A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Though it still doesn't work too well because the whole murdering thing never really goes anywhere. Maybe just skip the murdering part and Ella is going to the ball to publicly shame and confront her stepmother, but Lady Tremaine kills the prince and frames her for it, so she has to fight her way out with Henry.

Yes, that would have made so much more sense.  As you said, the murdering thing led nowhere.  Ella punching Henry in the face to steal his motorcycle would still have made her unlikeable, though.

[Shanna Marie]

It occurred to me that we couldn't start with Henry putting the glass slipper on Cinderella and Lady Tremaine making threats if Cinderella had been framed for murdering the prince and had to flee the ball with Henry, so what if we put a twist on the story, and the slipper wasn't being used to identify a prince's true love, but rather to identify the suspect in the prince's murder? So we could start with what looks like the iconic scene from Cinderella, with the prince finding the maiden who fits the shoe, but it turns out the guards have captured Cinderella, the murdered prince's brother is trying the shoe on her to see if she's the murderer who left a shoe behind when she fled, and rather than objecting to Ella getting a chance to try the shoe on, Lady Tremaine is eager for it to happen. Maybe even mirror the bit in the cartoon where the shoe is destroyed before Cinderella can try it on, but she has the other one, and Ella manages to shatter the shoe, but Lady Tremaine has the other one.

Then Henry can swoop in to rescue her, maybe on his bike, where he freaks them all out by riding a motorcycle into their midst, and that gives him a chance to pull Cinderella onto the bike with him and ride off.

33 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Ella punching Henry in the face to steal his motorcycle would still have made her unlikeable, though.

Yeah, since he was trying to help her. But then we saw Snow smash Charming in the face with a rock while she was trying to rob him, and is that any better? I guess she was trying to free herself when he captured her, so it was self defense rather than assaulting someone trying to help.

Ideally, I'd skip the whole "meet not cute" the way they did it and have Henry attending the ball as a tourist -- he's getting to see a "Cinderella" ball. But then Cinderella is accused of murder, and he saw that she didn't do it, so he helps her escape, but he thinks he's in the clear and doesn't realize she's not right behind him (echoing the troll bridge bit from "Snow Falls"), and she's captured. The shoe scene ensues and Henry shows up.

But then I guess we'd need another reason for him to call Hook for help. Maybe midnight hits and Ella flees him before she's in rags again (that doesn't seem to have applied here, as she's in the blue ballgown for some time), and then Henry gets captured by Lady Tremaine and her goons.

Or maybe something interesting that actually makes sense happens. That was a rather weak excuse to use his desperation move that he hasn't called upon for maybe 15 years. There are all kinds of dangers he could run into after he gets separated from Ella.

[Camera One]

Those are all really good ideas.  And it's appalling that a room full of writers couldn't come up with those possibilities.  All of your scenarios still include their twists and the all-important motorcycle.  A&E would probably say that they couldn't have a man be the hero that rides in on a golden steed/motorcycle.  Cinderella has to be the one to ride up front.

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It occurred to me that we couldn't start with Henry putting the glass slipper on Cinderella and Lady Tremaine making threats if Cinderella had been framed for murdering the prince and had to flee the ball with Henry, so what if we put a twist on the story, and the slipper wasn't being used to identify a prince's true love, but rather to identify the suspect in the prince's murder? So we could start with what looks like the iconic scene from Cinderella, with the prince finding the maiden who fits the shoe, but it turns out the guards have captured Cinderella, the murdered prince's brother is trying the shoe on her to see if she's the murderer who left a shoe behind when she fled, and rather than objecting to Ella getting a chance to try the shoe on, Lady Tremaine is eager for it to happen. Maybe even mirror the bit in the cartoon where the shoe is destroyed before Cinderella can try it on, but she has the other one, and Ella manages to shatter the shoe, but Lady Tremaine has the other one.

This is particularly ingenious.

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is particularly ingenious.

Thanks. I may steal it for my own work because I've been working on a Cinderella retelling in which Cinderella goes to the ball not to meet the prince, but as a secret agent trying to get into the castle. That would be a fun way to use the slipper.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But then I guess we'd need another reason for him to call Hook for help.

Yes, I'd think there were other opportunities for that.  I thought Henry calling for help was rather pathetic in the context they showed.

[Camera One]

I was watching a "reaction" video on Youtube with someone watching the "Once" pilot for the first time.  The viewer was trying to remember the Rumplestiltskin story and wondering/excited about what happened to Cinderella, Rapunzel, Aurora, and Mulan, etc.,  It was hard to watch a new viewer reacting, knowing that ultimately, this show provides very little to true fans of fairy tales, or even Disney films, because it barely scrapes the surface and a lot of the Easter Eggs are just that, and stuff like random name-dropping is not very satisfying at all.  Most of the time, it doesn't matter if a viewer knows the Grimm version of a fairy tale, or the details of the Disney movie... knowing all this doesn't increase enjoyment of this show past the first season or two.  

[Shanna Marie]

Since the season seven timeline is impossible to figure out, I thought I'd give my brain a break by trying to figure out the geography of the original Enchanted Forest world.

We know there's the Enchanted Forest/Misthaven, which seems to have at least one coastal town. George's kingdom appears to be adjacent and also to have a coast (since the Charmings wanted to sail from there to Regina's kingdom). Aurora's kingdom appears to be adjacent to both George's kingdom and the Enchanted Forest, assuming that Aurora under the sleeping curse was laid out in her family's palace. Team Princess was able to walk between Aurora's palace and George's palace. If they're at all similar to the Disney story, Philip's kingdom should be adjacent to Aurora's kingdom (since they were uniting the neighboring kingdoms by marrying their children to each other).

Eric's kingdom would also be along the coast and probably next to the Enchanted Forest, since Snow was chased there by Regina's guards. I'm not sure if Sherwood Forest is its own kingdom or if it's just a region in the Enchanted Forest. Was Rapunzel 1.0 away from home in the tower that was near Sherwood Forest or was her kingdom near there?

Midas's kingdom must be on the opposite side of the Enchanted Forest from George's kingdom, since Charming and Abigail had to journey by carriage across the Enchanted Forest to get from George's kingdom to Midas's kingdom, and maybe it's landlocked, so they couldn't travel there by sea. Then there's Camelot, which seems to be fairly close to Rumple's castle (but we don't know if he's in a separate kingdom or just has a castle in the Enchanted Forest), and Dun Broch beyond it. Somewhere in all this there's also Belle's kingdom, Henry Sr.'s kingdom, the kingdom Eva came from, and the kingdom of Cinderella's prince.

Then, farther away there's Arendelle and the Summer Isles (or wherever Hans is from).

I can almost make it all work until I try to figure out where the Coradome went. It's hard to account for which people in which places got picked up by the curse. It would have had to curve a lot to keep the Sherwood Forest people and Aurora in that world while the Charmings in George's palace were taken, along with most of the people in the Enchanted Forest. There must have been a coastline included in the dome, since weren't Hook and Cora standing on the shore when she put up the dome? And Hook was sailing during the curse.

I wonder, does that world also have a Magic Bayou?

[Camera One]

52 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I can almost make it all work until I try to figure out where the Coradome went. It's hard to account for which people in which places got picked up by the curse. It would have had to curve a lot to keep the Sherwood Forest people and Aurora in that world while the Charmings in George's palace were taken, along with most of the people in the Enchanted Forest. There must have been a coastline included in the dome, since weren't Hook and Cora standing on the shore when she put up the dome? And Hook was sailing during the curse.

With some book series and movies, one would want to get the Official Map™.  In this case, it's impossible because A&E didn't know where the hell anything was.  

Sherlock Forest was walkable from the Enchanted Forest as was Aurora's kingdom, so maybe those two were side-by-side and in the general area where Cora created her non-circular dome.  It included the coastline we see at the end of "We Are Both", when Mulan is dragging Emma and Snow along the beach to get to that Safe Haven.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Don't forget Little Ancient China, which is presumably in Misthaven as well. 

[Camera One]

And further out would be Agrabah.

The next step is to map the intergalactic connections between the realms.  There was the Enchanted Forest, the Disenchanted Forest, the Wishenchanted Forest, Wonderland, Diswonderland, Oz which opens to both the Enchanted Forest and the Disenchanted Forest, Neverland, Perpetual 1930s Land, Black-and-White Land, Fictional Victorian Land, Land of Untold Stories, The Dark Realm, the Land of Mirrors, and Fictional Kansas.

That's 14.  Did I forget any?  Not including The Land Without Magic formerly known as The Land of Tree Nymphs and Prehistoric Victorian Mean Girls.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

There were also all those worlds in the mirror room in Jefferson's hat. 

[Shanna Marie]

On second thought, I think maybe Aurora's kingdom was outside the Coradome. Philip and Mulan, who were inside the dome, weren't able to get to her until after the curse was broken and the dome came down (even if we ignore the season 6 retcon in which Hook was able to have adventures during the curse, they said in season 2 that time started moving again at the same time it did in Storybrooke, so you'd think they'd have managed to reach Aurora sooner). The place seemed pretty deserted, not like a place skipped by the curse, so maybe it was cursed but since Aurora was under a sleeping curse, she was left behind instead of brought to Storybrooke. That makes the geography work a little better.

Rumple's castle must be on the side of the kingdom near Aurora's kingdom, since Philip and Mulan (and maybe Aurora? I don't recall) found Neal on the shore, and they went quickly to Rumple's castle.

Aurora's kingdom seems to be Portal Central. It's where the wraith, Emma, and Snow went through. When the curse was reversed, the core Storybrooke gang landed right at Philip and Aurora's picnic, and then Neal seems to have shown up there when he fell through a portal (or else Philip and Mulan were patrolling the whole coastline and not just their areas).

It would have been interesting to see what kind of society developed in the Enchanted Forest after curse 2.0 and after the people went back through the door at the end of season 5. There would have been a pretty big vacuum left behind with all the people who were gone to Storybrooke. And then they barely had a few months to get settled before they got stuck with another Regina. Yay. But it seemed like nobody was there when everyone got sent back by the Black Fairy. Unless they weren't sent to the real Enchanted Forest, but rather to some pocket dimension that was shrinking around them.

[KingOfHearts]

27 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The place seemed pretty deserted, not like a place skipped by the curse, so maybe it was cursed but since Aurora was under a sleeping curse, she was left behind instead of brought to Storybrooke. That makes the geography work a little better.

I think A&E said at some point that even other realms (like Oz and Wonderland) were also frozen in time. So I guess you didn't have to be inside the Coradome to be frozen? If you were outside the Coradome, you were probably in danger of being pulled in by the Curse if you were on Regina's Guest List of Evil. But if you were inside the Coradome, you couldn't be taken by the Curse. I'm guessing Regina would've brought Hook to Storybrooke because she seemed to bring people over she had previously worked with, like Jefferson and Dr. Whale. I'm sure she could've used Hook in Storybrooke as a potential hitman or contingency against Rumple. If Hook were outside the Coradome, I'm sure he would've gotten taken like everybody else. (Cora probably would've been dragged along too since the Curse would've targeted her body at least.)

OUATIW made it messy because we didn't know why Wonderland was unchanged. When Zelena showed up, we assumed she had her own Coradome, but then A&E said something about other realms being frozen in time as well. 

Wasn't the rest of EF sort of derelict after the Curse as well? I seem to recall everywhere else to look pretty deserted too. I just assumed Aurora's realm was full of thorns and destroyed because Maleficent had attacked before the curse.

Edited October 29, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I think A&E said at some point that even other realms (like Oz and Wonderland) were also frozen in time. So I guess you didn't have to be inside the Coradome to be frozen?

Yeah, they declared that everyone was frozen (but I think that came because they forgot about the curse freezing time for the Storybrookers and Coradome folks and got their timeline messed up, then covered for it by declaring that the curse froze everyone). But I think the way it worked was that everywhere was frozen, but the Coradome kept people from being taken away. It's almost like the dome was actually over the people who were taken, while everyone else was outside it and frozen but not taken.

Though the freezing thing wasn't universal. The implication was that Arendelle was literally frozen in time because of Ingrid, not by the curse. Liam 2.0 grew up after being taken away by Nemo. He should have been under 10 if everywhere was frozen, so he must have gone somewhere that wasn't frozen. Dorothy grew up, so Fictional Kansas World wasn't frozen.

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Wasn't the rest of EF sort of derelict after the Curse as well? I seem to recall everywhere else to look pretty deserted too.

The parts affected by the curse were in bad shape and had been taken over by ogres. I'm not sure what went on under the dome, since they don't seem to have been left unscathed. They were having to band together in their encampment like refugees instead of just living in their homes. If time wasn't moving, the ogres shouldn't have been able to really settle in and breed to the point they took everything over and became a threat to the people in the dome.

But all that was forgotten after the curse reverse. Everything seemed fine. Did Zelena kick out the ogres and clean the place up?

[KAOS Agent]

I think the Coradome wasn't that big. They did specify that all those refugees under the dome were living on an island because it was safe from the ogres who had taken over everywhere else.

[Camera One]

14 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

On second thought, I think maybe Aurora's kingdom was outside the Coradome. Philip and Mulan, who were inside the dome, weren't able to get to her until after the curse was broken and the dome came down

I had forgotten about that.  Though I'm surprised the Ogres didn't find Aurora considering the rest of the palace was pretty destroyed.  It's plain weird that she wasn't taken by the Curse simply because she was under a Sleeping Curse.  

In "Broken", Philip said to the awakened Aurora, "Then come with me.  Our people have gathered in a new safe haven. We must join them."  This suggests a lot of their people didn't get swept up by the Curse.  

This was the original "time frozen" explanation:

Quote

Mulan: She cast a curse on this land. A terrible, terrible curse. It ripped everyone away to another world.
Aurora: But we're still here.
Mulan: This corner of the land was untouched. No one knows why. But something saved us. And for 28 years we were frozen. And then, time started again. The terrible curse's power was weakened. Phillip and I were able to resume our search. We found you. But the land is ravaged with dangers more fearsome than you can imagine. 

How did Mulan figure out that they had been frozen for 28 years?  Were they "frozen" the way people of Storybrooke were "frozen"?  Or were they literally frozen in place?

That dialogue is so awkward on paper.  "But we're still here" felt like stating the obvious.  I think a normal person might say something like, "Why were we left behind?"  Mulan's sentences were so choppy.  Yes, we got it was a "terrible" curse when you used that word twice a few seconds ago.   I remember thinking Mulan was wooden way back when, but maybe it was partly the bad dialogue, because she was much better in later appearances.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Were they "frozen" the way people of Storybrooke were "frozen"?  Or were they literally frozen in place?

The impression I got during season two, from this scene and from the way Cora described it to Hook, was that they were literally frozen, like they were entirely unaware of the passage of time, though that wouldn't explain how Mulan knew the amount of time, unless someone else she'd run into knew and had told her. That would have made more sense if the rest of the world hadn't been frozen in time, too, but I suspect that at that time, they hadn't decided* that time was frozen everywhere. It seemed at the time like the people under the dome would have been taken but were frozen instead, but the rest of the world went about its business (how the ogres took over in the lands vacated by the curse). Even the part affected by the transport part of the curse had time passing (thus the ogres and the general decay of the buildings).

*they hadn't forgotten about the time freeze of the curse and had someone who should have been outside the curse not having aged differently, and when called on it, their quick explanation was that everyone was frozen. I don't think that even came up until season 5 when the people in Camelot hadn't aged (since they gave a different explanation for the Frozen people not aging). Possibly Zelena, but I figured with her magic, she'd have de-aged herself, or the necklace made her semi-immortal, so I wasn't worried about the timeline issue with her.

But if the rest of the world was frozen but not sent to Storybrooke, why did Cora need the dome? Why not just go somewhere else? She and Hook had a ship. It makes some sense if the dome just limited the effects of the travel part of the curse to that one area, leaving the rest of the world frozen in time, but that's strangely generous of Cora. Or she put up a dome in an area that should have been transported to keep them there.

The season 6 flashback with Hook and Nemo kind of ruined most of the explanations other than the idea that the dome just limited the travel part, since Hook was able to go have adventures at sea during the curse, and he wasn't frozen. Having adventures also didn't really fit with the groundhog day idea, unless he ran into Nemo every day.

How crowded would the small town in Maine have been if the curse would have taken the whole world if Cora hadn't put up her dome? As it is, it's weird that almost the entire population of at least three kingdoms fit into a small town, not to mention there were no power struggles after the curse broke and there were multiple kings living in that town.

[KingOfHearts]

I have a hard time believe Rumple didn't have servants before Belle. He had a large estate, and for 100 years, he just lived by himself? I thought he was all about power and having control over people. He had the mute maid he murdered, so I really doubt he'd stop there. I almost wish the writers had pulled a Bluebeard and had Belle find a basement full of bodies. Did Rumple murder Mrs. Potts? Cogsworth?

But then again, Belle wasn't phased by the fact Rumple murdered his ex-wife, so it probably wouldn't have mattered.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I have a hard time believe Rumple didn't have servants before Belle. He had a large estate, and for 100 years, he just lived by himself? I thought he was all about power and having control over people. He had the mute maid he murdered, so I really doubt he'd stop there. I almost wish the writers had pulled a Bluebeard and had Belle find a basement full of bodies. Did Rumple murder Mrs. Potts? Cogsworth?

But then again, Belle wasn't phased by the fact Rumple murdered his ex-wife, so it probably wouldn't have mattered.

The sad thing is your right. Belle wouldn't have been phased by it at all. 

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The sad thing is your right. Belle wouldn't have been phased by it at all. 

She has been aware of him beating four different men to death. (Her father, Hook, Robin, and Nottingham) She was literally cleaning the blood off his aprons. She has stopped him from murdering people multiple times. 

It's not like she was someone who had only heard of the atrocities he had committed in the past. She witnessed him doing cruel, unforgivable things firsthand. Her and Rumple were both monstrous psychopaths. 

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She has been aware of him beating four different men to death. (Her father, Hook, Robin, and Nottingham) She was literally cleaning the blood off his aprons. She has stopped him from murdering people multiple times. 

It's not like she was someone who had only heard of the atrocities he had committed in the past. She witnessed him doing cruel, unforgivable things firsthand. Her and Rumple were both monstrous psychopaths. 

Exactly, she witness so many times of him doing something horrible and always let it go. If at worse she left, she always came back. It really wouldn't have been as bad or annoying if Belle didn't keep insisting he was good, had a good heart and all that crap. If they had her realize she really doesn't care or is into all that. She'd still be awful. But it would make a lot more sense. 

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I have a hard time believe Rumple didn't have servants before Belle. He had a large estate, and for 100 years, he just lived by himself?

I wonder why we never got a flashback about his previous servant.  As you've all said, Belle could justify anything with Rumple and his goodness buried deep deep deep deep inside of him.

I'm still watching a series of reaction videos and they were on "The Price of Gold".  The viewer was saying how she missed the Cinderella-ness in this episode and she was surprised how quickly the Thomas storyline was wrapped up (I guess not knowing it was pretty much a one-episode story despite showing up once more in Season 1 and intermittently henceforth). 

I remember being disappointed as well with how little Cinderella was used, considering what drew me to the show were the mash-ups.  One of the problems with a continuing show is that they could only tell other fairy tales by connecting it to the protagonists' stories.  Cinderella was simply used as a vehicle to explain how Rumple got caught, and as a character piece in the present with her parallels with Emma.  There was no long-term plan for her.  

Could the show have possibly told Cinderella's story or the Sleeping Beauty story, etc., while still servicing the main characters?  It would be tough to have flashbacks that don't relate directly to the protagonists.  

I felt like the only other time another Disney story was explored fully was 4A with "Frozen".  

[daxx]

Watching Heart of the Truest Believer. Such a great Pan introduction, it’s a shame he ended up being Rumple’s dad, there were so many more interesting directions they could have gone with his backstory or even make him an immortal part of the island.

Why does every villain have to be related to one of the mains.

I wish they had used more aspects of the Neverland from the books than they did. Neverland should have been far more interesting.

[Camera One]

32 minutes ago, daxx said:

I wish they had used more aspects of the Neverland from the books than they did. Neverland should have been far more interesting.

This show ended up being all about the razzle and the dazzle, ignoring the fact that each fairy tale, or fantasy story, or novel, or heck, Disney movie, provided so many intriguing avenues to go down.  

I was thinking about Season 1 and seriously, how unnecessary was having Mary Margaret and David sleep with other people.  

The actors were so good that we would still have enjoyed a subtler, slower paced exploration of the ramifications of fairy tale characters living in our world, and fairy tale characters living out lives in their fantasy lands as they interacted with one another.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Camera One

[Camera One]

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I almost wish the writers had pulled a Bluebeard and had Belle find a basement full of bodies.

They can throw the yellow ball gown at us all they want, but Rumple on this show was more Bluebeard than The Beast.  

Then, again, these same said Writers had Snow see a pile of bodies and still forced the friendship on us.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

It just occurred to me. I'm getting ahead of the rewatch here, but for Zelena's episode, why didn't they just bring back the witches from Oz? Instead of this random Hansel and Gretel story, Zelena could've connected to everyone through the North and East witches. 

[Camera One]

14 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It just occurred to me. I'm getting ahead of the rewatch here, but for Zelena's episode, why didn't they just bring back the witches from Oz? Instead of this random Hansel and Gretel story, Zelena could've connected to everyone through the North and East witches. 

I forgot what happened in the Zelena episode beyond explaining why Hansel became evil.  

Having said that, I would have loved to see the Witches of Oz again.

[tennisgurl]

Seeing Robyn and Zelena together in season seven, and everything with WHook and Gothel, just reminds me again of how fucking creepy this show is when it comes to rape and sexual abuse, and how weirdly creepy it is. I really wonder how at lot of this would fly even now, especially Regina keeping Graham/Huntsmen as a sex slave in both worlds, and how that is all glossed over. If that aired in 2019, with the conversation in society about sexual abuse and rape being so prevalent, especially in depictions of rape in the media, would they have been able to gloss it over so easily? I mean, they probably would have done the exact same thing and had the exact same response to criticism ("its fantasy, its not even real! Look how sad Regina is!") but I think it might have been a bigger controversy. Of course, they were pulling the same crap until the very end, so it probably wouldn't have mattered to them, no matter how much angry tweets they hot or think pieces were written. What really gets me is that not only did this happen more than once (it happened several times in the shows run, and being a sexual predator is basically the one consistent trait of the EQ, thanks for that A&E!) not only were the people behind the show ridiculously flippant about fans understandable complaints of their downplaying of sexual assault, but this is supposed to be a family show! Its marketed as a hopeful magic Disney show that is family friendly, and while you can certainly do adult themes on family shows with themes of hope and love, its so messed up that they keep adding this very mature adult subject, that some of their audience of their loved ones could have experienced, and handled it so carelessly so many times. They go on and on about how this show is all about love and family and hope, despite all of these horrible things happening, and all of these victims being ignored and victimizes getting away with their crimes. Thats not very hopeful in my book! And then they tried to play the "but magic its not the same!!!" card, which was just insulting. Magic exists in their world, so the consequences should too! And even if they really write in these rapes accidentally (gross) fans told them what they did, and they just ignored it! Parents complained! They cant pull the ignorance card that many times after so many people spelled out why this was wrong. And in a time where people are talking more and more about the importance of consent, their lack of interesting or understanding of it just makes it worse on the re-watch. 

[KAOS Agent]

I think they thought the same way that Lana Parrilla did about it. In one interview, she referred to Regina's relationship with Graham as fun and flirty, while Jamie Dornan in interviews for the same episode referred to it as sad and horrific. The showrunners were clearly pushing Parrilla's interpretation. I do think they go with the she's hot, so who wouldn't be happy to hit that? mentality, while Dornan was very obviously aware that his character would not have been cool with being a sex slave just because his mistress was hot.  Jane Espenson was the only writer on the show to ever acknowledge that it was rape.

Keep in mind that these are the same writers who thought everyone would be super fine with Regina and Robin getting it on in the crypt while his wife lay in a cursed sleep not far away. True Love y'all. I think that they have trouble separating fantasy (thoughts and dreams) from fantasy (fiction). A fantasy show is a story and it has things like magic and curses and crazy worlds, but the people who inhabit those worlds aren't free from emotion or feelings. Cheating on your spouse in a fantasy world that still has things like marriage vows isn't any different than doing it in the real world. There is no absolution in it being a fantasy.

Sometimes the method of an action is different because of the fantastic aspects, but it still results in the same feelings and emotions for those being subjected to it. In our world we can't pull out someone's heart and control them into having sex with us, but we could roofie them into submission. Or we could simply tie them down and forcibly commit rape. The psychological effects on the victim will still be the same afterwards.

Poor Graham had it worse in the Enchanted Forest in that he knew what was happening, hated it and still was magically compelled to do it. In Storybrooke, he felt wrong about it, but at least he didn't know why. And he did finally say no when Emma's appearance allowed the curse to diminish some of its effects on him and he was able to break free a bit. That they had Regina kill him after he rejected her made it about 80 million times worse because again, this is not an action that is unique to a fantasy world, but something that happens all the time in the real world. Just because she could do it by squeezing his heart instead of stabbing him through the heart with a knife does not somehow make it less real.

[daxx]

6 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Just because she could do it by squeezing his heart instead of stabbing him through the heart with a knife does not somehow make it less real.

They never saw that what they were doing had a real world equivalent. I don’t understand how they never connected the dots. 

[KingOfHearts]

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

What Zelena did to Robin would have made for some interesting conflict between her and her daughter, and more organic than what they went with. It struck me as odd that Zelena was refusing to teach her daughter magic, given that people refusing to teach her magic in spite of her talent was what set her off to become evil. She, of all people, should have known that guiding and encouraging someone with power is important. 

Now that you say that, it feels like a missed opportunity for Zelena to be stuck as Zarian for all of 4A. She, of all people, should've had a very strong opinion on what was going on with Ingrid, Elsa, and Emma since their backgrounds were so similar when it came to magic. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Website glitched and posted twice.

Edited November 5, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was thinking... what if Season 7 had been a new pilot, but without any of the supernatural elements?  Do you think it could have worked as a new show?

So Lucy is the daughter of Jacinda, a single parent with an oppressive stepmother - rich estate tycoon Victoria Mills - who is always threatening to take her daughter away from her and is pushing residents out of their homes for re-development.  So Lucy runs off and finds her favorite author Henry Mills, stealing his laptop so he comes to Hyperion Heights.  He falls in love at first sight with Jacinda in the neighborhood bar owned by Roni.  Meanwhile, Rogers is a newly promoted police detective who is suspicious of Victoria's shady business dealings and ties with corrupt cop Weaver.  Rogers, Henry and Roni decide to work together to uncover Victoria's secrets and to bring her down.  Henry helps Jacinda and her best friend Sabine to start their food truck business.  Meanwhile, he meets Victoria's daughter Ivy who is trying to get out from under her mother's thumb, but has secret plans to bring Victoria down.  Rogers becomes friends with an informant named Alice. 

All of that works as is, even without any of the magic/fairy tale stuff.  It actually seems surprisingly fleshed out.  If A&E had started that show, would you have stepped aboard?  Do you think it could have done better and gotten another season?

As the season progresses, they could still include fan favorites like Anastasia, who could be in a coma in a high-security facility.  Eloise Gardiner could be a doctor that Victoria secretly employed to revive her daughter, but Eloise is actually a cult leader who makes a deal with Ivy.  Kelly can return from San Francisco, along with her daughter Robyn who could still be Alice's love interest.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by Camera One

[Speakeasy]

It could work, you could do a lot with Eloise being a cult leader, make her a doctor who's lost her license for unethical practices then she sets up some kind of alternative healing therapy group that's actually a cover for her to test her unsafe drugs on vulnerable young people, and there's her connection to poor Alice. And Victoria is using her influence to protect this shady shit in the hopes that it will provide a cure for her daughter. I think this could really work.

The thing I'm less certain of is Lucy bringing her favourite author to town to help her and, more importantly, him agreeing to stay and help on the basis of him being smitten with her mother. I'm also wondering what kind of hold Victoria would need to have over Jacinda to make her stay under her thumb as an adult, and what her motivation would be for doing so (maybe Jacinda's father set up a trust for her and/or Lucy and Victoria is trying to get her hands on it by manipulating them, I don't know)

[KAOS Agent]

I don't know if the storyline is enough to interest me, but they'd definitely need a better cast. At the very least, they'd need to bring in a slice of bread to generate some chemistry for Jacinda.

[Speakeasy]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

I don't know if the storyline is enough to interest me, but they'd definitely need a better cast. At the very least, they'd need to bring in a slice of bread to generate some chemistry for Jacinda.

Everyone but O'Donoghue, Kane and Reynolds can go, based on their performances this season. It's not that everyone else was bad but none of the others stood out, not even Carlyle, as far as I'm concerned.

Just out of curiosity, I'm in agreement with most of the forum (I think)that Ramirez was probably the worst of the new arrivals. Does anyone have a fantasy recast for her role?

[daxx]

1 hour ago, Speakeasy said:

Just out of curiosity, I'm in agreement with most of the forum (I think)that Ramirez was probably the worst of the new arrivals. Does anyone have a fantasy recast for her role?

Tessa Thompson, she’s pretty darn good on Westworld and I think she’s got a good look for that role.

[Camera One]

On 10/28/2019 at 7:30 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I wonder, does that world also have a Magic Bayou?

I was watching "The Little Mermaid" animated movie/musical thing last night, and maybe the Magic Bayou was where Ariel and Eric were in the rowboat and the animals in the swamp sang "Kiss The Girl".

[KAOS Agent]

I was watching "Broken" last night and it reminded of how badly this show always fell down the real emotional consequences of things. Emma was absolutely right when she told her mother that they sent her away to save everyone. What was done was not necessarily in Emma's best interests. Yes, she would have been murdered then, so by that point it was necessary, but Snowing had plenty of other options that they never explored because they could always fall back on Emma being the Saviour.

That they doubled down on this in "Awake" and explicitly had Snowing slam the door on their daughter while acknowledging that they were sacrificing her happiness for others burns me up. At least in "Broken" Emma was allowed to have feelings about it. By the time S6 rolled around, Emma was expected to not even have a reaction. They wrote a story that should have been extremely emotionally charged and then just shrugged it all off like it meant nothing. How boring. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/6/2019 at 1:19 AM, Camera One said:

I was thinking... what if Season 7 had been a new pilot, but without any of the supernatural elements?  Do you think it could have worked as a new show?

Maybe the concept might have worked as a kind of night-time soap, but the execution was way too scattershot and inconsistent for it to have worked. It would have been even more obvious that they were lurching from idea to idea without the unifying thread of the flashbacks leading to the curse. There would have been a few episodes about the evil developer, then suddenly a plot setting up a serial killer while also introducing the mysterious investor, and then solving the serial killer plot and someone else becomes the villain. I know I probably wouldn't care to watch it, but I don't generally watch dramas that don't have some kind of supernatural element.

On 11/6/2019 at 3:33 AM, Speakeasy said:

The thing I'm less certain of is Lucy bringing her favourite author to town to help her and, more importantly, him agreeing to stay and help on the basis of him being smitten with her mother.

If Lucy still thought Henry was her father, they'd need to put her in therapy (and it still is a problem while they didn't know there was supernatural stuff going on that no one seemed all that concerned that she was fixated on a total stranger being her father).

19 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

They wrote a story that should have been extremely emotionally charged and then just shrugged it all off like it meant nothing.

That pretty much describes much of the series after season one. The characters were never allowed to have honest emotional reactions to these major, intense events. They just hit the emotional reset button and moved on. The next episode would be someone else's centric, so we couldn't focus on the emotional response to events in the previous episode. I still can't believe they didn't even have an emotional reaction to a man coming back from the dead. It was like "ok, whatever, moving on."

On 11/5/2019 at 9:46 AM, KingOfHearts said:

Now that you say that, it feels like a missed opportunity for Zelena to be stuck as Zarian for all of 4A. She, of all people, should've had a very strong opinion on what was going on with Ingrid, Elsa, and Emma since their backgrounds were so similar when it came to magic. 

Of course, that would have required them to know Zelena was even around during 4A, which I'm pretty sure they didn't know at the time. But it is a pity they didn't have Zelena around for a plot about accepting your magic when others don't accept it.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

But it is a pity they didn't have Zelena around for a plot about accepting your magic when others don't accept it.

The show lasted 7 seasons and it's still unclear how the regular peasant in the Enchanted Forest viewed magic.  Or how the regular Storybrooke resident felt about living in a modern town vs. returning home.  It really reinforces that the show is basically a gameboard with constantly moving pieces but you have no idea what is on the board itself or the actual rules because they keep changing and the board keeps changing and all the pieces are about as fleshed out as the Queen's face on a chess set.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Camera One

[Speakeasy]

On 11/6/2019 at 1:40 PM, daxx said:

Tessa Thompson, she’s pretty darn good on Westworld and I think she’s got a good look for that role.

Good choice!

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

The show lasted 7 seasons and it's still unclear how the regular peasant in the Enchanted Forest viewed magic.  Or how the regular Storybrooke resident felt about living in a modern town vs. returning home.  It really reinforces that the show is basically a gameboard with constantly moving pieces but you have no idea what is on the board itself or the actual rules because they keep changing and the board keeps changing and all the pieces are about as fleshed out as the Queen's face on a chess set.

The ordinary people weren't important, it's a story about family relationships and personal growth (which was also oddly handled in many ways) not about government or society. I think the writers, and a good number of the viewers, don't really worry about the fact that these characters are supposed to have civic responsibilities. 

I find this a bit odd because the show creates a new type of society with the fantasy land people forced to live (kind of) in modern America in a weird existence that's neither really one place or the other, but there you go. I even find the absurdity of the ending to be an interesting springboard from a world building standpoint because now you've linked up who knows how many fantastical worlds and introduced them to modern technology. I've tried looking for fanfic that continues after season 7 that imagines what the reign of The Good Queen might actually entail, but it looks for the most part like soppy romance and 'domestic fluff' as far as the eye can see.

[KAOS Agent]

There was an excellent fan fic that detailed the lives of the random citizens in Storybrooke that took into account the details we were given about society on the show. One of the recurring  characters (each chapter was about a different person) was Regina's assistant in the mayor's office and her reactions to in story events were always enjoyable.

The show did introduce numerous storylines about civic responsibility. There was the sheriff's election in S1. Regina had city council meetings and there was something about Henry's castle being torn down as part of her mayoral push for something better (remember guys, Regina is the best. mother. ever.) There was some kind of attempt to show a melding of the two worlds in 2.02, but they never really took it any further than that. Snow took over the mayor role and held listening sessions or something. Then Snow was hauled out of her home days after giving birth to fix the electric plant because somehow that's the mayor's job - maternity leave be damned. They did make the running of Storybrooke a part of the show when it suited them. 

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

One of the recurring  characters (each chapter was about a different person) was Regina's assistant in the mayor's office and her reactions to in story events were always enjoyable.

Now that you mention it, it's a little weird the Mayor didn't really have an assistant on the show. Sure, she had lackeys like Graham and Sidney, but they didn't get her coffee or make appointments. Did the town hall not have a front desk or any other employees? Maybe if there was an actual Mayor's assistant, Snow wouldn't have been so overwhelmed.

It's kind of random, but I thought it was cool when someone pointed out that one of the reporters in the Mayor's office in 1x08 was the blind witch from the Pilot episode. Show them react to major events, Nikki/Paolo style.

Edited November 9, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

The ordinary people weren't important, it's a story about family relationships and personal growth (which was also oddly handled in many ways) not about government or society.

I'm willing to accept fairy tale/Disney levels of worldbuilding up to a point. I would like a little more development in how they handle civic matters in a small town where multiple kings/queens/royalty live, and I'd have loved to see more of the mixed-up world you'd get with fairytale people living in modern America, but I recognize that this isn't the story they wanted to tell. But when they have multiple storylines focused on people struggling because their magical powers aren't accepted by others, in between stories in which nobody seems to have any opinion at all about magic, there really needs to have been some thought put into what the society thinks about magic as part of the stories about family relationships and personal growth. Is magic universally feared or hated? Are magic users isolated? Do the people see a difference between good magic and bad magic? Are there places that are more magic-friendly? They just seemed to pull that "Oh no, you have magic!" storyline out of nowhere when they needed to make us feel bad about a character. Even in Zelena's story it was wildly inconsistent, where she lived in a land governed by good witches (and a fake wizard), but her foster father thought she was wicked for having magic and she was teased and bullied because she had magic. So, did the people hate their rulers? Or there was Snow, seemingly totally okay with Emma's magic, but then suddenly fearing it until she suddenly didn't anymore.

43 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Now that you mention it, it's a little weird the Mayor didn't really have an assistant on the show.

The city hall was essentially empty, with just Regina. I really can't imagine her making her own coffee, doing her own typing (was there even a typewriter or computer in her office?), making her own copies, doing her own filing during the years she didn't have magic. Likewise, it seems odd that she didn't have any servants at home. She's the type who would have at least had a daytime housekeeper to do all the cleaning and laundry and look after Henry between the time he got home from school and the time she got home from work. That seems a wasted opportunity. Really, it's probably what the curse should have done to Snow, and would have fit in with the Snow White fairytale, where she was the housekeeper to the dwarfs. Why would Regina give her enemy that the curse was aimed at a reasonably fulfilling job as a teacher instead of making Snow her personal slave, spending her endless days scrubbing Regina's toilets, sweeping and mopping her floors, doing her laundry, and generally putting up with all of Regina's cruel whims?

[KingOfHearts]

17 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Really, it's probably what the curse should have done to Snow, and would have fit in with the Snow White fairytale, where she was the housekeeper to the dwarfs. Why would Regina give her enemy that the curse was aimed at a reasonably fulfilling job as a teacher instead of making Snow her personal slave, spending her endless days scrubbing Regina's toilets, sweeping and mopping her floors, doing her laundry, and generally putting up with all of Regina's cruel whims?

That makes too much sense. Even in the Disney film, Snow White was doing chores for the Evil Queen. Maybe it would've felt too much like Cinderella, but it would've been a better punishment than being an elementary school teacher.

Quote

The city hall was essentially empty, with just Regina. I really can't imagine her making her own coffee, doing her own typing (was there even a typewriter or computer in her office?), making her own copies, doing her own filing during the years she didn't have magic.

Her dad was her personal attendant back in EF, so why wouldn't she have someone else do it in SB? It never would've worked in the story, but I could imagine a Cursed!Zelena being the put-on assistant.

Edited November 9, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Her dad was her personal attendant back in EF, so why wouldn't she have someone else do it in SB? It never would've worked in the story, but I could imagine a Cursed!Zelena being the put-on assistant.

If they thought being the household maid was too Cinderella for Snow, they could have made her the mayor's assistant, always having to get the coffee, and get it just right, getting criticized for everything, having to anticipate Regina's every need. And then Regina giving that evil grin about how much she was enjoying it every time Snow's back was turned.

I suspect the teacher thing was an artifact of the original plan for Mary Margaret to be a nun and for Charming to have died in the pilot. I've wondered if they even filmed the pilot with that in mind and only later added the little tag at the end showing Charming in a coma in the hospital. I don't think there's anything in the pilot that would directly contradict the idea of Mary Margaret being a nun. I think she even wears a cross necklace.

Though, still, that's not what I'd think of as a punishment, since it's also a reasonably fulfilling life for someone who has a vocation. You'd think Regina would have wanted to be able to grind Snow under her heel on a daily basis.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's kind of random, but I thought it was cool when someone pointed out that one of the reporters in the Mayor's office in 1x08 was the blind witch from the Pilot episode. 

That would have been fleshing out of the town which I think is necessary in shows that take place in a smaller town.  It needs to feel like a real place.  Regina should have had allies and lackeys like the blind witch, or her black guards, or as you all suggested, servants.  

Ditto for Snowing's knights after the Curse broke.  Where were they?  Plotlines were written assuming they weren't entities after the fact.  Shouldn't these Guards be willingly helping prior to major crises such as the Shattered Sight Curse instead of the ridiculous idea that Mary Margaret and one other "hero" could run all around town evacuating people?

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Though, still, that's not what I'd think of as a punishment, since it's also a reasonably fulfilling life for someone who has a vocation. You'd think Regina would have wanted to be able to grind Snow under her heel on a daily basis.

That pointed to the changing and inconsistent concept of how much control Regina had in designing the Curse.  Since some fates she directly determined (eg. Maleficent and Mad Hatter).  But for Snow, the main target of the Curse, she seemed to have left it up to the algorithm of the Curse.

At least it made more sense than in Season 7, when Drizella and Gothel put themselves in subservient positions for years while their Coven "family" members were without memories

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm willing to accept fairy tale/Disney levels of worldbuilding up to a point. I would like a little more development in how they handle civic matters in a small town where multiple kings/queens/royalty live, and I'd have loved to see more of the mixed-up world you'd get with fairytale people living in modern America, but I recognize that this isn't the story they wanted to tell. But when they have multiple storylines focused on people struggling because their magical powers aren't accepted by others, in between stories in which nobody seems to have any opinion at all about magic, there really needs to have been some thought put into what the society thinks about magic as part of the stories about family relationships and personal growth. Is magic universally feared or hated? Are magic users isolated? Do the people see a difference between good magic and bad magic? Are there places that are more magic-friendly? They just seemed to pull that "Oh no, you have magic!" storyline out of nowhere when they needed to make us feel bad about a character.

That is where I have a problem with it  - when the prevailing worldviews of ordinary people in these fantasy worlds affected the storyline and the viewers were supposed to accept a premise depending on what was convenient that week.  

The example with Zelena's magic was a good one because the story depended on the fact that the society in Oz feared magic and she faced discrimination, yet the rule by the three Good Witches directly contradicted that.

Then, there were cases such as jaded Snow declaring that love at first sight and true love's kiss didn't exist.  So how prevalent was true love in the Enchanted Forest?  It seemed rare in Season 1 since Rumple bottled Snowing's very special True Love.  But in subsequent seasons, anyone and their biking partner could have it.    Some characters seemed surprised by magic and some characters had very muted reactions like they were used to it.  So did peasant David believe in magic and true love?  Did it have anything to do with this hopeful ideas about marrying for love?  It makes it harder to buy character backstories if we didn't understand the society they lived in with the changing rules. 

Did regular people believe on wishes on a star or fairy godmothers?  If so, people would be more hopeful, but usually Enchanted Forest characters suffered horrible fates and no one came to help them.

The show in most of the seasons had Regina as the Mayor and everyone accepted it.  So did this mean everyone in Storybrooke was happy staying there and fine with the rule?  Were the minor villains satisfied and not wanting to cause problems?  But then they had episodes like King George rallying people behind a hunt for Red, so it seemed like this dissenting element did exist in town.  Yet there were zero problems when Snowing and Regina are away in 3A.  As mentioned above, when Regina was the Mayor, the people were generally mute.  But when Snow became the Mayor, suddenly they held the Mayor to account for a power outage.  Whatever was convenient for the plot seemed to be the rationale behind how the population would act in any given situation.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

World building, sadly enough for a show that took place in multiple different universes, was never something that this show was interesting. I mean, it took them to about, what, season to actually give one of the main settings of the show a damn name? That was hardly even used?

[KAOS Agent]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Did regular people believe on wishes on a star or fairy godmothers?  If so, people would be more hopeful, but usually Enchanted Forest characters suffered horrible fates and no one came to help them.

Wasn't there an episode where Cinderella was totally disbelieving in magic? And by that time we knew that her kingdom and Snow's were really close (Snow & David attended that ball the same day she commented how magic didn't exist), so how could she have missed the crazy magic wielding Evil Queen in the kingdom next door? At the very least, her kingdom should have been flooded with refugees fleeing the carnage and everyone should have been fearful about Regina getting ideas and invading their lands as well. None of it works if you put even the slightest thought into it.