Criminal Minds Analysis: Profile The Show

[BookWoman56]

interesting point of view, I disagree with some of your arguments, but I respect your point of view, of course.

however, I want to add something because I guess I'm biased after all. I think Hotch relied on Haley to care of their child, that made him took her for granted and he deserved being called off, but if you don't like someone's job you don't have children with them either, that works both ways, I think is disgusting she used him as sperm donor and then she decided he was toxic for her child. 

I agree about his involvement as a parent, he's done better, but I think it's because  he can focus only on Jack  and Jack's age, Jack is a young boy now, it would be interesting if he stopped admiring Hotch blindly and he questioned his father priorities. 

I never got the impression that Haley used Hotch as a sperm donor at all. It was very clear they loved each other at the time Jack was born, so it's not like she was just looking for some random person to be a baby daddy. Nor do I think she regarded Hotch as toxic to Jack; for him to be toxic, he would have had to actually be around. There were a few hints dropped that Hotch's father had been a toxic parent, but when Hotch actually did interact with Jack, he didn't seem toxic. Absentee parent, yes. But any relationship is going to be dynamic, rather than static and remaining exactly the same as it was in the beginning. People change; relationships change; sometimes they change in the same direction and sometimes they diverge.

 

Eh...I can see Haley's side of the argument. Hotch consistently placed his job over his family. He was perfectly willing to let Haley walk out of his life rather than get a job within the FBI that allowed for better family time. What happened between them is certainly not uncommon in these type of career fields. 

Exactly. I'm not a fan of traditional marriage and am instead a proponent of polyamory. But for polyamorous relationships to work, you have to make each person feel valued and of more or less equal priority. Hotch was essentially married to his job, and so his job became in effect his spouse,  but he failed to make his other spouse feel that she was valued at the same level. It seems as if Haley and Hotch started with a traditional marriage that evolved into a three-way, with Haley being relegated to a secondary role. It's that sort of dynamic that causes many marriages in this type of career to crash and burn, because many people don't want to feel undervalued or under-appreciated, or that they take second place to a job. I don't think the end of the marriage means that either of them was a bad person, just that their needs and wants changed over time and the marriage was no longer meeting those needs/wants.

[smoker]

I never got the impression that Haley used Hotch as a sperm donor at all. It was very clear they loved each other at the time Jack was born, so it's not like she was just looking for some random person to be a baby daddy. Nor do I think she regarded Hotch as toxic to Jack; for him to be toxic, he would have had to actually be around. There were a few hints dropped that Hotch's father had been a toxic parent, but when Hotch actually did interact with Jack, he didn't seem toxic. Absentee parent, yes. But any relationship is going to be dynamic, rather than static and remaining exactly the same as it was in the beginning. People change; relationships change; sometimes they change in the same direction and sometimes they diverge.

 

Exactly. I'm not a fan of traditional marriage and am instead a proponent of polyamory. But for polyamorous relationships to work, you have to make each person feel valued and of more or less equal priority. Hotch was essentially married to his job, and so his job became in effect his spouse,  but he failed to make his other spouse feel that she was valued at the same level. It seems as if Haley and Hotch started with a traditional marriage that evolved into a three-way, with Haley being relegated to a secondary role. It's that sort of dynamic that causes many marriages in this type of career to crash and burn, because many people don't want to feel undervalued or under-appreciated, or that they take second place to a job. I don't think the end of the marriage means that either of them was a bad person, just that their needs and wants changed over time and the marriage was no longer meeting those needs/wants.

 

yes!! and there is nothing wrong with changing your mind about what you want and makes you happy. My last argument was more radical because I think this was unfair:

 

"if he knew he was so committed to the job that he was going to be an absentee father, then why did he even bother to become a parent? Hotch's commitment to his job, although admirable in terms of the needs of society to catch serial killers, etc., meant that on a personal level, he was asking Haley to be both parents to Jack."

 

I think he wanted a child with the person he loved, the same as Haley or anyone, and many people nowadays barely have time for their children. And  Haley was doing most of the job with Jack because she was staying at home with the baby/child, that was what she wanted or their agreement. I couldn't do that by the way, being content just being a mom all the time, it's a team work, basically because if you want to work and raise a child you can't do it alone, and I can understand why she felt as something secondary, I think she made that to herself more than Hotch, even if his attitude didn't help a bit. Do I think Hotch was absent beyond acceptable? Absolutely, but it takes a lot of synchrony keep alive a realtionship and they didn't have it anymore.

Edited March 3, 2016 by smoker

[Cobalt Stargazer]

This whole conversation is making me wonder what Beth made of Hotch's professional dedication. If you contrast the relationships - the fraught one he eventually had with Haley and the more light-hearted one with Beth - it's like talking about two totally different guys, and yet in the end neither relationship "stuck", so to speak. IMO there were/are ways that Hotch's upbringing led him to expect a certain kind of marriage, that even if his father did, as I suspect, knock him around while his mother did nothing to prevent it, he still did what his Dad wanted and became a lawyer, so its likely that he loved and respected him despite the implied abuse. Not that I think Aaron would ever hit Jack, or that he ever struck Haley either, but I think it definitely might have affected the way he viewed marriage; that the man is supposed to go out and make the money and have a career while the woman stays home and takes care of the children. When Haley suddenly decided hat she no longer wanted that, he didn't know what to do about it, but as smoker said, he probably got tired of her being either at him or on him every time he was around. There comes a point where you just don't want to fight anymore because it's hurting both of you, and worse it's hurting the kid, who is an innocent party caught in the middle.

 

What's worth noting is that Haley didn't seem to work, since it isn't until she and Hotch have separated, when she and Jack need to go into protective custody, that she tells Aaron, "Jack has school. I have a job now. What should I do?" He's laying there in a hospital bed and she's whinging* because she has a job now, as if she didn't have one in the years before. Granted, there are women who are SAHMs and then go into the workforce when the kid goes off to school or whatever. My mom did it, and I'm not knocking it because she loved her job. But if Haley wasn't employed when she and Aaron were living in the same house, before Jack was born, then it wasn't as if she was literally getting nothing out of being Mrs. Hotchner. Was there ever any mention of if they had paid help, to assist Haley while she was at home with Jack?

 

*I saw it as whinging anyway, because Aaron had just had George Foyet playing Operation with him, so it isn't as if he hadn't just had one fuck of a bad day.

[ForeverAlone]

I think Haley's issue was not so much that she needed help with Jack around the house, but that Hotch was not home enough and he placed his job above his family. She didn't want him to quit the FBI per say, but she wanted him to work in a division that allowed for more family friendly hours with little to no travel. She wanted Hotch to place his family first, and he just refused to do it. The real BAU has similar problems with maintaining marriages. You also see the same thing in career fields like the military where service members deploy a lot. 

[JMO]

I was under the impression that Haley was not working outside of the home while Jack was an infant and toddler, but I don’t know that anything was ever expressly stated.  With her husband away so much, and mostly without warning, it would have been difficult to do so, without the support of family, friends, or a live-in nanny. 

 

But Jack got older, and they separated (was the divorce ever finalized?), and one household became two, and expenses rose, and she got a job.  I’m not at all surprised it came up in her conversation with Hotch at the hospital, because it was a responsibility she carried, and she didn't want to shirk it.  Having to leave it suddenly, without notice, obviously put that job in jeopardy, and possibly future employments as well.  No one wants ‘disappeared’ written into a reference. 

 

Mostly, I think the story of Hotch and Haley gets played out all over the world, all the time.  It’s not that one is ‘right’ and the other ‘wrong’, or one ‘good’ and the other ‘bad’.  They’re just ‘different’.  They came together too young to know if they would grow in the same direction or not.  Some couples do, and some don’t.  I wouldn't feel the need to assign blame about it.

[smoker]

I know doctors who are working almost all day, between practice, teaching and research. A friend of mine says she doesn't want to be with someone that way, we are very independent, but she doesn't see the point of being with someone like that while I think I could make it work without a problem, I feel uncomfortable with people who demands big amounts of time just for the pleasure of sharing the same space. I don't want to sound rude, and I love spend time with my partner, it's just I feel suffocated with guys who "can't live without you", even couples who look like Siamese twins make me nervous. All the "you complete me" makes me gag, so my empathy in this case is due to that and not because I'm a fan of Hotch. As I said before, I think they were just standing up for their happiness. Sadly, it couldn't be together.

 

to be clear, I hate Will (for so many reasons hahaha) in season 7, being a pain when he knew what JJ did for a living when he met her.

Edited March 3, 2016 by smoker

[Danielg342]

to be clear, I hate Will (for so many reasons hahaha) in season 7, being a pain when he knew what JJ did for a living when he met her.

To be fair, she was a liaison not "kickass Barbie field agent" when he met her... other than that, I do agree with you.

[tobeyoungagain]

Yeah ... and it seems like she still makes Henry a priority ... he just wants her to be safe.  Understandable considering how she lost the baby because of her job and how she was tortured.

 

What happened with Hotch and Beth??  WHy didn't that work?

To be fair, she was a liaison not "kickass Barbie field agent" when he met her... other than that, I do agree with you.

[ForeverAlone]

The REAL, real reason Hotch and Beth likely didn't work is that the actress who played her, Bellamy Young, got a part on a little show called Scandal midway through season seven (Beth's debut season). So the writers had Beth move to NYC at the start of season eight for a job, so they could continue their romance essentially off screen. Erica was able to work with ABC to get Bellamy to guest a couple times in season eight, but Scandal took off so much, that it wasn't really possible later. I think their entire relationship was conducted off screen in season nine, but then in season 10, Hotch told Rossi that he and Beth broke up, because she took a job in Hong Kong. If Bellamy hadn't scored her sweet Scandal gig, chances are Hotch and Beth would still be together. 

 

As for Will and JJ in season seven, their entire story is contradicted by that horrible retcon known as 200. Will was upset about JJ being back at the BAU, because as he said on more than one occasion in season seven, he liked that she worked regular hours with no travel when she was at the Pentagon during season six (because you know, that was the reason given for her transfer out of the BAU). Of course 200 took it all back and tried to make her some badass field agent who didn't even tell her husband she was pregnant or subsequently miscarried. So...that story has substantial holes in it. 

[smoker]

To be fair, she was a liaison not "kickass Barbie field agent" when he met her... other than that, I do agree with you.

 

sorry, you are right! I was only thinking in her schedule hehe

 

 

Yeah ... and it seems like she still makes Henry a priority ... he just wants her to be safe.  Understandable considering how she lost the baby because of her job and how she was tortured.

 

What happened with Hotch and Beth??  WHy didn't that work?

 

well, I wouldn't have gone pregnant to a warzone, it was her own fault, at least she didn't know she was pregnant at the time and why wasn't she more careful (preventing a pregnancy) while she had to travel there?

 

About Beth, ForeverAlone has expleined it pretty well. Moreover, I do agree with this too:

 

As for Will and JJ in season seven, their entire story is contradicted by that horrible retcon known as 200. Will was upset about JJ being back at the BAU, because as he said on more than one occasion in season seven, he liked that she worked regular hours with no travel when she was at the Pentagon during season six (because you know, that was the reason given for her transfer out of the BAU). Of course 200 took it all back and tried to make her some badass field agent who didn't even tell her husband she was pregnant or subsequently miscarried. So...that story has substantial holes in it. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by smoker

[ForeverAlone]

Don't get me started on the ridiculousness of JJ being pregnant in a combat zone. Yes, it certainly has happened where women get pregnant in a combat zone or on leave. Of course if the show was doing any sort of realism for deployment, she would have received some pre deployment training, equipment, mission orders and likely a pregnancy test before deploying. But yes, women still get pregnant while deployed, and when they find out, they are sent home shortly after that. They are NOT sent on combat missions. JJ and her boss knew that she was pregnant, so it was ridiculous as all get out that she was on that mission. But in my cynical mind, the only reason the writers had JJ pregnant and miscarry, was to generate sympathy for JJ. But I just roll my eyes at that story, and her subsequent mention of it during The Forever People. 

[JMO]

As I understood it from the episode, she found out she was pregnant while she was in Afghanistan, just before she disclosed it to Cruz.  Immediately afterward, they left for their planned  interrogation.  I suppose they could have canceled the whole thing, but it wouldn't have gotten her out of Afghanistan any more quickly.  

 

There were a lot of things to criticize about (the awful) 200, but I've never seen the handling of JJ's pregnancy news as one of them.

[ForeverAlone]

But it really is, though. Pregnant women aren't allowed to go on combat missions in combat zones. They are promptly sent home once they discover they are pregnant (and aren't allowed to deploy if they know beforehand). So while she wouldn't have left Afghanistan earlier (it likely would have taken a day or two for her to get a flight out), she should NOT have been on that mission. They didn't have to cancel the entire mission. It's just that someone else should have gone in her place. 

[SSAHotchner]

While we don't know for sure that Haley had an affair, it was heavily implied in  season three "In Name and Blood" when Haley and Hotch were fighting and I believe the house phone rang and they didn't pick it up or Hotch picked it up and nobody said anything (it was one of the two), And then like a minute later, Haley's cell phone rang. It was never addressed or anything specifically, but it was just sort of left hanging. 

Yes, that was it. And the look on Hotch's face when her cell phone rang immediately after the caller hung up on the land line was very telling. 

[smoker]

This whole conversation is making me wonder what Beth made of Hotch's professional dedication. If you contrast the relationships - the fraught one he eventually had with Haley and the more light-hearted one with Beth - it's like talking about two totally different guys, and yet in the end neither relationship "stuck", so to speak. IMO there were/are ways that Hotch's upbringing led him to expect a certain kind of marriage, that even if his father did, as I suspect, knock him around while his mother did nothing to prevent it, he still did what his Dad wanted and became a lawyer, so its likely that he loved and respected him despite the implied abuse. Not that I think Aaron would ever hit Jack, or that he ever struck Haley either, but I think it definitely might have affected the way he viewed marriage; that the man is supposed to go out and make the money and have a career while the woman stays home and takes care of the children. When Haley suddenly decided hat she no longer wanted that, he didn't know what to do about it, but as smoker said, he probably got tired of her being either at him or on him every time he was around. There comes a point where you just don't want to fight anymore because it's hurting both of you, and worse it's hurting the kid, who is an innocent party caught in the middle.

 

What's worth noting is that Haley didn't seem to work, since it isn't until she and Hotch have separated, when she and Jack need to go into protective custody, that she tells Aaron, "Jack has school. I have a job now. What should I do?" He's laying there in a hospital bed and she's whinging* because she has a job now, as if she didn't have one in the years before. Granted, there are women who are SAHMs and then go into the workforce when the kid goes off to school or whatever. My mom did it, and I'm not knocking it because she loved her job. But if Haley wasn't employed when she and Aaron were living in the same house, before Jack was born, then it wasn't as if she was literally getting nothing out of being Mrs. Hotchner. Was there ever any mention of if they had paid help, to assist Haley while she was at home with Jack?

 

*I saw it as whinging anyway, because Aaron had just had George Foyet playing Operation with him, so it isn't as if he hadn't just had one fuck of a bad day.

 

before season 8 I was craving for more intel on Hotch's past, I let slide their contradictory background between season 1 and 2, but after season 8... I hate what they did to Sean (and Hotch) and how they did it. My point is, I think his past affected him too, but I don't think it had to do with their roles as a couple, although, he obviously didn't know how to work things out with Haley.

We don't have many details and I am afraid if I start to put my thoughts together about the mythology of their relationship I'll have to finish this post in the fanfic section xP

For example: I always have thought Hotch (in his mind) never let Haley get off the stage where he saw her for first time. The fact she was actually a nice person, she had a happy family (I presume) plus falling in love, made him believe their life together would be wonderful (like Haley's parents) and they would go through anything together. I don't know if this makes sense, but they remind me of Niles and Dafne when Dafne reclaims her right to be imperfect and they make up things in a very steamy way. I am crazy, I know hahaha

Edited March 4, 2016 by smoker

[smoker]

Yes, that was it. And the look on Hotch's face when her cell phone rang immediately after the caller hung up on the land line was very telling. 

 

yes, it was. I've always thought he stopped feeling guilty in that second. And their argument later, when he told her she shouldn't raise her voice... Haley's face was priceless!

[Danielg342]

It's "Daphne", by the way, smoker.

 

Maybe the only thing I would have appreciated regarding the first Hotchner marriage is that we didn't get enough of Haley's perspective- we were stuck with Hotch's, for the most part. Which I guess is okay- Hotch is a main character, after all- but it did make the story a little too one-sided.

 

As for Beth Clemmons...I'm not sure whose idea it was to get Bellamy Young on the show, but she had virtually no chemistry with Hotch, or Jack for that matter. Young is so much better on Scandal...maybe because she actually gets things to do except be dough-eyed like she was on CM. Sometimes I wonder if things were different if Beth would still be on this show, but, somehow I doubt it. Pretty sure this show's love affair with putting team members through angst would catch up to Beth like it has for Maeve and Savannah, plus I think Hotch works so much better now as a single guy.

 

Of course, then again...is anyone on the writing staff aware that Sam exists? I don't think Garcia broke up with the guy but we haven't seen him since "Mr. and Mrs. Anderson" and that was two years ago or heard from him since "Burn".

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Yeah ... and it seems like she still makes Henry a priority ... he just wants her to be safe.  Understandable considering how she lost the baby because of her job and how she was tortured.

 

Well.....

 

In Run, JJ told Rossi that she was a mother before she was an agent, that she and Will made an agreement that they would never leave Henry alone without either of them, but then Will got shot and she was blaming herself because she was out in the field instead of with her son. Despite that, although Will has been annoyed in the past to see her going off to work while, presumably, he takes care of the kid, I don't think he's ever issued an ultimatum to her that she has to either take a desk job or cut way back on her hours, a la Haley with Hotch. Do we even know what his reaction to the miscarriage was? Because that baby was planned, I believe, and she lost it because she went out on a mission that she knew was dangerous, and sure enough the worst happened. But Will has never said "If you don't change jobs, I'm going to divorce you and sue for custody of our son, because you're never home." Creepster or not, he hasn't said he'll leave her if she doesn't become a desk jockey. And that's probably the nicest thing I'll ever say about him.

[ForeverAlone]

 Will never knew about JJ's pregnancy that resulted in a miscarriage until after her big torture fest. While we never saw her telling him or his reaction, I can't imagine it would have been all that good. Though obviously it didn't damage their marriage in any way. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[Guesswht]

JJ not having a pregnancy storyline in season 10 breaks my heart. Some people are like "JJ had another kid?i didn't even know.When?Why?How?" I can't imagine how heartbreaking it is for AJ to read this.

 

When AJ was pregnant for the first time she looked soft & pregnant, she gained a little weight - she looked healthy. She was so beautiful and lovely & cute. With her second pregnancy she wasn't allowed to gain any weight , she had to do stunts while she was 5-6 months pregnant which is incredibly sad since her baby is a true miracle(...) but it's like no one cared about her & her baby's health. She's so tiny, I can't imagine the pressure to possibly try to not appear as pregnant as she was. It would've been so much easier for her if her pregnancy was written into the show.  

 

JJ being pregnant in season 10 would've been PERFECT. it would've been such a beautiful storyline after her heartbreaking miscarriage/PTSD storyline. It hurts so much it was wasted on Kate. I feel like Kate and jlh got everything without giving anything. CM lost millions of viewers because of her and jlh never NEVER promoted CM while she was on the show. She went on talk shows and talked about herself. When there's a JJ centric episode (one every 5 years) AJ is all over promoting the show, she's promoting the whole CM family, she's never talking about herself. I feel like she gives everything and gets nothing in return.

 

i think s10 would've been pretty amazing if jlh never put herself on the show. Think about it: Reid would've had a storyline at the beginning of s10 .. he was shot in the neck in the finale + he just lost another important person in his life.

JJ had 1 episode long PTSD. How ridiculous is that? She had PTSD in 10x11 & was back to normal the next episode.. wasting kate callahan's screen time?-who does she think she is?

The whole 10th season was about kate...even the season finale was handed to her while at the time when 10x23 aired it wasn't sure the show gets renewed + it wasn't sure that Shemar was coming back. ..and AJ was missing from the first half of s11, i really wish she had a storyline at the end of s10

The whole 10th season makes me sick. if kate callahan is coming back in s12..i'm out.

 

Sorry for being so negative but this thread is called "vents and rants" so here i am complaining. I feel like some characters/actors are being treated terribly unfairly.

[ForeverAlone]

Do you honestly think that the producers (and a female showrunner) asked AJ not to gain pregnancy weight? Seriously? They didn't have to write in AJ's pregnancy, but they chose to do so anyway. There was no way JJ was going to look super pregnant on the show, because they finished filming season 10 before she got really big. She still had months to go on her pregnancy. Jennifer became pregnant first, so it is not surprising that they chose to write in her pregnancy first. 

 

As for season 10 Reid story, the fact that the show didn't have anything for him, is likely because we think the writers wanted to revisit the Reid addiction story and Matthew nixed that. That had nothing to do with Jennifer, but rather the writers unable or unwilling to come up with a good Reid story that didn't involve retreaded territory. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[Cobalt Stargazer]

When AJ was pregnant for the first time she looked soft & pregnant, she gained a little weight - she looked healthy. She was so beautiful and lovely & cute. With her second pregnancy she wasn't allowed to gain any weight , she had to do stunts while she was 5-6 months pregnant which is incredibly sad since her baby is a true miracle(...) but it's like no one cared about her & her baby's health. She's so tiny, I can't imagine the pressure to possibly try to not appear as pregnant as she was. It would've been so much easier for her if her pregnancy was written into the show.  

 

JJ being pregnant in season 10 would've been PERFECT. it would've been such a beautiful storyline after her heartbreaking miscarriage/PTSD storyline. It hurts so much it was wasted on Kate. I feel like Kate and jlh got everything without giving anything. CM lost millions of viewers because of her and jlh never NEVER promoted CM while she was on the show. She went on talk shows and talked about herself. When there's a JJ centric episode (one every 5 years) AJ is all over promoting the show, she's promoting the whole CM family, she's never talking about herself. I feel like she gives everything and gets nothing in return.

 

Due respect, but I very most sincerely truly doubt that AJ was told not to gain weight during her second pregnancy, and I cannot imagine where you got that impression or information. Whatever I do or don't think of how CBS treats their actresses,I think someone would have said something if she was being mistreated at that level. At the least, Erica would have made a stink. She's been too attached to the actress - and the character, and I'll get to that in a tick - not to.

 

As for "wasting" the season on Kate/JLH, Messer actually wanted to work with Hewitt, or so I've heard. Unlike Jeanne Tripplehorn, who got the shit end of the stick from the writers and from the fans who hated her because she had the nerve to not be Paget. I don't know what exactly Jennifer did to offend you so terribly that you resent her very existence on the show, but it must have been a doozy because she wasn't the one they gave that craptastic, insulting, they-said-we-were-done-with-this barf-fest known as The Forever People. That was all about JJ, and it went pretty much nowhere. They also had Garcia go wibbling down to Texas so she could hold the hand of the guy who would have murdered her and Reid, and Morgan having to show up at the end to pat her on the head because she can't make a move without her Chocolate Thunder's approval. I would rather have watched Kate doing pretty much anything than be subjected to Janine's screed against the death penalty, particularly since Spencer was one of the would-be victims. Not that the way they treated him in The Forever People was any better, since he comes off as if he never experienced grown-up emotions before, but Burn was just as awful, only in a different way. Neither of those things have to do with Jennifer Love Hewitt, who I like a little more every time I see her being trashed just because she took a job and tried to do that job.

[Guesswht]

 

Due respect, but I very most sincerely truly doubt that AJ was told not to gain weight during her second pregnancy, and I cannot imagine where you got that impression or information. Whatever I do or don't think of how CBS treats their actresses,I think someone would have said something if she was being mistreated at that level. At the least, Erica would have made a stink. She's been too attached to the actress - and the character, and I'll get to that in a tick - not to.

 

As for "wasting" the season on Kate/JLH, Messer actually wanted to work with Hewitt, or so I've heard. Unlike Jeanne Tripplehorn, who got the shit end of the stick from the writers and from the fans who hated her because she had the nerve to not be Paget. I don't know what exactly Jennifer did to offend you so terribly that you resent her very existence on the show, but it must have been a doozy because she wasn't the one they gave that craptastic, insulting, they-said-we-were-done-with-this barf-fest known as The Forever People. That was all about JJ, and it went pretty much nowhere. They also had Garcia go wibbling down to Texas so she could hold the hand of the guy who would have murdered her and Reid, and Morgan having to show up at the end to pat her on the head because she can't make a move without her Chocolate Thunder's approval. I would rather have watched Kate doing pretty much anything than be subjected to Janine's screed against the death penalty, particularly since Spencer was one of the would-be victims. Not that the way they treated him in The Forever People was any better, since he comes off as if he never experienced grown-up emotions before, but Burn was just as awful, only in a different way. Neither of those things have to do with Jennifer Love Hewitt, who I like a little more every time I see her being trashed just because she took a job and tried to do that job.

Well, i really,really hope she wasn't told not to gain weight. But she obviously felt the pressure to stay thin even if no one told her anything that made her feel bad about herself. Think about it : she knew they couldn't write her pregnancy in - since another character on the show was pregnant already (Erica Messer said it would've been "over the top" if the 2 characters were pregnant at the same time) so she knew that she had to stay thin because her character JJ wasn't pregnant :(

 

I loved Jeanne and Alex Blake. She was treated like dirt by pretty much everyone (writers, the showrunner, FANS). There's nothing more disheartening than being made to feel like you're not wanted around. Everytime she was on screen i got the feeling she's not confident enough with herself.. like she was thinking "Am i not good enough to be here" if she really felt this way ... my heart is broken for her. She was more than good, the hatred she got from Prentiss  "fans" was completely undeserved.

 

omg JJ had ONE EPISODE centered around her in s10. Shame on her, really.

 

""Neither of those things have to do with jlh, who I like a little more every time I see her being trashed just because she took a job and tried to do that job.""

well, this is just wrong (in my opinion). I remember you writing something like you don't like JJ because of her fans...??? i don't understand your logic. JJ fans are nice anyway... you should see the "article" that was written by 1 jlh fan.. the title says "JLH brings CM back to its former glory" (sickening) The person who wrote this bs trashed Jeanne with the worst, most heart-wrenching things ever seen. But why? jlh put herself on the show after Jeanne left. The (few :( ..) people who loved Jeanne had all the right in the world to be angry at jlh..but no they weren't angry. jlh fans were angry at Jeanne (why?-we'll never know). jlh fans are trashing everyone (-AJ,Aisha,Jeanne,Paget,Kirsten,Shemar....)

[thewhiteowl]

Bashing fans will get you banned. Any of you. Respect each other's right to have an opinion, even if you disagree and move on. Thanks!

[tobeyoungagain]

I think this is a very adult and logical opinion but unfortunately kids are kids and they make dumb choices (that seem right at the moment) and/or they don't always think.  When you're young, you think you're invincible or that "it can't possibly happen to me".  So I can actually believe the two girls doing something like going off with a stranger.  What I don't believe is Meg profiling and outsmarting the kidnappers.

 

Jen, (may I call you Jen?) I'm so sorry you went through that. Some people are just so despicable to attack others like that.

 

And Virgil whining that this is the thanks he gets? Ugh, he's doing his JOB. He's not writing stories out of the goodness of his heart as a favor to the fans. He's doing it to collect a paycheck. He's not putting his life on the line and risking being killed like cops, firemen, military, etc... And he thinks the fans owe him some sort of gratitude? If he hadn't written the episode, someone else would. I'm sure there are plenty of starving writers out there who would gladly take his place. Hell, there are fanfiction writers who have come up with better stories than his last one. From what I understand, his episode had the absolute lowest ratings of the entire season. He may try to blame it on other things, but it seems like his episode just wasn't that good-- and I've seen worse episodes, but his attitude and response to the fans just makes me like the episode less.

 

As for Meg, I am sick to death of stupid teens being portrayed on TV. Yeah, I get that Meg thought it sounded odd, but she should have had the stones to say to her friend "Listen to me, this doesn't feel right, lets just go".

I may have skipped the post but I don't see where anyone attacked other posters ... I just am hearing disagreement which is fine...

Definitely agree Zannej. When you have fans attacking the people who disagree with them to make them be quiet and go away, it makes other fans feel like they should be quiet too. Then it's down to one fanatic talking to herself and her aliases because no one else is there.

[tobeyoungagain]

I think in the world today where pretty much everything is in the wires and everyone is tied to technology, Garcia would be considered a "genius" or at least very special.  Having hacking and coding skills is very handy and irreplaceable. 

 

I agree with everything you've said,but as a huge Reid fan what pissed me off and what I found to be the most offensive was some where along the line they decided they Garcia was also a genius.That is sure not the way it was in the beginning. Yes it was established that she was brilliant and highly intelligent when it came to computers,but to me that isn't necessarily the same as being an outright genius.The question that should be asked is: Would Garcia be able to solve a rather complex problem without help from a computer? I seriously doubt it,but we certainly know that Reid can. Therefore she has no damn business being touted as a genius of the same caliber that he is. To me this is just more of MESSer's attempt to make Reid as irrelevant as possible.She knows she can't get rid of him outright because the fan backlash would be too great.So this is the next best thing she can do. And CBS just sits back on their collective asses and continues to allow this woman to treat the show's most popular character this way, for the simple reason, they don't have to worry about being accused of sexism for allowing her to do it. That plus MGG is just too nice of a guy to make any kind of stink about the way his character has been treated these past couple of seasons.

[smoker]

It's "Daphne", by the way, smoker.

 

It's true, thanks Daniel,  I wrote her name in Spanish ;P

[SSAHotchner]

Well, i really,really hope she wasn't told not to gain weight. But she obviously felt the pressure to stay thin even if no one told her anything that made her feel bad about herself. Think about it : she knew they couldn't write her pregnancy in - since another character on the show was pregnant already (Erica Messer said it would've been "over the top" if the 2 characters were pregnant at the same time) so she knew that she had to stay thin because her character JJ wasn't pregnant :(

 

I loved Jeanne and Alex Blake. She was treated like dirt by pretty much everyone (writers, the showrunner, FANS). There's nothing more disheartening than being made to feel like you're not wanted around. Everytime she was on screen i got the feeling she's not confident enough with herself.. like she was thinking "Am i not good enough to be here" if she really felt this way ... my heart is broken for her. She was more than good, the hatred she got from Prentiss  "fans" was completely undeserved.

 

omg JJ had ONE EPISODE centered around her in s10. Shame on her, really.

 

""Neither of those things have to do with jlh, who I like a little more every time I see her being trashed just because she took a job and tried to do that job.""

well, this is just wrong (in my opinion). I remember you writing something like you don't like JJ because of her fans...??? i don't understand your logic. JJ fans are nice anyway... you should see the "article" that was written by 1 jlh fan.. the title says "JLH brings CM back to its former glory" (sickening) The person who wrote this bs trashed Jeanne with the worst, most heart-wrenching things ever seen. But why? jlh put herself on the show after Jeanne left. The (few :( ..) people who loved Jeanne had all the right in the world to be angry at jlh..but no they weren't angry. jlh fans were angry at Jeanne (why?-we'll never know). jlh fans are trashing everyone (-AJ,Aisha,Jeanne,Paget,Kirsten,Shemar....)

AJ did NOT have to hide her pregnancy (I don't know what made you think that) and her pregnancy WAS written into the show. Just calm down and recognize that JLH became pregnant very early into the filming of season 10 and that's why we learned of her pregnancy first. AJ was not pregnant at the time. I recall thinking that JLH looked bad and that they dressed her so frumpily. Those suit jackets did not hide that she was big around the middle, and I thought at the time that she was just having difficulty losing the weight from her first pregnancy. I did not realize she was actually pregnant again until it was announced publicly, and then she no longer tried to cover her middle and it was soon written into the script that her character was pregnant. There is no information out there that AJ was trying to remain thin because her character could not be pregnant. I think she was too thin before she got pregnant. She did, as you said, look much healthier the first time around. Many shows have tried to hide the fact that an actress was pregnant when her character was not. It's never successful. Fortunately for AJ, she's on a show where it doesn't matter. Her family is not the focus of the show. 

[smoker]

Agree, and dont forget AJ said she had a bad time the first pregnancy because she was filming most of the entire time and she thought she was huge. So she being extraslim could be a personal choice.

[Guesswht]

she hid her belly because JLH was pregnant, AJ even said so herself http://thebigwakeupcall.com/a-j-cook-from-criminal-minds/

the way she said "yeah i'm pregnant too whatever" is so sad

It makes me sad that she thinks she's not as important as JLH & her kid

AJ did NOT have to hide her pregnancy (I don't know what made you think that) and her pregnancy WAS written into the show. Just calm down and recognize that JLH became pregnant very early into the filming of season 10 and that's why we learned of her pregnancy first. AJ was not pregnant at the time. I recall thinking that JLH looked bad and that they dressed her so frumpily. Those suit jackets did not hide that she was big around the middle, and I thought at the time that she was just having difficulty losing the weight from her first pregnancy. I did not realize she was actually pregnant again until it was announced publicly, and then she no longer tried to cover her middle and it was soon written into the script that her character was pregnant. There is no information out there that AJ was trying to remain thin because her character could not be pregnant. I think she was too thin before she got pregnant. She did, as you said, look much healthier the first time around. Many shows have tried to hide the fact that an actress was pregnant when her character was not. It's never successful. Fortunately for AJ, she's on a show where it doesn't matter. Her family is not the focus of the show. 

Exacly, JLH was big, but she's always big and frumpy - pregnant or not. She's been like this for ages. It really wouldn't have been that hard to hide her pregnancy, just make her sit behind a table and give her less screen time (they did that to AJ). She was huge when she came to the show, JLH has a lot bigger build than AJ to start with. AJ is so tiny (both in height and weight) someone her size starts showing sooner especially since it was a second pregnancy for her. i do think that 'she wasn't allowed to gain weight' this time, because JJ wasn't pregnant. At some point she was so pale, i guess she had morning sickness & fatigue, it would've been so much easier for her if they made JJ pregnant, but no they couldn't write her pregnancy into the show because jlh felt the need to make another kid only a few months (or weeks) after getting a job she was extremely lucky to get in the first place. But (i say this again) jlh was huge to begin with, it's not like kate callahan was a tiny woman at the start of the season, It wouldn't have been THAT hard to hide her pregnancy.

AJ HAD to hide her pregnancy -it's a FACT, but I'm over this. Done arguing over something that's getting nowhere. i feel like everything i say is just wrong. lol ..i think JJ's pregnancy storyline in s4 was adorable, she's adorable. I really wanted to see JJ with a baby bump in s10. i'm terrible.

 

Anyway, don't we have more important things to focus on? Shemar is leaving the show after 11 years, we don't know whether Morgan dies or not. 

[smoker]

We have been witness of a lot pregnancies lately and I think is great, even if sometimes it's too obvious and it's not written in,  I don't mind. Actress are human beings and I won't waste my time being picky about that. Although, some shows deal better with it than others, but is really there someone who couldn't enjoy a procedural just for that? come on! We have to overlook a lot of things: stupid, careless and horribly written things and sometimes there are broken legs (I don't remember what happened to MGG) which need to be included, and there are a lot of episodes to heal a gunshot in a leg while the guy who was stabbed several times heals to the next episode (timeline: 6 weeks?).

 

Once said that, Kate's clothes were horrible, and I don't know it for real if AJ Cook slimness is her own choice, but I hope so. By the way, JLH is heavier now, but she was really slim in her younger years and I don't care either. However, I do care producers, showrunners (or whoever got the power) and other viewers make actress feel bad physically and emotionally because of a pregnancy. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by smoker

[ForeverAlone]

AJ said she that SHE chose to hide her pregnancy at first, and she didn't go public with her pregnancy until March (and likely didn't tell the show much more before that), so about six weeks before they finished filming. So there probably wasn't a lot of time for the show to react and make JJ a big pregnancy storyline in any case. And she just didn't show a lot by the end of filming, so there was no real reason to go to extreme lengths to hide it or emphasize it. The writers COULD have gotten away with not writing it in at all, but they would have needed some sort of explanation to explain JJ's absence, since AJ gave birth right around the time they started filming season 11. So instead of coming up with some other reason, why not write in that JJ was pregnant with her second child as well? I would bet that AJ's slimness was her own choice. She is married to a fitness monster, and over the past few years, she herself got really into fitness. So it is not surprising that she didn't gain as much weight with her second pregnancy, and I have seen that in other women's pregnancies as well. 

[secnarf]

However, I do care producers, showrunners (or whoever got the power) and other viewers make actress feel bad physically and emotionally because of a pregnancy. 

Exactly. No matter who the actress is, nobody has any right to tell them that they shouldn't have become pregnant or that they don't deserve to be pregnant as much as somebody else.

 

Also, let's just keep in mind that none of us can know what any of the actresses involved, writers, showrunners or TPTB were thinking. If I had the time, my rant would be about how people - and I see this all the time, not specifically on this forum although we are not immune here - assume they know what other people are thinking/feeling, often without having a complete understanding of the situation, since the information necessary for this is not public. It's one thing to conjecture about how someone is thinking - "I think x person must feel bad when people insult them", but it's another thing to speak as if you are living inside a person's head and know exactly what they are thinking/feeling for a fact. You can't know what I'm thinking/feeling unless I tell you, and you also shouldn't assume I am inside your head and know what you're thinking/feeling if you don't say so.

This isn't necessarily prompted from the discussion on this topic - a real-life incident yesterday (that has nothing to do with TV or actors/actresses) is probably the bigger trigger for this mini-rant - but the idea can easily be applied here as well.

[ForeverAlone]

Considering the showrunner is Erica and she is a working mother, I can't see her shaming any of her actresses for getting pregnant. And we never had any indication she or anyone involved with the show did that. So I don't know where that speculation comes from. 

[smoker]

Considering the showrunner is Erica and she is a working mother, I can't see her shaming any of her actresses for getting pregnant. And we never had any indication she or anyone involved with the show did that. So I don't know where that speculation comes from. 

 

just in case, my comment wasn't specifically directed to CM showrunner, I was speaking in general terms.

[SSAHotchner]

Considering the showrunner is Erica and she is a working mother, I can't see her shaming any of her actresses for getting pregnant. And we never had any indication she or anyone involved with the show did that. So I don't know where that speculation comes from. 

No, there is NO evidence to support that speculation. While a network might want to hide a pregnancy (have the actress carry big bags, wear loose clothing, sit or stand behind objects) because it wouldn't fit the character, they would never tell an expectant mother not to gain weight. To do so would be unhealthy for the mother and the baby, and the network would be courting a law suit.  To think they would do so is delusional. And after all the flack CBS got when they fired AJ, they wouldn't put her in any kind of negative situation again. She is one of Erica's favorites and the whole cast and crew seem to genuinely care for each other. They would rejoice with AJ, not shame her. 

[MMC]

Apparently AJ Cook was in Greensboro North Carolina. A Morning Show the actress appeared on wrote a small article about her visit. They described her character JJ as an FBI GENIUS who's good with a gun. Now even though this doesn't exactly surprise me,it still pisses me off to no end.

Sorry I tried to post the link but was unsuccessful. For those of us who are members of the Bull pen, they have the link to the article over there.

By the way I want to make it clear I do not blame the actress for this. But you can bet that I do lay a good deal of the blame at the feet of Erica Messer and those writers.Because I contribute this blatant misconception to none other than their piss poor writing.

Edited April 3, 2016 by MMC

[JMO]

Moving past the intro MMC found so offensive, and on to the substance---AJC gave a very nice interview, and indicated that the season finale serves as a launching point for season 12--which is good news. So I guess that makes this an 'anti-vent/rant'.  

[MMC]

Granted that the actress's positive attitude is a good sign that the show will be renewed even though we know it isn't necessarily a done deal.I have also learned to be very leery about it when a CM cast member, no matter who it is, starts singing the praises of an up and coming story line. AJC isn't the first cast member to praise these writers for constantly coming up with fresh new idea. Although I'd sure as hell like to know what they are.

Edited April 4, 2016 by MMC

[autumnmountains]

I have also learned to be very leery about it when a CM cast member, no matter who it is, starts singing the praises of an up and coming story line. AJC isn't the first cast member to praise these writers for constantly coming up with fresh new idea. Although I'd sure as hell like to know what they are.

FBI Genius. . .really?!?!?! *raised eyebrows* I don't blame the actress either but. . .still. *shakes head*

Yeah, my attitude towards "the fresh new ideas" is, " I'll believe it when I see it." Cynical, I know.

[ForeverAlone]

I'd rather have fresh, new writers, because I have no faith in the current crop of writers and their "fresh ideas."

[MMC]

I'd rather have fresh, new writers, because I have no faith in the current crop of writers and their "fresh ideas.

Unfortunately there is probably just as much chance of someone on here getting a marriage proposal from MGG as there is CM getting new writers who actually knew how to write for a show that is suppose to be a psychological crime drama.

Edited April 4, 2016 by MMC

[Bookish Jen]

When it comes to CM, the actors and writers are working stiffs just like us. Certainly, they are better paid and more famous than most of us regular Jacks and Janes, but acting and writing are jobs. I'm not an actor by any means, but I am a writer. The closest I've come to writing a script is when I wrote radio commercials for a local radio program many year ago. However, I have spent many time in the trenches as a journalist, copywriter, tech writer and research writer. I've also done quite a bit of proofreading and copy editing in my time, too.

 

Sure, I've interviewed some really cool people and covered some amazing topics but a lot of blood, sweat and tears went into writing articles, various copy, corporate communications and technical information/instruction. It's not always a picnic.

 

However, because writing and acting are seen as "creative" they are often seen as "fun" and not to be taken as seriously as other professions. This could be why the writing for CM has been so poor lately. "It's just a script; it's not like you're finding a cure for cancer. As for you actors, just look nice and say the lines. Okay?"

 

But it's not okay. I want writers who can actually write nuanced and intelligent scripts that challenge our CM cast in their various characterizations. As a CM fan and as an intelligent and educated woman, I want CM episodes to challenge me as a viewer. As I believe I might have mentioned before, CM cannot crap on a cone and expect me to call it ice cream."

 

I lay most of CM's piss poor output the past few seasons on MESSer's shoulders and the corporate overloads who thought she was worthy of running this show. Her script writing is subpar, she seems to rely on the inane comments left on various social media way too much, and gives short shrift to any character she can't relate to like Reid and Hotch. It is truly maddening.

 

Heck, hire me to run CM and I'll do my best to get it back on track. I'll seek out better writers and won't rely so much on CM-related social media. I'll sit down with the CM cast, both individually and as a collective whole to get their perspectives on their characters and the actual show. I don't ask for much, just a decent paycheck and weekly back rubs from Matthew.

 

...and I'll even bring in my sugar mint cookies.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Bookish Jen

[SSAHotchner]

I'd rather have fresh, new writers, because I have no faith in the current crop of writers and their "fresh ideas."

AMEN!

[SSAHotchner]

However, because writing and acting are seen as "creative" they are often seen as "fun" and not to be taken as seriously as other professions. This could be why the writing for CM has been so poor lately. "It's just a script; it's not like you're finding a cure for cancer. As for you actors, just look nice and say the lines. Okay?"

 

This makes me think of Seinfeld when Jerry and George were writing the pilot for their sitcom. 

 

Jerry: "Since when are you a writer?"

George: "What writer? It's a sitcom." 

 

And then when George tried to impress a woman in a bar with the fact that he was writing a pilot for NBC and she busts out laughing and says to her friend, "This guy's writing A SITCOM!!" 

 

But the fact remains that it's the writing that has killed CM, along with EM at the helm, as you said. 

 

My husband and I have been watching and enjoying Ed Bernero's international crime show "Crossing Lines." The writing is much better (still some flaws) and it's visually quite interesting between some effects and all the European locations. But it still can't hold a candle to CM in its glory days. 

[Old Dog]

I agree about Crossing Lines - it made me remember what it was like to sit on the edge of my seat and be actually shocked by the drama. CM these days is either predictable, badly rehashed or soapified and it is down to the writers and Messer. Still, reading the slew of inane comments on the forums and social media I guess they are reaching the audience they decided to target. Well and truly dumbed down. I am bracing for the Rossi/ ex-wife/daughter nonsense coming up. This season has been a disappointment - I am hanging on literally by my fingertips for Matthew.

[Bookish Jen]

Oh, bummer. I just checked my library system to see if they have Crossing Lines on DVD and they don't. Excuse me while I pout.

[thewhiteowl]

I watched it on Netflix, the first couple of seasons and they were pretty good.

[SSAHotchner]

Yes, we're watching Crossing Lines on Netflix streaming. They don't have DVDs.

[secnarf]

 

Edit: This chart

Kate is the new star. JJ Hotch, and Rossi went up, while everyone else went down. The characters percentages are even-ish, but that doesn't mean good since season 10 was pretty awful. 

I actually think this is the most interesting and telling graph - it visually shows what we have been saying all along, that the characters used to be individuals and have distinct personalities and roles within the team (and word count seemed strongly reflective of the actors' pay grades), but now they're all more or less interchangeable.

Also interesting that Rossi and Reid are the only two characters that appear to have a consistent number of words per season across all seasons.