A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[KingOfHearts]

Not sure how feel about the Dr. Facilier casting from the promo. I'd think they'd go for someone more slim-faced. Dr. Facilier seems like the type who would hide behind his magic instead of using brawn. It's just a nitpick, I suppose.

[Shanna Marie]

On 10/29/2017 at 10:13 PM, Camera One said:

In the vein of A&E's ridiculous analogy of "Henry leaving for another realm is just like any other young adult going off to college", Belle and Rumple going off to the Edge of Realm is just like a couple of snowbirds vacationing in Cancun, right?  Seriously, there was no rush for Rumple to become mortal, so at least live out the rest of your life at the same rate of Gideon, so he wouldn't have to watch you die after two visits from college.  I'm sorry, but these characters are not relatable at all.

And wasn't Rumple's desire to become mortal mostly about not wanting to watch Belle grow old and die? Well, that happened anyway. Does he still want to die? When whatever happens that ends his immortality, does that mean he drops dead right then, or does he start aging normally from that point? I guess if he ages normally, he might still be around for Gideon, but he's away from Gideon (and possibly in an entirely different time stream) while he's looking for death. It seems weird for parents to be working to die faster while they have a son who's still a young adult. They're working to leave their kid orphaned, after separating him from his only blood relatives and any friends who might form a support network for him. I hope the Weasleys at not!Hogwarts took him in. I could buy Belle ditching her father, since she did it once to go be Rumple's servant, and then she didn't go back to him when Rumple set her free, but the one thing that got her to break up with Rumple was the safety and well-being of her son, so it seems odd for her to put her priority on dying faster so Rumple could become mortal, without apparently much thought for what that would do to her son.

As for Henry, he's been the one preaching the gospel of family all along. He wanted to be part of a big, extended family, not just being somewhat isolated with a single mother. He's been the one giving the "but they're family" rallying cry. He was excited to have grandparents. Now he finally has what he wants, not just the single adoptive mother but also a two-parent home literally with a white picket fence, plus grandparents, a baby uncle, a wacky aunt, a cousin, and, depending on whether the Nautilus survived and they got the material they needed to cross realms every so often, a dashing young uncle. So he's suddenly going to ditch all that, willingly? And then stay away when he knows there's a younger sibling on the way?

Of course, the story needed Rumple and Henry to be off elsewhere and Belle to be written out, but they needed to come up with better reasons. It was built-in with Henry being the Author, if he found he'd been writing stories about a particular world in his sleep and then a door appeared, and he knew he had to leave, even though he didn't want to.

I had a wacky theory that what we're thinking is a curse isn't really anything like the Dark Curse. Instead, Hyperion Heights/Seattle is an Author-created AU, with everyone written into different roles. Since Victoria is aware and Henry isn't, I'm going with Victoria somehow forcing him to do it. That would explain how Victoria's planning to do magic to revive her daughter in the World Without Magic, and it might explain how Weaver survived the wound that should have killed him and that led Rogers to quip that he must be immortal -- in the World Without Magic, Rumple wouldn't be immortal. He could die. But because they're not really in the World Without Magic, his powers kick in and save him. That might also explain why Lady Tremaine needed the heart of the Truest Believer for her spell in the other world, while she needs to destroy Lucy's belief in this world (like the dark Savior blood vs. light Savior blood in the previous AU). And it would explain all that crazy stuff that shouldn't be working, like Victoria being able to get custody of Lucy for no good reason, the public shadiness of the police with no one blinking an eye, Victoria being able to get medical records of random people. They only think they're in 2017 Seattle, and it's 2017 because that was the last time Henry was in our world. I'm not sure why Seattle, other than maybe he, Emma, and Hook took a family vacation there (Hook wanted to see one of the other oceans? The Lady Washington was in port and Emma thought he would like to see this world's kind of ship? Henry wanted to see a totally different part of the country?). And that's why Lucy thinks Henry can break the "curse." It's not that he's the Savior, it's that he's the Author and can unwrite it.

[Camera One]

The more I think about it, the more I think "The Garden of Forking Paths" should have been eliminated as an episode.  Jacinda gaining people's support in Hyperion Heights should have occurred at the end of Episode 1 instead of that dumb running away plot.  Maybe a backgrounder on Cinderella could have taken the first few flashbacks, ending with how Cinders met Henry.   Lucy going underground was pointless and went nowhere.  Likewise, Rogers attempting to arrest that city official was unrealistic and pointless.  Victoria and the prisoner in the tower seems like it just came out of nowhere for a cliffhanger.

Looking at the first four episodes, it feels so disjointed and empty, even disregarding the bad acting and lack of chemistry.

Episode 1  HH: Henry comes, car stolen, meets Jacinda, sells her out when she tries to run away with Lucy    FB: Henry & Cinders meet, murder at the ball

Episode 2 HH: Henry helps Jacinda attend Lucy's ballet recital.  Rogers resists Weaver in framing Henry   FB: Rogers is Whook.  Regina joins Adult Henry.

Episode 3 HH: Jacinda saves community garden.  Victoria gets coffin.  Reveal prisoner.  FB: Victoria wants Cinders to take Henry's heart.  Reveal Anastasia.

Episode 4 HH: Victoria wants Weaver to give Tilly pills.  Tilly helps Rumple remember himself.  Ivy meets Henry.  FB: Belle dies.  Rumple wants to become mortal.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The more I think about it, the more I think "The Garden of Forking Paths" should have been eliminated as an episode.

The thing with  "Garden of the Forking Paths" is you have to find the Millserella melodrama compelling to enjoy most of the episode. If you think Jacinda is just a murderous bitch, then you're SOL. The same could be said for Snow Falls. If you didn't like Snowing all that much, you wouldn't learn anything really new in the flashbacks that you wanted to. The fact is Snowing is just a far better couple.

[KAOS Agent]

Their biggest issue is that the present day stories aren't connected by one single thread or person. S1 had Emma connecting with the random centric character of the day such that the Storybrooke side continued to develop the main characters even as the flashbacks may have only included one or two of the mains as a side for a one off story like Jiminy or Cinderella. We knew the basic facts of the past, so they were simply filling in with details of how it all came about and who these people are/were. With this new story, we have no understanding of what happened in the past or the characters relationships to each other. They also aren't connecting the central characters in the present. Emma came to town and started forming bonds with each character she met. Henry isn't seen doing the same.

Wish!Hook had his centric and he still has no developed relationship with Henry or Cinderella in the past or the present. Rumpel had his centric and his main association in the past was Belle, who is now dead. In the present, he's also not connecting with Henry or Cinderella. He's partners with Rogers and associating with Alice and they've got the cryptic talk going with Victoria, but he doesn't really interact with the other main characters. That's two of four episodes where the centrics didn't inform the relationships in the present or move the main Cinderella story forward in a meaningful way.  None of this is going to engage the audience and get them interested in the new characters. Add in monumentally stupid timeline shenanigans and you've got a confused and largely uninterested audience.

[oncebluethrone]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

Their biggest issue is that the present day stories aren't connected by one single thread or person. S1 had Emma connecting with the random centric character of the day such that the Storybrooke side continued to develop the main characters even as the flashbacks may have only included one or two of the mains as a side for a one off story like Jiminy or Cinderella. We knew the basic facts of the past, so they were simply filling in with details of how it all came about and who these people are/were. With this new story, we have no understanding of what happened in the past or the characters relationships to each other. They also aren't connecting the central characters in the present. Emma came to town and started forming bonds with each character she met. Henry isn't seen doing the same.

Wish!Hook had his centric and he still has no developed relationship with Henry or Cinderella in the past or the present. Rumpel had his centric and his main association in the past was Belle, who is now dead. In the present, he's also not connecting with Henry or Cinderella. He's partners with Rogers and associating with Alice and they've got the cryptic talk going with Victoria, but he doesn't really interact with the other main characters. That's two of four episodes where the centrics didn't inform the relationships in the present or move the main Cinderella story forward in a meaningful way.  None of this is going to engage the audience and get them interested in the new characters. Add in monumentally stupid timeline shenanigans and you've got a confused and largely uninterested audience.

I think the first 4 episodes were meant to connect the "new show" with the "old show" so hopefully things will start moving forward in episode 5. 

[jhlipton]

On 10/26/2017 at 6:58 AM, Shanna Marie said:

When you look at her actions in the flashbacks, she's basically a villain, but we're supposed to see her as the heroine.

She's an Inhuman!

On 10/26/2017 at 6:50 PM, Rumsy4 said:

 A&E haven't done any favors to advance diversity with their casting and writing choices for New!Cinders.

Teen Wolf pulled a similar thing in their last season -- the first major Black woman on the show spent the entire time sneering.  It was such a limited performance, and the actress could do much better.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I had a wacky theory that what we're thinking is a curse isn't really anything like the Dark Curse. Instead, Hyperion Heights/Seattle is an Author-created AU, with everyone written into different roles.

This would actually be really good, and as you noted, would make a lot of things make sense.  I just don't have faith in these showrunners to come up with something that unique and complex when they've used the Dark Curse several times before. 

[Rumsy4]

The article has more details on the charatcer. So, don't click if you would rather avoid knowing more details on grown-up Robyn.

4 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Grown-up Baby Robin has been cast.

Looks like SORAS hit all the Storybrooke babies. Seriously...

Edited November 1, 2017 by Rumsy4

[jhlipton]

49 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Looks like SORAS hit all the Storybrooke babies. Seriously...

Yuck!

[Shanna Marie]

On 10/31/2017 at 9:00 PM, KAOS Agent said:

Their biggest issue is that the present day stories aren't connected by one single thread or person. S1 had Emma connecting with the random centric character of the day such that the Storybrooke side continued to develop the main characters even as the flashbacks may have only included one or two of the mains as a side for a one off story like Jiminy or Cinderella.

I think that's the big key. All the plot lines in the present tied back to the curse -- Rumple setting his pieces in place for what he wanted, Regina trying to undermine Emma with Henry so he'd reject Emma and she'd leave, Regina getting desperate as the curse weakened so that she had to work harder to torment Snow, Emma challenging Regina's authority, Henry trying to make Emma believe. Even in a one-off centric like Jiminy's, where the backstory didn't really connect with everything else, the present-day story still came back to that central story. It was about Henry trying to make Emma believe, the curse weakening on Archie, and the Regina vs. Emma clash, and it was an ensemble piece with most of the cast involved.

With season seven, everyone's in their little silos. They've been trying up loose ends with the returning cast, but they haven't done much to integrate the new cast into the returning cast. Aside from the Hook and Rumple centrics, they've been more or less sidelined, and when they are on, they're mostly together rather than either of them doing much to interact with new characters. I guess we've had Victoria and Rumple snarling at each other, and a couple of scenes with Rogers and Henry, but you'd think they'd want the popular returning (well, sort of, in WHook's case, but it is the returning actor) characters to keep the old viewers interested and bring them around to the new characters. I think they've banked way too much on this being a good entry point for new viewers. The ratings look like viewers have left and probably not many have joined.

[Camera One]

This new season is neither here nor there because of the mix of old and new, and they aren't doing either well.  

Season 7, four episodes in, we have only gotten to know two fairy-tale characters "well" - Cinderella and Victoria, and three other fairy-tale characters, in cursory ways - Drizella, Alice and Tiana.  That's five fairy-tale characters... hardly a community.  We still haven't seen Victoria evict anybody... we assume it because that was what A&E pushed in interviews.  

Season 1, four episodes in, we knew four fairy-tale characters well (Snow, Charming, Regina, Rumple), along with an array of other fairy-tale characters, though many were minor or guests (Archie, Grumpy, Granny, Gepetto, Blue, Red, Cinderella, Maleficent).  

If someone watched Season 7 to see a fairy tale mash-up, there wouldn't be much to see?  It's more like a modern-day Cinderella, except not really, and super confusing with random detours that have nothing to do with Cinderella.  

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

 If they wanted to do that, they should've just shown the old cast in flashbacks and had the new curse be done by someone of the new generation. 

Half the time, they don't even know what they want.  They wanted a show that still had Regina, Rumple and Hook, and they wanted to start from scratch with all the boring characters.  But they had already visited the Disney cul de sac one too many times, so tell themselves they're doing a new twist on Cinderella and Alice.  But then they realized it's all failing, so they bring back their next favorite, Zelena (who they probably couldn't get back due to budget cuts) and throw in her daughter so there are stakes for the character.  

Edited November 2, 2017 by Camera One

[Kktjones]

So of course he's deleted it, but Adam tweeted "HH isn't ten years in future. It's in 2017". So this means it's only been 6 years since Henry went and found Emma. So he would be 16, Emma would be 34, etc. If they are trying to say that Henry left town when he was 18, that means that current day HH is actually in the past for these characters. I did wonder if the characters (or at least some of them) traveled back in time. Luckily I don't really care. And apparently neither do the writers!

Edited November 2, 2017 by Kktjones

[tri4335]

59 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Half the time, they don't even know what they want.  They wanted a show that still had Regina, Rumple and Hook, and they wanted to start from scratch with all the boring characters.  But they had already visited the Disney cul de sac one too many times, so tell themselves they're doing a new twist on Cinderella and Alice.  But then they realized it's all failing, so they bring back their next favorite, Zelena (who they probably couldn't get back due to budget cuts) and throw in her daughter so there are stakes for the character.  

What they wanted was a show that kept Regina, Rumple, Hook and Emma! They wanted to keep their queer bating on full throttle and you know that there would be no way that Emma and Hook were a couple in HH. It would be a love triangle between the three or they may have actually grown a set and had Regina and Emma in a relationship.  I imagine A & E are sitting in their offices blaming the audience for not understanding their vision and blaming JMO for ruining what they had planned since she didn't want to sign on for that treatment. But in no way do they blame themselves and their lack of writing skills.

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

Season 7, four episodes in, we have only gotten to know two fairy-tale characters "well" - Cinderella and Victoria, and three other fairy-tale characters, in cursory ways - Drizella, Alice and Tiana.  That's five fairy-tale characters... hardly a community.  We still haven't seen Victoria evict anybody... we assume it because that was what A&E pushed in interviews.  

Season 1, four episodes in, we knew four fairy-tale characters well (Snow, Charming, Regina, Rumple), along with an array of other fairy-tale characters, though many were minor or guests (Archie, Grumpy, Granny, Gepetto, Blue, Red, Cinderella, Maleficent).    

I found myself thinking about that when composing my snark about what one-off characters they might base the second hour of the upcoming two-hour episode on, and I realized that we don't really have those kinds of characters -- the Archie, Dwarf, Granny, etc. types. Season one managed to introduce the main characters, establish the community, and still do a guest story for a fairy tale mashup within the first four episodes. I know they had a tricky situation here where they needed to explain the presence of the returning cast and reassure viewers about how the characters ended up. I'm not sure how successful they were. Reaction about WHook seems split between "it's not really Hook, so I don't care and I'm done" and "whew, it's not really Hook. Our Hook is safe at home with his wife and child and without his annoying stepson, his wife's frenemy, and his nemesis, so it's safe to watch." I don't know what reaction was to Belle dying of old age. But I think the real problem is in the way they've told the story around that. The first episode was just bad. If they'd handled that better, they could have established the characters in a way that made us care from the start.

I think Victoria is another problem because she's all over the map. So far:

• She's gentrifying the neighborhood to push the fairy tale people out (not that we've really seen any of these fairy tale people, or anyone being evicted)
• She's taking Lucy away from Jacinda and trying to keep them separated (but not doing a very good job of it)
• She seems to want to torture Jacinda, in general
• It looks like her real goal is to revive Anastasia by destroying Lucy's belief, but she messed around with other stuff before even going after the coffin
• She wanted Henry arrested and out of Hyperion Heights (but seems to have forgotten about that)
• She's got a witch prisoner
• and she wants to make sure Tilly stays on her meds so she won't remember

She has multiple entirely different goals in each episode, and they seem to be mostly unrelated. Meanwhile, our heroes are mostly reactive, which means they're also all over the map.

[Camera One]

This episode highlighted once again how the Cursed selves are a problem when they aren't fleshed out.  I feel like the concept in Season 1 where the Cursed selves were more defined and clear worked better.  The Cursed characters like Graham and Mary Margaret didn't have a past but we see the emotions they've been struggling through for 28 years so we can feel the damage that has been done.

In Hyperion Heights, they throw in information like Henry lost his wife and daughter, but it's hard to connect to any of it (especially when he sees the graves and then the next episode is about whether he can summon enough courage to ask Jacinda out to a Halloween party).  In "Greenbacks", Lucy throws out that Sabine grew up in poverty and wished on fireflies.  That doesn't mean anything.  Apparently, Sabine is still throw-caution-to-the-wind and full of pick-me-ups for Mopey Murderella, but why would that poverty-filled background result in that personality?  The Cursed personalities in Season 7 are not very different from their Enchanted Forest Redux personalities, so there's no reward for Henry coming to Hyperion Heights, if that's even doing anything.  Heck, Henry didn't talk to Sabine once in this episode.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Henry is supposed to be the main character in the same vein as Emma, but he really stopped being the main drive of the story. He just kind of sits around Roni's bar while the other characters go off on important matters. He isn't helping WHook find his daughter/missing girl, he's done nothing to sabotage Victoria, and he only helped at the ballet as an apology to Jacinda for selling her out. He's floundering between Jacinda and Ivy with no real direction. His actions are very reactionary. He followed Lucy down the hole because she jumped, he went to go find her with Ivy because she was missing on Halloween, and now he's pursuing Ivy because she asked him to help her take down Victoria. His grief over his wife and daughter hasn't translated into any sort of motivation onscreen. We're supposed to just assume he wants to be with Jacinda and Lucy out of loneliness. He doesn't seem all that unhappy, and he doesn't have any stakes. 

[Camera One]

Emma/Young Henry also had a gradual developing bond.  Lucy seems to have forgotten about Henry.  She didn't even try to make him stay after she was "found" in the Halloween episode.  I mean, if she really does remember Henry as her father, it should be really painful to watch him not recognize her at all.  But she's chipper and doesn't really seem all that bothered by living with Victoria.  Like with Henry, there are zero stakes in Victoria keeping Lucy.  Victoria *talks* about destroying her belief, but there is no sign she's doing anything about it. 

What was the big hurry with digging up Anastasia two episodes ago again?  What was the consequence to the bombshell that Rumple was "awake"?  There is very little momentum.  Although I did think this week's episode was decent, in the grand scheme of things, basically - Tiana had a bake sale.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Cursed personalities in Season 7 are not very different from their Enchanted Forest Redux personalities

That's one of the biggest problems of the season. In Season 1, we could tell the difference between the EF and Storybrooke personalities, especially when the Curse started weakening and the characters' original personas started seeping through. In Season 7, it's hard to get a hold of what anyone's true persona is.  

Murderella doesn't seem unsympathetic in HH solely because she is Cursed, as her EF persona is not very engaging either. So what's the difference, and why should we root for her to remember other than for Lucy's sake? Tiana seems the same in both. We don't really know much about adult Henry, but his motivations in HH are not very clear. He is just drifting along.

Is de-aged WHook a cinnamon roll like Detective Rogers, or more like the Hook we know or a buffoon like when he was older? Did Regina start spouting hope speeches in Alt EF? Or will she revert back to snark once she gets her memories back? It's hard to get a handle on the endgame for most of the characters because nothing has been clearly demarcated between their cursed and uncursed selves.

The only two characters with clear agendas are WHook/Rogers and Rumple/Weaver. But after their centrics, there has been very little to no follow-up. At least we got something on Rogers' missing girl case this episode. It was a bad move to have not even one scene with Weaver, though. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's one of the biggest problems of the season. In Season 1, we could tell the difference between the EF and Storybrooke personalities, especially when the Curse started weakening and the characters' original personas started seeping through. In Season 7, it's hard to get a hold of what anyone's true persona is.  

I actually had hope (ha!) that this would change with the Tiana episode, since I assumed we were getting into one-off centric territory.  But as you said, I really don't see the difference between the pre and post Curse version.  Tiana doesn't actually come to any realization in her episode.  She had plans, Victoria messed with them, and she ends up with plans.  Unless we're supposed to assume she came up with the idea to sell the beignets because of Henry coming to Hyperion Heights?

[Shanna Marie]

The other thing that isn't really clear is what "destroy Lucy's belief" really means. Belief in what? The curse and that they're all fairy tale characters? Her belief in her mother? Belief in Henry?

Regardless, Victoria's actions seem counterproductive. If she doesn't want Lucy to believe that Victoria is the evil stepmother and Jacinda is Cinderella, then maybe it would be a good idea to not act like the evil stepmother and not treat Jacinda like Cinderella. Taking Lucy away from Jacinda just makes Victoria seem more evil and makes Jacinda look heroic for being present when other people go to great lengths to allow her to see her daughter. Boasting about raising the rent in front of Lucy reinforces Lucy's belief in the curse/evil stepmother thing. Regina at least managed to pull off her evil while putting on a good front, so her evil only looked evil if you knew about the curse. With Victoria, everyone, even those deep in the curse, know she's up to no good. Her evil is so petty, and it doesn't look like she's serving her goals.

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The other thing that isn't really clear is what "destroy Lucy's belief" really means. Belief in what? The curse and that they're all fairy tale characters? Her belief in her mother? Belief in Henry?

We're supposed to be on the edge of our seats to find out what Mophead revealed to Victoria as the "root" of Lucy's belief that needs to be destroyed first.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh my God Jacinda is seriously the WORST. I am sick of every episode having her be an asshole for most of the episode, only for her to come around and do the right thing in the last few minutes, after someone gives her a speech that murder/murder/being an asshole to your BFF isn't the right move.

This is right on.  It has become a pattern, and it has only been 5 episodes.  And in this latest episode, the speech actually happened OFF-SCREEN.  We never see Jacinda coming to a realization on her own.  It's getting ridiculous.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Another problem with not starting off the season with flashbacks of Cinderella with her evil stepmother and stepsister in the Enchanted Forest Redux is that I still don't see Jacinda and Ivy as stepsisters, since we never saw them having a scene together in the flashbacks.  

[PixiePaws1]

I think a better idea would have been a few made for tv movies, like the CS movie, with each framing the pairings we know...especially if the Snowing and CS ones didn't have Regina in it..yes.. i know, leaving Reggie out is a foreign concept to A&E. Individual movies with time taken to actually plot..and tie up plot lines..

Would have loved swashbuckling adventures on the Jolly with fun and flirting instead of angst and separations and SQ baiting.

I know...I'm dreaming..

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

This is right on.  It has become a pattern, and it has only been 5 episodes.  And in this latest episode, the speech actually happened OFF-SCREEN.  We never see Jacinda coming to a realization on her own.  It's getting ridiculous.  

This is where we needed to have seen the scene in which Jacinda got the truck from Rogers. We needed to see her realizing that she screwed up and figuring out what to do about it. We also needed to know how she got help from someone we haven't really seen her interact with in a positive way before who's not an obvious person to go to for help in this kind of situation. And it helps in bringing in new characters/cast members to see them with older characters/cast members. We like Rogers because he's basically Hook and is played by Colin, so if Rogers likes Jacinda, we might like her better. The same kind of thing would apply to Roni and Jacinda. We've seen Regina read her the riot act in the flashback, but they've barely spoken in the present. It was weird on multiple levels seeing Roni urge Henry toward Jacinda (started to type Regina there--Freudian slip, I guess). I haven't heard too many people urging someone to date someone just because she's a single mother, and then there's the fact that in the past, Regina caught her on the verge of murdering someone. I suppose that means she's a girl after Regina's own heart, but most moms wouldn't be encouraging their sons to date someone like that. True, Roni doesn't know this, but it made me squirm, and what do you bet that Regina starts matchmaking in the flashbacks, assuming they ever get around to showing that story?

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's almost as if the writers want us to hate Jacinda.

You know, there may be something in that, even if it was sub-conscious. A&E clearly prefer their villanous characters, as they could hardly be bothered to think of storylines for the so-called heroic characters like Snowing and Emma in the later seasons. But they know they can't openly headline a faux-hopeful fairytale show with an obvious villain. So, they ended up with a character like Jacinda who's neither here nor there. They tried to make her fallible and "badass" but forgot to throw in any redeemable qualities into the mix. 

In the meantime, their new favorites seem to be Alice (who is mysterious like Rumple), Ivy (shades of Regina), and Mophead (who is written along the lines of other female villains of the Show). Of the returning four, I think they feel Weaver is their strongest asset for some reason. But they have given WHook the most clear plotline. Roni is just there to serve alcohol and make in-jokes. Even Henry has nothing substantial. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

You know, there may be something in that, even if it was sub-conscious. A&E clearly prefer their villanous characters, as they could hardly be bothered to think of storylines for the so-called heroic characters like Snowing and Emma in the later seasons. But they know they can't openly headline a faux-hopeful fairytale show with an obvious villain. So, they ended up with a character like Jacinda who's neither here nor there. They tried to make her fallible and "badass" but forgot to throw in any redeemable qualities into the mix. 

A thousand times this.  That's why I think it actually won't be much of a sacrifice for A&E if they have to write Jacinda/Cinderella out.  She's the type of character they would be struggling to write for after she remembers Henry anyhow.  It's not that surprising their attempt to re-create Snow/Emma in the form of Jacinda/Cinderella failed utterly and completely.  Although the actress is weak, with the horrible writing, they would have needed an actress with charisma through the roof, and insta-amazing-romantic chemistry with Andrew J. West, to make Jacinda/Cinderella someone viewers could relate to or root for.  I don't think even a young Meryl Streep could have pulled it off.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

In the meantime, their new favorites seem to be Alice (who is mysterious like Rumple), Ivy (shades of Regina), and Mophead (who is written along the lines of other female villains of the Show). Of the returning four, I think they feel Weaver is their strongest assent for some reason. But they have given WHook the most clear plotline. Roni is just there to serve alcohol and make in-jokes. Even Henry has nothing substantial. 

I honestly have no idea what the writers are attempting to accomplish this season. They want us to think the new stories are totally rad, but the focus has changed drastically week to week. (Due in part to the infamous centric formula.) Every episode seems to add a new storyline that should be somewhat important. Nothing is really connected. Jacinda is the only character being forced down our throats, but even then I'm not sure if the writers are dead set on her. They might go a completely different direction in reaction to the backlash. They started the season with the "epic love" between her and Henry, but they don't seem to be entirely sold on it either. If they were, you'd think Jacinda would be reciprocating. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Although the actress is weak, with the horrible writing, they would have needed an actress with charisma through the roof, and insta-amazing-romantic chemistry with Andrew J. West, to make Jacinda/Cinderella someone viewers could relate to or root for. 

The writers lucked-out incredibly with the original cast, plus the writing was mostly pretty good in the first season. Ginny, Josh, JMo, and Carlyle were all seasoned actors, and even if Lana hadn't done much at that point, she was spot on in S1. The chemistry between Ginny and Josh was off the charts, and their Real Life romance probably helped with that a lot. 

I donno much about the resume of Andrew West and Dania Ramirez, but they don't seem to have the experience to pull off bad writing. Even the original main cast were sort of sleep walking through the mess that was Season 6. With the subpar writing for S7, the newbies don't have a prayer. 

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I honestly have no idea what the writers are attempting to accomplish this season.

It's vaguely about breaking the Curse. WHook's goals are somewhat aligned, but Weaver is on a whole another Show.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It's vaguely about breaking the Curse.

There doesn't seem to be much point in breaking it. Everyone's in the same positions regardless of their memories, with just a few small exceptions. There's no angst. WHook and Rogers are both presumably looking for the same person. Weaver, Alice, Ivy, and Lucy are all awake. The goal is to take down Victoria both in the past and present. While in S1 it was the same kind of deal with Regina, the circumstances were very different. In flashbacks you had Snowing waging war to take back the kingdom. In the present, there was a heated custody battle over Henry. But here in S7, it's a group of people in a loose underground resistance with the same dynamics in both realms. Jacinda can go "boohoo" over losing Lucy, but she isn't in much of a hurry to get her back. She doesn't attempt to do any real parenting like Emma did.

There really are no stakes in the Henry/Jacinda/Lucy melodrama. Weaver and Alice could probably figure out how to break the curse themselves.

Edited November 6, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

There is no urgency.  Lucy doesn't seem at all bothered by the fact that she's living with the Evil Stepmother.  In Season 1, Henry was desperately pleading Emma to take him away from Regina.  Adult Henry found evidence of his false memories at the cemetery, but in the next episode, he's back to pursuing Jacinda.  Whereas when David got his false memories, it was a huge deal and so painful for Mary Margaret.  

Victoria just waits around trying one unsuccessful thing at a time, and then abandons that tact.  Ivy is apparently playing a long con but we have no idea what she's planning.  The Witch makes snide remarks while chained up doing nothing.  

In the summer press, let's see what A&E were saying

Quote

“Hyperion Heights... is being gentrified by Lady Tremaine who is an evil developer. In her mind, if she pushes the fairytale people out then they can’t find each other,” Kitsis noted. “Maybe that was one of the weaknesses of the first curse. If you keep everybody in the same place, after a while people are going to find each other and remember. If you spread them out and get rid of the neighborhoods, it’s a lot harder.”

First of all, that was not a "weakness" of the first curse.  No one remembered until Emma got there, and that was one person (Graham).  No one else remembered until the Curse broke.  If Victoria is all about resurrecting her daughter, why does she care?  From what we've seen so far, she doesn't really care that much about separating fairytale people.  We've never seen her actually doing it.

Quote

“This is an idea we’ve had for a few years, but when we sat down to write it last year we felt re-inspired. We felt reinvigorated because we were free from the six years of mythology and things we did before,” co-creator Eddy Kitsis revealed. “We could start going back to the thing we really loved which is, ‘Wouldn’t it be cool if we did this, we’ve never shown this and what’s this person’s backstory.’

What have they done so far this season which is super cool and couldn't have been done on the old show?  Tiana could have been from the Land of Untold Stories.  So could Ivy.  

Quote

“As you’ve seen, Henry leaves home. He’s in the new book. In terms of the relationship with Cinderella, I would say it’s in the vein of the epic romance of Snow and Charming did. ,” Kitsis teased.

I just included this one for laughs.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

She doesn't attempt to do any real parenting like Emma did.

Instead, she is parented by Lucy, much like the dynamic between Henry and Regina.

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

From what we've seen so far, she doesn't really care that much about separating fairytale people.  We've never seen her actually doing it.

This was such a big talking point over the summer interviews, that it feels misleading. Or A&E assumed they had done their part explaining things on the media, and didn't have to bother actually writing it.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Instead, she is parented by Lucy, much like the dynamic between Henry and Regina.

That's a huge reason why Jacinda as a character appears to be infantile. 

[ParadoxLost]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

 From what we've seen so far, she doesn't really care that much about separating fairytale people.  We've never seen her actually doing it.

I'm starting to think that this was a pre-emptive attempt to counteract the criticism they were expecting to get about why there was no fairytale community in Hyperion Heights.  So Lucy said that this was Victoria's motive.  And Roni decided that she was going to fight Victoria by staying.  And A&E were expecting to do a post S7E1 interview or twitter campaign that explained that the reason there didn't seem to be a HH fairy tale community was that Victoria had already driven most of them away. Then they expected to move on to other stuff that they are being too mysterious about so Victoria's motive and plan can be a shocking twist.

They just never had to deal with the (probably budget related) world building criticism they expected because their epic couple of Cinderella and Henry went over with a giant thud. 

[Shanna Marie]

21 hours ago, Camera One said:

If Victoria is all about resurrecting her daughter, why does she care?  From what we've seen so far, she doesn't really care that much about separating fairytale people.  We've never seen her actually doing it.

We've never seen her doing it, and we've never seen why that's bad, so there's no urgency. We needed to meet some people in flashback who were friends/lovers/family, and then see that they're on the verge of running into each other again in HH, except Victoria swoops in to evict one of them, and once that person is out of the neighborhood, we fear they'll never remember their true selves. I think that's where they were going with in this whole gentrifying thing -- not that they won't be able to contact people again, but that if they aren't around each other, they won't remember. The problem is that if we've never seen anyone together, we won't care that they're separated. We also don't seem to have that underlying sense of familiarity that we got with Curse 1, like David and Mary Margaret connecting on a deep level, resisting what the curse told them.

Which is the big problem (well, one of many) with Henry and Jacinda/Cinderella. We've never seen them together as a couple, so we don't feel any sense of loss at their separation. I guess the writers are relying on the fact that they call their relationship "epic" and they have a kid. But if we've never seen them in love and happy together, we can't feel like anything's wrong with them not being together. All we've seen in the past so far is them barely interacting. There was him teaching her to ride the motorcycle and trying to talk her out of killing the prince, and then we saw her considering murdering him. There's nothing keeping them apart in the past. And there's nothing keeping them apart in the present, aside from maybe disinterest. She's mostly dismissive of him. He doesn't seem to be making any effort to be with her. They don't miss each other when they're not together. And the writers don't even put them in proximity to each other. Henry has far more scenes with Roni and Ivy than with Jacinda.

Compare that to the Charmings -- we start with the TLK, see their marriage, see them together as a couple, see the birth of their child, their painful separation, her weeping over his body -- and that's just in the first episode. Then in the past as we flash back in their relationship, we see them form a connection when he saves her life and she sacrifices her revenge mission to save his, and then there's the moment when she puts on his ring, and you can tell she's starting to wish she could wear it and he's wishing that, too -- the glass slipper hardly lives up to that. But they still have to fight to be together, with him being engaged to Abigail and his marriage being the only reason George needs him, so George will kill him if he doesn't marry her, and then there's being hunted down, the sleeping curse, the war. Meanwhile, in the present, Regina comes up with a wife for him, and he gets fake memories of being married, even as he knows, deep down inside that he belongs with Mary Margaret. They desperately want to be together, but events keep forcing them apart. Henry and Jacinda/Cinderella don't act like they care much, one way or another, and there's no reason they couldn't be together if they wanted to be. This is where the centric model isn't helping. We've only had two episodes with flashbacks showing them together. Maybe we should have had another episode of them together before we had Tiana's story (which doesn't seem to be that important to the plot).

[KingOfHearts]

Confession: I don't totally hate S7 so far. Whenever the focus is taken off Jacinda, Lucy, and Victoria, the quality seems to go up. When that happens, it ranges from "tolerable" to "slightly intriguing". The Cinder family, with the exception of Ivy, is like a black hole of terribleness. They seem to be the source of most of the crap this season. I don't hate Lucy per se, but her over-confidence is a little annoying and her motivations are spotty at best. It's not that she's a child actor, either. Henry was great in S1 and 2A. Jacinda is in the running to be the worst character on the show, but we'll see how that plays out. Victoria is boring. She doesn't even seem to be the real Big Bad. She acts so powerful, yet Weaver and Ivy are probably manipulating the crap out of her. 

The other characters are passable when they're not interacting with the Cinders trio. There's a lot that could be improved with Henry's character, but he's not especially dumb or irritating. If Jacinda wasn't his love interest there'd be more to work with. Tiana's flashbacks weren't too bad, but her Jacinda beignet hijinks made her look really stupid. Ivy is the only one who can really work off of Jacinda/Lucy/Victoria, since she doesn't really give a flip. She's got her own agenda. Thankfully, Alice and Rogers have stayed clear away. Roni's even pretty watchable when she's not pushing Henry to date Jacinda. I have a very "meh" opinion about Weaver. He hangs around Victoria too much.

As a side note, I've noticed a pattern in the episode so far. Every other episode is focused on a past character, and every episode in between is about the HH characters.

Edited November 7, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/6/2017 at 9:19 AM, Camera One said:

That's a huge reason why Jacinda as a character appears to be infantile. 

I think the problem with Jacinda is similar to the problem they had with post-season 3 young Henry: The actor is visibly older than the character, and the writing is too young for the character. With Henry, we had a preteen character being written like he was a child and being played by a teenager.

They're writing Jacinda as though she's about 21 -- she's rooming with her BFF, they collect cash in a jar to pay the rent (instead of having a bank account like adults), she works in an entry-level fast-food job that she struggles to keep because she's often late and mouths off to the boss. But she can't be 21 because she has a ten (or so) year-old daughter. She's got to be at least in her late 20s -- and that's if she had a teen pregnancy. In her late 20s, she might still have to have a roommate as a single mom in an expensive city, but you'd think she'd at least be on the management track in a fast-food job or maybe have found something resembling a career, maybe have gone back to school. But the actress is in her late 30s and looks it (not saying she looks bad or that age is bad. She just looks her age). If the character is anywhere near the age of the actress, that would mean she was in her late 20s when she got pregnant, which means she was beyond the age when her education and early career would have been disrupted by an unplanned pregnancy. She's too old to be as adrift as she is, with no real ambition, seemingly no attempt to better herself or to create a better life for her daughter. We have a character who's probably supposed to be in her early 30s, written as though she's 21, played by an actress who looks like she's in her late 30s.

I know that her situation is courtesy of the curse, that the curse made her be where she is, but we haven't seen anything in the past to indicate that she's an entirely different person (like meek Mary Margaret vs. Bandit Snow), and although the curse seems to be weakening, given the number of people waking up, she doesn't seem to be pushing back. Victoria takes her child, and all she does is go on freelancer apps to try to raise the money to attend a dance recital. She hasn't gone to Legal Aid to get help, hasn't talked to Rogers about why the police let Victoria take Lucy (really, the police shouldn't have been involved in an adult custodial parent being missing for a couple of hours), hasn't gone to the media or had Henry write a blog post about how a prominent figure is treating her stepdaughter (if Jacinda wasn't allowed an education, that would also look bad for her). She only got to go to the dance recital because of Henry, only got to see Lucy on Halloween because of Ivy and because Lucy slipped away. It's like she's not even trying.

That not trying is probably the biggest problem with this season. Jacinda's not really trying. Lucy supposedly was desperate for Henry to help end the curse, but all she's done was go to him in the first place and then go find a piece of glass. I thought when she was trying to get to the haunted house that it would be something relevant to the story, like an excuse to visit a pivotal person or find evidence, but she apparently just wanted to visit a haunted house. She supposedly knows all the details from Henry's book and believes the neighborhood is full of fairytale characters, but she hasn't figured out that the dark-haired, blue-eyed detective with a missing hand and a British accent might be Hook under a cursed identity (you'd think he'd be prominent in Henry's book if Emma was in it). Henry isn't doing much of anything but sitting in the bar and moping. Victoria is wasting massive amounts of time and effort being petty and nasty instead of achieving her goal. Roni gives inspiring speeches but hasn't done much of anything. She was even trying to shut down Henry doing something. Our most active characters are Ivy, who's playing everyone; Rogers, who at least is digging up evidence and interviewing people; and Weaver, who carried out what was apparently Rumple's plan to get himself awakened.

[Hanahope]

On 11/7/2017 at 2:45 PM, Shanna Marie said:

That not trying is probably the biggest problem with this season. Jacinda's not really trying.

Yes, your post 1000% agree.  The whole plot line doesn't work on so many levels.  I also point out that treating Hyperion Heights like the insulated town of Storybrook is ridiculous.  These characters act like they can't better themselves or their circumstances because they are 'stuck' where they are just seems absurd.  

I was just really surprised that when most of the original actors were not going to return, they were doing this reboot. I understand the desire to keep a good show going, but this reboot is just really badly thought out.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Interview with Lana about her role in developing the reboot, presented without comment because I can't even. I don't think there are any spoilers for future episodes, except for the vaguest bit about the next episode, less than you'd get from the promo, and it's in the last paragraph if you want to stop reading there.

Quote

And, as Horowitz and Kitsis promised her when they pitched their idea for season seven, there should be a love interest and a happy ending coming as well.

I'm curious why Lana's so bent on getting Regina a Love Interest. Wouldn't it be better to maintain a more "maternal" role in the reboot? She wants it all--to be both the wise matron of HH, and the hip attractive bartender.

With the way A&E have been writing romance lately, I'm guessing Roni will fall in love while she's mixing a cocktail for her new Love Interest. And it will be her True Love Soul Mate. Part of Robin's soul went to him when he was conceived. He was born in a Realm where Time Moves Differently, so he's all grown up and ready to fall in love with Regina now. :-p

[Camera One]

Continuing the discussion about that interview with Lana in THR posted in the Media thread.  I'm just floored by what she said.  Just when I was starting to put Regina in my top 2 favorite characters of this show.

Quote

"I love creating with Adam and Eddy. I think we've done an incredible job over the last six years, so I have a lot of faith in that relationship and I really believe in them," she tells The Hollywood Reporter. "They're incredible communicators. I can call them at any time. I love that I already have this beautiful history with my bosses. It's not only the personal relationships but also the creative collaboration that we have been a part of for the last six years, to continue that and to continue telling some really cool, different stories was all part of the intrigue for me and my interest in returning."

The way she describes it, she's on par with A&E and the Writing team.  Though if she truly wielded that much power, it would explain how Snow, Henry and Emma were sacrificed on the altar of Regina and why the show became Once Upon The Evil Queen.

Quote

 "Lana is always up for challenges and pushing herself. That's what makes her such a great actress," they said via email. "She is always going for something new."

On any other show, Roni would be a nameless bartender making small-talk with the customers.  How is that challenging at all? 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

On any other show, Roni would be a nameless bartender making small-talk with the customers.  How is that challenging at all? 

There's nothing juicy or particularly complex about Roni. Lana has gotten some challenging and elaborate material to portray in the past, but not so in S7.

[andromeda331]

How challenging is it when your character gets everything she wants? What a love interest? Well, he just appears and their already in love. Wants Henry well wave a wand and all his problems with Regina disappear. Doesn't she ever really want to challenge her acting skills? A real redemption would have done that. Really working on Regina's relationship with Henry. Navigating a new relationship. 

[Camera One]

I think this quote from Andrew West describing when he filmed the Season 6 finale encapsulates the planning for this show.

Quote

"I'm shooting a scene where I'm with my daughter in fairy-tale land in a cave, and something's chasing us. Nobody has any idea what's going on. The director of the episode, nobody really knew. They were just like, 'We're just playing like something's going to kill you guys, and we'll figure out where this is going later.' It's tricky, but super exciting. Then when we found out that the show got picked up for season seven, we all came back up here a few months ago, and that's when we started to dig in. But, still, a lot about this character and about the storyline is just getting revealed week-to-week as scripts come in, too."

Edited November 10, 2017 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

On 11/1/2017 at 9:53 PM, Camera One said:

We still haven't seen Victoria evict anybody... we assume it because that was what A&E pushed in interviews. 

Lucy told Henry that Victoria was evicting people (I think in the first episode).

[KingOfHearts]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Quote

We still haven't seen Victoria evict anybody... we assume it because that was what A&E pushed in interviews. 

Lucy told Henry that Victoria was evicting people (I think in the first episode).

I think the keyword here is "seen". The characters can tell us she's evicting John Smith and Jane Doe, but we don't know the circumstances, how she's doing it, or why. 

[Shanna Marie]

I found it amusing that the promo they ran during the noon news today on the ABC affiliate was all about "what if you found out you were the most feared villain of all time" (or something like that) about Roni discovering she's Regina. I'm not sure they thought that through, because it's basically saying that the current villain is weak in comparison to a character who's no longer a villain or a threat. If Regina is the most hated or feared ever, then that means they've been on a downhill slope since season one (which they have). We also get back to that icky sense of the most feared villain ever suffering no consequences, while lesser villains got punished or killed.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

We also get back to that icky sense of the most feared villain ever suffering no consequences, while lesser villains got punished or killed.

A&E think their writing is so great that they could believably redeem Satan. Anything less and it wouldn't so "radical" and "progressive". I'm not saying that Regina is the devil, but the writers and marketing like to stress she's the greatest evil to ever evil so that her redemption arc is sooo powerful and inspiring. As Henry put it, "she's come so far!" While making the Evil Queen a hero would be a great feat I'm not sure would even be possible, that's not what they did. All they did was slap the label on her.

It really aggravates me when they tout their writing as gray and up for interpretation. They never let viewers come to their own conclusions. All reactions are pre-planned and expected. Everything is manipulated to draw out some sort of emotion whether it makes sense or not. For example, if the writers intentionally made Rumpbelle controversial or ambiguous, and wants fans to draw their own conclusions, they wouldn't have stuck us with that "happy ending" montage in 7x04. They were most obviously attempting to get us to cry and send Belle off with a tearful kiss on the forehead. Yes, character deaths are a big deal, but the only character who'd give a flip is Rumple - the man who constantly betrays the protagonists.

Edited November 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

For example, if the writers intentionally made Rumpbelle controversial or ambiguous, and wants fans to draw their own conclusions, they wouldn't have stuck us with that "happy ending" montage in 7x04. They were most obviously attempting to get us to cry send Belle off with a tearful kiss on the forehead. Yes, character deaths are a big deal, but the only character who'd give a flip is Rumple - the man who constantly betrays the protagonists.

His "redemption" ended up being even more shallow, and less believable, than Regina's, since it mostly happened offscreen. He made one good decision -- a relatively minor one, in the grand scheme of things, and something he's done before, several times. But he always, always, backslides. He can make a good decision, vow that he's changed, for real this time, and literally five minutes later come across something that tempts him, and all his good intentions vanish. So, what's different about this time? Whatever it was, it happened entirely offscreen. We pick up a year later, with him apparently not having been tempted to evil or getting more power or torturing Hook again, something he's never been able to do, even when he wasn't the Dark One and had all the darkness sucked out of his heart and had just experienced being a pure hero. We're supposed to believe he managed it this time without seeing any of that process? And he sustained it for however many years, until Belle died of old age? Did he keep a rubber band on his wrist to snap when he had an evil thought? I'm sure it was entirely unintentional, but the fact that a True Love's Kiss didn't break the curse, even though they'd already established that it could work and that he and Belle had the potential, and the only thing holding him back was him not seeing it as a curse, suggests to me that maybe he hadn't changed as much as he seemed, that maybe he was doing sneaky things on the side, and he didn't really want to not be the Dark One anymore. How long did that good intention last after her death? Is he so sure he'd go to the same place as her in the afterlife? Without her nagging him to be good, would he enjoy his power again?

Back to that interview, it makes me wonder if that situation had something to do with JMo not being interested in renewing her contract. It sounds a lot like the situation from her time on House, when another actress on the show got cozy with the producers and started suggesting storylines for her character, to the point she more or less took over the show, and JMo's character got written out. Even though they wanted her to stay on this show, she was in a similar situation, where the storylines kept going to someone else, even when they started out being about her character, and her character wasn't ever allowed to do much.

I'm still wondering what their Plan A was when they thought they'd still have Emma. The way they left it at the end of the season, there was a lot of ambiguity. We just knew there was a curse, Henry didn't have his memories, and his family needed him. But there were a lot of other plots they could have done from that springboard. Did they always plan Hyperion Heights, or was there some other way his family needed him, like going on a quest with Emma, Hook, and Regina to save the (offscreen) Charmings? Was Hook always going to be Wish Hook, or did that just come about as a way to keep Colin without breaking up Emma and Hook?