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S04.E05: First Of His Name 2014.05.04

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Episode Synopsis: “Jon starts a new mission; Cersei and Tywin consider the next move for the Crown; Daenerys makes plans for the future.”

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So, did we get confirmation that Syrio isn't merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead?

 

Sansa, you in danger girl! Out of the fire and into the nuthouse. Marry Robin? Ick.

 

Oh, and OMG, Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn! His crazy ass wife did!

 

Why is Cersei all the sudden being reasonable and nice and... sympathetic? WTF is up with that?

 

Poor Brienne, heading to the wall? She really does suck at this stuff. The Brienne and Podrick show could be a spinoff, though. I'd watch the hell out of that show.

 

A Stark reunion near-miss. At least Ghost is back with Jon.

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Wow, Cersei blew me away this episode.  I thought at first she was having one of those rare genuine moments with Margaery, and I was a little annoyed that Marge was so fake in return.  And then I caught on that she's using all of her wiles and charm to get a guilty verdict against Tyrion.  Her approach to each of the judges is well thought out.  It's the most brilliant we've seen her in a good long while.  And the revelation about who killed Jon Arryn couldn't be more timely.

 

Finally a bit of wisdom from Danaerys.  I think we just talked about this too, and whether or not she's being pushed to take the Iron Throne.  And I'm encouraged she's showing some temperance and patience.

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Wow, color me stupid!! I was so sure Cersei had poisoned Arryn! I really thought it was kind of a non official fact. So, crazy Liza has been in cahoots with Littlefinger for quite some time now, but why?? What did she gain with starting this whole mess? Poor Sansa, it's obvious that woman is disturbed and evil. And of course she's going to be jealous of her niece. Robyn is almost as grown as Bran now. I really hope they don't have him breastfeeding anymore -shudders!-

 

I thought for sure Jojen was going to bite it tonight. I don't think he'll last much longer. Also, the kid is looking creepier every time.

 

Good to see things are not so rose colored for Dany, and good to see she's showing some good senses there. By the way, do these people have some freaking twitter or something? How the hell did they hear about Joffrey' s death from the other side of the world?

 

I agree with you, Gravity, Cersei was too level headed today. It was odd. 

Edited by ChocButterfly

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So, crazy Liza has been in cahoots with Littlefinger for quite some time now, but why?? What did she gain with starting this whole mess?

Littlefinger, apparently.

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The One Where A Good Thing Happened.  More Than Once.

 

  1. Craster's Keep burns to the ground
  2. Jojen, Meera, Hodor and Summer all spared, along with Bran
  3. Brandon at least lays eyes on Jon
  4. Jon and Ghost are reunited
  5. Locke bites it
  6. Poor Man's Willem Dafoe bites it
  7. We learn who killed Jon Arryn
  8. Brienne sees something in Podrick
  9. Cersei gets off a great line about what the world does to little girls
  10. Dany's adventures have some realistic consequences

 

Then again,

 

  1. Littlefinger!  
  2. Lysa!
  3. Littlefinger and Lysa!
  4. And Robin!
  5. As snowblack noted: Cersei is working the jury, and seems truly dangerous

 

Edited, because Jon is Snow and Ghost is Ghost.

Edited by Pallas
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The more I think about it, the weirder Cersei's behavior is.  She would allow her last living son, who is the key to whatever power she can retain, to marry Margaery in order to ensure a guilty verdict against Tyrion?  Surely she has a plan to make sure neither of the impending marriages takes place.  I refuse to believe she is suddenly "level-headed."  She is telling people what they want to hear, and hoping they underestimate her cunning.

 

Oh, and I can't stand that Jojen kid.  Can he please die sooner rather than later?  That scene with Creepy Carl and Meera was a bit much for me.  I guess the show has switched gears this season from torture to rape.  I'm not a fan.

Edited by Snowblack
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Oh for god's sake, really?  Okay, right, everything will have been at Littlefinger's behest. Bran's attempted assassination?  Littlefinger is the culprit! Joffrey's poisoning?  Why Littlefinger, but of course! Robert's death by boar gore?  Littelfinger.  He persuaded the pig, his natural brethren, to do the dirty deed!  Who put the doggie in the doghouse? Littlefinger, baby, Littlefinger!  

 

Who caused global warming?  Twas Littlefinger,  He bribed the fluorocarbons to act against the ozone!  Who killed Kennedy?  Fucking Littlefinger, on that grassy knoll.  

 

Who killed the Radio Star?  Littlefinger in sequined glasses.  

 

*knock*knock* "Who's there?"  "LITTLEFINGER the master of the Westeros Universe!"  

 

Who couldn't figure a way out of boning over-eager, big lunged Lyssa.  How long before she and Robyn fly through that sky dome? 

 

Robin dropping the mockingbird down Chekhov's Drop of Doom is probably a bad sign for LF.

 

Well, it's a bad sign for someone, but since Littlefinger is apparently the master of this universe, it's likely not a bad sign for him.  

 

Also, poor Bran having to actively choose to never see his family again.  Brutal story.  None of the Starks will ever see each other again, I guess.  

 

Apparently Littlefinger does actually have sex, what an entirely horrible thought. 

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The more I think about it, the weirder Cersei's behavior is.  She would allow her last living son, who is the key to whatever power she can retain, to marry Margaery in order to ensure a guilty verdict against Tyrion?  Surely she has a plan to make sure neither of the impending marriages takes place.  I refuse to believe she is suddenly "level-headed."  She is telling people what they want to hear, and hoping they underestimate her cunning.

 

Agree completely: Cersei has become a threat.  Now, upon Joffrey's death, I absolutely believe she is committed to killing Margaery and Loras. She finally has a plan and full intent.  Beyond her jealousy of Margaery...if Cersei can blame Tyrion and Sansa for Joffrey's death, she can certainly blame Margaery for not mourning him, for being Queen of the occasion that killed him.  Yikes.  She's even become a far better actor than she ever was: I think she even duped Tywin.

 

Lysa and Littlefinger killed Jon Arryn!  Yikes again: was I ever right/wrong about Lysa's being jealous of Cat...about Brandon or Ned. Oh no no no.  Lysa identified with the underdog, the "little brother."  So now, shimpy, here's another one of Jon Arryn's arranged marriages that fell asunder.  They just wanted different things...

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Agree completely: Cersei has become a threat.  Now, upon Joffrey's death, I absolutely believe she is committed to killing Margaery and Loras. She finally has a plan and full intent.  Beyond her jealousy of Margaery...if Cersei can blame Tyrion and Sansa for Joffrey's death, she can certainly blame Margaery for not mourning him, for being Queen of the occasion that killed him.  Yikes.  She's even become a far better actor than she ever was: I think she even duped Tywin.

 

I agree, when Cersei barely reacted to Margaery's jab about "sister, or mother"  I thought "That was a really stupid thing to....oh, Cersei's going to have you killed.  Got it."  Cersei was just too calm and collected throughout.  I do think she's going to have Margaery killed, but something about her exchange with Oberyn, which seemed very genuine, convinced me that Cersei's going to kill herself too.  I just don't think she plans on going out alone. 

 

So now, shimpy, here's another one of Jon Arryn's arranged marriages that fell asunder.  They just wanted different things

 

Ugh, right?  Plus, I am convinced that Jon Arryn had the actual worst judgement in all of creation.  Yes, even when held in comparison to Ned "Good Man, Terrible Judgment" Stark.  Did he do  anything right, ever?  

 

Also, Littlefinger probably burned Brandon and Papa Stark.  

 

Honestly, Littelfinger as some god of Chaos just makes me roll my eyes a bit.  

Edited by stillshimpy

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Ugh, right?  Plus, I am convinced that Jon Arryn had the actual worst judgement in all of creation.  Yes, even when held in comparison to Ned "Good Man, Terrible Judgment" Stark.  Did he do  anything right, ever? 

 

Wait a sec...what am I missing here?  I don't know anything about Jon Arryn arranging marriages.  Was this really in the show?  I have absolutely no recollection of it.

 

Oh, and we need a thread for favorite quotes.  "Everywhere in the world they hurt little girls."  So classic.  So Cersei.  I loved it.

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I know this is the most minorest point of the whole episode, but did anyone get Arya's Updated Kill List?  And why would she have Beric Dondarrian and Thoros of Myr on that list?  And why, particularly, would she know the Red Woman was so, so bad (IA that someone should kill her, b/c she keeps going around sacrificing living people to the Red God, but did Arya know that the Red Woman was going to sacrifice Gendry?)?  I'm just confused about her list, is all.

 

Cersei was giving a master class in method acting tonight, but would Oberyn and Margery really fall for that shtick?  Margery maybe, because she lusts to be THE Queen and may not see anything else but the goal.  But Oberyn, 4 realz?  Falling for some crybaby story about daughters and little girls and Name Day boats?  I gave him more credit for being Lannister-proof.

 

It's the Eyrie Show!!!  I have been waiting for that sitcom for soooooo long and finally I got my first episode!!!!!!!  Yup, Lysa proved my main theorem in life: Crazy Goes All the Way Down (that really is what I always say, even without the Chekhov Skyhole of Doom).  Lysa really brought it hard tonight, I thank her for the skeeve she put on LF's face, that alone was worth it.  And will Sansa ever just freaking STOP with the believing-people-who-purport-to-rescue-her thing?  I was glad that it didn't take much, just a bit of raving and a little handpain, for her to give her old speech about Stupid Girl With Stupid Dreams Who Never Learns.  Learn, Sansa, Learn!!!

 

I was frustrated as I knew I would be at the near Stark miss, but I was beyond glad that Locke bit it, that all the Bran entourage made it out without death or rape, and that Bran at least laid eyes on Jon.  Oh and that Jon got Ghost back and I assume Bran got Summer back.  Yay!!  Are those the only two direwolves left that are with their masters?  Oh - Rickon still has the unfortunately named Shaggy Dog at the Umber keep.  So, yay!!!  

 

Oh, and I hereby give credit where credit is due: Pallas and others said that Cersei hasn't killed anyone (yet), and though I still think Robert's blood is on her hands, it does appear that Arryn was not at all her or Jaime's fault.  Amazing.  Great reveal.  LF sure is playing the long game.  Someone better take him out soonish, but I guess he'll stick around until the Final Dragon-WW Battle, when hopefully Dany will cave the roof of the Red Keep in on him.  

Edited by abelard
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Wait a sec...what am I missing here?  I don't know anything about Jon Arryn arranging marriages.  Was this really in the show?  I have absolutely no recollection of it

 

Seriously?  You don't remember Robert talking about how Jon Arryn said Cersei would make a good wife?  Or Walder Frey complaining/whining that no one batted an eye when Jon Arryn "married Little Lyssa Tully"? 

 

Or Ned Stark talking about how Jon Arryn wouldn't have let the Kingdom fall into debt to the Lannisters?  Or how Jon Arryn took more than a decade to figure out that all Baratheons have dark hair?!?  Or that he apparently sat on the knowledge that Cersei was boffing Jaime for long enough that his wife offed him before the Lannisters could, which is the latest in the "Jon Arryn: Not a Member of the Psychic Friends Network" bombshells. 

 

Jon Arryn's track record is, I'll be kind, less than stellar.  

Edited by stillshimpy

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Jon Arryn advocated the marriage of Cersei and Robert.  shimpy has read him the riot act for it, hilariously.  

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Shimpy, I'm getting the sense you don't like Littlefinger much... ;P

 

I'm okay with it, if only because I don't get the feeling he's an endgame player. If anything, I feel like (for some weird reason) SANSA is, and Littlefinger's only there to smooth that along.

 

ETA: Almost forgot! My official spitball for this episode is that Bran will end up in an Epic Duel with Dany at some point, because that fire appeared around his hand when he talked about "the end", and that Dany will burn Jojen and Meera with her dragons, which will provide Bran with the motivation to... I dunno, warg her to death?

Edited by DemosthenesKey

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I like him slightly less than Jon Arryn, DemosthensKey. Slightly.  

 

 

 

shimpy has read him the riot act for it

 

I have.  In fact, it's kind of my mantra.  I once made up a theme song to the tune of Dark Wing Duck entitled, "Ask Jon Arryn and you're Fuc..." okay, well you, get the idea.  

Edited by stillshimpy
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And why would she have Beric Dondarrian and Thoros of Myr on that list?  And why, particularly, would she know the Red Woman was so, so bad (IA that someone should kill her, b/c she keeps going around sacrificing living people to the Red God, but did Arya know that the Red Woman was going to sacrifice Gendry?)?

 

Arya has it in for Beric and Thoros because they betrayed their new Brother Gendry to the Red Woman, who took him away captive. And planned to sell Arya to her family. 

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Heh, Shimpy, next thing we know Littlefinger is in cahoots with the White Walkers as well!

 

I agree that Cersei was too weird, too calmed. She's definitely  planning something... Also, didn't we have the whole "sister/mother" exchanged before between Cersei and Marge? I could swear they already had it, and Cersei had been an open bitch to Marge that time. Am I imagining that?

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Cersei had been an open bitch to Marge that time. Am I imagining that?

 

You are not imagining it, ChocButterfly.  The last time Margaery spoke to Cersei in a friendly fashion at all, calling her "radiant" and "sister"  Cersei told her about The Rains of Castamere, asking her if she knew how to sing and practically threatenting to make a hat and a fetching pair of gloves out of Margaery's actual, literal, hide.  

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Am I imagining that?

 

Nope: after recounting for Margaery the story behind "The Rains of Castermere," Cersei told Margaery that she would have her skinned alive (or something like that) the next time Margaery tried calling her "sister."   Margaery is definitely overplaying her hand.  

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And will Sansa ever just freaking STOP with the believing-people-who-purport-to-rescue-her thing?

It doesn't strike me as unreasonable that she'd believe her aunt wanted to help her.  Catelyn wasn't aware that Lysa was completely bonkers until she visited her, so presumably Sansa would only have ever heard positive things about her.

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I'm confused about Bran's warging Hodor. Did the warging give Hodor power he didn't ordinarily have -- which I didn't know before, and don't like now -- or did the warging just help Hodor...focus?   I guess I can buy the latter.  Hodor is a gentle, even timid soul.  In the face of violence, he seems to become deeply distressed and recoils, rather than retaliates.  Bran perhaps ordered his reactions into action. 

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Bran didn't give Hodor power. Bran took possession of Hodors body! Bran was the one who killed Locke (with Hodors body)!

 

And apparently in Lysa's mind she was "married" to LF all the time (We had our wedding night a long time ago!)

So, I guess when Jon Arryn was Hand of the King, LF had Lysa whispering his ideas in Jon Arryns ear. Did LF realize that the crown is going bankrupt and started the war because of that?

 

Best scene for me was Pod cooking rabbit. That was a joke I've never seen before!

Edited by arry the orphan

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Best scene for me was Pod cocking rabbit. That was a joke I've never seen before!

That's either a term I have never heard before or the best typo ever.

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Quote

    Best scene for me was Pod cocking rabbit.

 

That's either a term I have never heard before or the best typo ever.

 

TYPO!!!!!!! Although its Game of Thrones...so you never know what they will think of next.

Edited by arry the orphan

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So, uh, yeah. Some more good guys win the short game. I am still so damaged by all the carnage of the last few seasons that I keep expecting somone I like to get killed every scene. I have post traumatic show syndrome (did someone say that last week?).

Anyhoo, I would like to buy a seat on the Cersei is fucking with Margaery train, please. I kept thinking Cersei was going to rip her a new one, then she arranges the marriage, and I immediately thought "oh, she's going to have Margaery killed on HER wedding day..and perhaps Cersei will off herself at the same time?!"

The whole Lyssa Littlefinger story grossed me out. Lyssa is a very *cough unfortunatelooking cough* qnd her clawing at Littlefinger was so disgusting, but also weird because I almost think of him as very asexual because he seems like a watcher, not a do-er, if you get my meaning.

And Robin and Sansa, just when the kid thinks she got a fucking break? Honestly? Someone needs to "fly through the hole" soon and I want it to be Lyssa and Robin, but that would leave Sansa alone with Littlefinger and we all know what that will mean...so yeah, I'm guessing thats whats coming down the road because its the worst thing that could happen so of course it will happen because A Show doesnt disappoint in that department, does it?

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The Eyrie Show! Everything I wished for and more! Love, intrigue and good cookin'! 

 

Dany in a house! Not threatening to huff and puff down one!

Edited by abcfsk
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I sat through the coronation scenes just waiting for Cersei to notice all the significant glances between Tommen and Margaery - I'm surprised it took her so long.

 

Enquiring minds would like to know why the Hound hasn't heard Arya's list before, given how long they've been together at this point. Has she been reciting it in her head but now decided she doesn't care any more if he hears?

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So..whats LF and Lyssa's plan? To wed Sansa to her little cousin Robin! Sansa is still Westeros' most wanted. The Eyrie seems truly unassailable, but that does not win them the North. Do they hope that the Northerners rise up against Bolton and support Sansa? Are the "Knights of the Vale" going to attack the North? And what happened to the storyline with the Hill tribes rebellion against the Vale? Does it matter that Sansa is married to the "Halfman"?

Edited by arry the orphan

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 Does it matter that Sansa is married to the "Halfman"?

Well, Lysa did say that she expects Sansa to be a widow soon - Littlefinger clearly thinks Tyrion's conviction and execution are a foregone conclusion. So from that angle, retrieving Sansa as the key to the north becomes a solid investment - for much the same reason the Lannisters wanted her wed to them. She's a long-term investment, aimed at pacifying the north, although probably not till a bunch of other schemes pay off - I mean, there have to be other schemes in play because Sansa is no use to Littlefinger with the Lannisters still in power and Bolton ruling the north, so for that investment to pay off, he has to be seeing a time when the Lannisters have been routed and Bolton thrown from power.

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So I was actually assuming that someone would get to this before me, but apparently not yet. 

 

What the hell did Jojen just do?  I thought for sure he was going to turn into a human flame-thrower, but the guy's hand was aflame, right?

 

Warrior of Light, yo? 

 

Also, thank you, Show, for allowing one of Craster's overly beleaguered daughter's to pitch in on the killing of her captor at a crucial time.  I never really understood why Craster didn't meet his end via "Daughter, Wives, I'm-my-own-Grandpa-icide" long ere this, so I was glad to see at least one of them join the "Oh I have had enough of this shit."  movement.

Edited by stillshimpy
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Bran didn't give Hodor power. Bran took possession of Hodors body! Bran was the one who killed Locke (with Hodors body)!

 

Thank you arry.   So warging is a bit different from what I had envisioned.  From what we saw -- with Jon's rival and his raven, with Bran and Summer -- I had imagined the seer-to-animal relation lay somewhere on a spectrum between perception and direction, not full-on possession.  The seer could share the animal's senses (Bran hunts along with Summer) or remotely direct the animal's actions (Bran orders the wolves to attack the Wildlings; the spirit of the rival orders the raven to attack Jon).

 

In those examples the seer is directing the animal to do something that naturally falls within the animal's scope: "riding" the animal, more or less.  I guess I didn't give much thought to how Bran's putting Hodor to sleep during the storm was different in kind from this. It seemed no more alarming or uncanny than hypnosis.  But Bran's fully possessing Hodor's mind and body and using Hodor to kill Locke -- against Hodor's very nature -- is another story.  

 

I'm glad he did, don't get me wrong.  Two Sansa-finds-a-savior-oops! storylines within one episode would have maddened me, especially as Sansa had to carry not one but two of her very own.   Bran fought with the weapon and in the manner available to him, just as Jon did after being schooled by his opponent and by Craster's daughter, and Arya may, after being schooled by the Hound. And as Sansa did, with Lyssa.  For the four Starks, it was a day for "Not today," one way or another. 

 

The Stealthy Starks: First of Their Name.

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Did anyone else think Jon Snow looked particularly sexy killing all those rapers at Crasters? Just me? Competent Jon Snow is a Jon Snow I can get behind!

I was shouting for Bran and Jon to see one another even though I knew they wouldn't.

I was so glad for Jon to get Ghost back!

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Going for the spitball here, because I WANT Tyrion to be a good man.

Robin knows who Sansa is but isn't supposed to call her that in public. So you know he will. To whom? Not sure. Tyrion gets out of the murder trial innocent and goes looking for his wife, because that's what he would do. Finds out she's at the Eyrie, his favorite place. Bronn made that joke about 10 men and some climbing shoes. I bet they know a way in. I want to see them married and happy, because through everything, we've never seen either of them treat one another with anything less than respect and kindness.

 

And did Oberyn say he had 8 daughters? maybe one of them ends up as Tommen's Queen?

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What the hell did Jojen just do?  I thought for sure he was going to turn into a human flame-thrower, but the guy's hand was aflame, right?

I don't think so. It was part of his vision. He was seeing the raid on Craster's Keep and seeing the keep burning to the ground, I think. He was playing when imaginary fire.

 

Anyhoo, I would like to buy a seat on the Cersei is fucking with Margaery train, please. I kept thinking Cersei was going to rip her a new one, then she arranges the marriage, and I immediately thought "oh, she's going to have Margaery killed on HER wedding day..and perhaps Cersei will off herself at the same time?!"

 

I did wonder if Cersei figured it all out and the Tyrion stuff is just a distraction, or because she still really hates Tyrion. If she somehow knows that Olenna killed her son on her wedding day, she might indeed be planning to kill Olenna granddaughter on her (third) wedding day.

Edited by 90PercentGravity

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Sigh... Sansa's doomed isn't she?

 

Only slightly less doomed than Lyssa and Robyn likely are.   What happens to Littlefinger's associates once he no longer has need of them?  Plus, he's apparently been currying favor in the Eryie for all this time.  

 

 

 

The whole Lyssa Littlefinger story grossed me out. Lyssa is a very *cough unfortunatelooking cough*

 

For once I don't even feel a little bit bad about bringing up someone's appearance in a negative context, because -- for freaking real -- the makeup artists have clearly gong nuts with the stage makeup to try and make that woman unattractive.  They've lined every crease in her face with a darker-than-skin tone pencil.  Flattened her hair and put it in the least attractive style they could conjure.  

 

I'm assuming she's actually normally an attractive person, because that's the only way in the world they'd have to try that hard and that obviously to use makeup to make her looked lackluster and plain.  So for once, I feel okay saying this, wow, did they uglify that woman within an inch of her life.  

 

Good spitball, by the way, on Cersei planning to take out Margaery.  She's so clearly up to something, but for once Lena Headey isn't doing that "spot it from the back rows" thing when she's been in manipulation mode, making me think she's in her endgame stage even more than I did prior to this.  

 

If I hadn't been fairly sure before that, Cersei finding out the Lannisters are basically broke and having almost no discernible reaction to that news makes me think she's just done.

Edited by stillshimpy
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 Cat was smart for going after the Stark boys. If I were a woman I would definately be trying to snag me a Stark boy, as everyone else seems to be involved in horrific love triangels. Stark boys may not be the most charming, but they are loyal, and have happy home lives.

 

 

Well, except for that whole Jon Snow thing...

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I really miss Varys and really hate Littlefinger.

 

I'm very disappointed that LF was able to manipulate pretty much every single person. Everyone knows not to trust him, yet everyone does. I'm stunned at the idiocy of some of these supposed geniuses.

 

Who has LF manipulated?

- Tywin : trusted LF to forge an alliance with the Tyrells. Also, arranged for him to marry Lysa Aaryn, which can't be a coincidence.

- Tyrells (Olenna) : Hey, give me Sansa Stark. I'll take care of her. Also, here's some poison. Kill the King in front of a whole wedding party for me? k thanx!

- Lysa : Kill your husband. I'm way better. No, you are so waaay prettier than your sister. Robyn is adorable....

- Starks : Trust me with your life, Ned Stark. hehe. That knife is totally Tyrion's. Those Lannisters and their killing of children. Am I right?!

 

Did LF tell Jamie to push Bran, too? That bit is probably the only thing that LF didn't plan, and it worked completely in his favor. It made the Starks distrust the Lannisters even more!

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Dire,

Since the show suddenly feels like confessions are Hip, I'm really hoping LF had nothing to do with anything in Winterfell.

Not Bran's fall, not Cersei and Jaime's dalliance, not the attempted assassination. Nada.

 

I mean, he was presumably In Town when Jon Arryn was... gives him plenty of time to set something up. 

(when you think about it, the poisonous affair with Olenna is more implausible...) 

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Arya has it in for Beric and Thoros because they betrayed their new Brother Gendry to the Red Woman, who took him away captive. And planned to sell Arya to her family. 

Thanks for this assist to my recall.  And yet...I don't know that "betrayal" is the same as "You beheaded my father/Betrayed and murdered my mother and brother," which is what other people on the list have done.  I guess...there can be varying degrees of bloodlust in the list.  Maybe she just assumes that Gendry died b/c of the Brotherhood's giving him to the Red Woman.  So I suppose in her book, Gendry is already dead, and she needs to avenge him, too. 

 

It doesn't strike me as unreasonable that she'd believe her aunt wanted to help her.  Catelyn wasn't aware that Lysa was completely bonkers until she visited her, so presumably Sansa would only have ever heard positive things about her.

 

Oh I would 100% agree with this if it were anyone stumbling into the Eyrie but Sansa.  I'm just saying: Sansa should know by now that all the gods, the Old and New, just plain have it in for her.  Iow, yes it's totally reasonable that none of Cat's children would really get how far 'round the bend their Aunt Lysa is...but Sansa should just be wary of everyone who tries to help her at this point (except for Shae and Tyrion - but some on this board even doubt Shae's loyalty).  Arya trips and falls into the hands of extremely strong men who protect and save her, by pure accident and luck.  Sansa just keeps falling into deeper levels of hell.  She should be suspicious because she's Sansa, the Most Unfortunate Person in Existence (besides Craster's Daughters -- even their hell has recently come to an end, while Sansa's goes on), not b/c anyone she's dealing with at the moment presents themselves as suspicious (they usually seem Super Nice at least at first).

And did Oberyn say he had 8 daughters? maybe one of them ends up as Tommen's Queen?

 

Oh maybe this was a tacit promise Cersei was making to Oberyn: You convict Tyrion, I'll betroth Tommen to one of your daughters.  Oberyn wouldn't know that she also simultaneously promised Tommen to Margery.

Edited by abelard
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Maybe she just assumes that Gendry died b/c of the Brotherhood's giving him to the Red Woman.  So I suppose in her book, Gendry is already dead, and she needs to avenge him, too.

 

I think part of Arya's fury isn't that the Brotherhood gave Gendry to Melisandre, although that likely would have been enough, it's that they quite literally sold Gendry to Melisandre.  So it wasn't even about a belief in a higher calling.  It was just downright, baldfaced selling out. 

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In response to why people seem to "trust" Littlefinger...

 

I actually think it's BECAUSE the man oozes "Don't Trust Me". To borrow from a certain pirate - "You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest". Presumably there isn't anyone who actually trusts him (except maybe Lysa), but everyone believes he'll at least follow through. And I suppose he has more often than not - in that he actually did wrangle a Tyrell/Lannister alliance.

 

Tywin probably shouldn't have trusted him to not do anything more than that, though. 

 

The Tyrells trusted him in re the whole thing with the poison, and honestly it worked out great for the Tyrells! NOBODY suspects them - not even Cersei, who's the only person I can think of who would/should/could - and now Marg presumably gets to marry the "first good king in 50 years" instead of little Pin-The-Arrow-To-The-Whore.

 

Lysa's crazy, and clearly knows that Littlefinger's a dirty old man, but love is weird and I suppose she just really wanted to keep everybody in the Eyrie up all night. *shudders* Still, had Jon Arryn lived, the soldiers of the Vale would definitely have been involved in the Great War by now instead of being fresh (the only fresh troops in the 7K I think aside Martells?). On the gripping hand, Littlefinger... doesn't seem too attached to her. So yeah, you may have a point on the "Stupid People Trusting Littlefinger" board there. 

 

Re: Littlefinger/Ned Stark.

 

... Yeah, nope. Man shouldn't have trusted Littlefinger. Or if he should have, definitely shouldn't have backed Stannis. Can you imagine Stannis in the same room with Littlefinger? Because in MY mind, Stannis just ends up killing the guy after about a minute or so.

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Varys:

His "little birds" tell him everything

Tyrion?

Cersei/Lannisters?

Jorah????

Wizard in a box???????

Crap! Varys is getting his butt kicked!

 

In Season 1 it looked like Varys was the big puppet master orchestrating the Dothraki invasion and bringing war to the Seven Kingdoms. LF outplayed him completely (in the start-a-war-for-personal-profit-game), but Varys still has his friends overseas. We don't really know who those friends are, except the one who arranged the marriage between Dany and Khal Drogo and gave her the dragon eggs. I also think that the masked woman in Qarth, who warned Jorah might be one of them. They also are helping Shae.

 

I found Tywins description of the Iron Bank very interesting! It sounded like you never know who could be an agent of the Bank. Could Varys friends have a connection to them?

Edited by arry the orphan
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I did wonder if Cersei figured it all out and the Tyrion stuff is just a distraction, or because she still really hates Tyrion. If she somehow knows that Olenna killed her son on her wedding day, she might indeed be planning to kill Olenna granddaughter on her (third) wedding day.

 

Oberyn: We will have a trial and we will learn the truth

Cersei: We'll have a trial, anyway

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So two big things have jumped out at me since I saw the episode.  First, I call bullshit on the surprise revelation about the Lannisters being broke.  I could buy into the Master of Coin and the Lannister kids not knowing that Daddy was using a credit card and not a debit card, if that's all it was.  But it isn't.  We're talking about gold mines.  Lots of gold mines.  And as Little Finger said, commoners like to gossip about pretty noble girls over a pint.  They also like to talk shop.  We're supposed to believe that for three years miners in Casterly Rock have NOT been talking about the lack of gold they're finding.  That it isn't common knowledge at least among miners by now.  And that every noble family in all of Westeros hasn't heard this gossip yet?  There's no way.  Not with a morsel that juicy.

 

The second thing is I don't like the reveal of LF being behind everything bad that has ever happened in Westeros.   I wonder if the show forgot Ser Hugh.  His sudden knighting.  His new armor.  His death at the hands of The Mountain.  That was a coincidence?  Misdirection?  That's a little hard to swallow.  Who was it that gave Ned the clue about Ser Hugh?  That might be important, but I can't remember.


Oberyn: We will have a trial and we will learn the truth

Cersei: We'll have a trial, anyway

I don't think Cersei knows it isn't Tyrion. Why else would she go through such incredible machinations to get him convicted.  I think she really is that deluded.

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