S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis: 

Daenerys demands loyalty from the surviving Lannister soldiers; Jon heeds Bran's warning about White Walkers on the move; Cersei vows to vanquish anyone or anything that stands in her way.

 

[janjan]

YAY! We wuz right! "Reggar" annulled his marriage and married "someone else"! WooHOO! Look at that great dripping spitball oozing down the mighty wall! Aah, the almighty powers of the Great All-Seeing Unsullied! Or else, Hope triumphs again.

But he's a bit of a shit bastardizing his half-Dornish children.

Where did Sam get a horse and cart? I liked his callback to his father's remark, "Reading about the achievements of better men." Go Sam!

Welcome back, Gendry. You looked better with your hair longer.

Aww, Tormund misses Brienne. That's sweet.

Why did the advance sortie go north of the wall on foot? I'm glad they did -- don't want to see horses freezing and starving.

Never mind the following:

Spoiler

I imagined it.

Trouble is brewing between Arya and Sansa. I'm betting on Arya. LF, sowing Discord again, doesn't know what he's up against.

Oh Drogon, not a scratch, thank the Seven. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by janjan

[gingerella]

SOoooooooooo much to say, will have to digest and post in on the morrow, but for now, in no particular order:

YES Janjan, we were right on the money with Rhaegar and Lyanna being legal sweethearts! So Jon ain't no bastard at all, he is the actual rightful heir to House Targ, well, assuming they consider non inbreds real heirs. So sorry Dany but girrrrl, take a seat now! BUt OTOH, just what Jon doesn't want, a legit reason to be a King. POor guy just can't catch a break. 

I believe that Arya will take out LF, once and for all, though now that I say that, she is in the  deficit at the moment since she thinks she's bested LF but he's on to her. 

So much for my notion that Sam and Dickon will get back together and fight as brothers. So long Tarleys! As much  as I hated Pa Tarley, at least he bet the knee to nobody...gotta sorta give him props for that...kinda sorta...

I can't believe that Cersei is knocked up with another incest baby, I mean, it's preposterous at her age,she looks far too old to me for such nonsense. JesusHChrist. She's like a cockroach, she will never fucking die no matter how much we'd like her to. When she told Jamie to never betray her again, I hope homeboy finally got the message, sis is cookoo for Cocoa Puffs. Jamie, move on FFS, otherwise she's gonna eat you like a black widow spider...

Ser Davos, I fucking love you! GENDRY! Hiding out in plain sight, naturally. So now we've got the rightful heir to the the Baratheon throne and House actually alive. But, bastards don't really count in the line of succession, right? So he's still a bastard so this moot I guess. I guess we can now remove him from the Milk Carton Gang, jeez, almost nobody left on that list is ther?

So glad Sam left the Citadel, what a useless group of asshats those maesters are now. I assume they're headed to Winterfell, or perhaps he will he had to Dragonstone thinking Jon is there? I could barely see what he took in that scene, but has he already swiped that book that was opened up to show Knifey! ?  The whole timeline is sooooo wonky what with Jon leaving Dragonstone and sailing all the way up the coast to Eastgate or whatever that part of the Wall is called. It seems like it should take weeks for that sailing, doesn't it? 

Speaking of Jon, Nooooooooooooooooo! I don't want him going beyond the Wall again! THe dude only has so many lives and luck at this point, although I suppose IF he gets killed again, Dondarrion and Company are there to bring him back again, assuming they know about Mel's prior escapades with Jon. what with their special powers, you'd think they would already know about that by doing some fire gazing but who knows...I'm worried for that entire party because if one of them gets touched by the dead, they become undead too, right? I hate AShow for making A Viewer worried about this North of the Wall shit again...

LF intercepted a Raven message TO Jon, yes? Not FROM Jon, correct? IT was signed from Sansa but I couldn't make out what it said...did anyone read it?

Okay, brethren, my mind is racing...I need to sleep so I can be merl coherent in the morn...Oy...

Edited August 14, 2017 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

21 minutes ago, gingerella said:

LF intercepted a Raven message TO Jon, yes? Not FROM Jon, correct? IT was signed from Sansa but I couldn't make out what it said...did anyone read it?

I had to go back, pause it, and read what I could. It was the message Sansa wrote under Cersei's "gunpoint" to Robb about how Ned was a traitor to the throne and he needs to come bend the knee.  Robb and company saw through it immediately. Said something about how they knew Sansa was writing "Cersei's words." I'm assuming he will claim he was trying to destroy any conflicting evidence that Sansa was loyal to the North. She clearly is, but that note out of context doesn't sound so good.

[janjan]

Oooooh, good catch, Pup. LF stirring up trouble among the Starks (which include Jon, as far as LF knows)! I don't see his end game. Has he transferred his ambition to Arya? Or is it just that he thinks he can always climb the ladder of chaos, any chaos? Arya, who was present at her father's execution, will not like the idea that Sansa had a hand in it. I hope she can see through it as Robb did.

Where the hell is Ghost?

[janjan]

Poor Jorah can't catch a break either. He finally reunites with his beloved queen, only to find her making goo-goo eyes at Jon. And it looks like Drogon is okay with him as a step-father.

Edited August 14, 2017 by janjan

[ChocButterfly]

"I thought you were still rowing"<----Heh! Davos was speaking for all of us there!

So Reaghar did anule his marriage to marry Lyanna. I wonder what excuse did he give to do it. I mean, it can't be that easy to anule a royal marriage just like that. And how would that even work? He even had 2 kids with the Dornish Princess!! HEIRS!!! That's a whole lot worse than Rob's bethrotal brake. That would have easily cost a war either way. No one would accept the new wife and the Rebellion would have been the same.

At this point it doesn't even matter. It's not like Dany is just going to say ok then, and give the throne to Jon. The Iron Throne belongs to the one that takes it. It does open more the path to a Jon and Dany marriage. Right now is the only way I can see out for it. Plus, the show is already telegraphing it with all the starry eyes Dany has been giving Jon. They might as well just kiss already.

Oh, and see? I told you all Jon was going to be the Second Dragon Rider! That scene with Drogon was just a preface of it. It showed us the dragon recognizes a Targaryan. The Third Rider will be Warging Bran.

I don't understand Tyrion's plan. I mean, of course they should have caught a zombie already to show ALL the houses and the Maesters that the thread is real. But Tyrion above all people should now that that's not going to work with Cersei. What? He thinks she's going to join forces with them to battle the Dead? She'll only take this opportunity to betray them. She woudln't even care  if the Night King crosses the Wall and kills everyone before he gets to KL. She'd open the gates of the Wall herself, so she could get rid of her enemies. It's not like she thinks long term, after all. And she'd rather see everyone dead before losing first. She's an idiot. And so is Jaimie. I'm not even sure if she's really pregnant or just manipulating him.

I can't eblieve Arya isletting herself be played by Littelfinger! And I can't believe he could be sneakier than her. No, really, she trained with basically Ninja Masters, how can he be on to her? How can he even have the ability to spy on her without her noticing? That shouldn't be happening. On the other hand, I see his game, he's trying to drive a wedge between the sisters and alianate Sansa from her loved ones, so he can be her comfort. And of course, Bran easily knows all this, but he's too Superior to even care and is beneath himself to have a conversation or warn his sisters about it. Because his visions are too precious to share or do anything with them, except sending useless raven, which he should know are being ignored.

"Did you bring the Big Woman with you?"<---Ha! I really hopw they show some advance between Thurmond and Brienne before the show ends.

[janjan]

2 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

She's an idiot. And so is Jaimie. I'm not even sure if she's really pregnant or just manipulating him.

Qyburn's last words before leaving Cersei's room were, "Can I give you something?" That suggests she has morning sickness.

Jaime is losing all for love, just as Mrs. Peel said he would. We can see that he's having doubts about the course they're on, and vainly trying to stop Cersei from this or that misadventure, such as naming him as the proud papa. But he can't help himself. Too bad, Shithead.

Another well-aimed spittle hits the Wall from such as us: Sam snitching books on his way out of the Citadel. Surely he has the one with Rhaegar's annulment, right? Even though he was exasperated at the reports of shits and steps.

[WhiteStumbler]

Band of Brooders: Tormund Giantsbane, Jorah Mormont, Gendry, Jon Snow, Thoros of Mir, Berrick Dondarion, & The Hound.

This one felt a bit rushed to me. From Dragonstone to Eastwatch at light speed (AKA the Littlefinger Constant). Gendry from working as a blacksmith (on the poetically named Street of Steel) to north of The Wall in what felt like 48 hours. Everyone goes from 'I don't like you and you don't like me' to going on a playdate to find a zomboni in even less time. And Jorah is along for the ride! I noted that Jon had Long Claw with him when they met, but Jorah made no remark about it.

Gilly: This High Septon Maynard, he recorded everything. He even recorded his own bowel movements. What does "annulment" mean?
Sam: It's when a man sets aside his lawful wife.
Gilly: Maynard says here that he issued an annulment for a Prince "Ragger" and remarried him to someone else at the same time in a secret ceremony in Dorne. Is that a common thing in the south or--?
Sam: These maesters, they set me to the task of preserving that man's window counting and annulments and bowel movements for all eternity, while the secret to defeating the Night King's probably sitting on some dusty shelf somewhere, completely ignored.

I also noted the "annulment" reference, but I am not sure that it is as significant as it seems on the surface. Jon is a reluctant leader at best, Dany still has the military might (not to mention 3 dragons), and Jon didn't just want to be "not a bastard", he wanted to be Ned Stark's Son. He wanted to be an equal to the brothers and sisters he grew up with, not looked down on and treated with contempt by the only mother figure he had. I think knowing he is the legitimate son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targeryen won't change a lot about the past. There is also the fact that Dany's intent is to break the wheel, so the old rules of inheritance and succession might not be as important in her new world.

It was pretty cool that Drogon allowed himself to be petted by Jon, an apparent nod / confirmation of his Targaryen identity, but Jon has the opposite hair color as Dany and isn't immune to fire (though Viserys wasn't immune to fire, and he was full blood Targ).

Cool that Gendry prefers a hammer, like his Da...
Robert: (My first kill) was some Tarly boy at the Battle of Summerhall. My horse took an arrow so I was on foot, slogging through the mud. He came running at me, this dumb high-born lad, thinking he could end the rebellion with single swing of his sword. I knocked him down with the hammer. Gods, I was strong then. Caved in his breastplate. Probably shattered every rib he had.

Tyrion may be technically correct that "this war has already wiped one great house from the world", as the others might not be considered destroyed by "this war", but by my count 4 of the 7 Kingdoms currently have no known ruling House: Dorne, Highgarden, the Stormlands, and the Riverlands. Other Houses that have been wiped out include Bolton and Frey (though there might be some Frey children alive - it looked like Arya only killed the men who perpetrated the Red Wedding), while the fate of House Tully hangs by a thread.

 

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

GENDRY! <snip> But, bastards don't really count in the line of succession, right?

I believe that is correct, unless the bastard is legitimized by the King / Queen.

 

3 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

I don't understand Tyrion's plan. I mean, of course they should have caught a zombie already to show ALL the houses and the Maesters that the thread is real.

They should have paraded a zomboni thru every capital city in the 7K, but I don't understand how they could have -- would the magic still work so far from The Wall? Whatever happened to the hand that Thorne was supposed to take to kings Landing? Which makes me wonder about the zomboni that attacked Lord Cmdr Mormont way back. Benjen said that "The Wall is not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic to protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass." So why didn't the zomboni just crumble to dust when it crossed the halfway point in the tunnel on the way to Castle Black before it could attack Mormont? How could the magic that animates them have any effect on the other side of The Wall?

Edited August 14, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[Pallas]

I could have watched Jon and Drogon meet all hour long. Drogon's eyeblink was a wonder. All of him, really, and from the start: from the claws at the joint of his wings to his wavy dorsal spikes to his articulated hide to his movement and sounds, the whole language of him.

I love that there was no attempt at suspense about Jaime's fate (today), as well as his deadpan complaint to Bronn that "You might have killed me." Though not as much as Bronn's calling his Lord Commander "you cunt," his insistence that he saw Jaime as the one-armed bandit that he'd keep playing until it yielded a jackpot and coughed up Castle Bronn, and his brokering the meeting of the siblings.

Siblings ruled the episode: Cersei and Jaime, Tyrion and Jaime, Sansa and Arya, even -- through Davos -- the ghost of Davos's son, and Gendry. That young man (actor Joe Dempsie) is so well-cast as, What-sprouts-when-the-seed-is-strong. Not only Robert's coloring and strength, but his shrewd, blunt manner, his humor and his radiant vitality:  qualities all coarsened during his 20-year reign of indulgence.  

Sansa and Arya's dispute about tactics picked up again, at the same divide. The conflict reflects their natures and remains unchanged by experience. Sansa is a diplomat who weaves strands within the social order or at least, tries to keeps parties at the table; Arya is a judge who singles out individual malefactors and dispenses justice she loves to administer by her own hand. She and Littlefinger share that zeal and certitude: he for the cause of himself; she in the name of the truth, the right, the good. So quickly did he recognize that quality in her, and play it. 

I would love to see Sansa perceive that play and thwart it: make a stand against Littlefinger's machinations, and Arya's terrible swift sword. Along with Jon, among the remaining Stark children it is Sansa who speaks for "Working together --" more and more, it seems, the lyric of this saga. 

Davos to Gendry about Jon Snow, (so-called) bastard (so-called) son of Ned Stark: "He has enough on his mind; he doesn't need to be worried about harboring the son of a dead king." Heh. Jon Snow: True-Born True King of the Seven Kingdoms -- Up to a Point.

Jon's being legitimate adds urgency and depth to Ned's deception, and the destiny Ned tried to choose for him. Better than death at the hand of anyone with a stake in the Targaryens' overthrow,  Robert's ascendancy and/or House Martell (which would presumably be outraged by Rhaegar's annulling his marriage to Elia). Or even in the claims of Rhaegar's platinum-haired brother in exile, born and raised a Targaryen. 

In terrestrial law, anyway, an annulment does not make the children of the marriage bastards, if the parties to the marriage had cause to believe themselves married when the child was born. In A Show's seemingly British-based feudal system, what an annulment does to the line of succession to the Iron Throne is unknown but also moot, since Rhaegar and Elia's children are dead. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married, Jon is head of House Targaryen. Jon Snow the Burnt, the Black of Hair, the Northerner.

Ah but. When Jon joined the Night's Watch he gave up, forever, all titles he came in with. That Jon Show -- born head of House Targaryen -- took a knife to the heart, for his people.

[janjan]

19 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Jon had Long Claw with him when they met, but Jorah made no remark about it.

Mormont had replaced the bear's head with a woofie.

19 minutes ago, Pallas said:

In terrestrial law, anyway, an annulment does not make the children of the marriage bastards, if the parties to the marriage had cause to believe themselves married when the child was born.

When Joe Kennedy wanted an annulment a while ago, his wife resisted, not on her own account, but for their children -- she didn't want them to be bastards in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Of course, this was 20th Century Massachusetts, not Westeros. Jis' saying.

Didn't Roose Bolton legitimize Ramsay just by saying so? And Cersei seems unconcerned about the legitimacy of the dynasty she and Jaime are spawning. We could settle this whole issue by all moving to the Isle of Narth, where they don't have marriage. But meanwhile, might makes right, legitimacy-wise.

[WhiteStumbler]

4 minutes ago, janjan said:

Mormont had replaced the bear's head with a woofie.

That's right! Same great name, different pommel. <tips cap>

[walnutqueen]

Arya sees Sansa like nobody else can - they have history.  Littlefinger may want to think twice about his clever machinations, lest they come back to bite his little ... finger off.

Jorah needs to accept he's always been in the friend zone.  Destined to be the steadfast but unrequited hero, I'm afraid.

My lurve for Varys is ever enduring.

As an aside - it's not going to be a very satisfying Season marathon, with only 7 episodes to rewatch.   That's not even enough for a decent pee break, much less a meal and a nap.  :-(

 

1 hour ago, janjan said:

When Joe Kennedy wanted an annulment a while ago, his wife resisted, not on her own account, but for their children -- she didn't want them to be bastards in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Of course, this was 20th Century Massachusetts, not Westeros. Jis' saying.

Same thing happened to me, when my bioDad was to marry a lovely devout Catholic virgin.  My Mum swore she'd never declare me a bastard, Churches of any denomination be damned.  I was young enough to not understand the intricacies of that sordid mess, but came to appreciate all sides later in life.  They're all dead now, too.

[janjan]

52 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

Littlefinger may want to think twice about his clever machinations, lest they come back to bite his little ... finger off.

Have you noticed that cartoons of our Dear Leader always show him with tiny little hands? Hee!

Poor Theon.

[WhiteStumbler]

5 hours ago, janjan said:

Didn't Roose Bolton legitimize Ramsay just by saying so?

Here is Littlefinger, reporting to Cersei that Sansa is alive and in Winterfell:
Littlefinger: My sources are well placed. They tell me Roose Bolton plans to marry her to his son Ramsay, a bastard recently legitimized by King Tommen.

That is why I think it takes a royal decree.

[gingerella]

Is it even possible to dare to dream that Arya's dancing master could reappear at this point?

[janjan]

59 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Is it even possible to dare to dream that Arya's dancing master could reappear at this point?

Everybody clap! Clap clap! Come on, Syrio! Clap clap.  Where's the fairy dust? C'mon, Syrio!!!

[walnutqueen]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Is it even possible to dare to dream that Arya's dancing master could reappear at this point?

The first of my many screaming "NOOOOOOOOOES" to the universe.  I floved that dancing Master, and many a Man who came after him.  Le sigh.

Much like my "real" life, I'm afraid they're either dead or gone forever.  :-(

[gingerella]

Speaking of A Man...I wonder if we will see Jaquen Hagar again or no. I was trying to think of what benefit it would be to the House of the Dead when noe has an Army of dead zombonies coming at you. I rather think th zombonies are not the same as the just-dead that the House of Black and White took in. Those were freshly-dead humans, not the undead dead...I assume that A Man would not be interested in undead dead, but who knows...

 

I was thinking about R&L and the fact that they were legitmately in love and were actually married...I think Robert wanted to killl all the Targ offspring to kill the legacy of the Mad King and to exact revenge on Rhaegar. But...I wonder if Robert would have killed baby Jon and/or Lyanna if they'd survived and he found out the truth, possibly from Lyanna herself. Robert claimed to have loved her like no other and  the delusion that she was kidnapped, defiled and killed, yes? I wonder what his reaction would have been to learn that she didn't love him, she Levon Rhaegar and they both wed and had a child, the heir to House Targ... Not sure why I'm musing on this...but it's stuck in my head right now.

 

I am very worried about Bronn right now. If Cersei knows about him setting up the Tyrion meeting, then she has little birds too, and they seem to know a lot...that is indeed worrisome given its Cersei we're talking about here. I also wonder if this alleged twincest baby is really Jamie's because it doesn't seem like they're been very warm with each other since she blew up the Sept of Balor.

[walnutqueen]

Wine belly, skirting the edges of menopause, whilst occasionally fucking your brother?  Oh, yeah, bring on the Demon Seed ....

[janjan]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

But...I wonder if Robert would have killed baby Jon and/or Lyanna if they'd survived and he found out the truth, possibly from Lyanna herself. Robert claimed to have loved her like no other and  the delusion that she was kidnapped, defiled and killed, yes? I wonder what his reaction would have been to learn that she didn't love him, she Levon Rhaegar and they both wed and had a child,

Robert's idea of "love" sounds more like possession. He was, I suspect, avenging his own cuckoldry [is that a word?] rather than Lyanna's honor. He probably would have killed her had he known the truth.

BTW - on rewatch, it was neat to see Bran fly. He was one of the ravens buzzing the AotD.

Beric and his Lord of Light stuff is getting tiresome. I declare him expendable.

[ChocButterfly]

Quote

Beric and his Lord of Light stuff is getting tiresome. I declare him expendable.

Yup, I assume Thoros is is there to resurrect Jon if he dies again and Beric to die heroically saving them.

I wonder what is Cersei's plan about Urine if she really is pregnant. I always thought she was just planning to kill him when the war is over, but now she'll probably have to kill him sooner.

[Pallas]

On 8/14/2017 at 8:45 AM, ChocButterfly said:

I don't understand Tyrion's plan. I mean, of course they should have caught a zombie already to show ALL the houses and the Maesters that the thread is real. But Tyrion above all people should now that that's not going to work with Cersei. What? He thinks she's going to join forces with them to battle the Dead? She'll only take this opportunity to betray them. 

 

I agree completely, especially since Cersei has a demon for a Hand, and a re-animated Mountain leading her Queen's Guard. She's seen worse in Qyburn's lab. And who's ever seen Cersei impressed by anything? Not Tyrion,  certainly.

To persuade her to accept an armistice, there's no need to convince her that bogey-men are real, nor to argue the greater good: as Cersei said herself, Dany has the numbers (as well as three great equalizers, even if the numbers were reversed). She will love the idea that instead of strolling into King's Landing to claim their victory, Dany and Tyrion are pursuing wraiths in the wastes. Meanwhile, she and Qyburn can work on their tans and devise their own equalizers.

Dany could demand that Jaime be made hostage. Even so. Tyrion knows that Cersei won't be stopped by the threat of Jaime's death in retaliation for her breaking the truce: he knows of her affair with Lancel while Jaime was held prisoner; he knows that Cersei will somehow carry on. He's known, long before Olenna said it, that his sister would be the end of his brother. And in any event, no one needs to capture a wight in order to take a hostage. 

After what Tyrion saw on the battlefield -- and has seen of Cersei -- he would know that as things stand, Cersei would swallow an armistice like Olenna swallowed poison: at once, as the necessary precursor to landing a blow. Instead we have Tyrion advising his Queen to dispatch her last potential ally and love interest, and her most cherished and faithful advisor up North, beyond the Wall, on a snark hunt. (And if it's snark they want...)

"Tyrion, above all." He'd appreciate that phrase.,

[janjan]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

"Tyrion, above all." He'd appreciate that phrase.,

Yock yock. But he chastised Theon for making dwarf jokes.

Another painful scene: Dinklage and Nickolaj, "Do you think I asked to be born this way?" Ouch.

And semi-painful: Gendry to Jon, "You're shorter [than Ned]." But they both smiled.

Dunno how tall Harington is, but when he was on "Late Night," Seth Myers towered over him. We all saw that, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4

[janjan]

On 8/14/2017 at 0:11 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

Band of Brooders: Tormund Giantsbane, Jorah Mormont, Gendry, Jon Snow, Thoros of Mir, Berrick Dondarion, & The Hound.

Hee! Though Thoros at least gets drunk, and Gendry has been known to smile (at Arya) (I'm still shipping them). Come to think of it, what non-brooders have we ever seen except Bronn and my beloved Oberyn? Well, Olenna, I guess <sniff>.

I think Jon can be King of the Seven Kingdoms despite that pesky NW vow. Getting killed seems to have annulled it. And Dany will be busy with the dragons. It's not easy being a single Mom with three growing boys. And growing. And growing. Drogon is HUGE! As Pallas said, truly great special effects there.

But can Sam be Lord of House Tarly? I imagine he breaks his vow of chastity regularly.

[gingerella]

Basically, the Iron Throne has gone from a Mad King to a Lazy Fat King to a Mad Boy King to a Wishy Washy Boy King to a Mad Queen. Am I missing anybody? It's not exactly a great lineage or track record, is it?!? It can be summed up as A Mad King to a Mad Queen, with a few freaks and geeks thrown in between the two. Then we've got Dany, who talks a good game about being a breaker of chains and breaking the wheel and leaving the world better than they found it, yet talking more and more like her father than anything new. I'm beginning to think now that Dany isn't going to Outlast/Outplay this game. I have a feeling, suddenly, that she will could be colateral damage since we see now that Jon has a connection with Drogon and thus, might be able to control the dragons without their mother present. Just a feeling I'm getting...

[Anothermi]

Arriving a little late to the Wall this ep. Lots of good observations have been made. Kudos all around but I have to single out a few spitballers for special mention:

In The Queen's Justice Choc wrote:

Quote

Also, I really think they should assign a special team to capture one of those zombies, so they can send the zombie locked up in a cage to Dany. That is the only way she may believe how real the whole Dead Army is.

Nailed the concept Choc...  if not the person to be impressed. I wouldn't lock the cage when sending it to Cersei though.

And in the same episode discussion Thread Llywela wrote:

Quote

Also, when Dany made that remark about people liking what they are good at, and Jon immediately said that he doesn't like what he's good at, I was reminded of him saying last week that although he'd accepted his role as king in the north for the sake of all the bannermen etc who wanted him to lead them, he never wanted the title or the responsibility. And now I'm having visions of Psychic Bran telling everyone that Rhaegar Targaryen was secretly married to Lyanna Stark, making Jon the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms, and Jon being absolutely horrified at the thought of it!

I thought that spitball was so far off base that I could only take it as a joke. Psychic Llywela!

Poor Jon.  The only thing that makes me feel somewhat better about the concept of Jon being considered the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms (and everyone wanting him to be) is that Maester Aemon - of the Night's Watch - was supposed to become the next King and refused it and took the black. Too bad that ultimately resulted in his nephew, the Mad King, moving up in the line of succession.

I know that human society needs their hierarchical structures and have real problems adjusting to rapid change, but I've been hoping for an ending with a more radical change than which protagonist gets the Throne. Broken  Wheels was my hope. That idea was formed way back when we knew nothing and had the freedom to imagine many possibilities. I guess I'm feeling the pressure of the end approaching, and approaching rapidly.

---------------------------------------------------------------

It is still a bit disquieting how frequently our wishes are being granted and our "mentions" suddenly appearing in the next episode or two. I remember being afraid to spitball something positive as A Show always made us regret it. Not any more:

 - Gendry appears this ep after we've teasingly suggested that he might pick up Theon who was floating aimlessly after Urine's attack or suggested that he might be waiting on the shore of Dragonstone to row Melissandre to Volantis. I love that last one just for the irony. Anybody else know we'd see him as soon as Davos said "I have some business in Fleabottom."? And clearly a shout out to the fandom when Davos said "I thought you were still rowing."

- Knifey appeared last episode after we listed known Valyrian steel weapons. I was rewarded for spitballing that Littlefinger would have it. Oh how A Show has changed!

- Ravengrams start being sent again right after my rant last episode at the lack of them (in regards to Bran and Arya being alive).

- Bran starts patrolling the north for the AotD right after Choc complains about him doing nothing. I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but it appeared that Bran was warging ALL of those ravens. I saw at least 3 on one branch (before they took flight) whose eyes became that milky-white  that Bran's do when he heads out of his body.  That is not something we've seen before. Mass warging (except, if my spitball hit's it's mark, the Night King and the not-yet-undead dead at HardHome).

 

Chocbutterfly wrote:

Quote

Oh, and see? I told you all Jon was going to be the Second Dragon Rider! That scene with Drogon was just a preface of it. It showed us the dragon recognizes a Targaryan. The Third Rider will be Warging Bran.

Yes you did Choc and much as I hate the idea re: Jon (I'm on board with your Bran spitball) it looks quite probable at the moment.

WhiteStumbler wrote:

Quote

Band of Brooders: Tormund Giantsbane, Jorah Mormont, Gendry, Jon Snow, Thoros of Mir, Berrick Dondarion, & The Hound.

Love that one Stumbler!

I've some thoughts on another one of yours:

Quote

Which makes me wonder about the zomboni that attacked Lord Cmdr Mormont way back. Benjen said that "The Wall is not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic to protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass." So why didn't the zomboni just crumble to dust when it crossed the halfway point in the tunnel on the way to Castle Black before it could attack Mormont? How could the magic that animates them have any effect on the other side of The Wall?

That is certainly puzzling. It seems, though, that the WWs have gotten stronger and more powerful as the story has developed. The Wight that attacked Lord Cmdr Mormont was identified as part of Benjen's ranger party. Benjen said the WW left him to "turn" and the *Children of the Forest stopped that by putting a shard of dragonglass through his heart. If it took time for Benjen to "turn" at that point in the story it suggests that it would take time for the other Rangers to "turn" as well. Putting aside the sticky issue of who brought the two corpses so close to the Castle Black entrance, the two Rangers were dead when they were brought inside and it wasn't until later that night that the one became a zomboni and attacked Cmdr Mormont. Perhaps they sneaked in before the curfew ancient spells could identify them?  But yeah, still not clear if the blue-eyed wonders would remain active if taken farther south. Perhaps they do and that is why the hand that Thorne was supposed to deliver never arrived. It just wandered off on it's own.

(*side note: the CHoF didn't do the same for Benjen's companions - or other newly dead for that matter - which indicates to me that Benjen's Starkness was the reason for working their magic on him. More fodder for Pallas's Night King-was-a-Stark-ancestor spitball.)

Edited August 16, 2017 by Anothermi
clean up

[janjan]

Welcome back, Anothermi. We missed you.

Good catch about Bran warging all the ravens buzzing the AotD. I had assumed those were the crows that swarmed Sam & Son when he ended up killing the WW, with Bran just flying in under cover. But the Night King looked -- what? worried? -- when he looked up at them, and then they did that beautiful spiraling thing. Yes indeed, those weren't Sam's crows. I wonder if NK knows he's being watched by a hostile force and what he makes of that.

[Anothermi]

24 minutes ago, janjan said:

I wonder if NK knows he's being watched by a hostile force and what he makes of that.

That was the point of the former TER telling Bran that the Night King touched him. No matter how Bran may try to disguise himself. The Night King can now see through it. That was why Bran got himself outta there PDQ! He's got a lot more skills in that regard since The Door.

What is needed is others who can warg. I'm a little confused because I'm sure Bran has the ability to see things as they are happening in the present but elsewhere. Don't understand why he's not doing that.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Anothermi
clarity

[WhiteStumbler]

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Don't understand why he's not doing that.

I think it is a matter of plot, unfortunately. The story needed Bran to complete his training and be an all-seeing, time traveling 3ER with warg abilities, but still make it to the other side of The Wall before the Army of the Dead made that impossible. He is now back home, more of a collection of mysterious abilities than an actual character anymore, but he has (presumably) some important part to play... later. So right now the plot has to keep him sort of on ice (except for his "send the ravens" message to the maester) - he can't say too much without revealing where the story is going.

[Pallas]

12 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I know that human society needs their hierarchical structures and have real problems adjusting to rapid change, but I've been hoping for an ending with a more radical change than which protagonist gets the Throne. Broken  Wheels was my hope. That idea was formed way back when we knew nothing and had the freedom to imagine many possibilities.

But the spokes of the wheel -- the feudal system and particularly, male-preference succession -- are already broken. Lands without a leader: Highgarden, Dorne, and the Riverlands (?: status unclear with Edmure still Milk-Cartoned, the Frey males now dead and the Lannisters already the real power). Great Houses or You-Think-You're-So-Great Houses now led by a woman, out of the direct line of succession: Stark, Targaryen, Lannister and, presumably, former banner-house Frey. Lands currently ruled by a conquering, self-anointed Queen: Westeros (sans Northos) and Essos. 

Broken Wheels is still my hope. Dany just now spoke the words out loud again: on the ground in Westeros to common soldiers, not only high above Mereen to Tyrion. 

 

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Then we've got Dany, who talks a good game about being a breaker of chains and breaking the wheel and leaving the world better than they found it, yet talking more and more like her father than anything new. I'm beginning to think now that Dany isn't going to Outlast/Outplay this game.

 

Jon too told his men of the Night's Watch to obey him or die, and followed through. (Those men weren't just some extras in soiled armor, true. They had broken oaths to follow their Lord Commander. But so had the Tarleys broken their oaths to Dany's ally, House Tyrell.) Dany has continued not to simply win, to obliterate King's Landing and then impose her rule. She's lost allies and taken great risks so as not to simply win. She listened to Tyrion and later quoted him to Olenna, Yara and Ellaria ("I'm not going to be queen of the ashes"); she listened to Jon and only after heeding him and advancing anyway, reminded Jon that you don't get to break the wheel until you own it. 

A Song of Fire and Ice. It keeps being pointed out that both Dany and Jon are leaders because their people chose them. That concept cracks the hub.

[Anothermi]

Well, @Pallas. When you put it that way...

I guess I can hope that A Show gives us a hint of the Changes to Come before the final credits roll. That is assuming the AotD don't win. That could be Jon's new catch phrase. He should have wished Danaerys well in the Changes to Come instead of the Wars to Come.

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

So right now the plot has to keep him sort of on ice (except for his "send the ravens" message to the maester) - he can't say too much without revealing where the story is going.

Good point Stumbler. I cut him some slack as a character due to the rigors of being the 3TR, but I agree that has to apply to the plot as well. He may not be a bookwalker, but if he wasn't inscrutable he'd spoil everyone. ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------

When Ser Jorah reappeared I thought a lot of the tension between him and Jon was not just rivalry for Dany's attention but both Jon and Jorah being aware that Jorah had brought disgrace to the Mormont family name - not to mention that it was Jon's (putative) father who banished him. That WAS why Jon ended up with the family sword. I liked how circumspect Jon was (for Danys sake?) when he only spoke of his admiration for the father when warmly introduced to the son.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

Urg. Me again. Just remembered some other stuff.

Sam & fam heading off on a wagon to.... somewhere. Has to be north given the position of Old Town on the map in the intro with theme music. (BTW interesting to see Eastwatch highlighted in the opening this episode. Not much there, unless most of Eastwatch is built into the ice Wall.)

Given the time-travel conundrum we must always grapple with, who thinks Sam will be where he is headed next ep due to the Littlefinger Effect? Who thinks by this season's last ep? How about next season? It took Sam & fam quite a long time, comparatively, to just make it to the Tarly homestead. Old Town and the Citadel are shown to be on the south-west coast of Westeros. Kind of at the same latitude as Dorne. That's not a short trip. 

And more on Sam: 

I'm pretty sure he is unaware that his father and brother have been killed, and by a member of the same house and in the same manner that Jon's grandfather and uncle were (except with Dragons this time). When he learns this I think he's going to have questions for Jon about the wisdom of the alliance with Danaerys. Having said that, Sam is no Ned. He's the opposite actually. Slow temper, Quick mind.

Another Jon/Sam parallel - Jon idealized the Night's Watch before he got there and learned they were mostly criminals, prisoners, and bastards. Sam idealized the Citadel before he got there and learned they were mostly bureaucratic functionaries, bookworms and self-satisfied pedants. (current Arch Maester excepted). The difference is that Jon learned to embrace his brothers and Sam didn't find the maesters that embraceable. 

[WhiteStumbler]

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Littlefinger Effect?

HA! Might have to rename it the Urine Effect - He went from KL to attacking the Rebel Greyjoy fleet to KL again to attacking the Unsullied fleet (on the opposite side of the continent!) within three episodes!!

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Sam is no Ned. He's the opposite actually. Slow temper, Quick mind.

<applause> Brilliant. Nicely drawn parallels. Both of them had skills (arms training for Jon, smarts and a desire to "be a wizard" for Sam) that should have lifted them high in those respective societies. Jon ended up dead, Sam ended up ignored.

WARNING! The next episode has been leaked online. Again. Be careful out there my friends.

I will be unable to watch until sometime mid-week next week. There is an eclipse to watch. I am going to try to avoid newsertainment / social media until then.

[Anothermi]

On 2017-08-14 at 5:45 AM, ChocButterfly said:

I don't understand Tyrion's plan. I mean, of course they should have caught a zombie already to show ALL the houses and the Maesters that the thread is real. But Tyrion above all people should now that that's not going to work with Cersei. What? He thinks she's going to join forces with them to battle the Dead? She'll only take this opportunity to betray them.

She said as much to Jaime, albeit in code:

Cersei: Do you think anything of importance happens in this city without me knowing?

Jaime: You let it happen. Why?

Cersei: I've come to believe that an accommodation with the Dragon Queen could be in our immediate interest. She has the numbers. If we want to beat her, we have to be clever. We have to fight her like Father would have.

How can we forget the mastermind behind the Red Wedding! The Lannisters send their regards.

On 2017-08-14 at 9:16 AM, Pallas said:

I would love to see Sansa perceive that play and thwart it: make a stand against Littlefinger's machinations, and Arya's terrible swift sword. Along with Jon, among the remaining Stark children it is Sansa who speaks for "Working together --" more and more, it seems, the lyric of this saga. 

Yes, given positive role models (Jon) Sansa has moved away from the Cersei model we heard her articulate during the meeting where Jon was declared King in the North. Arya, on the other hand, has next to no knowledge of how dangerous and manipulative Littlefinger is. I, too, hope Sansa sees this latest tactic of his early enough to thwart it. (Varys was pretty good at that. That was what made them fun to watch)

Cersei's been able to think ahead and plan based on what she has come to know about people. Hopefully, Sansa learned some of that. THAT is useful.

On 2017-08-14 at 9:11 AM, WhiteStumbler said:

This one felt a bit rushed to me. From Dragonstone to Eastwatch at light speed (AKA the Littlefinger Constant). Gendry from working as a blacksmith (on the poetically named Street of Steel) to north of The Wall in what felt like 48 hours. Everyone goes from 'I don't like you and you don't like me' to going on a playdate to find a zomboni in even less time. And Jorah is along for the ride!

I've been finding the story a bit rushed since the start of this season and creeping in since Season 6. Love your "I don't like you. I don't like you either. Let's go on a playdate!" analogy. LOL.

Speaking of Jorah... It's taken me a while to piece together how he knew Thoros of Mir, forensically speaking. We know of Thoros due to tales of his flaming sword shared by Jory (RIP) and Jaime back in Season 1. (I know it was Berrick who fought the Hound with a flaming sword when the Bw/oB captured him along with Arya and Gendry, but Berrick wasn't known for that until he joined up with Thoros. It's a Lord of LIght thing. Bear with me.) The battle Jory and Jaime were talking about was the Greyjoy Rebellion (from the context of the conversation IIRC).

Also in Season 1: Jorah spoke to Dany about the men advising Robert Baratheon. He knew them because he had fought in battles with them. He knows Thoros, ergo (love using that word) he would have fought with him during the Greyjoy Rebellion. I remember wondering which battles Jorah would have fought in. We know he was from a House loyal to the Warden of the North, and Jory is the same. Jory 1st encountered Thoros in the Greyjoy Rebellion so it is reasonable to assume that is where Jorah met him as well.

I also love solving a good puzzle. ;-)

[gingerella]

I just have one question for you all, Wall Brethren...How the hell do you remember all these details from S1?!? I am left feeling like I am the Hot Pie of the group...

*shuffles off to bake a Westerosi pasty*

[ChocButterfly]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

I just have one question for you all, Wall Brethren...How the hell do you remember all these details from S1?!? I am left feeling like I am the Hot Pie of the group...

*shuffles off to bake a Westerosi pasty*

I'm with you there. I was just reading and wondering, not only how do they remember all this, but also, who the he'll is Jory??

[Llywela]

Hehe, I remember season 1 much better than the seasons that followed - if only because it's the only season we managed in our group rewatch before Real Life depressed us all out of continuing! (Jory was Ned's right hand man in S1, right up until Jaime shoved a knife through his eye)

I've only just managed to watch this episode, and everything worth commenting on has already been said somewhere up-thread. I was happy to see Gendry again at last, and loved his reunion with Davos and meeting with Jon - those three might have been born to hang out together!

On 16/08/2017 at 3:12 AM, Anothermi said:

I thought that spitball was so far off base that I could only take it as a joke. Psychic Llywela!

I meant it as a joke! I never thought A Show would actually go there! At least, not at the time I first said it, although I did start to think it might actually be possible sometime last week. I'm intrigued now to find out how the truth will further unfold, since it is bound to do so - no point having it hinted at if the information isn't eventually going to find its way into the hands of someone in a position to do something about it. At the moment, however, the information means nothing to Gilly, and Sam wasn't listening to realise she was talking about Prince Rhaegar - if he had been, surely he would know enough about the history of Robert's Rebellion to realise how significant this is, even without knowing about Jon.

Oh, and Sam left the Citadel before anyone told him about his father and brother's deaths. He hated his father, but it is still going to hit him hard. He can't take up his place as rightful heir, though, since he has taken the Black.

Fascinated by the scene of Jon and Drogon - I reckon those predicting Jon as second dragonrider are bang on. Also, I've never been a shipper, but the googly eyes Jon and Dany are making at each other are hard to miss! She didn't even ask him to bend the knee in this episode, instead came as close as she possibly could to admitting she likes having him around. And she did say when she left Dario in Essos that she anticipated making a political marriage in Westeros - even allowing for Jon being her nephew (which shouldn't bother a Targaryen at all), a match between them would resolve that whole pesky 'bend the knee' thing by uniting north and south! But for now...war comes before romance, for both of them.

And once again Jon ducked away from admitting that he was murdered and resurrected, and given everything else, I'm starting to think it is less about thinking she won't believe him and more about not wanting to think about or face up to what happened to him. Like, he admitted at the time that it made him uncomfortable, he's said (I think) that he wouldn't want to be brought back again, so I think not telling Dany about it has more to do with his issues than hers.

One thing I really appreciated in this episode was seeing unease among the various sets of allies. That rang very true - just because a group of people have chosen to ally with one another, doesn't mean they are always going to agree. I loved the scene of Tyrion and Varys drinking to console themselves after Dany delivered Fiery Death by Dragon to the Tarlys - both so worried, remembering what her father was, both trying to convince themselves she won't go the same way.

The antagonism between Sansa and Arya was also painful, yet felt very real and true to both characters. It's such a sibling thing - no matter how much you change and grow, no matter how much time you spend apart, something about getting back together with siblings brings out all the old childhood squabbles and insecurities. Not to mention that Arya is something of a fish out of water at Winterfell just at the moment, wandering around devoid of any purpose - while Sansa runs the joint. Sansa has found her place, she is now doing the job she trained all her life to do - but Arya? She's spent the last few years training to become an assassin, single-minded in her pursuit of her goal, the death of her enemies. Now she has given up on that quest, at least for a time, and returned home - but home is different, and so is Arya, and she seems to be really feeling that. Not to mention that the last few years have taught her a very healthy paranoia that she can't seem to shake - but also isn't entirely certain where to direct it. Littlefinger is the right target...Sansa, however, isn't. But will Arya realise that?

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

And she did say when she left Dario in Essos that she anticipated making a political marriage in Westeros - even allowing for Jon being her nephew (which shouldn't bother a Targaryen at all), a match between them would resolve that whole pesky 'bend the knee' thing by uniting north and south! But for now...war comes before romance, for both of them.

Well, I'm sure if they marry, Dany will demand Jon bend the knee on their wedding eve, but it will be for entirely different reasons...

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

Littlefinger is the right target...Sansa, however, isn't. But will Arya realise that?

Amen to this! Arya can be very hotheaded, but hopefully she can see past LF's charade. Perhaps she talks with Brienne about LF and Brienne sets Arya straight about him. Brienne knows he's a snake hiding in plain sight, doesn't she?

[Anothermi]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

I just have one question for you all, Wall Brethren...How the hell do you remember all these details from S1?!? I am left feeling like I am the Hot Pie of the group...

*shuffles off to bake a Westerosi pasty*

 

9 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

I'm with you there. I was just reading and wondering, not only how do they remember all this, but also, who the he'll is Jory??

Heh. As Llywela said, I've found re-watching does wonders for my memory! (and not re-watching leads to "Oh, Duh!" posts like the rant I made about Dany's ships due to not having re-watched beyond S06E02 in prep for this season. >.<  Thanks again, Llywela for straightening me out on that one.)

The downside of a lot of re-watching is that it takes up a lot of time and makes for a very flat butt. I was reminded of a LOT of other stuff putting the What-We-Know-About-The-CHoF post together. Much of it not related to that post.

The upside of all that re-watching is that all those fragments of memories from A Show's history become a lot clearer and easier to link together and make sense of. I'm finding the challenge Bran is facing a lot more relate-able. 

* Ging, can you make a Westrosi pasty in the shape of my avatar "AcK!"? <nice fur ball. down.>*

Happy for you that you kept your resolve, Llywela,  but very glad you made it back.

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

I loved the scene of Tyrion and Varys drinking to console themselves after Dany delivered Fiery Death by Dragon to the Tarlys - both so worried, remembering what her father was, both trying to convince themselves she won't go the same way.

This one stood out for me as well. I even made a post about it above but lost the post to some internet-gremlin interference and forgot about it when I posted the reconstruction.

When I re-watched that scene I started feeling like Varys was beginning to feel complicit in the Mad King's burning of Rickard and Brandon Stark (perhaps among others, but that burning was pivotal). It would be an apt parallel. Tyrion was miserable because he stood by and watch Dany burn the Tarly father and son. Varys would have been among those who stood by and watched the Mad King burn the Stark father and son. He said something about telling himself (over and over) that all he did was find traitors, he didn't make the decision to burn them. But, as he said to Tyrion way back in S04 after his damning testimony at Tyrion's regicide trial: "Sadly, my lord, I remember everything."  His detailed memory of what it was like to watch someone burn to death, this episode, confirms that.

Is this the first time Varys has shown so much of his inner feelings? He's usually, and predictably, inscrutable. He knows he's not one to fight back, his sense of self preservation is dominant. But in the scene you wrote about he seemed to be expressing some form of doubt about his role in past events. Is it possible that after all this time Varys is getting some character development? And could this be related to Melissandre's cryptic comment alluding to Varys dying in Westeros - like she expects to? Coming from her it's more like a prophecy.

And speaking of Mel's comment to Varys that she must come back to Westeros to die...

Another nugget I stumbled upon while re-watch searching for the time we last saw Gendry (to up-date the Milk Carton Campaign for him) was this tidbit spoken by Stannis to Davos regarding what Melissandre had seen in the fire:

The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends... unless I triumph.

From the perspective of Season 7 that sounds like a reference to the White Walkers (the Darkness) and the long winter (the night that never ends). Stannis did triumph over the Wildling Army led by Mance Rayder which set up the path for the leadership of Jon Snow. (I recall Mel gave him quite the Look when they went up the elevator to the top of the Wall together. Some here speculated that she might have seen that Jon was The One, not Stannis. I think she could have seen that, but didn't want to mess with her initial reading about Stannis so dismissed the feeling.) Unfortunately for Shireen, both Stannis and Mel were deluded into believing Stannis was destined for more than just opening a door for 'know-nothing' Jon Snow.

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

It's such a sibling thing - no matter how much you change and grow, no matter how much time you spend apart, something about getting back together with siblings brings out all the old childhood squabbles and insecurities.

I felt that was in play, back an episode or two, with the look on Sansa's face when she watch Arya spar with Brienne. Your post is an excellent description of the dynamic I was referring to. (OK, Davos, ok ... 'to which I was referring.')  These are just the kind of circumstances Littlefinger uses to "... dwell in all circumstances and outcomes at once". <shudder>

[Pallas]

On 8/16/2017 at 5:09 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

Might have to rename it the Urine Effect

-- Trying to write his name on Jon Snow.

I wanted to applaud this:

On 8/14/2017 at 0:11 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

Jon didn't just want to be "not a bastard", he wanted to be Ned Stark's Son. He wanted to be an equal to the brothers and sisters he grew up with, not looked down on and treated with contempt by the only mother figure he had. I think knowing he is the legitimate son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targeryen won't change a lot about the past.

Jon did want to be Ned Stark's Son, an equal among Ned's children. And probably, to proudly play his father's role among the sons: to be as good a "spare" to Robb as Ned himself was to his own brother Brandon, and as freely admired and imitated by the younger sons as Ned likely was by Benjen. To have a sister who could love him, fiercely, more than she loved any other of her siblings, and have this preference smiled upon by both their parents. 

Knowing he was born a prince will not give him that childhood. But what he gets instead is his birthright: two names and a story. The two names in the one story of how he came to be (and not any of a dozen fantasies). A story that will come to feel inevitable and not barely imaginable, inevitable and not imagined. 

Not just his own story, of course, but those of his parents. The romance that created Jon also gave birth to two decades of abominations, one after another. Jon, who says he doesn't blame the child for the sins of the parents, may nonetheless feel more shame about the aftermath of his royal birth than he did as the son of some Southern girl who caught Ned on an off day. But then again, as it turns out, Ned Stark's story wasn't over yet. Ned will tell Jon about his mother when next they meet, through Bran, and Jon will have the story that may matter most: who he was to Ned.

On 8/18/2017 at 8:28 AM, Llywela said:

And once again Jon ducked away from admitting that he was murdered and resurrected, and given everything else, I'm starting to think it is less about thinking she won't believe him and more about not wanting to think about or face up to what happened to him.

That sounds likely. After all, Jon did nothing; he was dead. Dead because betrayed by his brothers, including his protege who killed his love, Ygritte; dead because, like Ned, he didn't see it coming -- not from whence it came. And he was resurrected by magic that doesn't seem to be part of any world he knows or was taught to believe. 

 

On 8/18/2017 at 8:28 AM, Llywela said:

Not to mention that Arya is something of a fish out of water at Winterfell just at the moment, wandering around devoid of any purpose - while Sansa runs the joint. Sansa has found her place, she is now doing the job she trained all her life to do - but Arya? (snip, for space) ...the last few years have taught her a very healthy paranoia that she can't seem to shake - but also isn't entirely certain where to direct it. Littlefinger is the right target...Sansa, however, isn't. But will Arya realise that?

That whole paragraph about Arya and Sansa was brilliant. And the preceding, about Varys and Tyrion, leading to Anothermi's reply: 

On 8/18/2017 at 6:43 PM, Anothermi said:

Is this the first time Varys has shown so much of his inner feelings? He's usually, and predictably, inscrutable. He knows he's not one to fight back, his sense of self preservation is dominant. But in the scene you wrote about he seemed to be expressing some form of doubt about his role in past events. Is it possible that after all this time Varys is getting some character development? And could this be related to Melissandre's cryptic comment alluding to Varys dying in Westeros - like she expects to? Coming from her it's more like a prophecy.

Related to that, and to Dany's promise that if Varys betrays her, she will set him on fire. I'm not at all sure he will turn against Dany -- he may die defending her -- but die he will. To me it would be interesting if Varys didn't finally act the hero and sacrifice himself, if his story remained that he never found anything in life worth dying for.

I don't think even one member of the older generation makes it out of this saga alive. Among the leading characters: with the exception of Tyrion, anyone alive during the last Targaryen reign will not live to see whatever follows Cersei's. 

[supposebly]

All I could think at the end: I'd rather stay in the cell freezing than out there. Bad choice.