S04.E05: First Of His Name 2014.05.04

[arry the orphan]

It was Littlefinger who told Ned about Ser Hugh. He also said Ned should not talk to him directly, but send someone he trusts. Perhaps LF knew that Ser Hugh would refuse to talk to anyone who isn't a knight or a lord.

Edited May 5, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Shadowlass]

I find it more amusing than annoying that Littlefinger is the author of practically every bad deed in Westeros, because most of the things he's being revealed as being behind weren't attributed to many different sources, but mostly to the Lannisters--and most of this stuff was regarded as completely reasonable to trace to a single source, the Lannisters. Now it's just moved from one source to another. And honestly, I love that part of what's attributed to the ruthless Lannisters is simply detritus from LF's long climb to the top. The Lannisters are powerful and ruthless, but they're also a bogeyman he's simultaneously building up and using as misdirection. How that would chafe them if they knew.

 

So two big things have jumped out at me since I saw the episode.  First, I call bullshit on the surprise revelation about the Lannisters being broke.  I could buy into the Master of Coin and the Lannister kids not knowing that Daddy was using a credit card and not a debit card, if that's all it was.  But it isn't.  We're talking about gold mines.  Lots of gold mines.  And as Little Finger said, commoners like to gossip about pretty noble girls over a pint.  They also like to talk shop.  We're supposed to believe that for three years miners in Casterly Rock have NOT been talking about the lack of gold they're finding.  That it isn't common knowledge at least among miners by now.  And that every noble family in all of Westeros hasn't heard this gossip yet?  There's no way.  Not with a morsel that juicy.

 

I wonder if he simply killed the miners to prevent them from talking, like pyramid workers. I don't think wholesale slaughter of a few of his own villages would bother Tywin a bit.

[Snowblack]

Thanks Arry.  So I guess it could be LF throwing Ned off his trail.  I still don't like it.

[arry the orphan]

So what are the odds that Oberyn has eight daughters (but no sons??). I hope there isn't a Craster thing going on here, and he just didn't mention his sons.

Edited May 5, 2014 by arry the orphan

[MrMicrophone]

Shadowlass,

Well, the Mountain did horrible things. And Tywin did (I think) turncoat against the last Targaryen King. And Jaime did kill the last Targ King.

And Jaime did throw a young boy off a tower.

 

The Lannisters had motivation for a lot of this -- but, Littlefinger acted while the Lannisters mostly sat on their hands. [still think Cersei schemed to

get Robert killed, but it wasn't directly by her hand.]

[ChocButterfly]

In Season 1 it looked like Varys was the big puppet master orchestrating the Dothraki invasion and bringing war to the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Taking this to the Speculation thread.

[WhiteStumbler]

I feel HORRIBLE for Hodor! He looked stricken as he looked down at his blood-stained hands. Poor Hodor!!

 

I know it would have been total fanservice, but I would have loved to have seen Ghost and Summer sniffing each other thru the bars of their respective cages.

 

Only some redshirt Nights Watch brothers died at Krasters (plus the traitorous NW bunch)?!? Amazing! I thought it was going to be a bloodbath for some good guys. After the cataclysm that resulted the last time Stark nearly reunited with Stark, I thought Jojen, Meera, Hodor, and Jon Snuh were potential deaders (plus a direwolf or two). At the end everyone important walks away? Woohoo! Rast: DEAD! Karl: DEAD! Locke: DEAD!

 

Still trying to wrap my mind around LF being the Emperor Palpatine of Westeros. The screams that erupted from my viewing party at that reveal were bested only by Lyssa's screams on her wedding night. And (apparently) it is time to stop calling him Littlefinger. Averagefinger at worst, possibly Podfinger.

 

Thanks for helping me see that Cersei is playing a long game with her niceness.

I gasped when Margaery started down the "I won't even know what to call you..." path.

Me: 'Don't say sister, don't say sister, don't say sister.'

Margaery: 'Sister...?'

Me: 'Uh oh, this can't get any worse.'

Margaery: 'Or mother?'

Me: 'OMFG!'

[stillshimpy]

Thanks for helping me see that Cersei is playing a long game with her niceness.

I gasped when Margaery started down the "I won't even know what to call you..." path.

Me: 'Don't say sister, don't say sister, don't say sister.'

Margaery: 'Sister...?'

Me: 'Uh oh, this can't get any worse.'

Margaery: 'Or mother?'

Me: 'OMFG!'

 

Echoed here by us, WhiteStumbler, but that was the moment it started to become clear that "Ooookay, Cersei is up to something, likely involving Margaery's death"  Cersei is the woman who threatened Margaery's entire family with death for the mere suggestion of a "sister" (you'd think Margaery would remember that "Rains of Castamere" history lesson  -- which by the way, means that Littlefinger isn't building up the Lannister terror, just trading on their earned reputation) . 

 

Also, Cersei talking to anyone about Joffrey's death as being something of a lucky escape and how Cersei was shocked by the things Joffrey did, was another big red neon sign, in the shape of a flag, blinking above her head.  That Cersei would ever speak of her "darling boy" in a disparaging manner, and to Margaery, no less? 

 

Yeah, Cersei is planning a bloodbath of some sort.  

Edited May 5, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Yeah, Cersei is planning a bloodbath of some sort.  

I was fascinated by how much more terrifying Cersei Acting Nice is than Cersei Acting Normal.

 

Unrelated: Did Littlefinger want a large, public wedding (with "all the Lords of The Vale") so that no one can dispute the marriage after he kills Lyssa and conveniently steps in to be Robin's new Regent?

[stillshimpy]

Unrelated: Did Littlefinger want a large, public wedding (with "all the Lords of The Vale") so that no one can dispute the marriage after he kills Lyssa and conveniently steps in to be Robin's new Regent?

 

I think mostly he just wanted to delay having to consummate their marriage for as long as humanly possible, but also, I would assume because he does plan on offing them both.  If both Lyssa and Robyn die then shouldn't her next closest living relative or her husband be the new Lord of the Vale?  Robyn, thank the sweet lord's of mercy, is not a King and therefore not a Regent (head of the monarchy), just a Lord. 

 

And yeah, I don't think he's going to let that addled child live. I became even more convinced of that when Demented Robyn was so pleased to see him and immediately dropped the glass bird down through that hole.  Might have been a Mockingbird...might have been a Robin, either way, I don't think that simpleton is long for this world.  

[North Star]

If both Lyssa and Robyn die then shouldn't her next closest living relative or her husband be the new Lord of the Vale?  Robyn, thank the sweet lord's of mercy, is not a King and therefore not a Regent (head of the monarchy), just a Lord.

Lysa is the regent for her minor son, so if Robin died, the Eyrie and the Vale would pass to whoever the next-closest Arryn is.

[stillshimpy]

Are there any other Arryns?  For some reason I didn't think there were.  Mainly because Robert and Ned grew up with Jon Arryn, who apparently didn't marry until late in life.  Did any other Arryns make it through the Rebellion that we know of, or have heard about?  

 

I thought it was down to Jon Arryn, Crazypants Lyssa and Robyn, the Demented Sole Surviving Arryn.  

 

Wouldn't it be more like "All the Male Starks are dead, so we can name whomever we like to be the Lord of Winterfell?"  When Theon took Winterfell he made poor Luwin serve him because Luwin was bound to the Lord of Winterfell, not the Starks.   

 

If Lyssa dies, the heir to the Vale also dies, then if there aren't any other Arryns lying about....and apparently that can happen ...then Petry should be the Lord of the Vale by virtue of having married the last Lady of the Vale. All that relies on Robyn being quite dead though. 

 

regent for her minor son

 

Again, Robyn's not a Prince so it shouldn't be quite like that.   He is the heir to the Vale and his mother rules the Vale until he reaches the age of majority, but for instance Bran was the Lord of Winterfell...the acting Lord, when Robb was off with Catelyn and the other King of the North Crew. 

Edited May 5, 2014 by stillshimpy

[North Star]

Are there any other Arryns?  For some reason I didn't think there were.  Mainly because Robert and Ned grew up with Jon Arryn, who apparently didn't marry until late in life.  Did any other Arryns make it through the Rebellion that we know of, or have heard about?  

 

I thought it was down to Jon Arryn, Crazypants Lyssa and Robyn, the Demented Sole Surviving Arryn.  

 

Wouldn't it be more like "All the Male Starks are dead, so we can name whomever we like to be the Lord of Winterfell?"  When Theon took Winterfell he made poor Luwin serve him because Luwin was bound to the Lord of Winterfell, not the Starks.   

 

If Lyssa dies, the heir to the Vale also dies, then if there aren't any other Arryns lying about....and apparently that can happen ...then Petry should be the Lord of the Vale by virtue of having married the last Lady of the Vale. All that relies on Robyn being quite dead though. 

They haven't said whether there are other Arryns, but especially given that the female line can inherit (see: Sansa, who most people think is Lady of Winterfell right now, with Tyrion the Lord consort or whatever you want to call it; and Margaery, who is apparently next in line to Highgarden after Loras, per last season), you would think there'd be somebody else out there in the succession.  But these noble families are all as big or as small as the plot requires, so I guess we'll see.  It's possible Robin is the last person in the blood succession, which would probably lead to the Eyrie being vacant and the crown able to name whomever they want to the position.

[stillshimpy]

No actually, we don't have any reason to believe that women can inherit.  Sansa has been said to be the "key to the North", not that she's the heir to Winterfell. Tywin planned on naming Tyrion the Lord of Winterfell because a holding without an heir is the crown's to bestow.    Bolton wanted to make sure all the Starks were dead because of the Warden of the North business, and presumably because he wants to lay claim to Winterfell also.  

 

It's actually been a big deal that Dany had to convince anyone to follow her.  Nothing is inherited through the female side, that we've been told about.  

Edited May 5, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Starving Writer]

What the hell did Jojen just do?  I thought for sure he was going to turn into a human flame-thrower, but the guy's hand was aflame, right?

 

I don't think so. It was part of his vision. He was seeing the raid on Craster's Keep and seeing the keep burning to the ground, I think. He was playing when imaginary fire.

 

 

I had a different interpretation of that scene.  We know that Jojen has the "sight" and can see the future.  I interpreted that as Jojen seeing his own (and probably Meera's as well) death (by fire) at some point in the future. Something about the way that Meera said "How will we know the end? and Jojen replied "You'll know" as he's watching his hand on fire.  

[Shadowlass]

Shadowlass,

Well, the Mountain did horrible things. And Tywin did (I think) turncoat against the last Targaryen King. And Jaime did kill the last Targ King.

And Jaime did throw a young boy off a tower.

 

The Lannisters had motivation for a lot of this -- but, Littlefinger acted while the Lannisters mostly sat on their hands. [still think Cersei schemed to

get Robert killed, but it wasn't directly by her hand.]

 

Well, yeah. I'm not arguing that Littlefinger is responsible every bad thing in GoT, or that the Lannisters aren't bloodthirsty. I'm saying their well-earned reputation for bloodthirstiness makes a nice cover for his own bad deeds.

 

Lord, I hope Margaery doesn't get killed. Her returning to the sister/mother conversation with Cersei seemed unlike her in its naivete. She's such a canny operator, although she's never has really been dialed into Cersei the way she is with others. But as careless as that was? I have to believe she has something up her sleeve. She's married and survived two kings, and escaped a relationship with Joffrey unscathed. I have to believe she's smarter than that.

 

If Margaery and/or Loras dies, the shit will really hit the fan. Olenna would go bonkers, and even after the wedding spending she presumably has plenty of money to spend on war, while the Lannisters are broke and have warring for years.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Shadowlass

[gingerella]

I was fascinated by how much more terrifying Cersei Acting Nice is than Cersei Acting Normal.

Ha! No shit, right? I think this is a literal case of "killing her with kindness".

 

As for the Lysa/Robin/Sansa trifecta of gloom, I see this playing out any number of ways:

 

1. LF offs Lysa (let's face it, he is a weak man who used poison as he weapon), that leaves Robin as King of the Vale, with LF as Regent and real controller of the Vale.  This frees up LF to have his way with Sansa because what would/could Robin do about that?  Unless...unless Robin developed a deep fondness/crush on Sansa and saw LF tormenting her and Robin made LF "fly", which to be honest? Would be super awesome.

 

2. LF offs both Lysa and Robin, thus freeing him up to marry the loudly proclaimed virgin, Sansa, as his Queen of the Vale. That? Would be a big ol jizz fest for LF considering he never got over not being able to schtup Catelyn before she chose the Stark's instead of him. Marrying Cat's daughter and impregnating her with his offspring seems like the ultimate "HAHA, I WON, I WON!" move from a vindictive, spiteful person like LF.

 

3. LF offs Lysa and Robin goes batshit crazy and makes LF "fly", thus leaving Sansa sort of a prisoner with Robin. Not sure she would know what to do about that situation or if she would be able to make a getaway at all. Perhaps she could tell Robin she was going to "get help" or something like that and he would let her go out of the Vale with a traveling party or something, who knows...Maaaybe, she stays put at the Vale and as the WW and Winter both move Southward, Jon Snow & Co. end up at the Eeryie at some point as they make their way South? I haven't thought through that last bit but perhaps Sansa ends up being a non-sexual Queen with Robin?  Ick, just typing that last bit skeeved me out!

[stillshimpy]

King of the Vale

 

Pretty sure the Vale is a holding within the seven Kingdoms, not a Kingdom unto itself.  So Lord of the Vale.  Lyssa is basically the Dowager Countess in this equation, not the ruler of the Vale.  Robyn is, with his mother acting, again not as Regent, but in charge until he reaches the age of Majority, which seems to not be a very official thing (see Bran handing out pronouncements at Winterfell).  It's only important because that's why Littlefinger would want to kill them both.  

 

This becomes important because it's at the whim of the actual Crown, which is now Tommen in name, but Tywin in actuality.  Twyin, who gave Harrenhal to Littlefinger. A holding without an heir is under the influence of the crown to appoint a new Lord, that is if they are going by the rules of this world and they appear to be if there's no heir.   But it's also unassailable, so if Littlefinger can seize it, he's pretty much got it.  It's why no one could take it away from Lysa Arryn by force.  

 

Just as Jon Arryn wasn't the King of anything, neither is anyone at the Vale.  

 

By the way, is the Vale where Robert and Ned grew up?  Or did Jon Arryn have a different estate and then was given the Vale after Robert became King (of the Seven Kingdoms)?  

 

It's actually a little important too in that apparently Dorne does have their own Regents.  This makes them unusual from what I can tell. 

Edited May 5, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

We've long believed that Jon Arryn was murdered, and maybe by Jaime and/or Cersei.  Why: because we first meet the guilty pair acting guilty about "what he knew," and "what if he told."  Then we hear that Arryn's wife -- our hero's sister-in-law -- believes that the guilty pair did kill her husband; she asks our hero to seek the truth and restore justice in the realm.  (Oy: I felt Ned was being manipulated and later wondered about Littlefinger but then roamed so far as to suspect Luwin and perhaps all the Maesters of being in on the plot.  Vey.)  Whereupon the guilty pair are caught fucking each other and Jaime throws the witness off the tower. Closing credits, pilot.  

 

So why did Littlefinger do it?  Or rather, as is his way, conspire to have someone else do it?  (He even gave Varys's spy Roz to Joffrey to kill.)

 

1. Lyssa thinks, to free her to marry him.  You go right on thinking that, Lyssa (if you do: you may be mad but are you crazy?).
2. Certainly not, to protect the Jaime/Cersei secret...or?  Did Arryn even guess?  Petyr sent Ned to Pycelle who showed Ned the book, claiming that Arryn had examined it...but did he?  
3. To draw Ned as Hand to King's Landing, and give him a murder to solve, leading to a suspicion that could only endanger Ned and start a war.
4. Which would have happened even if Cat hadn't arrested Tyrion, and taken him to await trial at the Eyrie, where Lyssa instead put Tyrion on trial at once for...yikes...the crime of killing Jon Arryn.  No wonder she was looking for a speedy verdict.
5. So I'm guessing, the whole subplot with Tyrion at the Eyrie was an incredibly fortuitous sideshow.  Lyssa didn't give a damn that she was killing a man she knew was innocent.  Why, beyond orders she may have received from Baelish and her desire to convict someone else: hates halfmen, hates Lannisters, hates her sister?   
6. How much does Sansa know about that whole shitshow?  How much did Tyrion or anyone else tell her, and how much did she believe?
7. Tyrion knows that Littlefinger cooked the books, for years.  Is his second unjust arrest just another lucky break for Baelish?

[Chris Ashe]

It's obvious to me that Sansa is LF's weakness and throw in Tyrion's line last episode about Sansa not being a killer yet...and I say she will kill Littlefinger, probably just when he thinks he has the keys to everything.

[WhiteStumbler]

Pallas: And would Littlefinger's "new friends" the Tyrells have given Littlefinger the "Key to the North" knowingly? Or was that a nice bit of improv by LF? It doesn't seem likely that Granny Tyrell would be bested in a contest of wits.

And where is Varys in all this? There has to be a capable schemer in KL to balance Baelish. Help us, Varys, you're our only hope!

[stillshimpy]

Also, it's Dorne, so there's no telling whether or not they'd all be from the same mother, since apparently they're a little less bunched up about sexuality there and legitimacy.  So maybe all of his daughter just hang out together.  

Edited May 6, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DemosthenesKey]

I think his paramour said that bastards are called Sands? Her name is Elaria Sands, I think. So they do have SOME kind of "you're not actually biologically so-and-so's kid", it's just that they don't care. Which I admittedly kind of like. 

 

In terms of the Man With a Plan (And Also a Skeezy Goatee): I think that Littlefinger just got incredibly, ridiculously lucky. What we know so far is - He killed (by proxy) Jon Arryn and had Lysa tell her sister the Lannisters did it. With how much the Starks and Lannisters apparently hated each other already, maybe he figured that they'd EVENTUALLY end up going away at each other hammer and tongs. 

 

But then whoops, Bran fell out a window and refused to stay dead and/or comatose, Cat screwed up and kidnapped a Lannister, and Littlefinger (no doubt cackling behind that small and fuzzy beard of his) gleefully pointed Dead Ned towards how suspiciously blonde all his best friend's kids are. The first two I simply refuse he could have planned for. It would make him unbelievable for me, and I prefer to stick with the belief that he just got a couple lucky breaks that started an inevitable war early.

[ChocButterfly]

Gingerella,  I think it'll be scenario 1: Littlefinger kills Lysa and gets control of The Vale, because let's face it, Robyn is a bit, well challenged. He'll be easy to control and he already calls Littlefinger "uncle Petyr". Then LF is free to do whatever he pleases with Sansa. He doesn't even have to kill Robyn. It can't be said enough, poor Sansa.

 

Although this Littlefinger planned Arryn' s death plot is as convoluted as the necklace thing. Like many of you have mentioned, there's no way he could have foreseen Bran' s fall or Tyrion' s kidnapping. I have no idea what he gained with Arryn' s death. 

 

Who the hell is Sir Hugh??

[gingerella]

BTW, did anyone else find it odd when Dany said she would "fix" the issue of the freed cities in Slave Bay reverting back to slavery by becoming their ruler/Queen?  I mean, shit girl, isn't being a Queen a type of enslavement to those serving you?!  HelLO?!

[Pallas]

And would Littlefinger's "new friends" the Tyrells have given Littlefinger the "Key to the North" knowingly? Or was that a nice bit of improv by LF? It doesn't seem likely that Granny Tyrell would be bested in a contest of wits.

And where is Varys in all this? There has to be a capable schemer in KL to balance Baelish. Help us, Varys, you're our only hope! -- WhiteStumbler

 

I'm still unsure about why either Littlefinger or Olenna needed the other to kill Joffrey.  

 

Okay, so Littlefinger uses proxies, and he wanted to be "in the Vale" (in the harbor) when the killing happened.  Olenna needed Littlefinger to secure the poison (?), suggest or approach Dontos (?), set up Sansa as the patsy and then steal away with her?  I suppose all of the latter, especially the last. Someone had to be set up to take the fall, someone other than, "Who wouldn't?", someone with with a motive palatable to the Lannisters.  Littlefinger perhaps suggested the traitors' daughter/sister Sansa, and soothed any of Olenna's possible scruples by assuring her that the girl would be safe with him.  Safe, perhaps, to marry Loras down the road, in some rosy future without Tywin or Tyrion. Littlefinger couldn't pretend to have any designs on the girl himself, since he was betrothed to Lysa.   As long as Sansa was removed from bearing Lannister heirs, and (presumably) as long as she stood some chance of surviving, Olenna was probably okay with the plan.  

 

Another wrinkle here is that Littlefinger knows that Arya too may be alive, since he happened upon her serving as cupbearer (!) to Tywin. That's exactly how lucky Littlefinger is.   

 

What he got out of having Lysa poison Arryn, ChocButterfly, seems to be three-fold: (1) Created a job opening for a new Hand, a job he knew Robert would offer to his old friend, so that (2) Ned would come to King's Landing and Littlefinger could set him hunting after the big secret, so that (3) after doing what honor dictated, Ned would be killed or banished and the Crown de-stabilized. Arryn's death was Littlefinger's weapon against Ned: another murder by proxy, one that came with a war attached.  And once the war was underway, it was in Renly's camp, over (most of) Ned's dead body, that Littlefinger entreated Cat to begin anew with him. That's exactly how sensitive Littlefinger is.

 

So what looked like a daunting string of Lannister victories is looking more like a cascade of Baelish machinations.  I'm with you, WhiteStumbler.  SOS to the Spider and his Sorceror in a Box. 

[North Star]

No actually, we don't have any reason to believe that women can inherit.  Sansa has been said to be the "key to the North", not that she's the heir to Winterfell.

Tywin in episode 3.05:  "The Young Wolf has lost half his army; his days are numbered.  Theon Greyjoy murdered both his brothers.  That makes Sansa Stark the heir to Winterfell."

 

Even if he hadn't said that, what else would "the key to the North" mean apart from being heir?  Likewise, Margaery has been identified as Loras' heir; hence Tywin's coercing Loras into marrying Cersei by threatening to name him to the Kingsguard otherwise, which would make Margaery heir, and hence her children by Joffrey, which would merge House Tyrell into "House Baratheon" in the long-term.

[Llywela]

BTW, did anyone else find it odd when Dany said she would "fix" the issue of the freed cities in Slave Bay reverting back to slavery by becoming their ruler/Queen?  I mean, shit girl, isn't being a Queen a type of enslavement to those serving you?!  HelLO?!

Not really - no more than becoming Queen of Westeros would make its people her slaves. I saw that scene as Dany taking responsibility for the city-states she has conquered, a positive sign of growing maturity. She has rampaged across Slaver's Bay leaving devastation in her wake, and has now had it demonstrated to her that if you remove a system of government but leave a vacuum in its place, the old status quo pretty soon reasserts itself. So she has decided to take responsibility instead of leaving the job half done. It's a sign that she does actually care about the people and places she has freed as more than just waystations on her long march to Westeros.

[arry the orphan]

 

Who the hell is Sir Hugh??

 

I also have to check the Character index quite often before posting. :) Ser Hugh was Jon Arryns squire. In the first season Littlefinger pointed out that Ser Hugh was close to Jon Arryn and could have been the one to poison him. Ned sent his captain of the guard to  talk to him before the tournament, but he refused because Ned's captain wasn't a knight like him. Next scene - Ser Hugh jousts against the Mountain and gets killed. Ned wonders how Ser Hugh got the gold for his armor (he was knighted not long before and squires don't get paid, so did the Lannister pay him?) and if his death was really an accident (Mountain is a Lannister man)?

 

What he got out of having Lysa poison Arryn, ChocButterfly, seems to be three-fold: (1) Created a job opening for a new Hand, a job he knew Robert would offer to his old friend, so that (2) Ned would come to King's Landing and Littlefinger could set him hunting after the big secret, so that (3) after doing what honor dictated, Ned would be killed or banished and the Crown de-stabilized.

 

Thats a really good analysis! But there is one more thing that might have happened before the first episode: Jon Arryn found out about the three Lannister incest kids. He told Cersei and Jaime that he would not tell Robert their secret in order to prevent a war (therefore they talk in ep1 wheter or not he told anyone before his death). LF (via Lysa Arryn) learned about this and decided to kill Jon Arryn to set up what you describes.

Edited May 6, 2014 by arry the orphan

[stillshimpy]

Even if he hadn't said that, what else would "the key to the North" mean apart from being heir?

 

Actually it could easily mean as a peacemaking, conciliatory gesture.  A marriage marking an alliance between families.  Marrying a Stark to a Lannister marries Southern and Northern interests.  Also, it sounds a lot more like if all the male heirs are dead, the woman becomes an heir and her husband then inherits by default.  

 

Tywin also said something about not naming Tyrion as the heir of Casterly Rock.  So I'm not positive what the hard and fast rules are, but if they are going by the basic rules that governed England -- and they appear to be -- then woman can't officially inherit. 

 

But if the all the male Arryns are dead, passing on to the female line, then his closest living female relative should  the heir.  Not his wife, if his heir was dead.  

 

By the way, when I woke up this morning, one of the things I started thinking about was how a House's point of pride/Claim to fame contained their downfall.   

 

The Starks died practically at the hands of their own honor.  Robb certainly died because he too easily believed that Walder Frey was incapable of the level of deceit he perpetrated.   

 

"The Lannisters Always Pay Their Debts" have been turned into "The Lannisters: Maybe it's Time for a Strategic Default on the Mortgage?"  

Edited May 6, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Glory]

Gingerella, I think it'll be scenario 1: Littlefinger kills Lysa and gets control of The Vale, because let's face it, Robyn is a bit, well challenged. He'll be easy to control and he already calls Littlefinger "uncle Petyr". Then LF is free to do whatever he pleases with Sansa. He doesn't even have to kill Robyn. It can't be said enough, poor Sansa.

I'd love it if Littlefinger offs Lisa and then Sansa offs Littlefinger.

THEN - Sansa decides to take over as Robin's ward and sends a raven to Tyrion (who will be found innocent) that she has secured the Vale for him. Then Tyrion and Pod come and live at the Vale and Sansa and Tyrion live happily ever after!

Lol I can't even type it with a straight face!

[MrMicrophone]

arry and all:

Jon Arryn had to have at least been "thinking" about the whole Jaime and Cersei angle [maybe he was tasked with looking after the bastards, and thus might have had inklings at any point, and thus why they were worrying], though he Couldn't have told them he'd keep his mouth shut! If so, then they wouldn't be speculating afterwards.

[stillshimpy]

Gendry remembered Jon Arryn visiting him.  Jon Arryn did discover the twincest, just based on that.  Ned asked Gendry about what the man who visited him had asked, and that man was Jon Arryn, right? 

 

Also, the reveal that Jon Arryn was poisoned by his wife finally made me feel bad for the poor old, dead dude.  He seems to have had less than stellar judgment (I'll be fleeing the Understatement Police for that one, I'm sure) , but it turns out his entire life was lived in service to a Kingdom that was the opposite of everything he believed in.  

Edited May 6, 2014 by stillshimpy

[North Star]

So I'm not positive what the hard and fast rules are, but if they are going by the basic rules that governed England -- and they appear to be -- then woman can't officially inherit.

Tywin explicitly said Sansa was heir, though, and identified Margaery in the same terms.

 

A woman's husband in a time like this could, of course, exert considerable influence through his marriage, especially in Sansa's hypothetical case, where she was a prisoner and the point of the marriage was to effectively transfer her powers over to Tyrion.  Or, as we subsequently found out, to her and Tyrion's adult son, since Tywin apparently wasn't any fonder of letting Tyrion run the North than letting Sansa do it.

 

Actually, that raises a new question about what Tywin's plans for the North going forward are now.  Bolton was named Warden temporarily, with the understand that the Lannisters would get it once Tywin had raised somebody he trusted to take up the job (nobody ever raised the issue that there was like a 50/50 shot that any child Tyrion and Sansa had would also be a dwarf, though I suppose they could have just kept producing them until one who wasn't was delivered), but that would seem to be out the window at this point.

[arry the orphan]

 

Actually, that raises a new question about what Tywin's plans for the North going forward are now.

I replied in the Speculation thread.

[stillshimpy]

Tywin explicitly said Sansa was heir, though, and identified Margaery in the same terms.

A woman's husband in a time like this could, of course, exert considerable influence through his marriage, especially in Sansa's hypothetical case, where she was a prisoner and the point of the marriage was to effectively transfer her powers over to Tyrion.  Or, as we subsequently found out, to her and Tyrion's adult son, since Tywin apparently wasn't any fonder of letting Tyrion run the North than letting Sansa do it.

 

Those are both fair points, North Star as is "What happens in the North now?"  I guess I haven't ever given that any kind of weight, simply there seems to be no evidence of it and it seems to contradict some of the things we've seen with Dany.  

 

I guess it's also possible that it is just a retcon within the story itself. But then again, when Lyssa was talking about what Catelyn's role as oldest daughter was, (to make a good match) that further supported the "Girls are meant for this, boys for that" and then Night's watch is "Father no sons"  and we've very much been led to believe outside of that conversation that women do not inherit.  

 

Also, I can't actually recall Tywin saying that, but that's not anything remarkable, I wasn't paying too much attention at that particular moment, because I was dying on Tyrion's behalf over the use of the word "waddle" . 

Edited May 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

God yes, I'd forgotten that, shimpy -- Tywin's digging the knife into his youngest.  But it's true, he did say that Sansa was "heir to Winterfell"; I remember its catching my ear at the time.  

 

So my guess is that girls are for this, boys are for that, unless there are no boys at all in the immediate male line.  (For example, Anne the Princess Royal could still inherit the throne from her mother, but only if her brothers, their children and their grandchildren -- including the females -- all predecease her.  Where once she was second in the line of succession, she now stands 11th. Or rather sits, astride her horse, with not a care about that in the world.) 

 

Sansa's late nurse the Septa told Sansa that her son by Joffrey would inherit the throne.  When Sansa asked, What if she only bore him daughters?, I believe the good woman changed the subject.  Perhaps she was thinking of Stannis; perhaps she was avoiding her own apprehension that Sansa would be put aside; perhaps she believed the thought itself was a curse. 

[stillshimpy]

But it's true, he did say that Sansa was "heir to Winterfell"; I remember its catching my ear at the time.

 

Thanks, Pallas, I didn't want to rewatch that scene.  It really bothers me.  

 

That's interesting, but again, I'm just not sure it's definitive of anything.  

 

I just don't think there are very strong rules after the "sons" option runs out.

 

Or "all male relatives" .  The Night's watch was specific about "I will father no sons" , in the this story Craster sacrifices his sons and keeps all the daughters for nefarious purposes.  Admittedly, this is also the world where apparently all Targaryen children were slaughtered, regardless of gender.  I had assumed that was because they didn't want Targ supporters rallying around anyone. 

[MrMicrophone]

shimp and Sackett,

Yeah, that seems reasonable. Sons make a clear line of succession, that nearly no one is going to protest (except if the boy is craven or mad -- See Sam).

Daughters and husbands of daughters have a claim if there's no sons -- but so do half a dozen other folks (uncles, more distant relatives), and so it's only

if the other folks are minded to listen (say by a great big Lannister Army), that the girls have a lock-and-shut claim.

[WhiteStumbler]

Found the dialogue re: Sansa and succession. It wasn't in the "waddle" speech, but when Cersei is nearly clapping her hands with glee at Tyrion's impending fate...

 

Tywin: I bring them into the royal fold and this is how they repay me, by trying to steal the key to the North out from under me?
Tyrion: Sansa is the key to the North? I seem to remember she has an older brother.
Tywin: The Karstarks have marched home. The young wolf has lost half his army. His days are numbered. Theon Greyjoy murdered both his brothers. That makes Sansa Stark the heir to Winterfell. And I'm not about to hand her over to the Tyrells.

From Kissed By Fire S3E5

 

I still think A Show should have said "...any son of Sansa Stark the heir...", but that isn't what they said, so I will accept it until A Show says otherwise.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, and I wonder if it is because -- if Tywin was right about Bran, Rickon and even Arya being dead -- that would make Sansa the only person alive actually related to Starks?  Benjen Stark being in the Night's Watch and all other Starks having been murdered by various Kings?  That would also have it make at least something resembling sense that all Targ children were murdered regardless of gender. 

 

Although, I actually don't know that, I've just assumed there were Targaryen children of both genders.  Did Aemon say something either way?  I think he said "even the little children"?  Either way, I also remember Tywin telling Tyrion he had to knock Sansa up to get that done, so I understand that's it right there in the dialogue, but I also feel like the majority of the story contradicts that.  Even stuff we just saw with Crazypants Lyssa.  

 

So, here's a testament to how deeply I'm not caring about Dany's current story:  Oh, okay.  She'll stay in Mereen, rule over there for a while and wear a cuter dress while striking regal poses.  Have at!  Sometimes I can't even believe she was one of my favorite characters in the first season.  

Edited May 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

Sansa is to marry Robyn, a stunted boy-baby. Poor girl will never marry someone taller than her.

[WhiteStumbler]

I sort of like that Dany is Facing Challenges and Making Decisions. Her arc is nowhere near as compelling as S1, but better than S2 (Where Muh Dragonz At?) and on-course to be better than S3 (her fist-pumping high point in S3 for me was sacking Astapor and "stealing" the Unsullied - the shot of a Targaryen leading an army WITH DRAGONS for the first time in hundreds of years was awesome IMO).

 

It is hard to stay invested at times with her story because it doesn't tie into the narrative across the Narrow Sea (yet?), and most of what I love about A Show is the mud and blood and politics. Dany is unaffected by all of that (because: dragons). But I am genuinely into her advisers, esp Greyworm (Torgonudo is what it sounds like in valeryian, which for some reason I think is very cool) and Jorah, Guardian of the Friendzone. Barristan, after his emergence from the plot rabbit-hole he was in, has been sort of a let-down so far, and I am still waiting to see what is up with Nu!Faabio. I know the new actor from Treme, so it is hard for me to not see Sonny the musician.

 

Mostly, I like that Dany decided to rule, rather than conquer. She had an opportunity to strike at KL, but didn't. She is getting what Renly said to Ned in Season1: "Yes, (Stannis) is a good soldier, everyone knows that; so was Robert! Tell me something, do you still believe good soldiers make good kings?"

 

BTW I am sort of miffed that no one mentioned the damn dragons during that War Council. 9200 soldiers PLUS flying flamethrowers! Maybe not the WMDs they will be in the future, but they helped take Astapor, so they are lethal.

[Pallas]

So, here's a testament to how deeply I'm not caring about Dany's current story:  Oh, okay.  She'll stay in Mereen, rule over there for a while and wear a cuter dress while striking regal poses.  Have at!  Sometimes I can't even believe she was one of my favorite characters in the first season.

 

I know!  For me it's because Dany no longer has any interaction worth mentioning with anyone else.  She alone, among all the characters, is unchallenged. We don't ever catch her do anything other than posture, stand back-lit near windows while her advisors position themselves like bocci balls before her, and issue orders. She has no peer and no peers.  Does she never read a book, hear a song, go for a ride, play a game?  I have no idea how she feels about a damn thing.  Yes, her position has left her deeply isolated, but isolation itself is not that hard to portray: let us feel it with her.  Give us a glimpse of her inner life.

 

We see almost nothing of Tywin except his speaking in the imperative mode.  But we see him react, we see him fend off the nonsense that is Other People: we see him give us to understand that this is how he views them, and the world.  We see inside him just enough to recoil and want to see more, simultaneously.  Look at what he gave us to see about him, without a word, in the opening moments of the season.  It can be done.  It is known.

[stillshimpy]

Pallas:Yes, her position has left her deeply isolated, but isolation itself is not that hard to portray: let us feel it with her.

 

I have to agree with this, whereas I've been making the point for a while that Dany is isolated, and we saw many of the reasons behind that, it would be nice to see a moment or two of her actually feeling something.  It doesn't need to come with a lot of exposition.  Are we to take it that her dragons constitute her entire inner world and emotional life now?   That would be fine, but one of the few revealing things this season, was the black dragon showing some food aggression and Dany recoiling.  

 

Now I get that Emilia Clarke is stuck acting against a tennis ball or whatever it is they use as a focal point for the later-to-be-CGI'd dragons, so I'm not that nonplussed that there wasn't a lot of emotional knowledge to gain from that.  That makes sense.  However, here's part of the reason I had so little reaction to her decision this episode...she had so little reaction to it.  What.The.Hell?  

 

Her quest for three years (or however long in show life, at least two) , her slow and rather plodding (often dusty, sometimes scenic ) journey for the entire time I have known this character and the reason I cared about her from jump was back-burned.  Sure, I can guess at all the reasons, but I do feel like I do the majority of the heavy-emotional lifting with Dany these days.  Sometimes I feel like I'm super-imposing motivations and feelings on to her.  

 

So she seems to -- at least for the foreseeable damned future (read: the rest of the bloody season.again.some more) -- have decided to give going to the Seven Kingdoms a pass for the time being.  I feel like I should have gotten something more out of that scene than, "I like that dress on her, her waist is so tiny! What's going on? Oh they're essentially pitching four season's worth of  Dany's known animating force over that balcony she's posed by? That color blue just suits her so well."  That appeared to be what Dany was thinking too. 

 

She's like looking at a Christmas ornament. "Pretty, sparkly.  Oh it plays music. Back on the tree you go.  See you next season, I guess." 

Edited May 8, 2014 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

I dunno, I can understand why Dany is being delayed now at Slavers Bay.  Westeros is not ready for her emancipation tour just quite yet. Winter hasn't come. Neither have the WW on giant spiders. So she really wouldn't be seen as a savior quite yet, so she's got to wait it out for things to get way worse over in the 7K before she can make her way across the Narrow Sea or whatever sea she needs to cross to get to KL.  In the meantime, I see her in last week's epi as having an awakening that "oh, so you mean it's not enough for me to ride in and free all the slaves and then mosey on over to the next slave city?  You mean, like, I have to actually govern these places in order to maintain the slaves freedom?"  To me, that was her aha! moment because no, she cannot just sashay into the next city and lay waste to the ruling class.  She has to put her singular focus on becoming Queen of the 7K, and provide follow up support to the very people she has freed if she wants them to remain free, or at least as free as one can be under a Queen, magnanimous though she may be.

 

I see two possible scenarios hee:

 

1. Dany is waiting it out in Slavers Bay until the time is ripe for her to descend  on KL and claim the throne she thinks she wants so badly

 

OR

 

2. As Dany waits it out in Slavers Bay, ruling over the freed cities she liberated, she has an awakening and decides that her destiny is really not in KL, but rather, exactly where she is right now.  And she abandons her quest for the Iron Throne.

 

No idea if either of those spitballs is on target but to me they both seem at least plausible.

[Coxfires]

I didn't like the trope used to prevent Bran and Jon's reunion, there was something forced in it. I didn't see why Bran couldn't at least let know to Jon that he was alive, and both of them agreeing on separating because they both had their personal mission to accomplish. I just felt like a bad cop out to me.

[WhiteStumbler]

Coxfires:

"...there was something forced in it. I didn't see why Bran couldn't at least let know to Jon that he was alive..."

Agree, esp after there was a scene where Jon talked to Sam about the possibility if finding Bran at Crasters, but then Jon forgets to ask the daughter/wives 'by the way, have you seen a cripple boy and a giant who only says one word, possibly traveling with a direwolf?' I know Jon Snuh knows nothing, but... really?

Grrrrrrrr...

[RadiantAerynSun]

I like the development that Dany's "freed" city's are falling into chaos; what I didn't like was that we were just "told" this instead of being shown it in a more creative manner. But, meh, I guess it'd take too much screen time. Maybe next week? My guess is her "ruling" may consist of making alliances and putting in place some sort of power structure beneath her that can rule when she's absent, which she'd no doubt have to do in Westeros if she ever gets there. She really does need to learn how to play the "Game" if she expects to successfully hold the kingdoms once they're conquered. That was sort of RObert's problem, he knew how to take the Kingdoms in his rebellion, but sucked at being a ruler.

[stillshimpy]

I like the development that Dany's "freed" city's are falling into chaos; what I didn't like was that we were just "told" this instead of being shown it in a more creative manner. But, meh, I guess it'd take too much screen time. Maybe next week?

 

I did like that development too, for what it is worth.  It makes sense.  The logic on that completely tracks.  Particularly the rise of unscrupulous leadership, after she knocked out the slave owning leadership and ruling class.   I hope we get to see some of Dany's work over there, because it would also be nice if by the time she gets to the Seven Kingdoms I could get a sense of whether or not she'd make a good Queen.  They are having such rotten luck with rulers, it would be nice to believe that Dany was their best bet.  I'm firmly of the opinion that she will never be fully dissuaded from trying to take the Iron Throne, too much of her identity is wrapped up in who her family was.  Also, I sort of want her to face off with Jamie Lannister and perhaps for Dany to understand why killing her father was necessary.  

 

Then again, about half the time I sit around waiting for Dany to completely lose her mind, as I think the "Dragons" might be particularly prone to in the Targ line.  I mean, even though Rhaegar was described as "wonderful" even by Oberyn, he left his wife and children and set a country to war over whatever the hell happened with Lyanna Stark.  So there's a chance he'd flown over the Cuckoo's nest.  

 

His father was also described (by Pycelle in his exposition scene with Ros) as a good and wonderful man, before losing his mind.  So it's also possible that's going to be Dany's ultimate fate.