that works with what has been already written and doesn't contradict the timeline or characterization.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

Quote

But there was no excuse why Emma's path after going to jail wasn't mapped out, and even how she became a bailbondsperson.  One could have expected that backstory in Season 1 or 2. 

Emma's supposed to be the main character and we're still struggling to fill in gaps with her backstory in Season 6, yet Regina has dozens of flashbacks and is apparently getting a novel about her teenage years? It's sad that A&E seemed to put more effort into explaining how Henry Sr. was shrunk and exploring Regina's Sweet Sociopathic 16 Birthday Party instead of exploring a huge moment in Emma's life. In fact, A&E didn't write Emma's flashback script, that was Jane. Sigh, off to the writers thread again...

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I mean, at the very least, before making up a brand new retcon story, maybe the Writers Room could sit down and look at the existing pieces and make up something that works with what has been already written and doesn't contradict the timeline or characterization.

I think they actually do this...but they probably don't care if something gets retconned because of their tight 22-episode season schedule.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I thought Emma's flashback would have to do with the person who gave her that chance she talked about back in season 2. You know the experience that prompted her to give Regina a chance when she decided to invite her to the welcome home party. If Emma had spent more than 24 hours with Cleo where she was showing her the ropes, took her under her wing, the backstory for the jacket would have made so much more sense.

Emma adopted the jacket as her armour because a woman she met for 24 hours was as emotionally closed off as Emma is, and she blurted stuff about protecting herself from the people she loved. Okay then...she decided to adopt the personality of someone else entirely. So who is the real Emma Swan? Is it the way she was hurt that turned her into an emotional stump, or is it the impression this woman made on her? 

Because what I'm getting from that episode is that Emma wasn't this closed off as a person. We know she was in Tallahassee for 2 years because she was waiting for Neal to show up, so she still loved him, and she still held out hope that he would find her and that they could have what they talked about. And when she met Cleo, she was still looking for her parents. 

24 hours turned Emma into a proto Cleo. 

As far as Hook goes, I've said it before. They got the order of his flashbacks wrong. 5x11 should have been with Liam and 5x15 with his father.

Edited August 21, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

Well said.  I was really confused by that Emma flashback, since it showed that she was still so vulnerable and open after prison.  I had just assumed that prison and having to give up Henry resulted in those walls.  As you said, the 24 hour transformation was ridiculous and really took me out of it.  It didn't help that they couldn't have made Cleo more bland if they tried.  The fact that this episode was written and made it to air seems to show a complete lack of understanding or caring or skill in character development, for a main character, too.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

That Emma flashback was one of their worst attempts at a "thematic" flashback. You can skip it and it has absolutely zero bearing on the present story. At least with the awful Liam flashback, you needed the flashback to make the current events make sense. With the Emma one, it was just a vague "Emma's walls" kind of parallel. We already knew Emma had walls, and we'd already seen about a zillion good reasons for her to have put up walls. One more incident didn't add anything to it. But the walls thing wasn't even relevant to the present story. It was fake drama. By then we'd seen exactly what Emma was willing to do for Hook, and we'd seen couples with less history and sacrifice have TLKs that worked. Was there any doubt that they'd pass the test, walls or no walls? Meanwhile, that flashback didn't even fit with the continuity. They'd have been better off giving Robin a pre-send-off centric or getting into why Hades was so desperate to escape the Underworld. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

The fact that this episode was written and made it to air seems to show a complete lack of understanding or caring or skill in character development, for a main character, too.

This was the final nail in the coffin to show how little the writers care about Emma's past. She's in many ways used as a plot device, despite being the main character in the Show, and one whom the writers claim is an original "Disney princess" they created. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

This was the final nail in the coffin to show how little the writers care about Emma's past.

Ironically, I doubt the Writers would see that.  They probably think that was a great story and a real tribute to Emma.

[Curio]

24 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

She's in many ways used as a plot device, despite being the main character in the Show, and one whom the writers claim is an original "Disney princess" they created. 

I feel like there's been this weird main character battle between Regina and Emma for several seasons now. A show is allowed to have two main characters, but this dynamic feels more like a push/pull fight in the writers room instead of complementing one another.

[YaddaYadda]

But even Regina's backstory is getting weirder and weirder the more they decide to add to it. 

Unpopular opinion, but I really don't care about where Emma got her red jacket from, or the story behind her tattoo. This is not what I want the writers to focus on, or for them to write a backstory that fits the jacket or the tattoo instead of those two things fitting the story. I don't know if the sentence made sense.

[Camera One]

Hopefully, the Writers learned from "Lost" and won't write an episode about the tattoo.  I also didn't necessarily want to know where Emma's red jacket came from, but how she became a hardened bailbondsperson was a story that needed to be told.  A&E&J basically reduced all that complexity to a red jacket, instead of focusing on the person.  I wouldn't be surprised if we get a flashback about the original owner of the yellow bug before the series ends.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Unpopular opinion, but I really don't care about where Emma got her red jacket from, or the story behind her tattoo.

She got it when she went to Hong Kong. She was kidnapped by the Hipster Darlings and brought to the Dragon. The Darlings needed to find Storybrooke, so they brought the Savior to the only magical being in LWM they knew and blackmailed him into helping them. Then he told Emma all about her past and gave her evidence of magic. Then Emma swore to save her family and got a tattoo of their crest. But then the Dragon did some research and found out the 28th birthday prophecy, so he stripped her of her memories to insure that it happens according to plan. Then the Darlings escorted her back to Boston.

The Home Office later sent Tamara to kill the Dragon because they got what they needed and didn't want him interfering.

Edited August 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[tri4335]

58 minutes ago, Camera One said:

.  I wouldn't be surprised if we get a flashback about the original owner of the yellow bug before the series ends.

I agree and we will find out the bug belonged to someone who was from FTL and Emma by keeping the Bug has made his/her life miserable!

Edited August 21, 2016 by tri4335

[KAOS Agent]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Even Regina's backstory is getting weirder and weirder the more they decide to add to it. 

I think the writers are tired of all of the characters and the story at this point. They may have their favorites, but I think they don't care much either. It's a paycheck at this point. I do think they prefer to write for the Evil Queen than Regina which is why they brought her back. It's more fun to write an off the chain villain than the boring heroes. I'd bet Lana is happy to pull out the crazy eyes again too. It's got to be more fun to play the over the top psycho than the increasingly bland Regina.

I wish they would ditch the flashback stories not only because they are retconning the retcons at this point, but because it breaks up the story to stop and have a very special episode featuring characters not involved in the A plot. There's no need to make their B and C plot stories suddenly take over the show for an episode in the middle of the season. In a normal show, those stories would flow behind the A plot over a series of episodes, but the way this show forces everything into centrics, we end up derailing the main story for a side trip to Randomville. Was there any point to the Belle/Merida kidnapping adventure in Camelot? The David/Anna backstory in "White Out" was ridiculous. David & Arthur's search for the meaningless mushroom in "Siege Perilous" made David look like an asshole by chasing glory rather than working to help his daughter. Stop the madness and tell a nice coherent story.

[Camera One]

I've been watching clips of the show during this hiatus.  I started with a lot of Season 1 scenes, between Emma and Henry, between Emma and Mary Margaret, and between Mary Margaret and David.  I also watched the Rumple/Baelfire flashback scenes.  I began to wonder if the show really was better back then, or if it has always been a show of moments (as those scenes *still* had a lot of power), and those moments are just too far and in between in recent years.  

Just now, I watched the first scene of "The Tower", which was a poorly written episode and half-season, but that scene with Charming and Emma dreaming about her first dance was just so heartbreaking, and had so much potential.  Even the shot of David walking through that castle, perhaps for the first time, raised some emotion.  As I've said before, Snow must have found it hard to live there again, with all the memories of her parents, not having been there since the day the Huntsman tried to kill her.  So much pain and regret they still had to work through, which would have resulted in so many good moments, but all completely ignored.  The whole issue of David feeling like he failed Emma, didn't even get a full parallel David/Emma scene in the present in the end.  Though I guess you'd be hard-pressed to find a full minute between solely Emma and David, or solely Emma and Snow, with true emotional dialogue, in the entire Season 5.   So there aren't even "moments".

Edited August 25, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I began to wonder if the show really was better back then, or if it has always been a show of moments (as those scenes *still* had a lot of power), and those moments are just too far and in between in recent years.  

Season 1 was definitely better simply because it was a tighter story. Watching the latest seasons, I can drive a whole fleet of trucks through the plot holes and that was not so much the case in S1. This is aided by the fact that it's hard to retcon something that hasn't yet been written. The story in S1 was also generally a linear tale in the past of the Snowing love story and Regina's work to gain revenge by casting the curse. The audience may not have gotten all of the pieces in a linear fashion, but the whole tale from Rumpel's reasons to manipulate things to Regina's motivations for casting the curse to the individual characters' actions leading up to the casting of the curse were mapped out from the get go. The plot may have gotten bogged down in the present as they dragged things out, but it still made sense and even the littlest things were still relevant.  When the show moved to almost all plot, plot, action, action, they needed to continue to have very tight storytelling and they simply aren't able to do that - either because they lack the detail oriented traits necessary for this or because of short turnarounds in terms of timelines.

Beyond the tales they were telling, the audience also had the fun of trying to figure out which fairy tale character someone was and enjoying how the curse fit them into the modern Storybrooke. Red Handed and Hat Trick are two of my favorite episodes of this show, but neither of them featured a main character or were particularly plot heavy. It was simply fun to see Red Riding Hood as the wolf and the Mad Hatter's interactions with Emma in the present (the latter was particularly interesting for me because Jefferson had his memories and was talking to a disbelieving Emma). Character moments happened and are fun to watch now, but there was more to watch for than just those moments or even the overarching plot. This is something that is severely lacking in later seasons.

[daxx]

We keep saying they need to let the characters breathe and have a moment. We never do get it though.

well, Regina does if Emma is there to be dumped upon I guess.

[Rumsy4]

The writers have multiple episodes where Regina dumps on Emma. Regina's light/dark speech was probably the longest character moment we've had in seasons.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Regina's light/dark speech was probably the longest character moment we've had in seasons.

In the commentary for that episode, one of the writers mentioned they were thinking of cutting down Regina's monologue because they recognized that it was a lot of talking, but decided against it. 

[KingOfHearts]

42 minutes ago, Curio said:

In the commentary for that episode, one of the writers mentioned they were thinking of cutting down Regina's monologue because they recognized that it was a lot of talking, but decided against it. 

And yet, at least to me, it's one of Regina's best scenes for S5.

[Curio]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

And yet, at least to me, it's one of Regina's best scenes for S5.

I definitely agree that's it's one of Regina's better scenes in Season 5 because she's the one getting all the character development by speaking her mind. But when you look at the scene through Emma's perspective, that's where it falls apart for me because Emma's character development has to be silenced in order to bolster Regina's development. If it was Regina monologuing to a mirror or talking to Rumple or even Zelena, her speech would have been a lot more poignant.