A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Mari]

Will never, ever understand why they didn't do more with the fairybacks in the Missing Year. Great opportunity to not just go back to the "fairybacks tell their own separate story" mode, but also to actually make Zelena seem even vaguely threatening. She was such a dud, at the end of the day, and could have been given real teeth in the fairybacks even if she wasn't really allowed to hurt the main characters in Storybrooke.

Yes.  I've yet to figure out exactly what Zelena was doing that made her a threat to the kingdom in the time between pilfering her little sister's clothes at Knifiingham Palace and showing up to unexpectedly menace Baby Snowflake.

 

Where was a scene or two with her threatening, kidnapping, or even killing someone?  Where were the scenes of her actually getting ready and planning something?  Really, there are only so many times watching her flirt with the flying monkey can be helpful to the storyline.

[KingOfHearts]

The Missing Year was just so uneventful. There should have been a marginal difference between EF in the past and EF in the Missing Year, but there was hardly any. It's amazing how fast entire kingdoms can adjust to switching realms so quickly.

 

Love your idea on Zelena, Shanna Marie. Zelena doesn't even look like the wicked witch. If we learned she went to the wizard to get Silver Slippers and came to Oz via cyclone, we'd all believe she was Dorothy. Now that would have been a better whodunnit. They were probably trying to unveil her identity as fast as possible for the "Wicked is Coming" marketing.

 

Zelena was all bark, no bite. I wanted to see her and her monkey army terrorizing the kingdom. But nope - a couple of threats to Snowflake, and its dark curse for everyone! Snowing: "The only happy ending will be ours!"

 

On a side note, the finale would have been more fun if Zelena actually succeeded.  Regina, Emma and Hook fall into the portal into Snow Falls, and find Zelena is in power as a royal.

Edited June 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I really believe they should have had Zelena actually kill Neal. Not just say she did - actually do it, in as henious a way as possible. Maybe the good guys in the Missing Year actually try to do something about Zelena (instead of just being like, 'heard she's too powerful, better give up, cast a curse and get Emma!'), and Neal dying during their attempt is the catalyst of their 'she's too powerful, we need Emma' realization. That would have given Zelena some real menace, like Graham's murder did Regina.

[Amerilla]

Re: the lack of Neverbacks in 3A, I actually wonder if that decision was influenced by the decision they had already made (supposedly) to kill Neal off in 3B. That may well be why they didn't want to put any eggs in the Young Bae basket--why waste the screentime on a character you're killing off soon? (If only they had that feeling on Pan, Zelena, and every half-season villain-du-jour.) Also, then they would have had to actually hammer some of the mythology out, and we all know that can't happen!

 

 

Personally, I never felt like A&E ever figured out what the relationship between Neal and Hook was supposed to be. Most of what we saw was driven by the need of the moment - how to introduce that Neal was once in Neverland, how to commandeer the JR to get Gold back to SB and leave Hook behind for Tamara to scoop up, how to start the whole 3a sequence. But, except for a brief period in that single Neverback in 2x22, where Hook wavered between wanting to form a family with Bae as an extension of MIlah and wanting to pump him for information on how to kill Rumpel, and that equally brief and OOC hospital moment in "Quiet Minds," the relationship was always shown as primarily adversarial. There was no space for a familial relationship between them, because no matter how angry he might be at his good old Papa, Bae/Neal would always default to Rumpel. And once Hook decided he was in love with Emma, they were romantic rivals.

 

But...yes, if A&E decided to kill of Neal in the planning sessions between S2 and S3, I'm sure they then didn't want to devote a whole of time to the complexities of Neal's relationship with either Hook or Rumpel. I think they feel like they did their work as long as they tell us we're supposed to feel happy/sad/uplifted/tuned on by something. Why waste the time telling us something new when there's so much exposition to re-spout and so much scenery to chew?

 

The Missing Year was just so uneventful.

 

 

 

Argh! It just makes me so mad. I mean, really...they know about Zelena from their first few days there. Belle and Neal go to resurrect Rumpel within the first few weeks. Belle goes back immediately to tell the gang that Rumpel is back, that Zelena has control over him, and that Neal is probably dead. At the same time, Aurora and Philip suddenly put on their big-prince-and-princess-panties and 'fess up that Zels wants Snow's baby. And then....what, they all basically sit around and watch Snow gestate for the next eight months before they decide to take action? Really? 

[Camera One]

Aurora and Philip suddenly put on their big-prince-and-princess-panties and 'fess up that Zels wants Snow's baby. And then....what, they all basically sit around and watch Snow gestate for the next eight months before they decide to take action? Really?

 

In the flashbacks for "A Curious Thing", they basically went from Snow/Charming/Regina saying they'll find another way than to use the Curse, to the next flashback, where Snow/Charming/Regina prepare to enact the Curse.  Presumably, they spent months trying to find another way and failed (surprise surprise).  The key is they wanted the "surprise" of Snow/Charming being the ones to enact the Curse, so they had to show it all in one episode.

 

The Missing Year felt like a way to drag out the season and it didn't have to be.  I mean, come on with the inane way with which Zelena carried out her plan.  I don't care that she wasn't really menacing, but the courage, the heart, the "brain"... she could have gotten all of that on the first day she was in Storybrooke.  I mean, even the baby.  Don't tell me there isn't a "How to Induce a Birth And Then Age It By 2 Weeks" spell.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Zelena would have easily gotten all ingredients in the Enchanted Forest if she were more discrete. Unfortunately, seizing Regina's castle for trying on dresses and threatening Snow's baby didn't really have an element of surprise. Was there no one where else she could get courage, a resilient heart, a brain and a baby? Why didn't she use Aurora's baby? She was so dumb.

 

Zelena's goal was stupid in the first place, so getting there had to be just as stupid. There were so many other ways she could get her revenge on Regina. The writers just gave her the time travel thing for a Marty McFly adventure in the end. Once again, the writers plan Point A and Point B, but not how to get there. I'd say Zelena was also a victim of poor character writing.

Edited June 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And seriously no one was concerned the baby absorbed so much black magic or whatever during Zelena's spell?  And at least be consistent with the rest... so the heart needs to be real but Rumple could just substitute his brain for some gold thread woven while he's thinking?  Would a filled-in crossword puzzle have worked?  They never even answered why specifically Charming's courage?  Why specifically Rumple's brain?  Why did it have to be Regina's heart?  Why Snow's baby?  Well, the Regina one maybe because it was personal, except she doesn't have resilient heart at all, as someone pointed out on the old forums.  I know this show is fantasy, but there has to be a basis upon which the rules of magic work.  Since supposedly Zelena was breaking one of the cardinal laws of magic, so this back-in-time spell should be a big deal, not gathering some random objects no one would buy even at a garage sale.  At the very least, we could have seen her discovering the recipe of brains + heart + courage in Oz instead of the rejection from the lame-o Council of Dummies.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

So really strong magic can break the laws of magic? If magic laws can be broken with strong magic, why are there laws?

[Serena]

I'm guessing they're not so much "laws" as "shit no one has figured out how to do yet".

[ShadowFacts]

 

so the heart needs to be real but Rumple could just substitute his brain for some gold thread woven while he's thinking?  Would a filled-in crossword puzzle have worked?  They never even answered why specifically Charming's courage?  Why specifically Rumple's brain?  Why did it have to be Regina's heart?  Why Snow's baby?  Well, the Regina one maybe because it was personal, except she doesn't have resilient heart at all, as someone pointed out on the old forums. 

 

Filled-in crossword puzzle, I almost choked on my drink.  And why "resilient" heart anyway?  Not only didn't Regina have one, how is that measured, why not just say strong?  Maybe a black heart should have been what was required, Regina would fit that bill.

[stealinghome]

I'm guessing they're not so much "laws" as "shit no one has figured out how to do yet".

This is a version of the same problem that this show always has, though, in that it creates things like laws or curses or christens someone "the most powerful ever" to make the situation seem more dire and try to impress on the audience the importance of what's happening. The problem is, they've done it so much by now--and the solution is always laughably easy--that saying something is "impossible," etc, has just become a parody. You really only get one, MAYBE two of those, over an entire series of a show. Now, it's cheapened so much as to just make me roll my eyes.

[ShadowFacts]

This is a version of the same problem that this show always has, though, in that it creates things like laws or curses or christens someone "the most powerful ever" to make the situation seem more dire and try to impress on the audience the importance of what's happening. The problem is, they've done it so much by now--and the solution is always laughably easy--that saying something is "impossible," etc, has just become a parody. You really only get one, MAYBE two of those, over an entire series of a show. Now, it's cheapened so much as to just make me roll my eyes.

Oh, exactly.  The prime example is the incredible heart-splitting solution Snow came up with on a dime, that no one else has ever done before.  It was so much b.s.  I mean, shouldn't labor and delivery have been a little harder for a woman with only 50% of normal coronary output?  Besides which I am very sick of the heart-ripping in general.  Way, way overdone.

[Mari]

Filled-in crossword puzzle, I almost choked on my drink.  And why "resilient" heart anyway?  Not only didn't Regina have one, how is that measured, why not just say strong?  Maybe a black heart should have been what was required, Regina would fit that bill.

I was one of the people that ranted about that when it happened.  Regina's heart is passionate.  It is determined. It is blackened.  It is resolute.  It is selfish.  It is fearful.

 

It is not resilient.  It's anti-resilient.   And I may not have a good opinion of Belle's perception and decision making skills, but even she should have twitched an eyebrow at "Regina's resilient heart" when she said it.  It was one of the few times I didn't cringe at Belle's line delivery.  I could fansplain it as her trying to say it without blurting "Wow, isn't Zelena massively stupid!  This spell is definitely going to go wonky." 

 

Huh.  That could explain why Zelena had to die(?) or the spell to work.

[KingOfHearts]

Breaking the laws of magic worked better for Once: Wonderland because it was the climax to the entire series, not just a half-season villain errand. That's what made the situation so dire and worth noting. They were making people love people and bringing dead people back to life. It actually held weight.

 

The heart logic has the same problem with rule-breaking. In S2 and Once: Wonderland, it was pretty much established you can't really love someone if you don't have your heart. Jump ahead to 3B, and Robin asks Regina about this. She says she can feel love, but it's "hard to explain". Then we all know how she had True Love's Kiss, then used magic that's powered by love. So, if you can't love without a heart, how can you take magic from that? Oh and don't forget - Regina can just cast a spell to stop Zelena from controlling her with her heart. Being heartless no longer matters, apparently.

 

Fast-forward to A Curious Thing, when we find out you can split your heart and live. If we ever need to cast the Dark Curse again, just have Rumpbelle or Captain Swan split their hearts. No one has to die! Snow's reason for this working? "Because I believe!"

 

 The Dark Curse and the heart ripping are two magic staples on the show, and 3B cheapened them both.

Edited June 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

The Dark Curse and the heart ripping are two magic staples on the show, and 3B cheapened them both.

I definitely agree on the Dark Curse--though I think that the seeds of cheapening it were sown in 3A, when Pan could enact it after like an hour of preparation (when it took Regina almost a year to prepare it the first time) and Regina could undo it by tearing up a scroll, and even in some respects by the way the show has actually made realm-jumping as easy as booking an airline ticket--but I actually have to agree that ShadowFacts that heart-ripping has been way overused on this show dating back to S2. In S1, especially with Graham and Daniel, you really, really got the sense that heart-ripping was a big deal. In S2, it felt like everyone could take someone else's heart, and it just didn't seem as dire (part of it was the retconning what holding a heart actually allows you to do), and then 3A continued on that theme, plus the ridiculous "I can cast a spell so that no one can take your heart! (that I will never cast on myself because of PLOT!)" thing. (Like really, why has Regina not cast that spell on everyone she wants to keep safe?) So while I agree that 3B took it a little over the top, the heart-ripping has been problematic for me for a while now.

 

I was thinking earlier that the show really could have benefited from giving its magic users certain "specialties." We've all complained that magic is way too much of a magical solution on this show; one way to combat it would have been to have a basic level of magic that all magic users can do--like they can all teleport, say, and have basically telekineses--but then have sub-specialties there. They could be genetic, too. So maybe Regina can rip hearts because of Cora, while Zelena could excel at potions (the memory potion, the thing she threw into Snowing's cauldron, the stuff she slipped David). Pan has magical charisma, or his "I can freeze everyone in their tracks" thing (though that, imo, is too powerful). Then you could also have framed the Dark One as so powerful in part because he's kind of a jack-of-all-trades.

Edited June 26, 2014 by stealinghome

[legaleagle53]

But that wouldn't explain how Henry was able to rip his own heart out and give it to Peter Pan, if that skill had a genetic component. He couldn't have inherited it from either Regina or Cora (hell, I'm surprised that he even knew the technique -- I don't think he'd ever even seen Regina or Rumpel do it, and it's not something that they would have taught him).

[KingOfHearts]

Well, in S2 I found ripping out hearts to be expected because of Cora, who happens to be the Queen of Hearts. Taking hearts out left and right was a major characteristic of hers. I think what made ripping hearts less intimidating was the amount of times they were ripped without actually any death. A couple of examples would be Regina showing Snow her dark heart in Welcome to Storybrooke, and when Regina took the heart of the Lost Boy so they could speak with Henry. Pan and Zelena needing hearts for their devious plans was a bit of a rehash. Is there anything else they could use besides hearts?

 

Let hearts be Cora/Regina's thing, and let Pan/Zelena have their own specialties, please. I'd also like to note that Cora's other specialty was shapeshifting. Pan's might have been some sort of slight omniscience, because he knew things about the others that he couldn't have. (Like Belle and Henry's image)

 

 

But that wouldn't explain how Henry was able to rip his own heart out and give it to Peter Pan,

 

He was only able to do it because Pan helped with his own magic.

 

 

plus the ridiculous "I can cast a spell so that no one can take your heart! (that I will never cast on myself because of PLOT!)" thing

 

My headcanon is that Regina used blood magic on Henry's heart, which means Zelena could break it. The reason she said no one could take it was because she thought the rest of her family had died.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Plus the ridiculous "I can cast a spell so that no one can take your heart! (that I will never cast on myself because of PLOT!)

 

Don't forget 3B's introduction of "I can cast a spell so just in case I forget to cast that spell to stop someone from taking my heart, then the person with my heart can't control me with my heart".

 

Next season, characters will be able to grow new hearts in little flower pots and put multiple hearts inside their chest just in case someone takes one or you break one by accident.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

But that wouldn't explain how Henry was able to rip his own heart out and give it to Peter Pan, if that skill had a genetic component.

Didn't Pan cast some sort of spell on Henry's arm that made him able to rip his own heart out? I thought it was basically the same spell that Regina cast on Hook's hook in 'Queen of Hearts'--like a one-time, limited use kind of deal.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all magical abilities would HAVE to be genetic. But it just makes sense to me that different people would be better at different types of magic--no different from the way even two people in nominally the same job have different strengths, really--and it's an organic way to limited magical omnipotence. And then a genetic predisposition makes sense.

 

I think what made ripping hearts less intimidating was the amount of times they were ripped without actually any death. A couple of examples would be Regina showing Snow her dark heart in Welcome to Storybrooke, and when Regina took the heart of the Lost Boy so they could speak with Henry. Pan and Zelena needing hearts for their devious plans was a bit of a rehash.

Yeah, this is probably accurate. It's become more of a convenient plot point than a real show-stopper, as it was in S1. (Don't forget Aurora's heart!)

 

Let hearts be Cora/Regina's thing, and let Pan/Zelena have their own specialties, please. I'd also like to note that Cora's other specialty was shapeshifting. Pan's might have been some sort of slight omniscience, because he knew things about the others that he couldn't have. (Like Belle and Henry's image)

Hee. I was thinking that Pan had some sort of magical charisma--because I gotta say, there's no way some creepy psycho in an ugly cloak would have convinced me to go live with him forever!

[Camera One]

ow Henry was able to rip his own heart out and give it to Peter Pan, if that skill had a genetic component. He couldn't have inherited it from either Regina or Cora (hell, I'm surprised that he even knew the technique -- I don't think he'd ever even seen Regina or Rumpel do it, and it's not something that they would have taught him).

 

I just realized Henry has tried to commit suicide and Pan has used his body to murder someone by ripping out a person's heart and crushing it to dust.  It's best not to overthink this show, or else it could be very disturbing.  

[Amerilla]

Hee. I was thinking that Pan had some sort of magical charisma--because I gotta say, there's no way some creepy psycho in an ugly cloak would have convinced me to go live with him forever!

 

Oh, c'mon...are you telling me you wouldn't follow that eyebrow anywhere? </sarcasm>

 

Next season, characters will be able to grow new hearts in little flower pots and put multiple hearts inside their chest just in case someone takes one or you break one by accident.

Someone in town could make a fortune starting the First Heart Bank of Storybrooke. Why should Regina have the town's only safe-deposit boxes for heart storage?

 

 

The prime example is the incredible heart-splitting solution Snow came up with on a dime, that no one else has ever done before.  It was so much b.s.

Double b.s., really. Not only did they pull the half-heart thing out of a part of the anatomy slightly south of the chest cavity, David was dead. Not dying...not suspended in some convenient, never before mentioned Dark Vault....not absorbed into someone else's body waiting for a more dramatic moment to kick the bucket. Dead. Original heart crushed to dust.

 

"Dead is dead," right? That was actually a pretty major theme in S2, that you can't resurrect someone who is gone, no matter how much you want it or how deep your love or believe. So, that's yet another Inviolable Rule of Magic tossed out the window to serve the plot du jure.. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by Amerilla

[Shanna Marie]

The heart splitting thing doesn't bother me too much because it seems like the "heart" here is more a metaphorical thing that seems to be a repository for the soul rather than having anything to do with cardiovascular function. Otherwise, how would people be able to walk around, functioning, while their hearts are outside their bodies? Plus, the actual heart doesn't have anything to do with love. So Snow and David sharing a heart has absolutely nothing to do with their blood being pumped. Snow putting half her heart into David was able to save his life because it put a soul back into his body. Think of it as hitting him with a defibrillator. And I figure that sharing a heart hasn't been done before because the kind of people prone to ripping out hearts tend not to be big on sharing or on giving their victims a chance to go on living. It worked in this one case because Snow did love David enough to be willing to share her heart, and they already had a relationship in which they could be said to be sharing hearts, and because Regina was able to rip and restore hearts and was willing to do the heart split.

 

But I do think we should declare a moratorium on heart ripping for at least half a season.

[stealinghome]

I don't actually have a problem with Snow and David sharing a heart--as Shanna Marie says, I'm already wickedly suspending my disbelief that people can walk around without hearts at all, so really, ripping a heart in half isn't that big of a stretch for me--but I do have a problem with the fact that David was dead as a doornail for a few minutes before he got half of Snow's heart. I just can't wrap my head around the defibrillator analogy, because if the heart really does represent the soul, crushing David's heart really should have set his soul free, and I don't think you get take-backs where that's concerned! So I have to agree that we ventured into "dead is irretrievably, incurably, totally permanent, you can't resurrect someone!...except when we need to for plot purposes" there.

 

That all said, Goodwin and Dallas acted the hell out of the scene and it was one of 3B's best, so I just roll with it and don't think too hard about it.

[ShadowFacts]

Ripping, crushing, talking into it like a walkie-talkie, all the heart stuff has gotten cartoonish and meaningless.  If people can walk around and give birth and in Regina's case love "in a different way", then what exactly is that little red organ?  Why does the person perish if it is crushed?   Except as Amerilla noted, David and his post-mortem transplant.  Etc. etc.  There's no making sense of it. 

[KingOfHearts]

I have always known, since I first saw hearts in the show, that the hearts were totally different from the physical hearts. This was actually confirmed in The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, when Emma felt Graham's heart beating even though his "heart" was in Regina's vault.

 

The part about the heart splitting that bothered me the most was that Snow sacrificed absolutely nothing to cast the Dark Curse. It was a move by the writers to kill someone without actually killing them. (Like August regenerating into Pinocchio. Such a cop-out.) The whole concept was pulled out of a hat, and made zero logical sense from what's been in the show beforehand. It makes Regina sacrificing her own father unnecessary. There's no payment, besides ingredients, for casting the most powerful curse ever concocted. If Snow can cast the Dark Curse without paying anything, then anyone can if they have the proper ingredients and they love someone.

 

I really need to start counting all the breakings of the "dead is dead" rule. There's Marian, the Blue Fairy, Pinocchio, Charming, and possibly Greg.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The key is they wanted the "surprise" of Snow/Charming being the ones to enact the Curse, so they had to show it all in one episode.

Or they could have established the Zelena threat early, shown throughout the half season that the threat was building as they learned what she wanted and as they tried and failed to stop her multiple times, and then had the big reveal about casting the curse when all seemed lost and it was a desperation move.

 

That may well be why they didn't want to put any eggs in the Young Bae basket--why waste the screentime on a character you're killing off soon?

Didn't these guys work on Lost? Isn't that essentially Lost 101: Let us get to know a character and care about him before killing him? Then we're sadder at the loss, and if we saw his relationship with someone else, we'd understand more about why that person was so sad at the loss. Plus, it would have been a more interesting way of setting up the hazards of Neverland and the possible ways out. I think I'd have been more sympathetic about thief Neal if we saw him having to learn all those survival skills on Neverland.

 

The whole concept was pulled out of a hat, and made zero logical sense from what's been in the show beforehand. It makes Regina sacrificing her own father unnecessary.

That was kind of the tragedy of it, and may have been why Regina was in tears from seeing it happen. She was realizing that her father didn't have to die, that if she'd thought to share her heart with him, she could have maybe cast the curse and still saved him. But she was so selfish and so driven that sharing never even occurred to her. I'm not even sure it would have worked for her. It worked for Snow and David because of their love for each other. Did Regina really love her father that much that they could have shared a heart?

[Camera One]

The part about the heart splitting that bothered me the most was that Snow sacrificed absolutely nothing to cast the Dark Curse.

 

After Peter Pan did it and sacrificed nothing, I stopped caring about that problem.  

[stealinghome]

Man, who would even want half of Regina's heart? Recent retconning about how it's so ~resilient aside, that's got to be the nastiest piece of crap heart EVER (well, second only to Rumpel's. Maybe tied with Zelena. I'm convinced Pan had a black hole instead of a heart, so he doesn't count). Like, it's a shriveled little piece of carbon. I might rather die than have that thing inside of me!

 

Or they could have established the Zelena threat early, shown throughout the half season that the threat was building as they learned what she wanted and as they tried and failed to stop her multiple times, and then had the big reveal about casting the curse when all seemed lost and it was a desperation move.

I also think you could have, with some good writing, telegraphed early that Snowing was going to cast the curse with David's heart, and then dropped a bunch of narrative false ends that would make people ask whether David was an illusion, an imposter, or if he was going to drop dead the moment the new curse was broken. Kind of like how (imo) they made Hook look a little shifty where Bae was concerned for a few episodes.

 

Plus I've kind of always wanted a scene kind of after Snow says "we'll find another way" in 3x19, and figuring she walks away. David and Regina could be left looking at each other and he could say "There's not going to be another way, is there?" And Regina says "No," puts a hand on his forearm, and walks away, and we cut to David just staring into the distance, knowing that his days are numbered. I feel like Parrilla and Dallas could've played the HELL out of that.

Edited June 27, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

Now I'm imagining David pulling out his own heart à la Henry and handing it over to be crushed.  Like grandpa like grandson.

[scarynikki12]

Since the show never explained why it needed any of those items specifically, I wish Zelena had been gathering them during the Missing Year.  It would have gone a long way toward establishing her as a threat without making the other characters look so stupid.  Have her always want Regina's heart (though not because it's resilient, just say that the spell required the heart of an immensely powerful magical being and Rumpel wasn't back from the dead yet), but run into problems getting the other items:  

 

The baby would need to be a True Love baby, hence Aurora and Phillip, and she needed to wait for the birth.

The brain would need to be an ACTUAL brain, of a very intelligent person, and those aren't easy to come by with this lot.

The courage would be the easiest to obtain, but Zelena would still have problems as she could only get it via courageous acts.

 

Thus, Zelena spends the MY setting up all sorts of chaos to obtain the manifestation of courage, she's waiting on Sleeping Baby, she cannot find anyone who fits the intelligence criteria (though there can be reports of intelligent fairy tale characters we never met getting killed), and Regina's spells on the castle after they return prevent her from getting the heart.  This would also provide an excellent distraction for the Charmings and Co, as they work to maintain order (which isn't easy as the return throws everything into chaos all on its own).  I would even have Zelena take Charming's courage like in real time, which he doesn't think much of as he isn't yet aware what a disappearing sword hilt could represent (and doesn't think to mention it to Snow or Regina).  I would also have Aurora give birth before the Curse gets recast and maybe Charming and Phillip get a glimpse of Zelena as she flies away and recognizes her as being there during his big act of courage.  He mentions this to Snow and Regina, the sword hilt disappearance is mentioned, and Regina starts getting very worried.  She can't remember what this means, as this type of spell was one that never fit her plans so she didn't give it much thought, but she remembers it does involve some kind of spell and that she learned about it from Rumpel.  

 

Everyone goes to his castle, where Neal and Belle have taken over.  Belle has spent all her time trying to find a way to bring him back while Neal mourns but thinks (correctly) that the only way to bring him back is to bring the Dark One as well and doesn't agree with her.  This would have been a fine time for someone on the show to point out to Belle that the Dark One is not a good person, that Rumpel has been the DO for centuries, and that they are on and the same now.  The Charmings and Regina show up to examine Rumpel's spellbooks to figure out what's going on.  This is where they find the ingredients for the spell and the many deaths of the smart fairy tale characters is brought into play.  They realize what's going on but they don't know why.  

 

Here's where I would have Belle team up with Regina to resurrect Rumpel in secret.  They find the vault after everyone has gone to sleep, though Neal suspects what they're up to and follows them.  Instead of Rumpel absorbing Neal, I'd have the resurrection require a sacrifice similar to the Curse: the one that the Dark One loved most when he was still human.  Belle, being a complete idiot, offers to sacrifice herself, but the magic surrounding the vault rejects her.  This is when I'd have Zelena step in (as she was monitoring Rumpel's castle in case that twit Belle really did figure out a way to bring him back) and shove Neal into the magic and resurrect the Dark One.  Rumpel can still absorb Neal (I'd rather no one know where he was during real time and then remember his death when their memories came back) as a way to temporarily save him and Zelena can still get his dagger to control him.  This would be a nice moment for Regina to Apparate herself and Belle the hell out of there.  She'd still have no idea that it's her heart Zelena wants, or why, but she puts all the protection spells she knows into effect around the castle and Apparates everyone we know to the castle to protect them.  That would have gone a long way toward showing changes in Regina's character than the light magic nonsense.

 

Anyway, this would be a nice time for a montage of Regina, the Charmings, the Sleepings, the Dwarves, the fairies, Archie, and Red and Granny (with a big group of extras in the background) talking frantically to try and stop Zelena.  Regina can even be the one to bring up the Dark Curse, which gets shot down instantly, as does getting to Emma to solve the problem.  It would have been really nice to see Snow and Charming insist that the day they see Emma again (and they'd have confidence that they would-it's the Charmings after all) would be all about her and not because she needed to solve their problems.  Then everyone can start brainstorming, with the most popular idea being that Regina creates a new spell to stop Zelena.  The MY flashbacks in the fourth to last episode could show Regina casting new spell after new spell to stop Zelena, and some to have an effect on her (green skin, turning her minions into flying monkeys) but none permanently incapacitate her.  

 

Since I like Tink, I'd have her come up with the idea to get Sleeping Baby back and work with the fairies to do so.  They are successful (grabbing the baby while Zelena is distracted during one of Regina's spell attacks and Rumpel's being used as her weapon of choice), but this makes Zelena change her focus to the Charmings.  They still have no idea why Zelena wants to cast the spell, but her (Zelena) anger at losing the baby causes her to tip her hand and reveal that it's Regina's heart she wants.  All the sister stuff can be revealed in real time as the season progresses, by the way, so that each land and time has specific information that comes together when the memories are returned.  With the new focus on baby Snowflake and Regina's heart, everyone gathers together again to figure out what to do.  Finally, my girl Tink suggests they just modify the Dark Curse rather than outright cast it.  So, Regina and the fairies work together to take the parts of the DC that work in their favor (changing realms and landing in a Land Without Magic) and change the ingredients that are required.  I don't know, maybe the big sacrifice everyone makes is their memories AND Regina and the fairies lose their magic again.  That would be why they felt that no time had passed and it would let them legitimately deal with the once again unknown threat of Zelena.  Rumpel could even add some of his magic, unbeknownst to Zelena, to make sure that his shop is well stocked once again (and provide the group with the spellbooks that reveal Zelena's plan).  

Rumpel, because he's Rumpel, would be working on bringing back magic from the moment they all return, but he doesn't remember what happened to Neal.  He succeeds only when everyone's memories are returned (no idea how) and this is when Zelena gets all her ingredients.  She get's the drop on everyone at the hospital and gets Regina's heart, Charming's courage, Snow's baby, and Rumpel's brain.  She begins casting her spell like we saw and Regina stops her like we saw, but this time it's because she's working alongside Emma, who uses her light magic to distract Zelena and Regina grabs all the ingredients before the spell has completed.  

 

I see all this happening during the third to last episode, which is also when I'd reveal that Zelena is the unknown and unwanted sister who was abandoned and raised by an abusive drunk in Oz.  The Wizard leads her to believe that he has magic and makes her countless promises to help her find her birth family but she must first use her magic to assist him in usurping the throne from Ozma and exiling the good witches of the realm.  When Zelena realizes he has no intention of helping her and only sees her as a weapon, she takes over the West and begins creating spells to find her family herself.  But, she's only able to get glimpses of that family, so she mistakenly believes that Henry is her father, sees the moments when Cora was pretending to be a good mother, and the false happy moments between Regina and Snow, so she grows angry and vengeful.  The Wizard, meanwhile, sends Dorothy to kill her, as he knows she'll go after him when she realizes he's a con artist, but Zelena uses the water to mask her realm hopping (via the silver shoes) and lands in the CoraDome minutes before the initial curse is cast.  When it's broken she has no idea what's just happened but explores the area, comes across Rumpel's castle, finds the spell in one of his books, convinces herself that reversing time is what she needs to be happy and starts planning.  

 

I would also have Rumpel be the one to finish the spell once he's free.  He would kill Zelena like we saw, but use her essence to complete the spell with the intention of going back in time himself.  He would, no doubt, believe there must be a way to have everything he wants: Bae, magic and Belle.  Since the Dark Fairy's wand recasts spells, his plan could be to grab Bae, recast the spell, get Belle, and live with them as the Dark One without anyone being the wiser.  Giving Belle the fake dagger would occupy him long enough to miss his chance while Emma and Hook find, and use, the portal.

 

Wow, I wrote way more than I intended, but I (apparently) feel very strongly about how the show dropped the ball with Zelena.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Did Regina really love her father that much that they could have shared a heart?

 

My answer is:  not a chance in hell.  She did not love him because you do not plot to kill your father and then carry it out up close and personal. For revenge on something a little girl did that you didn't like.  Unless you are a raging psycho/sociopath.  And they don't think of such things as sharing or minimizing damage.  Especially on a person they treat like a footman. 

[Shanna Marie]

Since the show never explained why it needed any of those items specifically, I wish Zelena had been gathering them during the Missing Year.  It would have gone a long way toward establishing her as a threat without making the other characters look so stupid.

Yeah, she had no way of knowing that someone would cast the curse and they'd end up in another world, so she should have been preparing her spell all along. Instead of that lame Rapunzel plot that had David acting out of character (really? Him looking for a drug to help him face fears?), that could have been a set-up by Zelena to get his "courage." They could even have had fun with her frustration upon arriving in Storybrooke and finding that she had to start all over again because the things she collected didn't make the transfer.

 

Zelena sabotaged her whole plan by gloating about it. If she hadn't popped into Regina's castle to play with her stuff and talk about being her sister, they might not have even known there was a threat until it was too late.

 

They also needed a red-herring character in Storybrooke because they looked like total idiots when the one new person in town is all up in their business and it doesn't occur to them that it might be the bad guy they've forgotten. Maybe there should have also been a "Miss Gulch" type in town that suspicion could have been deflected to. Though I still like my idea of delaying the revelation of Zelena as the Witch, even in the fairybacks. When the audience knows so much more than the characters, it's hard to keep the characters from looking stupid.

[KingOfHearts]

My answer is:  not a chance in hell.  She did not love him because you do not plot to kill your father and then carry it out up close and personal. For revenge on something a little girl did that you didn't like.  Unless you are a raging psycho/sociopath.  And they don't think of such things as sharing or minimizing damage.  Especially on a person they treat like a footman. 

 

I'm going to have to disagree here. Regina legitimately loved her dad. They were very close. When Regina killed him, she was sobbing the whole time. It was a wrong choice, but her reasons weren't just to get revenge on Snow. She was living in exile and believed that there was no way for her to turn around in the Enchanted Forest. Even after her father's death, she kept him in her thoughts and brought flowers to his grave weekly. Just by their acting I can tell that Regina's dad was the only person she loved. The emphasis on "The Thing You Love Most" really hit home there. It wasn't right for her to kill him, but she loved him. She named her son after him to show how much she missed and respected him. At his grave she said "I love you, daddy."

 

Pan, on the other hand, is another story. He didn't love Felix, so I'd count it as a plot hole. The difference between Pan's Curse and Snow's Curse is that Pan actually lost something. Felix was Pan's main confidant and second in charge - the price was his only companion. But in Snow's Curse, she lost nothing.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

 

She named her son after him to show how much she missed and respected him. At his grave she said "I love you, daddy."

 

I guess we can define love in an almost infinite number of ways, but I wouldn't want to be loved by someone who would brutally sacrifice me, for revenge or to get out of a jam, whether or not they cried for me or brought flowers to my grave.  (And I don't think she was wanting to turn things around in the Enchanted Forest, I think Rumple dangled in front of her the way around the prohibition on hurting Snow there.)   But more important than my feelings about it, for this story, Regina now claims to love Henry (and her past actions somewhat belie that, as has been discussed a lot in these threads).  Does that mean she would choose wrongly again and sacrifice him to accomplish whatever goal?  Whilst crying and claiming to love him?  In the Regina redemption arc they're trying to sell, the answer would have to be no, but that's the equivalency I see.  The end justifying the means, no regrets . . . Regina wants what she wants when she wants it.

[Rumsy4]

I guess we can define love in an almost infinite number of ways, but I wouldn't want to be loved by someone who would brutally sacrifice me, for revenge or to get out of a jam, whether or not they cried for me or brought flowers to my grave. (And I don't think she was wanting to turn things around in the Enchanted Forest, I think Rumple dangled in front of her the way around the prohibition on hurting Snow there.) But more important than my feelings about it, for this story, Regina now claims to love Henry (and her past actions somewhat belie that, as has been discussed a lot in these threads). Does that mean she would choose wrongly again and sacrifice him to accomplish whatever goal? Whilst crying and claiming to love him? In the Regina redemption arc they're trying to sell, the answer would have to be no, but that's the equivalency I see. The end justifying the means, no regrets . . . Regina wants what she wants when she wants it.

Taking this to the Villains thread.

[Camera One]

The difference between Pan's Curse and Snow's Curse is that Pan actually lost something.  Felix was Pan's main confidant and second in charge - the price was his only companion. But in Snow's Curse, she lost nothing.

 

But losing Felix did not cause Pan any emotional pain, so to me, he essentially lost nothing.  From Pan's little smirk, he even enjoyed "surprising" Felix and crushing his heart.  Snow did lose Charming, even if it was for just a minute, and that would have been unbearable emotional pain.  Having to endure that was suffering, even if it did not last because of something that presumably had never happened before.  If Snow/Charming's True Love could "change the rules" before such that Rumple bottled their love, then I have no problem believing that they set a precedent with breaking their heart in two.  I still hated the whole way it was written, but I don't think Pan would have much of an argument if he were to say "No fair" to Snow.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not saying Pan's Curse was as legitimate as the first curse, I'm just saying at least someone died. With Snow's, no one really did. The emotional price of the curse was a gaping hole in one's heart. Well, that wasn't true with Pan or Snow. It's supposed to be a long-term price, not a short-term event. My point is that S3 nerfed the curse through the most contrived ways possible.

 

Here's a somewhat unrelated question: If Regina grew sick of Groundhog Day in Storybrooke only after a few days, what did she do for the next 18 years before adopting Henry? She wanted a child in 1983 after meeting Owen, but didn't adopt one until 2001. She waited all that time to talk to Archie about a hole in her heart, even mentioning Owen like it happened only a few months ago. I wonder how things just stayed uneventful all those years.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

One of the things I'd actually like the show to explore (but know it never will) is the fact that, even though Charming ended up surviving, Snow has to live the rest of her life with the memory of crushing David's heart, knowing that she killed her husband. I mean...that's got to be a total mindfuck, you know? What would that do to a person, having to live with the memory of killing your spouse, your soulmate, the father of your children? How do you feel about that? What does that do to Snow and Charming's relationship? Etc. Soooo not going to happen, but I'd love if the writers took a serious look at Snow's headspace on this in 4A.

 

ETA: From the Chaming thread:

If a loyal, caring, loving husband and father is "dull", then sign me up for dull.

Hear, hear!!  I totally agree, especially considering what short shrift dad's on TV often get.  More often than not they're portrayed as clueless, bumbling, slovenly over-grown children.  Daddy Charming rocks!

You know, I give the writers a lot of (deserved) flack, but one place where I really want to give them props is how they treat male characters--more specifically, that none of the men on the show are man-children. I'm so, so, so over the media's glorification of the man-child, and especially the way that a grown man acting like he's 5 is apparently catnip to smart, accomplished, mature women who could do so much better (especially because IRL, all the smart, accomplished women I know would just laugh in the face of that kind of guy).

 

But if you think about the male characters of Once, they're so not man-children. Charming leads the charge, because he's like the anti-man child, but whatever their other faults, pretty much all of the men on this show are mature adults who (generally) embrace their responsibilities and pull their weight as, you know, adult members of society, and don't need their mom or wife or girlfriend trailing after them, doing their laundry or making their food. They're loving, supportive guys who love being fathers and just want to spend time with their kids and appreciate and support the hell out of the kickass ladies in their lives. I think the closest character we've had to a man-child may be August, and that behavior was always portrayed very negatively--August wasn't doing what he was supposed to do, and that was bad.

 

Not that the writers are always great with gender, by any means, but salute, writers, for (thus far at least) avoiding that particular stereotype.

Edited June 27, 2014 by stealinghome

[legaleagle53]

Remember, though, that it was David who insisted that Snow use his heart to enact the Dark Curse. That would have to mitigate any residual guilt that Snow might have felt over doing the deed.  It's not as though Snow just told Regina to rip out his heart without so much as a second thought -- he offered it to her.

[KingOfHearts]

Splitting your heart should have consequences. It's a new concept for the show, so maybe it will. Otherwise, I just see it as another contrivance.

 

iirc, Adam & Eddie said at one point they wanted to explore the consequences of having only half a heart in the future. If they do, I hope that acts as a price for the curse. But they may sweep it under the rug as they've done in the past.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

I had the random thought yesterday that Zelena might have worked better for me if they had shown she had been in Storybrooke all along.

They could easily have worked her back story to show she had arrived in the EF to launch Operation Envy just before the Curse and been carried to Storybrooke with everyone else. This would have tied her story to Cora's similar arrival - like mother, like daughter - and worked metaphorically to have Zelena sent to yet another realm because she was walled off from the Coradome.

All it would have taken to retroactively place her in SB was a couple of flashbacks. If, for example, we had seen a quick scene of Zelena with the Storybrooke persona of a kind midwife, it would have added some contrast to her mwah-ha-ha attitude while tending to MM (and made MM look a little less like Lobotomy Snow), and, again, been a nice metaphorical twist if her cursed persona was a protector of life and her real persona a destroyer of life.

Cutting and pasting her lurking in the background of S2 also would have added some focus to her attitude toward Emma. She would have known Emma was the Savior and a potential threat to her plan. One of the frustrating parts of the story as it played out was that Zelena only seemed concerned with Emma off and on, to the point where it was only a tool to push the CS relationship, rather than an important beat in the whole story. At the very least, it could have better explained why she went to the effort to send Walsh to NY to keep tabs on her.

Finally, it could have given the story a little more dramatic tension. The overwhelming tragedy of the 3a finale would have been re-cast through her eyes as a golden opportunity for revenge. We knew she wasn't going to win, but the sense she was lurking and plotting in the background, watching with envy as Emma broke the Curse and found her family, or seen Regina and Cora together, or Gold with Belle or Neal, would have given some present-day fuel to the fires of her hatred. All in all, I think it might have added a roundness to the story that was extremely lacking.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Amerilla

[Camera One]

Interesting idea, Amerilla.  Maybe the writers were scared off by the Nikki and Paolo "they was there all along" outcry from "Lost" and didn't consider that.

[Shanna Marie]

I had a thought about why the fairybacks in season one seemed to tell a stronger story than they have since then. When you look at that season, it's almost like the fairybacks are the A plot -- telling the story of how and why the curse came about -- and then they came up with the Storybrooke story to mirror whatever was happening in that episode's fairyback. There are some major plot events at the beginning and end of the season, but otherwise much of the season boiled down to Emma butting heads with Regina and sometimes winning a minor victory and sometimes suffering a minor defeat, and to Regina scheming to keep Mary Margaret and David apart while they struggled with their feelings for each other. So it seems like they'd look at the section of the story the fairyback told, then find a thing for Emma and Regina to clash over or for David and Mary Margaret to struggle with that mirrored the fairyback.

 

In subsequent seasons, the A plot has been the present, with the fairyback or flashback serving to illustrate, set up or reflect the present-day plot events.

[stealinghome]

I had a thought about why the fairybacks in season one seemed to tell a stronger story than they have since then. When you look at that season, it's almost like the fairybacks are the A plot -- telling the story of how and why the curse came about -- and then they came up with the Storybrooke story to mirror whatever was happening in that episode's fairyback. There are some major plot events at the beginning and end of the season, but otherwise much of the season boiled down to Emma butting heads with Regina and sometimes winning a minor victory and sometimes suffering a minor defeat, and to Regina scheming to keep Mary Margaret and David apart while they struggled with their feelings for each other. So it seems like they'd look at the section of the story the fairyback told, then find a thing for Emma and Regina to clash over or for David and Mary Margaret to struggle with that mirrored the fairyback.

 

In subsequent seasons, the A plot has been the present, with the fairyback or flashback serving to illustrate, set up or reflect the present-day plot events.

You know, I'd never really quite thought about it like that, but I think this is a great observation and really true. S1 was so interesting in part because of the mirroring between past and present and the way that often Regina was setting up the present to deliberately echo the past. A lot of that has been lost since S1 (and it's no coincidence, imo, that some of the better fairybacks we've done since have actually been in this mode). It really speaks to the way the PLOT PLOT PLOT train has taken over the present-day stuff.

 

(Ach, and another opportunity wasted in 3B, because they could have restored a similar structure by having the present-day stuff be more mystery-like. Sigh.)

[Camera One]

When you look at that season, it's almost like the fairybacks are the A plot -- telling the story of how and why the curse came about -- and then they came up with the Storybrooke story to mirror whatever was happening in that episode's fairyback.

 

I can imagine they conceived 3B as an attempt to go back to this structure, except the fairybacks did not tell a balanced story and were heavily skewed towards Zelena's side of the story while giving her the advantage in almost every situation.  In S1, Emma was scoring a win in the present-day by bringing about some of the happy endings, and in the fairybacks, Snow and Charming and their allies did try to be proactive.  

 

In 3B, characters were helpless and/or stupid and Zelena "won" in both the fairybacks AND the present-day story.  In the flashbacks, we had Zelena succeed in getting Regina's blood, she succeeded in duping Neal and Belle, she got control of Rumple, she turned the hero's friends into flying monkeys, we saw the heroes waiting around not knowing what Zelena would do next, and finally, Snow/Charming/Regina then had no alternative but to cast a dark curse.  In the present-day, Zelena also consistently won... she duped Snow, she controlled Rumple, she got Charming's courage, she got Regina's heart, she got Hook's lips cursed, she turned more of their friends into flying monkeys, and she even got the baby.  Was the audience supposed to cheer on Zelena, because who else was there to cheer for? 

[Amerilla]

Saw this "pet peeve" on Tumblr this am and wanted to share it, because it points out something I didn't realize I was feeling:

 

"I miss the way they wrote male characters in season 1. Sure cursed David was weak; that was the point. But Charming was an awesome badass warrior and Rumple was an omniscient all powerful sorcerer. This season we had Charming’s big scene of rescuing Snow removed from the timeline and two near death experiences with his only major badass scene fighting himself. We also had Rumple tricked by a shadow, trapped in a box and held hostage/ controlled by a witch set on revenge. Not nearly as strong."

 

That is all so true. (In fact, in terms of the male characters, even S1 Henry was smarter and more engaged than the Truest Stupid of S3.) And it's not like they've been replaced by stronger male leads - Neal spent most of his run on the show mostly (then entirely) dead, and Hook and Robin are little more than romance-novel props for Emma and Regina. Worse for those of us who like Snowing and Rumbelle, Snow and Belle are much diminished from their S1/S2 roles, in part because David and Rumpel are diminished from theirs (or vice versa).

 

To me, the big shift happened immediately after The Miller's Daughter in S2. It's not the first 2/3rds of S2 was great, but everyone was still pretty much in-character. But all the core character seemed to lose focus in the ramp-up to S3, and S3 was - ummm - let's charitably go with "poorly executed." 

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I don't disagree that they've diminished both Charming and Rumpel since S1--and as a big Charming fan it annoys me--but I honestly think that that's happened to every single character (good or bad). Snow is a pale shadow of who she used to be, I don't even know what Regina is anymore (other than a fairy unicorn, obviously), Belle is miles away from the woman who basically gave Rumpel the finger in his own dungeon...even Emma, who I think is the closest to the character she was in S1, isn't anywhere near as badass as she used to be.

 

Which is another way of saying, I don't think it's a problem limited to the show's male characters.

[KingOfHearts]

It's possible the "we're all related" twist in S2 actually weakened all the characters. Mary Margaret had a great relationship with Emma until she found out she was her mother. When Snow and Charming got back together, Snow's character writing seemed to really suffer for some reason. Rumple lost a lot of his wit and intimidation after the Manhattan reveal. He started playing nice for his son, his grandson, and everyone else. He got really watered down. Emma used to be a hard-boiled sheriff, but after all the family stuff, she's not as badass. Regina was great as Mayor Mills, that is until Cora came to town and she started dining with the Charmings later in S3. All this "happy family" stuff just seems to take everything epic about these characters and crams it in a sitcom.

 

On a side note, I would have preferred Zelena not being Regina's sister, but rather just a rival.

Edited June 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

It's possible the "we're all related" twist in S2 actually weakened all the characters.... All this "happy family" stuff just seems to take everything epic about these characters and crams it in a sitcom.

I think it's the fact that the writers use "we're family" as a cheap, convenient way to substitute for actually strengthening the characters' relationships and forcing them to interact in ways that don't involve lots of attempted murders (heh, that's such a weird sentence to type).

 

Found families is one of my biggest favorite storylines on TV shows--Snowing+Emma is easily my favorite part of Once, I loved the first 3-4 seasons of Warehouse 13 because it was about a bunch of people coming together as a family, I'm digging Person of Interest right now for the same reason (though that show isn't nearly as touchy-feely about it), I flove The Avengers move, which is all about that, watching Xena and Gabrielle become family ("family," if you know what I mean ;) ) was a big draw for Xena the show, etc etc etc--so theoretically, Once should be my jam here. But the problem is, the writers don't actually want to write the characters developing relationships that lead them to bonding as a family--in fact, the writers don't even want to do the very basic work of explaining why Snow and Charming don't throw Regina in jail after the 34963046th time she tries to destroy Storybrooke! They don't want to let these people air their (often very legitimate) issues with each other and show true, quasi-realistic emotional arcs and relationship arcs. They use "we're family" to just...shortcut all of that and provide a cheap excuse as to why the heroes give the villains of the show the time of day. I know I bitch a lot about how the show keeps bringing in a succession of The Baddest Villains Ever to provide a reason for why the heroes and original villains ally, but "we're family" has become a close second in terms of the show trying to justify why Charming and Snow and Emma feel at all warmly inclined toward Regina and Rumpel when those two people are literally responsible for ruining their lives. (And I hate that, because at the end of the day the show is basically sending the message that abuse victims should be stuck with their abusers if they're family. Doesn't matter what your abuser does to you, if they're family, you just have to put up with it.)

 

So the problem isn't even that the idea of "family" becomes meaningless because it hasn't been earned (has in fact been anti-earned)--it's that "family" is trotted out to cover a number of serious writing sins and things that actually make no logical sense. Regina tries to destroy the town? Well, we can't punish her, she's family. Emma has legitimate beef with Regina that should make developing a weird friendship/co-parenting relationship nigh-impossible until they sit down and hash out their issues? Well, they're family, they're just stuck with each other. Regina tries to memory-potion Henry? Well, she's his mom, it doesn't matter how she abuses him! Rumpel tries to kill Henry? He's family, you can't stop a kid from seeing his grandpa! Charming, who's always been more pragmatic than anyone else when it comes to Regina, inexplicably drinks the Regina Kool-Aid? It's because they're family! Etc etc etc.

 

So imo, it's this weird thing where the writers totally want to claim that they're writing a "found family" show, but they've forgotten about/don't want to write the "found" part of it.  And that, in turn, just undercuts the entire notion of family in the first place.

 

(I honestly think that's what hurt the Snow character the most in S2--she was made the primary bearer of the "Regina is family" banner even as Regina killed person after person and did evil deed after evil deed. It's completely illogical, and it makes Snow look like the Truest Stupid--but the writers literally didn't have any reason for Snowing not dealing with Regina other than "she's family," so.)

[Shanna Marie]

Breaking into her castle in 3.13 was yet another suicidal moment on Regina's part because she has lost Henry and wanted to put herself under the sleeping curse.

I did notice in my rewatch that after Leopold's death, while Regina is faking being nice, Snow hugged her in a very genuine way, and yet she knew right away that the Huntsman was assigned to kill her, so this seems to go way back, that Snow has always loved Regina but apparently has always at least sensed that Regina hated her. She also knew exactly why Regina hated her, and it seems like she actually does feel at fault. She's apologized, apparently repeatedly, including writing that letter for the Huntsman to deliver. I guess she's been warped from an early age and can't seem to make herself hate Regina, no matter what. It seems to be a reflection of the relationship between Cora and Regina, where Regina still wanted to please Cora, no matter how terribly Cora had abused her and no matter how many murder attempts there were between them. It's entirely possible that Snow would be angry if someone killed Regina, even in self-defense. She probably wouldn't go on a revenge spree because that's not her style, but she would be hurt and disappointed or would maybe insist the killer be brought to justice.

 

Going back to the subject of the fairyback plots, I think one reason it worked in season one to have the flashbacks be the A plot that actually moved, with the Storybrooke plots tying into whatever was going on with the fairybacks, was that there wasn't actually a problem to be solved or a goal in the present day that anyone but Henry believed in. We knew that they needed to break the curse, and Regina was trying to get rid of Emma so she couldn't break the curse, but Emma wasn't trying to break the curse. That meant there really was nothing driving the present plot. In subsequent seasons, the stuff they needed to take action on was in the present -- they had to get back from the Enchanted Forest, stop Cora, rescue Henry, stop Zelena. Of course, that doesn't mean that there couldn't have been an arc goal in the flashbacks, but clearly the writers' focus was on the present story rather than telling their version of the fairytales.

 

And speaking of Henry believing in the curse ... as much as we complain about Regina being able to give a True Love's Kiss without a heart, that love has to be mutual for the kiss to work, and I'm finding it baffling that there could be True Love from Henry's perspective, given that he believed his mother was the Evil Queen -- and was proved to be right! He knew all the evil things she'd done, she'd been gaslighting him, she'd deliberately hurt him repeatedly as a way of scoring points against Emma, took things away from him that she knew he loved in order to assert her control over him, tried to kill his birth mother and nearly killed him, and was planning to kill the entire town. I could imagine him rebuilding a relationship with her, but getting to True Love with all that baggage? He's not even like Snow, who never seems to have stopped loving Regina. He very clearly did not love Regina and saw her as the enemy not that long ago.