S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[companionenvy]

22 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And also, I think it's a pretty big deal to basically decide to slaughter a bunch of human beings. Even shitty human beings. If it's genuinely kill-or-be-killed, that's one thing. But I don't think that Sam was all that convincing that it was, seeing as he gave no specifics. And even if everybody is Rah-Rah about killing every soul in the place with no further questions, the logistics of that are still pretty complicated. You can't just commit a massacre and then blow up a big building filled with tech and medical waste and whatever, all on a whim.

I agree there needed to be some discussion of this. Not that I think they were wrong to kill the BMOL -- it actually bothers me when fantasy/Sci-fi shows insist upon an absolute distinction between humans (including evil ones) and non-humans. It isn't like the police could deal with the BMOL, so IMO the hunters were as justified taking them out as they would have been in taking out a vamp nest. But I do think that position should have been more clearly articulated. I also would have been a little more comfortable if there had been some nod to the possibility that there might be at least a few people in the base who weren't totally irredeemable; after all, had some other hunters decided to go in a few days earlier, Mary would have been in the firing line. Really, just a few lines of dialogue would have done it.

I was actually more disturbed by the fact that Dean and Sam were, apparently, seriously contemplating what would in effect have been an execution of Lady Toni. Not that it wouldn't have been justified -- I'm not sure that they could have risked letting her go -- but the casualness with which they weighed killing a woman who did not pose an immediate threat bugged me. Again, not saying it would have been the wrong decision, but I think they should have acknowledged the moral gravity of the situation if they were going to go there.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I was actually more disturbed by the fact that Dean and Sam were, apparently, seriously contemplating what would in effect have been an execution of Lady Toni. Not that it wouldn't have been justified -- I'm not sure that they could have risked letting her go -- but the casualness with which they weighed killing a woman who did not pose an immediate threat bugged me. Again, not saying it would have been the wrong decision, but I think they should have acknowledged the moral gravity of the situation if they were going to go there.

I didn't have any problem with this given her treatment of them. She literally tried to kill them, tortured Sam for days and mind raped him. I don't think there is any certainty she didn't pose a threat.  Remember when all she had to do was cut her hand and recite a blood spell that strangled Mary?

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I agree there needed to be some discussion of this. Not that I think they were wrong to kill the BMOL -- it actually bothers me when fantasy/Sci-fi shows insist upon an absolute distinction between humans (including evil ones) and non-humans. It isn't like the police could deal with the BMOL, so IMO the hunters were as justified taking them out as they would have been in taking out a vamp nest. But I do think that position should have been more clearly articulated. I also would have been a little more comfortable if there had been some nod to the possibility that there might be at least a few people in the base who weren't totally irredeemable; after all, had some other hunters decided to go in a few days earlier, Mary would have been in the firing line. Really, just a few lines of dialogue would have done it.

I was actually more disturbed by the fact that Dean and Sam were, apparently, seriously contemplating what would in effect have been an execution of Lady Toni. Not that it wouldn't have been justified -- I'm not sure that they could have risked letting her go -- but the casualness with which they weighed killing a woman who did not pose an immediate threat bugged me. Again, not saying it would have been the wrong decision, but I think they should have acknowledged the moral gravity of the situation if they were going to go there.

I was more disturbed by what the writers did to Jody.  While I can understand her wanting to stop the BMOL--after all, they had planned to kill Claire and were trying to kill her--but *she is not a hunter.*  She is tough and determined and has killed monsters *when necessary* and has found cases for the Winchesters and helped them in the fight.  BUT..unlike the other hunters, she doesn't years of experience in cold-blooded killing, even of monsters; and, as a trained and dedicated police officer, I would think executing humans, no matter how bad/dangerous they might be, would at least give her a twinge.  But she was pretty cold about shooting Umbridge in the head (not to mention all the collateral pencil-pushers in the compound, like the woman who did research.)  There's a difference between being badass and stone cold.  I think the writers made her cross a line and nobody even noticed or commented.   

Edited May 23, 2017 by ahrtee

[Idahoforspn]

24 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I was more disturbed by what the writers did to Jody.  While I can understand her wanting to stop the BMOL--after all, they had planned to kill Claire and were trying to kill her--but *she is not a hunter.*  She is tough and determined and has killed monsters *when necessary* and has found cases for the Winchesters and helped them in the fight.  BUT..unlike the other hunters, she doesn't years of experience in cold-blooded killing, even of monsters; and, as a trained and dedicated police officer, I would think executing humans, no matter how bad/dangerous they might be, would at least give her a twinge.  But she was pretty cold about shooting Umbridge in the head (not to mention all the collateral pencil-pushers in the compound, like the woman who did research.)  There's a difference between being badass and stone cold.  I think the writers made her cross a line and nobody even noticed or commented.   

I never even thought about the woman doing research and that maybe she was just a computer tech. Got me thinking so I went back and watched that scene. She was actually pointing a gun at the hunters when they shot her so not really an innocent. She also knew exactly what the BMOL we're doing and was actively participating using her computer skills to find hunters to be executed. So an accomplice to multiple murders. While Lady Bevell would have been an execution (deserved), the research lady was not.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

I never even thought about the woman doing research and that maybe she was just a computer tech. Got me thinking so I went back and watched that scene. She was actually pointing a gun at the hunters when they shot her so not really an innocent. She also knew exactly what the BMOL we're doing and was actively participating using her computer skills to find hunters to be executed. So an accomplice to multiple murders. While Lady Bevell would have been an execution (deserved), the research lady was not.

OTOH, the research lady was defending herself against an armed band who had broken into her workplace and was shooting everyone without pause or question.  Whether she knew the BMOL were doing terrible things or honestly believed they were right doesn't really matter in that case.  Self-defense goes both ways, and it was the hunters who were the aggressors there.  They weren't trying to take prisoners or decide who "deserved" to die.  

But  Hess (?) was an execution: whether or not she was reaching for a gun (and I don't remember details, except that Jody wasn't in imminent danger), Jody went straight for the head shot without blinking.  

I'm not defending *any* of the BMOL, or even blaming the hunters.  I'm just saying to have Jody--who would have had years of training *not* to shoot unless necessary-- be so OK with going in and shooting everyone in sight *should be* OOC for her, and should have had some acknowledgment.  We never even saw any of them making plans--they just went from Sam's speech straight to the fight.   I would have liked a pause where Sam and/or Dean could ask her "are you all right with this?"   Having her say something like, "not really, but it has to be done," would have at least acknowledged that there *should have been* a problem.

But that was the problem with both these episodes...they left out too many of the little beats that would have tied things together and made things more understandable/acceptable.  I'm assuming they either figured they didn't need them (because we would be too enthralled with the battle scenes) or cut them to make time for more bloody deaths.   

Again, JMO.  

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

ut  Hess (?) was an execution: whether or not she was reaching for a gun (and I don't remember details, except that Jody wasn't in imminent danger), Jody went straight for the head shot without blinking.  

Quote

I'm just saying to have Jody--who would have had years of training *not* to shoot unless necessary-

Here is the scene.  Hess went for a gun as soon as they got there. Sam told her to not try. 

Then later Hess still went for the gun, pointed it at Jody and Sam. Most police officers are trained to shoot-to-kill, not shoot-to-maim, especially when they have a gun pointed at them with a suspect who intends to shoot them. Jody killing Hess was the least bothersome to me, IMO.

Edited May 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

OTOH, the research lady was defending herself against an armed band who had broken into her workplace and was shooting everyone without pause or question.  Whether she knew the BMOL were doing terrible things or honestly believed they were right doesn't really matter in that case.  Self-defense goes both ways, and it was the hunters who were the aggressors there.

I don't agree the hunters were the aggressors. I would actually say they were the ones that could claim self defense. They didn't start it. The BMoL were literally hunting them down and killing them. To me it's like taking out a terrorist camp that is sending out suicide bombers that have already killed multiple people.

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

 

But  Hess (?) was an execution: whether or not she was reaching for a gun (and I don't remember details, except that Jody wasn't in imminent danger), Jody went straight for the head shot without blinking.  

Hess grabbed a gun and was raising it. Police officers are taught that if someone is in the process of  shooting you, your partner, or civilians, go for the kill shot. They train to make these decisions in a split second. Hess was raising a gun. She was absolutely a threat. Jody acted according to her law enforcement training. However an officer would normally aim for largest body mass ( the chest) instead of the head. Anyway, absolutely self defense even in a court of law.

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not defending *any* of the BMOL, or even blaming the hunters.  I'm just saying to have Jody--who would have had years of training *not* to shoot unless necessary-- be so OK with going in and shooting everyone in sight *should be* OOC for her, and should have had some acknowledgment.  We never even saw any of them making plans--they just went from Sam's speech straight to the fight.

I can absolutely see your point but you also need to remember Mary had just almost succeeded in murdering Jody while pretending to be a friend. I think that probably swayed her in Sam's direction a little faster.

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

  I would have liked a pause where Sam and/or Dean could ask her "are you all right with this?"   Having her say something like, "not really, but it has to be done," would have at least acknowledged that there *should have been* a problem.

There were a number of things about how none of the hunters questioned Sam and how easily they fell in line that were (IMO) unrealistic. I  think the hunters should have needed a little more convincing/information. They just seemed to blindly follow.

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But that was the problem with both these episodes...they left out too many of the little beats that would have tied things together and made things more understandable/acceptable.  I'm assuming they either figured they didn't need them (because we would be too enthralled with the battle scenes) or cut them to make time for more bloody deaths.   

Again, JMO.  

I agree there.

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I was actually more disturbed by the fact that Dean and Sam were, apparently, seriously contemplating what would in effect have been an execution of Lady Toni. Not that it wouldn't have been justified -- I'm not sure that they could have risked letting her go -- but the casualness with which they weighed killing a woman who did not pose an immediate threat bugged me. Again, not saying it would have been the wrong decision, but I think they should have acknowledged the moral gravity of the situation if they were going to go there.

I question whether they would have actually shot her.  It's easy to say it but to actually execute someone in cold blood isn't easy.  It reminds me of that scene in Croatoan where Dean had Duane tied up.  He believed Duane had been infected and he even locked Sam in a room and was planning on shooting him.  Then when he had the gun on him, you could Dean wresting with the idea of shooting a kid and questioning whether he was infected.

If Dean did take Toni out back, I can see it going either way.  I would believe it in character if he did it, but I could also see Toni pulling the "i have a son card" and Dean telling her to take a one way flight to England. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think one thing that wasn't included in the speech and really needed to be -- in order to make it a conversation and not just a lousy TED talk -- is *how Sam knows* that they're in danger, that they're all going to be slaughtered, what the timeline is for that (need to strike immediately), etc.

IMO we needed to see the hunters actively participating and having their minds changed during the speech -- Sam's mind was already made up going in, so that would really be the only way to make it a dynamic scene IMO.

In any case, I don't think that it should necessarily have been such an easy sell to get them to go to the HQ. Sam was coming from a place of not having a whole lot of credibility, seeing as he has a reputation for poor judgement with at least some of the hunters there (eg Roy and Walt) and was just admitting another major error in judgement. In fact, you'd think they'd be relatively suspicious of Sam, not just lacking in faith in him. And these hunters are presumably a pretty tough sell in general, seeing as they didn't fall for the BMOL's pitch.

And also, I think it's a pretty big deal to basically decide to slaughter a bunch of human beings. Even shitty human beings. If it's genuinely kill-or-be-killed, that's one thing. But I don't think that Sam was all that convincing that it was, seeing as he gave no specifics. And even if everybody is Rah-Rah about killing every soul in the place with no further questions, the logistics of that are still pretty complicated. You can't just commit a massacre and then blow up a big building filled with tech and medical waste and whatever, all on a whim.

Honestly, I know that seems kind of tertiary, but I really wish all that hadn't been ignored. It's yet another way that the show could have differentiated between the American hunters and the BMOL. I mean in a way that actually demonstrated the difference, not just Sam telling everybody that there's a difference.

But anyway, the speech itself was more of an eye-roller than a rage-blackout-causer for me, because I think it's in keeping with the show's overall handling of Sam's storyline with the BMOL. I feel like Sam's emotional through-line this season was just pretty poorly done. That's not bitch v jerk, I like Sam and I think I grok him pretty well. But his story especially in the back half of the season didn't make a whole lot of emotional sense IMO.

Yeah, I just posted in another thread that I think the biggest problem is they needed to spread out the last three episode into four. That way we would've had the time to see them planning and executing and the aftermath of the raid. As it was, Sam gave a speech, they went and shot some people and blew up a building.

There really needed to be less speechifying and more doing. We needed to see the discussion that they were going to take out a bunch of humans, many who probably were just doing their jobs. How many of them were "teachable" like Mick? In the end, I felt like they were doing what they were condemning the Brits for doing.

Plus, there was a lot of useful crap in that base. You'd think they would've salvaged some of it before blowing it up. And, the explosion was silly anyway, that's just going to draw unwanted attention to a warehouse fully of corpses with bullet holes in them. I think it would've been smarter to just quietly clean the place out.

Anyway, I think too much of the meat of these last few episodes happened off screen. It makes it hard to be invested when they short-cut everything to a lame speech and an anticlimactic explosion. 

[SueB]

Reading through the arguments, I would have to say that the actions of the Hunters would fall under the "Just War" principles.  Stated simply, while violence is to be avoided, a just war is to restore the peace when all other means have failed.  [The"Just War" theory comes from St. Augustine's writings and generally guide most democratic nation-states.]

Why it applies:
1. The American Hunters are the RIGHT people to take on this war. Although the American Hunters are obviously not a nation-state, nor do they have a written set of governing laws, within the Supernatural world, they are a recognized group of people.  This season went to some lengths to show they have developed a set of moral codes (like what Bucky did to Asa Fox was wrong) and that their FIRST mission is to save innocent people.  MOST importantly, there is no parity with an equivalent American Men of Letters EXCEPT Sam and Dean Winchester.  Further, use of non-Supernatural U.S. law enforcement is not viable because 1) they would be out of their depth, and 2) they'd put an end to the "saving people" due to lack of understanding. **see Buffy the Vampire Slayer discussion below** 
2. This is, in fact, war.  In the Supernatural world, the BMoL have declared war on the American Hunters.  They are the aggressors.  The BMoL have decided to exterminate all American Hunters.  There is no peaceful option and they have already taken out huge numbers.  So, "all peaceful means have failed.". 
3. Sam was actually obeying the basic rules of war. There was no violence for violence sake.  He made it clear, "We go in fast and hard and we fight. And we beat them down until they give up or until they are dead." This is pretty clear Rules of Engagement.  No one surrendered.  No one laid down their weapons and raised their hands. Except, potentially Hess.  Who tried to parley for success and then reached for a gun.  Theoretically, she COULD have said "I surrender". At THAT point, killing her WOULD have been wrong IMO.  However, she's definitely guilty of war crimes (killing of bystanders and family members of hunters).  So, without a form of trial, she would either be sent home or executed for her "crimes".  The show took the easy way out and had her reach for her gun, so she was a valid target.  She couldn't simply have been left on her own because she did represent a clear and present danger to American Hunters.  So, if the BMoL wanted to negotiate for her return, that may have been viable.  But it sounds like they had cut their loses with her.
4. Complete and total elimination of the BMoL in America restored peace.  Which was the end goal.  And that was achieved.  There was no torture. No pursuit into British spaces.  No attempt to prolong the conflict.  The threat was removed, and peace reestablished.  That was the objective and it was achieved. 

Two exceptions: Lady Toni & Ketch
- I must admit, when Dean told Lady Toni they were going to take a short walk I thought "WOAH".  Dean was not bluffing -- or he was doing it very well.  He was going to go out back, put a bullet in her head, and not get blood on Jody's carpet (awfully polite and keeps her out of it).  At this point, she was an unrepentant captured prisoner. And is you think "she earned her death" -- well, that's a revenge motivation -- which is not "just war."  However, Dean did not in fact go through with it, and was seriously considering giving her a chance to flee to England (no way would he chase her down).  So, Dean's off the hook.  And while his intent may have been there, until he pulled that trigger, he hadn't crossed the line.
- Ketch, the idiot, went mano-a-mano to prove his penis size (oh, I'm sorry, was it more sophisticated than that?  I missed it).  But he was also a trained assassin who, while momentarily unarmed, would have continued to fight. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he invaded their home.  And Kansas has the Castle Law and the Stand Your Ground law.  So the Winchesters could in fact use deadly force without violating the law. Now, does that make it the MORAL choice is a different matter.  In this case, when Ketch said "You're a killer." Dean replied, "We Are."  But Dean's moral code is that he doesn't kill for pleasure, he kills "for a reason". Killing Ketch was killing a clear and present danger.  He had proven he was a psychopath who killed for the thrill of it.  Like Cain, he had already murdered innocents and would continue to do so, unchecked, if not stopped.  
Bottom Line: Lady Toni ultimately was not killed by them and Ketch was killed because he remained an active threat.    

***Buffy the Vampire Slayer "I am the law" theory: In the Whedonverse, Buffy makes this statement that because the rest of the world had no knowledge of the supernatural creatures she fought, as the Chosen One, she had to make those decisions (who lives or dies).  In the series, she had her Watcher and her Scooby Gang to help balance out the decision making but she ultimately decided.  In the comic series, the world becomes aware of the supernatural creatures and three seasons into this knowledge, they've rounded up ALL supernatural creatures and those who do magic and put them in internment camp.  This is a strong argument for why ultimately just telling the populace and letting normal rule of law prevail does not work out.  People are too fearful and easily swayed. It may ULTIMATELY work out but not in any quick fashion.  So again, "supernatural world rules" is a valid rationale IMO for why the hunters could act against the BMoL. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

There were a number of things about how none of the hunters questioned Sam and how easily they fell in line that were (IMO) unrealistic. I  think the hunters should have needed a little more convincing/information. They just seemed to blindly follow.

I agree with the rest of your post, except for this.  We know that Mary (maybe even some of the BMoL redshirts who we saw being briefed by Hess at the beginning - and given the instructions that there were no limits - which meant take out all family members, including children and any innocent bystanders who happened to be witnesses) had already taken out several (3 in show) other American hunters.  I think it's entirely reasonable to presume that some of those present knew some of the ones who had already been slain.  If so, I don't they would have - or should have - needed much convincing to go after the BMoL.  ymmv.  

I'm also pretty sure Dean and Sam got any/all information about the BMoL SOP out of Lady Notlongtolive, and Mary since she seemed pretty eager to rub it in their faces, before the other hunters got there.  The brief "You sure about this?" from Dean to Sam right before Sam's speech seemed to reinforce that to me.

And what @SueB said about War above.  That's why I didn't have any problem with the raid or killing the BMoL or Jody or Sam shooting humans or Dean taking DeadLady for a short walk out back.    

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

Stated simply, while violence is to be avoided, a just war is to restore the peace when all other means have failed.

Except, they hadn't tried any other means. They found out they were targets and decided to make the other guys targets instead. They were just reacting instead of thinking it all through. There was no attempt to negotiate nor any other actions taken to try and mediate the situation. They didn't even know what the situation was until a few days before the raid. 

But, even if they had thought it all through, I think that should've been actually seen rather than wasting time on that speech and the explosion, myself. That was the meat of it, IMO, the rest was just shooting people and blowing stuff up.

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

Complete and total elimination of the BMoL in America restored peace.  Which was the end goal.  And that was achieved.  There was no torture. No pursuit into British spaces.  No attempt to prolong the conflict.  The threat was removed, and peace reestablished.  That was the objective and it was achieved. 

Except it doesn't necessarily restore peace. IMO, it most likely escalated it to war. This was a small group of people all at one neat and tidy location, there's more where that came from. Are we really to believe the larger organization is fine with letting this stand after they killed one of their own and hunted a woman across an ocean and back for killing one of their underlings? I certainly don't. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't come in full force next season and have an all-out war with the American hunters, for nothing more than saving face. This wasn't even close to war, if you ask me. This was skirmish at most.

Personally, I think it's set up for Sam and Dean to organize the American hunter system to work more as a unified force. I definitely don't think it's over. I feel like this season was just the tip of the iceberg giving us a taste of the larger war to come.

Edited May 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except, they hadn't tried any other means. They found out they were targets and decided to make the other guys targets instead. They were just reacting instead of thinking it all through. But, even if they had thought it all through, I think that should've been actually seen rather than wasting time on that speech and the explosion, myself. That was the meat of it, IMO, the rest was just shooting people and blowing stuff up.

Except it doesn't necessarily restore peace, IMO, it most likely escalated it to war. This was a small group of people all at one neat and tidy location, there's more where that came from. Are we really to believe the larger organization is fine with letting this stand after they killed one of their own and hunted a woman across an ocean and back for killing one of their underlings? I certainly don't. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't come in full force next season and have an all-out war with the American hunters, for nothing more than saving face. This wasn't even close to war, if you ask me. This was skirmish at most.

Personally, I think it's set up for Sam and Dean to organize the American hunter system to work more as a unified force. I definitely don't think it's over. I feel like this season was just the tip of the iceberg giving us a taste of the larger war to come.

While I agree it's potentially not over, I think they took out the immediate incursion.  And Sam's statement that the BMoL were NOT trying to work with them, they were trying to essentially become an occupying force in America.  So.. with the BMoL's intentions clear, I think all peaceful means had been REASONABLY ruled out.  And again, the BMoL were the aggressors.  

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I question whether they would have actually shot her.  It's easy to say it but to actually execute someone in cold blood isn't easy.  It reminds me of that scene in Croatoan where Dean had Duane tied up.  He believed Duane had been infected and he even locked Sam in a room and was planning on shooting him.  Then when he had the gun on him, you could Dean wresting with the idea of shooting a kid and questioning whether he was infected.

If Dean did take Toni out back, I can see it going either way.  I would believe it in character if he did it, but I could also see Toni pulling the "i have a son card" and Dean telling her to take a one way flight to England. 

I actually thought that too but where we didn't see anything on screen, decided not too. I could be wrong but weren't the only other humans he "executed" when he had the MoC.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Reading through the arguments, I would have to say that the actions of the Hunters would fall under the "Just War" principles.  Stated simply, while violence is to be avoided, a just war is to restore the peace when all other means have failed.  [The"Just War" theory comes from St. Augustine's writings and generally guide most democratic nation-states.]

Why it applies:
1. The American Hunters are the RIGHT people to take on this war. Although the American Hunters are obviously not a nation-state, nor do they have a written set of governing laws, within the Supernatural world, they are a recognized group of people.  This season went to some lengths to show they have developed a set of moral codes (like what Bucky did to Asa Fox was wrong) and that their FIRST mission is to save innocent people.  MOST importantly, there is no parity with an equivalent American Men of Letters EXCEPT Sam and Dean Winchester.  Further, use of non-Supernatural U.S. law enforcement is not viable because 1) they would be out of their depth, and 2) they'd put an end to the "saving people" due to lack of understanding. **see Buffy the Vampire Slayer discussion below** 
2. This is, in fact, war.  In the Supernatural world, the BMoL have declared war on the American Hunters.  They are the aggressors.  The BMoL have decided to exterminate all American Hunters.  There is no peaceful option and they have already taken out huge numbers.  So, "all peaceful means have failed.". 
3. Sam was actually obeying the basic rules of war. There was no violence for violence sake.  He made it clear, "We go in fast and hard and we fight. And we beat them down until they give up or until they are dead." This is pretty clear Rules of Engagement.  No one surrendered.  No one laid down their weapons and raised their hands. Except, potentially Hess.  Who tried to parley for success and then reached for a gun.  Theoretically, she COULD have said "I surrender". At THAT point, killing her WOULD have been wrong IMO.  However, she's definitely guilty of war crimes (killing of bystanders and family members of hunters).  So, without a form of trial, she would either be sent home or executed for her "crimes".  The show took the easy way out and had her reach for her gun, so she was a valid target.  She couldn't simply have been left on her own because she did represent a clear and present danger to American Hunters.  So, if the BMoL wanted to negotiate for her return, that may have been viable.  But it sounds like they had cut their loses with her.
4. Complete and total elimination of the BMoL in America restored peace.  Which was the end goal.  And that was achieved.  There was no torture. No pursuit into British spaces.  No attempt to prolong the conflict.  The threat was removed, and peace reestablished.  That was the objective and it was achieved. 

Two exceptions: Lady Toni & Ketch
- I must admit, when Dean told Lady Toni they were going to take a short walk I thought "WOAH".  Dean was not bluffing -- or he was doing it very well.  He was going to go out back, put a bullet in her head, and not get blood on Jody's carpet (awfully polite and keeps her out of it).  At this point, she was an unrepentant captured prisoner. And is you think "she earned her death" -- well, that's a revenge motivation -- which is not "just war."  However, Dean did not in fact go through with it, and was seriously considering giving her a chance to flee to England (no way would he chase her down).  So, Dean's off the hook.  And while his intent may have been there, until he pulled that trigger, he hadn't crossed the line.
- Ketch, the idiot, went mano-a-mano to prove his penis size (oh, I'm sorry, was it more sophisticated than that?  I missed it).  But he was also a trained assassin who, while momentarily unarmed, would have continued to fight. MORE IMPORTANTLY, he invaded their home.  And Kansas has the Castle Law and the Stand Your Ground law.  So the Winchesters could in fact use deadly force without violating the law. Now, does that make it the MORAL choice is a different matter.  In this case, when Ketch said "You're a killer." Dean replied, "We Are."  But Dean's moral code is that he doesn't kill for pleasure, he kills "for a reason". Killing Ketch was killing a clear and present danger.  He had proven he was a psychopath who killed for the thrill of it.  Like Cain, he had already murdered innocents and would continue to do so, unchecked, if not stopped.  
Bottom Line: Lady Toni ultimately was not killed by them and Ketch was killed because he remained an active threat.    

***Buffy the Vampire Slayer "I am the law" theory: In the Whedonverse, Buffy makes this statement that because the rest of the world had no knowledge of the supernatural creatures she fought, as the Chosen One, she had to make those decisions (who lives or dies).  In the series, she had her Watcher and her Scooby Gang to help balance out the decision making but she ultimately decided.  In the comic series, the world becomes aware of the supernatural creatures and three seasons into this knowledge, they've rounded up ALL supernatural creatures and those who do magic and put them in internment camp.  This is a strong argument for why ultimately just telling the populace and letting normal rule of law prevail does not work out.  People are too fearful and easily swayed. It may ULTIMATELY work out but not in any quick fashion.  So again, "supernatural world rules" is a valid rationale IMO for why the hunters could act against the BMoL. 

Awesome explanation!

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree with the rest of your post, except for this.  We know that Mary (maybe even some of the BMoL redshirts who we saw being briefed by Hess at the beginning - and given the instructions that there were no limits - which meant take out all family members, including children and any innocent bystanders who happened to be witnesses) had already taken out several (3 in show) other American hunters.  I think it's entirely reasonable to presume that some of those present knew some of the ones who had already been slain.  If so, I don't they would have - or should have - needed much convincing to go after the BMoL.  ymmv.  

I'm also pretty sure Dean and Sam got any/all information about the BMoL SOP out of Lady Notlongtolive, and Mary since she seemed pretty eager to rub it in their faces, before the other hunters got there.  The brief "You sure about this?" from Dean to Sam right before Sam's speech seemed to reinforce that to me.

And what @SueB said about War above.  That's why I didn't have any problem with the raid or killing the BMoL or Jody or Sam shooting humans or Dean taking DeadLady for a short walk out back.    

I would have just liked a little more of them showing us the hunters actually had all the relevant information. For me, it just felt to rushed.

[Idahoforspn]

49 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except, they hadn't tried any other means. They found out they were targets and decided to make the other guys targets instead. They were just reacting instead of thinking it all through. There was no attempt to negotiate nor any other actions taken to try and mediate the situation. They didn't even know what the situation was until a few days before the raid. 

But, even if they had thought it all through, I think that should've been actually seen rather than wasting time on that speech and the explosion, myself. That was the meat of it, IMO, the rest was just shooting people and blowing stuff up.Except it doesn't necessarily restore peace. IMO, it most likely escalated it to war. This was a small group of people all at one neat and tidy location, there's more where that came from. Are we really to believe the larger organization is fine with letting this stand after they killed one of their own and hunted a woman across an ocean and back for killing one of their underlings?

Yup. The Steins never did anything. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

<snip>

There were a number of things about how none of the hunters questioned Sam and how easily they fell in line that were (IMO) unrealistic. I  think the hunters should have needed a little more convincing/information. They just seemed to blindly follow.

 

I don't think they needed convincing to fight, but especially Roy & Walt should've needed a little more convincing to follow the Winchesters, particularly Sam. I guess maybe we're supposed to think they changed their minds about him when killing them didn't actually, you know, kill them?

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Yup. The Steins never did anything. 

Well, I think that was silly, myself, but I don't think the Steins were anywhere near the organization the BMoL are. The Steins were just one family based out of one small town in the South. The BMoL have the resources to cover a whole country--a small country, but a country, none-the-less.

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I think that was silly, myself, but I don't think the Steins were anywhere near the organization the BMoL are. The Steins were just one family based out of one small town in the South. The BMoL have the resources to cover a whole country--a small country, but a country, none-the-less.

Part of Steins big speech was the American Steins were part of a large powerful international family. They didn't even originate in America if I remember correctly.

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think they needed convincing to fight, but especially Roy & Walt should've needed a little more convincing to follow the Winchesters, particularly Sam. I guess maybe we're supposed to think they changed their minds about him when killing them didn't actually, you know, kill them?

I'd say they were probably terrified about the Winchesters after they heard they came back.  And after 7 years of not coming to kill them, they probably felt it was okay to see what they had to say.

Sam and Dean are legendary for having stopped the Apocalypse (as well as started it).  So... that's SOOOOOO far out of most people's wheelhouse, AND they didn't die when they were killed -- I think that's enough bona fides for Roy and Walt to follow.  Plus, they kinda owed him one.  

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

Part of Steins big speech was the American Steins were part of a large powerful international family. They didn't even originate in America if I remember correctly.

Right, they has a history that was long passed. They dabbled in politics and such, but they were no longer major world figures, IMO. I thought that's why they wanted The Book of the Damned, to use it to restore them as world figures? Regardless, Dean wiped them all out in one day. Apparently there are no more Steins; Or not enough of them to organize again. The BMoL who were at that base were a very small number--even less than in number than the Steins we saw. There has to be far more of them back in Britain for them to be able to organize on that level.

Personally, I feel like the reason they killed everyone off in the finale was to take away all Sam and Dean's resources to force them to have to unite and organize the remaining American hunters in an all-out war against the Brits. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, they has a history that was long passed. They dabbled in politics and such, but they were no longer major world figures, IMO. I thought that's why they wanted The Book of the Damned, to use it to restore them as world figures? Regardless, Dean wiped them all out in one day. Apparently there are no more Steins; Or not enough of them to organize again. The BMoL who were at that base were a very small number--even less than in number than the Steins we saw. There has to be far more of them back in Britain for them to be able to organize on that level.

Personally, I feel like the reason they killed everyone off in the finale was to take away all Sam and Dean's resources to force them to have to unite and organize the remaining American hunters in an all-out war against the Brits. 

I thought Stein talked about how they were still powerful around the world but would be even more powerful with the book. I remember at the time of the broadcast thinking so now the writers are just going to ignore the powerful international part if this historied organization because S&D took care of the American branch and Dean doesn't like to fly?

[Idahoforspn]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, they has a history that was long passed. They dabbled in politics and such, but they were no longer major world figures, IMO. I thought that's why they wanted The Book of the Damned, to use it to restore them as world figures? Regardless, Dean wiped them all out in one day. Apparently there are no more Steins; Or not enough of them to organize again. The BMoL who were at that base were a very small number--even less than in number than the Steins we saw. There has to be far more of them back in Britain for them to be able to organize on that level.

Personally, I feel like the reason they killed everyone off in the finale was to take away all Sam and Dean's resources to force them to have to unite and organize the remaining American hunters in an all-out war against the Brits. 

SAM: We wanted the book because that's where your power comes from. See, our family business is putting guys like you out of business.

ELDON: Oh. It's impressive. Let me tell you about my family business. You're in way over your heads. The family is vast . . . spread over the world. And that power that you mentioned doesn't come from the book. It comes from intelligence and will. The book facilitates. Stock market dive, recession, 9/11 . . . any of them ring a bell? Arab spring. Didn't even break a sweat.

SAM: Okay. Why?

ELDON: Well, you got to be in it to win it, boys. You see, chaos breeds fear. Fear breeds panic, and panic breeds desperation, and there's always profit to be made from desperation. You make a big enough mess, has to get cleaned up. And we've been in the fix-it business for 1,000 years, and business has never been better. (Sam’s phone starts vibrating. Cas is calling) Now, for the last 80 years, we haven't had the book. With the book, we're unstoppable.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought Stein talked about how they were still powerful around the world but would be even more powerful with the book. I remember at the time of the broadcast thinking so now the writers are just going to ignore the powerful international part if this historied organization because S&D took care of the American branch and Dean doesn't like to fly?

I thought they had been chased out of their own country and had been forced to the colonies to hide and regroup after Mary Shelly wrote her book and exposed all their secrets? They still used their knowledge of the supernatural to effect world chaos, but it didn't seem like they were this large international organization to me.

ETA: To be fair, I don't think the Brits are as big and powerful as they think either, but from what we saw, they do seem to be more organized than the Stynes were. And, quite possibly, this push back against the BMoL might also get some of the other international MoL chapters to back the Brits? 

Edited May 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought they had been chased out of their own country and had been forced to the colonies to hide and regroup after Mary Shelly wrote her book and exposed all their secrets? They still used their knowledge of the supernatural to effect world chaos, but it didn't seem like they were this large international organization to me.

Posted above but I'll put it here too.

 

SAM: We wanted the book because that's where your power comes from. See, our family business is putting guys like you out of business.

ELDON: Oh. It's impressive. Let me tell you about my family business. You're in way over your heads. The family is vast . . . spread over the world. And that power that you mentioned doesn't come from the book. It comes from intelligence and will. The book facilitates. Stock market dive, recession, 9/11 . . . any of them ring a bell? Arab spring. Didn't even break a sweat.

SAM: Okay. Why?

ELDON: Well, you got to be in it to win it, boys. You see, chaos breeds fear. Fear breeds panic, and panic breeds desperation, and there's always profit to be made from desperation. You make a big enough mess, has to get cleaned up. And we've been in the fix-it business for 1,000 years, and business has never been better. (Sam’s phone starts vibrating. Cas is calling) Now, for the last 80 years, we haven't had the book. With the book, we're unstoppable.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I actually thought that too but where we didn't see anything on screen, decided not too. I could be wrong but weren't the only other humans he "executed" when he had the MoC.

I have zero issues with Dean threatening Lady ActualDeadEyes. I'm sure there was some vengeance swirling in Dean and Sam's minds but she was a proven and continuing threat given her alacrity with murderous blood spells. AFAIK, it doesn't require a specific kind of knife to do the spell she did that allowed her to choke out Mary. It seems to me all it took was her blood and reciting the incantation to make the spell work, so whilst Dean was smart to keep her in handcuffs, that didn't really remove the threat. All she had to do was cut her hand on something and start talking.

AS an aside, it really bothered me that Sam never got in Lady ActualDeadEyes face about her torturing him.  They could have had a moment that ties her being a threat with killer blood spells with him not overlooking nor forgetting that she tortured him (and Dean)

I mean come on, show!!  He could have at least said, "I didn't forget what you did to me, and my brother,  but because I am better than you , or at least trying to be,  I won't return the favor. And, unfortunately, right now, we all need to work together to get out of here.  But do not misunderstand me. If you cross us....if you make a move to do a blood spell, I will shoot you in the head...before you get the first word out. Got it? "  At least THREATEN HER in a material way, Sam!  Gah, I NEED the catharsis here, show!

Edited May 23, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

This is, in fact, war.  In the Supernatural world, the BMoL have declared war on the American Hunters.  They are the aggressors.  The BMoL have decided to exterminate all American Hunters.  There is no peaceful option and they have already taken out huge numbers.  So, "all peaceful means have failed.".

IMO it's more like a gangland war than a war between nation-states. It was even over turf.

Also, something that undermines the "no peaceful option" idea, IMO, is that the demons and the BMOL apparently found a peaceful way to coexist. They struck a long-term deal. And if demons can do it...

[Idahoforspn]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have zero issues with Dean threatening Lady ActualDeadEyes. I'm sure there was some vengeance swirling in Dean and Sam's minds but she was a proven and continuing threat given her alacrity with murderous blood spells. AFAIK, it doesn't require a specific kind of knife to do the spell she did that allowed her to choke out Mary. It seems to me all it took was her blood and reciting the incantation to make the spell work, so whilst Dean was smart to keep her in handcuffs, that didn't really remove the threat. All she had to do was cut her hand on something and start talking.

You won't get an argument from me on any of that. I did notice though that in this episode where they were killing humans, Jody killed Hess and Ketch killed torture lady. I think the Show didn't want us seeing either Sam or Dean killing a human woman even if they were horrible human beings. Then again, maybe I read to much into it :)

Quote

AS an aside, it really bothered me that Sam never got in Lady ActualDeadEyes face about her torturing him.  They could have had a moment that ties her being a threat with killer blood spells with him not overlooking nor forgetting that she tortured him (and Dean)

I mean come on, show!!  He could have at least said, "I didn't forget what you did to me, and my brother,  but because I am better than you , or at least trying to be,  I won't return the favor. And, unfortunately, right now, we all need to work together to get out of here.  But do not misunderstand me. If you cross us....if you make a move to do a blood spell, I will shoot you in the head...before you get the first word out. Got it? "  At least THREATEN HER in a material way, Sam!  Gah, I NEED the catharsis here, show!

Kind of par  for the course though. Sam never confronted Luci/Cas in any way. Just let him use Sam's room for his little hissy fit. I really cringed at the whole teenager vibe coming of Lucifer/Cas that episode. Not funny to me.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Idahoforspn
Spelling

[companionenvy]

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO it's more like a gangland war than a war between nation-states. It was even over turf.

Also, something that undermines the "no peaceful option" idea, IMO, is that the demons and the BMOL apparently found a peaceful way to coexist. They struck a long-term deal. And if demons can do it...

It was over turf to the extent that everything that happened transpired from the BMOL's desire to gain control over the American hunters, and the hunters' competing desire for autonomy. But calling it a "turf war" mischaracterizes the hunters' reason for going to war, which was that their people were being slaughtered.

Sometimes no deal is possible. The BMOL and the demons could make a deal only because both are entirely unscrupulous. What were the hunters supposed to say -- "we won't oppose you if you only kill x number of hunters per year"? There's really no compromise to be made with people who think killing hunters simply for refusing to work for them is in any way justifiable -- let alone people who will execute people for friendly fire incidents and "eliminate" innocent bystanders if it suits their purposes. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

Posted above but I'll put it here too.

 

SAM: We wanted the book because that's where your power comes from. See, our family business is putting guys like you out of business.

ELDON: Oh. It's impressive. Let me tell you about my family business. You're in way over your heads. The family is vast . . . spread over the world. And that power that you mentioned doesn't come from the book. It comes from intelligence and will. The book facilitates. Stock market dive, recession, 9/11 . . . any of them ring a bell? Arab spring. Didn't even break a sweat.

SAM: Okay. Why?

ELDON: Well, you got to be in it to win it, boys. You see, chaos breeds fear. Fear breeds panic, and panic breeds desperation, and there's always profit to be made from desperation. You make a big enough mess, has to get cleaned up. And we've been in the fix-it business for 1,000 years, and business has never been better. (Sam’s phone starts vibrating. Cas is calling) Now, for the last 80 years, we haven't had the book. With the book, we're unstoppable.

I saw it, I just figured my edit was response enough. Just because the villains think they're all powerful, doesn't mean they are. Which, to be fair, I don't think the Brits are as powerful as they think they are either, but I do think they outnumber the Stynes and are more organized based on what we saw. My impression of the Styes were they were the bullies on the school yard, but it was a pretty small school; the Brits seem to be bullies at a much larger school, IMO. 

Plus, the Stynes were never considered to be a long-term threat. I think the Brits are. Or, I think the MoL in general are going to be. And, now that they don't have Rowena to protect them against witches; Crowley to protect them from Hell; and Cass to protect them from Heaven, I expect Sam and Dean will need their hunter allies more than ever.

13 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Sometimes no deal is possible. The BMOL and the demons could make a deal only because both are entirely unscrupulous. What were the hunters supposed to say -- "we won't oppose you if you only kill x number of hunters per year"? There's really no compromise to be made with people who think killing hunters simply for refusing to work for them is in any way justifiable -- let alone people who will execute people for friendly fire incidents and "eliminate" innocent bystanders if it suits their purposes. 

Perhaps there was no compromise to be made and I personally have no problem with them taking the fight to the Brits, but the complaint isn't that they took out the Brits exactly, but that it didn't seem they considered all--or any, really--of the angles before they did it. For me, it ended up looking like the Brits hit them, so they hit back and didn't even consider any of the consequences. They simply reacted and figured whatever came next they'd be able to deal with. Which is generally what has gotten Sam and Dean into trouble in the past.

Edited May 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It was over turf to the extent that everything that happened transpired from the BMOL's desire to gain control over the American hunters, and the hunters' competing desire for autonomy. But calling it a "turf war" mischaracterizes the hunters' reason for going to war, which was that their people were being slaughtered.

Sometimes no deal is possible. The BMOL and the demons could make a deal only because both are entirely unscrupulous. What were the hunters supposed to say -- "we won't oppose you if you only kill x number of hunters per year"? There's really no compromise to be made with people who think killing hunters simply for refusing to work for them is in any way justifiable -- let alone people who will execute people for friendly fire incidents and "eliminate" innocent bystanders if it suits their purposes. 

+1

Nobody invited them into the country, and once they were there they, ostensibly at least tried, to recruit American hunters to their side (after shooting & torturing Sam and attempting to murder Dean outright). When they were refused, they took action, essentially as invaders on foreign soil. They started murdering human American citizens at their own discretion. That's justification enough for me right there (and I'm Canadian LOL!).

Edited May 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I saw it, I just figured my edit was response enough. Just because the villains think they're all powerful, doesn't mean they are.

I just went with what the show told us so I guess it's one of those agree to disagree things.

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Plus, the Stynes were never considered to be a long-term threat. I think the Brits are. Or, I think the MoL in general are going to be.

 IMO they are gone just like the Steins. Never to be seen again.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I just went with what the show told us so I guess it's one of those agree to disagree things.

I'm just going by what the show showed me not by what the bad guys tell me. Generally, the bad guys have much larger options of themselves than is truth. But we can definitely agree to disagree.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's justification enough for me right there (and I'm Canadian LOL!).

LOL

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Kind of par  for the course though. Sam never confronted Luci/Cas in any way. Just let him use Sam's room for his little hissy fit. I really cringed at the whole teenager vibe coming of Lucifer/Cas that episode. Not funny to me.

This pattern of Sam not confronting his enemies, not holding a grudge and even forgiving them is peculiar. Sam was justified in confronting Dean in s9 and by the end of s9, Sam sort of forgave Dean, which is understandable because Dean is his brother. No, he's not required to forgive his brother but it is his brother and his brother has forgiven him. So I kind of take that out of the equation.

But this stuff with Gadreel, who actually was the person that killed Kevin, with Sam calling him FRIEND was mystifying to me. Sam not confronting Lucifer in s11, and then being sent to save Lucifer, (remember it wasn't said that he was going to save Cas. GRRR and I don't think I'm being nitpicky on that point).  And now with Lady ActualDeadEyes is mystifying. It's not just occasional, it's a pattern. I don't think it really is the case, but I do ponder it from time to time, if the show is trying to show Sam as Christ-like with this  "Turn the other cheek" thing? I dunno, it's weird.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This pattern of Sam not confronting his enemies, not holding a grudge and even forgiving them is peculiar. Sam was justified in confronting Dean in s9 and by the end of s9, Sam sort of forgave Dean, which is understandable because Dean is his brother. No, he's not required to forgive his brother but it is his brother and his brother has forgiven him. So I kind of take that out of the equation.

But this stuff with Gadreel, who actually was the person that killed Kevin, with Sam calling him FRIEND was mystifying to me. Sam not confronting Lucifer in s11, and then being sent to save Lucifer, (remember it wasn't said that he was going to save Cas. GRRR and I don't think I'm being nitpicky on that point).  And now with Lady ActualDeadEyes is mystifying. It's not just occasional, it's a pattern. I don't think it really is the case, but I do ponder it from time to time, if the show is trying to show Sam as Christ-like with this  "Turn the other cheek" thing? I dunno, it's weird.

All those things were inexplicable to me too. Sam calling Gadreel Dean's friend shocked me. There was no foundation for that statement. It should have been talked about as more like working with Crowley. You do it when you have to.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

It was over turf to the extent that everything that happened transpired from the BMOL's desire to gain control over the American hunters, and the hunters' competing desire for autonomy. But calling it a "turf war" mischaracterizes the hunters' reason for going to war, which was that their people were being slaughtered.

Sometimes no deal is possible. The BMOL and the demons could make a deal only because both are entirely unscrupulous. What were the hunters supposed to say -- "we won't oppose you if you only kill x number of hunters per year"? There's really no compromise to be made with people who think killing hunters simply for refusing to work for them is in any way justifiable -- let alone people who will execute people for friendly fire incidents and "eliminate" innocent bystanders if it suits their purposes. 

No deal may be possible, but massacring a bunch of people and expecting that to be the end of it is also not sure to succeed. That could very easily result in escalation rather than peace. Look at the wars between rival gangs or mafia families or cartels -- they escalate in just the same way, to the detriment of everyone.

IMO the BMOL generally operate more like a cartel than like a nation state anyway. Including how they shore up power, how they attempt to gather/control territory, their power structure, etc. And IMO that makes sense, because, like the drug business, the supernatural is an underworld that operates on a large scale and by its own rules, "beneath" mainstream, straight life.

The BMOL isn't England-the-nation, and the American hunters aren't America-the nation -- IMO these are two rival groups of hunters, who live/operate in an underworld and who are now making a gangland-style war on each other over who will control the American hunting turf. Makes me think of the Godfather or the Wire, if nothing else.

Personally, I think that's fine. Nobody ever said hunting wasn't grimy.

Maybe not the vibe the show was going for, however!

Edited May 23, 2017 by rue721

[companionenvy]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

No deal may be possible, but massacring a bunch of people and expecting that to be the end of it is also not sure to succeed. That could very easily result in escalation rather than peace. Look at the wars between rival gangs or cartels -- they escalate in just the same way, to the detriment of everyone.

Quite possibly (I think this is the end of the BMOL for the purposes of the story, but you are right that this would realistically bring reprisals), but since the BMOL had already adopted a policy of killing all American hunters, I'm not sure what they had to lose. It doesn't get much worse than what the BMOL were already doing.

[Idahoforspn]

Didn't Dabb say they were wrapping up the BMoL storyline? Unsure here.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Didn't Dabb say they were wrapping up the BMoL storyline? Unsure here.

The voice on the laptop, presumably one of the "Old Men" told Hess they didn't have the resources (currently?) to open a portal for her. Since she is seemingly one of the big cheeses, you'd think they would've extracted her if they could. Maybe their numbers aren't so great, maybe all the braintrust capable of opening the portal were already there in the US. In any case, they seemed to have washed their hands of it - I don't anticipate hearing about them again any time soon.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The voice on the laptop, presumably one of the "Old Men" told Hess they didn't have the resources (currently?) to open a portal for her. Since she is seemingly one of the big cheeses, you'd think they would've extracted her if they could. Maybe their numbers aren't so great, maybe all the braintrust capable of opening the portal were already there in the US. In any case, they seemed to have washed their hands of it - I don't anticipate hearing about them again any time soon.

+1

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The voice on the laptop, presumably one of the "Old Men" told Hess they didn't have the resources (currently?) to open a portal for her. Since she is seemingly one of the big cheeses, you'd think they would've extracted her if they could. Maybe their numbers aren't so great, maybe all the braintrust capable of opening the portal were already there in the US. In any case, they seemed to have washed their hands of it - I don't anticipate hearing about them again any time soon.

 

I want to know where that portal went, the AU we saw or some other universe? Why OPEN A PORTAL to get out of America?

Oh gods. Now I have another Xover I want with Torchwood:

Crowley got his hands on Captain Jack Harkness' Vortex Manipulator that was last seen with UNIT and he gave it to the BMOL and then Jack Harkness meets Crowley who is so charmed by Captain Jack that he gets it back and Captain Jack comes through a portal to claim "Jack" is really his son from his time with Alt!Castiel in the AU thus explaining why his name is Jack and why he kind of looks a lot like Misha Collins! 

Leave me alone. I will have John Barrowman on Supernatural in some way, shape, or form dammit!

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The voice on the laptop, presumably one of the "Old Men" told Hess they didn't have the resources (currently?) to open a portal for her. Since she is seemingly one of the big cheeses, you'd think they would've extracted her if they could. Maybe their numbers aren't so great, maybe all the braintrust capable of opening the portal were already there in the US. In any case, they seemed to have washed their hands of it - I don't anticipate hearing about them again any time soon.

Or maybe they're numbers were so great they figured they could sacrifice these few and it was no big deal?

[Idahoforspn]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or maybe they're numbers were so great they figured they could sacrifice these few and it was no big deal?

Personally I  go with what the show shows or tells me but to each his own. The show told me they didn't have the resources so until they retcon that one :)

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Personally I  go with what the show shows or tells me but to each his own. The show told me they didn't have the resources so until they retcon that one :)

To each his own. Personally, I think you have to factor in who is talking, the situation and what it is they're saying. If I took every line in the show as truth, Dean would be a born killer and Sam would be a monster.

My interpretation of what the "Old Man" was saying was that he wasn't willing to devote resources to saving Hess, not necessarily that they couldn't have saved her if they so desired.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To each his own.

And I respect that you view some things differently than I do. We're good.

[Idahoforspn]

Did you see Jensen's solo panel part 2 where he said Berens didn't have a clue how defining the Mary scene was for Dean's character? Really scary that when these writers give us the amazing stuff, its by accident. We have known for a long time that Jensen often takes what he is given and turns it into Emmy worthy stuff. The other example that comes to mind is how he changed the delivery for the scene with God. 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Did you see Jensen's solo panel part 2 where he said Berens didn't have a clue how defining the Mary scene was for Dean's character? Really scary that when these writers give us the amazing stuff, its by accident. We have known for a long time that Jensen often takes what he is given and turns it into Emmy worthy stuff. The other example that comes to mind is how he changed the delivery for the scene with God. 

I posted it in the SuperNormal thread if anyone wants to see it.

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To each his own. Personally, I think you have to factor in who is talking, the situation and what it is they're saying. If I took every line in the show as truth, Dean would be a born killer and Sam would be a monster.

My interpretation of what the "Old Man" was saying was that he wasn't willing to devote resources to saving Hess, not necessarily that they couldn't have saved her if they so desired.

But Hess was the head of Not!Hogwarts, presumably pretty high up the pecking order, so if not her, then who?

[Bessie]

21 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Did you see Jensen's solo panel part 2 where he said Berens didn't have a clue how defining the Mary scene was for Dean's character? Really scary that when these writers give us the amazing stuff, its by accident. We have known for a long time that Jensen often takes what he is given and turns it into Emmy worthy stuff. The other example that comes to mind is how he changed the delivery for the scene with God. 

I know you're illustrating Ackles acting ability, but, for me, him calling out a writer as clueless is unprofessional and doesn't sound like something he would do. Maybe it was the booze lowering his normal inhibitions.