A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[RolloTomasi]

31 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

No, it doesn't. I would have had no interest in watching Hook get ruined by becoming besties with Rumple like Emma and especially Snow were with Regina.

Well, when I say “works better” I mean “involves two characters with five seasons worth of complicated history” rather than “let’s pretend this story carries the same weight when one of the characters isn’t even the same character.” Opinions on the story itself aside, narratively it makes more sense with Original Hook. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Inquirer said:

No, it doesn't. I would have had no interest in watching Hook get ruined by becoming besties with Rumple like Emma and especially Snow were with Regina.

I could not have stomached Hook and Rumple becoming BFFs. In way, literally the only way for them to work their issues out was with a different version of their enemy. It's like all those SQ fans who love WHook becasue he's not the Hook with Emma. It's hard to get rid of that kind of baggage. It's given some emotional distance and perspective to finally see things in a different light. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Rumsy4

[CCTC]

47 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But really, the climax was very low quality.  Overall, the planning and plotting was still very weak, whereby the "big" bad Mother Gothel was MIA in the present for multiple episodes and even in her own final episode. 

Yes - 7B was better than 7A and much of season 6, but it is all relative.  Objectively it was not great.  I am trying to think of the last time they had a good conclusion and climax.  As early as the Season 4A Frozen arc they were already rushing through the climax so they could start the next story (I actually thought it was a decent arc until all the build-up ended up going no where and was treated as literally a laughing matter).  4B and 5A had interesting cliffhangers (Emma being the dark-one, going to Hell), but the episodes themselves did not resolve the previous arc in an interesting or compelling way.    There finales are often pretty low-action with people waiting for the bad to happen until the last three minutes.

[Inquirer]

40 minutes ago, RolloTomasi said:

Opinions on the story itself aside, narratively it makes more sense with Original Hook. 

Oh, it makes perfect narrative sense for this show. But that doesn't make it any less unpleasant, so I'm glad we got the switch to Wish Hook.

Quote

In way, literally the only way for them to work their issues out was with a different version of their enemy. It's like all those SQ fans who love WHook becasue he's not the Hook with Emma. It's hard to get rid of that kind of baggage. It's gives some emotional distance and perspective to finally see things in a different light. 

Agreed - I actually kind of think it works better in that light: that a Rumple and a Hook can cross realities and form a friendship even though they still detest the version from their respective realities. 

[Camera One]

Though their ultimate reason for why Whook and Rumple became "friends" was pretty ridiculous, with Whook going out of his way to thank Rumple for NOT harming his daughter.  And Alice saying she needed to stick by Rumple after everything she did for her.  I mean, it's not a surprise given this show, but it's like a bad joke.  Excuse me while I send some flowers to the guy who tied me up but decided not to kidnap me after all.  

The stuff that "Weaver" and "Rogers" went through was pretty much so generic they could have been Sebastian the Crab and Pocahonta's raccoon.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

their ultimate reason for why Whook and Rumple became "friends" was pretty ridiculous, with Whook going out of his way to thank Rumple for NOT harming his daughter. 

Oh, absolutely! Typical of this Show, as you say. That's why it would have been even more infuriating if this had been Hook Prime and Rumple. 

Rumple as Weaver has tried to watch out for Rogers, and he does seem to have a fondness for Tilly/Alice, which we have never seen with Rumple for anyone other than his family. So, I'm happy to take it for what it is at the surface level.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Minor promo talk below.

I was thinking about Wish Henry and his vengeance.  Regina had so many victims where she was clearly in the wrong.  They have chosen a case which is more grey, where Wish Henry is now doing as much wrong by threatening Regina.  There's a scene in the promo where Wish Henry has Regina up against a tree and she says if this is the way she has to go, it's worth it, and the clip left me cold.   She said to him that there are many people who loved him.  They loved the other version of him.  That's kind of different.  Their "twist" last week with Wish Henry as the friendzoned guy and his homicidal bloodthirst for Regina don't mesh for me.  

Edited May 18, 2018 by Camera One

[Mitch]

I was okay with the promo and the storyline...(well..lets' see how it plays out..) for once there is an interesting grey problem...WHenry has every right to want revenge and Regina actually thought the WCharmings werent real (though how they explain HOW WHenry is real when EmmaPrime didnt give birth to him...the whole wish world sucks...). The promo actually made me interested in the finale.

I think its actually kind of .."poetic," that the show ends  to ave someone that for all intents is the person Regina "loves the most" (also Henry) be the one who hates her and wants to kill her...(there is no doubt that Regina will change his mind and he will let "love into his heart" yadayada...but I don't mind that, this is not a cable show it needs to end happy..) and if they use this as a chance for Regina to finally say "I am sorry" I am good with it.

Now if only WHenry was the one to cast the curse to get revenge on Regina by taking away HenryPrime that would have been interesting.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Mitch

[KingOfHearts]

46 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 She said to him that there are many people who loved him.  They loved the other version of him.  That's kind of different. 

It's pretty sad considering his mother abandoned him. For all intents and purposes, Emma was his mom, even in the Wish Realm. Even if he was "fake", it's odd that it didn't bother anybody that he was left alone. Nobody cared about the Wish Realm until WHook showed up.

Edited May 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

The whole realm is stupid, as they changed their minds on it during the course of the episode...or kind of, when Emma said maybe something from Real Robin was there.  They should have just gone with an Earth-2 scenario where it was all real and the Emma from that world was zapped to Storybrooke when EmmPrime is zapped there. That would have been a good string of episodes as Regina and Hook go to get Emma and both are confronted with their clones who took a darker path. I know we were cloned out of the EQ by then but they should have not done the split and the final villains would have been WishRumple and WishQueen (instead of the dumb Black Fairy) who follow them to SB like they are doing now.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Mitch said:

the Emma from that world was zapped to Storybrooke when EmmPrime is zapped there. 

That would have been really interesting, to see how Emma would be if the Curse hadn't happened.  Instead, she was the parody of a princess.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

That would have been really interesting, to see how Emma would be if the Curse hadn't happened.  Instead, she was the parody of a princess.

It would've fixed some plot holes. If the realm had already existed, what filled Emma's role? If they only had memories of her, what did they do during that whole time she was supposedly alive? Making it a perfect parallel universe that had always existed would've made genies less overpowered and we wouldn't have this stupid "real vs. fake" crap. I'd be on board with OUAT getting their own "Mirror Universe" al a Star Trek.

I don't mind Princess Emma being a stereotypical Disney Princess, but even Disney Princesses (at least the more modern ones) had more of a backbone than her. Aurora didn't freaking grovel at Maleficent's feet. Yes, she was pretty useless, but she had no real power in that situation. She didn't sacrifice her dignity or her values out of fear. Running away because you can't do anything and you're the immediate heir to the throne is much more honorable than putting yourself at risk by begging. A real Disney princess would've sought help and figured out another way to combat their problems. It should be noted that in the case of Cinderella, Aurora, and Snow White (all the "weaker" princesses), they were not raised as royalty. They didn't have any training in diplomacy or swordsmanship. Elsa and Anna, on the other hand, were perfectly capable of defending themselves and their kingdom.

I think they could've done the whole "singing in the woods" and not being street-smart without making her a cowering idiot.

Edited May 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was thinking about Rumbelle's "happy ever after".  If I were actually invested in the coupling, I would have hated that Belle died.  Imagine if there had been an episode where Emma and Hook went to another realm where time moved differently and she died, and what we could look forward to in the finale was Hook dying to join her.  

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would've fixed some plot holes. If the realm had already existed, what filled Emma's role? If they only had memories of her, what did they do during that whole time she was supposedly alive? Making it a perfect parallel universe that had always existed would've made genies less overpowered and we wouldn't have this stupid "real vs. fake" crap. I'd be on board with OUAT getting their own "Mirror Universe" al a Star Trek.

I had expected this show's final season to be a copy of "Lost"'s final season in terms of the flashes.  Season 7 could have been more fun if every episode's flashback was basically a "what if" in the mirror universe that someone (for example, Blue) created when she first learned about the impending Curse.  

[KingOfHearts]

17 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I had expected this show's final season to be a copy of "Lost"'s final season in terms of the flashes.  Season 7 could have been more fun if every episode's flashback was basically a "what if" in the mirror universe that someone (for example, Blue) created when she first learned about the impending Curse.  

I always wanted the final season to be a curse with false memories to bookend the series. I got my wish, but it wasn't what I wanted at all. I would've preferred a continuation of S1, where everyone believed they were their original cursed selves and remembered the events of that season. Maybe some time could've passed and Emma and Regina are in a reluctant shared custody agreement. Maybe David and Mary Margaret could've gotten back together. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

i got my wish, but it wasn't what I wanted at all.

With "Once Upon a Time", every wish comes with a price, both in-show and as a viewer (even moreso as the viewer).

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

With "Once Upon a Time", every wish comes with a price, both in-show and as a viewer (even moreso as the viewer).

I never realized that "all magic comes with a price" meant the show's magic. We've all learned that doing a huge Disney crossover with compelling characters comes with a steep price. A&E make horrible genies.

Edited May 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And tonight, we will find out what "I WISH all our favorites came back!" will wrought.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I was watching the first scene from Season 7 Episode 1.

Quote

REGINA: Henry, are you sure about this? I was hoping after high school, you'd think about college. 

This line made it sound like Regina and Henry had never talked about going to college, but we saw an entire flashback about this.

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, the whole ending seemed like something I would say as an ending, sarcastically. “Yeah, the way this shows going, it’s gonna end with the whole freaking universe bowing to Regina, as the Charmings crown her queen of everything or some crap”. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

PTV Boards: "Regina is the worst character on the show."

Jacinda: "Hold my beer."

[Rumsy4]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, the whole ending seemed like something I would say as an ending, sarcastically. “Yeah, the way this shows going, it’s gonna end with the whole freaking universe bowing to Regina, as the Charmings crown her queen of everything or some crap”. 

I’m sure we’ve made this exact joke at some point or the other.

[KingOfHearts]

19 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I’m sure we’ve made this exact joke at some point or the other.

In case you had any doubts that OUAT was written to be fanfiction, in comes the ultimate Mary Sue.

[Camera One]

Before the finale, I imagined a full out everyone in the kingdom bowing down on their knees fully prostrating on the ground à la the scene from "Mulan".  Always think the worst case scenario with this show and you will (usually) just feel relieved.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Before the finale, I imagined a full out everyone in the kingdom bowing down on their knees fully prostrating on the ground à la the scene from "Mulan".  Always think the worst case scenario with this show and you will (usually) just feel relieved.

 

Just before Snow places the crown on Regina's head:

Snow: "Wait a second... THIS is the Bad Place!"

Wish Rumple, peering out from a corner: "Oh, farts. She figured it out."

(My headcanon is that they're all trapped in one of the "Unhappy Ending" books like Wish Blue. Regina's coronation is in most of them.)

Edited May 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

In case you had any doubts that OUAT was written to be fanfiction, in comes the ultimate Mary Sue.

It is, the ending felt like a last minute wish fulfilment fan fiction that Adam and Eddy tacked on when they knew ABC was ending their show.

[october]

I think that's exactly what it was.

[Kktjones]

I feel like that ending was a bone for all the Evil Regals since they didn't give Regina the big, fancy wedding. They had to do something epic to appease her fans, so they picked this nonsense.

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

They had to do something epic to appease her fans...

...or appease Lana. It seems A&E may have have assured Lana that Regina would get a romantic Happy Ending this season (she said she had insisted on it in interviews). Since they killed off yet another love interest, most likely due to the cancellation, they decided to make Regina Queen of Everything. Lana must have blackmail material on them. lol.

[KingOfHearts]

6 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I feel like that ending was a bone for all the Evil Regals since they didn't give Regina the big, fancy wedding. They had to do something epic to appease her fans, so they picked this nonsense.

Didn't most Evil Regals check out by the end of S6? I know some are still there, but I'd think most of them are bitter that Regina didn't end up with Robin or Emma.

The finale was another example of Regina doing next to nothing for most of the arc, then all of a sudden being super important. Examples include her light magic in 3B, her dark Savior blood in the S4 finale, her whole Evil Queen angst in the S5 finale. 

It just occurred to me that Regina will now never apologize to the Charmings.

[Free]

30 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Didn't most Evil Regals check out by the end of S6? I know some are still there, but I'd think most of them are bitter that Regina didn't end up with Robin or Emma.

The finale was another example of Regina doing next to nothing for most of the arc, then all of a sudden being super important. Examples include her light magic in 3B, her dark Savior blood in the S4 finale, her whole Evil Queen angst in the S5 finale. 

It just occurred to me that Regina will now never apologize to the Charmings.

There was never going to be an apology, ever, the writing was on the wall ever since they got denigrated as cheerleaders for Regina without a backbone of their own.

As for the Evil Regals, I think a lot of them complained about the Roni stuff this season, so, they ended up pissing everyone off.

[Camera One]

Unanswered questions from Season 7 (I left out the timeline questions).  I probably missed another 10 or more.

- Why did Gothel need Drizella to enact the Dark Curse?  Why didn't she just do it herself?

- Why did Gothel need to spend years (thousands) looking for The Guardian?  What did she even need The Guardian for?

- Why did Gothel have to be so selective in choosing her Coven?  

- How did Gothel "wake" her Coven with that policeman?

- What was Gothel going to do after she had wiped out humanity... again?

- Why did Gothel want Rumple's Dagger?

- Did Gothel know who the Candy Killer was?  Why didn't she stop him?

- When in the past did Dr. Facilier meet Regina?

- When did he decide he wanted Rumple's dagger?

- When did he wake? 

- Where was that farm Zelena and Robyn was living in?  Why did they move there?

- When did Lucy first begin realizing Henry Mills/her favorite author was her father?

- How long were they all cursed in Hyperion Heights?

[Camera One]

Was it confirmed that Season 7 would have been Robert Carlyle's final season?  I was thinking about their original ending for Season 7, if they had been renewed for Season 8.

I think Mother Gothel might have been a replacement for Rumple.  If she had become the Dark One, she would have been creepy in gold glitter.  They could have kept her "complex" because she would develop latent feelings of motherhood and eventually want to become closer to Alice. 

Were they actually playing with the idea of Dr. Facilier becoming The Dark One, or was that just a red herring?  If there was a Season 8, maybe he would have stayed on as a "grey" love interest for Roni.  

With Rumple gone, they could afford to bring back Zelena full-time.  A potentially interesting arc could be Zelena's fiancé becoming suspicious and then finding out they had magic.  Though the actor they cast didn't stand out enough to become a recurring character.  

It seemed like A&E hadn't thought far enough ahead to even plan out Season 7's cliffhanger.  When they were asked what Season 8 would entail, Eddy said they might have gone back to Storybrooke.  How would that have worked?  

Edited May 26, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I've been watching some clips from Season 7 and the difference between Young Alice and Crazy Adult Alice is rather jarring.  I was rewatching the scene where Alice talks to Jacinda in Wonderland about how her mother got killed by the Jabberwocky and Alice was the only survivor when she killed it.  I can't see her slaying the Jabberwocky from the Wonderland spinoff.  So was this a different Disenchanted Wonderland?  

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

So was this a different Disenchanted Wonderland?  

I think Adam said it was. On twitter, of course. How many Wonderlands are in Maine now? 

[Free]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Was it confirmed that Season 7 would have been Robert Carlyle's final season?

I'm not sure if it was official, but it was expected hence why it was pretty obvious that Rumple's character would end up sacrificing himself in the end regardless of whether the series would continue or not.

[Inquirer]

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Was it confirmed that Season 7 would have been Robert Carlyle's final season?  I was thinking about their original ending for Season 7, if they had been renewed for Season 8.

I think Mother Gothel might have been a replacement for Rumple.  If she had become the Dark One, she would have been creepy in gold glitter.  They could have kept her "complex" because she would develop latent feelings of motherhood and eventually want to become closer to Alice. 

Were they actually playing with the idea of Dr. Facilier becoming The Dark One, or was that just a red herring?  If there was a Season 8, maybe he would have stayed on as a "grey" love interest for Roni.  

 

No way, Gothel was just the seasonal Big Bad and was clearly always going to be dispatched.  Literally EVERY sign pointed to FACILIER as the one who would be the replacement for Rumple and stay on as a regular should another season get picked up.  I think that Rumple would succeed in giving the Darkness to the Guardian and go off to retire, waiting to die naturally, while Facilier somehow took the Darkness from the Guardian and became the new Dark One. That way, we have a replacement for Rumple, but Rumple is still alive somewhere off-screen so that they could bring Robert Carlyle back for the series finale whenever it came, where they would finally kill Rumple off.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Inquirer

[Camera One]

I wonder what the cover of the Season 7 DVD will look like?  I guess they'll use the "iconic" picture of Jacinda on the motorcycle?  

[daxx]

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

I wonder what the cover of the Season 7 DVD will look like?  I guess they'll use the "iconic" picture of Jacinda on the motorcycle?  

Probably. Unless Regina gets yet another Apple shot.

[KingOfHearts]

The island Jacinda wanted to live on with Lucy was never brought up again. We never saw it, and nothing in her character arc ever emulated it.

[Camera One]

56 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Oh gosh. The Guardian plot was COMPLETELY pointless. Rumple had no plan. He was as in the dark as everybody else.

In hindsight, it made no sense.  Rumple already realized in flashback that finding The Guardian was NOT the answer.  He decided he couldn't put all his Darkness into an innocent girl.  He would never get to Belle that way.

Yet in the present-day, he's pursuing Anastasia as The Guardian.  So what was different this time?  

And then Anastasia left, and Rumple said something about finding another one.  

24 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The island Jacinda wanted to live on with Lucy was never brought up again. We never saw it, and nothing in her character arc ever emulated it.

Victoria died, Ivy left, and it basically didn't change Jacinda's situation at all.  

What type of storytelling is it where stuff happens and it changes nothing?

This season wasn't horrible, but it was still an epic fail in plotting, characterization, worldbuilding, planning and overall showrunning.  So many things didn't make sense in hindsight, starting with what the hell Gothel was thinking when she came up with her idiotic plan over "thousands of years".  None of it had to happen this way.  It was like a really pathetic messy attempt to re-create Rumple's long range plan from Season 1.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I was thinking about Season 7 and had a few questions.

I guess Drizella didn't know that Henry would only die if he TLK Regina, not Jacinda or Lucy.  But remind me why she needed the Curse to stay unbroken again?  How long did she want to drag out the "punishment" of her mother?  

If she were really twisted and knew anything about what she was actually doing (she clearly had no idea who would break the Curse and how), she would have pushed Henry to pursue Roni romantically and he would die once they kissed.  

When Drizella went to Wonderland, why did she bother to pretend to have a cure for Alice's poisoned heart with Whook?  

Edited June 8, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

On 6/7/2018 at 1:33 AM, KingOfHearts said:

The island Jacinda wanted to live on with Lucy was never brought up again. We never saw it, and nothing in her character arc ever emulated it.

That would have been such a good way to bring Gilligan and company in for a story arc.

[KingOfHearts]

It's rather surprising Roni had zero reaction to finding out she was the Evil Queen, slaughterer of villagers and destroyer of worlds. You'd think it'd be interesting to explore that with someone like Regina, who has serious identity issues. ("Can we drop the E word already?") Of course Weaver didn't care much that he was Rumplestiltskin, since he was pretty shady already. 

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's rather surprising Roni had zero reaction to finding out she was the Evil Queen, slaughterer of villagers and destroyer of worlds. You'd think it'd be interesting to explore that with someone like Regina, who has serious identity issues.

I remember there being a discussion somewhere along the way about how they couldn't really do an honest redemption story in which Regina truly faced all her past crimes because anyone who was or became a good person who had any kind of conscience and who wasn't a total sociopath would just snap when thinking about all she'd done, from the very personal crime of murdering her own father to the horror of mass murder. Thinking about the hearts she'd crushed would destroy her. Regina seemed to have compartmentalized it all -- I was a different person then -- and rationalized it as justified (which to me means she wasn't truly redeemed even if she changed her behavior), but how would having the We Are Both of Roni affect that? Roni was this warm, motherly person whose identity had lived her life in our world. Suddenly remembering murdering people would have come as a shock.

[KingOfHearts]

I just read that Jacinda's last name was "Vidrio". When did we ever see or hear her last name? It's funny that it's the Spanish word for "glass".

Edited July 16, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

On 7/9/2018 at 8:13 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Roni was this warm, motherly person whose identity had lived her life in our world. Suddenly remembering murdering people would have come as a shock.

Yea, they didn't do anything with that at all, and also why I think it would be interesting that Driz's punishment of Regina was for Roni to be in relationship with oneof her victims, who, in the "Original Recipe EF" wanted to kill her. Should I wake him up or let him believe Im a nice person?  I also think it would be cool if the "woke" person hated their real identity..instead of the other way around. "We are both" means they retain the memories and feelings of the curse persona so I could see Roni being totally disgusted with Regina/the Evil Queen, and disavow all of it. S7 could have repaired a lot of the weakness of Regina's previous "redemption" but they were more interested in stupid plots that went no where.

[Rumsy4]

They should have put Roni in a relationship with Weaver. :-p Or Henry. Don't beat me!

[CCTC]

I saw a behind the scenes pic of Drusillia and Anastasia.   For a second I had to remember who Anastasia was and what role or significance she had to the season.  There were certainly a lot of false starts and change in focus, so much of what occurred earlier in the season (or even fairly late in the season) really did matter to how the season 7 arc wrapped up and were not needed for the big bad's ultimate plan.

5 hours ago, Mitch said:

I also think it would be cool if the "woke" person hated their real identity..instead of the other way around. "We are both" means they retain the memories and feelings of the curse persona so I could see Roni being totally disgusted with Regina/the Evil Queen, and disavow all of it. S7 could have repaired a lot of the weakness of Regina's previous "redemption" but they were more interested in stupid plots that went no where.

That could have been really interesting, 

[KingOfHearts]

23 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I also think it would be cool if the "woke" person hated their real identity..instead of the other way around.

The show touched on this in 2B with Red and Whale, but it was never brought up again.

[Camera One]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:36 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I just read that Jacinda's last name was "Vidrio". When did we ever see or hear her last name? 

I don't remember ever seeing her last name.  The Writers are clever... I give them that.  Jacinda was a fun variation of Cinders.