S03.E07: The Unveiling/ S03.E08: Children of Wrath

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I just think that this is not the best time for Walker (or anyone else, for that matter) to be murdering people over a land dispute when there are far more important things to be concerned about.  Like surviving.  There's certainly enough land for everyone to be able to live on.  

From Walker's POV, I have to disagree.  White man's courts shut down?  No cops around to see bodies, or notice people disappearing?  This is the PERFECT time!  :D

 

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Walker is stupid.  I get that he doesn't like the Ottos and the rest of his crew, but Walker should realize that the more people to protect each other from the zombies, the better.  The two groups don't have to like each other; they don't have to live together.  However, it seems to me that both groups could manage to get together organize watch duty to keep the zombies at bay and kill them.  That's the least they could do.  I guess it would be too much to ask, and not enough drama, for them to actually farm, hunt, etc, together.

Cooperative effort requires at least a minimal degree of trust between the two parties - and THAT well got poisoned a while back.

[Ohwell]

So kill everyone around you that you don't like because of a decades-old land dispute, which means nothing in the ZA because the zombies sure don't care, have fewer people to band together to fight off the zombies, not to mention the fact that you have no idea what's going on and how many zombies there are out there.  But hey, you've got "your" land.  

Like I said, Walker is stupid. :D

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

So kill everyone around you that you don't like because of a decades-old land dispute, which means nothing in the ZA because the zombies sure don't care, have fewer people to band together to fight off the zombies, not to mention the fact that you have no idea what's going on and how many zombies there are out there.  But hey, you've got "your" land.  

Like I said, Walker is stupid. :D

That's a drastic oversimplification of the situation as a whole:

• Does a land dispute exist?  Most assuredly.
• Has this dispute been a central topic of conversation and animosity?  Oh hell yes.
• Is the simple ownership of the land in a legal sense the primary issue?  Not even close.

This disagreement is FAR more than a pissing match over who holds what deed; this is a battle for survival.  The land in question isn't simply an asset line item in a spreadsheet - it is a survival resource.  It is the only source of water in a region which (according to script) has been suffering from a drought for over 2 years now, and continues to suffer.  It has the only arable land in the region, due no doubt to its proximity to the only available irrigation source.

In the past Walker&Co. were quite obviously willing to navigate the obstacle course of the legal system - but that was when the courts were still working, and alternate resources existed to support survival.  That is no longer the case.  The courts are closed, and won't be reopening any time soon.  No delivery trucks are running to bring water or food to people who have none.  

You suggest the Walker group's preferable course should be to cooperate with their "neighbors" the Ottos for mutually survival support against their common foe, the undead.  A few things about that:

- The undead have not yet a been significant issue to either group. It's already been explicitly stated in the course of the show that in this remote pocket of the world, the inhabitants have thus far been spared virtually any contact with a significant external presence of the infected.  Recall the "prayer group" discussion: most of the kids have never actually seen an "active" infected, much less had to put one down.  Their experience has been limited almost solely to deaths/turns within their own community, and those are few and far enough between to be considered oddities (witness Geoff).  So uniting to defeat a common foe isn't going to be a good sell to the rank-and-file.

 

- You say Walker's Tribe should be working with their neighbors the Ottos instead of trying to kill them.  Have you taken a good look at the "neighbors"?  

• The neighbors with whom they've regularly been contending in the court system because members of the Tribe who tried talking to the Ottos kept mysteriously "disappearing"?  
• The neighbors who put up a fence around their (disputed) property?  
• The neighbors who guard and patrol that same fence line with armed militia?  
• The neighbors who won't give their dying neighbors water, even when they have reserves they freely admit they will probably never use?

These neighbors look to you like someone interested in forming a co-op?

 

Once again we are beset with a serious case of I-Don't-Know-itis (THANKS WRITERS!!!) - as in, we don't know:

• When - and how - did the Otto Four acquire the land?
• How long did the Otto group occupy the land before relations with the Tribe went south?
• How many Black Hat bodies have been buried on the ranch since the Colony's inception?
• When did Otto built the fence, and what prompted its construction?  
• Was the fence erected (stop laughing, you) in response to an act of aggression, or was the fence construction itself an act of antagonism?
• When was the ranch militia formed, and under what impetus?
• When did the militia start patrolling the fence line?  Have they always, or is this a recent activity?
• How many deaths have ensued on either side since installation of the fence, and/or since militia patrols started?

IMHO too many outstanding questions to prompt an automatic kneejerk response - although I think we can safely assume both the fence and the militia predate the ZA; nobody is stringing miles of high fencing or successfully training raw recruits into a cohesive militia within a six-week time window.

 

In any case, the situation here is no different than anywhere else in the ZA; in the initial stages (and frequently beyond) might equals right, and what's yours is yours only to the extent you're willing to fight to keep it.  So I don't see how fighting for something which (a) was originally yours (or you think so) anyway and (b) will significantly increase your prospects for survival, qualifies as a "stupid" act.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

That's a drastic oversimplification of the situation as a whole:

• Does a land dispute exist?  Most assuredly.
• Has this dispute been a central topic of conversation and animosity?  Oh hell yes.
• Is the simple ownership of the land in a legal sense the primary issue?  Not even close.

This disagreement is FAR more than a pissing match over who holds what deed; this is a battle for survival.  The land in question isn't simply an asset line item in a spreadsheet - it is a survival resource.  It is the only source of water in a region which (according to script) has been suffering from a drought for over 2 years now, and continues to suffer.  It has the only arable land in the region, due no doubt to its proximity to the only available irrigation source.

In the past Walker&Co. were quite obviously willing to navigate the obstacle course of the legal system - but that was when the courts were still working, and alternate resources existed to support survival.  That is no longer the case.  The courts are closed, and won't be reopening any time soon.  No delivery trucks are running to bring water or food to people who have none.  

You suggest the Walker group's preferable course should be to cooperate with their "neighbors" the Ottos for mutually survival support against their common foe, the undead.  A few things about that:

- The undead have not yet a been significant issue to either group. It's already been explicitly stated in the course of the show that in this remote pocket of the world, the inhabitants have thus far been spared virtually any contact with a significant external presence of the infected.  Recall the "prayer group" discussion: most of the kids have never actually seen an "active" infected, much less had to put one down.  Their experience has been limited almost solely to deaths/turns within their own community, and those are few and far enough between to be considered oddities (witness Geoff).  So uniting to defeat a common foe isn't going to be a good sell to the rank-and-file.

 

- You say Walker's Tribe should be working with their neighbors the Ottos instead of trying to kill them.  Have you taken a good look at the "neighbors"?  

• The neighbors with whom they've regularly been contending in the court system because members of the Tribe who tried talking to the Ottos kept mysteriously "disappearing"?  
• The neighbors who put up a fence around their (disputed) property?  
• The neighbors who guard and patrol that same fence line with armed militia?  
• The neighbors who won't give their dying neighbors water, even when they have reserves they freely admit they will probably never use?

These neighbors look to you like someone interested in forming a co-op?

 

Once again we are beset with a serious case of I-Don't-Know-itis (THANKS WRITERS!!!) - as in, we don't know:

• When - and how - did the Otto Four acquire the land?
• How long did the Otto group occupy the land before relations with the Tribe went south?
• How many Black Hat bodies have been buried on the ranch since the Colony's inception?
• When did Otto built the fence, and what prompted its construction?  
• Was the fence erected (stop laughing, you) in response to an act of aggression, or was the fence construction itself an act of antagonism?
• When was the ranch militia formed, and under what impetus?
• When did the militia start patrolling the fence line?  Have they always, or is this a recent activity?
• How many deaths have ensued on either side since installation of the fence, and/or since militia patrols started?

IMHO too many outstanding questions to prompt an automatic kneejerk response - although I think we can safely assume both the fence and the militia predate the ZA; nobody is stringing miles of high fencing or successfully training raw recruits into a cohesive militia within a six-week time window.

 

In any case, the situation here is no different than anywhere else in the ZA; in the initial stages (and frequently beyond) might equals right, and what's yours is yours only to the extent you're willing to fight to keep it.  So I don't see how fighting for something which (a) was originally yours (or you think so) anyway and (b) will significantly increase your prospects for survival, qualifies as a "stupid" act.

A very thoughtful post, indeed.

And Walker is still stupid. : D  

[Utpe]

I have to agree with a lot of the posters on here about Madison being an idiot.  She really does annoying me to no end.  It seems even Nick the junkie has more common sense than his mom some of the time.  That's some pretty shoddy writing if you throw crap against the wall just to see what sticks.

Well, no surprises there when Nick killed Jeremiah.  I didn't think the drunk was going to go out that easily.  He wouldn't put a bullet in his head due to his own selfish reasons.  Pride comes before the fall.

I'd take a TV show with Daniel and Strand any day of the week.  Honestly, they're the only reason why I keep watching this dreck.

I suppose the ratings must be pretty darn good if they keep renewing it.

[Gobi]

I wonder if giving Madison a backstory about killing  her father was a desperate attempt to make her as interesting as Daniel and Strand, who have legitimately interesting backstories that affect their behavior in the ZA.

[Iguessnot]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 8:58 AM, Ohwell said:

So kill everyone around you that you don't like because of a decades-old land dispute, which means nothing in the ZA because the zombies sure don't care, have fewer people to band together to fight off the zombies, not to mention the fact that you have no idea what's going on and how many zombies there are out there.  But hey, you've got "your" land.  

Like I said, Walker is stupid. :D

Otto's group gunned down all the folks Nick was leading to sanctuary and that sorting station Troy set up was a house of horrors. Walker was not dealing with benevolent neighbors.

[Ohwell]

11 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Otto's group gunned down all the folks Nick was leading to sanctuary and that sorting station Troy set up was a house of horrors. Walker was not dealing with benevolent neighbors.

I never suggested that Otto's group were good guys--not at all--but then neither is Walker's group.   At this point they've all got blood on their hands.

[ACW]

On 7/20/2017 at 9:28 PM, Ohwell said:

I just think that this is not the best time for Walker (or anyone else, for that matter) to be murdering people over a land dispute when there are far more important things to be concerned about.  Like surviving.  There's certainly enough land for everyone to be able to live on.  

 

Land, yes.  Land *with water*, apparently not.

[Nashville]

On 7/23/2017 at 10:16 AM, Ohwell said:

I never suggested that Otto's group were good guys--not at all--but then neither is Walker's group.   At this point they've all got blood on their hands.

Difference being the Ottos have frequently been portrayed as the instigators of violence, while the Walker group's use of violence appears to be either reactionary or retaliatory to Otto's instigations.

If someone hits you and keeps hitting you, I have zero problem with you hitting them back.  Likewise if your retaliation exceeds their initial blow - it's called payback with interest.  If the initial instigator is too much of a wuss to deal with that, then they shouldn't have started shit in the first place.

[Guest]

I think next season is going to be cowboys and Indians. So I'm out for a while. Maybe season 5 will have zombies. Have fun guys.

[heisenberg]

On 2017-07-21 at 5:22 PM, Gobi said:

I wonder if giving Madison a backstory about killing  her father was a desperate attempt to make her as interesting as Daniel and Strand, who have legitimately interesting backstories that affect their behavior in the ZA.

The only way to make Madison and her family interesting to me is by replacing Travis with Chevy Chase.

[Nashville]

20 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

The only way to make Madison and her family interesting to me is by replacing Travis with Chevy Chase.

In that case, can we get Beverly D'Angelo for Madison?

[heisenberg]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

In that case, can we get Beverly D'Angelo for Madison?

Well, I find Madison quite funny as she is now.  When she cried for Travis it was pretty hilarious to me!  :-)

[wrlord]

I don't understand how they could have been that stupid. OF COURSE Ophelia was a plant!