Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search

Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High

By Eyes High
in Game Of Thrones

Meredith Quill
Message added by Meredith Quill

Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

  • Start Topic

Recommended Posts

GrailKing

GrailKing

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:
4 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa says that only a fool would trust LF and then proceeds to trust him so far as to nearly kill her own sister.

Does she talk to him? Yes. Does she trust him? We don't know.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Needs her all seeing omniscient brother to take down LF.

Needs him to find info and details of his crimes.

I think it's quite clear Sansa doesn't trust LF; Show wise we get her questioning trusting him on the boat,point blank telling him she doesn't trust him, but knows what he wants, we have Molestown, Winterfell Gods wood, words to Jon, and her whole body language in that final game lesson. In book it's earlier, at the hand's tourney; His smile doesn't reach his eyes, and LF is undressing me with his eyes. His kissing her in the Eyrie, his can you be my daughter Alayne in heart and mind and we have Sansa's thoughts on it " But I'm not your daughter; I'm Sansa Stark eldest daughter of Lord Eddard and the Lady Catelyn, the blood of Winterfell" and also " but that's not what LF wants to hear; lies and Arbor Gold is what he wants... but who else would I be, father "

She had enough to take him down with Lysa but she have to come clean ( which she most likely did off screen ) with Royce. Sansa didn't know three things, everything else she witnessed or he set her up with those situation; what she did not know: LF and Ned in the Throne room and his bargain, LF and Cat in the bordello dagger scene and finally LF and Tywin in Harrenhal. Once she takes the dagger to Bran and they and Arya talk it out and she has all that missing info, she sets the trap and he hangs himself with that little game speech.

  • Love 4
Link to comment
  • Replies 14.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Meredith Quill
Meredith Quill

Enjoy: I laughed. 🤣

spaceghostess
spaceghostess

^This.^ Thank you.  Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Y

dragonsbite
dragonsbite

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

Posted Images

WindyNights

WindyNights

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Or you have a bunch of very traumatized characters with more issues than the Time magazine.

I doubt the NK woke and moved his undead army after 8000 years only to wait another 8000 years in front of the Wall.

Besides all the Tyrion family issues he is not a military man. That's it.

Redemption sometimes is a struggle. Also Mad King's daughter is coming. And Jaime knows that.

It's not the first time Cersei underestimate danger.

Does she talk to him? Yes. Does she trust him? We don't know.

Needs him to find info and details of his crimes.

He gambled, he lost. That's it.

Arya's big issues are still there. Some of them bigger than before. LF just used them.

Bran is barely there. He is lost in his own world and struggling with all that. I hope we get him back.

 

In brief, every single thing mentioned make narrative sense. And we can find the reasons on screen

Show Jon Snow is actually pretty stupid. Even Kit Harrington acknowledges that Jon doesn't think or plan, he just acts on instinct.

Tyrion's pretty stupid for trusting Cersei though and that's what makes season 7's ending pretty frustrating. 

Sansa's stupidity is more plot-based. She has to do stupid things like marry Ramsay for the plot to work or not tell Jon about a possible Vale army for the Battle of the Bastards to work.

  • Love 3
Link to comment
OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

(edited)
30 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

He doesn't really need to do that. Betroth Sansa to Robert Arryn and march the Vale army to Winterfell for her birthright. Simple.

The Boltons can't take a two front assault from Stannis + the Vale.

Ultimately, Cersei didn't offer Littlefinger anything to march North. All she did was give him permission to go do it. It's an unnecessary step.

That's not even getting into how Ramsay flayed a prominent northern family while LF was on the way to Winterfell. 

 

Who say Robert want to marry Sansa? Who say Sansa want to marry Robert? With Ramsay is a different issue. She does not know him and she is counting on that marriage ending more or less soon.

About the Bolton troops. Look at the map. LF needs their permission to be able to betray them in time.

About Cersei. Look at the map again. He needs also her permission. It's a long way to Winterfell.

About the northern family, he was already in the way to Winterfell to meet Roose and it seems like he already made a deal with him.

Edited by OhOkayWhat
  • Love 1
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

(edited)

When people say that Jon was stupid when he wanted to save his brother or that Tyrion is stupid because he doesn't want his sister do die, I wonder do they have brothers and sisters?

How is it possible to have such black and white  perspective? It's not simple. It's human heart in conflict with itself. Life is not something where you are making cold and calculating decisions all the time, like you are playing a game.

Edited by nikma
Link to comment
OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

(edited)
40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Even Kit Harrington acknowledges...

Once again, interviews are not scripts.

40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Tyrion's pretty stupid for trusting Cersei though...

Tyrion trusts Cersei wants to survive. Later he finds she is pregnant, and that's a new reason too.

 

40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

She has to do stupid things like marry Ramsay for the plot to work

Marry and to destroy the family of her husband. She have seen that before. She also knows who killed Joffrey and how LF plots.

40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

not tell Jon about a possible Vale army for the Battle of the Bastards to work.

Very traumatized girl with trust issues, girl that also is 100% sure Ramsay will trick Jon, whatever he does. It does not matter if she is right, it matters she thinks she is.

Again, every single thing mentioned, makes narrative sense.

Edited by OhOkayWhat
  • Love 2
Link to comment
WindyNights

WindyNights

3 hours ago, nikma said:

When people say that Jon was stupid when he wanted to save his brother or that Tyrion is stupid because he doesn't want his sister do die, I wonder do they have brothers and sisters?

How is it possible to have such black and white  perspective? It's not simple. It's human heart in conflict with itself. Life is not something where you are making cold and calculating decisions all the time, like you are playing a game.

Cersei is a terribly abusive person that's tried to kill Tyrion before. But the stupid part isn't that he doesn't want her to die but that he trusts her to do the right thing.

Jon isn't stupid for wanting to save his brother. He's stupid for his inability to compromise on his sense of right and putting his emotions and morals before the overall goal. Like what he pulled at the end of season 7 at the Dragonpit kinda tells me that Jon would be an awful king.

 

This sums up Jon Snow:

LF:"It's not murder I find amusing, Lord Stark, it's you. You rule like a man dancing on rotten ice. I daresay you will make a noble splash. I believe I heard the first crack this morning."

 

-----

 

LF: "You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move.

 

------

Machiavelli: 

Many writers have dreamed up republics and kingdoms that bear no resemblance to experience and never existed in reality; there is such a gap between how people actually live and how they ought to live that anyone who declines to behave as people do, in order to behave as they should, is schooling himself for catastrophe and had better forget personal security: if you always want to play the good man in a world where most people are not good, you'll end up badly. Hence, if a ruler wants to survive, he'll have to learn to stop being good, at least when the occasion demands. (15.1)

What you have to understand is that a ruler, especially a ruler new to power, can't always behave in ways that would make people think a man good, because to stay in power he's frequently obliged to act against loyalty, against charity, against humanity and against religion. What matters is that he has the sort of character that can change tack as luck and circumstances demand, and, as I've already said, stick to the good if he can but know how to be bad when the occasion demands. (18.5)

  • Love 1
Link to comment
bubble sparkly

bubble sparkly

7 hours ago, anamika said:

I admit that David and Dan have a tough job considering the writer of the series itself has stopped writing because of plot complexities. I just think D&D can do better with a little bit more effort

I agree.  I think D&D and GRRM are both flawed in different ways.  GRRM introduces way too many characters and is too lazy to finish the series, probably partly because he let it grow out of control and can't work out how to actually get the characters to their endgame (D&D's solution to blow everyone up in the sept was a good one!). D&D have a tendency to rush thins and favour plot over charcters.

The WInterfell plot in s7 was absolutely terrible, and the annoying thing is D&D had all the pieces there to make it so much better but IMO went about things in the stupidest way possible.  They set things up pretty well in the first 2 episodes, showing that Jon and Sansa had completely different ideas about ruling and that Jon had no desire to take suggestions from Sansa.  But it was ruined with that ludicrous letter plot with Arya, Sansa and LF (which Sansa should not have been worried about if she was actually a master player- a quick meting with the Lords where she sobs and talks about how she was trying to save Ned and Joffrey/Cersei tortured her etc. would have gotten her sympathy in 2 seconds flat), Arya being an incompetent spy and their unwillingness to have Sansa be overtly conflicted about LF's idea for her to be Queen.

Arya should have used one of her faces to follow LF without his knowledge, and she should have observed him badmouthing Jon and trying to gain support with the Vale and Glover etc. for Sansa to overthrow Jon.  I think they should have also been way more overt and shown Sansa be truly tempted to go along wth LF's plan to get the Lords to name her Queen.  LF should have also done a bit more to try and convince Sansa by talking about how Jon doesn't listen to her and how Cat would be horrified that he was stealing Sansa's birthright etc., and they should have had Sansa examine her childhood prejudices about Jon being "less than" because he was a bastard.

The Arya/Sansa confrontation was also pretty stupid and they tried to go for a weird horror movie vibe.  Plus, after all the jabbering between them Sansa never answered any of Arya's questions so it was pointless.  I also hated the "gotcha" fake out with LF's death scene and would have much preferred that we actually see Sansa and Arya come together, bond a little bit, and decide they need to kill LF for their family etc.

  • Love 6
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

(edited)
1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

But the stupid part isn't that he doesn't want her to die but that he trusts her to do the right thing.

He trusts that she wants to survive,especially since she is pregnant. And it's a very typical for all chacatres in the show to underestimate how delusional Cersei is. Even Jaime was shocked. 

 

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

He's stupid for his inability to compromise on his sense of right and putting his emotions and morals before the overall goal. 

It's not stupid to refuse to make an alliance on false facts that could later create many problems, since it is very important that alliance survives. It's not only about that meeting, it's about actually fighting together. 

Edited by nikma
  • Love 2
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

10 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

LF should have also done a bit more to try and convince Sansa by talking about how Jon doesn't listen to her and how Cat would be horrified that he was stealing Sansa's birthright etc.,

No. This wouldn't work. LF was smart not to openly say anything against Jon, Arya or Bran

  • Love 1
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

(edited)
1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

she should have observed him badmouthing Jon and trying to gain support with the Vale and Glover etc. for Sansa to overthrow Jon

I don't know where you get this idea that LF was badmouthing Jon. He approached Glover and Royce after the meeting where they criticised Jon and praised Sansa. Maybe he just told them that he agrees that Sansa is doing a good job. 

 

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

and they should have had Sansa examine her childhood prejudices about Jon being "less than" because he was a bastard.

Why? So we could have another anti_sansa circlejerk? She apologised to him in S6. Do we really need her to apologise to poor little Jon every season? 

 

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

which Sansa should not have been worried about if she was actually a master player- a quick meting with the Lords where she sobs and talks about how she was trying to save Ned and Joffrey/Cersei tortured her etc. would have gotten her sympathy

 Sansa is not worried that they won't trust her, she is worried that they won't care, they will just use that as an excuse to turn their backs again. 

Edited by nikma
  • Love 2
Link to comment
anamika

anamika

(edited)
7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Show Jon Snow is actually pretty stupid. Even Kit Harrington acknowledges that Jon doesn't think or plan, he just acts on instinct.

Tyrion's pretty stupid for trusting Cersei though and that's what makes season 7's ending pretty frustrating. 

Sansa's stupidity is more plot-based. She has to do stupid things like marry Ramsay for the plot to work or not tell Jon about a possible Vale army for the Battle of the Bastards to work.

Every character's stupidity on the show is plot based. Jon acted impulsively in the BOTB because he had to fuck up and lose so that clever Sansa who warned Jon about Ramsay can save everyone at the last minute with the Vale army. Jon had to go on a wight hunt -  because wight polar bears and adventure beyond the wall. In actuality, no one should want a blundering, impulsive leader like Jon - but Jon's characterization is not of someone who gets hundreds of his men killed impulsively. That's just the plot that makes him do it. Hence why it's not acknowledged by anyone on the show. It's the same as no one confronting Sansa about hiding information about the Vale army and getting hundreds of Northerners killed - it's plot and not supposed to be reflective of her characterization.

Tyrion acted stupidly because Cersei has to stay for two more seasons.

Arya was an idiot last season because of the WF plot.

Cersei will stay on till the last episode next season as all her wacky, stupid plans succeed because plot - and our heroes will look like idiots for thinking that a Lannister army cannot attack them at WF. Like Euron's fleet that magically appeared everywhere at the same time taking out Dany's ships or the Tyrells being wiped out and Cersei getting all that gold.

Everything on the show is plot driven. No character on the show does something because it's in their character to do something - they do things because the plot requires them to do it. 

The only thing that D&D have been consistent about with respect to Jon is his honesty. In Kit's recent interview he said:

Quote

“I think they’ve all got their moral compass. They all have something that drives them. For Jon – it’s truth, honesty and nobility.” - Kit Harington.

But again, the show seems to have this edgy nihilism 101 moral dichotomy whereby evil must always win because good is dumb and stupid and will always lose - ex: Jon and Ramsay in the BOTB.   It's in complete contrast to GRRM's take on things in the books were the good guys also win because they are GOOD and honest and smart and the bad guys can lose because they are evil and stupid. The Boltons are losing currently in the books not because of LF and his deus ex machina Vale army. They are losing because of who Ned was as a person, because of what Ramsay is doing to fake Arya, because of the Red Wedding and because of Roose making mistakes and underestimating things.

We should actually be thinking that Jon was right in the Dragonpit when he stuck by his words because it's important to honor treaties, deals, guest rights etc. in Westeros. But the show has driven it in so much that good = dumb and evil = smart that Jon is immediately seen as unworthy of leadership because he did the right thing.

Edited by anamika
  • Love 6
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

(edited)
23 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon acted impulsively in the BOTB because...

... it would be completely out of character to just watch his brother die and do nothing. I'm not sure even Cersei would just watch if Jaime was in Rickon's position. 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon had to go on a wight hunt -  because...

... he was always first to lead mission and it would be out of character that he would let anyone do his job for him. 

 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

the show seems to have this edgy nihilism 101 moral dichotomy whereby evil must always win because good is dumb and stupid and will always lose

To quote great Luke Skywalker - Amazing. Every word of what you just said.. was wrong. This is just your interpreation of the show, you are taking villains monologues too seriously. Just like The Last Jedi haters did when they thought "kill the past" is the theme of that movie, just because Kylo said it. 

 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

Tyrion acted stupidly because...

.. because his heart is in conflict with itself.

 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

Cersei will stay on till the last episode next season as all her wacky, stupid plans succeed because

Every plan that Cersei ever had failed. 

 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

our heroes will look like idiots for thinking that a Lannister army cannot attack them at WF.

They will look like people who know history. 

 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

We should actually be thinking that Jon was right

 

We should't think anything. D&D let the audience make their minds. They  said that the line that Jon said to Tyrion was their comment about Donald Trump. And we know what they think about Trump. It's not black and white. They even explicitly said that in E5 when they were speaking about a scene where Daenerys kills the Taryles.

 

Some people will think that Jon is stupid. Some won't. Who cares? Even some Holy ASOIAF book fans thought that Jon, Ned and Robb were stuid, long before Benioff and Weiss even knew that Iron Throne was. 

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

The Boltons are losing currently in the books not because of LF and his deus ex machina Vale army.

We should wait before we judge Bolton's downfall in the books. "Deus ex machina army" is something George Martin loves very much. 

Edited by nikma
  • Love 1
Link to comment
GrailKing

GrailKing

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I agree.  I think D&D and GRRM are both flawed in different ways.  GRRM introduces way too many characters and is too lazy to finish the series, probably partly because he let it grow out of control and can't work out how to actually get the characters to their endgame (D&D's solution to blow everyone up in the sept was a good one!). D&D have a tendency to rush thins and favour plot over charcters.

The WInterfell plot in s7 was absolutely terrible, and the annoying thing is D&D had all the pieces there to make it so much better but IMO went about things in the stupidest way possible.  They set things up pretty well in the first 2 episodes, showing that Jon and Sansa had completely different ideas about ruling and that Jon had no desire to take suggestions from Sansa.  But it was ruined with that ludicrous letter plot with Arya, Sansa and LF (which Sansa should not have been worried about if she was actually a master player- a quick meting with the Lords where she sobs and talks about how she was trying to save Ned and Joffrey/Cersei tortured her etc. would have gotten her sympathy in 2 seconds flat), Arya being an incompetent spy and their unwillingness to have Sansa be overtly conflicted about LF's idea for her to be Queen.

Arya should have used one of her faces to follow LF without his knowledge, and she should have observed him badmouthing Jon and trying to gain support with the Vale and Glover etc. for Sansa to overthrow Jon.  I think they should have also been way more overt and shown Sansa be truly tempted to go along wth LF's plan to get the Lords to name her Queen.  LF should have also done a bit more to try and convince Sansa by talking about how Jon doesn't listen to her and how Cat would be horrified that he was stealing Sansa's birthright etc., and they should have had Sansa examine her childhood prejudices about Jon being "less than" because he was a bastard.

The Arya/Sansa confrontation was also pretty stupid and they tried to go for a weird horror movie vibe.  Plus, after all the jabbering between them Sansa never answered any of Arya's questions so it was pointless.  I also hated the "gotcha" fake out with LF's death scene and would have much preferred that we actually see Sansa and Arya come together, bond a little bit, and decide they need to kill LF for their family etc.

I think the main flaw with the Sansa and Arya plot was they started it too late, and rushed it.

As you say they started it well in ep.1 & 2. All the crumbs were there for it to be a proper story line: Arya's final remembrance of Sansa in S 1, thoughts of her in 2-10, the mummers show episodes in S 6. Sans being conflicted came off better in the books, we can see in Sansa's head sometimes he's Petyr, sometimes LF, in show we have it some what the opposite WE see he's sometimes Littlefinger and sometimes Petyr, but Sansa sees only LF.

They could have had Sansa talking to Royce privately with just some facial expressions from him, something, to show she's scheming behind LF back etc. 

Arya did come off as a poor student of the FM group, she should come off as failing due to lack of experience, not being stupid.

Neither sisters are stupid.

I think they should had reversed the return of Bran and Arya  along with starting the girls sooner.

Link to comment
nikma

nikma

39 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I think the main flaw with the Sansa and Arya plot was they started it too late, and rushed it.

I think they just needed one big scene at the end to explain everything and it would be fine. 

Link to comment
Stella

Stella

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

 Like what he pulled at the end of season 7 at the Dragonpit kinda tells me that Jon would be an awful king.

 

This is why I believe in the political Jon theory. Jon is willing to do things that may make him seem like a "dolt" to some, but he's actually taking some big risks and showing he's calculated the odds and is doing literally anything to keep Dany on point for his mission. Not hers.  Jon knows Cersi can't be trusted and he doesn't really care about her. But Jon does care about keeping Dany with her huge army and dragons on his mission to defeat the NK and the WW. By the end of season 7 he got what he went to Dragonstone for and then some.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
onyxrose81

onyxrose81

(edited)

Nope, nope, nope.  I don't want to bring that Political Jon nonsense here.  There is absolutely nothing to suggest that is what's happening.  It's a disservice to his character and this is the one thing that makes me angry.   

Edited by onyxrose81
  • Love 12
Link to comment
GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
15 minutes ago, Stella said:

This is why I believe in the political Jon theory.

Yeah well, I  believe that Tom Hardy will show up at my door naked with flowers. Not gonna happen. 

Edited by GraceK
  • Love 5
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

Political Jon won't happen. Jon is imperfect ruler, just like Daenerys and I think the point is that they need each other to be (almost) perfect. If Jon or Daenerys were great at ruling, what would be the point of that relationship? Pretty people having sex? 

Link to comment
WindyNights

WindyNights

5 minutes ago, nikma said:

Political Jon won't happen. Jon is imperfect ruler, just like Daenerys and I think the point is that they need each other to be (almost) perfect. If Jon or Daenerys were great at ruling, what would be the point of that relationship? Pretty people having sex? 

Jon and Daenerys don't balance each other out. 

Jon is just bad at ruling in general. 

Whatever Jon has to complement Daeneys, Tyrion does it better.

5 hours ago, nikma said:

He trusts that she wants to survive,especially since she is pregnant. And it's a very typical for all chacatres in the show to underestimate how delusional Cersei is. Even Jaime was shocked. 

 

It's not stupid to refuse to make an alliance on false facts that could later create many problems, since it is very important that alliance survives. It's not only about that meeting, it's about actually fighting together. 

The problem is that they shouldn't be. We've been criticizing numerous times about how Jaime is still with Cersei. Even Nikolaj wasn't happy about it.

The Alliance is only meant to be temporary. There's a reason that everyone including Jaime, Dany and Tyrion criticize his decision and thinks him stupid because of it.

 

Even Jon doesn't have a good argument. It's just an ideal that he wants to live up to.

 

I'll repeat the Machiavelli quote: 

 

Many writers have dreamed up republics and kingdoms that bear no resemblance to experience and never existed in reality; there is such a gap between how people actually live and how they ought to live that anyone who declines to behave as people do, in order to behave as they should, is schooling himself for catastrophe and had better forget personal security: if you always want to play the good man in a world where most people are not good, you'll end up badly. Hence, if a ruler wants to survive, he'll have to learn to stop being good, at least when the occasion demands. (15.1)

What you have to understand is that a ruler, especially a ruler new to power, can't always behave in ways that would make people think a man good, because to stay in power he's frequently obliged to act against loyalty, against charity, against humanity and against religion. What matters is that he has the sort of character that can change tack as luck and circumstances demand, and, as I've already said, stick to the good if he can but know how to be bad when the occasion demands. (18.5)

  • Love 2
Link to comment
nikma

nikma

2 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Whatever Jon has to complement Daeneys, Tyrion does it better

Well, the only victory Dany had in S7 was when she ignored Tyrion and listened to Jon. Maybe Tyrion does it better in theory, but he is ineffective against his own family. 

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Stella

Stella

38 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Yeah well, I  believe that Tom Hardy will show up at my door naked with flowers. Not gonna happen. 

My opinion is as valid as yours.

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

 

I agree, we should all calm down ❤️?  peace and Happiness guys 

 

Great advice

Link to comment
GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
10 minutes ago, nikma said:

If that's settled, we should speak about something new and different.

 

What do you expect from Sansa in S8? 

????????????

 

she kills Dany and marries Jon. ? oh and she finds out she’s really a secret Targaryen and rides Drogon.

Edited by GraceK
  • Love 4
Link to comment
Stella

Stella

1 hour ago, nikma said:

 

Political Jon won't happen.

 

My point is that Jon actions were politically astute in season 7, that political Jon already happened. Jon's motivation is only to defeat the NK. He doesn't care about the rest of it. There's really nothing else to this idea. He got what he wanted. He will honor his commitments to her if and when they defeat the NK.

1 hour ago, nikma said:

If Jon or Daenerys were great at ruling, what would be the point of that relationship? Pretty people having sex? 

Isn't the point that they are in love? At least that's what I keep reading here.

Link to comment
nikma

nikma

I'm really big fan of House of Cards, even if I can see all its flaws, and I'm really excited for the last season, even without Frank, but every time I think about that show I thank the old gods and the new that no one in GoT was fired or died or left the show and that D&D were able to tell the story from the beginning to the end the way they wanted. 

And when the shooting was over, I was so happy that no one died lol. 

Traumas from Richard Harris' and Kerry Fisher's death are still with me. 

2 minutes ago, Stella said:

Isn't the point that they are in love? At least that's what I keep reading here.

I agree, but I think the idea is that they are complementing each other.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

1 hour ago, nikma said:

We need trailer, leaks, something,... :(

Please HBO, pleaseeee! Maybe just a poster? Nothing? Okay....maybe the date of the first trailer? The date of the day they will announce the date of the new trailer? Anything???

  • Love 8
Link to comment
screamin

screamin

21 hours ago, anamika said:

Tyrion is either an idiot who failed entirely in his campaign to defeat someone like Cersei with his stupid plans or he is an idiot secretly supporting Cersei and sabotaging Dany

That's like, canon, isn't it? Didn't he admit last season that he'd dissuaded Dany from attacking KL with dragons more to protect Cersei than to keep Dany from inflicting too much collateral damage? Which great move cost Dany the Queen of Thorns and Dorne.

  • Love 4
Link to comment
anamika

anamika

1 hour ago, screamin said:

That's like, canon, isn't it? Didn't he admit last season that he'd dissuaded Dany from attacking KL with dragons more to protect Cersei than to keep Dany from inflicting too much collateral damage? Which great move cost Dany the Queen of Thorns and Dorne.

It remains to be seen next season whether Tyrion was actively and intentionally sabotaging Dany's campaign to help Cersei and Jaime. It could be possible he did, as he sort of admitted in the finale last season. This would mean he deceived Dany and helped the Lannisters stay on in power. I still think that after everything Cersei has done to done to him personally and after everything Cersie has done to others, wanting her to succeed over Dany is not very clever - all those things Tyrion said and did in season 5 becomes meaningless. And it's even more stupid to trust that Cersei would do the right thing - after Tyrion scolds Jon for not lying. And stupid to continue to support Cersei when a zombie apocalypse is on the way. Even Jaime up and left at this point.

Let's see how they tackle Tyrion next season and his motivations.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
18 minutes ago, anamika said:

t remains to be seen next season whether Tyrion was actively and intentionally sabotaging Dany's campaign to help Cersei and Jaime. It could be possible he did, as he sort of admitted in the finale last season. This would mean he deceived Dany and helped the Lannisters stay on in power. I still think that after everything Cersei has done to done to him personally and after everything Cersie has done to others, wanting her to succeed over Dany is not very clever - all those things Tyrion said and did in season 5 becomes meaningless. And it's even more stupid to trust that Cersei would do the right thing - after Tyrion scolds Jon for not lying. And stupid to continue to support Cersei when a zombie apocalypse is on the way. Even Jaime up and left at this point.

 

I think the most logical explanation is that he does want to oust Cersei and he does love Dany. I don’t think he has been actively sabotaging her, the guy murdered his dad and escaped KL  and spend season 5 drunk, depressed and disillusioned. That wasn’t all a sham. I think that the conflict is that although he wants to see Dany on the throne and  Cersei out of power, he doesn’t want his family dead or hurt. He loves Jaime and he feels massive guilt over what happened to Myrcella and Tommen. He doesn’t want his family destroyed, so I think that did effect his judgment somewhat cause he didn’t play hardball . He admitted as much to Cersei, which is stupid because he’s up against someone who has no scruples, no sense of love or family feeling towards him and will use every advantage she can to win, which he should be aware of.  Next season will really show where his ultimate loyalty will lay I guess. ?

Edited by GraceK
  • Love 1
Link to comment
GrailKing

GrailKing

3 hours ago, screamin said:

That's like, canon, isn't it? Didn't he admit last season that he'd dissuaded Dany from attacking KL with dragons more to protect Cersei than to keep Dany from inflicting too much collateral damage? Which great move cost Dany the Queen of Thorns and Dorne.

I don't think he's protecting Cersei, at least prior to the Dragon pit, I do think he was actively putting himself to be her sole adviser, as soon as he stood up for Jorah Mormont, then tells her he can't stay.

Then we have the Varys Tyrion scene where Varys goes to Westeros  for allies; and we see they got the Sandsnakes and Oleana Tyrell .

Someone is giving Cersei info from Dany's camp, I think Tyrion is in contact with Bronn, I don't know if Bronn is working for Tyrion and Jaime, or on Cersei's payroll; but we had no reaction by  Tyrion with the allies they have, yet despite the fact  he was enroute to Westeros, he knew about Myrcella's death and called Elaria on it.

In the death of Joffery, Tyrion picks up the goblet and he and Olaena  lock eyes, Oleana had the look like yeah I did it, I wouldn't be surprised if he figured that out while he escaped KL.

Then he tells his plan at the meeting and Euron  just happens to be in the right area and totally prepared for battle against Yara, so if Tyrion is playing the sides; I think it's revenge for his niece and nephew.

He's trying not to end his family line yet give Danny a victory, he doesn't give a rats ass for Cersei, but Jaime and his child ,that's different Cersei would survive just because she's the oven with that bun, if the baby is born, I think he have no problem with her demise.

If he is betraying the Starks it could be to give Sansa to Cersei; book wise he's resentful of her not bending her knees and leaving him after Joffery's death.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

(edited)

I was thinking about what would make a truly unsatisfying ending, and even more than characters I consider unworthy ending up on top (Cersei had better die finally blaming her vile self for everyone's downfall) it would be one without a clear conclusion.

Part of what involves me in GoT season after season, and imo explains the growing ratings, it's that it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. You feel it's going somewhere. So I can't think of anything worse than GRRM and/or D&D chickening out, going for a cop out and not giving definite endings to characters* I've followed for several years instead of making choices. Even if I might hate those choices. I want a full stop after "the end".

I keep my fingers crossed so that trying not to displease everyone while satisfying no one, the will to keep people talking and debating for years, or the temptation to keep things open just in case -they all say never a sequel, then money talks and most of them are listening- won't get the better of TPTB.

*Killing off everybody, or all the main characters, would also be a cop out for me.

Edited by Happy Harpy
  • Love 1
Link to comment
screamin

screamin

11 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I was thinking about what would make a truly unsatisfying ending, and even more than characters I consider unworthy ending up on top (Cersei had better die finally blaming her vile self for everyone's downfall) it would be one without a clear conclusion.

Part of what involves me in GoT season after season, and imo explains the growing ratings, it's that it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. You feel it's going somewhere. So I can't think of anything worse than GRRM and/or D&D chickening out, going for a cop out and not giving definite endings to characters* I've followed for several years instead of making choices. Even if I might hate those choices. I want a full stop after "the end".

I keep my fingers crossed so that trying not to displease everyone while satisfying no one, the will to keep people talking and debating for years, or the temptation to keep things open just in case -they all say never a sequel, then money talks and most of them are listening- won't get the better of TPTB.

*Killing off everybody, or all the main characters, would also be a cop out for me.

I agree, but I do think that endings for characters like "Arya decides to go off exploring to lands beyond the map" and/or "Dany renounces the Iron Throne to seek a safe refuge to raise her child in the Summer Islands where she can build her own house with a red door" without an indication of how these moves turn out in the future is good enough for me. Uncertainty is a necessary condition for life.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
GrailKing

GrailKing

(edited)

From someone on Reddit translating as it goes.

edited 1 minute ago

Acabo de empezar a ver el video en mi idioma :)

I am watching the video right now.

EDIT 1:

- THE LAST SCENE THAT PETER DRINKLAGE FILMED (NOT THE LAST TYRION´S SCENE) IS FROM EPISODE 6, AND CONSISTS OF TYRION WALKING WITH DAVOS AND JON SNOW THROUGH A SCORCHED KINGS LANDING.

- JON SNOW IS ALIVE AFTER THE KINGS LANDING BATTLE.

- THERE ARE MANY SCORCHED REMAINS OF PEOPLE THAT WERE BURNED ALIVE IN THE CAPITAL.

- TYRION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CASUALTIES. PEOPLE WANTED TO GET OUT OF THE CAPITAL BUT COULD NOT. THERE ARE NO WIGHT CORPSES INSIDE THE CAPITAL.

                                    More comments:

From what I understand from the video, Davos is leading the trial while Bran is the main "accuser" because he can see stuff and gives proof and there’s also a scene with Bran talking to Sansa about it.. I think.. I don’t which part is speculation and which part is actual infos. My spanish isn’t good enough to differentiate.

Also, don’t you think it’s odd that the scene with Tyrion, Jon and Davos is happening in episode 6? If this is before the trial, it means it happens really early in the episode and that the entire episode is post war. If it happens after the trial.. it’s even weirder. But Tyrion could be in chains? Or they just released him before his death?

Please don't rely on this, but if I understood correctly, they say that the person wearing a golden attire at Tyrion's trial is possibly wearing Dornish clothes. Friki sent a picture of Oberyn to one of his sources, and he said that the style matched. It's possible then that Toby Osmond is a Dornish, not a soldier of the Golden Company. Then Friki says that there's a guy with a short beard wearing a green attire, about 60 years old (I don't know if this is something we already knew or a new spoiler) that he theorize is Howland Reed.

Still 10 minutes left but so far the rest is speculation how the series ends. They think last scene will be a birdseye view from the 7 kingdoms including the white north which they filmed in Iceland. Just their theory though.

I think this scene is After the trial as they say Arya comes out alive from the burnt city but we knew that because of the trial already.

Edited by GrailKing
Link to comment
WindyNights

WindyNights

From Kaysen:

"I'm not really buying that Tyrion burns the city theory. The set was burnt top down not bottom up. The top of the tower was painted green to show it was burnt downwards. The top of the dome and the top of the gates where the ballistas were mounted. The city was burnt by a dragon or dragons. Wildfire would be bottom up burning."

Link to comment
WindyNights

WindyNights

Another reddit user:

"No big reveal! Native Spanish speaker. I’m starting to doubt he knows anything. Pretty much a recap of theories and the somewhat spoiler at the end of killing the Others means the end of evil winter magic and the restoration of the lands beyond the wall to pre-children of the forest and balance of the seasons. Both were talking to fast and butting into each other’s conversations. But what I don’t get is that Tyrion burns KL to stop the city from becoming part of the dead but they are accusing him for killing innocents. They do question where the NK dies. Both Friki and Javi have different sources and on the 2 Mystery characters in the pit they think it’s either a Secret Martell or GC and maybe Howland Reed, but that’s just wishful thinking in part of Javi. Need to re watch but it just sounded like topics already discussed on Freefolk!"

Hmmmmmm

Link to comment
GrailKing

GrailKing

(edited)

OKay, so hours later ( some will be as previously stated :but people had more time to interpret.)

Not finished watching the entire video but here you go...

They’re speculating that the last chapter will be a bran chapter featuring Tyrion’s trial (paralleling the first chapter of the book)

Tyrion’s last scene includes him walking alongside Davos and Jon snow (burned bodies everywhere)

It is discovered that innocent people were burned at Tyrion’s command - to avoid having them turn

No wights visible in kings landing

Edit: Arya is caught in the fire and escapes - it is not known how

==================================================================================================================================

The timeline is all jumbled up for me to make any sense of it. But without trying to make sense of it, as I understand it, these are the spoilers without any speculation on their part:

Friki's

Tyrion's treason is revealed in a scene involving Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, and Daenerys.

Tyrion's trial is what was filmed in Seville. The trail is led by Davos, and in this scene there is Arya, Bran, Sansa, Yara, Robin, Sam, Brienne, and Grey Worm (I may be missing some?)

Tyrion is executed (not filmed in Seville)

Javi's

He basically confirms Friki's spoilers, saying that he heard the same thing. They have different sources.

A scene in episode 6 in which Davos, Jon and Tyrion are walking in King's Landing. Apparently this is the aftermath of the destruction of the city. The camera pans to Tyrion showing him horrified?

Tyrion is responsible for the burning of King's Landing.

Javi was told that there were no wight's inside the city walls when this burning takes place. Tyrion's objective was to avoid the city population from turning into wight.

================================================================================================================================================

Edited by GrailKing
Link to comment
Azi

Azi

Starting to wonder if (If the spoilers are real and play out like that) It might be a similiar situation like in AHS: Coven, where one of the endgame "Queen" supporters demanded to be executed for her crimes to protect her friend's future reign aka "They won't support you if you play favorites."

Maybe Tyrion knows that Westerors would hate him too much after what he did to KL to support Dany on the throne? But he also wants a trial cause she also can't execute people without one. 

Ofc that doesn't really fit the Bran as the accuser stuff...just spitballing here, cause what else can we do.

Link to comment
Wouter

Wouter

On 26-10-2018 at 3:19 AM, WindyNights said:

From Kaysen:

"I'm not really buying that Tyrion burns the city theory. The set was burnt top down not bottom up. The top of the tower was painted green to show it was burnt downwards. The top of the dome and the top of the gates where the ballistas were mounted. The city was burnt by a dragon or dragons. Wildfire would be bottom up burning."

So, what do we think? Now Javi supports Frikidoctor.

What they are saying (speculating?) now is hard to frame in the 3-way war between Cersei/Euron, Dany/Jon and the NK, though. For Tyrion to be able to stop people from leaving KL, he either needs an army guarding the gates (hardly possible, since the army of the death is about to arrive and Tyrion is definitely not in control of that - a Dany army outside KL could either defend the city or they would be massacred themselves, making the point moot) or he needs to be in control of the city itself (at the very least, in control of all of the gates). So, does Dany take KL before the NK attacks it (in which case, Tyrion and co could survive inside the Red Keep) or is Cersei/Euron still in control? If the latter, it's hard to see how Tyrion could close off the gates. This is not like Oldtown when the plague hit it, lord Hightower was well placed to seal off the city. 

It also seems like it closing off KL would not be a betrayal of the Starks in particular. Maybe Jon and/or Dany would see it as a betrayal, but Tyrion would view it as necessary ( I suppose) to win the war with the NK - and Sansa, Arya and Bran wouldn't be particularly betrayed unless they would happen to be in the city at that point. But since Friki also says that all three survive, this seems unlikely as well.

It does seem that HBO has gone to quite some length in a misinformation campaign. Either Friki is correct and they organised an elaborate charade at Seville, or HBO managed to fool both Friki and Javi with false leaks.

Link to comment
SimoneS

SimoneS

I have been skeptical of Frikidoctor's leaks about Tyrion from the start. Even playing out scenarios with his version of the story, I am remain unconvinced. Neither Frikidoctor or Javi have clearly stated exactly what act of treason Tyrion commits. Also, why isn't Dany at the trial? They should know this. All this said, based on Peter Dinklage's comments, I do think that Tyrion does something horrible and maybe dies.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...