zen415

Hey, implanted memories, time-travel, anything at this point to change that Rogan-marriage. ;) Although, you are right Wendy, it probably will never get mentionned again, like the douchebag arc in Season 4. I don't know why this past marriage broke me: I can take a lot of stupidity but this was it. I agree there are several things which could be changed in the past but for some reason, that past marriage is the thing that bothers me the most even if I pretend it never happened. I guess because, as we discussed in this thread above, it was such a complete retcon of who Beckett is, the whole "one and done" and just such an obvious obstacle to delay the wedding for no good reason. I'm not an idiot and I hate being taken for granted by showrunners who think viewers have to accept any lame storyline thrown their way. Maybe it was just the last straw?

OMG! That is brilliant! I will totally accept this retcon because I hate both these stories so much. They can mention it in an episode and then never mention it again.

Stupid question: is it a thread only speculation, without spoilers? I try to stay away from the latter. I like to be surprised as much as possible. I would love to see more Martha in a B stroyline, like in Dead from New York. They could do the same kind of B storylines with Ryan and Espositio instead of 1 episode heavily featuring them by season. I would also love to see more of Gates and Jim Beckett. I want more balance. I still want a lot of Caskett but maybe include more of the cast in each episode. And please, less exposition. I get tired of 5 suspects in the box every episodes and would prefer more theory-building. They could also focus more on relationships. ETA: Thanks Verdana!

I liked seeing all the family all dressed up and ready to celebrate, the muder call at the end. It did feel like a nostalgic series finale. I would have also preferred a more lighthearted finale but this works for me too. Ryan/Espo's anniversary, the family moment at the beginning that did not feel forced, Gates/Beckett, Castle/Beckett (swings, apartment) were all nice moments and I think this what this show does best: focusing on little moments that build up relationships. This is what I love about Castle. I also loved the Beckett/Castle argument about the voice. I liked how she realized he really needed her to believe him and how he realized that she was only telling him that his testimony based on memories was not enough. It shows conflict (and its resolution) in a grown-up way and feels real and much less contrived than some of the other conflicts we were subjected to in past seasons. Yeah, me too. Especially because they made such a big deal about how this affected Castle. I have to say I'm glad that there was not much tedious exposition in this case: it moved swiftly and allowed to focus on the main characters more. Maybe a two-parter would have dragged things too much? I was surprised Castle killed the psychiatrist at the end: I thought they were going to set him up as Castle's next nemesis, since 3XK is dead. I fell for it. I totally thought she was getting fired or on probation for all the reckless things she did over the years. Please, "no Senator Beckettt" storyline, I don't see it. I think I'm suffering from PSTD after the 6x23 finale. I am extremely relieved after this episode. :) I think this my only complaint about this episode. I liked it but it was a bit generic. They did refer to the "you have no idea" and "always" but I found it may not have the same punch as the "partner in crime and life" of their vows, which I loved and found unique. Same with Alexis: his speech to her might have been more memorable if he had pointed out that she is amazing because she acknowledges her mistakes or is stubborn instead of the standard "you are already amazing" . I found the "brothers in arm" comment nice but it did not add up in this episode for the reasons everyone else pointed out.

I don't think they could have extended the WT/WT period more they did. Season 4 felt like they were trying too hard to keep them apart because the exectution sucked even if the ideas were not bad. I don't know how they could have extended it more without losing fans: I know it annoyed me on The Mentalist because I just felt jerked around and watched only from time to time after awhile because of that. Although there was some cute moments between Castle and Beckett after they got together, I think they definitely missed the boat on the honeymoon period. If they had had the same good writing as Seasons 1-3, I think Caskett together would have been awesome but they just seemed to go from plot device to plot device: sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not. I'm not sure if I can choose pre-Always vs post-Always because there are some super cool moments when they are together post always that I love even if I think the show was consistently better from Seasons 1-3.

I wish they would show more moments between the boys and Castle, build on that friendship. It would make the money-grabbing much less annoying. Anyway, I agree with you about Esposito. That would require a abckstory that was never provided: Was he betrayed by someone he trusted? Did he witness a rich guy getting away with criems because of his fortune? Did Castle remind him of a classmate of him who went on the wrong path? There are so many options and it would provide such a good opportunity for exploring that relationship. I totally agree with everything you just said. What makes a good show, in my opinion, is that you can recognize how a character will act when they are faced to a plot device. You understand their motivations even if you don't agree with them. You don't have to like it but you can relate to them. That has been missing for awhile on Castle. However, I find that I recognize the characters more this season than I have in awhile. Exactly! This storyine would have been so amazing if they had dealt with it properly instead of just making it a plot device to stop Cadtle and Beckett from being together. You could understand both parties, feel the turmoil and give hope at the same time but no, instead we have stupid Jacinda and clueless Beckett. Sigh. What a waste. Good point. Instead having her be all about boys all the time, it could have been about her struggling in college, being homesick, her adjusting to Beckett in her father's life, her being confused about what she wanted to do later on, her missing her Mom, etc. A bit like Martha this season where she is out with men but is also going back to Broadway. It would have added so much more depth to her character to know who she is.

I loved all these sweet moments! Add me tot he list of people who like the minor jealousy when it's obviously not too dramatic, just for fun and it's just based on some smitten behaviour. I try to stay away from spoilers so I did not see the dance until the episode and I thought it was adorably sweet. I also loved the interaction between Ryan and Esposito. "No" vs "Yes and". I like that much better than the case. I think that's what I found underwhelming: 5 different suspects, 5 different interrogations, etc. I'd rather see them build theory and inject little tidbits of information as they did in previous seasons. However, the "I know who the killer is!" was a nice touch. That was such a perfect moment! I loved Castle reassuring Martha and seeing Martha vulnerable. It just felt right, not plot-driven or forced in character development. I also loved how effortlessly Kate fitted in the family dynamics. I loved how she was the one who pointed out Martha's uneasiness to Castle but how he is the one who got to calm her down. It shows Kate has been living there for awhile and that she is part of the family and that loves Martha. And we never get to see Martha vulnerable and I like to see that side of the tough and sassy woman! Castle was perfect in first listening to her, then the pep-talk and then making her practice her first line! Also, Martha's first reaction after the show was to go find her son to celebrate at the 12th! Such a fitting end! That's the B-storyline that I want! Me too! I didn't realize who it was! I liked the sword fight though! I liked the episode in general even if I found it a little underwhelming, probably because of the beginning: "5 suspects in the preccinct" and a little too much exposition. That part was a little underwhelming. However, all the other personal interaction was on point. The other characters were in character, were relatable and were in sync. The self-derision with the SNL clip was great! "I don't really do that, do I?" "What answer will not get me sleeping on the couch?" The final takedown was all kind of ridiculous but I loved it because I wasn't supposed to take it seriously. More of that please.

That Pi/Alexis story ruined Alexis for me. I liked her well enough early on but by Season 5, I didn't care too much about her either way. When season 6 started, I thought I was watching a whole new character. Who the hell was that? To this day, she remains an arrogant know-it-all to me. I cannot stand her and I cannot stand how Castle, the cool-but-who-could-be-stern-dad earlier, became an apoligizing mess because of her. He was completely different from Season 2 Castle calling Paige's parents when she had too much to drink or something even if Alexis did not want to. The only thing we know about Alexis concerns her love life and that she studies hard. I don't see her treating her father with any kind of respect, there is virtually no interaction with Beckett and her relationship with Martha is mostly offscreen. I just keep hearing how great she is by everyone and I don't see how amazing she is or what makes her so special. Seriously, just stick a note on the bottom of the screen saying "Alexis is love" and let's be done with it shall, ok, show? [/rant] Sorry, I needed to get that off my chest. :) Let me also apologize if I started any Castle vs Beckett debate. That was not my intention at all. I understand both sides also and to me, one was not better than the other. I just wanted to point out that there was a major "jump-the-shark" moment and maybe "character reset (?)" after Boom that did not add up. Oberon and Verdana, you are right, Beckett's behaviour (not only Castles') did not add up in the preccinct with Demming. I would go back and do a timeline but I find the end of season 2 hearbreaking to watch (even if understandable). I do think that Castle should have been the one to call for the reasons mentionned by Pepper but I agree the burden was not solely on him. Which is why I'm glad he got to call out Beckett and co on why they did not call him either. On that, I thought both sides were well illustrated. Was it an issue back then? I remember it one or twice then but there was nothing consistent. I did not mind it because they were shown to hang out together for fun also. The last 2 seasons, it bothers me more, probably because of the lack of balance. On a positive note, the bet in 3x01 is one great moment between Castle/Beckett. :) It was a great way for 2 proud people to work together again without coming out and asking the other to rekindle their work relationship.

Exactly. I got how hurt both were hurt by the other but they were just so unlikable during that arc. I think the writers were trying to keep it even between them but it was just so poorly done. It is such a contrast with 3.24, where both were hurt but still likable even if they are so flawed. The confrontation in Kate's appartment, the talk between Montgomery and Kate, between Martha and Castle after he throws his glass, etc. were all so powerful and so revealing. I don't want eiher character to be perfect, I just want their flaws and reactions to be explained so Ican relate to them. Didn't Castle go out with some random actress right after Boom? Wasn't Kate still staying at his loft then? It's like there must have been something to make them pull back because they were emotionally close at that point. The writers could have shown the doubts creeping in for both of them and making them pull back. Then, the Demming/Gina arc would have make sense. Kate would have gone for someone reliable, without a playboy reputation, and I could have understand Castle going back to someone who is familiar to him and whitewashing the bad history between them. They didn't tell the middle part of the story. However, I totally agree that ending was a such a sucker punch and pulled at my heartstrings. I always thought the Montgomery/Ryan/Esposito/Beckett were all upset because Castle never called them during the summer and they felt used because not that he had enough material for his books, he ditched them. And then, they find out he was back in the city and never reached out to them. There was an element more than hurting "Beckett", which was still of course an important fact. Castle thought they would call, Beckett and co thought he would call: classic misunderstanding because both parties fell hurt. And I liked how both parties got to call out each other: "Why didn't you call?" and "Ever stop to think that I was waiting for yout to call me?". I thought that was well done. I find the episodes of the first half Season 4 work as stand-alone episodes. You can't see the continuity of the previous seasons but taken indivudually, these episodes give great little moments. However, because the secrets are dragged forever and there are no direct steps to solving them, these moments got lost. If Killshot would have been earlier in the season, it could have highlighted the trauma Kate went through and explained her messed up emotional stage and why Castle was being so cautious around her. Thay had some great moments but I agree they did drop the ball on some key elements. That goes back to not dealing with issues in depth.I totally thought they would milk the coworkers ignoring their relationship for a few more episodes. It felt like they were trying to cram too much in each individual episode. I thought Probable Cause was great but there was so many underlying ideas that could have been explored. Same with the episode with Meredith. It's similar to the superficial Season 6 wedding planning but only for the beginning of a relationship. I'll be in the minority and say I did not care much for that 2-parter. Maybe is because by then, I really did not care much about Alexis and because the whole reveal of Castle's father felt flat to me. I thought we would understand more Castle's feelings about being abandonned, about the struggle Martha and him went through, Castle's anger towards his father, etc. Instead we got a "My father is in the CIA! Cool!". Hee. It came out of nowhere, didn't it? It would not have been so bad if the writers had seen Kate feeling like Castle was loosing interest in her because they were together, that the novelty had worn off, etc. Same as with the carrer opportunity. Both that end of that season was just so contrived IMO, I was having whiplash: One minute he is ready to die with her, the other he is ignoring her; one minute she does not like the feds, the other she wants to be one of them. It seems they get an idea for the finale and the last few episodes, they bend everyone and everything to make their ending fit. I won't go in my hate of Season 6 (except for some episodes) and the finale. It does not exist. :)

I do agree it would have been too soon but I wish they would have explained why the suddent change. Did Castle not feel ready to commit? Did Kate not want to ruin their friendship? It just went from 0 to 100 without any explanation. That's my nitpick. Thank you for mentionning the ratings: I did not know that. There are so many ways they could have done this but then we would need another thread! I'm bringing over the post you made in the s7e21 thread because I love it so much and it applies to Season 4 onwards. From vanarnd1: ETA: To make it clearer that the last quote is a post from vanarnd1.

I also think both secrets were understandable and in character but they dragged it forever and also did not talk about it. They were stagnant for long chunks of the season. The problem was the execution: pacing, writing, etc. After rewatching, I could figure out what TPTB wanted to do but the way it was just poorly reflected on screen. I could see the slow build-up of getting closer in one episode and the next, poof, character reset, like nothing ever happened. I don't know if it was the procedural format, but that lack of continuity was annoying. A procedural can also be continuous, like Person of Interest, for example. I have no words. I wonder if that's the reason the wedding was so early in Season 7? I wonder if the original plan was only to marry them at the end of Season 7. Of course, I'm assuming there was a plan... I just recall reading something on how the Alexis/Pi arc came to a close much faster then planned because of poor fan reaction and I think maybe it was the same thing. I think it's more laziness then anything else. Focusing on secondary characters a little every episodes so we learn a little about them instead of one big episode would have helped the pacing. We learned so much in Season 3 and there was Martha/Alexis having a decent storyline. They could have build-up on that and focus a little more on esposito and Ryan in Season 4. Also, they don't delve into issues in depth. I thought Kate's insecurities about Castle previous playboy past, her concerns about their different lives in 5x08, Castle holding back because he is afraid Kate is not totally in (5x24) would have been great to deal with in more depth instead of the one conversation. It's like the writers have fun for the first part of the season and then, when they are writing the last few episodes, they want an arc that will lead to a great finale but they can't be bothered to write something with depth or that makes sense with the characters history. I understand the Beckett-promotion-feeling-granted-Castle-not-sure-if-it-will-work arc but it was just so rushed together and made me go where is it coming from? The idea is interesting but again the poor execution makes it flat. I feel I am repeating myself, sorry. :) As much as I love Season 2, they did jump the shark a little at the end of that season too. You have the great two-parter where Castle and Beckett get very close and then the next episode oups, Castle is back at dating some random woman. What happened? Why the sudden change?

OMG! He said that?! Good thing I don't read spoilers/interviews. I can't believe you can be that disconnected with your audience. It astounds me that they don't get how stupid plot-devices like that take away from the show and push fans away. It definitely feels like a screw you to the fans. Ouch. That douchebag arc was pretty bad: I can just imagine the forums at that time. I can even imagine Marlowe stroking his beard and thinking he is a genius while reading the comments. I'm glad I binge-watched that to get to "Always" as soon as I could. To be fair, they had some great episodes/scenes in S4-S5 but some of them just felt just like filler, fun filler, but still filler. I don't mind angst but give me hope at the same time. Since that crapfest was only limited to 4 episodes, I can comparmentalize: I'm giving these 3 episodes the same treatment I'm giving 6x23. They do not exist, I am never watching them again (even for the sweet Martha/Kate convo in 6x23): Kate was never married before marrying Castle, Castle was kidnapped, has amnesia and never found out why he was abducted but wanted to move on. I'll keep a seat for you on Denial Island. I thought both lies were both on character but I do think they dragged out Beckett's lie too long. I think Beckett's lie should have come out by mid-season: Castle being hurt is understanble but he could have understand at the same time that Kate had PTSD and had to deal with it. If they had dealt with that by mid-season, showing them getting closer and then BOOM, Castle's secret would have come out, rocking the boat. Then again, that means thinking long term and better writing. That would have also avoided the whole CIA/Sophia-as-the-previous-muse but I won't repeat what KateDweller said on it because I agree word for word.

Vanarnd1, your post makes me so wistful for the missed potential of this show. Don't get me wrong, I love the little moments like Beckett checking the flight status on her computer, Castle's doubts, Espo/Ryan working the case with urgency, the smitten flight attendant, etc.but your post reminds me of how much more it could be. I love this show, I really do, but sometimes, I wish it could be more. Sigh. Speaking of more, I missed Martha and Gates this episode. Where were they?

I think it depends. I loved Veritas even if it was a dramatic episode but I thought Dreamland (or this season's Sleeper) was horrible. Boom is the episode I caught on Space and got me hooked. Funny that I enjoy them so much more now that they are married than when they were engaged. Maybe instead of thinking of the Moonlighthing curse they should focus on better writing? It reminds me that I started watching Castle on Space, everyday and was quickly hooked. I loved Seasons 1-3. I did not mind the first part of Seasons 4-5 but I thought the 2nd part of both these seasons was only ok. I only started watching weekly at Season 6, which sucked. I am wondering if I would have liked Seasons 4-5 as much if I would have been stuck watching only one episode per week. I'm wondering if the binge-watching helps? Also, I liked how tidbits were revealed every episode about the characters and that it got deeper. I think that's what is so disappointing about latter seasons: instead of going further with these tidbits to get full-fledged characters, they only glossed over some major issues. And they still can be great as demonstrated by some awesome latter seasons' episodes. I just wish they would be more consistent.

I hate this episode and this plot with a passion. It rivals my Lorelai-sleeps-with-Christopher-in-season-6-Gilmore-Grils-finale hatred. I hated that Beckett was suddenly married for 15 years. It ruins the whole history of the character for me and it screws up the "one and done". I almost did not watch season 7 because of that and even then, my enjoyment of the show seriously decreased since that awful plot. After months of lackluster wedding planning, that was just the cherry on top of a crappy season. I actually expected something to happen that would prevent the wedding so the car crash, I could have dealt with if it would have been a decent wedding episode before. However, the fact that the car crash was crappily dealt with in Season 7 doesn't help. I actually think season 7 is much better than season 6 but man did that episode ruined my enjoyment of Castle.