A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Shanna Marie]

If this were a tightly plotted show where everything fit together and made sense, then we'd know the various anomalies probably meant something. But they're so consistently inconsistent that it's hard to tell what they're doing on purpose and what's an error.

Take the curse and the whole "the curse has to break for Lucy to live but Henry will die if the curse breaks" thing. In season one, Emma broke the frozen in time part of the curse when she decided to stay in town. She broke the sleeping curse on Henry with a TLK, but because she was the Savior whose DNA was built into the curse, it also broke the memory/identity part of the curse for the whole town. In season 3, the memory spell wasn't really a part of the curse. It was an add-on from Zelena, and they acted like Henry was the one who was magically able to break curses, with them searching for the storybook to use to make him believe. Never mind that Emma was already believing when she got whammied by the book. She turned to the book after she realized it was all true. There's not really any reason that a TLK between Henry and Regina should have broken the memory part of the curse then. Neither of them are a Savior, neither were built into the spell. If it's any TLK, then why didn't a kiss between Snow and David break it? They knew who they were, and they have certified magical True Love. Now there's absolutely no reason to think that Henry would have anything to do with breaking the current curse, and I still don't get why breaking the memory part -- the part they've always referred to when they said the curse was "broken" -- would kill Henry or why breaking the memory spell would save Lucy. Really, it seems like it would only work that way because that's what happened in season one (under an entirely different set of circumstances). It's also rather darkly ironic that Lucy came to Henry demanding that he break the curse to save his family when it turns out that (supposedly) breaking the curse will kill him.

Or there's stuff like the motorcycle that's still running after more than ten years away from anything resembling a gas station. It now really looks like they honestly hadn't thought of that until Colin pointed it out on the ComicCon panel, and they've made no attempt whatsoever to even handwave an explanation since then -- no Regina putting a spell on it, no reference to Regina having put a fuel spell on it, no reference to it being converted to run on biofuel from the grease scavenged from Ye Olde Tavern franchises. It's not enough to say "it's a fantasy show." If it were a magic flying broom, then I'd buy that it flies because of magic. But when it's a regular motorcycle from our world, you have to establish that there's magic involved in keeping it going without fuel.

The timeline is such a mess that there's nothing they could do that will make it all make sense, short of teen Henry waking up in 2017 after falling asleep while watching Sleepless in Seattle and telling Regina about this crazy dream he had. Part of the problem is that they've always been inconsistent about showing the passing of time with the characters. They put Emma in glasses, a ponytail, and a different wardrobe to show her as a teen, but they did nothing to de-age Neal, so he ended up looking like a middle-aged man preying on a teenager. They've been good about showing the progression of Regina's age from young and innocent, gradually growing darker, not quite evil queen, to evil queen. You can generally tell from the hair, makeup, and costume in a flashback where it comes in her progression. On the other hand, after Hook's Lt. Jones phase, he hasn't changed a bit, not even his clothes, from the time he met Milah to at least eight years later, to the time Whook joined up with Henry and Regina, to when Lucy was eight years old. If anything, he looks younger now than he did when Milah ran off with him because he had a fuller beard and they seemed to have darkened it then, while now he's just got the reddish stubble, which makes him look younger. Unless there's some twist in the timeline, Hook should have been in his 40s when he and Regina came to rescue Henry, and Whook should be in his 50s at the time the curse was cast, but there's no difference from the time he was in his early 20s. The writers had to clarify on Twitter that Henry left town after 2017 because they were so inconsistent with his age that it depended on which age stamp you were going by what age he'd have been in 2017. He aged from 12 to 14 in a few months of show time, while a baby who was born when he was 12 was still an infant. If you're going by the 14, he could have maybe graduated from high school in 2017, so they can't really blame us for thinking that's when he left town, even though it doesn't work if you're going by the fact that he was 10 and in fourth grade during the 2011-2012 school year.

And then there's all the weirdness that came this season, not even counting the fact that they're in 2017, before Henry left home. Alice really puts a crimp in things. If she's supposed to be about the same age as Robin in the present, then she's about 25, which means she would have been about 16 or so when she and WHook were reunited. But she doesn't look at all different. She would have been born about 24 years into the curse, which means WHook would have been in his 50s when she was born, and that lines up with Old Hook being around 70 before he was changed. But, again, WHook looked no different when Alice was born than he did when our Hook was in his early 20s. There are reasons why Drizella and Anastasia were frozen agewise (Anastasia being dead(ish) and Drizella spending eight years as a statue), but Murderella was a teenager before Alice was born, which means she'd have had to be in her 30s (at least, depending on how long Gothel was in the tower) when she met Henry and then should be in her 40s now. That's not far off from the actress's age, but I don't think that's what they mean to depict. Jacinda's life is even more ridiculous if she's in her 40s and only became a single mom in her 30s.

It will be the feat of the century if there's some plot device that makes all of this make any kind of sense. I really think the only thing that will ever be explained is how they're in 2017 now. The rest of it is just sloppiness.

[Camera One]

They make decisions regardless of whether it makes sense or not.  The aging up of Robin II because they wanted her in the story, while keeping Zelena exactly the same age, was very much the same problem as the aging up of Henry because they wanted him as the new protagonist, while keeping Hook, Regina, Emma, etc. the same age.  The fact that they had Regina make that "I'm not here to discuss timelines" comment shows that by the time they wrote Episode 10, they recognized there was an age/timeline issue.  Yet they decided to compound that issue in that very same episode.  This show takes place in a magical world and they could have explained Robin II's rapid aging in any myriad of ways (just like they write most of their plots of convenience), yet they decided not to.  These Writers are impossible to understand.

I can see them having a difficult time making a workable timeline for the returning characters while avoiding putting them in aging makeup, but as pointed out very clearly above, the timeline doesn't even work for characters they've created new, like Jacinda, Alice and Lady Tremaine.  

Edited December 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

38 minutes ago, Camera One said:

the timeline doesn't even work for characters they've created new, like Jacinda, Alice and Lady Tremaine.  

Technically, shouldn’t Alice be, like, at least 40 now? lol

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Technically, shouldn’t Alice be, like, at least 40 now? lol

All the events from this season are surprisingly hazy in my mind.  Could Gothel have been in the tower for a decade?  I don't remember if there was anything in the latest episode which pinpointed when Alice was born.  Adam said on Twitter we cannot assume that in the Wish Realm, Regina losing to Snowing and going to Whook and him going to The Tower happened 28 years before the Season 1 timestamp, and that was how people calculated Alice to be at least 40 now.  Not sure if it's my tired mind, or this show, but I can't work anything out.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Here's a fun puzzle the writers have created that has absolutely zero to do with the old characters. We know that Rapunzel was in the tower before Alice was born and Rapunzel was there for six years, so her kids must be at least 8-10 years older than Alice. However, according to Cinderella, "When I was a girl, my mother abandoned us. My father searched for an entire year, and followed her all the way here to Wonderland." He was attempting to get through the Infinite Maze, when the locket stopped working at Cecilia's death. Cecilia was poisoned after Drizella's tween birthday party, when Alice would have been only a few years old. Funny story, Alice was at the tea party when Cinderella's mother died and she was old enough to slay the Jabberwocky that attacked them. The tower and the Tremaines' house was in the same realm (or at least we know the aging was the same because of Rapunzel's history), so how did Alice, who was born years after Cinderella, somehow age enough to escape the tower (and we know she was old enough to play chess with Hook and for him to recognize her later) and get to Wonderland to slay the Jabberwocky that killed Cecilia? And if she was already that old when Cinderella was a little girl, why is she portrayed as younger than Cinderella in both the Enchanted Forest & Hyperion Heights? She's simultaneously aging more rapidly and not aging at all. This doesn't work.

Edited December 22, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Cecilia was poisoned after Drizella's tween birthday party, when Alice would have been only a few years old. 

Would Alice have been not born yet, since it was after Anastasia's death that Rapunzel/Tremaine sent Gothel to the Tower, and Whook would have gone to the Tower after that?  This is where my memory escapes me.  I don't remember the events of that episode too well and I don't plan to rewatch it.

15 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

"When I was a girl, my mother abandoned us. My father searched for an entire year, and followed her all the way here to Wonderland." He was attempting to get through the Infinite Maze, when the locket stopped working at Cecilia's death. 

Funny story, Alice was at the tea party when Cinderella's mother died and she was old enough to slay the Jabberwocky that attacked them.

Yes, Alice's age definitely makes no sense with the dates given in the script.  

15 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

She's simultaneously aging more rapidly and not aging at all. This doesn't work.

Dear fan,

We're glad you appreciate our incorporation of the paradoxes from "Alice in Wonderland" into this exciting new season.  We love Wonderland!

A&E

Edited December 22, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

Would Alice have been not born yet, since it was after Anastasia's death that Rapunzel/Tremaine sent Gothel to the Tower, and Whook would have gone to the Tower after that?  This is where my memory escapes me.  I don't remember the events of that episode too well and I don't plan to rewatch it.

It's not clear to me when Gothel ended up in the tower. I thought Rapunzel initially escaped by tricking Gothel, but that was not the case. Rapunzel first escaped because Gothel intended her to get out as part of her Guardian test. She sacrificed for her family, so Gothel gave her the poison to test whether she'd sacrifice someone else's happiness for hers.  It must have happened after Gothel placed Anastasia there after her "death". She mentioned how she had updated the magical protection on the tower after the first escape using blood magic. Since Gothel required someone of her bloodline to escape, it seems this occurred later in the story. Also, there was something about how Rapunzel had used the flower to trap Gothel and I don't have a clue how she'd have gotten the flower or known what it would do during her first term in the tower. It would make more sense if she sought out that information in an attempt to retrieve Anastasia's body from there and gain some form of revenge. Thus, it would make more sense for Alice to have been born after Anastasia's death, so Alice's age is even more ridiculous.

Maybe Alice has been reincarnated. Original!Alice slew the Jabberwocky, but later died. Reincarnated!Alice was born and raised by Hook, then was poisoned, escaped from the tower and ended up hanging out with Robin in another realm.

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

escaped from the tower and ended up hanging out with Robin in another realm.

Where apparently time moves “differently” enough that Robyn aged while her mother stayed young. But Alice remained the same age. Her dad became 60 years old in the Wish Realm. He looked the same as Hook Prime when Alice was born—he was probably around 30—35 if we stretch it. So, when old Hook was looking for Emma to break his Curse, it had been 30 years after Emma was born. Alice was at the minimum—20-25. Then, Lucy was born and aged up by 10 years when they were in HH. So, Alice should technically be 30-40. Unless she too spent all her time in a Realm where time is frozen or moves slowly than the DF.

And yes—she was born after Rapunzel cursed Ella’s mother and Marcus returned from Wonderland after failing to find her. However, we don’t know when the pendant stopped glowing indicating that whatshername had died. Or at least I can’t remember. Maybe she lived in Wonderland for 20 years or so, and then died. 

I don’t know why we bother, but I can’t seem to be able to let go of these timeline disasters. lol I don’t even care about this Season all that much.

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Take the curse and the whole "the curse has to break for Lucy to live but Henry will die if the curse breaks" thing.

Yeah, I get why Henry will die if the curse breaks, because Ivy set it up that way to make sure the curse won't be broken. But I still don't get what the curse has to do with Lucy's condition. Lucy is the way she is because she was used to wake Ana. So wouldn't Ana's death or return to coma be the requirement to wake Lucy up. Lucy's not even dead, so she is alive, even though the curse is still strong. So yeah, she's alive with or without the curse. Breaking the curse shouldn't magically wake her up. It just makes no logical sense.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Also, there was something about how Rapunzel had used the flower to trap Gothel and I don't have a clue how she'd have gotten the flower or known what it would do during her first term in the tower. It would make more sense if she sought out that information in an attempt to retrieve Anastasia's body from there and gain some form of revenge.

This was another out-of-nowhere twist where we supposedly got an answer (the moment Rapunzel sent Gothel to the Tower) but as you said, they never explained how Rapunzel knew what to do, how she got the flower, how she kept Anastasia alive, etc.  So that means "How Trepunzel became a Magic User" and "Were Drizella/Anastasia born with magic" are still unanswered questions which need to be answered to legitimize the abilities of those characters.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Where apparently time moves “differently” enough that Robyn aged while her mother stayed young.

I think we have it.  Zelena has her farm in "The Land of Anti-Aging Past The Age of 20", where children grow up but adults never look a day older.  It's a sub-realm within The Land of Bad Writing created by A&E and ruled by hollow bunnies.

[CCTC]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think we have it.  Zelena has her farm in "The Land of Anti-Aging Past The Age of 20", where children grow up but adults never look a day older.  It's a sub-realm within The Land of Bad Writing created by A&E and ruled by hollow bunnies.

It is the realm where soap opera characters raise their children.  It also allows you to wake with perfectly applied make-up.

[Mabinogia]

52 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think we have it.  Zelena has her farm in "The Land of Anti-Aging Past The Age of 20", where children grow up but adults never look a day older.  It's a sub-realm within The Land of Bad Writing created by A&E and ruled by hollow bunnies.

I think I would like to go to this magical place. Though I would have to build a fortress there, to prevent anyone from the other Land of Bad Writing realms from attacking with random plot points and squandered storylines. I will build an army of forgotten characters and we will overthrow the hollow bunnies with logic and razor sharp wit. Since they have never seen or heard of either of these weapons, they will be DESTROYED! MUAUUAUAHAAAA Then, since I'm a villain, I will be redeemed and live happily ever after. The end. (I may be experiencing a work party sugar high right now)

[Shanna Marie]

They've said that the timing of the curse in the Wishverse doesn't necessarily line up with when it happened in the original Enchanted Forest or in comparison to the Disenchanted Forest, but even there, there's no way to make Alice's age compared to everyone else work since they were all in the same world most of that time.

If Whook was in his mid-30s when he went to the Disenchanted Forest and Alice was born, then he'd only have been in his late 40s when he tried to replace Hook Prime, so why did he look so ancient? He would have been younger then than he is at Lucy's eighth birthday. And it seems that it had been nearly 10 years since the end of season 6, so he should have only been in his late 30s/early 40s when Emma saw him in the Wishverse, but he was 28 years older than Hook Prime then.

The only way Whook's age lines up is if he was already pretty old when Alice was born, considering he was obviously old nearly ten years ago when Emma met him.

Gothel went into the tower after Cecelia's disappearance/death because Rapunzel was remarried to her ex and they were one big, happy family again when Anastasia died, and Rapunzel sent Gothel into the tower rather than let Gothel put Anastasia in the tower. Anastasia and Drizella were pre-teens by then, and Ella seemed to be at least 15, several years older than the other girls. We don't know how long Gothel was in the tower before Whook came along. If Alice is around the same age as Robin 2.0, then that means Ella has to be around 40 in the present, at least. I guess maybe Cecelia was alive in Wonderland for a really long time before she died if Alice ever ran into her there and she took the necklace off to make her husband give up on her. And I still have to wonder how she knew what was going on to know she needed to leave, but she still didn't tell her family why she was leaving. If she knew it was Rapunzel, she left her family with a murderer.

You could maybe subtract a few years from Whook's and Regina's ages if time passed faster in the Disenchanted Forest than in Storybrooke, but Emma would have been at least 36 when Henry left home if he left when he was 18. It's hard to say how old Hook would be physically then because it's nearly impossible to cram his life into any timeline, and Colin is actually younger than Jen, but let's just say he's around Emma's age. Regina's got to be some years older than Emma. Even if they were the same age when they joined Henry and Whook copied Hook Prime as they were when Henry left, you've got to add nine or ten years to that age to get to the present, and they've been living in the same world where Lucy's been growing up, so time has passed for them. Yet they're treating Rogers like he's a reasonably young cop just being promoted to detective rather than him still being a beat cop who hadn't yet made detective in his late 40s (at least).

[KingOfHearts]

Regina and Zelena's ages could be explained away with anti-aging spells, which are canon. It would be in-character for them because they're both vain and big on their appearances. Gothel's agelessness wouldn't be far-fetched since the flower magic kept her young in the source material. Except for the kids growing into adults via SORAS, the visible aging isn't that huge of a deal. Rather, it's the lack of clothing/hairstyle changes and character development. Everyone acts like events that happened eight years ago happened yesterday.

[Shanna Marie]

26 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Rather, it's the lack of clothing/hairstyle changes and character development. Everyone acts like events that happened eight years ago happened yesterday.

That's where things get silly. This show has always been bad about forgetting the show timeline -- acting like events that happened before the season ending cliffhanger took place months ago even though in the show no time passed -- but here they're acting like days have gone by when it's been years. I don't really care whether they use old-age makeup, but do something to show that people have changed as time passes. Jen's short haircut was actually a perfect opportunity to show Emma 5-10 years (however long it was) later. Would a woman who'd been pregnant long enough to be sure she was pregnant and telling people be able to still wear the same skin-tight skinny jeans she's been wearing since she was 28? Hook changed from black jeans to blue jeans in all that time, with that being the only change, and then Whook is still wearing the same pirate clothes he's been wearing since he was in his early 20s, more than a century later. Henry's no different between the time he was running around looking to be a hero and the time he has an eight-year-old daughter.

The one thing that was drastically different with time was the relationship between Whook and Rumple, but then they haven't established what their relationship ever was. Did they get on better terms in the past decade or so? Were they never antagonistic because Whook wasn't Rumple's Hook and Rumple wasn't Whook's Rumple? We also don't know what Hook's relationship with Ella was like. Does she see him as her father-in-law even though he really isn't? Does he see her as like a daughter, even though Henry was a stranger to him not too long ago? He sacrificed the possibility for him to stay with his daughter so she could stay with hers, which says something, but we've barely seen them interact to know.

So, basically, no time has passed and it's all just the same as it ever was, except these characters now all have grown children.

The weird SORAS stuff wouldn't even be as much an issue if the other timeline stuff worked, and I still can't reconcile Alice's story with the story of Rapunzel and her family. Those things don't line up, even though there's that direct continuation.

[jhlipton]

You guys realize that the amount of time you took remembering how to spell "Alice" is more thought than A&E put in?

[KAOS Agent]

9 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

And yes—she was born after Rapunzel cursed Ella’s mother and Marcus returned from Wonderland after failing to find her. However, we don’t know when the pendant stopped glowing indicating that whatshername had died. Or at least I can’t remember. Maybe she lived in Wonderland for 20 years or so, and then died. 

Actually, we do. Cinderella specified that it was a year. Marcus was tracking Cecilia the whole time and was in the same realms that she was, so time could not have passed differently for them vs the Disenchanted Forest because Marcus didn't age any more than his children did.

[Camera One]

Hello fans,

The Infinite Maze has several exits, one of which is a wormhole.  When Cecelia (chased by Marcus) exited that wormhole, she ended up 20 years in the future, when Alice was already a teenager, and that's where/when she was killed and thus the pendant stopped glowing.

Whook looked so old in the Wish Realm because when Gothel poisoned his heart, she also made him look old and overweight.  

See.  We thought of everything.

A&E

Edited December 23, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Actually, we do. Cinderella specified that it was a year. Marcus was tracking Cecilia the whole time and was in the same realms that she was, so time could not have passed differently for them vs the Disenchanted Forest because Marcus didn't age any more than his children did.

I tried to to hand the writers a pass on this, but this puts the lid on it. @Camera One‘s wormhole explanation is the way to go. ;-)

[KAOS Agent]

I'd be willing to cut the writers some slack about timelines, but I've seen exactly two episodes this season and it only took me five minutes to figure out the major holes in this story. The Alice/Tremaine stuff is completely new this season. There is no reason why they couldn't have written a story that fit a reasonable timeline. Inserting a character that wasn't even born yet into a story where she needs to be an adult is a glaring problem. How is it that no one even thought about that? One assumes that there was some minimal planning when they were breaking the story. How hard would it be lay out a basic timeline when creating it? 

[Camera One]

The only two explanations to me are arrogance and incompetence, and in this case, I think it's a combination of both.  They think their story is too cool for school and the timeline and plot holes are not what the viewer "should" be focused on.  Their continuity issues were already rather high in previous seasons, but Jane or someone had said Andrew Chambliss was the expert, and he's now gone.  These are Writers who don't even bother re-reading their own episodes from previous seasons before writing new contradictory stuff.  

Apparently, they do write stuff on the white board.  I'm curious what they *do* write in order to come up with such colossal mistakes.  It's practically an art to be so ridiculously bad at planning.  They seem to act like their characters.  Each day they come in and it's like everything that happened before was irrelevant.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

11 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Actually, we do. Cinderella specified that it was a year. Marcus was tracking Cecilia the whole time and was in the same realms that she was, so time could not have passed differently for them vs the Disenchanted Forest because Marcus didn't age any more than his children did.

Maybe Cecelia was under the HookahDome, while Marcus had some Eat Me Cake.  Or.. Marcus cried a Lake of Tears which kept him young.  That's "glory" for you!

[Lady Calypso]

I can't even process the conflicting timelines anymore. My brain refuses to cooperate, so I just accept that nothing makes sense and I'm going to move on before my brain melts any further. My explanation is MAGIC. 

[Rumsy4]

51 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

My explanation is MAGIC. 

The writers finally wore you down to the state they were aiming for all along. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Apparently, they do write stuff on the white board.  I'm curious what they *do* write in order to come up with such colossal mistakes.  It's practically an art to be so ridiculously bad at planning.  They seem to act like their characters.  Each day they come in and it's like everything that happened before was irrelevant.

It's like Groundhog Day, but all the convolution of Tax Day. 

When analyzing S7, this guideline seems to be pretty consistent - "If it's obvious, it's probably true". There have been so many elements that seemed potentially interesting if the writers had taken a different direction from what they showed initially. Ivy, for instance, acted like the stereotypical bitchy step-sister. Yet, instead of making her gray or complex, the writers just multiplied her wickedness x10. So, the evil stepsister is... the evil stepsister. Then there's Lucy. The circumstances surrounding her birth were hidden for most of the arc, so there was no proof that she was Henry and Jacinda's biological daughter. You would think, "If she were their daughter, there would be timeline issues," and you would be correct. But, as it stands, Lucy is the boring daughter of boring parents. Her backstory is devoid of anything new or interesting. Plot holes were needed to create this character because we gotta repeat S1 in the crappiest way possible. As a third example, when Hook/Alice were playing chess in in either 7x04 or 7x05 (can't remember), we thought surely the hint she was his daughter was too soon and too obvious. TS,TW - that was exactly what it looked like.

The only exception was perhaps Rapunzel/Tremaine. It fit into the narrative okay. IMO, there isn't so much a disconnect between Rapunzel and Tremaine as there is between Rapunzel and herself. She went from a good-natured mother to coldblooded killer pretty quickly. Homicidal!Rapunzel fits perfectly with Tremaine. I never thought I'd write that sentence.

Edited December 23, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Mabinogia]

28 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The only exception was perhaps Rapunzel/Tremaine. It fit into the narrative okay. IMO, there isn't so much a disconnect between Rapunzel and Tremaine as there is between Rapunzel and herself. She went from a good-natured mother to coldblooded killer pretty quickly. Homicidal!Rapunzel fits perfectly with Tremaine. I never thought I'd write that sentence.

It was an interesting idea to turn Rapunzel's character into a dick before she became Tremaine, and by interesting I mean WTF where they thinking? What would have been interesting is if the curse altered sweet Rapunzel into bitchy Victoria the way it changed Regal Regina into Beerwench Roni. If the curse was responsible for changing the characters into something they didn't want to be, like a nice, sweet "anything for my family" mother into a bitchy mother who doesn't give a shit about her family, that would have been interesting, and actual torture since you are forcing people to act against their nature. 

What also could have been fun is if Lucy was the result of a spell. Ooh, or if the Henry/Ella true love wasn't true love at all, but the result of some spell or curse. How would they react if it wasn't actual true love but they only thought it was true love? 

IDK, I just feel like there were seeds of some good ideas here, but they squandered each and every one so far. 

[Camera One]

Quote

The only exception was perhaps Rapunzel/Tremaine. It fit into the narrative okay. IMO, there isn't so much a disconnect between Rapunzel and Tremaine as there is between Rapunzel and herself. She went from a good-natured mother to coldblooded killer pretty quickly. Homicidal!Rapunzel fits perfectly with Tremaine. I never thought I'd write that sentence.

The episode was sort of hazy to me, but was Rapunzel homicidal by the end of it?  I can sort of see why she would be tempted to poison Cecelia's heart.  The main disconnect for me at that point was she didn't see to feel bad about it afterwards.  I think she said that she didn't kill Cecelia, just separate her from Marcus.  That's still a huge leap to the plot to kill Marcus, or murdering the fairygodmother in cold blood.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The episode was sort of hazy to me, but was Rapunzel homicidal by the end of it?  I can sort of see why she would be tempted to poison Cecelia's heart.  The main disconnect for me at that point was she didn't see to feel bad about it afterwards.  I think she said that she didn't kill Cecelia, just separate her from Marcus.  That's still a huge leap to the plot to kill Marcus, or murdering the fairygodmother in cold blood.

The "Curse of the Poisoned Heart" actually wasn't mentioned when Gothel gave Rapunzel the mushroom. Gothel only told her it was would make Cecilia "go away", which could imply murder. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The "Curse of the Poisoned Heart" actually wasn't mentioned when Gothel gave Rapunzel the mushroom. Gothel only told her it was would make Cecilia "go away", which could imply murder. 

Victoria later said she didn't know.  She told Lucy, "The witch tricked me, Lucy.  She twisted the truth.  I was blinded by what was in my heart.  I needed my family to be together again..."  When Lucy asked if Cecelia died, Victoria said, "Gosh, no.  I could never hurt somebody like that, Lucy.  I knew the poison would only cause Ella's mother to flee.  What I didn't know was that Marcus would chase after her to Wonderland."

Ultimately, it's Cecelia's fault because she didn't do her research to find out whether Marcus' wife was truly dead and she didn't step aside when Rapunzel returned.  She ruined so many lives and ultimately is the cause of this new Curse.  Rapunzel represents all of us who have been betrayed by a loved one.  

As we visit the malls this holiday season, we should shed one little tear when we pass by "Victoria's Secret", in memory of all she went through to ensure her family was together.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Victoria later said she didn't know.  She told Lucy, "The witch tricked me, Lucy.  She twisted the truth.  I was blinded by what was in my heart.  I needed my family to be together again..."  When Lucy asked if Cecelia died, Victoria said, "Gosh, no.  I could never hurt somebody like that, Lucy.  I knew the poison would only cause Ella's mother to flee.  What I didn't know was that Marcus would chase after her to Wonderland."

Yet she's murdered like 3 people in cold blood. Yes, you'd never hurt anyone like that, Victoria.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Yet she's murdered like 3 people in cold blood. Yes, you'd never hurt anyone like that, Victoria.

She did it for FAMILY.  We can't think about the glass half full since this show is about hope.

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

She did it for FAMILY.  We can't think about the glass half full since this show is about hope.

She killed FAMILY for FAMILY? That sounds like this show.

[Mabinogia]

I wouldn't believe a word Victoria told Lucy. I wouldn't believe a word Victoria tells anyone actually. I don't trust that woman as far as I can throw her skinny ass. 

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

When analyzing S7, this guideline seems to be pretty consistent - "If it's obvious, it's probably true". There have been so many elements that seemed potentially interesting if the writers had taken a different direction from what they showed initially. Ivy, for instance, acted like the stereotypical bitchy step-sister. Yet, instead of making her gray or complex, the writers just multiplied her wickedness x10. So, the evil stepsister is... the evil stepsister. Then there's Lucy. The circumstances surrounding her birth were hidden for most of the arc, so there was no proof that she was Henry and Jacinda's biological daughter. You would think, "If she were their daughter, there would be timeline issues," and you would be correct. But, as it stands, Lucy is the boring daughter of boring parents. Her backstory is devoid of anything new or interesting. Plot holes were needed to create this character because we gotta repeat S1 in the crappiest way possible. As a third example, when Hook/Alice were playing chess in in either 7x04 or 7x05 (can't remember), we thought surely the hint she was his daughter was too soon and too obvious. TS,TW - that was exactly what it looked like.

They really do have a habit of going for the worst of all worlds. It's an arc-based series that's written in a very episodic manner, so that events happen because they're needed for that particular episode rather than because they're part of the ongoing story, but if you miss an episode, you're totally lost because it's all so convoluted. And they're allergic to setting things up or to using what they set up, like that would ruin the surprise, so many of their plot twists come out of nowhere and make no sense, and yet they usually go to the most boring possible outcome.

So, yeah, the evil stepsister is just an evil stepsister. She could have been a really sympathetic character in that she was neglected. Her mother was awful to her, for reasons that were on her mother to have dealt with (if a child isn't bonded with her mother, it's on her mother to fix it, not on the child to warm to her mother). She's mostly actually going after the person who wronged her. When she was being snarky while still also kind of helping Lucy, she had so much potential as a character. It's like in some of the versions of Cinderella (like Ever After), in which one of the evil stepsisters turns out to not be that bad and was only nasty as a form of self preservation.

I guess maybe it's a twist that Anastasia was never a wicked stepsister and was always pure and good and died trying to save Ella's life, except now watch her turn out to be the evil one when she gets sucked in by Gothel. And then Drizella is going to turn out to be the good one, and we'll be forced to forget all the evil she's done when she switches sides (only because she was betrayed) and joins the good guys. (Gee, where have we seen that before?)

Then there's Hook and Alice, where it seemed too obvious, and even more obvious when the promo showed their reunion. Surely he wouldn't just run into his long-lost daughter he's been desperately searching for all these years. Alice would just be someone who could help him find his daughter, both in past and present. Except no, they just skipped over the interesting part.

I would say they skipped the interesting part with Henry and Ella, but I'm not sure there's been any such thing. There's been absolutely no conflict, no obstacles. They're supposed to be the Snow and Charming of this season, but Snow and Charming were being kept apart in both past and present. Apparently nothing happened for Henry and Ella in the past because we skipped straight from them kissing because the necklaces lit up to the birth of their daughter. There was the vague threat of the curse, just because Drizella had said something earlier, but it looks like they just met, fell in love, and got married. That's nice when it happens in real life, but when fictional characters have nothing to overcome, it's boring. In the present, nothing's keeping them apart. When Roni tried to keep them apart because she remembered the truth, that lasted for an episode before she told him to fly back to Seattle. When Nick showed up, Jacinda wasn't even tempted for more than a minute or two and went straight to Henry. And this is supposed to be our "epic" True Love couple? Unless they fill in the flashbacks later with one of them whisked off to another land and the other having to find him/her, or one of them being under some kind of a curse and having to be saved, or even one of them having WALLS! and freaking out as they start a relationship, it's got to be one of the dullest relationships on this show. At least Regina and Robin had the drama of his long-lost wife showing up. Dorothy and Red had more buildup, and they were in one episode (they probably had as much interaction in that one episode as Henry and Murderella have had all season so far).

[Camera One]

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So, yeah, the evil stepsister is just an evil stepsister. 

Based on interviews, it seems like to A&E, it can still go either way. 

In the flashbacks, she was friends with Ella when she was young and even liked Cecelia (the Writers had a discussion on Twitter and concluded that this was the actual spelling of the name, which is one I've never encountered before). 

Anyway, at her birthday, Drizella didn't seem to care about getting her mother's approval.  But then she somehow did a 180, and became her mother's lackey and is apparently desperate for her approval and it seems to be implied that her entire scheme with the Curse was to get her mother to acknowledge her.  When a character is all over the place like that, it's really hard to connect with them in any way, despite the awesome actress.  They ruined one of the few good characters they had in record time.  

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I would say they skipped the interesting part with Henry and Ella, but I'm not sure there's been any such thing. There's been absolutely no conflict, no obstacles.

It's interesting how in the pilot, they really humanized Snow and Charming by showing how they were dealing with the stress of the impending Curse.  In "The Eighth Witch", the lead-up to the Curse was mostly focused on Regina.  Henry was the damsel in distress and Cinderella was a bystander.  And those two are supposed to be the headliner couple of this season.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

In "The Eighth Witch", the lead-up to the Curse was mostly focused on Regina. 

Is this a surprise to anyone?

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I just feel like there were seeds of some good ideas here, but they squandered each and every one so far. 

And this is news, how, exactly?  TSTW!

[Camera One]

I don't think any of this is breaking news to any of us who watch the show.  It's just friendly discussion and observations.

The first half of this season didn't feature Regina too much.  In fact, it was unclear what her arc even was.  Zelena gives her someone else to interact other than boring Henry.  I'm curious when and why they decided to bring back Zelena and why they didn't include her in Season 7 from the get-go.  Zelena said something about how she's "both" the Cursed personality and her original personality. Does Regina/Roni feel the same?  

[KingOfHearts]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The first half of this season didn't feature Regina too much.  In fact, it was unclear what her arc even was.  Zelena gives her someone else to interact other than boring Henry.  I'm curious when and why they decided to bring back Zelena and why they didn't include her in Season 7 from the get-go.  Zelena said something about how she's "both" the Cursed personality and her original personality. Does Regina/Roni feel the same?  

Zelena's return was forced and occurred way too late. She doesn't really fit into the narrative much at all. She's magicless and has no connection to what's going on other than Regina, whom she's estranged from periodically. The only other route her character development could have gone was integrating her into the Storybrooke community. Yet, in S7, she's still isolated with Robyn in a farmhouse, and apparently has moved from Storybrooke for unspecified reasons. (Even though her decision to stay was a big moment for her in S6.) Her entrance in 7x10 felt like a distraction from the real action going on. It was the writers effectively saying, "We don't think our mid-season climax is good enough, so let's desperately grab the audience's excitement with Zelena". She really belonged somewhere in the middle of 7A, perhaps during the two-hour event, reintroduced in a subplot. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking the other day about S1 and how Emma talks about how she wanted to be a hero for Henry by winning the sheriff election and doing the right thing. It was such a nice normal way for someone to go about being a hero in the real world. No magic or sword fights or fairy tale nonsense. That was the kind of story that grounded this show even while the fantastical stuff was happening in the fairybacks. It's a shame that the show decided to have Henry insert himself and his Storybrooke entourage into someone else's story on some self important quest to be written into a book and be a hero rather than understanding the true meaning of heroism. Why not have him get involved while doing something good in this world and stumbling into helping someone from the Disenchanted Forest? A better S7 concept for a reboot would be for Henry to play the S1 Henry role as an adult after discovering another cursed town and trying to help those people believe. 

[Mabinogia]

I can understand Henry wanting to get out of Storybrooke, since he was literally trapped there for most of his life. But, yes, I think his going around trying to be a Hero is kind of moronic. Didn't he see what being a Hero did to Emma? Sure, she ended up with Hook, and had her son back, but the woman went through hell (kind of literally) because she was supposed to be the big Hero when all she wanted was to be a normal hero to her son. 

I think I'd rather have seen a Henry who is running as far away from magic as he can, only to be caught up in it once again. Maybe some replay on "you can't escape who you are/your destiny". He could be a writer. He writes his fairy tales, runs into a little girl, NOT his daughter, who says she thinks her town is cursed, like the one in the book! He says he can't help but she persists. Maybe she shows him a picture that has Regina or Hook or Rumple (since the show seemed desperate to keep them on they would have to be there somehow) and that changes Henry's mind. He realizes he must go help. Once again they don't know who they are and he must help this little girl get them to see the truth. Or this new realm of forgetfulness could be Ana's coma dream if they want the Rapunzel/Tremaine stuff. If Ana wakes, they will all go back to where they belong and remember who they are. But Ivy, her sister, doesn't want her to wake. There could be ambivalence about whether Ivy knows the consequences of keeping Ana asleep. It could put her back to morally grey. Gothel, of course, would know the truth and would be trying to manipulate them all to keep this realm alive because if she goes back to the real world she goes back to being locked in the tower. At least here she is free. 

Well, that went off on a tangent. 

[jhlipton]

59 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

IWell, that went off on a tangent. 

That was a mighty fine tangent.  All the other tangents look at it and think, "My circle doesn't make me look like that!"

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I was thinking the other day about S1 and how Emma talks about how she wanted to be a hero for Henry by winning the sheriff election and doing the right thing. It was such a nice normal way for someone to go about being a hero in the real world. No magic or sword fights or fairy tale nonsense. That was the kind of story that grounded this show even while the fantastical stuff was happening in the fairybacks. It's a shame that the show decided to have Henry insert himself and his Storybrooke entourage into someone else's story on some self important quest to be written into a book and be a hero rather than understanding the true meaning of heroism. Why not have him get involved while doing something good in this world and stumbling into helping someone from the Disenchanted Forest? A better S7 concept for a reboot would be for Henry to play the S1 Henry role as an adult after discovering another cursed town and trying to help those people believe. 

I love that scene with Emma and Mary Margaret. Emma wanting to be a Hero for her son. It was a really good scene.

[Mabinogia]

2 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I love that scene with Emma and Mary Margaret. Emma wanting to be a Hero for her son. It was a really good scene.

That was back when this show had heart. It was a great scene about a mom wanting to be a good person for her son, not about saving the world, or being a legend, just being a good mom. I always preferred the smaller, character moments over the big dramatic fairytale stuff. I liked that it was a family/character show that took place in this magical place. Now it's more about the magic and less about the characters who are pretty much interchangeable at this point, since the characters are constantly changing to fit the storyline. 

[Shanna Marie]

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

Quote

So, yeah, the evil stepsister is just an evil stepsister. 

Based on interviews, it seems like to A&E, it can still go either way. 

Oh, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's part of the gang of heroes after joining them against Gothel, and it will be entirely forgotten that she poisoned Henry. Fortunately, based on the ratings, it doesn't look like we'll have time for her to become BFFs with all her former victims even though she only changed sides because they had a common enemy and not because she realized or admitted that she was in the wrong.

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I can understand Henry wanting to get out of Storybrooke, since he was literally trapped there for most of his life. But, yes, I think his going around trying to be a Hero is kind of moronic. Didn't he see what being a Hero did to Emma? Sure, she ended up with Hook, and had her son back, but the woman went through hell (kind of literally) because she was supposed to be the big Hero when all she wanted was to be a normal hero to her son. 

I just wish they'd learn that wanting to be a hero is different from wanting to do the right thing. The way Henry talked, what he wants is fame and glory, and that's hard to sympathize with.

I think that echoing season one was a really bad decision. It just invites comparisons, and unless they did something really clever with it, it's going to fall flat. They'd have been better off going to an entirely different format rather than repeating the same old thing with different characters, and with less meat to it. The different characters needed to be obviously different, not in the same pattern. I know they wanted season 6 to end by bookending season one, but Lucy was a big mistake. She has no reason to think that there's a curse or that Henry can do anything about it. It's not like Henry growing up, realizing that no one is changing around him. Did we learn how Henry decided his birth mother was the Savior? I suppose it could have been something that happened in parallel -- he wanted out of the cursed town, looked up his birth mother, and learned her name was Emma and she was found as an infant nearly 28 years ago by the side of the road in Maine, and he realized she was the Savior. Lucy had zero evidence, and she hasn't picked up on the evidence that was there (I still can't believe that she hasn't suspected that Rogers is Captain Hook, even if there are no illustrations of him in the book).

They might have done better with a "Have Gun, Will Travel" type format, with Author Henry traveling the realms and getting involved in various stories. Whook and Regina could have joined him along the way. Maybe do a few episodes with teen Henry, then show the passage of time with an actor in his early-mid 20s playing adult Henry, and no daughter. I guess if they had to have a curse because they had to have something set in the present to contrast with the fairybacks and if they had to have the daughter because they wanted to bookend the beginning of season one, they could have had it play out in a different way. Maybe do what we were speculating about and have multiple mother possibilities in the present, and Henry traveling realms in the past, so we don't know which fairy tale character is the mom. Have it be something other than the usual dark curse -- like an Author AU, as I speculated, something Henry did either under duress or to help them escape to a place where the villain wasn't a threat. Anything other than just swapping out characters from season one without any more development than that.

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I just wish they'd learn that wanting to be a hero is different from wanting to do the right thing. The way Henry talked, what he wants is fame and glory, and that's hard to sympathize with.

True. He talks about it more like he just wants his name in a book than that he wants to save people. He doesn't want to be forgotten by history. He could care less who he saves, just so long as someone knows it is him doing the saving. 

 

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

if they had to have the daughter because they wanted to bookend the beginning of season one, they could have had it play out in a different way.

They could have really flipped the script and had Henry adopt a child like Regina adopted him. It would still bookend the beginning of season one, but in a fairly unexpected way. (I'm not saying make him the type of parent Regina was, but just have him adopt rather than be the birth father, which would also have helped with some of the timeline issues, since he wouldn't have to be an particular age to have an adopted daughter of a certain age. And her mom could be a fairytale character, and Henry could fall in love with her and they would become a family without the blood relationship needing to be there. 

So many interesting things they could have done and Hyperion Heights is what they chose to do? Yikes!

[Camera One]

13 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

A better S7 concept for a reboot would be for Henry to play the S1 Henry role as an adult after discovering another cursed town and trying to help those people believe. 

 

21 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They might have done better with a "Have Gun, Will Travel" type format, with Author Henry traveling the realms and getting involved in various stories. Whook and Regina could have joined him along the way. Maybe do a few episodes with teen Henry, then show the passage of time with an actor in his early-mid 20s playing adult Henry, and no daughter. I guess if they had to have a curse because they had to have something set in the present to contrast with the fairybacks and if they had to have the daughter because they wanted to bookend the beginning of season one, they could have had it play out in a different way. Maybe do what we were speculating about and have multiple mother possibilities in the present, and Henry traveling realms in the past, so we don't know which fairy tale character is the mom. Have it be something other than the usual dark curse -- like an Author AU, as I speculated, something Henry did either under duress or to help them escape to a place where the villain wasn't a threat. Anything other than just swapping out characters from season one without any more development than that.

There are so many good ideas in this thread. 

One of the major difficulties in coming up with a better concept for this season are the constraints that there has to be a flashback portion and a present-day portion in the "real world".  Still, it would be do-able if they went with a scenario like the one KAOS Agent suggested above.  Whereby Adult Henry would find out about and drive into Hyperion Heights, but he has no idea who's who.  But we as the audience see who's who in the fairytale flashbacks, and we see Henry uncover clues and make intelligent deductions (I know, a tall order for these writers) in the present-day.  The villain would under-estimate Henry, who can slowly "wake" these people up and mount a resistance.  They could even do a villain fake-out, with Henry initially thinking it's Victoria/Lady Tremaine and then realizing it's Ivy or Mother Gothel.   Henry and the other returning characters didn't all necessarily have to be caught up in the Curse themselves (maybe they could just keep Hook with his Cursed memories since he's actually Whook).

Finding a way to incorporate Regina, Hook and Rumple in an organic way is another slight difficulty.  That one really would be easier in Shanna Marie's scenario of Henry going on adventures and Regina and Whook coming along, and Rumple doing whatever in the background.  

A&E were clearly not interested in telling an elaborate alternate Cinderella story from a different perspective, as they did for Snow White in Season 1, another reason why this parallel structure just did not work.  The Cinderella characters are really in-name-only, even more than usual.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

On 12/24/2017 at 4:30 PM, Camera One said:

A&E were clearly not interested in telling an elaborate alternate Cinderella story from a different perspective, as they did for Snow White in Season 1, another reason why this parallel structure just did not work.  The Cinderella characters are really in-name-only, even more than usual.

Rapunzel is in-name-only, too. It's not about the fact she was trapped in a tower, or had long hair. The drama surrounds her family and step-family, the members of which don't exist in the source material at all. Gothel is a gardening witch who locks people in her tower, but her motivations are completely different. (Whatever they may be...) The twisted adopted mother dynamic is not there. A key element of the Rapunzel story is the healing rapunzel flower, and that's not here either. At least in Snow White, the feud between Snow and the Evil Queen was a focus in both the source and OUAT. 

On a different subject - the more I think about it, the more Regina's inclusion in S7 feels forced. She spent five seasons getting cozy with the Charmings and "proving" she could be a mayor/queen. While her wanting to be with Henry makes sense, he's not a kid/teenager any more. It's not like Regina lost a bunch of time with him from her perspective. Up until he left home, she was with him every step of the way. For such a long time, this show has built up that she's a protagonist and needs to be in charge. (Even if many of us disagree.) Now, all of a sudden, she's playing a supporting role that has little to do with her character's journey. 

[KAOS Agent]

All three of the returning leads have little to do. I know the supporting roles are meant to allow for them to bridge into a new story that could continue on if/when they left, but they had to know this was highly likely to be the last season of Once. Regina is pointless and has nothing going on, I have no idea what's up with Rumpel and Hook's piece is really an afterthought that could easily be removed and not affect the overall story at all.  Their stories have all played out. 

I suspect that the back half of the season will focus more on Regina, but she's not an interesting character without her friends/nemeses. There is little to drive her story forward at this point because she's this perfect force for good and has no conflict in her life that could provide character growth.  An all wise warrior goddess has little story to tell.  Henry's life hanging in the balance with this curse isn't suspenseful because it's too easily resolved by having him drink from the Flagon with the Dragon that the Court Jester will show up with at the last minute. 

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Flagon with the Dragon that the Court Jester will show up with at the last minute. 

Isn't it the chalice in the palace that has the brew that is true? Haha, I would love a court jester to come along and poison them all actually.