A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Shanna Marie]

24 minutes ago, superloislane said:

I see some praise for the new actor playing Henry but at the same time, Henry didn't really have a personality so I doubt it was too difficult for the new actor to take over.

It's like I said after the Pan/Henry switch when people were praising Jared for playing a good Pan but were surprised by how bland Robbie Kaye was as Henry. Pan was an actual character. He had traits and mannerisms, so it was easy to step into the part and play it. There was no "there" to Henry, so even a talented actor had absolutely nothing to work with to play Henry. There was nothing to latch onto. He was totally defined by his relationships, so as long as he said "Mom" to Regina or Emma, we had to accept that he was Henry. That's the problem with adult Henry. He's Henry because he calls Regina "Mom" and others call him Henry, not because of anything he is or does that makes us know that he's Henry.

[Bawa]

I've watched this show and bought the videos all along...but I am now SO lost I don't feel like I'm watching the same show.WHO is the new "boss dog" woman...who has thank god just been killed off.....why is Regina running a bar?How do they explain where everyone ELSE has gone?Why are all these old characters playing "new" roles?I feel like I missed a whole prep season.How do I catch up?Why does anyone take a successful show and suddenly run it off the tracks the way they just did with this and THEN announce there will be NO tying up of loose ends??

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I've watched this show and bought the videos all along...but I am now SO lost I don't feel like I'm watching the same show.WHO is the new "boss dog" woman...who has thank god just been killed off.....why is Regina running a bar?How do they explain where everyone ELSE has gone?Why are all these old characters playing "new" roles?I feel like I missed a whole prep season.How do I catch up?Why does anyone take a successful show and suddenly run it off the tracks the way they just did with this and THEN announce there will be NO tying up of loose ends??

*inhales*

The  "boss dog" woman is Victoria, who is also Lady Tremaine (the evil stepmother from Cinderella) and Rapunzel. She's from an alternate Enchanted Forest where another Cinderella lives. Henry goes there as an adult while traveling the realms on his motorcycle, then bumps into Cinderella who is on the way to murder a prince because his men killed her father or something. Henry stops her, and they fall in love. However, Lady Tremaine is out to resurrect one of her daughters, Anastasia, by any means necessary. Henry and Cinderella join forces with a resistance against her, while also summoning Regina and an alternate version of Hook, who is from the Wish Realm in S6. Henry and Cinderella get married and have a daughter named Lucy. After all this goes on, Lady Tremaine's other daughter, Drizella, wants to get revenge on her mother for ignoring her. So, she gangs up with Mother Gothel, (who raped the alternate Hook and imprisoned Lady Tremaine for years in a tower) and 8 years later proceeds to cast the Dark Curse. Within the curse, Lady Tremaine believes she cast it and her cursed identity is Victoria, a wealthy land developer. 

Regina owns a bar because her cursed identity is Roni, a sassy maternal garage band bartender. The alternate Hook is a cop named Rogers, Rumple is a detective named Weaver, Henry is still Henry for some reason. Cinderella is Jacinda, a day-drinking single mom who works at a fast food restaurant. Drizella is Ivy, her mother's assistant. All the other characters from the show are living in Storybrooke, except for Belle, who died from realizing what show she was in.

Edited March 3, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's like I said after the Pan/Henry switch when people were praising Jared for playing a good Pan but were surprised by how bland Robbie Kaye was as Henry. Pan was an actual character. He had traits and mannerisms, so it was easy to step into the part and play it. There was no "there" to Henry, so even a talented actor had absolutely nothing to work with to play Henry. There was nothing to latch onto. He was totally defined by his relationships, so as long as he said "Mom" to Regina or Emma, we had to accept that he was Henry. That's the problem with adult Henry. He's Henry because he calls Regina "Mom" and others call him Henry, not because of anything he is or does that makes us know that he's Henry.

To me, that situation was different.  Robbie Kay as Henry didn't convincingly show innocence.  He still seemed evil.  That could have been helped by subtly changing his appearance, so I don't really blame the actor per se.  Or even having him speak in an American accent.  He actually looked like an innocent boy in "Heroes: Reborn", so he can definitely do it.  Jared was able to add a bit of edge and menacing coldness to his performance which made him more convincing as a villain.  Which is generally easier to play.  That's why actors like playing bad guys.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Whook is the only character with an actual character arc, and it's only because he's not Original Hook.  He's actually a new character played by the same actor. 

This may be heresy, but in a way, Whook is a more interesting character than Original Hook. They have the same backstory, up to a point, but Whook has his own storyline, unlike Original Hook, who was mostly a prop in Emma's story -- the love interest. He did have a good redemption arc, but for the most part that amounted to his one episode a year in which he was forced to face one of his former victims and feel bad about himself and the times when he gave Emma encouraging speeches. Otherwise, his big arcs ended up being about someone else. The whole heart/hat story was really about Rumple and Belle, with Hook just a pawn in it, since he ended up having nothing to do with resolving the situation and it ultimately didn't change anything for him. He was a plot device for the Underworld story, providing a reason for everyone to go there, where the story then became about Regina and Rumple's families, and the fact that Hook had died and was resurrected was totally forgotten.

Whook at least has the goal of looking for his daughter and breaking the curse, and that's given him some opportunities to interact with different characters, like Zelena and Robyn, instead of mostly being isolated with Emma. His relationship with Rumple seems to be entirely different than what we saw for the previous five seasons. Meanwhile, Rogers has an actual job, unlike Original Hook up until the last 30 seconds of the original series, and he has the storyline of first finding Eloise and then figuring out what's going on.

It's also fun seeing how Colin plays him as a different character. Original Hook came across as older than his years, that kind of sadder but wiser air. Whook comes across as younger and more innocent. He seems more at peace with himself and less guilt-stricken. I guess he worked all that out a long time ago while bringing up Alice.

[Camera One]

It is really quite interesting that Whook is more his own character, and Rumple/Weaver is actually his prop rather than the other way around.  He has his own goal independent of a significant other.  

Though I also had a bad thought as I was thinking over Whook's history.  If he was planning to eliminate and impersonate Real Hook in the second episode of this season, he may have slept with Emma in Storybrooke while masquerading as the other Hook, which is sort of icky.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

43 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

This may be heresy, but in a way, Whook is a more interesting character than Original Hook. They have the same backstory, up to a point, but Whook has his own storyline, unlike Original Hook, who was mostly a prop in Emma's story -- the love interest. 

I had the same thought last night as I was watching the episode. WHook has become more interesting than Hook Prime was by the of Season 6. Hook slowly turned into Emma's cheerleader, though he never went to the depths of Robin/Snow/Emma in Regina's case. He at least interacted with other characters like Elsa, Ariel, Jasmine, Nemo, etc.. Hook was the most interesting in Seasons 2 to 3A. 3B was the beginning of mopey Hook. They made all his storylines too angsty and guilt-ridden (and yes A&E--bleak) from then on. Fun, flirty Hook was gone forever. I did enjoy him in the Camelot arc, and Colin was fantastic as Dark Hook, no matter what you think of the plot. I don't have much to say about Season 5B for Hook, except I did enjoy his underworld adventure with his frenemy Arthur. Most of the regulars here know how much I hated the way he was treated by the Charmings in S6. I almost stopped shipping CS until I decided to not let the writing ruin something I enjoyed and just decided to ignore S6. :-p I can't say I'm satisfied with him being a deputy sheriff in Storybrooke for his apparent Happy Ending.

WHook, on the other hand, is nobody's prop or cheerleader. While he is broody too, I guess the parental storyline keeps him from being pulled under with the angst. Colin is also playing WHook/Rogers as a more gentler soul, as if being a parent has somehow softened and matured him. I don't know if that was in the writing or it was all Colin (I tend to credit Colin, tbh). At this point, WHook is a fully realized character with a separate personality and motivations. And it helps that Colin has chemistry with practically a rock. So, he brings up the level of every scene he is an active part of. I'm really happy for Colin. He got to play a wide range of interesting variations of Hook over the course of the series, and he seemed to have truly enjoyed it. The writers should have given him a more prominent role this season. 

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If he was planning to eliminate and impersonate Real Hook in the second episode of this season, he may have slept with Emma in Storybrooke while masquerading as the other Hook, which is sort of icky.

He was hoping for a TLK from Emma. I doubt he would have actually slept with her, considering his own history. He felt guilty and changed his mind pretty quickly before he went through with the plan. That was also the episode where he transitioned from "buffoon" Whook into a real character. I'm not sure how much the writers thought through all the details. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Wasn't there some rumor that the actress who played Lady Tremaine was cut a few months ago?  It wasn't surprising that it turned out to be true.  The fact that the actress didn't do an exit interview suggests that the character exit was not planned all along.  Hopefully, knowing that the show was cancelled and it would never have been a multiple year gig took the sting out of it.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yeah, they could use the same actor to play Wish Henry.  He could possibly be a good actor.  It's really hard to tell with what he has gotten to play thus far.

He was very good on Walking Dead.  I don't kow wht happened.  This show probably stalled the career he could have had because now its clear that as good as he was on Walking Dead, he isn't one of those actors that can rise above the material.

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Though I also had a bad thought as I was thinking over Whook's history.  If he was planning to eliminate and impersonate Real Hook in the second episode of this season, he may have slept with Emma in Storybrooke while masquerading as the other Hook, which is sort of icky.

Which is exactly what Gothel did to him

[Camera One]

In the wake of Victoria's sad tragic death, I rewatched part of the Season 7 premiere to see if I would like her more.  I mean, I almost felt a twinge of sympathy for her this week.  But watching a scene from the premiere again, she still grated like nails on a chalkboard.  So I don't think this season will have much rewatch value.  

[Camera One]

With Victoria gone, that whole gentrification premise of the entire season is pretty much completely gone (though it has been ignored for many episodes now, anyway).  The original reason why Henry, Roni and Rogers were working together is also gone.  Is there still anyone who cares to destroy Jacinda and Sabine's success with the food truck?  It's rare to find Writers who systematically dismantle their own setup and make it irrelevant in 10 episodes or less.

[KingOfHearts]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

With Victoria gone, that whole gentrification premise of the entire season is pretty much completely gone (though it has been ignored for many episodes now, anyway).  The original reason why Henry, Roni and Rogers were working together is also gone.  Is there still anyone who cares to destroy Jacinda and Sabine's success with the food truck?  It's rare to find Writers who systematically dismantle their own setup and make it irrelevant in 10 episodes or less.

I'm sure in a few episodes the Coat Hangers will either be redeemed or killed, and some bigger threat will be the ultimate Big Bad. Gothel's aunt Mother Goose or something.

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

the ultimate Big Bad. Gothel's aunt Mother Goose or something.

That would seriously be more entertaining than what we're going to get.

[KingOfHearts]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That would seriously be more entertaining than what we're going to get.

She will be joined by Miss Muffet and The Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe. 

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe. 

I was just thinking about her!  She could be running a tenement building in Hyperion Heights.  I mean, I love how this show is able to deal with some serious social issues we have around the country.

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Colin is also playing WHook/Rogers as a more gentler soul, as if being a parent has somehow softened and matured him. I don't know if that was in the writing or it was all Colin (I tend to credit Colin, tbh).

Yeah, I'm inclined to credit Colin because if they'd been deliberately writing to give this impression, as heavyhanded as the writing has been this season, there would have been painfully obvious dialogue about it, like Regina making a quip about seeing the softer side of Hook or Zelena, during the conversation in which he talks about being a parent, making a remark about what parenthood did to both Hooks (oh, wait, that would have required referring to Baby Jones). Look how many lines there have been about Regina/Roni being "cool." They haven't been willing to just let her actions, attitude, and wardrobe speak for themselves. They have to tell us.

The portrayal may possibly have been influenced by the fact that Colin had a newborn daughter while developing this character. He had a lot of his own emotions to work with, and he mentioned that influence in the scene when he held baby Alice, that he was thinking of his own baby daughter. It's not just having experiences of parenthood to draw upon, but all those emotions being very new and raw and right on the surface.

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm sure in a few episodes the Coat Hangers will either be redeemed or killed, and some bigger threat will be the ultimate Big Bad. Gothel's aunt Mother Goose or something.

Little Bo Peep being a crime boss was one of the few things I thought was actually clever in the last few seasons, so I would probably be ok with that.

[jhlipton]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:48 PM, Rumsy4 said:

The livestream kept cutting out, so I may have missed something. But did Victoria really have to be so laughably cruel to her daughter Ivy? It was on-the-nose cringeworthy.

And then she sacrificed herself because she LOVED Ivy so much.  Yeah, right!

On 3/2/2018 at 8:24 PM, CCTC said:

I thought she was at her most interesting the first few episodes they played her more when she befriended Henry and had those shades of gray (or at least pretended to not be pure evil).  It would be nice if they returned to that.  

Definitely!

On 3/3/2018 at 4:38 PM, Rumsy4 said:

I'm not sure how much the writers thought through all the details. 

Isn't that one of the mottoes of this show?

[Rumsy4]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

On 3/3/2018 at 7:38 PM, Rumsy4 said:

Colin is also playing WHook/Rogers as a more gentler soul, as if being a parent has somehow softened and matured him. I don't know if that was in the writing or it was all Colin (I tend to credit Colin, tbh).

Yeah, I'm inclined to credit Colin because if they'd been deliberately writing to give this impression, as heavyhanded as the writing has been this season, there would have been painfully obvious dialogue about it

Lol. Very true. I do wish Colin had incorporated more of Old WHook's mannerisms. There was a bit of that is the scene where he was trying to find Memento Mori using the map. But otherwise, he's toned down the deliberately exaggerated mannerisms. I think he might do well in comedy. 

[Camera One]

This season, we have been wondering about how characters don't look like they're aging.  Perhaps this was totally intentional and this theme of agelessness in Season 7 is inspired by the "Tangled" movie, which was all about Mother Gothel's attempt to not age.  Could it be possible that at the Last Supper, everyone except Henry accidentally ate some hair?

I also found something in the "Healing Incantation" song from "Tangled" which will probably play a huge role this season.  Mother Gothel sings, "Make the clock reverse / Bring back what once was mine / Heal what has been hurt / Change the Fates' design".  This means one of her goals will be messing with time and turning back the clock.  Notice the word ONCE is in the lyrics, and this verse was all about Time, so what do you get?  Once Upon a Time.  It really highlights the brilliance of A&E, since Mother Gothel's song is actually a tribute to this show, and that's why she was chosen as a major character for its final season.  

Edited March 6, 2018 by Camera One

[daxx]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

This season, we have been wondering about how characters don't look like they're aging.  Perhaps this was totally intentional and this theme of agelessness in Season 7 is inspired by the "Tangled" movie, which was all about Mother Gothel's attempt to not age.  Could it be possible that at the Last Supper, everyone except Henry accidentally ate some hair?

I also found something in the "Healing Incantation" song from "Tangled" which will probably play a huge role this season.  Mother Gothel sings, "Make the clock reverse / Bring back what once was mine / Heal what has been hurt / Change the Fates' design".  This means one of her goals will be messing with time and turning back the clock.  Notice the word ONCE is in the lyrics, and this verse was all about Time, so what do you get?  Once Upon a Time.  It really highlights the brilliance of A&E, since Mother Gothel's song is actually a tribute to this show, and that's why she was chosen as a major character for its final season.  

I know this is tongue in cheek, but I imagine some variation of this will likely be true.

[Mitch]

On 3/3/2018 at 5:01 PM, KingOfHearts said:

All the other characters from the show are living in Storybrooke, except for Belle, who died from realizing what show she was in.

Thank you for making me spit out my Diet Coke all over the screen on that last, unsuspected line!

[Shanna Marie]

The weird aging/not aging thing may seem like a minor quibble, but it's that kind of detail that's sinking this season. If the story's engaging enough, then you might not notice stuff like that. But this story isn't engaging enough to make you turn off your brain, and there are so many "Huh?" moments that throw you out of the story.

Just look at the first couple of episodes of the season: We start with the baffling justification for Henry leaving to go realm hopping (he's upset that he isn't in a storybook?), then there's ready access to a magic bean to be used for frivolous purposes, when previously one was valuable enough for Hook to trade everything he owns for one, and there were none in Storybrooke (maybe that's David's big cash crop -- he found one little plant left over from Regina burning the whole field). Then we see Henry aged enough to be played by a different actor, but he's still somehow got fuel for his motorcycle. But then we see Henry with an 8-10 year-old daughter he apparently had with the woman we saw him meeting earlier, and Henry hasn't changed at all in all those years. And then there's Regina, who looks the same with 30-something Henry as she did when Henry was a teenager. At the end of the episode, Henry has a cell phone that still somehow has power.

Then in the next episode, we see teen Henry with Hook and Emma, and then adult Henry with them, and they look the same, even wearing the same clothes. It's even more confusing when you remember that in season one, we had a similar situation, with Emma looking the same age as her parents. Is that what's going on here? But in season one, it was explained in the first episode that there was a curse that froze the Charmings in time, while Emma grew up normally, so we understood that this situation was weird. It was central to the story. We get no such explanation here, and we don't know if it matters to the plot or if we're supposed to ignore it. Meanwhile, there's Henry what must be many more years later, and he looks the same as he does in the flashbacks. Is flashback Henry 23 or so years old, meaning Emma is 41 and pregnant, and therefore in his early 30s in the "present" with his daughter? If Emma and Hook are just now having a child when Emma's in her 40s, does that mean they've been putting it off, or have they been trying and having fertility problems? And Henry looks a bit less sympathetic if he chooses to stay and look for a girl he's met briefly over being around for his family when his mother is having a reasonably high-risk pregnancy.

As we go on, we learn more and more about the amount of time that's passing and see some characters who have grown up while other characters aren't changing at all. Like with this latest episode, seeing Robyn being 18 while Zelena hasn't changed and is still wearing the same clothes, and that's at the time Lucy was born, and Zelena still doesn't age during the time Lucy ages. But if Robyn, who was born when Henry was about 13, is 18 when Lucy is born, that makes Henry 31, so Emma would be 49 then. How long is that since Henry first met Ella? If it's only been a few years, then that makes Emma's pregnancy even more of a big deal, and the odds are good that she might need help. She could end up on bed rest by the end, and she's got a one-handed husband.

If you're spending half the episode doing mental math, then you're not that invested in the story, and these questions are more interesting to me than the identity of the glove and the coat hangers.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

If you're spending half the episode doing mental math, then you're not that invested in the story, and these questions are more interesting to me than the identity of the glove and the coat hangers.

It's not just the timelines, either. The mechanics of the world itself don't make sense. Gothel can do her magical rituals in a land without magic, for instance. We're also not re-introduced to the characters in any meaningful way. Everything is written like we're supposed to have knowledge of the past six seasons. All the character development happens off-screen. The writers don't stick with any particular storyline. This season is all over the place, juggling the many different characters that appear and disappear at random.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Gothel can do her magical rituals in a land without magic, for instance. 

Remember, if you just BELIEVE, magic can work (stands up in front of crowd at the city fountain).

I've been trying to figure that out.  Is she only able to do magic because of Anastasia?  So Anastasia filled the resurrection amulet with magic, so that's how Gothel summoned Ivy into the circle?  

[Rumsy4]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Is she only able to do magic because of Anastasia? 

She made a plant grow when she was still pretending to be Victoria's prisoner. SThe Dragon could do magic in the Land w/o Magic. So, maybe she can too.

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

She made a plant grow when she was still pretending to be Victoria's prisoner. 

I think that was because of Jacinda's wish or hope or tears or whatever she was doing which got those flowers to grow.  

In hindsight, was pretending to be Victoria's prisoner for years the dumbest villain plan ever, or what.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In hindsight, was pretending to be Victoria's prisoner for years the dumbest villain plan ever, or what.

Seriously!! 

[Camera One]

Very little of the new Curse makes sense.  Why did Gothel need to have Drizella cast the Curse?  Before this season, we might have said that Gothel wouldn't want to sacrifice the one she loved the most, but Drizella just used Regina to cast the Curse, presumably at the advice of Gothel, so couldn't Gothel have just enact the Curse herself and then have Tremaine think she cast it?  Gothel could have accomplished what she did accomplish without being a prisoner, or am I missing something?  The Coven was together in the Disenchanted Forest, so why not just have them all be awake in Hyperion Heights?  Then, there would be no need to gather the coat hangers again.  No one was dealing with the Henry situation.  I mean, did Gothel want him to come to Hyperion Heights or not?  His presence kickstarted the chain of events that led to Gothel becoming free.  Was that all planned or just random?  Is this all going to make sense by the end of this season?  

Edited March 7, 2018 by Camera One

[daxx]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Is this all going to make sense by the end of this season?  

Eddy: your questions are pointless! Muah ha ha. 

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

In hindsight, was pretending to be Victoria's prisoner for years the dumbest villain plan ever, or what.

Yeah, I still don't see the point of that. Things happen because that's what they need for that episode, not because they make sense from the characters' perspective. They needed the conversations between Gothel and Victoria to add intrigue, and they wanted to fake us out about who Rogers was looking for, but they didn't seem to have bothered figuring out why Gothel would have done any of that in the first place. I know she was tricking Victoria into waking Anastasia using Lucy, but I don't get why she needed the curse for that or why she needed to be a prisoner. I guess maybe the curse might have been necessary to have Lucy believe and then lose belief for the spell to work, and going to a non-storybook world was essential for Lucy to not believe, but that still seems like a convoluted path. We're at "open a bar, have a drink special, and hope the Savior comes by and cries to the bartender" levels of complicated scheming.

Thinking more about the ages, it gets even crazier when you do the math for all the characters, and the weird thing is that in Hyperion Heights, the characters are treated as though they're the age of the actors (or younger) rather than the age the characters would be. For instance, Regina must be at least 8 years older than Snow, since she was an adult when Snow was 10. If Emma ended up being the same age as Snow, due to the curse, then that means Regina was at least 40 when Robyn was born, so she's about 58 when Lucy is born and at least 66 at the time of the HH curse. But Roni is treated like some hip early 40-something. Zelena is at least a couple of years older than Regina, so we've got another 40-something pregnancy, and she's pushing 70 while teaching a spin class and planning a wedding involving a big white gown. If Whook is actually aging after his age was reset, and if Hook Prime was about Emma's age, then he was probably (given the latest time info with Robyn's age) in his late 40s when the reset happened, so probably in his mid-late 50s in Hyperion Heights. He should be contemporaries with Weaver, not a protege. And yet Rogers is treated like he's in his early 30s, maybe, the eager and ambitious cop who's made detective. Even if he's frozen at that age and not aging beyond it (just a handwave that would explain a lot, not something the show has even hinted at), late 40s would be old for making detective, especially if he's supposed to be eager and ambitious.

Meanwhile, there's Ella, who was in her teens when Alice was born, and Alice seems to be in her 20s in the present. If she's the same age as Robyn, and therefore about 18 around the time Ella and Henry are getting together, that means Ella is already in her mid-late 30s, and so is probably in her 40s at the time of the curse and in HH. But she and Tiana are treated like they're in their early 20s, with their fast-food jobs and rent jar, even though Jacinda would have been in her 30s when her daughter was born, so it's not like having a baby interrupted her education or her early stages of a career. If Robyn is 18 when Lucy is born, that makes Henry 31 then, so he's 39-40 now.

Basically, they're trying to do in this season what they did with the ages in season one, but without the explanations from season one. If you want your characters to have tween or teen children but you want the parents to be in their 30s, then you need teen pregnancies. If you want the adult children and their parents to all be in their 30s, you need some kind of time freeze on the adults while the children grow up. You can't have characters having children while in their 30s and 40s but still looking like they're in their 30s and 40s while their children are teenagers or older. You definitely can't have characters having children while in their 30s or 40s and still looking like they're in their 30s or 40s when their children are in their 20s, 30s, or 40s.

[KingOfHearts]

The excessive world hopping has really watered down the OUAT universe. Just in S7 alone, we've had: The Land With Less Magic, Disenchanted Forest, No-Wonderland, Paradise Falls, Zelena's Farm World, The You-Wish Realm, and wherever Belle and Rumple were when Gideon went to Hogwarts. Magic beans are a popular commodity. Who needs a curse? Just bean-me-over-Scotty to Storybrooke and toss Henry over the town line. Problem solved. 

"I'm sorry, this isn't Wonderland #2487. This is Wondereland #573, where Alice is a homicidal maniac who got cursed as a barista."

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The excessive world hopping has really watered down the OUAT universe.

I think it's more that there's bad world hopping, since they're hopping realms less often than I'd kind of hoped when we heard that Henry was heading out to explore the realms. Their universe made some kind of sense when there was the fairy tale world, Neverland, and Wonderland. The black-and-white horror movie world was an interesting concept, but I'm still not sure I like it. It got a bit weird when there was the Victorian Literature World, which was distinct from real Victorian England (and we had both). It got even weirder when they added in Jazz Age World and implied that Dorothy wasn't from our Kansas but was from a distinct Depression Era Kansas World.

This season, we have the original versions of all these places, plus there's the Wishverse, which apparently has its own multiverse, and then there's a new fairy tale realm, plus a totally different Wonderland. It might have worked better, if, say, there was still just the one Wonderland, and they made a joke about how Alice is a rather common name, so maybe there's more than one Alice who happened to have visited Wonderland. The Wishverse still doesn't quite work for me in intersecting with all these other worlds and having a history, but I guess I just have to turn my brain off there and go with it.

The real problem is that they use the multiverse as a crutch to give them a quick and easy way to add something to the story, without really developing it, and it's now way too easy to travel between realms or even universes. That used to be difficult. Now it's like commuting.

[ParadoxLost]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Then in the next episode, we see teen Henry with Hook and Emma, and then adult Henry with them, and they look the same, even wearing the same clothes. It's even more confusing when you remember that in season one, we had a similar situation, with Emma looking the same age as her parents. Is that what's going on here? But in season one, it was explained in the first episode that there was a curse that froze the Charmings in time, while Emma grew up normally, so we understood that this situation was weird. It was central to the story. We get no such explanation here, and we don't know if it matters to the plot or if we're supposed to ignore it.

This is what takes all the fun out of the show for me.  It ruins any desire to speculate or engage or get interested in what happens next.

[Camera One]

Some interview bits with Mekia Cox (Tiana).

Quote

“I went back and I watched the movie again just so I could get more familiar with the role,” she told us. “But as I talked to [executive producers] Eddy [Kitsis] and Adam [Horowitz], they were taking bits and pieces from the [movie] and then just in general the fairy tale story of Princess and the Frog, and then putting their own spin on things as they normally do.

“Normally I do a little more preparation on my own, to sort of discover for myself what the character’s backstory would be, but this time they had so much already there that I didn’t exactly have to do that,” Mekia continued. “For me the preparation was moreso allowing myself not to do my normal preparation, and knowing these guys have been working on this show for six years now. They’ve got me and they’ve got this character, and I just have to trust them.”

Is that another way of saying she had throw everything she knew about Tiana out the window, LOL?

Quote

“It was a lot for me,” she told us, “because at the beginning of the week, I’d be in Vancouver and then half the week I’d have to fly to Chicago. It was a lot of back and forth for me, so eventually it does sort of start to wear on you. Just the fact that I get to do my passion is what keeps me going. You’re doing it on two separate shows.

“I was excited for it for sure,” Mekia added, “but I did realize there were certain times, for example one of the directors on Med asked me to lower my register, and I realized I had jumped into being Tiana. Sabine’s a little higher in register than Robin is. Little things like that I had to remind myself of when going back and forth.”

Tiana has a register?  I suppose maybe she was seen less in 7A because she was flying back and forth?  When did she officially leave the other show?

Quote

Did she take anything from Robin Charles into Tiana, especially considering the outstanding work and complex storyline that she was able to put together in Chicago Med season 2? Although both are strong women, there’s not much else common between them.

“I would say they’re completely separate,” Mekia explained. “Robin is very near and dear to me, and what I went through was somewhat traumatic going through all the scenes on the balcony and it’s like, you know you’re acting but your body doesn’t. It almost thinks it’s real life so going through all those emotions and all that made me have to channel a little more about what it’s like to have this illness.

“I have not experienced anything like that with Tiana. What’s fun about Tiana is she’s sort of a leader and a warrior so I get to play this swords and things like that. I don’t put them in the same category at all.”

This interview is quite amusing.  She talks about "all those emotions" about the other show, and "I have not experienced anything like that with Tiana".  What a surprise.  I would have thought standing around doing nothing would be really emotional.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

What’s fun about Tiana is she’s sort of a leader and a warrior

“sort of” being the key words. One day she’s walking around the bayou wearing rich outfits; another day she’s leading an ill-defined resistance against the king; next we know, she’s the queen.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

She's only one level up from a Granny-level character because she does nothing when it isn't her centric.  She's barely even a supporting character.  

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is what takes all the fun out of the show for me.  It ruins any desire to speculate or engage or get interested in what happens next.

Yeah, there's not much point in speculating when you don't know what's meaningful and what isn't -- is the lack of aging by some characters related to the story, or not?

In season one, it was laid out pretty clearly, with some good age/time stamps. It was Emma's 28th birthday, and Henry was 10. Emma scoffed at the idea that Mary Margaret could be her mother because they were the same age. But Henry said that was because the curse froze time. In the flashbacks, we see that Snow and Charming really are Emma's parents, and there really was a curse, so that no one in the story (at that time) other than Emma and Henry has changed since the moment the curse was cast. Meanwhile, the flashbacks are good at showing the passage of time, so there are differences in the characters' appearances depending on the era of the flashbacks. During the really distant flashbacks, Snow is played by a child actor and Regina has a drastically different look, with different hair and makeup and a very different color palette for wardrobe. Then young Queen Regina looks rather different. Widow Queen Regina and Princess Snow (including Princess Refugee Snow, like when she first met Red) have a certain look. Then there's Evil Queen and Bandit Snow, and then there's the "Queen" Snow era, from marriage to curse. All of those are distinct from their Storybrooke looks. And still, the time from Regina casting Snow out to the curse only seems to cover about four years.

In season seven, the closest things we've been given to an age/time stamp are Robin's and Lucy's ages, which actually only confuse things. The backstory spans about a decade, but there's no real difference in any of the characters. The only big difference is that Tiana and Ella are wearing nice dresses from around Lucy's birth onward and their "revolutionary" outfits otherwise. Henry, Whook, Regina, and Alice are all exactly the same from the time they first appear to the curse, which seems to be about ten years. Robyn changes from a school uniform to fairy tale clothes, but her hair is the same. She and Alice are apparently going from teenagers to mid-20s without changing anything. Rapunzel changes actresses around the span of Alice's life, played by one actress before Alice's birth and then a different actress when Alice is a teenager. But Zelena is played by the same actress and looks exactly the same when her daughter is in her mid-20s as she did when her daughter was born.

We've had various theories along the way about how all this worked. In the first episode, there was speculation that Henry must have gone to a place where time moved faster, and then Regina and Hook were with him just when the curse brought them to our world. In the second episode, we were still thinking there was a difference in time passing, so it's only been a few years since Emma and Hook were married, and we're all still in 2017 in our world. There's just the issue of Lucy's age and why Regina and Whook hadn't aged in about ten years since they joined Henry earlier than we'd thought. Then they said on Twitter that it's after 2017 when Henry leaves home, which ruined that and meant that the curse involved time travel. Then we were speculating that Ella was a single mom, Lucy was already born, and Henry was a stepfather. That would have explained some of the not aging, since no time passed. But they showed Lucy soon after her birth, and there was that DNA test. For a little while, it seemed that Zelena and Robyn had been living in a different realm where time passed faster, but then we learned they'd actually been in Storybrooke up to when Robyn was 18, so Robyn's current age fits with them being on the same timeline. Robyn's age blows all the "time is passing differently in Storybrooke" theories out of the water, unless Zelena got frustrated with a small child and gave her that tea that speeds up pregnancies, and that made her grow up faster.

Now we're at the point where there doesn't seem to be any way to explain it all, so it's looking like there is no explanation. It's just sloppy writing, so there's no point in speculating.

[tennisgurl]

Poor Mekia is new around here. I used to watch movies or refresh myself on books and stories they were going to be using here, but that ship has sailed. Now, being aware of the source material just makes everything more annoying, as we have clearly done more research than they have. 

[Rumsy4]

The writers don't even seem to have bothered reading the Wikipedia summaries since Season 6. For example, they seemed vaguely aware that the Count of Monte Cristo was bent on revenge, but nothing else. the same way, they seem to know Tiana is associated with frogs and food. Beyond that...

[KingOfHearts]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

She's only one level up from a Granny-level character because she does nothing when it isn't her centric.  She's barely even a supporting character.  

Nick: "If you think that's bad, I'm not even Will-Scarlet-level."

Quote

Yeah, there's not much point in speculating when you don't know what's meaningful and what isn't -- is the lack of aging by some characters related to the story, or not?

I watched a review on Riverdale lately. One of the plots (though I haven't been keeping up) turned out to be a lie fabricated by one of the characters just to test them. The reviewer was pointing that if some plots can be "JK, it was all a lie/dream/non-consequential escapade", how can we find anything on the show meaningful? If the writers can pull the rug right from under any time, what's the point? It doesn't feel like the universe is "real" after that. While I can't remember any time off the top of my head that A&E did some major fakeout on purpose on a plot, there's been plenty of times where some reset just makes it worth nothing.

I've heard people, including the actors, say that anything is possible on Once Upon a Time. But, that can be more limiting than opening. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The reviewer was pointing that if some plots can be "JK, it was all a lie/dream/non-consequential escapade", how can we find anything on the show meaningful? If the writers can pull the rug right from under any time, what's the point? It doesn't feel like the universe is "real" after that. While I can't remember any time off the top of my head that A&E did some major fakeout on purpose on a plot, there's been plenty of times where some reset just makes it worth nothing.

I think a lot of it depends on how it's handled and on the show's structure. I was going to say that a series probably only gets one time to be able to pull off the whole "oops, it was a dream/lie!" kind of fakeout, but then I remembered that part of the show structure of Leverage was that it happened in every episode -- there would always be a point where it seemed like the plan had utterly failed, and then there would be a flashback rewind to show that the failure was actually part of the plan, and the real scheme was happening elsewhere. Then I think there was a time or two when they used that expectation of the pattern to an advantage and the moment of failure really was a moment of failure where they had to scramble and improvise just to get out.

I actually kind of love a really good bit of red herring plotting, but only if it's set up well. If it's all a dream, there need to be clues that all isn't what it seems. If there are clues that all isn't what it seems, then all can't be what it seems. On this show, they kind of do none of the above. When there's a big twist, there are no clues. When there are clues, there's generally no big twist that uses them, and they're so inconsistent about what's intentional and what's meaningless that you never can tell what's important and what's just being sloppy (like the relative ages being meaningful in the first season and who the hell knows in season seven).

So we get stuff like the Wish Realm -- in season six, it's like a bubble universe created by the granting of the Evil Queen's wish to grant Emma's wish, seemingly with them having fake memories of a full life in spite of only having existed for a few hours, and the people aren't real at all, so it's funny and not murder when Regina accidentally crushes the Charmings' hearts, and you can even sort of handwave Wish Robin being "real" because he was out of the timeline and there were hints about him getting Robin's soul. But in season seven, it's a real place that seems to have somehow existed all along, since WHook is a real person who has an extensive past in which he interacted with another world enough to father a child in that world. Except learning this doesn't seem to have made Regina (or Emma) realize that Regina really did murder a version of the Charmings, and no one is worried about what's up with Wish Henry, who was left rather abruptly and violently orphaned.

And there are the retcons in the past that should have had an effect in the future, except they couldn't because they came out of nowhere, like the eggbaby, which should have been a huge cloud hanging over the Charmings as they went through a second pregnancy (interesting that Snow was able to walk through the doorway that only allowed pure hearts while pregnant with Snowflake but wasn't allowed to be considered a hero because her child had the potential to be a villain or a hero when pregnant with Emma -- wouldn't facing that door have made Snow think about that past event?) and which should have mattered in who/what Emma was.

Or the Chekhov's Arsenal situations, where they seemed to be setting up something, then went in a totally different direction that wasn't set up.

I think at this point, I'd be okay with season seven being all a dream. It's about the only way to make everything that happened make sense. I'd probably rejoice if Teen Henry woke up after having fallen asleep while reading one of those storybooks, maybe noticed the book was open to a picture of a version of Cinderella that looked like Jacinda, and then went downstairs to tell Regina what a weird dream he had and that he's ready to fill out his college applications. It would make sense that he'd still see the people he knows looking the way he knows them in his dream, even while he grows up in the dream and incorporates other characters. In a way, they may have been laying clues that all isn't what it seems in the ages (not that I think they have been, but they could certainly retcon it as them having planned it all along). Heck, they could even have the dream be Gothel's attempt to carry out some scheme, and the dream provides the clue that allows them to defeat her in the finale. Even the scenario of Hyperion Heights Regina calling Storybrooke Regina to tell her not to let Henry leave town doesn't reconcile the age issue.

[KingOfHearts]

I should have elaborated that "it was all a dream/lie" is fine if it's setup well. For example, there's another show that does this exceedingly well.

Spoiler

The writers of The Good Place are masters at pushing the reset button without losing consequences or reverting progression. The first season is the perfect example of "it was all a lie", and there were clues the entire time. If you really paid attention and thought about it, you could probably figure it out before the reveal. But, it's not always obvious if you're just casually watching it. This morning I was watching a part of the pilot episode I hadn't seen for some reason, and Eleanor mentioned her parents were probably in the Bad Place being used to torture each other. That was a very clever hint at what was really going on.

The good kind of twist occurs when you can look back and piece things together. If you can't, it's a contrivance. I'll admit, sometimes OUAT does get it right, though. The Rapunzel/Tremaine reveal was hinted at as early as 7x03, with Gothel being trapped in a tower. 

[Rumsy4]

At some point, the OUAT writers stopped doing hints, and started throwing in last-minute twists. Apparently, when a lot of people guessed that Henry's father was probably Baelfire, A&E were contemplating changing it. That tells us how much they prioritize the surprise element.

Half the fun in reading mystery novels and watching mystery shows is to try and figure out what's going on.  And then, when the killer is revealed or whatever, to go back and reread to see what clues were missed. The writers of OUAT took that fun away from the viewers because they became obsessed with delivering "twists". It's like poor Night Shyamalan. He became so known for the "twist" ending, that his writing sort of fell apart for a while.

[RolloTomasi]

That’s what bothered me about the Dark Hook twist. Yes, it was interesting and yes, Colin was amazing. But literally nothing in the earlier episodes hinted at that. And it would have been so easy! Throw in a line about Hook not sleeping well, or have him lose his temper and something breaks or whatever. Instead, we get nothing in the writing and they don’t even inform the actor so he can, you know, act. It was a cool twist that you didn’t see coming, but GOOD writers would have put the breadcrumbs in so the audience could connect the dots after the fact. As with everything, A&E instead went with the most inorganic way to tell that story. (Zelena-as-Marian is another, but I’m also pretty confident they came up with that to combat the negative response to OQ crypt sex.)

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Apparently, when a lot of people guessed that Henry's father was probably Baelfire, A&E were contemplating changing it.

I wish they had. Then Henry wouldn't be Rumples grandson and maybe the idiot good guys wouldn't have kept giving Gramps constant free passes to screw them over. Ah, who am I kidding? They probably meant they were going to shock us by introducing Baelfire's unknown twin brother Haelsmoke who pretended to be Neil in order to knock up Emma because, that's how it's done in the EF. 

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Apparently, when a lot of people guessed that Henry's father was probably Baelfire, A&E were contemplating changing it. That tells us how much they prioritize the surprise element.

Part of the problem is that they write for the Twitter crowd, which doesn't necessarily reflect the general audience. That audience is obsessed enough to parse every little clue, analyze it all, and come up with theories. Of course they're going to figure out anything that has even the slightest clue, but that doesn't mean that 90 percent of the audience is going to figure it out, and if you write trying to fool the obsessed fans, you're only going to get the kind of nonsense we get, where it doesn't make sense.

If they wanted Baelfire to be a surprise, maybe they should have introduced another character who was a potential. We knew it was probably going to be someone meaningful because that's how this show rolls, and there wasn't any other meaningful character whose whereabouts during the curse matched up.

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's like poor Night Shyamalan. He became so known for the "twist" ending, that his writing sort of fell apart for a while.

The Sixth Sense was like a textbook case on how to write a twist because the clues were there, but they weren't obviously clues. I knew when I saw it that there was a twist, but I was otherwise unspoiled, and I didn't catch it before the reveal, but upon rewatching I wanted to smack my head because it was obvious in retrospect. What the Once writers lack is that ability to make the clues blend in by giving some other reason for them to be there. Shyamalan's problem was that everyone then became really intent on looking for the twists, so he had to get more crazy with them. Maybe he'd have been better off skipping the twist for the next couple of movies instead of making it his "thing."

[Camera One]

The lack of interest in this week's episode (in terms of discussion) shows the pitfall in a show like this where the Writers have such a huge slate of characters which rotate on a weekly basis based on the centric model of series writing.  Unless a viewer is invested in all or almost all the characters, they may skip a week here or there.  Last week, there was no Tiana, but this week, there was no Gothel or Drizella.  Both weeks, there was no Alice.  To a certain extent, this was a problem for the old show as well.  The ironic thing is this week, they did give screentime to all 4 of the "originals" - Regina, Zelena, Hook and Rumple, and yet, there is less discussion.

Tiana did seem to be one of the favorite new characters from 7A, so it's hard to tell if the slight ratings bump was due to her having a centric, or due to people liking the previous episode, or due to more people remembering the show was "back", or due to random factors.  

Edited March 11, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The ironic thing is this week, they did give screentime to all 4 of the "originals" - Regina, Zelena, Hook and Rumple, and yet, there is less discussion.

There was probably less discussion because Regina was the only one of those characters to have anything to do this week. Zelena, Hook, and Rumple didn't accomplish much.

Quote

The lack of interest in this week's episode (in terms of discussion) shows the pitfall in a show like this where the Writers have such a huge slate of characters which rotate on a weekly basis based on the centric model of series writing.  Unless a viewer is invested in all or almost all the characters, they may skip a week here or there. 

That's been a problem for a really long time. The writers don't look at the ensemble as a group, but rather a series of separate storylines. I can't remember the last time where everything interconnected very well without some sort of clunky device forcing them together.

Edited March 11, 2018 by KingOfHearts