A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[KingOfHearts]

Half the time, the characters are cartoons. They can be thrown around like ragdolls, recite evil monologues, and pursue magical shenanigans. In the other half, they're humans. They have deep emotions and a realized sense of mortality. Within the premise of this show, your favorite fairy tales actually happened in real life. It's difficult to explain away how such ridiculous details could happen, even in a Game of Thrones-style fantasy world. They're silly. Why would the Evil Queen poison Snow White with an apple when she could just walk in and stab her with a knife? Your only option is to bullshit your way through. But, that doesn't always mesh well with our world, where that logic doesn't work. The writers tried to apply our world's rules to fairy tale land's, and vice versa. What happens in the Enchanted Forest should stay in the Enchanted Forest. You can't have ultra-realistic characters perfectly in sync with Cruella or Peter Pan like that's just normal.

[Rumsy4]

33 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Or Emma returning from the time travel and seeing Regina at her worst, torturing Marian and executing Snow, and being instantly not only okay with Regina, but forcing Marian to meet her and talking about how much she's changed.

I lost a lot of respect for Emma for this. Characters who started kissing Regina's ass, like Snow, Emma, and Henry, started to look like morons with no self-respect. This was not a lesson is grace and forgiveness. This is not someone who decides to forgive the person who wronged them the most. These idiots started accepting that Regina had not only changed (even as she continued to do shady things), but that she had suffered the most, and even that the "book was wrong" about her, and that she deserved a happy ending. And I still don't get why in-story. I just see the writers pulling the strings.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

You can't have ultra-realistic characters perfectly in sync with Cruella or Peter Pan like that's just normal.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way. You can create characters that are crazy and over the top and have ridiculous fantasy things happen to and around them, , BUT are also very human with hopes and dreams and feelings and motivations and such. I watched a thing on YouTube the other day about why the Marvel Cinematic Universe has been so successful, and one of the big reasons is that "they made people who live impossible lives relatible to the audience", and I think that nails it. Just because someone is on a quest to find a magic apple to wake up their sleeping One True Love doesn't mean that they cant also be a character that feels very human feelings and struggles with very human problems. The key is to find that balance, and show characters that, despite living fantastic lives, are still understandable to an audience. You might not know whats its like to save your OTL from a sleeping curse with a magic kiss, but i think people can relate to being desperate to save a person you love. It all comes back to character, and making their world and their motivations and feelings real, even in a universe that is so obviously unreal. 

This show had an interesting premise, in that they could combine that magic background of princesses and evil queens and such and show how those two worlds worked together, and how you could apply fairy tale logic to real world situations, and vice versa. Or, as I mentioned, you could focus immediately on the humanity and less on the cartoon motivations (child tells a well meaning secret? Destroy a nation!), but none of that really happened. 

[KingOfHearts]

Here's an interesting question to ask y'all - if you had to add another character to the main cast in place of Robin or Zelena, what kind would it be? I don't necessarily mean what franchise you'd like to take from, but what kind of character would have worked well against everyone else over a long period of time? Personally, I would have preferred another outsider from the real world to react to what was going on with fresh eyes. Since Emma got desensitized, someone was needed to keep things grounded with one foot in reality. Lily, Neal, Greg, and Tamara were opportunities for that, but those were quickly wasted. Robin and Zelena were both tacked on to prop up Regina, when you think about it. I wish we could gotten someone around S3-S5 who inserted themselves into the show as well as Hook did in S2. (Instead of guest-star-palooza.)

Edited April 6, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm finding it hard to think of new characters that would fit well into the show and yet have worthwhile storylines that hadn't been done already by 3B.  I don't know how they could have introduced a newcomer in an organic way. 

I wouldn't have added another character in 3B.  Robin's only connection was to Regina, so it's mostly her screentime which would have been affected.  I would have had her making amends and giving back the hearts.  I would have explored Storybrooke deeper and used some of the supporting characters more (eg. Granny, Grumpy and people wanting to go back, use Aurora's appearances to show politics, explore what's happening in Blue's House of Nuns).  

Though the problem with no new characters is no villain in 3B.  That was an important role that Zelena filled, although it was written so poorly.  Or maybe the flashbacks could have them just establishing peace in the Enchanted Forest again.  That wouldn't have necessarily needed one giant villain.  

Another alternative is that in 3B, the characters go to Oz and they meet Zelena there.  That might have worked better and we could have explored Oz more.  I think Zelena would have been a better character if she didn't have to be a jealous sister to Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

One of the ongoing issues with introducing new characters every arc is that you have to explain why we haven't seen them before. (Especially when the new characters deeply connected to the mains in some way, such as in parentage or important past encounters.) If the cast is journeying to another world, it's easy to meet newbies such as Hades for the first time. But on the flip side, you've got characters that have been there all along, like Zelena or Ingrid. When a show runs for seven long seasons, you can't just keep going back to the same well. You're forced to put the characters into new situations they haven't been in before. Attempting to connect new and old characters through retcons is lazy. Instead of developing Zelena was a rival to Regina in her own right, the writers shoehorned her in as this long lost sister. We didn't need that. 

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Here's an interesting question to ask y'all - if you had to add another character to the main cast in place of Robin or Zelena, what kind would it be?

I think I would just like them to have really dealt with Robin Hood or the Wicked Witch. Really use the Robin Hood story without him being a love interest or prop for Regina. Maybe he could have been rallying the people having to hide in the woods after Zelena took over (or, as I was suggesting earlier, move Cora to season 3 and have her be the one who was in charge when they were sent back with the curse reverse). Let him be an outlaw freedom fighter who finds himself in the odd position of working with the royals, then actually remember that he doesn't have the curse download when he's sent with them to Storybrooke, so we get some of the fish-out-of-water stuff.

Meanwhile, Zelena never really seemed like the Wicked Witch of the West. She was an entirely new character who got that name stuck on her and who barely had anything to do with the original story. If they were going to do that story, I agree with those who said to let the characters go to Oz -- maybe a freak tornado picks up Regina's mansion or Granny's or the Jolly Roger and takes them there. Actually use the source material and don't dilute it by making it all about Regina. Maybe our characters end up in the Dorothy role of having to defeat the Wicked Witch in order to find a way back home.

Really, you could do this with most of the characters -- actually do something with the Maleficent/Aurora story, separating that from the Queens of Darkness and not making it all about Regina or throwing in a lame eggbaby retcon. Maleficent actually was in Storybrooke all that time, so it just would have taken someone doing the spell (maybe she had a minion in town?) to make her more corporeal once Philip and Aurora were in town. She had a gripe with Regina, had reason to be mad at Rumple, Charming, and Emma, and Hook seemed to know her.

But I guess that wouldn't be ongoing main cast characters. I don't think they'd keep that kind of Wicked Witch around. Robin, maybe? I don't think they needed more main cast, since they couldn't manage to write for the whole main cast, anyway. I don't know that there was any role that they needed Robin to fill, other than Regina's love interest. There was no skill or viewpoint he brought to the mix. Zelena feels so shoehorned. I like the actress, but maybe she'd be better playing a different character. It would have been nice to have more characters who weren't somewhat reformed villains. She might have been fun as, say, a snarky princess -- like the Princess and the Pea, the Once Upon a Mattress version that a very young Carol Burnett played on Broadway, where she's loud, opinionated, and gutsy but talks about how delicate she is. (Ooh, and I think I've just come up with a character I need to file away and use.)

[KingOfHearts]

I've had this story idea lingering in my head for a while, where Emma had gone to Oz with Henry during the Missing Year. (Yes, that makes her son Toto.) Her journey would be re-discovering where her home was and trying to reunite with her family after learning that Zelena is out to get them in the Enchanted Forest. She would meet Glinda and learn more about her light magic powers. I thought it would be interesting because memoryless Emma and Henry would get a magical realm dropped on them instead of gradually deciding to believe. Throwing Emma into a completely different world would be a lot to take in for her. 

It would all be a mad race to get everybody in the same realm. I thought perhaps Neal would get to New York somehow and meet with Hook. Maybe interrogate Walsh? I'd like to see Emma's three lovers all having to work together. 

I realize my idea is all pretty batshit, but so is this show. You obviously wouldn't be able to fit it into 11 episodes. I've considered writing a canon divergent fic of it. 

Quote

I think I would just like them to have really dealt with Robin Hood or the Wicked Witch. Really use the Robin Hood story without him being a love interest or prop for Regina. Maybe he could have been rallying the people having to hide in the woods after Zelena took over (or, as I was suggesting earlier, move Cora to season 3 and have her be the one who was in charge when they were sent back with the curse reverse). Let him be an outlaw freedom fighter who finds himself in the odd position of working with the royals, then actually remember that he doesn't have the curse download when he's sent with them to Storybrooke, so we get some of the fish-out-of-water stuff.

The answer is probably don't kill Neal. We didn't need to add more main characters, but it wasn't worth getting rid of him. He still had a boatload of potential. It's just that the writers had more interest in giving Regina more prop-ups.

Edited April 6, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Neal shouldn't have died. He was connected to a lot of characters, but was only used for cheap angst. The writers didn't want to redeem Rumple, and for that Neal had to die. He wasn't as tolerant of his father's BS as Belle was. The writers kept Rumple as a villain until the end of season 6, and then made him stick to his reform off-screen, in a land where he and Belle were the only two inhabitants. That was one way to cheat out of writing a decent redemption arc for a villain. 

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Rumsy4 said:

Neal shouldn't have died. He was connected to a lot of characters, but was only used for cheap angst. The writers didn't want to redeem Rumple, and for that Neal had to die. He wasn't as tolerant of his father's BS as Belle was. The writers kept Rumple as a villain until the end of season 6, and then made him stick to his reform off-screen, in a land where he and Belle were the only two inhabitants. That was one way to cheat out of writing a decent redemption arc for a villain. 

I would have liked to see Neal trying to parent Henry and his reaction to Captain Swan. It might be controversial, but I'd rather that Rumple stayed dead after the 3A finale. His character got wrapped up with a neat little bow. 

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The answer is probably don't kill Neal. We didn't need to add more main characters, but it wasn't worth getting rid of him. He still had a boatload of potential.

Oh, yes. I'd have preferred to have Neal over Robin or Zelena. I didn't really like him as a person, but he was interesting in being a gray character -- not an evil villain, but shady enough that he wasn't really a hero or good guy (and since I liked that aspect of him, the later canonization of him into the Heroic St. Neal was even more annoying). He had a foot firmly placed in the "real" world and a foot in the storybook world because of his childhood there and his years in Neverland. His relationship with his father was the basis of the entire show, since the curse was to reach him, and ditching him so soon after his father found him turned him into a human McGuffin. I was intrigued by his relationship with Hook. There were huge gaps in his life story that never got explored -- his years in Neverland, his return to our world, his transition from Bae to Neal, even how he turned his life around (or did he?) after Emma. And while I'm generally not a huge fan of romantic triangles, I wouldn't have minded seeing a bit of that with him, Hook, and Emma. Not the typical "gee, which guy will she choose?" thing because I think she was pretty clear that she was done with Neal, but there was Hook stepping back to give Neal the chance to be a father to his son and be a family, and there was the relationship those two had with each other that pre-dated Emma. Just a lot of complex emotional stuff. I also kind of hated that Hook "won" by default, since Neal died, and not because Emma had the opportunity to truly evaluate the two men and make a choice based on what was best for her.

Neal could have died later in the series (since he was enough of an idiot to get himself into that kind of trouble), but it was way too early when they killed him.

[Rumsy4]

I am reading a very interesting canon-divergence fanfic that is set after Season 3A, except Pan was defeated before he cast the Dark Curse. So, everyone stays in Storybrooke. It is a Captain Swan fic, but Neal has a very interesting role in the story. All the characterizations are spot-on, and it feels like something that could happened in the show with a different set of (more competent) writers. Here's the link.

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would have liked to see Neal trying to parent

I think this is another reason Neal was killed off. Henry already had two mothers. Adding his father into the mix would have changed the dynamics. The writers probably didn't want to deal with Regina having to share Henry with yet another parent.

[daxx]

32 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I am reading a very interesting canon-divergence fanfic that is set after Season 3A, except Pan was defeated before he cast the Dark Curse. So, everyone stays in Storybrooke

I’m reading this one too. It’s very good.

[tennisgurl]

Sounds promising, I might check that out @Rumsy4! I've been hurting for good fic lately. 

This might be controversial, but I kind of wanted them to explore the concept of the Author more. Not the actual guy, or his Dumbledork predecessor, but the idea of an Author itself. Since the beginning, I wanted to know about who wrote Henry's book, and why the Land Without Magic had versions of our main characters, that were similar to their actual lives, but not quite. I wanted to know how that happened, and if this meant that there were people going to other dimensions and basing stories on what they saw, or if there were people with the power to actually create whole worlds and people. Either one could be fascinating, and lead to tons of interesting conflict and world building, and would delve into the meta fiction multiverse that the show had been skirting around since day one. Instead, we got a million more questions then answers (and not in a good way) and a weasily little dork screwing with everyone and creepily stalking the main characters. Plus, it was mostly used to prop up author surrogate Henry, and as a cheap for Regina to whine about how unfair it was that she could never get a happy ending, and to pass the buck on responsibility for her actions. Again. 

Now, the only joy I get out of that stupid arc is that whenever the guy who played the Author shows up in stuff (and he does a lot) I blame all terrible story developments or characters doing stupid or asshole OOC stuff on him. Hell, I do that with anything now. Like, last nights Arrow? Spent the night shaking my first at that dickhead Issac. Truly he is history's greatest monster.  

[Rumsy4]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Truly he is history's greatest monster.  

Seriously! He has a knack for playing that type of "ordinary" annoying character you want to bean over the head, and who causes a lot of damage while looking ineffectual and whiny. 

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Neal could have died later in the series (since he was enough of an idiot to get himself into that kind of trouble), but it was way too early when they killed him.

I think once they brought Neal on canvas that they realized they had no idea how to write for Rumple when his MacGuffin was right in front of him so they killed him off.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I am reading a very interesting canon-divergence fanfic that is set after Season 3A, except Pan was defeated before he cast the Dark Curse. So, everyone stays in Storybrooke. It is a Captain Swan fic, but Neal has a very interesting role in the story. All the characterizations are spot-on, and it feels like something that could happened in the show with a different set of (more competent) writers.

I don't normally read a lot of fanfic, but it's been one of those days when I don't feel like doing much else, so I got sucked in, and I have to say that it's very satisfying to see some of those things actually addressed. It's a pity the writers rushed off to the next "plot plot plot" instead of taking some time to deal with the issues they set up.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would have liked to see Neal trying to parent Henry and his reaction to Captain Swan. It might be controversial, but I'd rather that Rumple stayed dead after the 3A finale. His character got wrapped up with a neat little bow. 

I wish Rumple had stayed dead too. He got his big Hero moment. He defeated his father and saved his family choosing their life over his own and his own power.  I love that scene and hated so much everything he did afterwards because it undid that. It was such a good moment and a very good way for his story to end.          

[andromeda331]

Neal had so much potential and so much of his story (basically all of it) never used. Between him and Rumple he should be upset over learning everything his father did to find him, the manipulation and Curse, and over the death of his mother. Neal and Hook with Hook selling out Neal and turning him over to Pan and if they ever ran into each other again since then plus his mother ran off with Hook, when they met again he seemed interested now in Emma. Neal and Emma I still hate that they down played Neal sending Emma to jail for his crimes. She should have been mad at him for that and giving up her son. Neal and Henry, seeing them try to build a relationship, Neal should have completely objected Henry being around Regina after his own experience with Rumple and Neal and Henry could have bonded over having a parent they love who is evil and does a lot of bad things. Neal easily could have been working for or even founded the anti-magic group. That makes sense given how much he hates magic. Now weird is it for him to be back around magical people again? Tinkerbell and Neal were they friends or more or what? How did he become Neal? Was he harden over his experiences in Neverland? Over all of his experiences from his father, to being sold out by Hook? There was so much to with Neal but nope did none of it.      

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But imagine how it could have worked with the original cast after we'd had more than a season to get to know them, and suddenly they had new cursed identities in a new place, mixed in with other people so they didn't necessarily find each other. Like, if the attempt to redo the curse to reach Emma had brought them to New York, and Zelena's tinkering with the curse didn't just erase their recent memories but actually gave them new identities. With Emma still having her memories altered, she could have passed her parents on the street without any recognition. Only Hook, who came without a curse, would have known everyone, and it would have been interesting seeing him trying to find a way to get everyone back to normal. Once he gave Emma the potion, the two of them might have had to try to work to bring them all together again, but none of them knew who the threat was, and in a city with other people around, it would have been less obvious that the one new person was the villain.

Bringing this over from 2.0

I thought they would do a variation of this in season 3 which I was so disappointed in the Wicked arc.

What I would have really like to see in 3B  was the show turned upside down.

Have Emma and Henry in NY with the altered memories that she'd raised him.  Have everyone who had been cursed to Storybrooke back in the EF with no memories past the purple smoke.  Snow and Charming remember sending their baby through the wardrobe but nothing beyond that.  Regina is back to her EQ-ness and Rumple all glittery gold.  Only Hook (and I guess Neal) remember because he wasn't cursed originally.   Hook somehow manages to get Snowing to finance a mission to bring their daughter back to the EF.  Then the bulk of the season is spent with Emma and Henry in the EF with actual full blown fairy tale versions of their family and trying to wrap their minds around that.  It even would give EQ the opportunity to redo her decisions and make different choices and maybe really redeem herself.

I actually really believed the above was where they were going with the 3A mid season finale.

What I thought would have been brilliant, but never really expected, was that they could pretend like they built Offscreensville on purpose and use S1-S2, and some frozen in time Storybrooke, as fodder for the flashbacks.  I would have actually liked to have seen how Regina raising Henry in a frozen in time town actually worked.  Parallel friction in EF with the missing familial moments as the Charmings formed a family in Storybrooke.

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It might be controversial, but I'd rather that Rumple stayed dead after the 3A finale. His character got wrapped up with a neat little bow. 

This got me thinking and for me, there were no worthwhile Rumple scenes after 3A which made me go, "Oh, but what a shame if we would never have seen_________!"  His prisoner role in 3B was a bore, his pure heart in 4A was stupid, his villainous ways in 4B was as annoying as ever (to the point where I was actively cheering for Robin to let him die).  I have not been moved by a scene with Rumple since the 3A finale.  Every attempt at emotion, from the fake cry at the grave of Neal, to the ballroom dance scene with Belle, to the mangling of "Up!", fell flat and left me cold.

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think this is another reason Neal was killed off. Henry already had two mothers. Adding his father into the mix would have changed the dynamics. The writers probably didn't want to deal with Regina having to share Henry with yet another parent.

I never thought about that, and it's true.  A&E are proud of the "two moms" thing.  When in fact, it would have been more interesting to see Regina faced with sharing Henry with yet another person, someone who would/should have been appalled that his son's life was influenced by The Evil Queen.

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This might be controversial, but I kind of wanted them to explore the concept of the Author more. Not the actual guy, or his Dumbledork predecessor, but the idea of an Author itself. Since the beginning, I wanted to know about who wrote Henry's book, and why the Land Without Magic had versions of our main characters, that were similar to their actual lives, but not quite.

I was interested in the origin of the Storybook, but I would have been fine if it had no author, if a magical pen just recorded what happened.  The concept of the Author got so bad because of A&E deciding that the Author would somehow be able to dictate future events and control the lives of others.  That still doesn't make any sense.  If The Author had remained an Observer, that could have been more interesting to explore.  If Henry being an Author was so important, why has it been hardly mentioned in Season 7, when Henry is the lead character?

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Brigitte Hales exchange on Twitter.

Brigitte Hales @InkTankGirl    9h9 hours ago
Three years ago during staffing season I sat in this lobby nervously waiting to meet with the Once executives. This time an episode I wrote was playing on the TV. Dreams, people.‏
 
@dwsherlockfan   9h9 hours ago
And it all worked out! What was your interview with them like? I’m curious, because I imagine an interview to write for a show must have a few elements you don’t find in a basic job interview.

Brigitte Hales   @InkTankGirl   9h9 hours ago
They’re all different. They ask about your sensibility. What you think you can bring to a show. How your voice fits. Adam and Eddy asked if I minded writing in pairs and being in the room a lot.

Brigitte Hales   @InkTankGirl   8h8 hours ago
I learned so much it would be hard to boil it down to one takeaway, but I would say I came to appreciate the value of a team. We had to rely on each other b/c it was an impossible amount of work. Every episode was a group effort and better for it.

---------

I guess every episode being a group effort explains why it always felt like a cup of cold gumbo.   Though I'm surprised one of the requirements is "being in the room a lot" when the continuity is all over the place, like the writer of one episode never read the previous week's script.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Too many cooks spoil the broth, eh?

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Though I'm surprised one of the requirements is "being in the room a lot" when the continuity is all over the place, like the writer of one episode never read the previous week's script.

And hasn't there been a previous comment about how quiet their writers' room is? They were comparing it to the Wonderland room, which was noisy and full of people shouting ideas at each other. It's a group effort in which they don't really talk to each other and the room is quiet?

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

This got me thinking and for me, there were no worthwhile Rumple scenes after 3A which made me go, "Oh, but what a shame if we would never have seen_________!"

They wouldn't have been able to do the Dark One plot in 5A. There was some interesting stuff there, but I'd be willing to sacrifice it for entirely different storylines without Rumple. And I did love the bit where Belle kicked him out of town. Too bad it didn't stick.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

The concept of the Author got so bad because of A&E deciding that the Author would somehow be able to dictate future events and control the lives of others. 

And then wasn't supposed to be able to. The Author stuff was so all over the place. We still don't know how/why Merlin came up with the concept, why there would be a magic pen requiring dark Savior blood to work, why they'd give Authors the power to change lives but also forbid them to do so. The Author stuff didn't explain why these stories have been told over and over again, long before what we're seeing happened, and each version is different (that's one place where the multiverse concept makes some sense, if you consider maybe that there's the world with the Cinderella Perrault wrote about and the world with the Cinderella the Grimms wrote about and the one with the Cinderella Disney wrote about, etc.). And we still don't have an explanation behind those random pages that show up when they're needed, except the time when Hook sent one from the Underworld to Emma. Or what the purpose of these books is and how the books show up to the right people at the right time.

[Camera One]

35 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They wouldn't have been able to do the Dark One plot in 5A. There was some interesting stuff there, but I'd be willing to sacrifice it for entirely different storylines without Rumple. And I did love the bit where Belle kicked him out of town. Too bad it didn't stick.

I think they could have done it without Rumple.  The Vault of the Dark One could open somehow and the black cloud escapes, and Emma decides to take in the Darkness to save the town.  It could have been extremely similar.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And hasn't there been a previous comment about how quiet their writers' room is? They were comparing it to the Wonderland room, which was noisy and full of people shouting ideas at each other. It's a group effort in which they don't really talk to each other and the room is quiet?

It really is bizarre.  Are they all just sitting in the same room writing their various episodes?  Taking breaks to kowtow to the giant picture of Regina on the wall?

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Souris]

Bae as an adult had all the makings of a terrific character with a lot they could have done with him -- he had so many connections. I adored Bae. He should have been a major character in the story. But then they made him Neal, and I ended up despising him so much that I was thrilled they killed him off, in spite of all the wasted potential. He was a colossal miscast, and written as such an obnoxious, selfish jerk to Emma that he was like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. They made a bunch of missteps with him, not the least of which was having him ditch Emma and send her to jail just because August (another fingernails-on-chalkboard character for me) said it was for the best. There was just no coming back from that for me, especially after the way he laughed at her pain when they met again. I didn't give a rat's ass about his potential story after that.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

At the end of Season 2, he tells Emma that he is sorry for everything. It could count as a half-ass apology if he hadn't retracted it in later seasons by claiming he had no choice. If he had some self-awareness he would not have started pursuing Emma two minutes after Tamara's betrayal and Emma telling him she wished he was dead. But the writers prefered cheap angst and love-triangle drama over genuine character growth (which is anathema to them).

7 hours ago, Souris said:

not the least of which was having him ditch Emma and send him to jail just because August (another fingernails-on-chalkboard character for me) said it was for the best.

That's what I don't get. If he had just ditched Emma, it would not have been so terrible. If August had called the cops and Neal knew nothing about it, it would've have lessened a lot of his douchery. Emma would've still gone through the pain of giving birth to Henry in prison and having to put him up for adoption. So, I'm not sure if there would've still been a chance for her to get past that and get back together with him. But his whole spiel of "I had no choice" in later seasons would've been less grating. 

The writers' way of redeeming villains they love or jerks they've gotten bored with is not by having them actually do any repenting, but by white washing their crimes/mistakes and/or by dragging their victims to their level by making false equivalencies. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Souris said:

Bae as an adult had all the makings of a terrific character with a lot they could have done with him -- he had so many connections. I adored Bae. He should have been a major character in the story. But then they made him Neal, and I ended up despising him so much that I was thrilled they killed him off, in spite of all the wasted potential. He was a colossal miscast, and written as such an obnoxious, selfish jerk to Emma that he was like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. They made a bunch of missteps with him, not the least of which was having him ditch Emma and send her to jail just because August (another fingernails-on-chalkboard character for me) said it was for the best. There was just no coming back from that for me, especially after the way he laughed at her pain when they met again. I didn't give a rat's ass about his potential story after that.

This is where I found the character interesting while also not liking him. If the show had treated him like he was a jerk, it could still have worked. The problem I had was the abrupt switch to the "I had no choice" line and everyone accepting it, plus the retroactive St. Neal the Great Hero, who loved all of us and we loved him. I still get the vibe that A&E didn't really want to write him out, that maybe that was strongly encouraged by the network, and this was their way of making it up to him, since the casting was their choice, bringing in a friend.

That's where that fanfic linked above is interesting. It shows just how easy it is to fix so many of the problems in the show. The setup is there for interesting conflicts that make sense. If the characters are allowed to breathe and to act like people with understandable motivations, it fixes so much without really changing the big-picture plot. That story is so different, and yet so much of the same stuff happens that it doesn't seem to change the outcome at all. Plus, there are actual reasons for some of the things that seem a bit out of character.

Though there is the one thing I'd forgotten about fanfic that can get annoying -- those stories that take years to tell and never quite finish. I get all "two years, and you still haven't finished this? I've written five books in that time" about it.

Anyway, Neal might have been interesting if Emma had been allowed to react to him like someone would react to an ex who screwed her over more than a decade ago, which is not an abrupt "I love you!" after he's been rude and dismissive of her instincts and immediately after his fiancee -- whom he'd been defending to Emma up to that point -- just tried to kill them. And if her parents had been allowed to react to them the way parents would react to learning someone got their daughter pregnant as a teenager and then abandoned her (even if they didn't know all the details, it was pretty obvious that Emma was a teenager when he got her pregnant, and he was likely an adult at that time, and he wasn't part of her life in the aftermath). Henry might have started out with hero worship because he was so hungry for a father figure, but he would have seen the cracks in the facade. What was the point in Hook's "I'm going to back off and give you a chance to screw it up for yourself" stance if that didn't actually end up happening? (It's stuff like this that makes me feel that Neal's death wasn't planned that far in advance.) The problem with the way Neal was handled was that he was written as a very gray character, but there's no room for anything other than black or white, and everyone ended up reacting to him like he was the whitest of white. He even apparently got to go straight to heaven without a stint in the Underworld, in spite of dying while trying to reunite with his son but never reuniting with his son. Wouldn't that have counted as "unfinished business"?

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Though there is the one thing I'd forgotten about fanfic that can get annoying -- those stories that take years to tell and never quite finish. I get all "two years, and you still haven't finished this? I've written five books in that time" about it.

We don't get paid for it, for one thing. ;-)

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

We don't get paid for it, for one thing. ;-)

Well, true. And there are those pesky jobs. But still, there's that "Hey, wait, that's it? And it started two years ago? And was last updated a month ago?" after you spend all day reading something, only to find it's not finished yet. I still haven't gotten over a couple of Firefly stories that just stopped midway through and were never updated, and after that I kind of drifted away from reading fanfic. And now I may fall back into the rabbit hole because the fanfic seems more accurate to the characters than the series is these days. You know it's bad when you're looking forward to the actual episode ending so you can get back to the story you're reading.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I still get the vibe that A&E didn't really want to write him out, that maybe that was strongly encouraged by the network, and this was their way of making it up to him, since the casting was their choice, bringing in a friend.

I had the opposite impression.  It seems like they only knew what to do with him up until the big reveal in "Manhattan".  The fact that he came to Storybrooke and basically got to stand around in the background doing nothing suggests to me that they actually did not know what to do with the character anymore.  He wasn't a flamboyant villain.  His history as an adult was in the boring real world.  We all know that Neal had many issues and relationships he could have dealt with, so the fact that A&E went with an external problem - Tamara - tells me that they weren't really all that interested in Neal as a character.  You can tell they are interested in a character when they give them inner conflict and redemption storylines (eg. Hook, Zelena, Regina ad nauseum, Rumple).

Then in Season 3, again, A&E did not explore Neal's adult past, another sign that they didn't care.  He was placed in a cage for several episodes.  Then, basically came back in 3B to die.  Which also satisfied the "shocking death" notch on their edgy showrunner belt.

So I do think they wanted to write him out.  As others said, Neal's presence also hindered their ability to keep Rumple a grey villain, which they subsequently did with multiple flip-flops. 

As for their subsequent treatment after death, this was their typical breadcrumbs.  They didn't do SQ so they gave Regina and Emma special scenes of friendship.  They killed off Robin so they brought him back and paired him with the Alt-Regina.  Likewise, they killed off Neal so they threw in a namesake and a glowing painting since apparently that will make fans that missed him satisfied (not).

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

50 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The fact that he came to Storybrooke and basically got to stand around in the background doing nothing suggests to me that they actually did not know what to do with the character anymore.  He wasn't a flamboyant villain.  His history as an adult was in the boring real world.  We all know that Neal had many issues and relationships he could have dealt with, so the fact that A&E went with an external problem - Tamara - tells me that they weren't really all that interested in Neal as a character. 

So, basically, they hit the point of "but this is haaaard" and then went "Hey, wouldn't it be a shocking twist if Neal died?" but then felt bad about firing their friend and couldn't take the criticism from Neal fans, so they retroactively turned him into a saint.

I still don't know what the deal was with Robin, given the number of times they broke him up with Regina, then wrote him out, then brought him back and got them together again, only to bust them up again, with him having nothing to do while he was alive and no real development of the relationship. You'd think they hated the character because they seldom wrote for him and kept getting rid of him, but then they kept bringing him back.

Joss Whedon used to have a bad ballooning cast habit because he'd become friends with the actors and keep adding guest actors as regulars, even when it made no sense for the story, and he kept around characters who'd run their course, but I never felt like any of the regulars was all that neglected when he did so. It wasn't so much like this, where it's "We love this character/actor so much, let's make him a regular" immediately followed by "Oh, he's still on the show?"

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I still don't know what the deal was with Robin, given the number of times they broke him up with Regina, then wrote him out, then brought him back and got them together again, only to bust them up again, with him having nothing to do while he was alive and no real development of the relationship. You'd think they hated the character because they seldom wrote for him and kept getting rid of him, but then they kept bringing him back.

I think this was just them being super-sensitive to criticism. They found Robin boring to write, but the backlash from a very small but vocal portion of the fandom made them bring him back over and over. I think another reason they brought him back in S6 was the sexual harassment rumor that was spread about him by some fans, which from all accounts, seems false. So, maybe they wanted to make a gesture to show that he wasn't fired because of the rumors. Who knows.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think this was just them being super-sensitive to criticism. They found Robin boring to write, but the backlash from a very small but vocal portion of the fandom made them bring him back over and over.

This.  Even in Season 7, there are many calls for a happy ending for Regina/Robin.  The other difference is that A&E WANTED to give Regina a happy relationship with a true love since she deserves happiness.  Clearly, Robin was boring to write for, but they wanted to keep him around for that.  So they tried that for a long time but realized they couldn't do it.

The fact that they brought Alt Robin within half a season is an indication that the angry fandom did make a difference.  They didn't get exactly what they want, but A&E truly thought it would satisfy them all the while claiming they always intended to do what they did.  

30 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would love to see what this show would have done with "The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage" because that is one wacky story that doesn't work if you make the characters into humans.

Remember, A&E didn't bother to read fairy tales other than the ones they already knew.  Plus they seemed to have avoided most of the Disney films featuring animals, so inanimate objects like The Gingerbread Man and other animal fairy tales like Puss in Boots were generally ignored.

[KingOfHearts]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Remember, A&E didn't bother to read fairy tales other than the ones they already knew.  Plus they seemed to have avoided most of the Disney films featuring animals, so inanimate objects like The Gingerbread Man and other animal fairy tales like Puss in Boots were generally ignored.

A&E don't even seem to read the Wikipedia articles. They just study the back of Disney children's books.

Quote

This.  Even in Season 7, there are many calls for a happy ending for Regina/Robin.  The other difference is that A&E WANTED to give Regina a happy relationship with a true love since she deserves happiness.  Clearly, Robin was boring to write for, but they wanted to keep him around for that.  So they tried that for a long time but realized they couldn't do it.

By far, the most passionate fans surround the ships. (Captain Swan, Outlaw Queen, Swan Queen, Rumpbelle, and Snowing) It was a dumb idea not to bring a single couple to S7. As toxic as some of the shipping could get, it was a major reason why people were still watching and posting about the show all over social media.

Edited April 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

They just study the back of Disney children's books.

I thought they just watched the movie trailer on Youtube.

Oh oh oh I know.  Maybe the quiet in the Writers' Room was because they were all sitting down to read "The Count of Monte Cristo" for research!

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Oh oh oh I know.  Maybe the quiet in the Writers' Room was because they were all sitting down to read "The Count of Monte Cristo" for research!

You know its bad when a children's show about a book loving dog does a more accurate version of The Count of Monte Cristo than an actual show for adults. I even bought the dog more as the Count. 

To me, the big issue with A&E (well, one of them) is that they're idea guys. They came up with Neal being Rumples lost son and Henry's father and every other thing, because they thought it would be shocking and cool, and then...they had no idea how to follow through. And when things got hard, or they realized that writing Neal, or any of their other twists or new shiny toys, was going to take some effort or creativity, they panic and move onto the next thing, and hope everyone is too distracted by the next shiny thing to notice. Neal had endless potential as a character, but they didnt bother to write him as a character, they wrote him as a plot device, because they had no idea what to do with him, and when it became a tiny challenge, they tossed him away. Then they saw something else cool, and moved on. Its what they always do when they find something interesting.

[Camera One]

On 4/6/2018 at 11:33 AM, Shanna Marie said:

Really, you could do this with most of the characters -- actually do something with the Maleficent/Aurora story

This reminded me of something.  If you think about the biggest Princess stories, they are Snow White, Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty.  For the Disney versions, they all had a very threatening delicious villain.

A&E committed to the first and fully explored it in Season 1.  But I don't think they were ever too interested in the other two.

Season 7 supposedly revolved around the Cinderella story and it was poorly done, because I think A&E never liked/were interested in Cinderella.  One big indication was their decision to slot Cinderella in as a one-off in Season 1.  Likewise, they used Maleficent as a supporting character in Episode 2 of Season 1.  When they finally brought her back, it was in 4B, and they used her as a prop for Regina in "How Maleficent Got Her Groove Back" (or whatever it was called, I don't remember the real name).  Lady Tremaine didn't show up until 6A.  

I think if their goal was magic and hope of fairy tales, each of those three stories could have been developed into a half-season arc, at the very least.  They were able to do it for "Frozen".  But their interest lay elsewhere.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, basically, they hit the point of "but this is haaaard" and then went "Hey, wouldn't it be a shocking twist if Neal died?" but then felt bad about firing their friend and couldn't take the criticism from Neal fans, so they retroactively turned him into a saint.

I still don't know what the deal was with Robin, given the number of times they broke him up with Regina, then wrote him out, then brought him back and got them together again, only to bust them up again, with him having nothing to do while he was alive and no real development of the relationship. You'd think they hated the character because they seldom wrote for him and kept getting rid of him, but then they kept bringing him back.

Joss Whedon used to have a bad ballooning cast habit because he'd become friends with the actors and keep adding guest actors as regulars, even when it made no sense for the story, and he kept around characters who'd run their course, but I never felt like any of the regulars was all that neglected when he did so. It wasn't so much like this, where it's "We love this character/actor so much, let's make him a regular" immediately followed by "Oh, he's still on the show?"

Pretty much everything is "hard" for them. They don't want to flesh out any story and barely any characters. They wanted to give Regina a romance, her true love. But couldn't even be bothered to develop it not even for their favorite character.  The hype so much about these instant couples as if that'll make them an instant couple and instant hit. What so they don't have to do any of the work to develop them? Robin could have been cardboard cut out for all he mattered to the story. He was to sit and listen to Regina or stand in the background and do nothing. They keep trying to make couples just like Snowing. Except we got to see Snowing develop beyond one episode and do more then one just stand there. We got to see them fall in love, fight obstacles, and work together. Plus for a time they even each had their own story arch Snow originally planning on leaving the Enchanted Forest and Charming pretending to be prince. We saw Robin....hmm. Well we saw him originally trying to help and save his wife and following Regina into the castle. That was it. He never really had a story arch or anything beyond being complete douche bag by cheating on his wife with Regina, who cared that Marion was frozen or Regina originally tried to kill her. We never really got to see any real reaction or anything from him. Or do anything. We never saw why Regina liked, loved or wanted him. Except he was there and listened to every word she said. Did she love him? Well, she said so a lot but that was it. You never really saw any love. Maybe if they developed Robin and gave them more time to develop before just instantly making them true love maybe it would have been much better. But A&E can't be bothered to do that. They can't be bothered to do anything but give Regina more crimes she committed in flashbacks and more woe is me stuff in the present. They can't give Rumple anything to except be evil. Why is he evil? Who knows that takes too much time and effort to explain why. At least in the past he did have reasons or motives. Then as of season four he was evil just because.  They can't be bothered to develop any of the characters, write a story from beginning to end, or do anything, they can't even be bother to develop the new shiny toy. Its all too hard or too much work.  

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, basically, they hit the point of "but this is haaaard" 

This probably sums up what happens in their Writer's Room every couple of episodes.

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Robin could have been cardboard cut out for all he mattered to the story. He was to sit and listen to Regina or stand in the background and do nothing. They keep trying to make couples just like Snowing. Except we got to see Snowing develop beyond one episode and do more then one just stand there. 

And then eventually, Snowing got to stand there too.  It's the fate of every "hero".

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Season 7 supposedly revolved around the Cinderella story and it was poorly done, because I think A&E never liked/were interested in Cinderella.  One big indication was their decision to slot Cinderella in as a one-off in Season 1.  Likewise, they used Maleficent as a supporting character in Episode 2 of Season 1.  When they finally brought her back, it was in 4B, and they used her as a prop for Regina in "How Maleficent Got Her Groove Back" (or whatever it was called, I don't remember the real name).  Lady Tremaine didn't show up until 6A.  

I think I'm actually okay with Cinderella being more part of the fabric of their world than an actual plot. Unless you add a lot of extraneous stuff, there's not really enough story in Cinderella to sustain a multi-episode plot -- as we saw in season 7 when they threw in Rapunzel and a lot of other stuff, and it was still pretty weak. Cinderella works best as a rather intimate character study. I think that's one thing that worked in the Branagh version, where Lady Tremaine was just a woman desperate for financial security in a world where women's positions are precarious. It's hard to take that to a broader scale where she's a threat to even a small town. The heroes might want to protect Cinderella from her stepmother and help her find happiness, but there's not a lot at stake for anyone but Cinderella. The way it was handled in season one was just right, with Emma helping reunite her with her prince and her then becoming part of the group of friends. It might have been nice if they'd been able to keep that up and maybe have Lady Tremaine making appearances as that bitchy woman who's always calling the police on her neighbors or trying to take over the garden club (and, regardless of what they later said, I'm sticking with the headcanon that Ana from Wonderland was one of the stepsisters). Having Cinderella and her stepmother as part of the town's citizenry would have just added to that sense of a town populated by storybook characters.

Maleficent is more of a threat, since she has magical powers and can turn into a dragon. I could see her being an arc villain who was a danger to the town. She had reason for vendettas against Regina, the Charmings, and Rumple, and there was whatever was in her history with Aurora's family -- which we never learned, even when she was supposedly an arc villain. If she'd been a sole villain rather than diluting her with two other villains plus Rumple plus the Author, they could have really developed her story, along with Aurora and Philip, and then they could have used the other Queens of Darkness for another story arc.

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

then they could have used the other Queens of Darkness for another story arc.

They could have combined the Queens of Darkness with the Coat Hangers. Gothel would have worked as their alpha witch. She can't really hold a candle as a main Big Bad, but she'd be great in a buffet-style villain group.

Edited April 8, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That's an interesting point.  Cinderella, unlike Snow White and Aurora, wasn't royalty.  Lady Tremaine, unlike The Evil Queen and Maleficent, didn't have magic.  But in some ways, that could have been refreshing.  I could see the 6A Lady Tremaine amassing quite a lot of power and causing a lot of damage if she became the Lady of the Manor in a serfdom.  And that's even without stealing a magic wand which they had her do in Season 7 and in the Cinderella animated sequel.  

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Lady Tremaine, unlike The Evil Queen and Maleficent, didn't have magic.  But in some ways, that could have been refreshing.  I could see the 6A Lady Tremaine amassing quite a lot of power and causing a lot of damage if she became the Lady of the Manor in a serfdom. 

She could have been combined with another plot -- like, she could have been a rival for power vs. Regina in Storybrooke. Or she could have been part of the anti-magic faction if they'd really done that plot. After all, she was ruined because of a fairy godmother. Without magic, she'd have been better off, so she might be against magic. If she'd thrown in with Greg and Tamara against Regina, that would have made her a bigger threat and even a threat to Emma. I still don't see the Cinderella story as grounds for a main plot, but it could have been woven in with something else or been part of a storybook town.

[andromeda331]

47 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Maleficent is more of a threat, since she has magical powers and can turn into a dragon. I could see her being an arc villain who was a danger to the town. She had reason for vendettas against Regina, the Charmings, and Rumple, and there was whatever was in her history with Aurora's family -- which we never learned, even when she was supposedly an arc villain. If she'd been a sole villain rather than diluting her with two other villains plus Rumple plus the Author, they could have really developed her story, along with Aurora and Philip, and then they could have used the other Queens of Darkness for another story arc.

I can't believe they didn't do more with Maleficent. They had all of the pieces there for it and had a reason to be ticked at the heroes and the villains. She really should have been the next Big Bang in season two. The Curse broken and she was now free to terrorize the town and/or get revenge against Regina, Rumple and the Charmings. 

23 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She could have been combined with another plot -- like, she could have been a rival for power vs. Regina in Storybrooke. Or she could have been part of the anti-magic faction if they'd really done that plot. After all, she was ruined because of a fairy godmother. Without magic, she'd have been better off, so she might be against magic. If she'd thrown in with Greg and Tamara against Regina, that would have made her a bigger threat and even a threat to Emma. I still don't see the Cinderella story as grounds for a main plot, but it could have been woven in with something else or been part of a storybook town.

I wish they had explained how Cinderella's family was related to King George. Tremaine and King George seem like they'd have a lot in common or a type that would hit it off.       

[Camera One]

I still can't believe Maleficent just forgave Regina and Rumple.

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I still can't believe Maleficent just forgave Regina and Rumple.

Neither can I. There's no way she wouldn't have been out for blood. 

[KingOfHearts]

The more I explore similar media, the more I see shows that are interestingly bad, like OUAT. What separates the "just bad" from "something to analyze to death for years", is probably this - the show has a lot of potential, even some good moments, but it falls short spectacularly. What makes it so interesting is the planets aligning in terms of acting, production quality, and the core ideas behind it in conflict with the terrible writing crippling it for ages to come. It's also important that the show has a good start to fall from - just enough to get you invested before you get floored by character assassination and plot holes. I'm honestly surprised there isn't more rampant hate for it, given how passionate the fanbase is. 

[Camera One]

Considering how much this show destroyed some of my favorite characters from Season 1, I'm actually surprised I don't hate it more.  The only time I approach that feeling is when I remember and think about how Emma and Snow had their last one-on-one heart-to-heart scene that lasted more than a minute 104 episodes ago.  And yet I'm still engaged enough to keep watching and occasionally find moments to like (though it's definitely few and far between these last two seasons).

I definitely agree that the show has to grab you and you have to like it a lot, at least for half a season.  If you couldn't care less about it from the first few episodes, you wouldn't care enough to talk about it.  Even mild liking is not enough.

This show has another thing going for it, though, and it's the fact it's an adaptation of many different fairy tales, Disney movies, etc.  I think adaptations tend to have more to discuss since you're comparing and contrasting on top of analyzing the show or movie itself.