Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

anamika · February 24, 2018

11 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Just random musings, but does anyone else think/hope that we shall see an interaction between Tyrion and Brienne some point next season. Jaime is going to be incredibly isolated up North, surrounded by people who hate him. Brienne and Tyrion are going to be his only supporters and both have unfinished business with Jaime. In particular I would love for Tyrion to recognise the impact Brienne has had on Jaime. I just think it might be interesting.

The discussion about Jon's dreams about his ancestors reminded me of a similar interesting dream with lots of details that Jaime has near a weirwood tree :

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..............

And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. “You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.” “I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.” “We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly. The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry. “You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent. “And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn. Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.” “I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king… “Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur. “Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn. “The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull. T

I think the Jaime-Dany-Jon relationship can be interesting given Jaime's history with Aerys and Rhaegar. Then there's Jaime's oaths to Catelyn about her daughters. He pawned that off on Brienne, but he now has the chance to personally protect her daughters. There's also Bran, whom he crippled. Jaime has some baggage with respect to the Starks and Targaryens. Now that he is probably going to get a story independent of Cersei, maybe they can explore more of Jaime as a character alongside his story with Brienne.

Or maybe David and Dan will think it more interesting to have a Jaime-Brienne-Tormund love triangle sub plot going on.

Edited February 24, 2018 by anamika

Eyes High · February 24, 2018

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't think that new romantic relationships will be developed in S7. They have so much potential with characters meeting again, and won't have enough time for everything already. In-laws, friends of friends, or ex-foes bonding, as well as Instant Battle Friendships, maybe. But love starting from squat? I just don't see it.

Agreed. To quote Benjen from 7x06, there's no time.

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Although for me, the last thing that Sansa needs is a man, if she gets married (again), the most probable option* is Tyrion, precisely because their marriage was mentioned every season and moreover, they spoke rather nicely of one another.

I dunno. Sansa's trauma and apparent lack of interest in men and marriage, much less a Lannister marriage that would jeopardize her security as Lady of Winterfell given the fickle Northern lords, are the most obvious and significant obstacles, but the S7 script outlines also leaned heavily on the idea that Tyrion has a crush on Dany, which seems like an unnecessary character point if he's just going to end up with Sansa.

On the other hand, the writers did remind us in S7 that Tyrion and Sansa had been married, that they knew each other well (Jon even states that Sansa knows Tyrion better than any of them, which seems like a weird thing to say given that he befriended Tyrion on their trip to the Wall), and that they thought well of each other. There was also an interesting moment where Davos wryly comments that Tyrion sounds like a charmer and Sansa gives him a sharp "Would you not" look. Could be nothing--it would be odd given the circumstances if they didn't mention each other--but it could be setup for S8.

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I'm a sucker for Jaime/Brienne and I would love it if they were significant. They should be significant, Brienne is such an important part of Jaime's evolution, the little prickly angel on his shoulder. The thing that annoys me is how the season 7 outline would have had Brienne take Thoros' place beyond the Wall -if what I read is legit, it's hard to keep track lately will all the false leaks and reworked quotes.

If D&D were indeed planning on killing off Brienne in 7x06 and changed their minds, it would make me question whether we're going to get any good Jaime/Brienne stuff in S8.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Because who knows why these guys do anything anymore? As a long time book reader with some preconceived and strong ideas about the various characters, David and Dan's writing does not make much sense to me most of the time. There's a lot of favoritism, bias and fanservice going on in their writing. Is the Arya-Hound relationship really more significant than Sansa-Hound in the books? Arya left the Hound to die painfully and that's it for her and him in the books. It's her sister who is wishing for the Hound's presence and imagining kisses with him.

It's not clear that D&D have any idea what GRRM is planning to do with the Hound. They may not. (Bryan Cogman's commentary on 6x07 could be interpreted to imply that they don't.) So it could be that they decided to pick and choose what they wanted from the book character's arc and go with that.

As for SanSan, if D&D don't know where GRRM is going with the Hound but do know Book Sansa's endgame, that means that whatever happens with Sansa in the end, the Hound isn't part of it.

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And what about that line from the Hound about hating gingers last season? Why was that line in there? Was that just an offhand comment? A dig at SanSan fans? The Hound's standard shtick of saying the opposite of what he means? We will see next season.

He was talking to a ginger when he made that comment, and D&D seem to enjoy ginger humour (Jon made a crack a few seasons ago about how digging a latrine pit seems like a good job for a ginger).

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I don't think we can predict with any certainty their relationship based on previous seasons. I think both characters are doomed anyway and D and D may include some SanSan in there for the book fans.

If both characters are doomed anyway, why would D&D bother wasting precious screentime in the last season on building a relationship more or less from scratch--given the lack of SanSan in the show--that will be completely irrelevant? Similarly, if Sansa survives but ends up alone (or with someone other than Sandor), why bother with including SanSan at all?

I do agree that Sandor is a goner. Going by show hints, it will probably have something to do with Cleganebowl and Arya. Something something Sandor kills Gregor something something fatal wound something something gift of mercy. If I had to guess.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Eyes High

whateverdgaf · February 24, 2018

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If D&D were indeed planning on killing off Brienne in 7x06 and changed their minds, it would make me question whether we're going to get any good Jaime/Brienne stuff in S8.

I'm pretty sure Brienne did not die in those leaks, just that she was injured, close to death and it brought her and the Hound closer. Considering she was heavily injured in the books as well, I wonder if hey saved Brienne getting hurt until Jaime could be there. And their final decision was not to kill Brienne but to reuinte her with Jaime. The fact they have made Brienne go South for no real reason (didn't get Riverrun back, barely spoke at Dragonpit) other than to see Jaime makes me certain that the writers will make the most of Brienne and Jaime both being in the North.

anamika · February 24, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

On the other hand, the writers did remind us in S7 that Tyrion and Sansa had been married, that they knew each other well (Jon even states that Sansa knows Tyrion better than any of them, which seems like a weird thing to say given that he befriended Tyrion on their trip to the Wall), and that they thought well of each other. There was also an interesting moment where Davos wryly comments that Tyrion sounds like a charmer and Sansa gives him a sharp "Would you not" look. Could be nothing--it would be odd given the circumstances if they didn't mention each other--but it could be setup for S8.

Tyrion speaks of Sansa mainly to remind us that it was a sham marriage and unconsummated. Jon stating Sansa knows Tyrion better is not at all weird knowing how David and Dan write - Jon has to ask Sansa for advice in every episode because Sansa is a political expert now and Tyrion was pretty much where Sansa could have dialogue. This goes back to Sansa complaining about Jon not asking her about Ramsay and then her complaining in the first episode about how Jon does not ask her for advice. And yeah, Jon befriending Tyrion at the wall is why that scene is so eye roll worthy because Sansa basically tells him what he already knows.

And this is probably false but there is also a freefolk leak

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/7kn6cn/some_huge_info_about_season_8/

where the leaker indicates that Arya is suspicious of Tyrion but that:

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Dany and even Sansa vouch for him.

If the Tyrion betrayal plot is happening, then Sansa trusting in Tyrion could be a reason for them referencing Tyrion with regards to her.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

As for SanSan, if D&D don't know where GRRM is going with the Hound but do know Book Sansa's endgame, that means that whatever happens with Sansa in the end, the Hound isn't part of it.

If D&D don't know where GRRM is going with the Hound then it means that GRRM does not know what he is going to do with the Hound. This could mean two things: 1. GRRM is still undecided on Sansa's journey and end or 2. Like you said, whether or not he is going to reintroduce the Hound back into Sansa's story, it makes no difference to GRRM's already decided ending for Sansa.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

He was talking to a ginger when he made that comment, and D&D seem to enjoy ginger humour (Jon made a crack a few seasons ago about how digging a latrine pit seems like a good job for a ginger).

Conversely it could also be a deliberate line of dialogue to hint at the SanSan relationship, since the Hound has been known to make remarks like that where he says the opposite of what he means.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

If both characters are doomed anyway, why would D&D bother wasting precious screentime in the last season on building a relationship more or less from scratch--given the lack of SanSan in the show--that will be completely irrelevant?

As I stated above, they may do it as a nod towards the books, the book characters and for the book fans. Given their commentaries in the earlier seasons they are aware of SanSan and it's fanbase. And given that they have wasted precious screentime on Tormund leering at Brienne, I doubt they would view the Hound in some bad-ass action scenes defending Sansa from wights or soldiers as 'wasting' time.

The Hound is heading for WF at the end of last season. Is he going to spend all his time with Arya while he is there? Arya has her own book plot to carry out. She will have scenes with Jon and Dany and Tyrion. Brienne is going to be busy with Jaime. As Brienne reminds the Hound, Arya does not need protection. Sansa does.

If they do tackle SanSan on the show, I don't expect some big declarations of love or romance between them. Just some subtle interactions between the characters here and there. Maybe we will even have a re-enactment of the Battle of the Blackwater with the Hound convincing Sansa to flee Winterfell with him when it falls. Maybe she goes with him this time. Maybe the Hound dies bravely defending her. Why is it impossible for any of these things to happen?

These characters have a loaded history in the books. The Hound is a big part of Sansa's story in KL. I am not a fan of either character or their relationship, but it would be disservice to the book characters if there is no closure for this relationship and they completely ignored it. Especially when these characters are going to be in the same location.

Edited February 24, 2018 by anamika

Eyes High · February 24, 2018

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

Tyrion speaks of Sansa mainly to remind us that it was a sham marriage and unconsummated.

It's odd that you state so confidently the main intended purpose of Tyrion and Sansa's references to the marriage and each other despite having insisted that the Hound's line about gingers is open to multiple interpretations. If "we will see" in S8 whether the Hound's line about gingers was meant to relate to Sansa in some oblique way--and frankly, I think that's quite the stretch--then we will equally see in S8 whether the reminders from D&D that Tyrion and Sansa were married and think highly of each other will have any other meaning.

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And this is probably false but there is also a freefolk leak

I think you can probably stop at "this is probably false" for now. All the /freefolk "leaks" so far this year have been bogus.

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If D&D don't know where GRRM is going with the Hound then it means that GRRM does not know what he is going to do with the Hound. This could mean two things: 1. GRRM is still undecided on Sansa's journey

D&D got the main character endgames in 2013, which would presumably include Sansa, so that is extremely unlikely.

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As I stated above, they may do it as nod towards the books and for the book fans. Given their commentaries in the earlier seasons they are aware of SanSan and it's fanbase.

And given the treatment of SanSan on the show to date in spite of that fanbase (which has been shocked and appalled by the show's lack of attention to that relationship), do you really think that the SanSan fanbase has any bearing on what D&D will write in S8?

anamika · February 24, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It's odd that you state so confidently the main intended purpose of Tyrion and Sansa's references to the marriage and each other despite having insisted that the Hound's line about gingers is open to multiple interpretations. If "we will see" in S8 whether the Hound's line about gingers was meant to relate to Sansa in some oblique way--and frankly, I think that's quite the stretch--then we will equally see in S8 whether the reminders from D&D that Tyrion and Sansa were married and think highly of each other will have any other meaning.

Yes, we will see. I think David and Dan put that line in about the marriage because they have played so freely with Sansa's marriages on the show. So just like we can't say one way or other about the Sansa-Tyrion relationship, we can't say much about the Hound-Sansa relationship either. The line about hating gingers could hint at SanSan and the line about the sham marriage could hint at Sansa/Tyrion.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I think you can probably stop at "this is probably false" for now. All the /freefolk "leaks" so far this year have been bogus.

So be it. I have been on the 'Tyrion is going to betray someone' bandwagon for sometime now, way before these leaks and maybe it plays to my confirmation bias. But it's a theory of mine and so if it happens on the show, then I think Sansa's trusting him could play into that plot and could be a reason for them referencing the Sansa-Tyrion relationship. Which is my point.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

IAnd given the treatment of SanSan on the show to date in spite of that fanbase (which has been shocked and appalled by the show's lack of attention to that relationship), do you really think that the SanSan fanbase has any bearing on what D&D will write in S8?

Like I have said several times on here, I really can't predict why and what D&D write. They do their own thing and have stopped caring about logic a while back as one of the directors admitted. No one could have predicted those seven guys going on a wight hunt last season. Or when Jon met Gendry/Beric/Hound/Thoros that not one of them would discuss Arya. Or that having a wight polar bear is more important to them than having Ghost. They are not even sure of which character should be in which scene as we saw with Brienne last season. I can only try to figure out why they wrote that way after the fact. Or use the books to figure out where the story is going if D&D are sticking to the same ending.

I think they are into cool moments (wight polar bear), they like fanservice (Bronn, Hound-Arya), they love Sansa and Cersei, they think Jon is a dumb good guy, Tyrion is a clever good guy, Arya is boring and Bran is pointless and write accordingly.

This is the last season. In my opinion, Jon is suddenly going to remember how much he loved Arya, Tyrion is suddenly going to become more grey and Arya is suddenly going to exhibit leadership tendencies. I think if the Hound is in WF and Sansa is in WF, they will acknowledge this relationship.

Edited February 24, 2018 by anamika

OhOkayWhat · February 24, 2018

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

They do their own thing and have stopped caring about logic a while back as one of the directors admitted

If we are talking about the same interview with Alan Taylor, he never admitted such a thing. Paraphrasing, he said, they simply put more importance in the emotional journey of the audience, the flow of the feelings we felt watching the scenes one after other than in the level of plausibility of the same scenes.

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

they like fanservice (Bronn, Hound-Arya)

Hound-Arya scenes, besides being something very popular, is an ongoing plotline within the show.

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

we can't say much about the Hound-Sansa relationship either

Yes, we can say something: we can say they stopped writing about that relationship long ago. We can say Sansa never mentioned him again. Sandor barely twice long ago.

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

The line about hating gingers could hint at SanSan

Why to write with cryptic hints if you can make a character talk about other character in a way the whole audience get it. Why to write in that way if they never wrote about friendships or romance in that way before?

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya has her own book plot to carry out.

Arya had her own show plot to carry out. And it never included Dany or Tyrion.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya does not need protection.

Arya needs lots of protection. But besides that, within the Hound-Arya plotline D&D invested lot of time in the emotional elements of that non-romantic relationship. Therefore maybe he will be part of her emotional healing process too.

OhOkayWhat · February 24, 2018

2 hours ago, anamika said:

And given that they have wasted precious screentime on Tormund leering at Brienne, I doubt they would view the Hound in some bad-ass action scenes defending Sansa from wights or soldiers as 'wasting' time.

That is exactly my point: once they wrote about Tormund and Brienne, even if at first it was mostly unintentional (and probably they aren't endgame couple either), they kept writing about them. Why they didn't kept writing about Sandor-Sansa relationship?

Edited February 24, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

Eyes High · February 24, 2018

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Yes, we will see. I think David and Dan put that line in about the marriage because they have played so freely with Sansa's marriages on the show. So just like we can't say one way or other about the Sansa-Tyrion relationship, we can't say much about the Hound-Sansa relationship either. The line about hating gingers could hint at SanSan and the line about the sham marriage could hint at Sansa/Tyrion.

It's not just the line about the sham marriage--since in context it makes sense that Tyrion wants to reassure Jon that he didn't rape his sister--it's Tyrion praising Sansa's intelligence. Sansa praising Tyrion's kindness is nothing new, since she did that in S4 and S5, which again could point to something down the road (or not, we'll see). However, the emphasis on Tyrion/Sansa and relative inattention to SanSan (while playing up the Hound's platonic bond with Arya) is something that's been pretty consistent on the show, not something that's new in S7. Now, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the endgame, and D&D could suddenly change course in S8 as they always have, but the fact remains.

I was struck on rewatch just how shippy the treatment of Tyrion/Sansa is in the show. In S2, which you would expect to have big SanSan content given that it was based on ACOK, the writers seemed to "match" SanSan moments with Tyrion/Sansa scenes: Tyrion interrupts Sandor harassing Sansa in the deleted 2x03 scene, Tyrion panics during the riot when he realizes that Sansa is missing (while Sandor is saving Sansa), etc. Even in the 2x04 scene where Sansa is being beaten, the emphasis is on Tyrion and Sansa's interactions, with Sandor being an afterthought in the scene. Not only that, but the GRRM-written episodes have some of the shippiest Tyrion/Sansa stuff in the show: Tyrion/Sansa banter in 2x09, the romcommy back to back scenes in 3x07 where Sansa and Tyrion discuss the marriage with Margaery and Bronn (respectively), and of course 4x02 where Tyrion holds Sansa's hand and Sansa hands Tyrion the goblet so that he doesn't have to crawl.

There are ample potential explanations for why the writers have consistently played up Sansa/Tyrion and downplayed SanSan in favour of the Hound's bond with Arya--whitewashing Tyrion, the Hound/Arya friendship proved more popular, etc. etc.--but I don't think it can be denied that they did do it.

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So be it. I have been on the 'Tyrion is going to betray someone' bandwagon for sometime now, way before these leaks and maybe it plays to my confirmation bias.

Heck, I've been on the "Sansa dies" bandwagon for a while for a few reasons, so I know what you mean, but honestly, someone could "leak" in /Freefolk that Sansa dies in S8 when Viserion drops a piano on her, and there are people who would buy it.

Edith · February 24, 2018

Original tweet here:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoTlikeLocation/status/967414103047327745/photo/3

Edited February 24, 2018 by Edith

Eyes High · February 24, 2018

1 hour ago, Edith said:

snip

Thanks for the post. /gravemaster7 has since put up another post speculating that the large masses seen on the snow-covered field at Moneyglass are not horse corpses but elephant corpses. The commenters pointed out that they could also be wight mammoths.

I do think we're getting GC elephants in S8, but making them part of the attack on Winterfell seems pretty wild, even for this show.

New filming photos are popping up at the GoTlikeLocation Twitter account of the new Magheramorne set.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Eyes High

Edith · February 24, 2018

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Thanks for the post. /gravemaster7 has since put up another post speculating that the large masses seen on the snow-covered field at Magheramorne are not horse corpses but elephant corpses. The commenters pointed out that they could also be wight mammoths.

I do think we're getting GC elephants in S8, but making them part of the attack on Winterfell seems pretty wild, even for this show.

I think the battle is going to be huge! 3 months is a lot of time. I wonder if we also going to have drogon/rhaegal vs Viserion in this battle too.

The actor from the GC is appearing in two episodes. Friki and Javi speculate that it could be episodes 2 and 3. We could have Winterfell vs GC in episode 2 or at least the beginning of that battle, and the arrival of WW in episode 3.

Of course we should have a few scenes previously either in episode 1 and/or 2 of the WW attacking CB or any other nothern castle.

I remember that the actors of Alys Karstark and Ned Umber will appear next season but I don't remember if they are supposed to have scenes with the main cast, because if that is not the case, then I can see both of those castles falling to the NK

Eyes High · February 24, 2018

11 minutes ago, Edith said:

I think the battle is going to be huge! 3 months is a lot of time. I wonder if we also going to have drogon/rhaegal vs Viserion in this battle too.

Likely. Emilia has been AWOL during the bulk of the battle filming.

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The actor from the GC is appearing in two episodes. Friki and Javi speculate that it could be episodes 2 and 3. We could have Winterfell vs GC in episode 2 or at least the beginning of that battle, and the arrival of WW in episode 3.

Yes. It's also possible that some of the Winterfell battle is directed by David Nutter, since he was originally slated to direct the Field of Fire battle episode until he had to drop out for health reasons, and D&D may have given him a battle episode in Season 8 to make up for it.

We now know or can guess at several separate events that will take place in S8:

1. Jon meets with a crownless Cersei in KL.

2. Winterfell is attacked and a huge battle ensues.

3. KL is attacked by a dragon/dragons.

4. Jon and Dany travel alone to a frozen, wintry area (could be beyond the Wall, could simply be somewhere north).

5. Cersei is deposed.

6. The WWs are defeated.

The question is, what is the order of these events? Javi Marcos of Los Siete Reinos has hinted that #5 occurs before #3. #2 seems like it would have to happen before #1. No idea where #4 fits in.

Edith · February 24, 2018

47 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Likely. Emilia has been AWOL during the bulk of the battle filming.

Well Emilia doesn't need to be present for her to be part of the battle or maybe Dany is too pregnant to ride Drogon? I doubt it though, not because it would be too soon, but because Drogon vs Viserion is a guarantee of season 8.

Although I recall WOTW mentioned that Winterfell will be siege, which is an illogic development when the other side has dragons.

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Yes. It's also possible that some of the Winterfell battle is directed by David Nutter, since he was originally slated to direct the Field of Fire battle episode until he had to drop out for health reasons, and D&D may have given him a battle episode in Season 8 to make up for it.

We now know or can guess at several separate events that will take place in S8:

1. Jon meets with a crownless Cersei in KL.

2. Winterfell is attacked and a huge battle ensues.

3. KL is attacked by a dragon/dragons.

4. Jon and Dany travel alone to a frozen, wintry area (could be beyond the Wall, could simply be somewhere north).

5. Cersei is deposed.

6. The WWs are defeated.

The question is, what is the order of these events? Javi Marcos of Los Siete Reinos has hinted that #5 occurs before #3. #2 seems like it would have to happen before #1. No idea where #4 fits in

Maybe #4 is before they arrive at Winterfell? It could be a nice romantic moment between them before they find out Jon parentage/Wall falling/death Viserion/ Cersei betrayal. Although the iceland paper implied they filmed with a few extras but I don't know if that was speculation on their part.

GraceK · February 24, 2018

If the GC does attack WF before the NK is defeated , what would make Cersei do it? I haven’t figured out a motive. I know she’s evil and all her enemies are there, but wasn’t her plan to wait until the fighting in the north is over, take back her lands in the meantime and then attack? What changed? It seems crazy even for her to attack the north before the threat of the WW is over.

I’ve been wondering if maybe it’s Euron who attack’s against Cersei’s plan...

screamin · February 25, 2018

8 hours ago, GraceK said:

If the GC does attack WF before the NK is defeated , what would make Cersei do it? I haven’t figured out a motive. I know she’s evil and all her enemies are there, but wasn’t her plan to wait until the fighting in the north is over, take back her lands in the meantime and then attack? What changed? It seems crazy even for her to attack the north before the threat of the WW is over.

Maybe Cersei's plan is to wait until Jon's taken the bulk of his forces up North to attack the Night King. If he lose against the NK, the world's down the crapper anyway, so it won't matter if Cersei attacks Winterfell after he's left for the final battle. But if he wins, then the world goes on as before, except Jon comes victoriously home to a smoking ruin with no food left for his army and his people at the beginning of winter, AND probably at least one of his closest relatives a hostage with Cersei, who is now in a much stronger position to dictate terms to Jon. Yeah, it's a gamble for Cersei, but every big move she's ever made was basically a gamble.

Edited February 25, 2018 by screamin

WindyNights · February 25, 2018

On 2/23/2018 at 7:52 PM, screamin said:

IIRC, in the books the injury didn't seem acute. A man with an acute injury doesn't help in gravedigging - it's heavy work, something an acutely injured man wouldn't be fit for. The man who's probably the Hound limps, but is fit enough to do heavy work (the Elder Brother mentions that the man's been busy with nonstop gravedigging because of all the war's corpses washing up on the shores). A fit man who limps, in that medieval-ish setting, has done all the healing from an old injury he's going to do and is going to keep that limp for good.

And a man wearing the garb of a novice monk and doing such humble work nonstop is IMO a man who thinks he's found some peace in his position, and it would take a crisis to force him out of it. Sansa's disappearance didn't force him out of it - and no, he hasn't the least idea where Sansa is, but neither did Brienne, and she didn't let that stop her. Seems to me that one thing that WOULD force him out of it would be something that's obsessed him for far longer than he's ever been taken with Sansa - like finding out his loathed brother isn't dead after all. And I think that will be one point where the show and the books will come together - that the Hound's end will come in defeating his brother. The show's already hinted broadly at that with the Hound recognizing the Mountain.

The show writers have already confirmed that they have no idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound.

So anything post-season 4 isn't indicative of the Hound's future. The Hound may very well be done as a character in the books.

screamin · February 25, 2018

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The show writers have already confirmed that they have no idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound.

In what words exactly?

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So anything post-season 4 isn't indicative of the Hound's future. The Hound may very well be done as a character in the books.

I wouldn't say it definitely isn't indicative. Even if GRRM had told them nothing of what he planned for the Hound, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the showrunners making a lucky correct guess based on the hints in the books. And I do think there are significant hints...the lame gravedigger with his face cowled to invisibility showing up just when Brienne's party was telling Elder Brother that one of their missions was to kill the Hound, and Elder Brother reassuring them the Hound was dead precisely in such a way that could be read that Sandor is still alive. IMO, if it's just a red herring and Frankenmountain following Cersei's world-endangering orders (possibly to the extent of guarding and aiding in the torment of the recaptured Sansa, whose kidnapping is also hinted at in the books) ends up perishing at the hands of someone who is NOT his brother, while his actual brother stays indifferently away - well, that would be lame and a waste of good irony.

I mean, if Sandor has actually become a better man due to his near-death experience and the spiritual ministrations of the Elder Brother, is it the choice of a better man to stay away from a fight against evil when you could help in the fight? Times are coming when an experienced warrior would be a lot more use to the world than a gravedigger. And yes, he's lame, but Jaime didn't let the amputation of a hand stop him from keeping up his skills as best as he could.

Eyes High · February 25, 2018

2 hours ago, screamin said:

In what words exactly?

Bryan Cogman on the 6x07 commentary track:

Quote

"We knew we wanted to bring [Sandor] back this season. It's interesting, because in the books Brother Ray is sort of a blend of a couple of characters that actually Brienne encounters, and there's a hint that the Hound might be hiding out with one of these characters in the books. It hasn't been--George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet. We took that kernel and fashioned this storyline."

screamin · February 25, 2018

57 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Bryan Cogman on the 6x07 commentary track:

"It's interesting, because in the books Brother Ray is sort of a blend of a couple of characters that actually Brienne encounters, and there's a hint that the Hound might be hiding out with one of these characters in the books. It hasn't been--George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet. We took that kernel and fashioned this storyline."

He might have meant that GRRM hasn't written it yet - hence not put into its final form. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have "no idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound," (my emphasis) as Windynights put it. In fact, saying that they took George's 'kernel' (his broad hint that the Hound was hiding with Elder Brother) and used it as a seed to grow their own resolution to the Hound's plot sort of shows the opposite...that they do have some idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound, and just added their own enlargement of his hint.

IMO, nothing in that quote can be taken as a declaration that George hasn't told the showrunners the ultimate end of the Hound...by saying "George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet", they could be saying GRRM hasn't yet revealed that to us by writing it. I don't think it rules out the possibility that GRRM has told them, "Yeah, the Hound's going to kill the Mountain, I just haven't worked out how, yet," and they took that and ran with it where they wanted.

GraceK · February 25, 2018

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-8-filming-continues-the-aftermath-of-a-battle-and-a-new-game-of-thrones-set/

GrailKing · February 26, 2018

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-8-filming-continues-the-aftermath-of-a-battle-and-a-new-game-of-thrones-set/

Wasn't sure I saw bodies.

WindyNights · February 26, 2018

13 hours ago, screamin said:

"It's interesting, because in the books Brother Ray is sort of a blend of a couple of characters that actually Brienne encounters, and there's a hint that the Hound might be hiding out with one of these characters in the books. It hasn't been--George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet. We took that kernel and fashioned this storyline."

He might have meant that GRRM hasn't written it yet - hence not put into its final form. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have "no idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound," (my emphasis) as Windynights put it. In fact, saying that they took George's 'kernel' (his broad hint that the Hound was hiding with Elder Brother) and used it as a seed to grow their own resolution to the Hound's plot sort of shows the opposite...that they do have some idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound, and just added their own enlargement of his hint.

IMO, nothing in that quote can be taken as a declaration that George hasn't told the showrunners the ultimate end of the Hound...by saying "George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet", they could be saying GRRM hasn't yet revealed that to us by writing it. I don't think it rules out the possibility that GRRM has told them, "Yeah, the Hound's going to kill the Mountain, I just haven't worked out how, yet," and they took that and ran with it where they wanted.

Here:

Cogman admits that the Brother Ray character was a blend of a couple different characters Brienne meets in A Feast for Crows, which we figured. Interestingly, he also says that, while it’s hinted that the Hound is still alive in the books, they weren’t sure where George R.R. Martin was going to take it. “We took that kernel and fashioned this storyline.” So who knows if anything like this will show up in the books?

Also the Hound is probably done anyways. Rorge and later Lem have taken up the mantle of the Hound and the Hound is walking with a limp even several months after Arya left him. If the Hound does show up again, it won't be as a fighter.

Plus UnGregor in the books isn't actually Gregor Clegane. He's just Gregor's body fused with other body parts. He's essentially a golem.

17 hours ago, screamin said:

In what words exactly?

I wouldn't say it definitely isn't indicative. Even if GRRM had told them nothing of what he planned for the Hound, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the showrunners making a lucky correct guess based on the hints in the books. And I do think there are significant hints...the lame gravedigger with his face cowled to invisibility showing up just when Brienne's party was telling Elder Brother that one of their missions was to kill the Hound, and Elder Brother reassuring them the Hound was dead precisely in such a way that could be read that Sandor is still alive. IMO, if it's just a red herring and Frankenmountain following Cersei's world-endangering orders (possibly to the extent of guarding and aiding in the torment of the recaptured Sansa, whose kidnapping is also hinted at in the books) ends up perishing at the hands of someone who is NOT his brother, while his actual brother stays indifferently away - well, that would be lame and a waste of good irony.

I mean, if Sandor has actually become a better man due to his near-death experience and the spiritual ministrations of the Elder Brother, is it the choice of a better man to stay away from a fight against evil when you could help in the fight? Times are coming when an experienced warrior would be a lot more use to the world than a gravedigger. And yes, he's lame, but Jaime didn't let the amputation of a hand stop him from keeping up his skills as best as he could.

The Hound's alive. It's just that his story seems to be done. Bringing out the Hound to fight UnGregor actually regresses him as a character because he's finally found peace on the Quiet Isle. Also take into account that the Hound is impeded from fighting with a limp. Also Jaime's continuing swordsman practice shows that he can't let go that aspect of himself despite the fact that he'll never be a good swordsman again.

Also, why in the world would Sansa be recaptured by Cersei and taken south? That's not going to happen. Her future is in the north live or die. (The Mad Mouse is there to reveal Sansa's true identity prematurely at the Vale not actually succeed in his endeavor)

screamin · February 26, 2018

11 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Also the Hound is probably done anyways. Rorge and later Lem have taken up the mantle of the Hound and the Hound is walking with a limp even several months after Arya left him. If the Hound does show up again, it won't be as a fighter.

Plus UnGregor in the books isn't actually Gregor Clegane. He's just Gregor's body fused with other body parts. He's essentially a golem.

The Hound's alive. It's just that his story seems to be done. Bringing out the Hound to fight UnGregor actually regresses him as a character because he's finally found peace on the Quiet Isle. Also take into account that the Hound is impeded from fighting with a limp. Also Jaime's continuing swordsman practice shows that he can't let go that aspect of himself despite the fact that he'll never be a good swordsman again.

Also, why in the world would Sansa be recaptured by Cersei and taken south? That's not going to happen. Her future is in the north live or die. (The Mad Mouse is there to reveal Sansa's true identity prematurely at the Vale not actually succeed in his endeavor)

A limp is definitely a significant negative in combat - but as I mentioned, an amputated hand is far more so to a swordsman, and Jaime didn't use it to as an excuse to retire from combat and settle into the cushy administrative post Cersei was offering. He did his level best to rebuild his skills with his diminished capacity, and to compensate with soldier tactical skills he'd previously held less important, taking the harder road in the service of what he thought was right (granting that Jamie's notions of what's right aren't the greatest.)

Should we expect less from the Hound? The only way your notion that the Hound has 'found peace' on the Isle and will never leave it works is if you assume it is the kind of selfish peace that will indifferently ignore any outside call or need because it would disturb his pleasant tranquillity. Think what's going to happen to Westeros soon - the dead will rise, the living will rise to fight them AND whatever selfish leaders who will greedily and shortsightedly try to use the crisis to their advantage. The world will need men who are good at fighting, because if the NK wins there will be no need for gravediggers. And a limp wouldn't obliterate all his skills. If the Elder Brother really did make him a better man instead of merely a selfishly indifferent one, he WOULD answer that call. And if the call includes helping the girl he was taken with AND definitively kick his loathed brother's ass for good and all, so much the better. People can learn to be good people, but they can't obliterate their past selves completely.

More, I think GRRM was definitely telling us exactly that in the Quiet Isle scene. Proof? He shows us Stranger, the Hound's war horse. The Elder remarks that the stallion broke a monk's leg with a kick when they tried to hitch him to a plow. He also mentions that he thinks the name 'Stranger' is blasphemous. If both the Elder and the Hound believe that the Hound's conversion to the simple monk's life is permanent, why haven't they gelded Stranger, renamed him Abel, and broken him to the plow instead of leaving him idly eating expensive oats? IMO, it's a sign that the Hound's current state is temporary. He will eventually ride off to battle again.

As for UnGregor being a mindless golem without his head and therefore not really Gregor at all - I don't think we can say for sure that Dead Gregor was really beheaded (Doran only got an unrecognizable picked skull as proof) or that Book FrankenGregor has nothing of the personality or memory of Gregor (we've been shown nothing of his inner life in the books.)

Lastly, why are you so sure the Mad Mouse's purpose is merely to reveal Sansa's identity? What profit is there for him in that? Whereas abducting Sansa and bringing her to Cersei (who has placed a hefty price on Sansa's head) is potentially VERY profitable.

Eyes High · February 26, 2018

On 2/25/2018 at 1:35 PM, screamin said:

He might have meant that GRRM hasn't written it yet - hence not put into its final form. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have "no idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound," (my emphasis) as Windynights put it. In fact, saying that they took George's 'kernel' (his broad hint that the Hound was hiding with Elder Brother) and used it as a seed to grow their own resolution to the Hound's plot sort of shows the opposite...that they do have some idea where GRRM is going to take the Hound, and just added their own enlargement of his hint.

IMO, nothing in that quote can be taken as a declaration that George hasn't told the showrunners the ultimate end of the Hound...by saying "George hasn't revealed what he's going to do with that yet", they could be saying GRRM hasn't yet revealed that to us by writing it. I don't think it rules out the possibility that GRRM has told them, "Yeah, the Hound's going to kill the Mountain, I just haven't worked out how, yet," and they took that and ran with it where they wanted.

There are a few possible interpretations of the implications of that quote:

1. GRRM hasn't revealed to the readers how the Hound is going to leave the Quiet Isle and what he'll be up to in future books, but he has told the show writers. (I tend to doubt this one, because Cogman started off with "It hasn't been--" and then corrected himself to say that GRRM hadn't revealed what he was going to do with the hint that the Hound is still alive.)

2. GRRM didn't reveal to the writers how he's going to get the Hound off the Quiet Isle, but he did tell them the Hound's future plot and endgame back in 2013 along with that of all the other major characters.

3. GRRM didn't reveal to the writers the Hound's endgame in 2013 along with all the other character endgames, because he didn't yet know where the Hound was going to end up. (According to megafan Adam Whitehead, GRRM admitted at the 2013 meeting that there were characters whose endgames he hadn't yet decided on, like Bronn.) The writers don't know anything about the Hound's storyline post-AFFC.

The writers have insisted that they always planned on bringing the Hound back after S4, but was that because he has some essential role to play that GRRM told them about (even if he didn't tell them how the Hound leaves the Quiet Isle), or because they just loved the character? Is the show Cleganebowl that almost seems guaranteed now a book spoiler straight from GRRM himself, or just D&D being unable to resist the idea of a final confrontation between the Hound and Gregor?

12 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Also, why in the world would Sansa be recaptured by Cersei and taken south? That's not going to happen. Her future is in the north live or die. (The Mad Mouse is there to reveal Sansa's true identity prematurely at the Vale not actually succeed in his endeavor)

I don't know that we can state with any certainty that Sansa's future is in the north; there seem to be ample hints in the books that Sansa has unfinished business in KL. Furthermore, GRRM was reportedly extremely displeased with the changes to the Jeyne/Theon storyline and the liberties the show took with Sansa's post-ASOS storyline. Some saw GRRM releasing the TWOW Alayne chapter just before Season 5 aired as a passive-aggressive swipe at the show writers. (The Alayne TWOW chapter was terrible in my opinion, so if it was intended as a swipe, it didn't work as well as intended.)

I think the only real book spoiler we can take away from Sansa's show storyline in Seasons 5-7 is that Sansa will eventually outwit Littlefinger and cause his death. I suspect everything else is D&D's invention.

...On another note, one thing that's bugging me is why the 3ER took Bran to the scene at Winterfell where young Ned is leaving for the Vale (and Willas gets his brains scrambled). Now, it could be that the 3ER took him there--despite knowing what would happen--because of the time loop, but was there anything else going on in that scene that the 3ER would want Bran to see? In the two previous scenes, the 3ER seemed to have a point to what he was showing Bran: the real story of Ned vs. Arthur Dayne (Howland stabbing Arthur in the back) and the origin of the WWs.

So what was special about the third scene at Winterfell, other than the fact that Bran had to be there so that he could scramble Willas' brains and preserve the timeline? Well, what Rickard tells young Ned is very interesting: he says "Try to stay out of fights, but if you have to fight, win." Paired with a scene where the 3ER showed Howland saving Ned's life by stabbing Arthur in the back, this seems to point to the 3ER hinting that Bran needs to do whatever he must to defeat the WWs, even if it's "dishonourable." In light of the "Bran them all" theories about Bran warging a dragon to burn KL, it's food for thought.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Eyes High

Happy Harpy · February 26, 2018

14 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Also the Hound is probably done anyways. Rorge and later Lem have taken up the mantle of the Hound and the Hound is walking with a limp even several months after Arya left him. If the Hound does show up again, it won't be as a fighter.

Why bring him back anyway if he was meant to be done?

He's obviously the Gravedigger so it isn't only a show fan favorite thing. I don't see what use the Hound could have but as a fighter. Jaime can fight without a hand, Sandor can fight with a limp and take his fair share of dumb cunts.

On 2/24/2018 at 6:36 AM, whateverdgaf said:

I'm pretty sure Brienne did not die in those leaks, just that she was injured, close to death and it brought her and the Hound closer. Considering she was heavily injured in the books as well, I wonder if hey saved Brienne getting hurt until Jaime could be there. And their final decision was not to kill Brienne but to reuinte her with Jaime. The fact they have made Brienne go South for no real reason (didn't get Riverrun back, barely spoke at Dragonpit) other than to see Jaime makes me certain that the writers will make the most of Brienne and Jaime both being in the North.

I wasn't sure. I didn't remember reading she died, but I wasn't sure it wasn't written somewhere she did, and I'm wary of wishful thinking when it comes to my favorite. I do hope this storyline is going somewhere, preferably to redemption and twu luv and I would cheer with pom-poms no matter how Disney it gets. Ready to get my shipper heart crushed in the process, of course.

On 2/24/2018 at 6:18 AM, Eyes High said:

I dunno. Sansa's trauma and apparent lack of interest in men and marriage, much less a Lannister marriage that would jeopardize her security as Lady of Winterfell given the fickle Northern lords, are the most obvious and significant obstacles, but the S7 script outlines also leaned heavily on the idea that Tyrion has a crush on Dany, which seems like an unnecessary character point if he's just going to end up with Sansa.

I don't think the fickle Northern Lords will matter in the end, since I believe that most of them and their Houses will be wiped out -and the survivors will know better than question the Starks and Stargaryens again, imo. I don't think that Sansa/Tyrion would be a love match and certainly not at first, I rather thought of a Catelyn/Ned except on the long run. The Tyrion crush on Dany, I agree, is a big question mark. I really don't know where they're going with it. I imagine he could be Eowyn to Sansa's Faramir as far as tropes go.

About the Winterfell set corpses looking like elephants. IIRC, the idea of the GC attacking Winterfell began to sprout after some people inferred from blurry grainy photos that Lannister soldiers were there. It might be true, but as it was stressed up-thread, the true leaks last season were confirmed by filming, not the other way around.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Happy Harpy

SeanC · February 26, 2018

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Lastly, why are you so sure the Mad Mouse's purpose is merely to reveal Sansa's identity? What profit is there for him in that? Whereas abducting Sansa and bringing her to Cersei (who has placed a hefty price on Sansa's head) is potentially VERY profitable.

@WindyNights wasn't referring to what Shadrich himself intends (obviously, that's to abduct Sansa), but rather to what his role in the narrative is.

That's broadly my speculation as well, mainly because just based on the broad outlines we've gotten of Sansa's story and GRRM's stated ideas for her development, going back to King's Landing as a prisoner seems like a total non-starter to me. That would totally disrupt the story that's been building between her and Littlefinger, and it would pretty swiftly lead to her getting her head chopped off.

WindyNights · February 27, 2018

5 hours ago, screamin said:

A limp is definitely a significant negative in combat - but as I mentioned, an amputated hand is far more so to a swordsman, and Jaime didn't use it to as an excuse to retire from combat and settle into the cushy administrative post Cersei was offering. He did his level best to rebuild his skills with his diminished capacity, and to compensate with soldier tactical skills he'd previously held less important, taking the harder road in the service of what he thought was right (granting that Jamie's notions of what's right aren't the greatest.)

Should we expect less from the Hound? The only way your notion that the Hound has 'found peace' on the Isle and will never leave it works is if you assume it is the kind of selfish peace that will indifferently ignore any outside call or need because it would disturb his pleasant tranquillity. Think what's going to happen to Westeros soon - the dead will rise, the living will rise to fight them AND whatever selfish leaders who will greedily and shortsightedly try to use the crisis to their advantage. The world will need men who are good at fighting, because if the NK wins there will be no need for gravediggers. And a limp wouldn't obliterate all his skills. If the Elder Brother really did make him a better man instead of merely a selfishly indifferent one, he WOULD answer that call. And if the call includes helping the girl he was taken with AND definitively kick his loathed brother's ass for good and all, so much the better. People can learn to be good people, but they can't obliterate their past selves completely.

More, I think GRRM was definitely telling us exactly that in the Quiet Isle scene. Proof? He shows us Stranger, the Hound's war horse. The Elder remarks that the stallion broke a monk's leg with a kick when they tried to hitch him to a plow. He also mentions that he thinks the name 'Stranger' is blasphemous. If both the Elder and the Hound believe that the Hound's conversion to the simple monk's life is permanent, why haven't they gelded Stranger, renamed him Abel, and broken him to the plow instead of leaving him idly eating expensive oats? IMO, it's a sign that the Hound's current state is temporary. He will eventually ride off to battle again.

As for UnGregor being a mindless golem without his head and therefore not really Gregor at all - I don't think we can say for sure that Dead Gregor was really beheaded (Doran only got an unrecognizable picked skull as proof) or that Book FrankenGregor has nothing of the personality or memory of Gregor (we've been shown nothing of his inner life in the books.)

Lastly, why are you so sure the Mad Mouse's purpose is merely to reveal Sansa's identity? What profit is there for him in that? Whereas abducting Sansa and bringing her to Cersei (who has placed a hefty price on Sansa's head) is potentially VERY profitable.

Jaime isn't training his swordsmanship skills to be useful. He's just trying to regain what he's lost. That's why he keeps dreaming having two hands in his dreams. It's an inability to move on in this aspect.

And yes, we should expect less from the Hound or rather more. He's done with violence. He's at peace now. That's pretty much the best ending that GRRM could give the Hound although there are ways to bring the Hound back into the narrative but bringing him back in as a fighter is just regressing the character.

Doran got a massive skull that could only be Gregor's head. Bran Stark even sees UnGregor in a vision and its noted that there's nothing inside the helm.

"Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

On the Mad Mouse, I'm talking narrative purpose not his intentions. The Mad Mouse is going to try to abduct Sansa but he's going to fail and this will lead to a premature reveal of Sansa's identity in the Vale.

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Why bring him back anyway if he was meant to be done?

He's obviously the Gravedigger so it isn't only a show fan favorite thing. I don't see what use the Hound could have but as a fighter. Jaime can fight without a hand, Sandor can fight with a limp and take his fair share of dumb cunts.

I wasn't sure. I didn't remember reading she died, but I wasn't sure it wasn't written somewhere she did, and I'm wary of wishful thinking when it comes to my favorite. I do hope this storyline is going somewhere, preferably to redemption and twu luv and I would cheer with pom-poms no matter how Disney it gets. Ready to get my shipper heart crushed in the process, of course.

I don't think the fickle Northern Lords will matter in the end, since I believe that most of them and their Houses will be wiped out -and the survivors will know better than question the Starks and Stargaryens again, imo. I don't think that Sansa/Tyrion would be a love match and certainly not at first, I rather thought of a Catelyn/Ned except on the long run. The Tyrion crush on Dany, I agree, is a big question mark. I really don't know where they're going with it. I imagine he could be Eowyn to Sansa's Faramir as far as tropes go.

It's just a hint that the Hound is alive. Jaime can't fight without a hand. That's what all his practice with Ilyn is proving.

GRRM even had to tell D & D that Jaime can't fight well at all without a hand.

The fact that the Hound doesn't have much use besides as a fighter and that bringing him back that way would regress his character is a pretty good argument not to bring him back.

Also there's no chance that GRRM is going to hook Tyrion up with Sansa considering that Tyrion is a rapist and a Lannister. I mean I guess there's a chance but it would be a really damn grim for the series.

Like imagine the Lannisters ending the series with them gaining Winterfell and Tywin's scheme working. Like damn.

screamin · February 27, 2018

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Jaime isn't training his swordsmanship skills to be useful. He's just trying to regain what he's lost. That's why he keeps dreaming having two hands in his dreams. It's an inability to move on in this aspect.

Begging your pardon, but the undeniable fact that he IS trying to regain what he lost does not logically exclude the fact that he could ALSO be trying to be useful. By taking the role of commander of the pacifying forces, he actually DID make himself useful as a general by using his strategic savvy to get Riverrun to stand down without a bloodbath. And even if a general usually commands from the rear, he must be at least somewhat ready to defend himself in case an enemy advance breaks through. While I'm sure he's under no illusions that he can regain even a quarter of the mastery he had before he lost his hand, I don't think it's so VERY farfetched that he can get good enough to be of some service in the battles to come. I mean, even missing a hand he's still better off than Tyrion, and even Tyrion rendered some useful military service by riding at the head of an attack in battle - and he had a lot less to work with physically than Jaime does, even now - and Jaime has more potential to improve with his left arm than Tyrion with his whole body.

Quote

And yes, we should expect less from the Hound or rather more. He's done with violence. He's at peace now. That's pretty much the best ending that GRRM could give the Hound although there are ways to bring the Hound back into the narrative but bringing him back in as a fighter is just regressing the character.

Sorry, I just can't see how the Hound willfully and permanently rejecting the crying needs of the world to enjoy the simple life is PROGRESS for the character.

And if you believe that his story is over, how do YOU explain the fact that the Elder is feeding the Hound's expensive war-horse and keeping it idle instead of gelding it and breaking it to work or selling it? (BTW, that should have been picked up by the people searching for the Hound; one of them should have offered to buy Stranger just to see what the Elder would say). And keeping and feeding an expensive and ornery stallion trained only for war intact and idle (in a time of famine, yet) doesn't look to me like an indication that his owner has decided to settle down and never go into battle again. To me, that's like seeing someone's motorcycle with the motor running outside his house and saying you're certain he's going to walk on foot forever after.

Quote

Doran got a massive skull that could only be Gregor's head.

No, Doran got a massive skull, period, full stop. There are many conditions that could cause an enlarged skull - hydrocephalus, acromegaly - and Qyburn has the curiosity and learning to know of them and the lack of scruples to open a tomb or arrest some unfortunate poor denizen of King's Landing with the right specifications to donate a plausible skull. If you think about it, why did Qyburn go to the trouble of taking off all the flesh of the skull, instead of just dipping it in tar as seems to be the general custom? Maybe it was because if the flesh were preserved someone might recognize that the face wasn't Gregor's. As for Bran's vision of a giant in armor made of stone (the Mountain, I agree) whose helmet when opened showed there was "nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood" - yes, it could literally mean that FrankenGregor has no head. But we don't take the 'armor made of stone' to literally mean he's dressed in granite, so maybe the 'nothing but darkness and thick black blood' thing is also a metaphor. Thick black blood is clotted, dead, poisoned in Gregor's case, perhaps hinting at his undead state. The darkness could mean the evil that animates him, the fact that there is nothing to be seen in the helmet but those two things may mean that the helmet is intended to conceal his true identity - under the false name Robert Strong.

Besides, to me it just makes more sense that Qyburn was talented enough in dark arts to reanimate a corpse and spell its obedience - but to assume he can make an obedient warrior that can fight and take orders without ears to hear the orders, eyes to see its opponent, and a brain to store its fighting skills? (As Bronn pointed out, even a giant needs SOME fighting skills to prevail). It seems a bit much to expect of him. Also, a mere mindless golem seems to me a much less compelling idea than to imagine Undead Gregor imprisoned under an obedience geas, but secretly resenting his inability to go off and do his usual sadistic hobbies in his free time, maybe looking forward to the advent of the True King of the Undead, who will free him to take revenge on those who made him such a tool.

Oh, and wait, here's more of Bran's vision:

Quote

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Sure looks to me like both the Hound and Jaime have significant parts to play in that vision, hmm? Maybe their story as warriors isn't as finished as you think.

Edited February 27, 2018 by screamin

SimoneS · February 27, 2018

I don't think that the Hound's return has anything do with Sansa. Rather the show needed to add up body count in the wars, hence the Hound and the Brothers return. Plus, since D&D don't have Martin's ending for the Hound, they can have him fight his brother to the death giving us an entertaining fight scene.

It is difficult to see what exactly are the things lying battlefield. It might not be people, it could be horses. I still don't understand the rationale of Cersei attacking Winterfell so I still think that it is NK attacking and destroying Winterfell. And any scenes with Dany will be her on Drogon and the NK on Viserion which is pure green screen fighting.

Edited February 27, 2018 by SimoneS

Eyes High · February 27, 2018

19 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't think the fickle Northern Lords will matter in the end, since I believe that most of them and their Houses will be wiped out -and the survivors will know better than question the Starks and Stargaryens again, imo. I don't think that Sansa/Tyrion would be a love match and certainly not at first, I rather thought of a Catelyn/Ned except on the long run.

One thing that is clear in S7 is that Sansa is paranoid about the security of her position and is keenly aware of her previous marriages being a black mark against her. I suppose that mentality could change once Shit Gets Real in the North and everyone is begging the Starks for protection, though.

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

That would totally disrupt the story that's been building between her and Littlefinger, and it would pretty swiftly lead to her getting her head chopped off.

There are several possible clues in ASOIAF that Sansa getting her head chopped off on Cersei's orders is where her storyline is going to end.

16 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Also there's no chance that GRRM is going to hook Tyrion up with Sansa

That's kind of a curious thing to say, since Tyrion and Sansa are still very much married in the books. GRRM already "hooked them up."

Quote

considering that Tyrion is a rapist and a Lannister. I mean I guess there's a chance but it would be a really damn grim for the series.

Grim for Sansa, sure, but consider this. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. Sansa isn't even his favourite or second-favourite female character. If GRRM's going to give Tyrion a happy ending at Sansa's expense, I don't think he'll lose any sleep over it.

I will say that while Sansa dying is her most likely endgame in my opinion, GRRM left just enough wiggle room in the books that Tyrion and Sansa ending up together wouldn't be the most shocking thing ever (although certainly more surprising than endgame SanSan would be).

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't think that the Hound's return has anything do with Sansa.

Certainly the way D&D have been writing the Hound since his return suggests that it has nothing to do with Sansa.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Eyes High

screamin · February 27, 2018

Come to think of it, it occurs to me that in the books the Mad Mouse might face a lot of serious obstacles in making plans to abduct Sansa alive. After all, the Vale is under LF's rule, she's ostensibly his daughter, and transporting a live unwilling girl out of the territory without being caught would be logistically very difficult, if not impossible. Transporting her head alone (say, pickled in a small keg for preservation) might seem to him a great deal easier while managing his escape. After all, Cersei was willing to accept Tyrion's head in return for a reward, why not Sansa's?

But since it seems to me that GRRM is writing Sansa's complex but ultimately triumphant education in seizing political from LF, her death in that fashion would turn her whole plot into a ridiculous shaggy-dog story.

Edith · February 27, 2018

BTW friki is confirming, if someone had a doubt, that Cersei will no longer be queen when KL is attacked by dragonfire. He also is saying that dragon fire will destroy the whole set, even the houses, so the damage will not be limited to the walls or the RK.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Edith

Eyes High · February 27, 2018

2 hours ago, screamin said:

But since it seems to me that GRRM is writing Sansa's complex but ultimately triumphant education in seizing political from LF, her death in that fashion would turn her whole plot into a ridiculous shaggy-dog story.

Outline Sansa was supposed to die at the hands of Outline Jaime (who seems to have occupied the same role as ASOIAF Cersei). If ASOIAF Sansa dies, I expect it will be at Cersei's hands.

57 minutes ago, Edith said:

BTW friki is confirming, if someone had a doubt, that Cersei will no longer be queen when KL is attacked by dragonfire. He also is saying that dragon fire will destroy the whole set, even the houses, so the damage will not be limited to the walls or the RK.

Interesting.

Twitter account GoTlikeLocation tweeted photos of GOT ship sets, saying "There are plenty of ship sets, so we are likely to see lots of scenes on water."

Edited February 27, 2018 by Eyes High

Edith · February 27, 2018

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Outline Sansa was supposed to die at the hands of Outline Jaime (who seems to have occupied the same role as ASOIAF Cersei). If ASOIAF Sansa dies, I expect it will be at Cersei's hands.

I have a question about the outline. Outline Jaime killed everyone on his way to the throne and that would include Sansa because she was married to king Joffrey and had her child, right? If Cersei took outline Jaime storyline, didn't she already killed everybody to get the throne, including the woman who married her child, at least in the show and probably in the book?

Quote

Twitter account GoTlikeLocation tweeted photos of GOT ship sets, saying "There are plenty of ship sets, so we are likely to see lots of scenes on water."

Greyjoy trama? Team Dany arriving at white harbor? Euron arriving with the GC?

Eyes High · February 27, 2018

28 minutes ago, Edith said:

I have a question about the outline. Outline Jaime killed everyone on his way to the throne and that would include Sansa because she was married to king Joffrey and had her child, right?

Technically it wouldn't include Sansa, no, but in that same paragraph of the outline, GRRM says that Outline Tyrion goes into exile and "makes common cause" with the "surviving Starks" to bring down Outline Jaime. Since that same paragraph says nothing about Sansa leaving KL or escaping along with Tyrion, the obvious inference is that Sansa isn't one of the "surviving Starks."

I also find it highly unlikely that an Outline Jaime who was sufficiently ruthless to off anyone who could possibly pose a threat to his claim was insufficiently ruthless to kill a woman who might very well be pregnant with Joffrey's heir. The Jeyne Westerling subplot in the books--where she was given an abortifacient without her knowledge to ensure that she wouldn't conceive an heir off Robb--suggests that GRRM is very alive to these sorts of considerations.

The fact that the outline reassures the reader that even though GRRM wishes to create the impression that any character can die at any time that five characters will live through all (as then planned) three volumes, and that that list of five characters includes three Stark kids but not Sansa, is also a strong indicator that GRRM planned to kill her off, in my opinion.

GRRM also describes his story as a sort of coming of age tale for those five characters, which makes Sansa's omission from that list all the more ominous, since she would also be a young character to whom that descriptor might apply. Sansa can't come of age if she's dead, though.

Lastly, we know from the outline that Outline Tyrion befriends both Sansa and Arya but once exiled falls madly in love with Arya. If Sansa was always intended to be the more beautiful sister, and if Tyrion was always intended to be the shallow fellow he is in ASOIAF, then Tyrion falling in love with Arya instead of Sansa would make no sense...unless of course, Outline Sansa is already dead by the time Outline Tyrion ends up in exile.

Quote

If Cersei took outline Jaime storyline, didn't she already killed everybody to get the throne, including the woman who married her child, at least in the show and probably in the book?

Sure, but while Outline Jaime's reason for offing Sansa--she's an impediment to his rule--and ASOIAF Cersei's reason for offing Sansa--revenge for Joffrey--are different, they still lead to the same potential result: Sansa dying at the hands of a villainous Lannister monarch. Furthermore, even assuming GRRM changed his mind about the manner of Sansa's death, as anyone who's read the outline will tell you, every character who died in the outline--Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Drogo, Viserys, Joffrey, etc.--still died in ASOIAF, even if the circumstances of their deaths differed. So if Outline Sansa died, then it's a very strong indication that ASOIAF Sansa will die as well.

TLDR? Sansa's doomed in all likelihood.

...I also happen to think that the way Sansa's arc has been treated in the show is another strong indication that she's going to die in S8, but that's another matter altogether.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Eyes High

Edith · February 27, 2018

15 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but while Outline Jaime's reason for offing Sansa--she's an impediment to his rule--and ASOIAF Cersei's reason for offing Sansa--revenge for Joffrey--are different, they still lead to the same potential result: Sansa dying at the hands of a villainous Lannister monarch. Furthermore, even assuming GRRM changed his mind about the manner of Sansa's death, as anyone who's read the outline will tell you, every character who died in the outline--Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Drogo, Viserys, Joffrey, etc.--still died in ASOIAF, even if the circumstances of their deaths differed. So if Outline Sansa died, then it's a very strong indication that ASOIAF Sansa will die as well.

Ok ok now I get it! Thanks!

Also I remember there was a part that was hidden, right? Did anyone figure it out what was that about? and I think I read something about Jon vs Bran because Jon refused to help him or something like that, right?

Edit. FAKE!!

Edited February 28, 2018 by Edith

GraceK · February 27, 2018

2 hours ago, Edith said:

BTW friki is confirming, if someone had a doubt, that Cersei will no longer be queen when KL is attacked by dragonfire. He also is saying that dragon fire will destroy the whole set, even the houses, so the damage will not be limited to the walls or the RK.

My money is on Euron. He’s a treacherous bastard, I never believed he had honest designs on Cersei. It would not surprise me If he betrays Cersei and takes KL. He’s just as much of a liar that Cersei is.

22 minutes ago, Edith said:

Ok ok now I get it! Thanks!

Also I remember there was a part that was hidden, right? Did anyone figure it out what was that about? and I think I read something about Jon vs Bran because bran was upset because Jon refused to help him or something like that, right?

First "official" poster for season 8

https://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-poster-2019/

I wish they had a release date!!’

Should it mean something that they Greyjoy sigil isn’t represented? Maybe I’m wrong about Euron

Edited February 27, 2018 by GraceK

WindyNights · February 28, 2018

6 hours ago, Edith said:

BTW friki is confirming, if someone had a doubt, that Cersei will no longer be queen when KL is attacked by dragonfire. He also is saying that dragon fire will destroy the whole set, even the houses, so the damage will not be limited to the walls or the RK.

Link?

Eyes High · February 28, 2018

4 hours ago, Edith said:

Ok ok now I get it! Thanks! Also I remember there was a part that was hidden, right? Did anyone figure it out what was that about?

The last attempt at translating the redacted text:

"By the end of A Game of Thrones (...) to the Iron Throne with (...) premature death, Bran sits free. Yet his seat is hardly a comfortable one. In the north, Jon Snow is his bitter enemy. Beyond the Narrow Sea, Daenerys Stormborn prepares her invasion. And on the far side of the Wall, the others are watching with cold dead eyes and gathering their strength."

Not too shabby for a bunch of Reddit amateurs with too much time on their hands, heh.

Quote

and I think I read something about Jon vs Bran because Jon refused to help him or something like that, right?

Yes, there was going to be an estrangement between Outline Jon and Outline Bran when Bran, Arya and Catelyn fled north and Jon refused to help them.

Quote

First "official" poster for season 8

Getting an Olympics vibe from the gold, silver and bronze house sigils. Deliberate?

Edited February 28, 2018 by Eyes High

GraceK · February 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The last attempt at translating the redacted text:

"By the end of A Game of Thrones (...) to the Iron Throne with (...) premature death, Bran sits free. Yet his seat is hardly a comfortable one. In the north, Jon Snow is his bitter enemy. Beyond the Narrow Sea, Daenerys Stormborn prepares her invasion. And on the far side of the Wall, the others are watching with cold dead eyes and gathering their strength."

Not too shabby for a bunch of Reddit amateurs with too much time on their hands, heh.

Yes, there was going to be an estrangement between Outline Jon and Outline Bran when Bran, Arya and Catelyn fled north and Jon refused to help them.

Getting an Olympics vibe from the gold, silver and bronze house sigils. Deliberate?

This may be an unpopular opinion but from what I have read about his original outline, im glad he changed it. Jaime murdering everyone?? Jon and Arya in love??? Bran enemies with Jon? It’s horrible Sorry not sorry. I think he must have realized on some level how gross it was and that’s why he changed it.

anyway if Frikidoctor is correct and Cersei is not on the throne when KL is attacked, then possibilities are fascinating

anamika · February 28, 2018

33 minutes ago, GraceK said:

anyway if Frikidoctor is correct and Cersei is not on the throne when KL is attacked, then possibilities are fascinating

There is some speculation that it is Euron as king on the IT with Cersei as his queen. We do have Aeron's forced visions where he sees Euron on the Iron Throne and then there is this:

Quote

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the long-ships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed.

Now, this woman can be Cersei or Dany. Wildfire is described as green, so not sure what the pale white fire is supposed to be.

It's possible that Euron sits on the IT at some point in the books. GRRM has said that there will several contenders sitting on the throne before the series ends. It's possible the show could try to shoehorn Euron on the throne. Though, if the final human nemesis for the good guys is going to be Euron, that's disappointing.

7 hours ago, Edith said:

First "official" poster for season 8

https://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-poster-2019/

Nice. I like that the Targ sigil is in the middle. Targaryen restoration hype!

Edited February 28, 2018 by anamika

GraceK · February 28, 2018

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

There is some speculation that it is Euron as king on the IT with Cersei as his queen. We do have Aeron's forced visions where he sees Euron on the Iron Throne and then there is this:

Now, this woman can be Cersei or Dany. Wildfire is described as green, so not sure what the pale white fire is supposed to be.

It's possible that Euron sits on the IT at some point in the books. GRRM has said that there will several contenders sitting on the throne before the series ends. It's possible the show could try to shoehorn Euron on the throne. Though, if the final human nemesis for the good guys is going to be Euron, that's disappointing.

Nice. I like that the Targ sigil is in the middle. Targaryen restoration hype!

Makes sense to me to be honest. Could explain why Cersei looks so miserable in those photos of her on set. Her expression is not one of smug delight or victory. She looks pretty unhappy.

Edited February 28, 2018 by GraceK

Edith · February 28, 2018

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Link?

At the very end of the video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RQjk_DjT6pQ

Jaime is part of the Winterfell battle!

Edith · February 28, 2018

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Nice. I like that the Targ sigil is in the middle. Targaryen restoration hype!

anamika · February 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Right, it's not supposed to be the 'official' GOT promo poster. According to Collider:

Quote

Over the past few years, we’ve posted a number of cool promo posters for some of the biggest upcoming movies and television shows. While we’re still a long way away from this year’s expo, a friend of mine in the industry sent me over something he thought we’d all like to see: a Game of Thrones final season promo poster for people in the licensing industry.

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-final-season-poster/

According to them it's for the licensing expo.

And I don't think Nikolaj is 'taunting the Starks'. He's filming the moon. The Starks are wolves. They are supposed to be howling during a full moon! Bran will take care of him once he gets there :D

Anyways, looks like Kit, Maisie and Nicolaj are in Belfast right now.

No news on Gwen, Emilia, Peter, Sophie etc.

Edited February 28, 2018 by anamika

Eyes High · February 28, 2018

46 minutes ago, anamika said:

No news on Gwen, Emilia, Peter, Sophie etc.

Daniel Zovatto said in a recent interview that he'd be filming a movie with Sophie in March (Heavy).

SeanC · February 28, 2018

On 2/27/2018 at 4:41 PM, Edith said:

BTW friki is confirming, if someone had a doubt, that Cersei will no longer be queen when KL is attacked by dragonfire. He also is saying that dragon fire will destroy the whole set, even the houses, so the damage will not be limited to the walls or the RK.

If I recall correctly, wasn't Friki's information derived knowing somebody with access to the finished episodes? I wasn't aware he had that kind of BTS source.

Edith · March 1, 2018

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

If I recall correctly, wasn't Friki's information derived knowing somebody with access to the finished episodes? I wasn't aware he had that kind of BTS source.

It was Javi from L7R who gave away that spoiler in friki's last video. Friki asked Javi if he knew something that any site hasn't shared yet, and he said that people should asked who is sitting in the throne when the dragonfire attack happens.

In his last episode, friki confirm that Cersei will not be sitting in the throne when the attack happens. The other part is his speculation base, I think, in some information someone gave him...

Edited March 1, 2018 by Edith

Eyes High · March 1, 2018

1 hour ago, Edith said:

It was Javi from L7R who gave away that spoiler in friki's last video. Friki asked Javi if he new something that any site hasn't shared yet, and he said that people should asked who is sitting in the throne when the dragonfire attack happens.

In his last episode, friki confirm that Cersei will not be sitting in the throne when the attack happens. The other part is his speculation base, I think, in some information someone gave him...

Yes, although I wonder how good Javi's sources could be for S8, given that there's been no Spain filming to date. Most of Javi's good dirt for previous seasons came from Spain filming.

One thing I've noticed is that not only do the characters' costumes change over the course of their arcs, but their hairstyles often change as well. Cersei and Sansa are the most obvious examples, but there's also Jon gradually growing out his hair and adopting the manbun. Judging from the cast sightings, as well as set filming, we're getting some hair spoilers for S8 (and yes, I realize this is scraping the bottom of the spoiler barrel, but desperate times, etc. etc.):

Jon: Ditches the manbun

Cersei: Slightly longer wig

Jaime: Beard! Looks great on NCW

Tyrion: Longer hair, Peter Dinklage shaved patches into his beard so that it's pretty much a goatee plus a neckbeard (kind of weird looking, unless it's for a prosthetic as some have speculated)

Arya: Slightly longer hair (Maisie's been gradually growing out her hair since she chopped it off many seasons ago)

Sansa: Sophie's using the wig again for S8, so I assume it will be more of the same

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