Past Seasons Talk: A Mystery Writer and NYC Detectives Solve Crimes

[readster]

Yeah out of the crappy secrets game I understood why Castle kept his and sympathised more even though it was very wrong to make that decision on her behalf. Ideally I would have liked them to simply move forward after her shooting having acknowledged that yeah he loved her and she knew it and had them come together after Cops & Robbers when I thought both were genuinely in a good place emotionally at that point. 

Yes, that would have really made the season work.  It was funny that after Bracken was revealed to be the Big Bad all these years how many people started turning on him or tried to kill him themselves. Up until the reveal in season 5 premiere, these former military men were just worshiping the ground he walked on and then it was: "They know who he is?" "Well, guess we can try and kill him ourselves now or just roll over easily." Kind of like how with 3XK, Tyson basically said: "You are evil, do as I say." And they were all: "Yes, master..." Or how much Tyson kept making the police and the DA's office look like morons and it was Castle who kept saying: "Its him!"

Edited April 29, 2015 by readster

[oberon55]

The whole blackmail scheme was idiotic from start to finish. They had to come up with a way to keep the threat real but at the same time have her safe enough to go about her life (solving crimes, having walls, & talking subtext). It became complete nonsense when they revealed that Montgomery had actually been willing to incriminate himself to Beckett's mom years earlier. Why did Smith go with a deal rather than turnover the evidence? If it all was to protect Montgomery then it was all for nothing. Whatever consequences there were for Montgomery's involvement are now in play because of the tape.

[verdana]

However, as they revealed more and more in season 5 and then his final take down in season 6. Things started to not make any sense, the blackmail with the police files, the hidden tape in Kate's white elephants.

 

As for the Johanna Beckett story, I thought Will Beall had a great handle on it but when he left the wheels started to fall of the wagon as Marlowe decided to make it more complicated and the story bigger with more layers to it but I sense that after a while they had no clue where to go with it. I was eye rolling when they got to Bracken and of course he's going to run for President, can't have Beckett chasing after any old bad guy. I was envisaging them getting to S9 and she's storming the White House armed with an arrest warrant. Thank God they saw sense and finally ended it because I think fans were growing increasingly weary of it, Beckett had fallen in love and was slowly healing and they didn't need the story any more to drive the relationship forward so it became something that was going around in circles to no one's benefit. I give Marlowe his due that he finally had the courage to end it when he did because it had became a crutch for the writers at that point. Her finding the hidden tape like that felt too deus ex machina but otherwise they did a pretty good job I thought of winding it up and keeping everyone relatively happy. Contrast this story arc with how they dealt with Castle's mythology where his character wasn't enhanced in any way by the emotional journey he took and the audience got precious little satisfaction out of it either. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by verdana

[zen415]

Same here, I hate what they did to Beckett over that Rogan bullshit. Even worse I can't watch any more what was one of my favourite episodes ever - Nanny McDead - because they've fucked that up too because of that scene where she says to Rick she's never been married etc. I will forever be pissed at MilMar for that travesty, made a million times worse by AM's comments (he wanted to "take her down a peg" or two, who would actively choose to do something like that? Urgh!) which further rubbed salt into an already gaping wound. If I'd been Stana Katic I'd have been so pissed off at what they did there to a character she so obviously cares about just for zany "fun". 

 

After that my feelings on the show changed and my enthusiasm never quite returned in the same way, I still watch every week but I don't trust TPTB not to pull the rug out whenever they please and I won't give them the benefit of the doubt, they blew it. You have to give the fans one positive thing in a finale if you intend to pull a stunt like that yet MilMar not only refused to throw a bone out they actually rubbed the fans faces further in the dirt just to make sure they got the message - we call the shots and don't give a shit. Screw you all.  

 

OMG! He said that?! Good thing I don't read spoilers/interviews. I can't believe you can be that disconnected with your audience. It astounds me that they don't get how stupid plot-devices like that take away from the show and push fans away. It definitely feels like a screw you to the fans.

 

Felt the same way about S4-S5, I loved S1-S3 but the writing got increasingly patchy from S5 onwards.  I much prefer binge watching, I've watched other shows and played catch up after losing track and I enjoy them far more when I can just watch one after another every day and any crappy episodes or bad story arcs get immediately forgotten by watching the next one, I don't have time to dwell on things or get annoyed, it's great. It was hell during the back end of S4 during the "douchebag" arc (from 47 seconds to Undead Again) when they had one episode then a break of a week then another one, then a break of about two weeks and fans were going up the wall over the angst between Castle and Beckett and there was a lot of infighting in the fandom which was terrible. People were taking sides and things got very nasty and then on top of that fans were desperate by that point to know were the writers going to bow to the pressure and get them together. I never want to go through anything like that again on this show angst wise which is why I'm terrified of them having marital problems if the writers get desperate because all hell will break loose if that happens.

 

Ouch. That douchebag arc was pretty bad: I can just imagine the forums at that time. I can even imagine Marlowe stroking his beard and thinking he is a genius while reading the comments. I'm glad I binge-watched that to get to "Always" as soon as I could.

 

To be fair, they had some great episodes/scenes in S4-S5 but some of them just felt just like filler, fun filler, but still filler. I don't mind angst but give me hope at the same time.

 

 

Season 7 has been a disappointment but I find it's slightly better than season 6 only because I haven't been forced to sit through boring wedding planning almost every episode that went nowhere. The annoying mythology almost tips the balance into making it worse but not quite since it only took up 3 episodes.

 

Since that crapfest was only limited to 4 episodes, I can comparmentalize: I'm giving these 3 episodes the same treatment I'm giving 6x23. They do not exist, I am never watching them again (even for the sweet Martha/Kate convo in 6x23): Kate was never married before marrying Castle, Castle was kidnapped, has amnesia and never found out why he was abducted but wanted to move on. I'll keep a seat for you on Denial Island.

 

Season 4 would have gone better if they didn't drag out Kate lying about not remembering what Castle said and then bringing it up because a kid lied about not knowing why he picked up a backpack.

 

 I always felt Beckett's lie was forced & contrived. I never bought her reason for lying or Castle's dumbass conclusions & behavior when he learned about it. Its only purpose was to ignore Castle's confession of love. Castle's secret on the other hand seemed more in character for both of them. I could see Castle trying to protect her (he is arrogant enough to think he knows best) & her reaction was also in character. Of course she would feel betrayed. Especially after finding out that Montgomery was involved all these years. It was believable that she would feel like she could not trust anyone. The season would have been better without any lies or secrets. But of the two I prefer Castle's.

 

I thought both lies were both on character but I do think they dragged out Beckett's lie too long. I think Beckett's lie should have come out by mid-season: Castle being hurt is understanble but he could have understand at the same time that Kate had PTSD and had to deal with it. If they had dealt with that by mid-season, showing them getting closer and then BOOM, Castle's secret would have come out, rocking the boat. Then again, that means thinking long term and better writing. That would have also avoided the whole CIA/Sophia-as-the-previous-muse but I won't repeat what KateDweller said on it because I agree word for word.

 

[KaveDweller]

Yeah out of the crappy secrets game I understood why Castle kept his and sympathised more even though it was very wrong to make that decision on her behalf. Ideally I would have liked them to simply move forward after her shooting having acknowledged that yeah he loved her and she knew it and had them come together after Cops & Robbers when I thought both were genuinely in a good place emotionally at that point.

I understand why Castle kept his secret, but I also understand why Beckett did.  I think (aside from her PTSD issues) she was trying to protect Castle in her own way, like she thought it would be unfair to admit she heard him when she wasn't ready to say it back. I think it's the most understandable of any lie she's told.

But it annoys me, because I've been reading a lot of S4 fan fiction lately, and there are some where people go on and on about how terribly Beckett treats Castle, and act like she's lucky Castle even speaks to her after all that.  But then they totally ignore the fact that Castle was lying to her too.  The fact that he had a "good reason" doesn't negate the fact that she felt hurt/betrayed by it.  Hypocrisy drives me crazy.  Especially when the show itself seemed to make a point of keeping things equal between them in the lying/secrets arc of season 4.  They both made mistakes and the both inadvertently hurt the other, but they also both cared about each other more.

But I am glad they had both secrets come out before they got together.  It probably would have been better if they had it happen earlier in season 4 though.  They could have shown them starting slowly and actually having a first date, kiss, etc.  Always was great, but a slow build up would have been fun too.

[verdana]

OMG! He said that?! Good thing I don't read spoilers/interviews. I can't believe you can be that disconnected with your audience. It astounds me that they don't get how stupid plot-devices like that take away from the show and push fans away. It definitely feels like a screw you to the fans.

 

Yes he did, he said it was done to show that she wasn't the only screw up and it would be "endearing" to Castle. He then later denied ever having said it or meaning it in that way (I can't quite recall) during an AMA Q&A session which made it worse. He also flat out ignored a fan's question as to how did her marriage go undetected for 15 years. Guess they couldn't be bothered to think of any decent excuse because there is none. That's why I won't be upset if MilMar depart because after 6.23 and those interviews he did I think they've completely lost sight of the characters they created. Precisely because it did feel like a "screw you!" to the fans is why it had long term repercussions for S7 that the writers weren't expecting.  Fans can forgive a lot but being made a fool of like that getting their hopes up all season long and then casually dashing them in that way...not cool. I doubt they'll ever admit they made a mistake publicly but privately they must know they screwed up. 

 

To be fair, they had some great episodes/scenes in S4-S5 but some of them just felt just like filler, fun filler, but still filler. I don't mind angst but give me hope at the same time.

 

I don't mind watching angst and drama but it has to feel organic and not get dragged out interminably as an obvious delaying tactic. Since real life is not all rainbows and unicorns it would be more authentic to have them engaging in the odd serious row or disagreement, it doesn't have to unbalance the overall light, frothy tone. 

 

Since that crapfest was only limited to 4 episodes, I can comparmentalize: I'm giving these 3 episodes the same treatment I'm giving 6x23. They do not exist, I am never watching them again (even for the sweet Martha/Kate convo in 6x23): Kate was never married before marrying Castle, Castle was kidnapped, has amnesia and never found out why he was abducted but wanted to move on. I'll keep a seat for you on Denial Island. 

 

Heh thanks I'll need it. Looking back I also want to forget everything that happened from Squab to Watershed, in my mind he proposed after Still which I loved (the ending was perfect) and S6 started with No 1 Fan and ended on Veritas - that would have been a perfect finale instead of the crapfest we got. The last satisfying finale was Always (with no real cliffhanger) and since then every single one has got progressively worse.

 

To be fair, they had some great episodes/scenes in S4-S5 but some of them just felt just like filler, fun filler, but still filler. I don't mind angst but give me hope at the same time.

 

 

Yeah there were quite a few episodes in S5 I enjoyed (S4 not so much although I adored Cops & Robbers) in the very early days they had filler too but it didn't seem like it was. I was learning interesting things almost every episode about Castle and Beckett but as the series has aged the filler really does feel like they're treading water just filling in time. But I guess that's the problem for the writers with an ageing show and characters -  it's more difficult to find new things to explore every week than it was earlier on.

 

But it annoys me, because I've been reading a lot of S4 fan fiction lately, and there are some where people go on and on about how terribly Beckett treats Castle, and act like she's lucky Castle even speaks to her after all that.  But then they totally ignore the fact that Castle was lying to her too.  The fact that he had a "good reason" doesn't negate the fact that she felt hurt/betrayed by it.

 

 

I haven't read any S4 fanfic for ages but after the finale aired I found there were a lot of what I call "fix it" fics where writers wrote stories that tried to solve the writing issues fans felt were causing them to get annoyed at either one or both characters. I remember it was a very polarizing issue,there was a lot of anger floating around and quite a bit seem directed as Beckett but may be that's my own bias coming into play with Castle as the more injured party so I gravitated towards them. Some of the "fix it" stories were pretty good and were better in terms of plotting and making both characters look sympathetic but I definitely read a lot where Beckett is in the dog house for her behaviour and Castle gets angry with her. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

I remember it was a very polarizing issue,there was a lot of anger floating around and quite a bit seem directed as Beckett but may be that's my own bias coming into play with Castle as the more injured party so I gravitated towards them. Some of the "fix it" stories were pretty good and were better in terms of plotting and making both characters look sympathetic but I definitely read a lot where Beckett is in the dog house for her behaviour and Castle gets angry with her.

 

The problem with stories like that, where people may be writing them to get out their own anger, is that while I might have originally felt more sympathy towards Castle, having him overreact in his anger makes me feel more sympathy for Beckett.  That The best stories are the ones where the writer does what the show does not, and actually let Castle/Beckett have a real conversation.  We never got a real conversation about either of those secrets.  The apparently just forgave each other, which is fine, but it's certainly a missed opportunity.

 

I feel like the past few seasons the show has been so much better in the first half of the season.  It's like they start getting tired a few months in and end up struggling to get across the finish line at the end.

[readster]

The problem with stories like that, where people may be writing them to get out their own anger, is that while I might have originally felt more sympathy towards Castle, having him overreact in his anger makes me feel more sympathy for Beckett.  That The best stories are the ones where the writer does what the show does not, and actually let Castle/Beckett have a real conversation.  We never got a real conversation about either of those secrets.  The apparently just forgave each other, which is fine, but it's certainly a missed opportunity.

 

I feel like the past few seasons the show has been so much better in the first half of the season.  It's like they start getting tired a few months in and end up struggling to get across the finish line at the end.

 

 That brings up a lot of good points. It was more of the writers' anger towards not wanting to tell the stories that made them not work. If you want a writer/producer in Hollywood who likes to teleplay his anger on things more than Michael Moore, look at David E. Kelly. The man has constantly thrown his anger on politics, religion or society from Chicago Hope to Boston Legal. Don't get me started on his thoughts on the priests in the catholic church or the Iraq War and Bush Administration. He even threw out his anger over various things in the last few years the government did. I mean it didn't feel: "ripped from the headlines." It was more: "We get it David, you hate it, get over it!" Its when things like that happen when shows like Castle falter like with the entire marriage situation. They were more focused on: "I hate the fans want this, we have to keep them from getting married no matter what." Which meant two grown adults who acted like 10 year olds and its like with Espo or Gates at time. All the the work and history and they still act like kids who were told they couldn't play with the Big Kids. How many times has Espo thrown Castle under the bus after everything they have done together? How many more times can Gates say how much she hates Castle's antics when he has solved so many cases with them and been right about how many things? Of course, how many times has Beckett gone alone and gotten attacked or almost killed when they have pointed out not to keep doing that. Or with Alexis doing something more than being 21 and not aware of the world. Or how many times do we have to hear Laine be told she is Kate's best friend or how she wants to settle down yet doesn't do any of this stuff? The writers don't even try to make it work its more: "We don't like to write relationships." 

[zen415]

I understand why Castle kept his secret, but I also understand why Beckett did.  I think (aside from her PTSD issues) she was trying to protect Castle in her own way, like she thought it would be unfair to admit she heard him when she wasn't ready to say it back. I think it's the most understandable of any lie she's told.

But I am glad they had both secrets come out before they got together.  It probably would have been better if they had it happen earlier in season 4 though.  They could have shown them starting slowly and actually having a first date, kiss, etc.  Always was great, but a slow build up would have been fun too.

 

I also think both secrets were understandable and in character but they dragged it forever and also did not talk about it. They were stagnant for long chunks of the season. The problem was the execution: pacing, writing, etc. After rewatching, I could figure out what TPTB wanted to do but the way it was just poorly reflected on screen. I could see the slow build-up of getting closer in one episode and the next, poof, character reset, like nothing ever happened. I don't know if it was the procedural format, but that lack of continuity was annoying. A procedural can also be continuous, like Person of Interest, for example.

 

Yes he did, he said it was done to show that she wasn't the only screw up and it would be "endearing" to Castle. He then later denied ever having said it or meaning it in that way (I can't quite recall) during an AMA Q&A session which made it worse. He also flat out ignored a fan's question as to how did her marriage go undetected for 15 years. Guess they couldn't be bothered to think of any decent excuse because there is none.

 

I have no words.

 

 

Precisely because it did feel like a "screw you!" to the fans is why it had long term repercussions for S7 that the writers weren't expecting.  Fans can forgive a lot but being made a fool of like that getting their hopes up all season long and then casually dashing them in that way...not cool. I doubt they'll ever admit they made a mistake publicly but privately they must know they screwed up.

I wonder if that's the reason the wedding was so early in Season 7? I wonder if the original plan was only to marry them at the end of Season 7. Of course, I'm assuming there was a plan... I just recall reading something on how the Alexis/Pi arc came to a close much faster then planned because of poor fan reaction and I think maybe it was the same thing.

 

 

But I guess that's the problem for the writers with an ageing show and characters -  it's more difficult to find new things to explore every week than it was earlier on.

 

I think it's more laziness then anything else. Focusing on secondary characters a little every episodes so we learn a little about them instead of one big episode would have helped the pacing. We learned so much in Season 3 and there was Martha/Alexis having a decent storyline. They could have build-up on that and focus a little more on esposito and Ryan in Season 4.

 

Also, they don't delve into issues in depth. I thought Kate's insecurities about Castle previous playboy past, her concerns about their different lives in 5x08, Castle holding back because he is afraid Kate is not totally in (5x24) would have been great to deal with in more depth instead of the one conversation.

 

I feel like the past few seasons the show has been so much better in the first half of the season.  It's like they start getting tired a few months in and end up struggling to get across the finish line at the end.

 

It's like the writers have fun for the first part of the season and then, when they are writing the last few episodes, they want an arc that will lead to a great finale but they can't be bothered to write something with depth or that makes sense with the characters history. I understand the Beckett-promotion-feeling-granted-Castle-not-sure-if-it-will-work arc but it was just so rushed together and made me go where is it coming from? The idea is interesting but again the poor execution makes it flat. I feel I am repeating myself, sorry. :)

 

As much as I love Season 2, they did jump the shark a little at the end of that season too. You have the great two-parter where Castle and Beckett get very close and then the next episode oups, Castle is back at dating some random woman. What happened? Why the sudden change?

[WendyCR72]

As much as I love Season 2, they did jump the shark a little at the end of that season too. You have the great two-parter where Castle and Beckett get very close and then the next episode oups, Castle is back at dating some random woman. What happened? Why the sudden change?

 

I'll be the lone voice and say back then, it would have been way too soon to put C/B together. No way would the show have made it to seven seasons. I think those behind the scenes realized things were going too fast, but instead of not doing that to begin with, they instead had to tap dance around the mistake, and that is what the show was left with.

[vanarnd1]

I'll be the lone voice and say back then, it would have been way too soon to put C/B together. No way would the show have made it to seven seasons. I think those behind the scenes realized things were going too fast, but instead of not doing that to begin with, they instead had to tap dance around the mistake, and that is what the show was left with.

I agree looking back it does seem like there was a course correction at the end of Season 2. I can understand it from a business perspective of wanting to extend the series but It could have been handled better than what happened with Demming and Gina IMO.

 

I do think there was merit though to at least having Castle and Beckettt admit their feelings to each other by the end of season 2. The highest ratings the show has ever had was for the Season 2 two parter(Tick/Boom) and it could have been a great opportunity to move the Caskett relationship forward while the show had its biggest audience. The two times they hit the reset button to stall the Caskett relationship (end of Season 2 and the start of Season 4) the ratings dropped afterwards so maybe that could have been avoided if TPTB had addressed the relationship in a more direct way either of those times.

[oberon55]

I think the whole Beckett lie was to crawfish out of Castle's declaration of love & nothing more. Her being so emotionally dysfunctional that she had to go to therapy for almost a year just to acknowledge that she heard him seems pretty weak to me. Castle's antics after he learned her secret were just to ramp up the angst & did not advance the relationship one bit. At the beginning of "47 Seconds" when Castle & Beckett were talking if he had asked her to come over for a John Woo marathon instead of being interrupted by Ryan I believe she would have said yes. So after all the crap that Castle pulled we came full circle back to where we started. Except it is now canon that Castle can be a petty vindictive prick.

[WendyCR72]

I don't want to open a Pandora's Box of Castle versus Beckett, but...and here goes...I didn't think Castle acted like a douche ever where this was concerned. If I told a guy I loved him and he didn't have the balls to say to me, at the very least (assuming he was shot like Beckett was), I heard what you said and I care deeply about you, but I can't focus on us right now until I'm strong enough, and I found out he knew and avoided the topic completely, I'd be hurt and angry and tell him to go screw himself, too.

 

These two were supposed to be able to trust each other. Instead it devolved into...what it was...because they couldn't get together yet for whatever reason. It still could have gone that way as I had written above but with less dishonesty, avoidance (Kate never even called him), and deceit.

 

I totally got why Castle acted cold after that. Now, I'm not in the "Beckett is lucky he ever spoke to her again" camp, but she did bring a lot of that coldness and hurt on to herself because she couldn't just tell Castle she needed time.

[zen415]

I'll be the lone voice and say back then, it would have been way too soon to put C/B together. No way would the show have made it to seven seasons. I think those behind the scenes realized things were going too fast, but instead of not doing that to begin with, they instead had to tap dance around the mistake, and that is what the show was left with.

I do agree it would have been too soon but I wish they would have explained why the suddent change. Did Castle not feel ready to commit? Did Kate not want to ruin their friendship? It just went from 0 to 100 without any explanation. That's my nitpick.

 

The two times they hit the reset button to stall the Caskett relationship (end of Season 2 and the start of Season 4) the ratings dropped afterwards so maybe that could have been avoided if TPTB had addressed the relationship in a more direct way either of those times.

 

Thank you for mentionning the ratings: I did not know that. There are so many ways they could have done this but then we would need another thread!

 

I'm bringing over the post you made in the s7e21 thread because I love it so much and it applies to Season 4 onwards. From vanarnd1:

 

 

I think the lack of balance makes all the difference though. When people want to see Alexis used better, I think they mean to give the character an interesting B plot within an episode that would result in character growth or the strengthing of a relationship within the show(like having an meaningful scene with Beckett). Having Alexis go from having very little screen time to suddenly being heavily involved in the COTW and pretty much being the costar of this episode does not really acomplish anything longterm.

 

It is the same with how Castle was featured this season. I was hoping we would learn more about Castle as a character this season and see meaningful discussions between him and Beckett, but instead we had the PI arc which gave Castle more screen time, but didn't delve into his backstory in any way. Character development comes from the subtle moments and personal discussions that should take place multiple times throughout a season, not just thrusting a character into the spotlight to solve the COTW. This is the same problem the show has when they devote a whole episode each season to Ryan and Espo out of nowhere and expect the fans to get invested.

I feel like a lot of the creative choices TPTB made this season(like this episode) were just contrived ways to cut down on the filming hours for Stana and Nathan. They have managed to find ways throughout multiple episodes to keep Castle and Beckett apart, and IMO it has not worked well. Due to poor writing choices, the show has nothing to fall back expect the Caskett chemistry, and I don't think it is suprising when fans aren't happy with an episode like this one that involved a limited amount of Caskett interaction.

 

ETA: To make it clearer that the last quote is a post from vanarnd1.

Edited May 1, 2015 by zen415

[verdana]

I think it's more laziness then anything else. Focusing on secondary characters a little every episodes so we learn a little about them instead of one big episode would have helped the pacing. We learned so much in Season 3 and there was Martha/Alexis having a decent storyline. They could have build-up on that and focus a little more on esposito and Ryan in Season 4.

 

That's what I was trying to get at on the episode thread, the writers aren't doing it right and that's why fans continue to complain when they get episodes 7.21 where the focus is mainly one of the secondary cast, other examples being KillShot, At Close Range etc. What they should have been doing (and what they used to do as you point out) was sprinkle moments of story and character development throughout a season for the secondary cast instead of having something thrust at them once a season and then sitting back expecting fans to be all excited by that when they have no investment built up in the character because they've been mostly ignored prior to that. It's all about getting a balance and they fail to do that and it's coming back to haunt them because the secondary characters are so woefully underdeveloped. They can't pad out episodes with them to take the weight off Stana and Nathan unlike say on Bones where the secondary cast are far more involved in the stories on a consistent basis but it takes work and an understanding of how to pace things and these Castle writers won't or can't do it. 

 

Also, they don't delve into issues in depth.

 

No they don't and it's hurt the show, how do the characters have less substance to them now they they did six years ago? I watch earlier seasons and the difference is striking at how much better the writing was back then in terms of how they dealt with allowing the characters to breathe and have a moment of reflection and allowing the audience to see something interesting which added another building block to the character. Nowadays the writers seem perfectly happy to keep any character development superficial for the most part and pad the episodes out with case stuff which is easier to write, it's lazy and long term it undermines everything. I fail to see where the substance is in their relationship that some fans wax lyrical over every week on tumblr especially. They don't talk about anything serious that most couples of their age and disposition should or seem that inquisitive about each other and their pasts.

 

As for their communication I think it's still poor even if they're acting all loved up, the only difference is the writers are choosing not to make anything out of it which they did in the past.  They've never discussed his prior marriages which seems a no brainer to me. Castle didn't tell her he was going off to Montreal despite the fact anything could have happened until after the event but she lets it go, he doesn't tell her he's retrained to become a PI until the last minute and he's got his licence and despite a brief admonishment that's brushed over too. They never seemed to want to talk about his disappearance in any significant way which I found laughable if this had been a real life situation.

 

I always get the distinct impression that Castle and Beckett find out things about the same time as the audience do when it comes to their relationship, unlike some I don't believe they talk about much off screen either so I disagree and don't see where this great communication is happening constantly between them. Married people share things with each other and this couple despite all the loved up looks and general veneer of cuteness don't do that very often which I consider truly makes a relationship work long term.  Good job this is TV and they can live happily ever after but I doubt things would be quite so hunky dory if this was real.

 

ETA Vanardi's post was the one that I thought did such a great job of explaining the issues I have with the writing on this show and how they've been obviously trying to separate Castle and Beckett this season whenever possible. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

Sigh.  Revisiting past seasons through discussion can be a bit depressing as it reminds me of how considerably the show's writing has declined in later seasons.  

 

Seasons 1-2 was the golden age for me.  Caskett banter was sharp and witty, their growing relationship felt organic, the push and pull and the sexual tension was fun to watch, and we were learning interesting things about both characters.  Beckett was still original, slightly awkward Beckett that I loved and hadn't become a Mary Sue kind of character and her wardrobe hadn't become that of a supermodel yet.  

 

Didn't see Gina coming at all and that was probably my first big question mark about the show.   Felt like a forced obstacle between Caskett more than an organic development at that point because all indications till then was that no love was lost between Castle and Gina.  But OK... the angst in the S2 ending still gets to me and Beckett's reaction still packs a big emotional punch.  More so than many of the angsty moments in later seasons somehow, which often pissed me off because the characters were behaving so unnaturally and ridiculously.

 

S3 started on a bit of an off note to me.  I didn't really get the rationale of Beckett being portrayed as righteously pissed at Castle. He said he would be back in the fall and he was, so... huh?  Other times I believed it was right for Castle to apologise to Beckett like for violating her trust with her mother's case, but here I didn't really get why she had a right to be mad and it was a little annoying that the audience was meant to sympathise with her pov.   I'm not saying that Castle should have moved on so quickly with Gina (as a reaction to Demming partly), but can't blame the guy for not being a mindreader about Beckett at that point.

 

S3 was the season of them dating other people.  I accept that as an unavoidable stage of WT/WT shows.  But I never thought the writers wrote this theme particularly well and there was never much depth (Gina got a little, maybe) to the portrayal of these relationships.  Josh was never more than a cardboard cutout heart surgeon/motorcycle boy designed to be the Mary Sue equivalent for a male character.  This season was probably the beginning of the decline for me, but still much better than later seasons in hindsight.  Start of forgettable filler episodes in S3 and uneven ones.  Ends with ILU bombshell from Castle which I didn't see coming either, but about time.

 

S4 also started on a bit of an off note.  Didn't see the Beckett lie coming because I didn't think of that as a normal reaction.  The normal thing to do would have been for her to tell Castle that she needed time and wasn't ready to deal with that stuff right now along with her mother's case.  But I guess that wasn't dramatic enough for Marlowe.  The "season of secrets" didn't work for me as a dramatic engine because it dragged and dragged and this was the first season where I felt they were really putting things on hold unnaturally.  One entire season of them not having an honest conversation about all this was too unbelievable.  We had a great episode in Cops and Robbers, which really should have led somewhere (!!) because hello near death experience should spur courage and honesty, or even Cuffed, but basically they just wanted to keep Caskett in the same stagnated place.  Tried to appease us with some actual hand holding, but seriously?  Weak stuff! The arc with Sophia was also unimpressive because I didn't enjoy the idea of Castle having another muse before Beckett whom he'd actually shadowed and then slept with.  Kind of like how I don't like anyone getting Beckett coffee but Castle. ;)  And that whole weird conversation Beckett and Sophia had about Sophia's previous relationship Castle (written by Marlowe, I believe) didn't really serve any purpose in informing the Caskett relationship.  Don't get me started on the ridiculous Linchpin world domination plot.  

 

And then of course we had to conclude the season with the douchebag arc which may still be my most hated of all.  It never made any sense to me that Castle's reaction on finding out that Beckett lied would be to automatically jump to the conclusion that it meant she didn't have feelings for him (nor did it feel natural to me for Beckett to reveal her lie in an interrogation but anyway), and then start acting out like a douche (Jacinda. Ugh. Hunt. Double ugh.) without even trying to have a real conversation with her!   And hello, did he (and the writers) forget that conversation on the swings where the subtext was fairly clear from Beckett that any future relationship would be with him?!  The writers conveniently ignored all that because they wanted to generate angst (even at the expense of Castle's characterisation!!) that we had to endure for a few unpleasant episodes.  The show has never been able to pull off writing the show well when they make the characters unlikeable, at least not to me, and this was no exception.  Deep breath.  Finally got our Always in the end and both the confrontation scene and the getting together scene were good enough, but that didn't make me forget the wreckage we had to suffer through to get there, which was unnecessary in my opinion and damaging to the characters.  But I do my best to have amnesia about the douchebag arc.

 

S5.  Expectations were high because finally they were together!  The scene in Always was so raw and passionate, I was expecting more of the same in their early days as a new couple.  More fool I!  Should have gotten a clue when their first morning after started with an interrupted kiss and then an turn to the comedic rather than the romantic.  Second episode in as a new couple and they give us another woman straddling Castle for laughs.  Massive fail.  S5 never really gave me the honeymoon period of new discoveries of each other as a couple, as lovers, that I'd hoped for.  We didn't really see them learning new things about each other and learning to mesh their lives together.  The whole keeping their relationship secret from their coworkers was another fail in terms of making it dramatically fun and interesting.  Cheated of Lanie finding out about the relationship.  No, instead, we get a scene of her comforting teary Beckett while Castle is suspected of murder and her asking Beckett if she's really sure about him.  How nice.    Alexis kidnapping 2 parter was good though in the 2nd half of the season.  Mombatross was really beginning to lose me.  Bracken was becoming a cartoon mega powerful villain and I felt his confrontations with Beckett were feeling repetitive.  

 

We get another lovely angsty arc to conclude S5, second only to the douchebag arc in its obnoxiousness and ridiculousness.  TS&TQ ranks amongst one of most hated Castle episodes of all time.  Castle has to be shown to be ignoring sexytimes with Beckett in favour of videogames (wtf) which leads to her being semi-interested in a handsome billionaire (note how even a heart surgeon/motorcycle boy isn't enough for a woman like Beckett at this point, it has to be a handsome billionare ;)), whom she allows to kiss her (wtf!!!).  Beckett letting Vaughn kiss her should never have happened, not even for a second!!  Castle was more forgiving than I would have been and again he's the one to apologise to her at the end with a romantic massage as Beckett inanely asks him "where are we going?" and Castle of course doesn't get the point because why would he in that moment, and they have to stretch out the angst!  So of course Beckett can't talk to him like a normal person and they can't have a serious relationship about where their relationship stands.  Castle was never portrayed as not taking the relationship seriously so I don't really get where Beckett's insecurities in that regard were coming from.  Then of course we get Still as the next episode (aired out of order but still!) where the man actually comes back to be possibly blown up with her and she's still doubting him in the episodes after.  Wtf indeed.  The career crossroads was a realistic thing for Beckett to tackle but the way she handled it with Castle never seemed realistic to me.  What was the big deal in having an actual conversation about it earlier on?  Castle and her career shouldn't have been thought of as an either/or.  The guy was ready to die with her, was it so inconceivable that he would be willing to move to D.C. or try to make a long distance relationship work as mature adults do?  Instead we get another poorly written argument scene, a weird scene with Beckett and her Dad where she basically says she'll choose the job over Castle, and then to top it all off we have the breakup that never was psych it's actually a marriage proposal!  Who cares if it's the least romantic proposal of all time coming completely out of the blue?  It wasn't the time to propose in my view, and I think they jumped the gun too early in terms of storytelling in going to an engagement at this point.  They could have simply reconciled and opened the next season with the challenges of handling a long distance relationship.  Proposal should have occurred at a completely joyous, solid and non angsty time in the relationship.

 

S6.  The horrible proposal was somewhat redeemed in the opener when it was made clear that Castle didn't propose out of fear.  Problem is, they made it like he wasn't proposing out of joy either, with all the preceding angst and the break up fakeout.  Anyway, moving on.  DC arc was OK.  I didn't mind a change up just like I didn't mind the PI arc.  We still had plenty of Caskett interaction in both.  Almost forgot about Pi because that's another arc of Castle I want amnesia about.  Pi/Alexis arc was another massive fail.  Enough said.  Worse of all was how badly it damaged Castle/Alexis characterisation.  Never made sense to me either how Castle wouldn't have told Alexis about his proposal and how she became pissed off at him so much as a result.  More uneven, lackluster episodes this season.  Veritas was a good conclusion to would be President (seriously?) Bracken (finally!) but I thought ITBOTB was a melodramatic mess.  Dull season of shallow wedding planning that was never interestingly written and often felt out of character.  It was just about superficial stuff rather than about the real stuff couples would discuss as they merged their lives together.  Suffered through all that boring wedding planning and an ugly wedding dress only to be gifted a ridiculous Vegas marriage (thanks for ruining 'one and done') and a Caskett wedding that never was.  But oh, isn't that burning car cliffhanger complete with crying bride oh so (melo)dramatic?! 

 

S7 has been an improvement to me overall because I feel the Caskett chemistry is stronger and consistent again this season.  Castle's mythology is a joke, but that aside, I've enjoyed the PI arc and there have been a handful of alt episodes that I've enjoyed such as the alt universe wedding episode, wild west, kindergarten cop. Lackluster, filler episodes continue to be sprinkled throughout the season but used to that by now.

 

If you've made it through this long as hell post and you're still awake, thanks for reading. :)  A journey into my thoughts about Castle over the seasons.  Here's to hoping the show can go out on a strong note whenever it does with no one dead and with no more wtf angsty arcs. ;)

Edited May 1, 2015 by madmaverick

[verdana]

madmaverick. Wonderful post.

 

I do think there was merit though to at least having Castle and Beckettt admit their feelings to each other by the end of season 2. The highest ratings the show has ever had was for the Season 2 two parter(Tick/Boom) and it could have been a great opportunity to move the Caskett relationship forward while the show had its biggest audience.

 

I didn't like the way they stalled on their relationship with the Demming/Gina situation but at the same time with hindsight they weren't emotionally ready to get together. Beckett certainly wasn't and I don't believe Rick at that was stage was in love, he was getting that way but if this had been RL I could have seen them coming unstuck.  The writers weren't comfortable dealing with the relationship even at that early stage and preferred stalling with the appearance of Gina and Josh (although they didn't really appear much!) which wasn't executed well either. They could have handled it better though and like madmaverick I never understood why Rick was in the dog house when he got back with everyone after that summer and to blame given I thought Beckett had a part to play in what happened. 

[verdana]

I don't want to open a Pandora's Box of Castle versus Beckett, but...and here goes...I didn't think Castle acted like a douche ever where this was concerned. If I told a guy I loved him and he didn't have the balls to say to me, at the very least (assuming he was shot like Beckett was), I heard what you said and I care deeply about you, but I can't focus on us right now until I'm strong enough, and I found out he knew and avoided the topic completely, I'd be hurt and angry and tell him to go screw himself, too.

 

They picked the worse option which was to have Castle not approach her and Beckett to stay passive and that made both individuals unlikable to me  I don't blame Castle being pissed off but I wish they had either got him to man up and have it out with her or leave. By the time they got to Undead Again I was willing him to give up on her because I'd had enough. The writers have this gift when it comes to their relationship woes of making me dislike both characters instead of sympathising with them which is presumably the general idea. Or do they want you to take sides? Having Castle hanging around like he did was pathetic and frustrating to watch, he ended up looking like a sad (and bitter) sack which is not a good look on anyone least of all Castle who is generally a happy go lucky guy and full of optimism. 

 

Meanwhile Beckett was infuriating with her unwillingness to be proactive about the situation. She spoke to everyone but the one person she needed to and it seemed that she was prepared to let him walk away and still do nothing to help herself. This was crazy given everything she had been through to get to this point and also taking into account their conversation on the swings even if it was more loaded in subtext than anything else. Beckett needed time to pull herself together physically and mentally but equally Castle couldn't be expected to sit around politely waiting for her forever with no hint of anything changing but it felt like that's what she expected of him and I thought her attitude was selfish and naive. 

[McManda]

I didn't really get the rationale of Beckett being portrayed as righteously pissed at Castle. He said he would be back in the fall and he was, so... huh?

 

and like madmaverick I never understood why Rick was in the dog house when he got back with everyone after that summer and to blame given I thought Beckett had a part to play in what happened.

 

Except he wasn't back in the fall by choice. From where she sat, he came back to NYC and didn't mention it to her (or Ryan or Espo), despite telling her that he would be back in the fall. She had already made up her mind to not chase after him, so she wasn't going to be knocking on his door to ask what was up, like she told Ryan and Espo - if he wanted to be back he would.

 

I don't think all the anger was Beckett's doing. She was upset, yes, but it's not like I thought she had instructed Ryan and Espo to be mad, too. They were angry for their own reasons, probably both having to do with Castle hurting their sister and Castle letting them down by leaving, too.

 

Anyway, I quite like the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3. I think it's one of the manufactured angst moments that they did well. But then they threw in Josh and things got iffy.

[verdana]

 

I wonder if that's the reason the wedding was so early in Season 7? I wonder if the original plan was only to marry them at the end of Season 7. Of course, I'm assuming there was a plan... I just recall reading something on how the Alexis/Pi arc came to a close much faster then planned because of poor fan reaction and I think maybe it was the same thing.

It wasn't early enough, they should have had it at the latest by 7.03, by the time they got to 7.06 fans had already built up a head of steam about it being delayed and coming in sweeps made it obvious there was nothing organic about this journey to the altar, they had already blown their budget too on the aborted one by the looks of the final result. It's painful watching the S6 DVD clips and the one Stana did of the wedding day arrangements and seeing how much time and effort they put into everything from her dress, jewellery, the lovely flowers etc and you know all along it's for nothing. Ouch.

 

What was funny is that Marlowe had given an interview where he'd said that there were "more stories" that had to be told before they could get married hence the delayed wedding. I have no idea why a case about an invisible killer, finding a murderer with the help of a bunch of kids and an episode on the perils of cyberbullies and social media were of such vital importance to get out the way first and that stirred up more frustration in some quarters. It's obvious that was a load of crap and they were stalling and I'm sure they would have dragged it out even longer but even they couldn't have managed to make it to the end of S7 without a riot on their hands and falling ratings. They were running out of wedding planning talk already by the latter half of S6, can you imagine two full seasons of that?  

 

As for their "planning" I don't think much of it, seems this season they've been flying by the seat of their pants even more than usual, the writers tend to be reactive not proactive in how they deal with issues that come up and it shows. 

[madmaverick]

Hadn't Castle just gotten back from the Hamptons, or something like a week or two, before his path crossed with Beckett in NYC?  And he had work to do for his new book release that came out in the fall.  Just saying I would cut the guy a little slack before jumping all over him.  It's not like he hadn't called her in 3 months after she said she would. :P   But I completely get Beckett lashing out in anger because she was hurt by his leaving and getting together with Gina.  I just don't blame him for being clueless as to why she and everyone else at the precinct was mad at him and owed her an apology for not calling the minute he arrived back in NYC.  

 

I suppose they might have been aiming to stall the wedding till midseason S7 but they completely miscalculated the blowback they would get from 623.  Some of those who were left pissed and confused from 623 might have tuned in 701 to see what the deal was, but since the way they dipped into Castle's disappearance along with Beckett's doubts was a downer not to mention an uncompelling snoozefest with no answers just more wtfs, it's no surprise viewers bailed and they haven't recovered those since then.  That's the risk you take when you choose to build up expectations with viewers and then jerk them around for no good reason, no interesting dramatic reason.  Amann didn't write a great opener and Marlowe's follow up 2nd episode wasn't that great either.  Not surprised they come up short with their "high stakes" of Castle's disappearance since they clearly had no clue where they were going.  The invisible person case was the first classic Castle episode of the season that I enjoyed.  

Edited May 1, 2015 by madmaverick

[readster]

madmaverick. Wonderful post.

 

I didn't like the way they stalled on their relationship with the Demming/Gina situation but at the same time with hindsight they weren't emotionally ready to get together. Beckett certainly wasn't and I don't believe Rick at that was stage was in love, he was getting that way but if this had been RL I could have seen them coming unstuck.  The writers weren't comfortable dealing with the relationship even at that early stage and preferred stalling with the appearance of Gina and Josh (although they didn't really appear much!) which wasn't executed well either. They could have handled it better though and like madmaverick I never understood why Rick was in the dog house when he got back with everyone after that summer and to blame given I thought Beckett had a part to play in what happened. 

I know that Gina didn't appear much because she was pregnant in real life and by the time they got the break up. She had just had the baby, that's why it was done on the phone. They even admitted it was really hard with Gina due to her pregnancy and they couldn't really find a good way to dress her or shoot around it they later revealed. Hence why she was mentioned and not shown. As for Josh, that is a good question. I know that Ashley wasn't used as much because Brenda Hampton didn't like sharing him from Secret Life. Molly Quinn even said that was why he wasn't around much especially by the time they broke up. 

[McManda]

Hadn't Castle just gotten back from the Hamptons, or something like a week or two, before his path crossed with Beckett in NYC?  And he had work to do for his new book release that came out in the fall.  Just saying I would cut the guy a little slack before jumping all over him.

 

We know that because Castle mentioned it when he was talking to Martha and Alexis. Beckett didn't know that; he never told her. Jealousy and anger makes people irrational. She didn't have the whole story, and what she did have made it look like he was back in town and avoiding her, or at the very least, not interested in working with her. I can't fault Beckett for the decisions she made with the information she had.

 

Besides, other than a biting "just go home, Castle", I think he made it out of the whole thing pretty easily.

[verdana]

I know that Gina didn't appear much because she was pregnant in real life and by the time they got the break up. She had just had the baby, that's why it was done on the phone. They even admitted it was really hard with Gina due to her pregnancy and they couldn't really find a good way to dress her or shoot around it they later revealed. Hence why she was mentioned and not shown. As for Josh, that is a good question. I know that Ashley wasn't used as much because Brenda Hampton didn't like sharing him from Secret Life. Molly Quinn even said that was why he wasn't around much especially by the time they broke up.

Yeah to be fair to the writers can get problems that are out of their control which they have to make the best of and that was one of them. Victor Webster hardly made any appearances although I'm glad about that as despite his looks I thought he was a pretty lousy actor.  I also didn't like his character anyway he came over as an arrogant arse. His performance in Rise makes me cringe to this day. In a way may be it was for the best their limited screen time because if they had been making regular appearances loved up with their respective partners I can only imagine how much fan drama would have occurred. Towards the end I completely forgot Josh even existed looks like Beckett did too for the most part. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

We know that because Castle mentioned it when he was talking to Martha and Alexis. Beckett didn't know that; he never told her. Jealousy and anger makes people irrational. She didn't have the whole story, and what she did have made it look like he was back in town and avoiding her, or at the very least, not interested in working with her. I can't fault Beckett for the decisions she made with the information she had.

 

Besides, other than a biting "just go home, Castle", I think he made it out of the whole thing pretty easily.

I just thought that a calendar would have indicated how many weeks into fall it was at that point and if was still September, then Beckett didn't have to be thinking that Castle was never going to be in touch again.  Not so soon, anyway.  But I understand jealousy and hurt making people irrationally angry.  It's not so much that I fault Beckett for acting that way, but the writers seemed to think she was 'in the right' which ticked me off a little.  Same way Alexis was presented as the one deserving of an apology from Castle during the Pi thing even though she wasn't exactly respectful towards him.  Maybe both parties could have handled things better.  Why does Castle almost always have to be the one to grovel?  

[readster]

Yeah to be fair to the writers can get problems that are out of their control which they have to make the best of and that was one of them. Victor Webster hardly made any appearances although I'm glad about that as despite his looks I thought he was a pretty lousy actor.  I also didn't like his character anyway he came over as an arrogant arse. His performance in Rise makes me cringe to this day. In a way may be it was for the best their limited screen time because if they had been making regular appearances loved up with their respective partners I can only imagine how much fan drama would have occurred. Towards the end I completely forgot Josh even existed looks like Beckett did too for the most part. 

Oh I completely agree on Webster. I remembered him from his Mutant X days and I didn't like him then either. He is a very limited actor, sure he looks good but that is about it. Same goes for Ken Baumann, never really thought he was anything special, while I did stay far away from SLAT he was used and acted a lot better on Castle than on that show where he seemed to really seem to get worst and worst by the episode. Outside of Here's Herbie he really hasn't done much and he's a dad now, so I can see why he hasn't done much more but he is only 26, so he has time unlike Webster who gets by on his looks. It is true, sometimes writers can't help things they were never prepared for and do their best. Sadly, sometimes they have tried to carry on storylines where they just pray the actor is going to be free by the time they want a solution. However, when they do it seems very forced or poorly written, like with Meredith's appearing because Alexis was sick and the actress was just free enough for the writers to go: "Now we can cast doubt with Beckett... hehehehe." 

[verdana]

S5.  Expectations were high because finally they were together!  The scene in Always was so raw and passionate, I was expecting more of the same in their early days as a new couple.  More fool I!  Should have gotten a clue when their first morning after started with an interrupted kiss and then an turn to the comedic rather than the romantic.  Second episode in as a new couple and they give us another woman straddling Castle for laughs.  Massive fail.

 

Yeah in hindsight those first couple of episodes set the tone for what was to come in their romantic exchanges. Interruptions, dodgy lighting and comedy slapstick that is anything but amusing with Castle often at the forefront being made to look sadly often insensitive and foolish. It's a formula they seem comfortable with and had they intended to make any changes it would have happened by now. 

 

What I found most insulting about the entertainment reporter was having Castle chased around the room when he wanted her to stop and then being straddled by her for fun when they could never have got away with that if the position had been reversed but because it's the guy being chased around it's funny. Urgh.

Edited May 1, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

Pi/Alexis arc was another massive fail.  Enough said.  Worse of all was how badly it damaged Castle/Alexis characterisation.  Never made sense to me either how Castle wouldn't have told Alexis about his proposal and how she became pissed off at him so much as a result.

I'll never feel the same way about the father-daughter relationship after that awful Pi arc, no matter how well they get on now that was such a damaging episode As for Castle not telling Alexis it was ridiculous and made no sense given the timing that he couldn't have told her before she left and I don't believe for one second that Castle wouldn't have told Alexis himself but instead he gets Martha to tell her over the phone? Not buying that one bit, it goes against everything I know about the man, that was an example of the writers ignoring character continuity for plot purposes. 

[oberon55]

All of these things were plot not character driven. As close as they were at the end of s2 they had to drive a wedge between them (no matter how OOC it was) to keep them apart. So they pulled the dating other people card. But that doesn’t generate enough angst so they had Castle & Gina breakup so he could pine after Beckett without appearing unfaithful. The longer they were in love the more unbelievable & over the top the wedges had to become. It's classic WTWT. Trying to walk a tightrope of yes they love each other (and are completely right for each other) but no they can't possibly get together.

[readster]

I'll never feel the same way about the father-daughter relationship after that awful Pi arc, no matter how well they get on now that was such a damaging episode As for Castle not telling Alexis it was ridiculous and made no sense given the timing that he couldn't have told her before she left and I don't believe for one second that Castle wouldn't have told Alexis himself but instead he gets Martha to tell her over the phone? Not buying that one bit, it goes against everything I know about the man, that was an example of the writers ignoring character continuity for plot purposes. 

Completely agree. Like I said I had asked Molly Quinn about it last year when I met her at a convention and she thought it originally sounded interesting and it was meant to go longer but she said it didn't make sense why her own father would not let Alexis know he was engaged.

[zen415]

They picked the worse option which was to have Castle not approach her and Beckett to stay passive and that made both individuals unlikable to me  I don't blame Castle being pissed off but I wish they had either got him to man up and have it out with her or leave. By the time they got to Undead Again I was willing him to give up on her because I'd had enough. The writers have this gift when it comes to their relationship woes of making me dislike both characters instead of sympathising with them which is presumably the general idea.

 

Exactly. I got how hurt both were hurt by the other but they were just so unlikable during that arc. I think the writers were trying to keep it even between them but it was just so poorly done. It is such a contrast with 3.24, where both were hurt but still likable even if they are so flawed. The confrontation in Kate's appartment, the talk between Montgomery and Kate, between Martha and Castle after he throws his glass, etc. were all so powerful and so revealing. I don't want eiher character to be perfect, I just want their flaws and reactions to be explained so Ican relate to them.

 

madmaverick. Wonderful post.

 

I didn't like the way they stalled on their relationship with the Demming/Gina situation but at the same time with hindsight they weren't emotionally ready to get together. Beckett certainly wasn't and I don't believe Rick at that was stage was in love, he was getting that way but if this had been RL I could have seen them coming unstuck.

 

Didn't see Gina coming at all and that was probably my first big question mark about the show.   Felt like a forced obstacle between Caskett more than an organic development at that point because all indications till then was that no love was lost between Castle and Gina.  But OK... the angst in the S2 ending still gets to me and Beckett's reaction still packs a big emotional punch.  More so than many of the angsty moments in later seasons somehow, which often pissed me off because the characters were behaving so unnaturally and ridiculously.

 

Didn't Castle go out with some random actress right after Boom? Wasn't Kate still staying at his loft then? It's like there must have been something to make them pull back because they were emotionally close at that point. The writers could have shown the doubts creeping in for both of them and making them pull back. Then, the Demming/Gina arc would have make sense. Kate would have gone for someone reliable, without a playboy reputation, and I could have understand Castle going back to someone who is familiar to him and whitewashing the bad history between them. They didn't tell the middle part of the story. However, I totally agree that ending was a such a sucker punch and pulled at my heartstrings.

 

 

S3 started on a bit of an off note to me.  I didn't really get the rationale of Beckett being portrayed as righteously pissed at Castle. He said he would be back in the fall and he was, so... huh?

 

I always thought the Montgomery/Ryan/Esposito/Beckett were all upset because Castle never called them during the summer and they felt used because not that he had enough material for his books, he ditched them. And then, they find out he was back in the city and never reached out to them. There was an element more than hurting "Beckett", which was still of course an important fact. Castle thought they would call, Beckett and co thought he would call: classic misunderstanding because both parties fell hurt. And I liked how both parties got to call out each other: "Why didn't you call?" and "Ever stop to think that I was waiting for yout to call me?". I thought that was well done.

 

 

The "season of secrets" didn't work for me as a dramatic engine because it dragged and dragged and this was the first season where I felt they were really putting things on hold unnaturally.  One entire season of them not having an honest conversation about all this was too unbelievable.  We had a great episode in Cops and Robbers, which really should have led somewhere (!!) because hello near death experience should spur courage and honesty, or even Cuffed, but basically they just wanted to keep Caskett in the same stagnated place.  Tried to appease us with some actual hand holding, but seriously?  Weak stuff!

 

I find the episodes of the first half Season 4 work as stand-alone episodes. You can't see the continuity of the previous seasons but taken indivudually, these episodes give great little moments. However, because the secrets are dragged forever and there are no direct steps to solving them, these moments got lost. If Killshot would have been earlier in the season, it could have highlighted the trauma Kate went through and explained her messed up emotional stage and why Castle was being so cautious around her.

 

 

The scene in Always was so raw and passionate, I was expecting more of the same in their early days as a new couple.  More fool I!  Should have gotten a clue when their first morning after started with an interrupted kiss and then an turn to the comedic rather than the romantic.  Second episode in as a new couple and they give us another woman straddling Castle for laughs.  Massive fail.  S5 never really gave me the honeymoon period of new discoveries of each other as a couple, as lovers, that I'd hoped for.  We didn't really see them learning new things about each other and learning to mesh their lives together.  The whole keeping their relationship secret from their coworkers was another fail in terms of making it dramatically fun and interesting.  Cheated of Lanie finding out about the relationship.  No, instead, we get a scene of her comforting teary Beckett while Castle is suspected of murder and her asking Beckett if she's really sure about him.  How nice.

 

Thay had some great moments but I agree they did drop the ball on some key elements. That goes back to not dealing with issues in depth.I totally thought they would milk the coworkers ignoring their relationship for a few more episodes. It felt like they were trying to cram too much in each individual episode. I thought Probable Cause was great but there was so many underlying ideas that could have been explored. Same with the episode with Meredith. It's similar to the superficial Season 6 wedding planning but only for the beginning of a relationship. 

 

 

Alexis kidnapping 2 parter was good though in the 2nd half of the season.

I'll be in the minority and say I did not care much for that 2-parter. Maybe is because by then, I really did not care much about Alexis and because the whole reveal of Castle's father felt flat to me. I thought we would understand more Castle's feelings about being abandonned, about the struggle Martha and him went through, Castle's anger towards his father, etc. Instead we got a "My father is in the CIA! Cool!".

 

 

We get another lovely angsty arc to conclude S5, second only to the douchebag arc in its obnoxiousness and ridiculousness.  TS&TQ ranks amongst one of most hated Castle episodes of all time.

Hee. It came out of nowhere, didn't it? It would not have been so bad if the writers had seen Kate feeling like Castle was loosing interest in her because they were together, that the novelty had worn off, etc. Same as with the carrer opportunity. Both that end of that season was just so contrived IMO, I was having whiplash: One minute he is ready to die with her, the other he is ignoring her; one minute she does not like the feds, the other she wants to be one of them. It seems they get an idea for the finale and the last few episodes, they bend everyone and everything to make their ending fit. 

 

I won't go in my hate of Season 6 (except for some episodes) and the finale. It does not exist. :)

Edited May 1, 2015 by zen415

[pepper]

 

It's not so much that I fault Beckett for acting that way, but the writers seemed to think she was 'in the right' which ticked me off a little.  Same way Alexis was presented as the one deserving of an apology from Castle during the Pi thing even though she wasn't exactly respectful towards him.

 

I'm not sure there's a parallel between Beckett's attitude and Alexis's. Castle had ample opportunities to show Beckett that he was a serious guy of the sort she signaled she was interested in and he didn't, then Demming came along acting like exactly the right kind of guy. After more than a year of hearing a twice-divorced guy remind you of how not-serious he is, Beckett's uncomfortable decision made sense. In no way do I see that as being disrespectful to Castle. As a result of her actions Castle took off with Gina, fair enough, but certainly seeming to confirm that he was never serious about Beckett in the first place. So I could see both sides of the issue at that point and didn't see a need for him to apologize. 

 

Probably not wanting to witness Beckett in love with another man, he left the work behind along with the woman. That he never thought enough of the squad to call once in several months would signal to me that there was no foundation in friendship to what they'd had. So work-wise, it's somewhat presumptuous that he would expect that when he was ready to come back it would be business as usual. Acting like a jilted lover towards Beckett after never making a grown-up move on her was one thing, but he shut out Ryan and Esposito, as well. I understand their feeling used - even before their protectiveness of Beckett.

 

I know that most people who haven't seen friends for months because they're out of town, get in touch pretty soon after they get back. A call doesn't take that long and the onus was on Castle to get in touch, since nobody knew when he'd be back. So Beckett finds out he's back via a store display; I think the writers made a good case that she was "in the right" to be a bit miffed by that - even if Castle didn't know she'd been pining for him all summer.

 

Pi was an inconsiderate house guest, but one who meant well. Castle never addressed the issues, acted as though he was too afraid of offending Alexis to stand up for himself. In that scenario, Alexis could and should have been sensitive to the situation and done something, or Castle should have asserted himself instead of acting like an emasculated Basset Hound.  No need for Castle to apologize, except to himself for being a wimp. HOWEVER, the tables completely turned when Alexis moved out with Pi and invited Castle over. If any guest in my home acted the way Castle did, I don't think the relationship would have survived. He was condescending, acted as though their home, their furniture and the meal they prepared for him weren't up to his standards, sneered at Pi's occupation (which was probably doing a lot more good for humanity than writing mysteries) and generally let the audience know where Alexis had learned how to be an ass. Martha tried to show him how well-mannered people behave in other people's homes, but he was having none of it. So if he apologized for that, I think it needed to be done.

 

The only problem I have with that, is that at no point did Alexis act as though she had been anything less than perfect. No acknowledgement that she should never have brought Pi to live in the loft without first discussing it with her father, or that his actions while there were sometimes inconsiderate and she failed to address that. Years later, Beckett apologized for her own bad behavior, but I don't remember Castle ever apologizing for being a douche during the infamous douchebag arc... So maybe the parallel is more between Castle and Alexis than Beckett and Alexis.

[oberon55]

Probably not wanting to witness Beckett in love with another man, he left the work behind along with the woman. That he never thought enough of the squad to call once in several months would signal to me that there was no foundation in friendship to what they'd had.

 

I'm not sure how much of a friendship Castle felt they had. What always gets whitewashed over is the way Beckett treated Castle as a work partner during this time. Beckett shut Castle out, basically replaced him with Demming while they worked on cases, and every time she did talk to Castle it was to belittle or insult him. I don't blame Castle for not wanting to stick around under those conditions or being hesitant to return.

[verdana]

I'm not sure how much of a friendship Castle felt they had. What always gets whitewashed over is the way Beckett treated Castle as a work partner during this time. Beckett shut Castle out, basically replaced him with Demming while they worked on cases, and every time she did talk to Castle it was to belittle or insult him. I don't blame Castle for not wanting to stick around under those conditions or being hesitant to return.

Completely agree, she gave the impression she didn't need him there any more during that period, Demming was doing a great job and she obviously was attracted to him. I'm not suggesting she shouldn't have been keen on him but I remember Castle asking what he could do when she was inviting Demming to join her in the interrogation room (usually where Castle would be) and she said "you can watch" and walks off and dismissed him just like that and I thought why are you being so mean? There was no reason for her behaviour that I could see and.I don't blame Castle for deciding to eventually call it quits, there was no obvious reason for him to stay around. If he couldn't work with her on cases and help out and she was dating this guy what was was the point? He ends up looking pathetic and needy. 

 

I always thought the Montgomery/Ryan/Esposito/Beckett were all upset because Castle never called them during the summer and they felt used because not that he had enough material for his books, he ditched them. And then, they find out he was back in the city and never reached out to them.

 

They could have called him if they really wanted to find out what was going on but they didn't bother either. It annoys me that the onus is on Castle constantly to prove himself as a true friend and that he's reliable and trustworthy etc. It never goes the other way, no one ever thinks of calling him to find out how he's doing or to reassure him. Meanwhile his so called "friends" take advantage by demanding favours from him when he asks for help rather than doing it regardless. They're not genuine good friends, their ultimate loyalties clearly lie with Beckett (which I can understand) and they always have done and they put up with him because of her basically. I don't have much sympathy with their hurt feelings since they were expecting him to do all the running and usually always do.  That's not true friendship, they're friendly co-workers nothing more. 

[pepper]

My post wasn't intended to debate Beckett versus Castle in the season 2 closer since a) it's been done to death and b) I understand both sides of why they went their separate ways. But when Castle chose to leave, he cut all ties. Obviously some people see that as justifiable since he felt unappreciated for his detective skills and he had no friendship with the guys at the precinct. If that's the case, then he absolutely should not have contacted them from the Hamptons or called them when he got back. Nor should he have expected to be accepted back in the precinct with the business reason now gone.

 

But after almost two years, that's not how I saw things, so I understood the detectives' feeling used. Castle's research was done so he dropped them and never looked back - at least from what they could tell. I don't see a parallel between Beckett acting that out and Alexis being rude to her father in his own home after she had invited her inconsiderate boyfriend to live there without permission.

 

 

They could have called him if they really wanted to find out what was going on but they didn't bother either. It annoys me that the onus is on Castle constantly to prove himself as a true friend

 

If a famous person worked with me for a year, then went away for a romantic summer with a rekindled love, I'm not sure I would be comfortable interrupting that just to say hello. In real life, I think the onus would be on Castle to initiate contact after such a grand exit and it wouldn't have anything to do with proving himself; it's just that the other way around would seem kind of stalker-ish. Like calling someone who's on honeymoon to ask how it's going.

[verdana]

HOWEVER, the tables completely turned when Alexis moved out with Pi and invited Castle over. If any guest in my home acted the way Castle did, I don't think the relationship would have survived. He was condescending, acted as though their home, their furniture and the meal they prepared for him weren't up to his standards, sneered at Pi's occupation (which was probably doing a lot more good for humanity than writing mysteries) and generally let the audience know where Alexis had learned how to be an ass. Martha tried to show him how well-mannered people behave in other people's homes, but he was having none of it. So if he apologized for that, I think it needed to be done.

 

When he went around to their home and acted as he did I'd have had more sympathy if they had removed the exchange where Castle looking at the lack of decent furniture sensibly offers them a spare couch he's got (which given his finances wouldn't have been an old wreck) and Pi says "what colour is it?"  Castle lost his composure which was wrong as he was a guest in someone's home but I couldn't help feel sorry for him despite his behaviour because the writers had made Pi such an irritating, useless character during his stay in the loft by the time it got to this episode I hated the sight of him. 

 

As for Alexis and her sudden desire for independence asserting itself I'd have admired her stance more if her college education etc wasn't in all probability being funded almost exclusively by Castle. If she was affronted about her father's attitude towards her and the love of her life (at the time) the solution was simple - cut ties. Show Castle the door immediately, get a job like Pi had done then she was free to do as she pleased.   

 

[verdana]

'll be in the minority and say I did not care much for that 2-parter. Maybe is because by then, I really did not care much about Alexis and because the whole reveal of Castle's father felt flat to me. I thought we would understand more Castle's feelings about being abandonned, about the struggle Martha and him went through, Castle's anger towards his father, etc. Instead we got a "My father is in the CIA! Cool!".

 

I never liked Brolin as an actor, he comes over as an arrogant so and so during interviews and I suspect Marlowe was under pressure to write the episodes a certain way to keep the big guest star happy so that probably didn't help. Looking back I wish they had left it that Castle never knew his dad and was happy with that and could just dream he was anything he wanted him to be. That felt right for the character that he had made peace with it and moved on with his life. However, they created a story presumably to give Nathan something more substantial but their choices when it came to spydaddy felt a little off and I thought they didn't really shed any light on on their relationship during that two parter or when he returned.  There were a few lovely moments with Martha/Brolin and also Nathan but overall it didn't go anywhere that significant or peel back any deep layers on the "Castle onion" and I don't see Brolin ever returning. It also was a bit laughable that spydaddy said he's been in the background all this time watching out for them ready to leap to the rescue yet poor Castle has suffered all sorts of traumas most notably due to his recent disappearance which involved the CIA yet dear old dad was nowhere to be seen. 

[KaveDweller]

I totally got why Castle acted cold after that. Now, I'm not in the "Beckett is lucky he ever spoke to her again" camp, but she did bring a lot of that coldness and hurt on to herself because she couldn't just tell Castle she needed time.

 

Oh, I totally get why he acted cold too.  That is one thing that I thought was good about that arc, I could understand why both of them were acting the way they did, and I could also understand why the other was hurt by the other.  It felt very human.

 

I always get the distinct impression that Castle and Beckett find out things about the same time as the audience do when it comes to their relationship, unlike some I don't believe they talk about much off screen either so I disagree and don't see where this great communication is happening constantly between them.

 

Except we do get indicators that they talk and we don't see.  They've referred to talking about kids a few times, in Sleeper we heard that they'd been talking about Castle's sleep issues before that day, during the P.I. arc we saw them talking about Castle's doubts, etc. I can't think of a time there was a pressing issue that didn't get discussed. Castle did go to Montreal by himself and he went off by himself in Sleeper, and I have an issue with that, but we saw that he came back and talked to Beckett about what happened.  So that isn't really a communication issue.

 

Yes, the show can be very superfical about many issues, but I still don't see anything that indicates they have poor communication (which I'm usually sensitive too).  MMV of course.

 

Castle has to be shown to be ignoring sexytimes with Beckett in favour of videogames (wtf) which leads to her being semi-interested in a handsome billionaire 

 

I agree that was a horrible episode, but I actually don't think Beckett seemed at all interested in Vaughn.  I think she seemed very insecure about Castle.  Vaughn makes that comment about whether it was serious with Castle and you could see her panicing about how she didn't really know (which was silly based on Castle's actions, but whatever).  Then while she seems all worried about that, Vaughn leans in and kisses her, and she pulls away instantly.  It was all contrived and ridiculous, but I didn't take it as Beckett actually considering hooking up with Vaughn or thinking he was better than Castle.

 

Meanwhile Beckett was infuriating with her unwillingness to be proactive about the situation. She spoke to everyone but the one person she needed to and it seemed that she was prepared to let him walk away and still do nothing to help herself.

 

At the end of season 4? I disagree, she tried to talk to Castle several times and he kept blowing her off.

[zen415]

The only problem I have with that, is that at no point did Alexis act as though she had been anything less than perfect. No acknowledgement that she should never have brought Pi to live in the loft without first discussing it with her father, or that his actions while there were sometimes inconsiderate and she failed to address that.

 

That Pi/Alexis story ruined Alexis for me. I liked her well enough early on but by Season 5, I didn't care too much about her either way. When season 6 started, I thought I was watching a whole new character. Who the hell was that? To this day, she remains an arrogant know-it-all to me. I cannot stand her and I cannot stand how Castle, the cool-but-who-could-be-stern-dad earlier, became an apoligizing mess because of her. He was completely different from Season 2 Castle calling Paige's parents when she had too much to drink or something even if Alexis did not want to. The only thing we know about Alexis concerns her love life and that she studies hard. I don't see her treating her father with any kind of respect, there is virtually no interaction with Beckett and her relationship with Martha is mostly offscreen. I just keep hearing how great she is by everyone and I don't see how amazing she is or what makes her so special. Seriously, just stick a note on the bottom of the screen saying "Alexis is love" and let's be done with it shall, ok, show? [/rant]

 

Sorry, I needed to get that off my chest. :)

 

I'm not sure how much of a friendship Castle felt they had. What always gets whitewashed over is the way Beckett treated Castle as a work partner during this time.

 

 

They're not genuine good friends, their ultimate loyalties clearly lie with Beckett (which I can understand) and they always have done and they put up with him because of her basically. I don't have much sympathy with their hurt feelings since they were expecting him to do all the running and usually always do. 

 

 

My post wasn't intended to debate Beckett versus Castle in the season 2 closer since a) it's been done to death and b) I understand both sides of why they went their separate ways. But when Castle chose to leave, he cut all ties. Obviously some people see that as justifiable since he felt unappreciated for his detective skills and he had no friendship with the guys at the precinct. If that's the case, then he absolutely should not have contacted them from the Hamptons or called them when he got back. Nor should he have expected to be accepted back in the precinct with the business reason now gone.

 

But after almost two years, that's not how I saw things, so I understood the detectives' feeling used. Castle's research was done so he dropped them and never looked back - at least from what they could tell. I don't see a parallel between Beckett acting that out and Alexis being rude to her father in his own home after she had invited her inconsiderate boyfriend to live there without permission.

 

Let me also apologize if I started any Castle vs Beckett debate. That was not my intention at all. I understand both sides also and to me, one was not better than the other. I just wanted to point out that there was a major "jump-the-shark" moment and maybe "character reset (?)" after Boom that did not add up.

 

Oberon and Verdana, you are right, Beckett's behaviour (not only Castles') did not add up in the preccinct with Demming.  I would go back and do a timeline but I find the end of season 2 hearbreaking to watch (even if understandable). I do think that Castle should have been the one to call for the reasons mentionned by Pepper but I agree the burden was not solely on him. Which is why I'm glad he got to call out Beckett and co on why they did not call him either. On that, I thought both sides were well illustrated.

 

 

Meanwhile his so called "friends" take advantage by demanding favours from him when he asks for help rather than doing it regardless.

 

Was it an issue back then? I remember it one or twice then but there was nothing consistent. I did not mind it because they were shown to hang out together for fun also. The last 2 seasons, it bothers me more, probably because of the lack of balance.

 

On a positive note, the bet in 3x01 is one great moment between Castle/Beckett. :) It was a great way for 2 proud people to work together again without coming out and asking the other to rekindle their work relationship.

Edited May 2, 2015 by zen415

[KaveDweller]

I always thought Beckett's behavior at the end of S2 was partially trying to mess with Castle the way he had with her.  He'd been following her around for a year, "pulling her pigtails" and just enjoying getting her annoyed.  So, keeping him away from the investigations she was working was her just trying to annoy him for payback.

 

I don't mean I think she was trying to make him jealous of her dating Deming or make him feel badly and that she didn't appreciate him.  I don't think she really believed Castle was seriously into her at that point.  I think she just saw it as a way to ruffle feathers.

[femmefan1946]

That he never thought enough of the squad to call once in several months would signal to me that there was no foundation in friendship to what they'd had. So work-wise, it's somewhat presumptuous that he would expect that when he was ready to come back it would be business as usual. Acting like a jilted lover towards Beckett after never making a grown-up move on her was one thing, but he shut out Ryan and Esposito, as well.

 

He was away from the city for a few weeks, working on a deadline for his new novel.

What kind of friend has to be in touch constantly? My houseguests just left. Until we arranged for them to stay with us (they didn't want to stay with their daughter and her wife because of all the cats) we had not so much as emailed in nearly a year.

You talk with friends when you have something to say.

And it really was from what? May /June to September?

 

To say nothing of the sort of friendship the boys show to Castle, which seems to be demanding of perks (sports tickets and car usage) rather than the sort of support he gets from his poker buddies.

[verdana]

At the end of season 4? I disagree, she tried to talk to Castle several times and he kept blowing her off.

 

The one time I can recall her trying to talk to him was in the precinct when he's going off with Jacinda. I thought the writing on this arc reached it's lowest ebb about then because they had Castle say to her he needed someone less complicated in his life right now which was beneath the character and shoddy writing. But at the time when she watches him walk away with this hurt and confused look on her face (Stana does them so well heh) I felt frustration with her because this is the woman has been working towards the chance of happiness for months with this man even going to a therapist to be ready. She's watched whilst he upsets and confuses her with his distant, cold behaviour, the guy who she thought also wanted her and now he's pulling inexplicably away and yet all it takes is one brush off and that's it she promptly gives up and is prepared to carry on living in pain and ignorance. 

 

I found that passive and pretty weak willed for someone that has shown inner strength in many ways and is certainly no wall flower in her professional life and yet with something this vital to her emotional well being she wasn't prepared to do go the extra mile and get to the bottom of what was going on? That seemed odd to me. Which is why I enjoyed some of the "fix it" fics over that summer where he's doing something similar in wanting to walk away and pretend there's nothing wrong (without the cruel words) and she steps up and has it out with him. That worked much better for me than what the writers served up during this period. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

Was it an issue back then? I remember it one or twice then but there was nothing consistent. I did not mind it because they were shown to hang out together for fun also. The last 2 seasons, it bothers me more, probably because of the lack of balance.

 

Oh may be they weren't then, they have done it the past at various times though, asking to borrow the Ferrari is a popular one and it bugs me even it's played as being funny. The boys have had some good scenes together with Castle over the years (although I don't find as many are as enjoyable as they used to be) but I don't see the relationship with Castle as being a genuine friendship with all that involves that's all, at least I don't see evidence of that on my screen. I agree that over the last two seasons there's been a lack of balance (a familiar complaint) with Castle being more put upon and him not being allowed to hit back and make fun of them as he used to do. Then there's Espo inexplicable pissy behaviour towards him that's been going on for ages that no one can get to the bottom of.

 

Although I read on the IMDB forum recently that when someone had interviewed MilMar they had asked about this and they said that Espo was simply showing loyalty towards Beckett and acting like a brother and that they write the characters like New Yorkers can sometimes be tough and couldn't care less about people's feelings. That still doesn't completely explain to me why Espo acts the way he does to Castle on some occasions and it's been confusing and upsetting quite a few, once again fans need to read an interview in order to understand the character's motives.

[verdana]

The only problem I have with that, is that at no point did Alexis act as though she had been anything less than perfect. No acknowledgement that she should never have brought Pi to live in the loft without first discussing it with her father, or that his actions while there were sometimes inconsiderate and she failed to address that.

 

 

To this day, she remains an arrogant know-it-all to me. I cannot stand her and I cannot stand how Castle, the cool-but-who-could-be-stern-dad earlier, became an apoligizing mess because of her.

 

It seemed clear that from MilMar's perspective during this story arc Alexis could do no wrong, all her actions were understandable and Castle was at fault for refusing to let her grow up, even Terri tweeted something at the height of the Pi arc when fans must have been giving her grief on Twitter (which I don't agree with them doing) which made it super obvious that Alexis is a special snowflake and this is all just part of her wanting to be treated as an adult. I'm with you on cringing at the sight of Castle's constantly wringing his hands and having to apologise when he had no reason to do so and it was Alexis who should have been showing some respect and understanding to her father. It was a far cry from those days when he was a loving but firm parent. 

 

MilMar said they brought Pi in as a character to be disliked by the audience and I have to ask why? Because you can bring someone in that fans love to dislike like a bad guy for example but the problem with Pi is that the wasn't a character you loved to hate fans just hated him and there's no point to that. It only causes ructions as time goes on and their presence can damage other characters and cause long term repercussions which is what has happened with Alexis and to some extent the Castle/Alexis dynamic. I hated her during that arc. It's now known that TPTB had to end the Alexis/Pi relationship suddenly and terminate the story arc before time because it was that badly received. Surely a better idea would be to have fans warm to the character and understand what Alexis saw in him but they didn't do any of that, they hardly ever interacted as a loving couple, I saw no chemistry between them and Pi was too busy annoying Castle. 

 

The lowest point for me was when her father went around to apologise and she makes him stand outside the apartment like he's shit on her shoe and rebuffs his advances. The worst bit was her telling him that she wasn't sure if what he was doing with Becket is "a good idea or if she’s really the one, but you know what? I accept it" and I wanted to punch her in the face that that point. Trying to compare her relationship with a guy she picked up in Costa Rica to that of her father and Beckett and then throwing in the idea may be she's not the one after everything her father's been through got me so pissed off. That whole arc was a typical example of how the writers seem to think making the characters unlikable at various points is good entertaining drama. *sigh* 

Edited May 2, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

I agree that was a horrible episode, but I actually don't think Beckett seemed at all interested in Vaughn.  I think she seemed very insecure about Castle.  Vaughn makes that comment about whether it was serious with Castle and you could see her panicing about how she didn't really know (which was silly based on Castle's actions, but whatever).  Then while she seems all worried about that, Vaughn leans in and kisses her, and she pulls away instantly.  It was all contrived and ridiculous, but I didn't take it as Beckett actually considering hooking up with Vaughn or thinking he was better than Castle.

 

I didn't see Beckett as being genuinely interested although I did wonder why she was suddenly so lost for words by him saying how remarkable she is as if Castle has never told her that countless times before and extraordinary too. *sigh* The whole premise of her insecurities and doubts about Castle suddenly coming in the way they did (as amplified by Vaughn's billionaire presence) was laughable and made a mockery of everything that had just gone before that. It was impossible for me to take her sudden turnaround in how she was doubting Castle and everything they had together without thinking WTF is this? 

 

This episode felt like a giant slap in the face to shippers. It was so dumb and made everyone look bad from Disinterested!Castle to Beckett's insecurities and that wretched kiss in his suite (quite right madmaverick they should never have gone there) to the tiresome miscommunication between them at the end. If there was one episode I'd like to erase from my brain completely Squab comes close to top of the list. 

 

It also caused a lot of upset in the fandom with more arguments raging back and forth which is never pleasant to witness. That episode seriously upset some fans and it's still harshly remembered to this day and it was all so completely pointless as they could have achieved their storytelling aims without resorting to this.

[verdana]

All of these things were plot not character driven. As close as they were at the end of s2 they had to drive a wedge between them (no matter how OOC it was) to keep them apart. So they pulled the dating other people card. But that doesn’t generate enough angst so they had Castle & Gina breakup so he could pine after Beckett without appearing unfaithful. The longer they were in love the more unbelievable & over the top the wedges had to become. It's classic WTWT. Trying to walk a tightrope of yes they love each other (and are completely right for each other) but no they can't possibly get together.

Plot driven storytelling has its place but it shouldn't take over and start to consume the characters where they start frequently doing things that don't make any sense and I can feel the strings being pulled by the writers. Castle over the last few seasons has become almost completely plot driven at the expense of good characterisation and that imbalance has had repercussions. I can often see the machinations of the writers in having the characters suddenly do something that's a big WTF and trying to explain it away and make sense of it takes increasing amounts of ingenuity. It gets to the point where saying you "know" the character is pretty much impossible because they can do and say anything there is no "in character" any more, they will do whatever the plot demands. 

[Driad]

 

About Beckett not telling Castle that she heard him say he loved her:  AIUI, a person with PTSD may not remember all the details from around the time of the trauma, and some of the memories may return later.  The show did not make it clear what was going on (no surprise here) but I think it is possible that Beckett really did not remember the ILU for a while.

[madmaverick]

I know that most people who haven't seen friends for months because they're out of town, get in touch pretty soon after they get back. A call doesn't take that long and the onus was on Castle to get in touch, since nobody knew when he'd be back. So Beckett finds out he's back via a store display; I think the writers made a good case that she was "in the right" to be a bit miffed by that - even if Castle didn't know she'd been pining for him all summer.

 

Mileage clearly varies then because after I've been out of town on an extended vacation, I don't immediately get in touch with people other than close friends and family.  There's work commitments, home obligations that all need to be sorted out first after you've been away for a while.  Castle had his new book release to deal with shortly on his return from the Hamptons, which was kind of a major thing for him in his non precinct work life.  He does have one and it's the one that pays the bills!  Sure, he should have called Beckett some time and his insecurities about his place with Beckett probably played into him putting it off, but he'd only just got back home!  Of course Beckett didn't know that, and that falls into my pet peeve of a character having a reaction to something while she isn't informed of all the relevant facts.  On purpose, by the writers, to manufacture drama.  Castle had to "earn" his way back into the partnership with Beckett, although of course she had to be willing to "let" him back in.  Beckett held all the power in the relationship at that point so what happened wasn't a surprise to me.  Castle was the one with the job of working hard to break down Beckett's walls.  Not looking to apportion any blame, but I just wanted more balance on the non-communication issue, just like I wanted more balance in the way the Alexis/Castle conflict was written.

 

Have read some fanfics where Castle/Beckett actually go their separate ways for a while or for good after S2 because no one had the courage to call the other. Sad, but that's sometimes how missed opportunities happen in life.

 

That Pi/Alexis story ruined Alexis for me. I liked her well enough early on but by Season 5, I didn't care too much about her either way. When season 6 started, I thought I was watching a whole new character. Who the hell was that? To this day, she remains an arrogant know-it-all to me. I cannot stand her and I cannot stand how Castle, the cool-but-who-could-be-stern-dad earlier, became an apoligizing mess because of her. He was completely different from Season 2 Castle calling Paige's parents when she had too much to drink or something even if Alexis did not want to.

 

I try to have amnesia about Alexis during that period so that her character isn't ruined for me in the present... it can work for me as long as her arrogant know it all characterisation doesn't rear its head again.  Alexis was such a refreshing, wise beyond her years yet still looking for advice from Dad character before.  It was sad when she was taken entirely in the other direction.  They took it too far when they had her 'parent' her Dad to the extreme of being disrespectful and obnoxious when her own behaviour was questionable and actually Dad did have some valid concerns.  I think they started to lose me with Alexis when she threw a hissy fit when Castle gently expressed concerns about her deciding to follow her then boyfriend to Stanford and study the subjects he did.  

 

Yes, I miss S2 Dad Castle who could put his foot down with Alexis when it mattered.  Thankfully Alexis did listen to her Dad most of the time in the last episode and even when she had a different opinion, she expressed it as one should to a parent and not disrespectfully.

 

About Beckett not telling Castle that she heard him say he loved her:  AIUI, a person with PTSD may not remember all the details from around the time of the trauma, and some of the memories may return later.  The show did not make it clear what was going on (no surprise here) but I think it is possible that Beckett really did not remember the ILU for a while.

 

Wasn't there a scene at the end of the S4 opener where Beckett told her therapist that "she lied"?  Complete with dum dum dum dramatic music.

Edited May 2, 2015 by madmaverick

[KaveDweller]

Wasn't there a scene at the end of the S4 opener where Beckett told her therapist that "she lied"?  Complete with dum dum dum dramatic music.

 

Yeah, she definitely said she lied in that episode.  I think she always remembered.

 

But symptoms of PTSD also include avoiding talking about the event and avoiding people/things that remind you of the event, as well as having trouble with relationships.  So, I think that was a factor in her not admitting the truth to Castle (and for not calling him while she was recovering).  She probably wished she did forget the whole thing.  That doesn't mean Castle didn't get to be hurt by the whole thing, but Beckett was also kind of a mess at the time.

 

I think they started to lose me with Alexis when she threw a hissy fit when Castle gently expressed concerns about her deciding to follow her then boyfriend to Stanford and study the subjects he did.

 

I think the problem is that she started only getting storylines that related to boys, which makes her much less interesting as a character and harder to sympathize with.  I know teenage girls are going to have issues with boys, but there's so many more angles they could have gone with Alexis.

[Cyranetta]

This may be simplistic, but is it possible that the plot-driven vs. character-driven issues of the past few seasons have something to do with trying to maintain some appeal to a male audience, who  are presumably more entertained by pratfall humor and puzzle-solving?