A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Rumsy4]

I have a feeling the writers just came up with the concept of alternate realms and characters because they wanted to give Henry an iconic True Love like Snow White. Maybe they felt it would be more attractive to the audience (and attract tons of new viewers) if it was a recognizable fairy tale they could just slot Henry into. As they'd already "used up" Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel, in one form or the other, they just decided to redo one of the above instead of going for a lesser-known fairy tale, or create an original character.  

[Camera One]

Eddy also said Alice in Wonderland is one of his favorites, so that's why they included that as well.  They looked at the Disney playbook and practically the only magical villains left were Mother Gothel and Dr. Facilier, so we got them.  Plus they wrote with the possibility that they'd get a Season 8, when they would need to dip back in the same pot which would require more repeat characters.

[Rumsy4]

They've been running this show on literary name-dropping and Disney-nostalgia since forever, but it just has been getting progressively more and more disconnected since Season 3B. For example, that's when we got a Robin Hood and Wicked Witch who were nothing like their literary counterparts except in name and some superficial characteristics like living in tents with Robin or the green skin with Zelena. It's just been getting worse since then. These OUAT charatcers are identity thieves who don't even bother to act like the person whose lives they "stole".

Edited April 15, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

50 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

They've been running this show on literary name-dropping and Disney-nostalgia since forever, but it just has been getting progressively more and more disconnected since Season 3B.  It's just been getting worse since then. These OUAT charatcers are identity thieves who don't even bother to act like the person whose lives they "stole".

Hello,

It's called creativity.

Yours truly,

A&E

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

so that Henry found himself trying to figure out who they were, only to realize that there are a lot of people doing heroic deeds, breaking curses, and falling in love without ending up in a book.

I would have loved that actually. Poor little Henry's head would have exploded. I don't think he could wrap it around the idea that some people just do the right thing without needing to be a 'hero' in a book. 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Plus they wrote with the possibility that they'd get a Season 8, when they would need to dip back in the same pot which would require more repeat characters.

Or they could have taken their time to actually develop characters and storylines instead of rushing through everything so that they drained the well completely dry. If they had taken their time like they did in season one they could have had years more stories to tell without having to create all these ridiculous second versions of everyone and everything. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Or they could have taken their time to actually develop characters and storylines instead of rushing through everything so that they drained the well completely dry. If they had taken their time like they did in season one they could have had years more stories to tell without having to create all these ridiculous second versions of everyone and everything. 

What's sad is that in the second half of S7, they've actually taken a little time to develop characters, and they're all going to be gone in just a few episodes. Tilly/Margot are getting not even half a season, yet Outlaw Queen, which was even less developed, got like two seasons and a half.

[Camera One]

Though knowing this show, that was all the development they would ever get, and this doesn't give them the chance to ruin them (no guarantee, though, A&E still have five hours to do it!).

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Though knowing this show, that was all the development they would ever get, and this doesn't give them the chance to ruin them (no guarantee, though, A&E still have five hours to do it!).

Don't underestimate the power of the hollow bunnies.

[Camera One]

Was Zelena's return meant to service Zelena as a character, or to introduce Robyn?   I suppose it's a combination of both, but I'm not sure if either objective was met.  Zelena hardly got anything to do.  Her tenuous relationship with Regina had already resolved itself in offscreenville. They brought her normal boyfriend on for a scene or two and then we were supposed to believe that Zelena, uh, I mean Kelly really missed her Cursed life.  Meanwhile, Robyn is still a cardboard cutout to me.  Her modern-day persona is very much preferable to the bratty flashback one, but I really don't feel like I know her as a person either.  Is there really time in the season for her to get an actual flashback to flesh her out?  Doubtful.  

Speaking the language of Season 7, I feel like all we're getting is the sugar on the beignet.

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I feel like all we're getting is the sugar on the beignet

But that's the essence that matters! We just need to get voodoo dolls of A&E, and make them rewrite the series finale for us.

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Meanwhile, Robyn is still a cardboard cutout to me.  Her modern-day persona is very much preferable to the bratty flashback one, but I really don't feel like I know her as a person either. 

I connect less with her modern persona because it so obviously seems like a "persona" to me. At least the bratty one of the flashbacks seemed her authentic self. In the present, she is dressed as a "person who goes hiking in Tibet" or wherever she was. And her interactions with Tilly were so minimal that it doesn't ring true for her to stay behind based on two conversations. Does she even have a job? How is she supporting herself? Is "Kelly" financing her? These are the kind of layers that should be present, even if they are not obviously stated. 

[ParadoxLost]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

Was Zelena's return meant to service Zelena as a character, or to introduce Robyn?   I suppose it's a combination of both, but I'm not sure if either objective was met.  Zelena hardly got anything to do.  Her tenuous relationship with Regina had already resolved itself in offscreenville. They brought her normal boyfriend on for a scene or two and then we were supposed to believe that Zelena, uh, I mean Kelly really missed her Cursed life.  Meanwhile, Robyn is still a cardboard cutout to me.  Her modern-day persona is very much preferable to the bratty flashback one, but I really don't feel like I know her as a person either.  Is there really time in the season for her to get an actual flashback to flesh her out?  Doubtful.  

I think Zelena was brought on to introduce Robyn.  I think Robyn and Nick were part of a retooling plan to fix that 7A had a bunch of characters that weren't working and trying to set up some set of characters who might click for a potential s8.  But before they really made it to air, the show got cancelled so they decided not to bother with that. So Zelena's time half heartedly introduced Robin, briefly introduced her fiancée, and mostly focused on spending time with Regina.

[RolloTomasi]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

mostly focused on spending time with Regina.

A&E’s personal motto. 

[KingOfHearts]

Question: Why has no one tried to wake up Tilly? All they'd have to do is get her to stop taking those pills Victoria gave her.

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Question: Why has no one tried to wake up Tilly? All they'd have to do is get her to stop taking those pills Victoria gave her.

I've been wondering the same, especially Rumple, since he knows exactly what's stopping her from waking up.

Maybe he's just really caring and doesn't want her to feel the pain of interacting with her father even though he doesn't remember.  

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Maybe he's just really caring and doesn't want her to feel the pain of interacting with her father even though he doesn't remember.  

At the same time, it really stretches my suspension of disbelief that while Drizella made sure to bring a memory potion with her, Rumple has nothing in his arsenal of puppets and pendants. He could whip up an elephant for Hook and Alice before the curse, but he's got no potions? They're really not hard to make. Waking up Rogers should be a no-brainer since his curiosity seems to be more of a hindrance and he's taking part in the investigation. Henry, Jacinda, Sabine, and Margot could all stay asleep and it wouldn't change much until the curse breaks. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

At the same time, it really stretches my suspension of disbelief that while Drizella made sure to bring a memory potion with her, Rumple has nothing in his arsenal of puppets and pendants. He could whip up an elephant for Hook and Alice before the curse, but he's got no potions? They're really not hard to make. 

Dr. Facilier also has access to Wakefulness potion.  It seems like a contrivance so we would still have half the characters living "real life".  The ones who are awake aren't even making a real effort to defeat Gothel.  Regina and Zelena spend most of their time running their bar and who the hell knows what Rumple does all day.  Certainly not detective work.

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

Dr. Facilier also has access to Wakefulness potion.  It seems like a contrivance so we would still have half the characters living "real life".  The ones who are awake aren't even making a real effort to defeat Gothel.  Regina and Zelena spend most of their time running their bar and who the hell knows what Rumple does all day.  Certainly not detective work.

Now Zelena is gone. Regina is just gathering moss and banging her enemy-with-benefits. Rumple's just shrugging whenever he's pushed back from reuniting with Belle. What exactly are the emotional stakes here? Henry and Jacinda have decided to be together it seems. Sabine's food truck is doing alright, other than Drew's half-assed espionage.  Facilier and Gothel want the Dagger, but what villain doesn't? Haven't people been going after it for years anyway? 

I've been waiting to believe since the beginning of the season that Rumple has had this master scheme, which is why he seems so passive. But at this point, I really don't think that's the case. At least, the writers had no plan initially for exactly what it was. By next episode, Rumple could go, "Oh yes, I've been rubbing my mitts together this whole time, working behind the scenes! Sure, there's no clues or reasoning for my actions. But now look! I'm a genius!" It's disappointing. He's a waste of a character, more than usual.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina is just gathering moss

This time, literally!

[KingOfHearts]

On 4/16/2018 at 1:53 AM, Camera One said:

Was Zelena's return meant to service Zelena as a character, or to introduce Robyn? 

I'd say neither. Zelena was only there because of slumping ratings. A&E realized they did a bad by not including her in the new season. The writers like having her there, but they don't want to do anything with her. They just want to see her face on screen because she props Regina up and chews the scenery.

[Rumsy4]

According to Lana, she convinced A&E to bring Mader back. Not sure if that's really the case or not, but Zelena's limited presence suggests the writers didn't have any serious plans for her. From the amount of influence Lana seems to have on A&E, I really think she has blackmail material on them. :-p

[Camera One]

It's seems like the writers didn't have serious plans for anybody they brought back.  I don't think Rumple has developed at all in Season 7.  The only development that happened occurred off-screen in "Beauty" when he decided he was ready to give up being the Dark One.  Ditto for Regina, who hasn't had any interaction which has added to character growth.  Dr. Facilier is her love interest, but he hasn't brought out anything new in Regina.  

One might even say that Zelena has grown more with her limited time in Season 7 than Rumple or Regina.  Zelena learned not to control her daughter too much, she realized she liked being a regular person and she seems ready to give up magic for Chad.  Of course, very little of this was developed fully, but at least the character has progressed a little this season, unlike R&R.

In the Spoiler thread, there was discussion about Gothel's absence.  We're more than 7 episodes into this second half, which is more than half over, and we still have no idea why Gothel needed to reunite the Coven, what she wanted to do with Anastasia, why she wanted to find The Guardian, etc.  The serial killer storyline just ended and we never found out how she felt about her Coven being murdered.  I'm not sure what the white board in the Writers' Room looked like for the planning 7B.  "Gothel disappears for two episodes (maybe three) in present-day plotline to prolong suspense"?   We talk about being fascinated with the problems with this show because how can a bunch of Writers POSSIBLY think it was a good idea to have the main villain be MIA for multiple episodes with no explanation for what the heck she's thinking/doing?  

Edited April 19, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

"Gothel disappears for two episodes (maybe three) in present-day plotline to prolong suspense"? 

It's no wonder the network had to step in 4B when they thought the audience might forget who Robin was.

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We're more than 7 episodes into this second half, which is more than half over, and we still have no idea why Gothel needed to reunite the Coven, what she wanted to do with Anastasia, why she wanted to find The Guardian, etc. 

The Coat Hangers were the big cliffhanger for the second half. So far, we've only seen Leota, the bakery witch, Gothel, the random doctor, and Drizella. (Gretel doesn't count because she didn't even make the entrance exam.) That leaves four other witches. And what have they done? Leota hasn't even been in HH, Gothel just traded Victoria's life for Lucy's (lbr, that had no winners), Drizella just took Anastasia and left, and the doctor and the bakery witch did absolutely nothing at all. What a crappy Coven. They do even less than the typical OUAT Big Bads.

Quote

We talk about being fascinated with the problems with this show because how can a bunch of Writers POSSIBLY think it was a good idea to have the main villain be MIA for multiple episodes with no explanation for what the heck she's thinking/doing?  

It's ironic since we usually complain about too much focus on the main villain. The writing is either too hot or too cold; there's no Goldilocks level. Gothel lost most of her relevance after Drizella and Anastasia left. She's too redundant with Facilier.

Edited April 19, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And then, there's Gothel.  Oh detective, bring me your favorite painting.  I'm SO bad.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And then, there's Gothel.  Oh detective, bring me your favorite painting.  I'm SO bad.

Some villains rip out hearts. Others just smile creepily at the camera to give a homeless girl a seizure.

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

One might even say that Zelena has grown more with her limited time in Season 7 than Rumple or Regina.  Zelena learned not to control her daughter too much, she realized she liked being a regular person and she seems ready to give up magic for Chad.  Of course, very little of this was developed fully, but at least the character has progressed a little this season, unlike R&R.

That's a good point. We even saw her ready to sacrifice herself to save her daughter's life. While Regina cast yet another Dark Curse to save her son's life and is intimately fraternizing with a villain. 

[Camera One]

In the Drizella/Anastasia exit episode, Rumple said something like doing good will help him reunite with Belle.  If that's what he believed all along, why hadn't he been doing a bit more to help?  Couldn't he have gone to get some magical moss to cure Henry?  Why couldn't he have extracted some magic from Anastasia before she left?  I'm sure she would have been okay with it if it would save her beloved stepsister Jacinda's husband.  Why does Dr. Facilier seem to have more powers in the world without magic than everyone else?  Why would his ultra-specific tarot cards even work here?  

[KingOfHearts]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why would his ultra-specific tarot cards even work here?  

Take your pick.

* He has a spare Olympian Crystal under his house.
* He's a Savior who went bad.
* He tossed a coin in a fountain and believes in magic.
* Before the Curse, he took two strands from Henry and Jacinda's hair to make a True Love potion. When that didn't work, he got strands from Tiana and Naveen.

Edited April 19, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

* Before the Curse, he took two strands from Henry and Jacinda's hair to make a True Love potion. When that didn't work, he got strands from Tiana and Naveen.

And when that didn't work, he put one strand of his hair with one strand of Regina's, and that made the strongest True Love potion of all.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

And when that didn't work, he put one strand of his hair with one strand of Regina's, and that made the strongest True Love potion of all.

He kept Jacinda's toast crumbs around just to be safe.

[KingOfHearts]

The promo for next week looks decent, but it's too little, too late. We haven't seen Gothel in three whole episodes. The Coven came to nothing, then all of a sudden, here they are for one episode. Nobody cares about them any more. After we're through with them, it'll be a nonstop freight train to the finale.

I think it's weird that the second half of S7 was setup like it could be the first half of a season. There's much more character development and introducing various things. It's written as if we're going to see another 12 episodes of these people, but we're not. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I can't help but keep comparing the Henry/Jacinda relationship with Snow and Charming from season one, and it's like they totally forgot how to write.

In flashbacks:
Snow and Charming can't be together at first because he's being forced to marry someone else and he'll be killed if he doesn't. Then she takes a memory potion so she won't remember him and therefore won't hurt at the loss, but it makes her forget all love and he nearly gets himself killed trying to break the spell. Then he gets taken prisoner and she agrees to eat the apple that will send her into the sleeping curse in order to save him. He saves her with a True Love's kiss after escaping his prison. Then they have to fight a war to be able to get married and be together.
Henry and Ella meet and spar a bit, then find necklaces that prove they're true love, and then he proposes and I guess they get married.

In the present under the curse:
Mary Margaret brings David out of his coma with a True Love's kiss and they instantly connect -- until Regina shows up with a wife he doesn't remember. He's on the verge of choosing Mary Margaret anyway when Rumple restores his memories so he "remembers" being married to Kathryn. Even so, he and Mary Margaret are drawn together and they have an affair, but when that gets exposed, Mary Margaret is shamed and shunned by the whole community while David waffles, torn between what he thinks is true and what he feels. When Kathryn decides to let them be together while she goes to law school, Regina has her kidnapped and (she thinks) murdered and frames Mary Margaret for the crime.
Henry and Jacinda go on some lackluster dates. There's a temporary potential roadblock when her ex comes back into her life to help her get custody of her daughter, but she quickly chooses Henry, only to find that he's gone on a trip (after Regina remembered what happened and decides to keep the curse from breaking). But he comes back right away when Lucy gets sick (urged by Regina). They're on the verge of kissing when Lucy learns about the poison and objects to their relationship, but then they start hanging out together again, anyway and Lucy thinks it'll all be okay when Regina fixes everything. He gets a job offer and starts to leave town but changes his mind and decides to stay.

It's utterly ridiculous that a room full of professional, experienced TV writers couldn't look at this and realize that they'd created a relationship with absolutely no story to it. The only roadblock or conflict is the fact that Henry will supposedly die if the curse is broken, so they can't have a TLK, but they haven't shown us a relationship that we could believe might create a TLK (unless, I guess, we take into consideration the fact that other couples on this show have had TLKs after a single conversation).

I guess in a way they're doing the same thing with Robin/Margot and Alice/Tilly, since they just seem to have met, liked each other, and started dating, with no real drama, but I don't think they're supposed to be a "drama" relationship.

The only relationship this season with any real drama to it is Alice and her father, since he'll die if they go near each other but they desperately want to be together, and we don't know if the same thing applies to Rogers, so I keep worrying that at some point she's going to hug Rogers and he'll keel over, but they won't know what's wrong with him. And even if that doesn't go wrong, it's bittersweet to see them being able to be together and be happy as Tilly and Rogers while they have no idea what their real relationship is and that if the curse breaks, they'll be torn apart.

[CCTC]

There is another factor besides the writings between Snow and Charming and Henry and Jacinda.

It might just be me, and it is a close call, but I think Snow and Charming might have had more chemistry as a couple than Henry and Cinderella.

[Free]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The promo for next week looks decent, but it's too little, too late. We haven't seen Gothel in three whole episodes. The Coven came to nothing, then all of a sudden, here they are for one episode. Nobody cares about them any more. After we're through with them, it'll be a nonstop freight train to the finale.

I think it's weird that the second half of S7 was setup like it could be the first half of a season. There's much more character development and introducing various things. It's written as if we're going to see another 12 episodes of these people, but we're not. 

 

They basically scrapped ideas from 7a and replaced characters and that was all before they got the announcement from ABC.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Free

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

The only relationship this season with any real drama to it is Alice and her father, since he'll die if they go near each other but they desperately want to be together, and we don't know if the same thing applies to Rogers, so I keep worrying that at some point she's going to hug Rogers and he'll keel over, but they won't know what's wrong with him. And even if that doesn't go wrong, it's bittersweet to see them being able to be together and be happy as Tilly and Rogers while they have no idea what their real relationship is and that if the curse breaks, they'll be torn apart.

I know. That's the relationship drama that ought to have been central to the season, but the writers would never have considered making the main plot centre around someone not Regina or closely connected to her. However, in a way, I think it's good that Knight Rook is not the central conflict, as the writers would have messed it up.

19 minutes ago, CCTC said:

It might just be me, and it is a close call, but I think Snow and Charming might have had more chemistry as a couple than Henry and Cinderella.

If Henry and Murderella had had one tenth of the chemistry of Season 1 Snowing, a lot of the writing failures may have been overlooked. At least be entertaining like Zelena, who, even if she added nothing to the plot, brought life to her scenes. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

Really, this season has proven how lucky the show was with its original actors. They really sold these dramatic, fairy tale romances and circumstances, and they managed to believably be both fairy tale characters, as well as modern people living in Maine. When the writing got contrived or silly, they could do a lot to save it with their performances and chemistry, especially Snowing. Josh and Ginny worked so well together, I even loved them even in later seasons where the writers had clearly gotten sick of them, and either wrote them into the background, or added stupid crap like the egg napping in an attempt to make them look more like the villains. 

This season, the new actor who can really believably be a fairy tale character and a real world character is Tilly/Alice, who actually does feel like two different people, while still being recognizable. Everyone else just acts exactly the same in both worlds, and dont really have great chemistry to make up for it. Even platonic relationships like Emma and Snow/MM, or Red/Ruby and Snow/MM had great chemistry, that allowed you to buy into the connections between the characters, and want them to find each other. Now, all the new people just seem like they're being mildly inconvenienced in Seattle (really, Seattle seems nicer than a lot of their lives in the DisEnchanted Forest) and dont have any real chemistry to make their relationships real. I think we should have been giving the original cast even more credit than we usually do. 

[Camera One]

And the horrible pacing and plotting this season continues.  They spend an entire episode telling us that Alice is the Guardian... uh, could it be any more obvious?  It highlighted that all the crap with Anastasia before was complete filler.  In fact, it's contradictory since Rumple apparently made this huge "sacrifice" to save Guardian Alice in the past, but he seemed ready to do the same thing to Possible Guardian Anastasia.  Rumple's motivations are not clarified by this flashback episode.  It reinforces that he hasn't changed and doesn't deserve Belle yet.  But no worries, four more episodes to redeem him, eh?  

The only actual consequence of the 7-episode serial killer storyline that I can think of, is Henry finding the hospital results saying that he's Lucy's father.  Other than that, the entire storyline could have been excised.  I'm not sure how Henry or Jacinda would do anything with the hospital results except come up with some logical scenario like they got drunk 10 years ago and had a one-night stand and neither of them could remember it.  So really, until they both "wake", these clues are ultimately pointless.

Meanwhile, Mother Gothel has been MIA in the present plotline for 3 episodes. Instead, they've spent the entire 7B inserting Dr. Facilier into various storylines even though he doesn't fit.  He needed sugar on the beignets so that's why he blackmailed Drew into working for Tiana?  He does one thing evil and then he tells Regina that he wasn't trying to be evil, first with the Anastasia/Drizella exit episode and now with Nick's murder.  It's like they're trying to keep him open for redemption.  But his reasons for killing Nick needed to make sense to Regina for her to still give him the light of day.

At the end of the day, they're using characters like Zelena, Dr. Facilier and Nick to go around in circles, until the Curse could break and Gothel could be defeated.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

They spend an entire episode telling us that Alice is the Guardian... uh, could it be any more obvious? 

It was obvious straight from 7x04, when Rumple said he was going to seek the Guardian and immediately bumped into Alice.

Quote

In fact, it's contradictory since Rumple apparently made this huge "sacrifice" to save Guardian Alice in the past, but he seemed ready to do the same thing to Possible Guardian Anastasia.  Rumple's motivations are not clarified by this flashback episode.  It reinforces that he hasn't changed and doesn't deserve Belle yet.  But no worries, four more episodes to redeem him, eh?  

It's just proof that Rumple had no master plan. All season, he's been playing a passive role. It was what it looked like. He doesn't do anything sneaky behind the scenes. He was reacting to the villains as much as everyone else was.

Quote

At the end of the day, they're using characters like Zelena, Dr. Facilier and Nick to go around in circles, until the Curse could break and Gothel could be defeated.

They had to tread some water in S1, but the padding plots were actually interesting and developed the characters. They were still relevant because they explained more about the motivations of the major players and fleshed out the world a bit. The Kathryn murder plot didn't get anyone much closer to breaking the curse, but it did explain the hatred Regina had for Snow.

Edited April 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

If Henry and Murderella had had one tenth of the chemistry of Season 1 Snowing, a lot of the writing failures may have been overlooked.

No matter how much chemistry they had, I'm not sure they'd be interesting given the writing. They'd have just been boring with good chemistry. For that relationship to be interesting, it needs some kind of conflict and struggle. With good chemistry, they might have convinced us that they actually wanted to be together (something that's entirely missing from that relationship), but then there would have been nothing to keep them apart.

[Camera One]

The tension would be that they would still not remember each other.  Though the writing this season was often so bad that even Josh Dallas wouldn't be able to look endearing holding a boombox over his head and critiquing Mary Margaret's musical tastes.  However, the scene this week where Henry tells Jacinda about the medical results would have been more powerful with actors with actual chemistry.  Season 1 almost had the opposite problem where so many contrived obstacles were thrown in their way that viewers got very little satisfaction.  Like with the adultery storyline, it made me feel guilty for wanting Mary Margaret and David to be together.  

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

They had to tread some water in S1, but the padding plots were actually interesting and developed the characters. They were still relevant because they explained more about the motivations of the major players and fleshed out the world a bit. The Kathryn murder plot didn't get anyone much closer to breaking the curse, but it did explain the hatred Regina had for Snow.

They really didn't learn a thing from Season 1 in that sense, where a big problem to me was Emma never progressing much in her belief all season.  Somehow, I felt that it was possible for her to gradually believe more earlier than the Season 1 finale.  I don't know why my feeling about this is different this season.  I don't feel that Henry can believe in the Seattle world.  I suppose maybe if he had never found his wife and daughter's gravestones (not that this has been referred to once in 7B).

The other important character developments that resulted from the Kathryn murder plot was forcing Emma and Mary Margaret closer together in a relationship of trust, showing the huge dichotomy between each character and their Curse personality (for example, in how David reacted), revealing the power play between Rumple and Regina (with him not killing Kathryn and letting her go) and increasing the danger to Henry with a cold-hearted and unethical guardian like Regina.

In contrast, the Nick storyline didn't really affect/develop any of the main characters in any meaningful way.  He was Jacinda's Curse ex, but they hardly interacted in the whole storyline.  Whook and Rogers were looking for him, but it was just a normal case.  The only person with an actual past with Nick was Zelena and she was a recurring guest.  I suppose Drizella was a target too but she was an exiting guest.  Alice was framed, but it still makes no sense that Nick would know to frame her (the speculation is that it was Gothel who framed her).  We'll see how much it affects Henry long-term.  But then again, Henry could have found that medical test himself in the 7B premiere without 7 episodes of filler.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

41 minutes ago, Camera One said:

They really didn't learn a thing from Season 1 in that sense, where a big problem to me was Emma never progressing much in her belief all season.  Somehow, I felt that it was possible for her to gradually believe more earlier than the Season 1 finale.  I don't know why my feeling about this is different this season.  I don't feel that Henry can believe in the Seattle world.  I suppose maybe if he had never found his wife and daughter's gravestones (not that this has been referred to once in 7B).

It seems like they're trying to make Henry's belief more gradual, but it's unclear why he's even considering the possibility that it's all true. He doesn't really need to. Emma believing was pivotal to breaking the original curse and waking her son up from the turnover, but Henry believing wouldn't change much. He can still be with Lucy and Jacinda unhindered, so why does it matter? It sort of did when he could have kissed her awake in 7x10, but that didn't work. It's kind of a moot point now.

The only person who really needs their memories right now is Rogers, since he's kind of getting in the way without them.

Quote

But then again, Henry could have found that medical test himself in the 7B premiere without 7 episodes of filler.

I'm honestly surprised the medical test came back at all. It seemed like another part of Chekov's arsenal. It's as if Emma found Hook's voicemail in 4A or something.

Edited April 22, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Even Shakespeare would fall flat with Henry and Jacinda. On the other hand, even with mediocre writing, Alice and Robyn are more convincing because they have great chemistry. I don't understand how the casting team failed so badly with the Season 7 actors. I checked imdb to see if the casting team had changed before Season 7, but nope. I don't get it. Of all the newbies, the most successful has been Rose Reynolds (Alice). The Gothel actress isn't bad, but she doesn't have the presence of the original series villains. Same with Facilier. He is smooth, but not smooth enough. 

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The Gothel actress isn't bad, but she doesn't have the presence of the original series villains. Same with Facilier. He is smooth, but not smooth enough. 

They're both two-dimensional villains. They're not really characters as much as they're antagonists for the sake of being antagonists. Facilier's relationship with Regina doesn't "gray" him at all.

[Camera One]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Even Shakespeare would fall flat with Henry and Jacinda. 

They would be great in some of the ending scenes of Romeo and Juliet.

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Facilier's relationship with Regina doesn't "gray" him at all.

I'm not sure what the point of that whole subplot is.  It doesn't develop Regina and it doesn't deepen Facilier.  If they're seriously trying to give Regina a true love, they're possibly doing the worst job ever.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If they're trying to give Regina a true love, they're possibly doing the worst job ever.

He's not even Regina's type, given her history. She has always dated "good guy" types and wanted to stray from her villainous past. Everything about their relationship just feels wrong, like they she shouldn't be in it. As toxic as Rumpbelle was, they had some sort of twisted chemistry. (In that, she was codependent and he was a narcissist.) Regina and Facilier are rubber and glue.

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina and Facilier are rubber and glue.

Compared to them, Henry and Jacinda are practically squee-worthy.  They are that devoid of chemistry to me.

[Rumsy4]

Yesterday's episode sealed the deal for me against Facilier/Regina. There's zero chemistry and zero compatibility between the two charatcers. At this point, this being yet another failed romance for Regina would be the better outcome. 

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

The tension would be that they would still not remember each other. 

But what difference would that make? Nothing would really change if they remembered each other. I guess they'd stop the are they sort of dating maybe or not thing and know they were together, but there's nothing stopping them from being together, with or without their memories. Maybe the lack of chemistry is deliberate, since if they had an ounce of chemistry with each other it would be hard to believe they haven't yet gone in for the kiss that will kill Henry (maybe -- that still makes no sense). And it doesn't help that they have zero chemistry in the flashbacks, when they remember each other.

Generally, there are a few kinds of conflict that can be used in developing a romantic story. There's the total opposites who bicker a lot routine, which, to their credit, this show hasn't actually done, aside from Missing Year Robin and Regina (and which managed to be totally dropped once she knew about the tattoo). There's external conflict, with outside forces tearing them apart, like with the Charmings, past and present, in season one. And there's internal conflict, personal issues they have to deal with before they can get into a relationship, which was Emma and Hook for the most part, with her WALLS! and his guilt complex (though they also occasionally had external stuff, like the Dark One and him being dead).

Henry and Murderella have none of this. They've done some halfhearted bickering and sparring, but it doesn't seem like they're even pretending not to be interested in each other. No circumstances or outside forces are stopping them from being together. The closest they've come to internal issues is him wanting to give her an engagement ring with a story that proves he's some kind of hero.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

But what difference would that make? Nothing would really change if they remembered each other.

I didn't say the tension would actually be high, LOL.  I mean, on paper, it would be a big deal to remember their life together and their child, but we've hardly seen any significant events in their life which would be worth remembering.   

It was a huge difference in Season 1 when there was so much anticipation for David and Mary Margaret to remember, and that was also because of Emma, not just the coupling.  They would remember how they lost 28 years with her and 28 years together.  Before remembering, David and MM weren't happy.

In contrast, we don't even know how long Henry and Jacinda have been in Hyperion Heights.  They actually got to raise their daughter.  Plus Henry and Jacinda's lives are actually pretty good in Hyperion Heights right now.  And as you said, they're borderline dating so that wouldn't change.

I think the main pairing that we really want to see remember are Whook and Alice, but even for them, remembering isn't as huge a deal because the father/daughter are in a good place right now.  Ditto for Robyn/Alice.  But I think we're meant to be on the edge of our seats waiting for them all to wake and that's a major climax for this season.  

Edited April 22, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yesterday's episode sealed the deal for me against Facilier/Regina. There's zero chemistry and zero compatibility between the two charatcers. At this point, this being yet another failed romance for Regina would be the better outcome. 

Have they explained how they have met yet? It kind of seemed in their first scenes that he knew her in her original EQ stage,, but that would not make sense, because that would be in a different realm (although they seem to forget Jacinda-EF is a hard to get to place).  If they met in the disenchanted forest, it would have been after Regina had reformed and it would not make sense for her to get recklessly involved with a dark character.

Part of the problem with the relationship is that we have not really seen them have any normal interactions.  Most of the scenes have been short "shocking" revelation scenes or short scenes where they are trying to get information from one another.  None of the scenes have shown why they are attracted for each other and their relationship seems purely plot driven and does not really make any sense on its own.